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RDMI<br></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
WADR, I think you are missing RMB's point.<span> </span>There are specific<span> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
l'maaseh inyanim for which it is necessary to define k'fira. <span> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
Whether you want to, for example, accept <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> geirus of a beis din<span> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
that understands <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> parameters of k'fira differently than you do<span> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
is a real question, but outside <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> scope of this post.<span> </span>What RMB<span> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
is claiming is that b'zman hazeh in places where it is l'maaseh<span> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
necessary to define k'fira, some version of <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> ikkarim is used.<span> </span>I<span> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
am willing to grant that it is conceivable that there are<span> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
exceptions to this, but I haven't seen any, <span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> you haven't brought<span> </span></font></p> <p style="margin: 0px;"><font style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" face="Helvetica" size="3">
any.</font></p> </blockquote></div><div><br></div>1. <span id="st" name="st" class="st">The</span> issue whether kfira as a halachic criteria, rather than as a philosophic one, is one properly addressed by halachic criteria - or that one should be quite leery of such labels - is not answered by
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> fact that some poskim do - <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> main point of my post. While radbaz is not a contemporary posek, he is a very major posek who rejects
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> halachic approach endorsed by RMB - <span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> he is someone, from a halachic perspective (if one does want to use halachic criteria) one can be somech on (
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> <span id="st" name="st" class="st">see</span> <span id="st" name="st" class="st">later</span> <span id="st" name="st" class="st">about</span> <span id="st" name="st" class="st">
the</span> <span id="st" name="st" class="st">CI</span>)<div><br><div>2) <span id="st" name="st" class="st">The</span> issue of gerut is quite different than <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> issue of kfira -
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> criteria that bet din uses in order to accept one into <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> club are not necessarily <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> same as
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> ones that one would use to define kfira in other halachic circumstances.</div><div>eg, rav shlomo goren has a tshuva <span id="st" name="st" class="st">about</span> whether someone who wants to undergo gerut - fully accept ol malchut shamayim
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> ol mitzvot, however, does not accept <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> notion of am yisrael - feels himself bound to all shomre mitzvot, but not otherwise - that person would not be accepted as a ger -
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> while brit avot (a la RYBS is important), it isn't quite <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> same as kfira.</div><div><span id="st" name="st" class="st">The</span>
notion of some version related to <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> thirteen ikkarim as defining sociologically what most of <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> community believes is something that even Marc Schapiro acknowledges -
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> a large part of gerut, in additional to accepting ol malchut shamayim, is joining <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> community <span id="st" name="st" class="st">and
</span> its standards - which is quite different than defining it as real kfira. </div><div><br></div><div>3) <span id="st" name="st" class="st">The</span> other main issues where kfira may have a halachic role are ones where there are actually few tshuvot, especially by major poskim, to justify RMB's position. eg, a kofer can't be counted in a minyan - but, AFAIK, most poskim don't have a problem counting people who do not believe in
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> ikkarim <span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> are therefore, according to people here, kofrim. eg, most non O will accept biblical criticism <span id="st" name="st" class="st">
and</span> a major human component in <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> writing of humash, but that hasn't been an issue (<span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> if we accept <span id="st" name="st" class="st">
the</span> hazon ish's position <span id="st" name="st" class="st">about</span> people today being quasi tinokot shenishbu as also applying to kfira - which I think that he did, <span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span>
which would be, in essence an adoption <span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> extension of <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> radbaz's criteria - that kfira which is in any way caused not by willful rejection, but by secondary causes - whether faulty reasoning or
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> pressure of general society , is not kfira - we are in essence saying that kfira doesn't have a practical halachic dimension in our times - <span id="st" name="st" class="st">
and</span> we are left with <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> philosophic dimension). </div><div><br></div><div>4) Again, until recently, there was a tremendous reluctance to label as kfira a position endorsed by someone recognized as a major figure in
<span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> mesora (<span id="st" name="st" class="st">and</span> for many, even for minor figures - <span id="st" name="st" class="st">the</span> comment of <span id="st" name="st" class="st">
the</span> ra'avad <span id="st" name="st" class="st">about</span> hagshama) - something that other posters have recognized.</div><span class="sg"><div><br></div><div>Meir Shinnar</div></span></div></div>