<br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">David Riceman</b> <<a href="mailto:driceman@att.net">driceman@att.net</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Richard Wolpoe wrote:<br><br>> The Torah is not about SELF-PERFECTION but creating SOCIETAL<br>> perfection, i.e a mamlehces kohanim<br>So would you find that hypothetical survey convincing? Incidentally, if<br>that's the function of the Torah, wouldn't we be better off dismissing
<br>all failed Jews from the clan?<br><br>David Riceman<br></blockquote></div><br>In my own emotional being I DO dismiss meshumaddim and others who have renounced their Judaism. I do NOT dismiss "failed" jews who are merely mumar lete'avaon. BTW, I have ALWAYS felt this way, that any Jew while outside the pale is outside the pale regardless of this mamleches kohanim concept.
<br><br>And I can tell you ma'asim where rich people are told NOT to perfect themselvs but to be ba'alei tzedakkah instead in order to support the poor of the community. The idea of 10% of society as doing nothing but self-perfection is not a likely scenario in Judasim with apologies to any ba'lei Mussar who might feel otherwise. Certainly we all work on middos to a degree but self-perfection is not for he masses. Most of us have jobs to do first. And this is not about parnasso, but about filing the community's needs. Dcotors and hatzaala NEED to be ready to be mehallel Shabbos. The needs for piku'ach nefesh supersede the need for individual meditative contemplation! Thge whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
<br><br>So nu what does it mean: Yisroel af al pi Shechata - yisroel hu?<br>It means TO ME only thus, he needs NO GIYYUR to come back. Othwerwise his wine is stam Yenam, his kashrus is worthless etc. And As far as I am concenred in my hypothetical universe, a meshumad can buy your hametz for Pesach! Of course I would not pasken that way, but that is the way I EEL how it ought to be.
<br><br>And I feel that anyone seeking "God" can do it any way he feels [Rambam notwithstanding] that the Torah is all about society/community. See Rambam hilchos Mamrim 1:1 that the Beis Din haagadol is the ikkar Torash Sheb'al peh. There is not greater proof to me that Torah is about the societal insitutions as opposed to studying texts etc. Those institutions include the Beis Hamikdash, the Sanhedrin etc. it includes, shochetim, Soferim, poskim, Kohanim, levi'im etc. See Parshas Shoftetim -or for taht matter most of Devarim Arei Miklat are next to asseres hadibros. Torah was designed as a national "constitution" of a quasi-theocracy to be housed in Israel. And FWIW No Meshumad is eligilbe for any of those positions, and possibly is passul even after Tehsuva for many of the above.
<br clear="all"><br>Yisroel v'oraiso v'kudsha brich ahd hu. As far as I'm concerned. sitting on a dessert island with a Sefer is not Judaism. If a Gentile or a Martian discovered a library full of Torah and in isolation followed Judaism to me it is almost zero. A Beis din is required fro Giyyur, NOT a heartfelt commitment. If a Martian wanted to find God and remain in isolation I would suggest some contemplative sect where he could meditate yoma volayla. If he wanted to join a PEOPLE of God, then he MUst be Jewish. With the possible exception of Tibetan, I know of know PEOPLE or NATION that sees itself as a Godly People other than the Jewish People.
<br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br><a href="mailto:RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com">RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com</a><br>Please Visit: <br><a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>