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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>From: R' Akiva Miller <A
href="mailto:kennethgmiller@juno.com">kennethgmiller@juno.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>RAM: >>In the thread "proofs of G-d", we were discussing the
scenario that some gedolim posit a linkage, that a specific tragedy was caused
by a specific failing, and that they do this in order to inspire people to do
teshuva, even though those gedolim are not neviim, and cannot say for a *fact*
that this failing caused that tragedy.<<</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>TK: I don't think that any rav should say there is a link
unless he really believes there is a link, just to "inspire people to do
teshuva." Of course he may believe there is a link and he may be
mistaken, even horribly mistaken -- and others may argue vehemently against
linking tragedy X with sin Y -- but if he genuinely believes there is a link
then you can't say he's telling a "lie." A mistake or misinterpretation is
not a "lie."
<DIV><BR><BR>>In this context, R' Ben Waxman wrote in that thread:<BR>>
There is an even bigger problem that my wife pointed out to<BR>> me: When
positing an cause and effect when in fact no one<BR>> really knows the cause,
the people who are motivated to repent<BR>> will basing their avodat Hashem
based on a fable, and maybe<BR>> even on a lie. Do we really want that?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: No we don't want people to base their avodas Hashem on fables and
lies.<BR><BR>RAM: >>At this time of year, it is common for American
Christian families to teach their children a particular such "fable and lie", in
order to motivate those children to good behavior. This is so widespread, in
fact, that it is a rite of passage when those children come to learn the truth
of this fiction.<BR><BR>For many years, I was particularly proud that all of the
Midrashim, legends, and stories which we tell our children are true. And even if
an occasional story might appear with different details in different versions,
the main thrust is generally accepted as genuine. Torah Truth has no need for
fiction.<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: I had a long debate/discussion with a giyores about this some
years ago. She said that our telling children that Eliyahu Hanavi comes to
every house on Pesach was no different than telling kids about Santa Claus or
the tooth fairy. My contention is that the people who tell their kids
about Eliyahu Hanavi really believe themselves that he comes, and if they don't
believe it they shouldn't say it, or they should couch in general terms like,
"There is a /tradition/ that Eliyahu Hanavi comes to every house." Of
course it is actually possible that he really does come to every Jewish
home -- he is presumably at this time an incorporeal being, no longer
subject to the constraints of space and time. At any rate no parents are
dressing up as Eliyahu Hanavi and walking in the door when the door is opened
for Shfoch Chamascha. If parents did dress up as Eliyahu Hanavi and
let the kids think they really did see Eliyahu Hanavi walk in their door, they
/would/ be perpetrating a lie, but no one has such a minhag.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As for other midrashim: 1. many people believe all or most midrashim really
are true so they are not "lying" when they teach them to their kids</DIV>
<DIV>2. I myself try to add, "That's a midrash" when I tell a story,
distinguishing it from "That's in the Chumash" -- and when they are old enough
to understand the distinction, I tell my kids that not every midrash is
necessarily literally true, but every midrash has an important lesson to
convey.<BR><BR>RAM: >>And then, one Yom Kippur, during Ayleh
Ezk'rah, I chanced upon a comment by ArtScroll. The same who is so often derided
on these pages for taking a sanitized version of history, and passing it off as
true. And even Rabbi Scroll had to admit:<BR><BR>> that while all ten of
these righteous men were murdered by the<BR>> Romans, their executions did
not take place simultaneously, as<BR>> described here, nor could they have,
since two of the ten did<BR>> not even live in the same generation as the
other eight.<BR>> ...<BR>> The liturgical accounts of the martyrdom were
not meant as<BR>> historical records, but as dramatic accounts of the story,
in<BR>> order to evoke feelings of loss and repentance on the part of<BR>>
the congregation.<BR><BR>So it's not just the Christians. We too have fables,
fictions, and lies. Perhaps it is only this one solitary example. But one is not
zero.<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: All ten of the asara harugei malchus were actual historic figures
who really were martyred by the Romans. Why does the fact that a
poem puts them all together constitute in your mind a "fable, fiction and
lie"? I just don't see it that way at all.<BR><BR>RAM: >>My
heart is still not fully healed from the pain of this disillusionment. And I
apologize if this post has disillusioned any others. <<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: Forgive me for saying this but you are much too sensitive.
Your standards of absolute honesty are also impossible for anyone to meet.
Poetry is not history but in this case it is most definitely based on
history. Plus I would not be surprised if the payetan who put all ten
martyrs together actually thought they did live at the same time -- they
didn't live so far apart from each other, after all. He wasn't a
historian, either. Only historical research in the last hundred years or
so has really clarified exactly who lived where and when, 2000 years
ago. What if 500 years from now someone thought the Besht and the
Chofetz Chaim lived at the same time and wrote a story about them, say, talking
to each other? Would that be a "lie"? Would it invalidate everything
the Besht and the CC taught? Would a writer taking some liberty
with the facts -- because of his own ignorance, or for literary reasons --
would that turn historical personages into mere legends, as if they had never
lived? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>>> To repeat [RBW's] question:<BR>> the people who are
motivated to repent will basing their avodat<BR>> Hashem based on a fable,
and maybe even on a lie. Do we really<BR>> want that?<BR><BR>RAM: My
gut reaction is to scream, "No! It is too dangerous! How will they react when
the lie is discovered!" But that consideration does not seem to have bothered
those who chose to include Ayleh Ezk'rah in the
machzor.<<<BR><BR>TK: And again, I think you are being too
sensitive. Eilah Ezkarah is not a "lie." Do the notes to the
A/S machzor say that they never lived and were never persecuted and were never
killed by the Romans? No it does not. I think the A/S is to be
commended for acting like adults and not trying to fudge the fact that this poem
is just that -- a literary device. BASED ON A TRUE STORY -- or actually,
ten true and tragic stories.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============</B></FONT></DIV></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the <A title="http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001" href="http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001" target="_blank">hottest products</A> and <A title="http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002" href="http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002" target="_blank">top money wasters</A> of 2007.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>