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Zvi Lampel wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid208c791fe912417d897a2a36c996b4d6.hlampel@thejnet.com"
type="cite"> <br>
<address><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Another
suggestion: Evidently, we are forced to say that even when Rambam in
Mishneh Torah states they heard Hashem telling Moshe [to] tell them
kach ve’kach, the Rambam must mean not that they were able to
distinguish clear words from Hashem, but only that they apprehended His
awesome Voice. Once we assume this, the "kach ve-kach" can be referring
to Hashem’s instructions as the people actually perceived them: When
witnessing the Voice, they did not distinctly discern what specifics
Hashem was telling Moshe to convey to them. This is what the Rambam
means when he says they perceived that Hashem was telling Moshe to tell
them ‘‘something’’--"kach ve-kach."</font></address>
</blockquote>
This does not fit in with the language of Mishneh Torah and if they
only heard an awesome sound - without content it would not have
convinced the people that Moshe was a true prophet. This is the view of
the following:<br>
<br>
Rashba (4:234): <span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">... The only
remaining option for clarifying the truth of Moshe's prophecy was by
their own
prophecy and this is what in fact occurred at the Revelation of Sina
when they
final established the truth.<span style=""> </span>The second
reason is that G‑d said to Moshe (Shemos 19:9) <i>Behold I come to you
in a
thick cloud in order that the people will hear Me speaking with you so
they may
believe in you forever.</i> It is well known that the physical senses
can not
detect G‑d speaking with His prophets. Therefore if G‑d had spoken with
a
physical voice – even one that was very powerful and awesome and
greater than
that of the sound of the shofar, thunder and fire – it would not have
removed
their original doubts. It would not have been more impressive than the
Splitting of the Sea and so therefore how would it have helped.
Therefore it
was obvious that that voice that G‑d spoke to Moshe with must have been
prophetic rather than physical. <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">Shaoh(Mesechta
Shavuos #77): ... In order
to understand the previous issue it is necessary to explain clearly the
nature
of the receiving of the Torah and the importance of each generation who
were
there and each one received his portion in the Torah. Rambam (Moreh
Nevuchim
2:33) states that the sound that was perceived by the Jews at Sinai was
something created… However it is prohibited to accept such a view. In
fact the
sound was the voice of G‑d which He made heard from Heaven. I have
previously
alluded to the issue of Heaven which is the glory of Israel and the
foundation
of the Written Law. Also regarding the hearing of the voice at the holy
assembly of Sinai, whether that which Moshe heard was also heard by the
people
or not – the Rambam’s explanation is not acceptable. He incorrecly
asserts that
only Moshe clearly heard the words while the people heard only an
unintelligble
sound. Rambam claims that Moshe told the people what he alone had heard.<span
style=""> </span>Rambam bases himself on<span style=""> </span>Devarim(5:5):
“I stood between G‑d and you”,
and Shemos (19:19): “Moshe spoke and G‑d answered with a sound” and “In
order
that the people hear when I am speaking with you.” Rambam understands
from
these verses that G‑d spoke only to him while the people heard only an
unintelligble sound</span><br>
<br>
Avodas HaKodesh(4:31): <span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">Rambam
(Moreh Nevuchim 2:33) says that the awesome sound which Israel heard at
Sinai
and through which the Torah was given – was created. He explains this
in Moreh
Nevuchim (1:65): “This is especially so since all our people agree that
the
Torah - the words ascribed to Him – was itself created. In fact speech
which is
attributed to Him – that which Moshe heard – was created and produced
by G‑d in
the same manner that He created and produced everything else in the
universe.”
The intent according the commentaries is that if He has speech then the
Torah
is His speech and since the Torah is created He has no speech….The
explanation
of the Rambam is a dark mountain which causes the feet of the believers
to
stumble and causes them to deviate from the path of the Torah. That is
because
they have doubts about this Voice which the Rambam says was created. I
have
already seen the commentators to the Rambam’s words saying, “And all of
Israel
heard the voice that was created by Moshe as the messenger of G‑d…”
This
harmful view has been taught to them a number of times in Moreh
Nevuchim
(2:33). This view of the Rambam has caused much problems by undermining
proper
faith. For example according to the Rambam’s view one can say that
there were
greatly different voices that were created for Moshe and Israel. But
where did
the voice for Moshe by which he alone heard the Ten Commandments come
from? If
it came from G‑d then why didn’t Israel hear it after they reached a
high level
of spirituality. The distinction between Moshe and the people according
to the
Rambam is that only Moshe understood the words but they only heard the
Voice
but not the words. However something which is created would not be
beyond their
ability to perceive when they were on the level to receive the Torah
and it
would not be necessary for Moshe to create a special voice for them. If
in fact
Moshe had created a voice for them it would create doubts for them. For
example
they would have doubts as to whether it was Moshe who gave them the
Torah
rather than G‑d. In fact there is a medrash which states that G‑d acted
to prevent
any doubts as to whether Moshe was the giver of the Torah rather than
G‑d.<span style=""> </span>Shemos Rabbah (28:3) states...</span>
<blockquote
cite="mid208c791fe912417d897a2a36c996b4d6.hlampel@thejnet.com"
type="cite">
<address> </address>
<address><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">(By the
way, the Sefer HaIkarrim (3:19) says that the people heard Hashem
telling Moshe, ‘‘Tell them to go return to their tents...’’ This
corresponds to his own shita--not the Rambam’s--that the first two
dibros the people heard Hashem saying clearly, the rest of the dibros
they heard only the His Voice and needed Moshe to delineate the words,
and the rest of the 613 mitzvos they heard only from Moshe.)</font></address>
</blockquote>
Sefer HaIkkarim is 1:18. It is the basis of Rav Hutner's (Pachad
Yitzchok (Shavuos 1:2) discussion of the issue - but it doesn't seem to
solve the above problem.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid208c791fe912417d897a2a36c996b4d6.hlampel@thejnet.com"
type="cite">
<address><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">The Moreh
Nevuchim does not say that the people did not hear G-d speaking, only
that although they heard his Voice, they were not at the prophetic
level to make out the words. I share the objections other rishonim to
the Rambam’s shita (the Abarbanel can be added to the list). But I
think RDG would point out that a careful reading of the Mishneh Torah
tolerates the Moreh Nevuchim’s shita:</font> </address>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
cite="mid208c791fe912417d897a2a36c996b4d6.hlampel@thejnet.com"
type="cite">
<address><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">The
Rambam is explaining why Yisrael believed in the fact that Hashem
speaks to Mosheh, and the invalidity of his miracles for this purpose.
The proof that Hashem communicated with Moshe is not the fact that we
saw Moshe performing miracles, but our witnessing the awesome sights
and sounds at Mt. Sinai. The symmetry indicates that what one might
have thought the miracles verified--the authenticity of Moshe as a
prophet, the fact that Hashem speaks to Moshe--was really verified by
the Sinai experience. The verification was not dependent upon our
hearing distinct words, only knowing that the Voice did indeed speak to
Moshe. Therefore, even though the words spoken were indistinguishable,
we definitely "overheard" a conversation going on between Hashem and
Moshe (‘‘Moshe y’daber, va-Hashem ya’anennu b’Kol’’), and that is all
that was needed for us to know that Hashem spoke with him.</font></address>
<address> </address>
<address><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Granted,
this is not the sense I would have gotten from the Mishneh Torah
without seeing the Moreh Nevuchim. But as I said, it’s tolerable. I
would also like to call attention to how the Moreh Nevuchim,
particularly in the passage under discussion, bases every statement on
Chazal.</font></address>
</blockquote>
I don't understand your point. If they heard a sound associated with
Gd's speaking than in a technical sense they heard G-d speaking.
However the proof of Mishneh Torah is only a proof if they heard G-d's
words. Moreh Nevuchim rules out that possibility. Your understanding is
that the sound was a miraculous sound and that convinced them. But the
Rambam clearly says that miracles are not the basis of their belief in
Moshe's prophecy.<br>
<br>
In sum: If Rambam is
consistent with Moreh Nevuchim there is no proof for the skeptical Jews
that Moshe was speaking with G-d. This point is developed thoroughly by
the above sources.<br>
<br>
Daniel Eidensohn<br>
<br>
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