On Nov 20, 2007 1:31 PM, Daniel Eidensohn <<a href="mailto:yadmoshe@012.net.il">yadmoshe@012.net.il</a>> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">R' Eli Turkel wrote:<br>> <<Bottom line: I think Judaism, Torah, and religion in general would<br>> be better off admitting that we really do not understand how God works<br>> rather than parading around our speculations about God and claiming
<br>> them as Dogma. There is a certain hubris from people that claim God<br>> wants THIS or God wants THAT. How do they know? Did they receive a<br>> prophecy? I can quote Torah or Nevi'im and say that God has expressed
<br>> Himself in a givne verse as demanding X but I cannot say for sure that<br>> given thecomplexity of a particular situation that God wants any<br>> specific action. >><br>><br>> This is in essence the approach of RYBS . He was a philosopher and so
<br>> had the same problems. However, living in Israel,<br>> ROY, R. Schach etc all know the reasons for every tragedy and<br>> publically present a very simplistic picture.<br>><br>><br></div>You are creating an false dichotomy between those who claim to know the
<br>reason for a calamity and those who don't make such claims or have<br>doubts about their assertions. There is in fact a religious obligation<br>to attribute suffering to specific shortcomings - as noted in the<br>
sources below. In other words it is a recognized technique for teshuva<br>to make causal links between suffering and sin. The question is whether<br>the link is correct and the degree that people feel confident that they
<br>have identified the causal relationship. In addition how much<br>uncertainty should a leader admit for the technique to work.<br><br>Daniel Eidensohn<br></blockquote><div><br> </div><div>WADR it is one thing to attribute one's Own sufferings to one's own sin.
<br>It is quite another to attribute suffering to YENNEM"s sin. The holocaust was due to the shortcoming of those xxx [fill in the blank] Some Ashkenazim blamed Sephardim for their lifestyle as contributing to the geirush and then had to eat humble pie when tach vatat occured.
<br><br>A navi can do this of course. Because they say the Word of Hashem. Other people are engaging in a practice tantamount to SAYANG they have actually HEARD the WORD. This is imho humbris plain and simple, it actaully borders on claiming a definite knowledge of what God is saying.
<br><br><br>
Remember: <br>
The Kohein Gadol had to first "humble" [humiliate?] himself by saying
FIRST hatasi avisu pashati ani uveisi BEFORE he said hat'u pash'u avu
amcha beis Yisroel. I wish more rabbanim would follow that paradigm...
<br><br>A real Tzaddik would say, my community is suffering due to MY OWN SHORTCOMINGS!<br>Rav Schwab said simlar things about he lack of funds for his Yeshiva nad persoanlly took the blame for late paychecks to his teachers. Rav Schwab was an anav!
<br></div></div><br>When an Israeli Chief Rabbis start saying, woe unto us that I erred, I will start listening.<br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br><a href="mailto:RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com">RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
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