<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px">RMB<BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">I was going to let this go, but there were a couple of points on which I think</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">RMS misunderstood me in a way that didn't let me let go.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>I was also going to let it go...<BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">On Tue, March 27, 2007 8:58 pm, R Meir Shinnar wrote:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">: However, ikkarim per se - have rarely been used in a halachic process - in :</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">the sense that so far, you have not been able to cite a detailed process.</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">I explicitly listed what I saw as two objections from you on this point:</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">First, that no one really applied the process to decide on the ikkarim,</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Second, that even those who used the words "13 ikkarim" used it idiomatically</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">to mean emunah, and not this particular list.</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">IIRC, you gave me the 2nd response when I cited teshuvos about meshichtsin and</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">stam yeinam. (Both were lehaqeil, FWIW.)</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">But to this I question whether teshuvos are written that ca</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">: Remember, historically, until the 19th century, it was quite simple - it was</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">: quite easy to determine who were us and who were them - because it was an :</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">act of conscious identification or conscious rebellion.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>All discussions of :</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">the ikkarim are tempered by this.</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Now you have me confused... The ikkarim you were saying weren't discussed in a</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">halachic context you are now saying were discussed with an assumption of</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">conscious rebellion? Are you referring to discussion in a different context?</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">If so, how does the assumption of rebellion impact our discussion?</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV> on occasion ikkarim are mentioned in a halachic context - but more in the context of an assumption that everyone agrees - as a statement . eg, the ra'avad's tshuva about how intellectual error does not lead to kfira mentions that this even applies to the ikkarim. They are used in a halachic context - but more as a shorthand, but without a specific discussion of the precise details of the ikkarim - and the radvaz's tshuva would imply that even thought the ikkarim are presumed as correct belief, not believing in them has no specific halachic status - it is the rationale for disbelief that is important - and therefore the ikkarim go back to the philosophic realm....</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>My point was that halachic statements that can be found about the ikkarim are in general statements about dividing "us" from "them" - and until quite recently, that division was fairly easy to make - and those who were part of "us" as generally understood, even if they were thought to violate an ikkar emunah - were still part of us. The use of ikkarim was as a shorthand for ikkare emuna - but someone who was trying to be "us" was in general forgiven for errors in emunah far greater than someone of "them" would be allowed.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>To give a more recent example. RA Soloveichik's psak about meshichistin has been discussed. Assume RD Berger's nightmare comes true, and a group of Jews for Jesus comes along and says that they don't believe in J as god - but that they believe in him in exactly the way that RAS's psak says it was ok for the meshichisten to believe. Would we accept them? One issue, of course, is sincerity - and there is tremendous hava amina that this is not their true belief. But assuming that they are truly sincere, would we accept them? And I think that the answer is quite clear - we wouldn't - because acceptance of J for a Jew is an act of rebellion that puts them out of the community - even though they may not technically violate the ikkarim - while chabad is still part of our community...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">: this is why, to choose an ikkar which is less controversial that it is :</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">frequently violated - the fifth ikkar, even though there were many poskim :</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">who worried about the fifth ikkar halacha lema'ase<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>- and insisted on :</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">changing or omitting piyuttim - I am not aware of any posek, even those who :</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">nominally accepts the ikkarim as defining a kofer or a mumar - who views :</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">anyone who says machnise rachamim as a kofer whose wine can't be drunk.</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Because few (outside of the Darda'im and extreme Granikim) would hold that</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">narrow definition of the 5th ikkar. But we all agree that worshipping Moshe</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Rabbeinu, the eigel (to replace him), the keruvim, the Chaldean deity Kerub</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">(an ox whose wagon carried messages between earth and heaven), the two oxen</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">outside Malkhus Yisrael's temples, or Yeishu, is not Jewish.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>but on an intellectual level it is quite difficult to hold by anything other than a narrow definition - and it is quite clear that the rambam, as per his anthropology in hilchot avoda zara about dor enosh, holds that most of the justifications people use for prayers to malachim. The main reason we don't use the narrow reason is because we are aware of everyone who has either just recited - but also of those who composed - these piyutim - and for most of us, they are part of the community - and therefore what they did has to be acceptable. If rabbenu gershom me'or hagola wrote piyutim to malachim, then it must be within the range of acceptability - even if we may not personally understand or approve. given that, one can either say that we do not believe the fifth ikkar - or we can radically reinterprete it - but, as you are well aware, and even bring examples, this is quite difficult to do.....</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">But the same could be argued in the reverse: We ask people to say tehillim for</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">us, or a rav to give us a berakhah. Not considered violating the 5th ikkar.</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">What if the rav is deceased, is it so different to ask his neshamah for the</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">same berakhah? And is a niftar's neshamah so different than asking a mal'akh?</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Don't you say "Borchuni leshalom mal'akhei hashalom"?</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>It is considered not to violate the fifth ikkar because it is commonly done, and therefore can't violate the fifth ikkar....</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">So, the 5th ikkar's edges, like those of many dinim, are blurry. We can all</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">agree that violating the 5th ikkar in some fundamental way crosses the line,</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">but beyond that -- we all have our own lines.</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">That's how this "loose sense" is typical halakhah. It's like agreeing that</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">someone who eats a kezayis bemeizid on YK is oveir, without being able to</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">agree whether the amount a particular person ate was a kezayis. The CI would</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">be meiqil on him.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>again, you ignore my main point, Points where the dinim are blurry are typically points where there is a large halachic literature that tries to define the edges - and while there are disagreements, poskim try to lay down a line. This is not the case in ikkarim - where this shakla vetarya of what exactly are the precise bounds of the ikkarim does not exist - and whatever discussion occurs normally is that the boundary really isn't the ikkarim, or that this doesn't really violate the ikkarim - rather than a precise definition that this is kfira - and dealing with the implications of all the contrary opinions. It is this lack of literature that is the proof that this was not viewed as a halachic concept - which would be subject to this shaqla vetarya.</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">We accepted the ikkarim to the extent of incorporatingd it into the siddur in</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">two places. For that matter, to the extent that two poets thought it central</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">enough to warrant poetry. Well before the modern era in which RMShapiro thinks</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">we erred on this point. And even those who objected to limiting the doxology</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">just to the ikkarim (not looser restrictions, tighter!) only managed to get</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">rid of Ani Maamin -- Yigdal remains in every siddur from Frankfurt to Teiman.</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">A change in the siddur too requires halachic process.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>the incorporation of piyutim into the siddur was never a halachic process - it was far more minhag..</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>However, you conflate two separate issues. Do the 13 ikkarim summarize in some sense important Jewish ideas - yes. Saying them in yigdal is a way of stating them. Does that mean that they have halachic status, that not believing them has halachic consequences? That is quite a leap - and would need much further proof.....</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Do the ideas of any piyut incorporated into a standard siddur or machzor now have legal status that rejecting them is now problematic???</DIV><DIV>Meir Shinnar<BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>