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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>R' Eli Turkel wrote: <BR>*I repeat my previous question - what forced
Chazal to assume Vashti has<BR>*sins and<BR>*was evil. This is not pshat in the
pesukim. Again, in accordance with the<BR>*Malbim<BR>*(and R.Boubil) it could
have been just political intrigue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RZS wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>It's certainly not inherent in the pesukim. From the pesukim
one<BR>might conclude that Vashti was a real tzadekes, the innocent victim<BR>of
a tyrannical king. And yet Chazal do take it that way,
without<BR>question. <<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RJR wrote:</DIV>
<DIV><BR>>>imvho it seems empirically chazal had mesora's
concerning certain figures and interpreted the text (for good or bad) based on
the mesora.<<<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR>R' Moshe Yehuda Gluck wrote:<BR><BR>>>The Chasimas HaTalmud
wasn't all that long after the story of the Megillah.<BR>The secular world has
records from 500 years ago (think Colombus, Magna<BR>Carta, Crusades, etc.).
Probably Chazal had either written records or an<BR>oral tradition as to what
happened - that she was evil, that she grew a<BR>tail,
etc.<<<BR><BR>KT,<BR>MYG </FONT></DIV><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT></DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>>>>>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>(1) It is more likely that they had a long-standing oral tradition
than that they had written records but in any case RMYG's statement --
>>the Chasimas HaTalmud wasn't all that long after the story of the
Megillah << -- is not correct. (Depending how you define "not
long.") </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>The second bais hamikdash was built around 350 BCE according to frum
sources (further back according to secular historians). The events
recorded in Megillas Esther occurred a few years before or a few years after
binyan Bayis Sheni. The Talmud Yerushalmi was sealed around 400 CE, the
Talmud Bavli around 500 CE. Thus, approximately 850 years elapsed
between the events of Megillas Esther and chasimas haTalmud.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>Memories and traditions can certainly shift in that time period.
I'm not saying that is what happened, but it could have.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>(2) Several people wrote that Chazal simply had a mesorah about
certain characters in Tanach and nothing in the text "required" them
to say what they said about Vashti. But it seems to me that almost always,
a Midrash or comment of Chazal about something in Tanach answers some kind of
question or fills in a gap of some kind. Thus, "Vashti grew a tail"
is not just a mesorah but the answer to a question that the text doesn't
address: "WHY did Vashti refuse to come to the party?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>"Vashti was evil" answers a different kind of question, namely, "Why did
Vashti die?" Yes, there's an immediate reason -- Achashverosh's
anger -- but there is a cosmic reason too. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>To understand why it's a question you have to understand the planted
axiom of the Megillah, namely: EVERYTHING happens for a reason. For
a Divinely ordained, cosmic reason, that is. It may not be obvious on a
day-to-day level but Hashgacha Pratis is always operative. So -- WHY
did Vashti die? That is, why did she DESERVE to die? (Since if she
didn't deserve it, her death would be cosmically random and not Divinely
ordained)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Unlike the question "Why didn't she go the party?" -- the context of
which is just a few pesukim -- in the case of the question "Why did she die?"
the context is the Megillah taken as a whole. The message of the whole
Megillah is, as I said, that Divine justice is always operative even when that
is not immediately obvious.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>In the Megillah (more neatly and obviously than in our daily lives), the
bad guys get their comeuppance and the good guys get saved. In real life
things are messier, but if the Megillah were as lacking in clarity as our daily
lives, its message would be blurred. If someone died for no reason (no
cosmic reason), then the lesson of the Megillah would be
muddied. So in the context of the Megillah's message, Chazal have to
answer the implicit question: Why did Vashti die? And in that
context the only answer that makes sense is "She was evil."</FONT><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============</B></FONT></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at <A title="http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com" href="http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom" target="_blank"><B>AOL.com</B></A>. </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>