<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/11/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Dov Kay</b> <<a href="mailto:dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk
</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><br>I am also no savant of Kabbalah. However, I understand that minhag Chabad<br>and the p'sak of the Ben Ish Chai is that latecomers, r'l, do not skip the 4<br>levels even in order to daven the Amidah b'tzibbur.
<br><br>With regard to Selichos, RMF in IG permitted an early recitation (ie before<br>chatzos, but preferably at 1/3 of the night), but only as a horaas shaah for<br>one year (his words) and on the basis that an announcement be made to that
<br>effect. I don't think you can bring a proof from YK, as this is clearly a<br>sui generis eis ratzon.<br><br>Kol tuv<br>Dov Kay<br></blockquote></div><br>ein hachi nami!<br>But the Kabbalist giving the Shiur I cited above - Rav Mordechai Aderet - noted that despite this kabblistic position, The Halacha in the Shulchan Aruch is otherwise - And he noted that this is the POWER OF THE TZIBBUR to over-ride these Kablistic considerations.
<br><br>Point? if you are into the Kabblistic model go for it, but if not the POWER OF THE TZIBBUR is over-riding. And It makes sens to me to use this power for saying selichos in a non-kabblistic manner.<br><br>Mema nafsach. If you are following Halachah - as codified in shulchan aruch - then be consistent and rule that the power of the Tzibbur is uber alles. If you are a mekubal follow THAT model
<br><br>The Sha'arei TEshuva's objection to Selichos before Midnight is al pi Nistar. Fine for those who are consistently dooing things al pi nistar go for it.<br><br>But now we have a Mishmash! When it comes to the matter of coming late we follow HALALCHA and NOT Kabbalah. OTOH for Selichos we are chosheisfor Kabbalah.
<br><br>WHY is there this inconsistency? <br> <br>---------------------------------------<br><div style="direction: ltr;">My understanding is that the early morning
(from chatzos to daylight) is an "ays ratzon". And that the night
before chatzos is emphatically NOT an ays ratzon. Except for YK, which
is ENTIRELY an ays ratzon.<br><br>> 2. Furthermore why not EXTEND the exception for YK throughout the<br></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><span>> Selichos season - given that our Selichos are structured on the YK > model to begin with?
<br><br></span></div>Because
the nature of the universe is not subject to our whim or convention. If
the night is not already an ays ratzon, our decision to consider it so
won't change anything.<br><br>Just my guess...<br><br>Akiva Miller<br><br>----------------------------------<br><br>Dirshu Hashem behimatzo - aiui -either applies to all of 10 Days of Teshuva or perhaps from the beginning of Ellul. [see kitzur SA for example] I realize that YK is special but I see no reason to go fuandamental on this one issue when there is ZERO
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Halachic </span>sources to say that it is assur to see 13 Middos at night.
<br><br>Remember that RMF actually permitted this practice as a "sha's hadechak" I would say that improved kavann or other logistic difficulties would IMHO serve as a legitimate reason to do this! <br><br>Furthermore the structure of Selichos is all about an extened YK on many levels. Worth a thread on its own. Selichos of Erev RH for exmaple includes the pizmon of Shacharis of YK. Erev RH is in itself the biggest of the YK K'tanim that precede many Roshei Chadashim.
<br><br>FWIW At Ner Yisrael Toronto where I was gabbai - I was told that the Shatz was to say 13 Middos on RH when it falls on Sahbbos. Most communities only do so on YK itself, but we see the possiblity of extending that aspect to RH .
<br><br>-- <br>Kesiva vaChasima Tova<br>Best Wishes for 5768,<br><a href="mailto:RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com</a><br>Please Visit:
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