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<DIV>In a message dated 4/4/2007 9:38:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>> RMB
wrote:<BR>> >> Lomdus is Torah lishmah,<BR>> knowledge for the
sake of knowing Retzon haBorei. It has no visible <BR>> impact on the
middos ....<<</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wrote: >></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR>>> I think this is a subtle denigration of talmidei
chachamim in general <BR>-- saying that their midos are no better than
anyone else's and that <BR>earning Torah doesn't improve their
midos. <<</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RDE then wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR>>>RMB's comments are obviously true to anyone who <BR>has
spent time in yeshiva. I am surprised that Rav Bulman's daughter <BR>never
heard her father make identical statements. <<</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>>></DIV>
<DIV>When RMB said that Torah learning "has no visible impact on the
middos" I thought he was referring to Torah leaders, poskim, rabbanim, roshei
yeshiva and 'gedolim.' I thought he was making a subtly denigrating
comment about those known collectively as "the gedolim" which is why I responded
negatively.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If he was saying that the average yeshiva bochur is not necessarily a
paragon of midos then he is correct. And it is true that my father
bemoaned the lack of midos of too many yeshiva guys.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But we could then quibble about whether a person who does not let the Torah
"get under his skin" and transform him is /really/ learning Torah lishma?
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Or to put it the other way, is it /really/ possible that a person could
learn Torah day and night truly lishma -- not for a rich father in law, not
for esteem and kovod, but just lishma -- and his midos would be
unaffected?! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If he remains a coarse and rough fellow after spending days and years in
yeshiva I would truly question whether he was learning Torah at all, let alone
"lishma." I do believe that the Torah itself does contain within it
the tools to transform and refine character, and would look askance
at someone who would say that a person who spent ten years studying
advanced secular subjects and a person who spent ten years studying Torah would,
on the average, be indistinguishable from each other at the end of that
time.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><B><BR></B><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============</B></FONT></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">See what's free at <A title="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503" href="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503" target="_blank">AOL.com</A>. </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>