<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/4/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Elazar M. Teitz</b> <<a href="mailto:remt@juno.com">remt@juno.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
The following dialogue took place between RRWolpoe and RZSero:<br><br>RRW: Kaddish after Aleinu [after shir Hakavod] could use its own thread.<br> The usual structure is<br> Kaddish Yehei Shlamah after Mikra<br> Kaddish Derabbnan after TSBP
<br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">[snip]<br><br>RRW: Aleinu and Shir Hakavod do not fit into any of the above
<br><br>RZS: They're both followed immediately by a pasuk ("Vehaya Hashem lemelech" and "Mi yemalel") precisely for this reason.<br><br> Aleinu does not require the adding of "Vehaya," since it already ends with the pasuk "Hashem yimloch l'olam va'ed." Shir Hakavod is also followed by the pasuk "L'cha Hashem hag'dulah," so that "Mi y'mallel" is not needed to justify kaddish. Obviously, then, these p'sukim are said for their content, and not for permitting kaddish.
<br><br> It would seem that it's the other way around: not that the p'sukim are added so that kaddish may be said,</blockquote><div><br>KAJ says neither 3 p'sukkim nor Kaddish after Hir Hakavod! see below!
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> but rather that kaddish is said because there are p'sukim.</blockquote><div>
<br>See below re: Al Tirah! <br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">EMT<br><br></blockquote></div><br>AISI the trigger is at least 3 p'esukkim [or maybe a complete kappitel!]
<br>Illustrations:<br><ol><li>Shir Hakavod has 3 2 lecha's and Mi Ymeallel</li><li>Aelinu has TWO at the end</li><li>BUT al tira has 3!<br></li></ol><div style="margin-left: 40px;"> Is this a co-incidence that these 3 come after aleinu
<br>Or<br>is it by design to trigger a kaddish!<br></div><br>Nevertheless, Syrian Sephardim and Frankfort do NOT say kaddish after Aleinu - yet Rema requires it anyway.<br><br>FWIW Many if not most Amreican Shuls say NO kaddish after shir hakavod and
go to shir shel yom and say Kaddish THEN [viz. at the end of Musaph].
KAJ says shir hakavod w/o any kaddish afterwords [and afaik no 3
pesukkim either!]<br><br>And FWIW on Shabbos KAJ [and iirc Nusach Sepharad] say Shir shel Yom after shacharis w/ a Kaddish yehei shelama afterwards<br><br>Clarification: I am NOT saying Ch'vSh that is is WRONG to say Kaddish after aleinu! I have done it hundreds if not thousands of times myself! Rather - what I AM saying is to me - based upon a consistent structure - the Syrian model makes BETTER sense logically.
I.E. kappitel, Kaddish THEN Aleinu for each of the 3 Tefillos.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br><a href="mailto:RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com">RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com</a><br>Please Visit: <br><a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>