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<DIV>R Josh Backon,</DIV>
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<DIV>Thank you for your list of sources. Bli neder I will check many of them, although you gave me an assignement that will take some time to complete. Like I said in my original email, I am not looking for psak halachah, there are fortunately many sources for that. I am just looking to stimulate discussion regarding some of the variables that need to be considered when determing the sakanas nefashos issue during wartime. However, some comments to respond to your e-mail are i think in order, because I can't help it, so please forgive me.</DIV>
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<DIV>You wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV>With regard to training: there would be differences between the situation in Israel (where people in basic<BR>training could be suddenly sent to do guard duty in a sensitive area) vs. the situation in the USA where<BR>this would never occur.</DIV>
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<DIV>SW</DIV>
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<DIV>Yes, there are certainly differences between the situations in the two countries, and I think that these should be explored. You are also correct that soldiers in Basic training in the US are extremely unlikely to be sent anywhere where sakanah is an issue. Basic training BTW is what every soldier goes through when he/she first enters the military just to learn the basics. However, my questions refer not so much to basic training , but to the training that units do on a constant basis to stay ready for action to fulfill the particualr function of that unit. This is constantly being done by both active duty and reserve units. In these scenarios, the difference between the two armies is blurred significantly. Surely you don't think that the chances of a US Army unit being sent into quick unexpected action (especially a medical unit like my own) is not significant. Just read the newspapers about reserve deployments, both for natural disas
ters in the US and for deployment to Iraq, Afganistan etc... The overwhelming majority of the US army reserves have been used extensively over the last five or so years, and it shows no sign of letting up anytime soon.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dr Backon:</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Without reading the sefarim in depth, it would be foolish to even begin to delineate what's muttar and what's<BR>assur. You simply have to read the above sefarim to get a notion of what's involved. You also might want<BR>to contact Orthodox military chaplains (e.g. Col. Alan Greenspan) who would be more attuned to the<BR>specific problems in the US military.</DIV>
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<DIV>SW:</DIV>
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<DIV>Agreed, please do not give psak halacha, let's just discuss some of the important variables. I'm interested to see if people have some ideas that will help me think abouth this topic. BTW, the orthodox military chaplains are very helpful and knowledgable, and are a great resource. Rav Gedaliah Dov Schwartz Shlita of Chicago IL is also one of the foremost authorities on this topic, and he makes himself available to US religious soldiers for these types of issues. He is wonderfully helpful, and even speaking with him he likes to brag about "my soldiers".</DIV>
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<DIV>R Yisrael Meidad writes:</DIV>
<DIV><BR>There must be a point where one should not do things during training on<BR>shabbos because the environment is not truly a sakkanah" I need ask: at what<BR>time is this training taking place? There is a difference when done during<BR>war but not on or near an actual battlefield or whether far away from any<BR>field of operations which, I would presume, that it should not be done on<BR>the Shabbat.</DIV>
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<DIV>SW:</DIV>
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<DIV>I agree totally. It is a challenge to figure out exactly where this point is. Some decisions are easy and clearly do not fall into the category of sakanas nefashos. I wonder if I could come up with a scenarion where chillul shabbos would be justified in a training situation. Clearly, the distinction between training and wartime is not so clear. The situation that I am dealing with is in a non-Jewish army, and the war is taking place in Iraq and Afghanistan. Clearly, in "theater" I don't think there is a shaalah at all. Carrying weapons, doing whatever needs to be done is clearly OK. Also, in a training environment on a base in the US, when it is routine training that has nothing to do with the war directly, I think that chillul shabbos would be very hard to justify, only with my job as a physician some of those duties might be permissable but this has nothing to do with wartime directly. However, it gets a little
fuzzy when you think of a unit that is training and getting ready to deploy to Iraq or another hot zone. (Unfortunately, some may argue that almost all training in the US army today might fall under this category, given the current situation) There the training is crucial, and one may argue that at least some of what is being done can be considered sakanas nefashos based on the argument that every detail of the training has direct impact on the safety of the troops (at least some of whom are Jewish, and even if not I am assuming that chillul shabbos to save a goy's life is justifiable as well. If you disagree with this premise, then the discussion would have to be on diferent terms altogether. However, virtually every posek I have spoken to has strongly agreed with this assumption. For several reasons 1) similar to the hetter that R Moshe ZTL wrote for a doctor to save a goy's life on shabbos because of sakanas nefashos for Klal Yisrael 2) because a soldier
that treats soldiers preferentially based on religion would cause a breakdown in troop moral that would endanger everyone, including the soldier himself directly, vehamaven yaven. 3) presumably, this is necessary for the safety of the country that we are defending, in which reside numerous Jews).</DIV>
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<DIV>So the question returns, when can chillul shabbos be justified in a training environment? <BR></DIV>
<DIV>R Meidad:</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Since I feel that you are talking about actual wartime, in a Jewish army<BR>like in Israel, obviously there would be a dialogue between the "chaplain"<BR>and the relevant officers to judge what is really necessary to be done even<BR>on the Shabbat to keep troops ready or prepared for an immediate operation.<BR>In my experience up near Tzur in 1985, we carried weapons constantly,<BR>day/night. Shabbat/chol/, bathroom/kitchen, even when not "on duty" although<BR>turning lights off/on, storeroom duty and other related activities were not<BR>done on the Shabbat except for the specific units who went out on patrol.<BR><BR>Once you get into it, it becomes easy to understand and follow.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>SW</DIV>
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<DIV>I am speaking about actual wartime, but not in a Jewish Army. In the US army, there will be no such discussion about what might be OK on shabbos. The soldier simply needs to fugire out how to comply with his orders. Your experience in Lebanon ion 1985 was clearly in a "hot zone", and I don't think anyone would disagree that carrying weapons constantly was appropriate. In such scenarios, it is easy to understand.</DIV>
<DIV>Shaul Weinreb</DIV></DIV></DIV></body></html>