<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 9, 2007 1:51 PM, Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Wed, November 7, 2007 10:12 am, Richard Wolpoe wrote:<br><br>In short, your opening question is that there is ample proof the<br>system isn't algorithmic, </blockquote><div><br>Diclaimer I DO NOT insist pesak is algorithmic. I am on record as saying otherwise although on this thread i have not taken ANY side whatseover!
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">but since you insist it is, you're troubled.<br>You then confuse using a weighting system with anarchy.
</blockquote><div><br>WADR that is someone else. I think that if anything I was saying if one uses 2 matzos and not 3 you are guilty of anarchy after the pesak of the Bet Yosef. But I did not say that at all either, but that would be CLOSER to what I did say
<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>And yes, by including aggadic values in the heuristic,</blockquote><div><br>
I never said Aggadic values do not count. There are many minhaggim rooted in Aggadah. <br>The requirment to stand for Kiddush Levana is rooted in Aggadah. by extrapolation: the minhag to stand for Shiras Hayam and by extension 10 Dibros can be demonstrated to come from the same aggdah re: kabbalas p'nei Shechina. While the Rambam, Rema nd Rav objectg to making some passages "holier" than others etc. the minhag is firmly rooted in an aggedita in the Gemara - aisi.
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br><br>The concept of halakhah kebasra'i is often cited as the reason why the
<br>Bavli has more authority than the Y-mi. RRW would take this to mean<br>"Bavli trumps Y-mi".</blockquote><div><br>Look the Riof and Ri Migash say this. an dAFAIK so did R. Sa'dyah Gaon. I am not advocating this position, I am only the messnger don't shoot ME!
<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Which then is disproven by how Tosafos treat<br>mayim acharonim. And thus, RRW is left with a question.
</blockquote><div><br>I am not left with any question about mayyim ahcarhonim<br>I WOULD ask why are we still makpid on separarting meat and fish since this is similar to the mayyim ahcaronim issue [viz. Bavli medicinal requirements which were specifcally waved by the Ga'onim]
<br><br>If you hold Basrai "trumps" that is an objective system. Rema held that Basrai trumps. The URL Micha use dshowt that it is a machlokes betwee nAshk. and Seph. how to interpret basrai.<br><br>But the GRA re: 2 matzos rejected basrai and went back to Talmud . Why?
<br><br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br><br>My take: Y-mi pesaqim carry less weight than Bavli, so that if all
<br>else were equal, Bavli would "win". The weight given this rule in<br>Ashkenaz is far far lower than that given in Sepharad.</blockquote><div><br>[see above about Rif and Ri Migash & Bavli vs. Yerushalmi]
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br><br>However, you just can't pull out the significance of things willy<br>
nilly. It's not simply personal opinion. There are textual rules that<br>have textual weights,</blockquote><div>But whose rules are we playing by<br><br>If BY overrules HIS rule to pasken like Rambam/Rif and neverthless paskens THREE matzos, how can the GRA ignore the BY's exception?
<br><br>The Kaf hachayyim - No ashkenazi! - mentions<br><ol><li>The Shleha says this is the best way to be yotzei lechal hadi'os</li><li>The GRa rules otherwise</li><li>he then says but most Acharonim reject the GRA here nayway!
</li></ol>I would GUESS that the aforementioned BY, Sehlah, and Kaf hachayyim were aware of the Rambam'GRA conern that lechem oni would be compromised and paskened tht lechem mishnah trumps lecehm oni anyway<br><br>For the BY and the Kaf hachayyim it was about the nubmers of poskim not the better read of the Gmara
<br><br>I don't know about the Shelah, he obviously felt that you WERE yotzei lechem oni with 3 anyway - or at least that is the kaf Hachayyim's read of the Shelah<br><br><br> <br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
there are mimetic histories of how seriously<br>various issues have been treated, and there is the desire to actually<br>help people become yereim usheleimim. </blockquote><div><br>How does the GRA over-ruling the BY and the Rema increase shleimus! Adreabbah imho it can only create more mistrust in the process.
<br><br>When AhS said Rashba had beter sevar but went with Rosh/Tur re: al nekkiyus Yaddayim he was putting the process over his opinion. WADR the GRA put his opinoin OVER the process<br>and sought to repeal the asccepted p'sak of BOTH ashkenaz and Sepharard!
<br><br>had the GRA said: "You know I think the Rif/RAmbam read is better, but I edefer to the process of how Hlachah has eveolved" we would not be having this thread. Instead he attcks the Rosh'e read of the Sugya as 'wrong" I cannot think of a harsher way to say that the process must be flawe3d at least in this one case!
<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">(Such as chassidim looking for a<br>means to allow clapping on Shabbos along to a good hartzig niggun, or
<br>helping a couple become parents.)</blockquote><div><br>And C's say that a guitar on Shabbos inspires THEM! and since they are not choshesh for tikkujn Maneh what's the big deal!<br><br><br>How about those who allow goyyim play instruments on Shbbos to enhance the service.
<br><br>See the Tur 338 and 338 regarding hasma'as kol and using insru,ments ON SHABBOS for Hassan Kallah! This is caputre din the major seforim Tur, BY, Darchei Moshe etc. <br><br><br>AISI this systme is totally subjevctive. If Tsoafos says to ignore a Mishnah it is OK but if a C rabbi says to follow a Tur or a Rambam he is WRONG. HOW?
<br><br>FWIW, Neither Rema [339 nor RMF [orach chaim pt. 2 #100] find the heter for dancing/clapping on the part of Tsoafos as good one. At Best it comes under either mutav sheyihyu shoeggeim or an apologetic for a minhag that is questionable.
<br> <br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br><br>SheTir'u baTov!<br>-micha<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all">
<br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br><a href="mailto:RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com">RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com</a><br>Please Visit: <br><a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>