Ragerding the pronunciation of magdil/migdol, someone wrote: > (WADR to the TT, the theory doesn't work because the Avudraham > mentions the practice, and he didn't know about a future splitting > of Shemu'el by people in another part of the world.) to which R' Simon Montagu asked: > I don't understand this disproof. The TT's theory seems to me to > work just as well if the original note said "beit shin" for > "bishmuel" But the orginal note was not simple "beit shin". It was "beit shin beit", which could mean either "b'Shabbat" or "b'Shmuel Beit". R' Simon Montagu added: > A similar example that I heard from the late Rabbi Ephraim > Wiesenberg of London is the note in some haggadot that on motza'ei > shabbat one should say "min hapesahhim umin hazebahhim" instead > of "min hazebahhim umin hapesahhim" shortly before the second cup > of wine. Now, there is an explanation (which I forget) why on > motza"sh the pesahh was eaten before the zebahh, but what does that > have to do with it? In context, it refers to "regalim ahherim > haba'im likratenu" and davka not this year, so why should the order > this year be taken into account? Instead, it is suggested, there > was originally a note "beit mem shin" meaning "bamishna" (referring > to the mishna within the bavli, Pesahhim 116b) which was > misinterpreted as "bemotza'ei shabbat". I concede that this may have had its basis in such a text, like magdil/migdol. Nevertheless, this is a great opportunity for me to offer an alternate explanation, one which answers RSM's question of "why should the order this year be taken into account?" The answer is that you are correct; it makes no sense logically. But it makes a great deal of sense pedagogically. Shaar Hatziyun 473:80 explains that normally, the chagigah (zevach) is eaten prior to the pesach, which must be eaten when already sated. But the chagigah cannot be slaughtered on Shabbos, so when Erev Pesach is Shabbos, the chagigah had to be delayed until Sunday, i.e., Yom Tov afternoon, long after the seder. Therefore, when the seder is Motzaei Shabbos, the text of the bracha is changed to reflect the order of eating for that year: first the pesach, then the chagigah (zevach). (The Shaar Hatziyun does also bring the opposing view, that the text is left unchanged, because it is talking about *next* year.) Now, let's suppose that we want to teach people that when the seder is on Motzaei Shabbos, the order of the korbanos is switched. Switching their order in the brachos is a great way to teach this. There are many things which we do at the seder to inspire such questions, to which the father will tell the kids, "Here, have some more nuts while I look that up." (Ooops, started to slip into Purim mode there... :-) Now, I grant you that the text of the bracha is about *future* years. But so what? Should we change the text only in years when the calendar say that *next* year the seder will be Motzaei Shabbos? There are several problems with that idea. One is that the bracha is not about *next* year, but about future years in general, and switching it *all* the time would be absurd. Another problem is that it would show a lack of emunah that we hope to be on a new calendar (eidei r'eeah) by next year. So we go the simple route. When the seder is on Motzaei Shabbos here and now, we teach about when the seder is on Motzaei Shabbos in Beis HaMikdash days. Even though the bracha is about future years. Not because it makes sense, but because it is a good opportunity to demonstrate the idea. But this is not the only case where pedagogy trumps logic. A much better example is Lechem Mishneh. Think about it. In what was does it make sense to require double loaves on Saturday? That's not when the double manna fell. It fell on Friday! If you want to be logical, then you should require double loaves when you eat lunch on Friday!!! But from a chinuch perspective, Friday is just too impractical. Are we going to require that people must make hamotzi on friday? If not, the lechem mishneh will only apply when people voluntarily choose to eat bread. Pretty soon, it'll get forgotten. So instead, we do Lechem Mishneh on Shabbos. Even though in the midbar, when Saturday lunch arrived, we had already eaten one loaf of manna and were down to one left. Even so, Chazal still require that we use two loaves, and specifically to remember it the double portion of manna -- which was already gone by Saturday!!! Does it make sense logically? No, not really. But does it teach us about the manna? Yes, very well. I think there are other examples, but I can't remember them. I suppose covering the challah on Shabbos is another manna-related thing which ought to apply only on Friday. Akiva Miller