<html><body>
<p>In a shiur which dealt with many issues related to fishing, one issue was whether someone could go fishing in an area where someone else had previously laid a baited trap for [the same type of] fish. As per RYR (AIUH), Rabbeinu Meir (father of Rabbeinu Tam) held that there was an issue of hasagas g'vul, while Rabbeinu Tam didn't see any problem, as fish are hefqeir, but the Q'tzos haChoshen tried to demonstrate that the issue was actual g'zeilah because an animal can be acquired via [g'ram] m'shichah or hagbahah by attracting it to food. What bothered me about the paradigm cases of the Q'tzos was that the animal in question (e.g. re hagbahah, an elephant) was visible both to the maqneh and to others who theoretically could be qoneh it -- fish in a body of water (or, for that matter, the baited trap of the previous fisherman) may not be visible, so how is fisherman Z'vulun supposed to know that someone else is already being qoneh the object of Z'vulun's activities? Moreover, even if we assume that man has authority over land (even, say, a sea-like r'shus, at least l'gabei hilchos Shabbos, like a desert) such that he can be qoneh animals neither he nor others can currently see, does this apply to the seas or to the heavens? Thanks. <br>
<br>
Gut Voch and all the best from<br>
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager<br>
</body></html>