<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Apr 1, 2007, at 8:20 AM, <A href="mailto:avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org">avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org</A> wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">RMS wrote in part:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">the<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>incorporation of piyutim into the siddur was never<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>a halachic<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">process<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>- it was far more minhag..</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">However, you conflate two<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>separate issues.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Do the 13 ikkarim <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">summarize in some sense<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>important Jewish ideas - yes.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Saying them in <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">yigdal is a way<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>of stating them.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Does that mean that they have <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">halachic<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>status, that not believing them<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>has halachic consequences? <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">That is quite a leap - and would need much further proof.....</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Do<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>the ideas of any piyut incorporated into a standard siddur or<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">machzor now have legal status that rejecting them is now<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>problematic</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>RSB<BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">If the above is true, please explain Ramban's ruling that the recitation of <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Krias Shma is a rabbinic mitzvah while the recitation of Emes vYatziv is a<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Torah<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>mitzvah. Please explain the Nussach HaBrachos of any Birkas HaMitzvah or<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">the<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Mussaf of any YT, especially RH and YK. Malchuyos, Zicronos and Shofaros<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">are<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>hardly just "ideas or any piyut incorporated into a standard Siddur or<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Machzor."<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>They represent statements of faith.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>RSB, IMHO, mixes up several different issues - the ability of hazal to be metaken tefillot, the status of the text of the tefilla (as distinct from the idea of the tefilla)and how fixed it is (as per other threads re nusach bavel and eretz yisrael) and the status of piyutim. Now, even if one argues that being fixed by hazal gives it a status, piyutim don't have that status Given the fact of who wrote them and that they were accepted into the siddur/machzor means that the ideas should be taken with some seriousness (although with the caveat that the position of rav hai gaon about aggadic statements of hazal applies with far greater force to piyutim) - but viewing them as binding statements of faith?? somehow, I don't think that, say, if i disagree that af bri utat shem sar hamatar that I am violating principles of faith....and the ideas of piyutim, even widely accepted piyutim, have generated much controversy over the years....(eg, even forgetting the fifth ikkar issue, the standard ashkenazi avodah is viewed as problematic by many...)</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>However, his position is represetative of a certan maximalist school - that views everything within the mesora as inviolate and not subject to questioning - but ignoring the fact that the mesora itself views that much is subject to questioning - and therefore this view is itself against the mesora...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Meir Shinnar</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></BODY></HTML>