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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I was inclined to think that sovar vekibbel means that
we have altered the threshold that divides Shogeg from Oness. It means that the
circumstances that we usually utilise to determine Shogeg or Oness are not
applied here. The assumption is that these actions can not be construed by BD
as they would usually, because they agreed to enter an unusual arena.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>But, if we should show that at the jousting tournament
the intent was not to knock his opponent but to kill him, there would be full
compensation to pay. We are not entertaining the prospect of boxing matches
where the express purpose is to injure the opponent. This is Assur beyond
doubt. No amount of agreement between the sparring partners can permit one to
raise a hand in order to injure another. But those who engage in wrestling
matches where the risks are greater but the intent is not to injure, sovar
vekibbel would raise the bar of Oness.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Now, if this is true, then determining shogeg or mezid
which is the question of Sanhedrin 77b, should also be altered. The burden of
proof to prove intent should be much greater.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Savar vekibbel is a
legitimate consideration in dinei mamonot, where the plaintiff is seeking
financial compensation for his injury; if he willingly accepted the risk, then
he consented to the injury and is not entitled to be paid for it. The
same would presumably apply if he was killed and his estate sued for financial
compensation for his death. But in the second case we are not dealing
with dinei mamonot; nobody is asking for financial compensation. Instead
we're dealing with the crime of manslaughter, and for that purpose the victim's
assumption of risk is irrelevant: even if a person explicitly consents to be
killed, that does not excuse the killer from criminal culpability.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> I believe Rabbenu Tam
suggests that those chaps who engage in jousting <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> matches as a form of
entertaining the groom and bride, are not able to <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> claim financial
compensation for damages suffered in those duels, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> since they have
understood the dangers and agreed to them. SoVar VeKibbel.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> Is this not an argument
that should equally apply to the game of <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> throwing a stone
against a wall where the players try to catch and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> throw the stone back or
something like that? See Rashi Sanhedrin 77b. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> However in this case,
if someone gets killed, there may be a Golus <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> sentence imposed or
possibly it may be more than a Shogeg in which <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> case Golus will not
grant immunity and he must employ his own protection.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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