On 10/19/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Arie Folger</b> <<a href="mailto:afolger@aishdas.org">afolger@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Friday, 19. October 2007 11.25:24 <a href="mailto:avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org">avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org</a> wrote:<br>> I guess I feel RHS is coming across not acknowledging other "kosher"<br>
> approaches - his way or the highway. Whether he intends to do that, I do<br>> not know, I have not verified this with him. I would say that we can<br>> quibble with the underlying premise in any given paragraph.
<br><br>This is common in literature, especially in books like MiPninei HoRav, for<br>there, RHS is trying to explain his master, it is not a Shu"t.<br><br>BTW, I am fascinated by your abilities to analyze this matter with such
<br>thoroughness</blockquote><div><br>Thank you<br> </div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">, but fear it will go nowhere.
</blockquote><div><br>I guess same can be said for learning kadashim and Taharot w/o a Mikdash. It's still Torah <g> <br><br> </div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Halakhah is not mathematics, and<br>posqim are not mechanics. Clearly, the GRA often overturned consensus, and it<br>doesn't always jibe with what we are used to see. Others do so more modestly<br>all the time.</blockquote>
<div><br>AHA! Story:<br>When I was in RIETS bm I once said it is clear to [based upon publications, etc]. that the GRIZ was a bigger Talmid Chochom than his Older Brother R. Moshe Soloveichik etc.<br><br>The answer:<br>"Just becasue R. Moshe Solo.. was a bigger anav does not mean he couldn't learn better than his more famous younger borther!"
<br><br>The over-arching mussar heskel:<br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">How much Piskei Halachah are accepted from G'dolim due to to their sheer stature or their FORCE Of PERSONALITY over and above the cogency of their arguments!
<br></div><br>E.G. A member of this list said that I have a igher threshold to prove my case becasue I am not as learned as so-and-so. I would answer, look at the issue and do not judge a book by its cover. Gadlus is not infalliblity! [this is aside from the "midget on the shoulder of giants model". If I can muster enough sources, my gadlus is irrelevant to the issue at hand, but the mare'h mekomos count].
<br><br>Furthermore. RSR Hirsch posits that Moseh Rabbeinu was davka k'vad lashon so as to PROVE we weer not swept away by a charismatic guru-type, but my the Word of HKBH Himself. I would suggest that this has changed. That BY and Rema won the day because they generall humbled themselves to earlier sources [see maggid Meisharim] while today the opposite is often the case. [ROY, kaf Hachayim etc might be exceptions since Sephardim still feel the obligation to prove their cases via siting sources.]
<br><br> </div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I would tend to believe the following: Halakhah - within bounds - clearly
<br>develops over time. </blockquote><div><br>Agreed. but how many right-wingers agree to this premise?</div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><br>Some people are very modest, on account of their less great stature, and hence<br>will not want to overturn consensus so quickly. Others, like the GRA, are so<br>great that they are bothered by some deviations that most of us don't feel.
<br>Being as great as they are, they are bold and quick to disregard some<br>concensus, and on account of their greatness, that is tolerated. </blockquote><div><br>Not problem R. Eliezer and Tanur achnai. But esakl did NOT follow R. Eliezer or R. Meir [for the most part] despite of or even BECAUSE of their very genius. {Beis Shammai might have even been more learned than Beis Hillel!}
<br><br>IOW in Talmudic times the bigger the genius the LESS likely he won any arguement against consensus E.G. halacha Ker. Akiva meichaveiro but NOT machaveirov!<br><br>Today the opposite is true. The most charismatic leaders who come out with the LEAST consensus seem to be the most popula - at least in some circles.
<br></div><br>The GRA is to be praised honestly speaking HIS mind. I ONLY question his followers for rejecting normative Halachic consensus in favor of charismatic geniii. I think this is a breach of Halachic Tradition. See AhSh on Al nekkiyus Yadyaim re: RAshba vs. Rosh/Tur as an example of what I mean.
<br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Finally,there are some little people who feel that they can act like the GRA did, and
<br>they overturn consensus, but no one (or almost no one) will listen. The<br>process of accepting ideas here is probably similar to the way RMF discribed<br>his growth into becomming the American posseq par excellence.</blockquote>
<div><br>I think a LOT of people find it "attractive" to see a novel radical view as a form of shtick. I know one guy who davka davens Nusach haGRA just to be "different" or special. Antoher one follows Nusach haRambam. I humbly suspect they are expressing their individuality rather than a well-researched shita.
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Also relevant is the kind of halakhic issue we are talking about. Having two<br>
matzot instead of three isn't as grave IMHO as blowing shofar on RH she'hal<br>beShabbat where unwarranted. Hence, you'll find a lot fewer people<br>entertaining pasqening like the RIF on shofar, but more about 2 matzot like
<br>the GRA.</blockquote><div><br>FWIW yated ne'eman recroded seveal debates on this Rif and RH matter a few years ago. Fascinating debate between Traditionalists and Textualists. And it is not so simple to completely be mevateil a Mitzvas Asseh d'oraisso givein
<br><ol><li>we ARE beki'im in the kevius - and Day 2 could be seen as les than it used to be</li><li>There is a loophole in Shas exploited by the Rif himself. and the Hinuch says "take your pick" whom to follow.
<br></li></ol></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">In conlusion, I do not believe that we can find a single overarching principle
<br>that explains all ma'hloqot in halakhah.</blockquote><div><br>Agreed. My problem is with indiivduals that have no consistency. <br>IOW I get why the GRA ssaid what he said and I get why the Rema said what he said
<br>What I do NOT get is the eclectic nature of how people implement this today [disclaimer, even if you follow Shita X there is room for exceptions...] <br><br><br>My first Sahbbos In Teaneck I asked RDEK <br>Q: How come we omit here Baruch hashem L'olamon weeknights and SAY v'shamrua on Friday Nights?
<br>A : What do you want from Me? I am stuck with these minhaggim!<br><br>IOW he did not defend the eclectic nature of the his own shul's minhaggim which evolved willy nilly w/o a shita. Bt he did live with them.<br><br>
Given: <br><blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote"><font class="text">"An unexamined life is not worth living." -</font><br>
<font class="text"> -- <b>Socrates</b></font>
</blockquote><br>Might we say something like:<br><blockquote>An unexamined Minhag is not worth impmlementing?<br>or an unexamined p'sak is not worth following? <br></blockquote><br><br>To quote my friend Rabbi Ben Hecht:
<br><blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">Where has all the philosophy gone?<br></blockquote>To paraphrase"<br><blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
Where has all the drisha vachakira gone?<br></blockquote><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">--<br>Arie Folger<br><a href="http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com">
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com</a><br>_______________________________________________<br></blockquote></div><br>BY, Rema and Kitzur [by and large] submitted their decisions to a hypothetical BD. ROY follows Maran BY. Ben Ish Hay implements as much ARIZAL as the populace can handle.
<br clear="all">Kaf hachayim quote as many sources as he can [ROY, too]<br><br>OTOH, MB seems to have a multi-faceted shita re: z'manei hayyom that leave me confused. He does not seem to follow strictly GRA nor Magen AVraham nor Rabbeinu Tam nor Levush. See what I mean?
<br> <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br><a href="mailto:RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com">RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com</a><br>Please Visit: <br><a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>