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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cm wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>>BTW, it
seems to be generally accepted that we already apply the idea of<BR>>nishtane
hateva wrt to the menstrual cycle of modern women as different from<BR>>that
in the time of chazal.<BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>RMSS
responded:<BR>Could you elaborate? If you are referring to vest kavauh, the
nishtaneh<BR>was (at least in major part) the invention of indoor electric
lighting.<BR>A woman can induce more regular periods if she goes to sleep at
sundown<BR>with the light in the room reflecting the moons light; i.e. a full
moon<BR>= a small night light, no moon = darkness.<BR><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Also R'n CL wrote previously in this thread:</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I don't know that this is "generally accepted". I have heard a
number<BR>of poskim say that it is not nishtane hateva, but better nutrition
that<BR>has led to changes</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To which I [CM] responded:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I agree. Let me rephrase. Most will agree that the facts on the ground
today<BR>are different than they were in the time of Chazal. Some ascribe this
to<BR>nishtane hateva, while others ascribe this to better nutrition in
modern<BR>times</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>I [CM] now
respond but modify somewhat:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The implication from all our discussions above is
that there is Nishtane Hateva on the one hand while on the other hand
there may be various causes for the change other than Nishtane Hateva,
e.g., better nutrition, electric lighting etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Upon thinking about this further, I am not sure if
our collective thinking on this is correct. Does Nishtane Hateva mean that there
was some fundamental change in the nature of things as opposed to some directly
identifiable cause for the change? I rather doubt this. Rather, these are the
agents that have caused the Teva we see to change. I suspect that in all cases
of the use of this term, no fundamental change to nature have occurred. Just
some circumstance has changed causing nature to follow some slightly modified
path with a different end result. Thus in our case above the Teva
is Nishtane and the reason for the shinui may be better
nutrition or electricity etc. One might choose to use the term [Nishtane Hateva]
only when the specific cause of the change is unknown and not use the term when
the cause is known. But the process is the same either way. Either
way, the resultant natural phenomenon we observe is the result of some changed
circumstance or cascade of circumstances that follow the SAME
unchanged biological or physical laws, but render the result we see now
that is different from that seen in the time of chazal, the Avos and
earlier.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The cases where nishtane hateva is variously
applied that I can come up with off the top of my head that fit this
picture.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>a) Anakim in Chumash</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>b) Lifesapn prior to the Avos</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>c) Sizes of eggs, olives etc. and therefore
shiurim</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>d) Veset kavua</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>e) Survival of 8 month fetus born
prematurely</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>f) Nursing cow give birth to bechor (see
Machatsis HaShekel, SA OH 173; YD 316:3)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g) Yoledes letes chadoshim ain yoledes lemekuto'in
(same MH, OH 173; Remoh, SA EH 156:4)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>h) Treifa can not survive twelve months or give
birth (consider modern technology, surgery and transplants)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>i) Certain lobes in the lung make an animal a
treifa (see Tos. Chulin 47a)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>j) 2 year old cow give birth (see Tos, AZ
24b)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>k) No breathing = sign of death (for
some?)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>l) The mishna of Ubra shehericha (my addition
assuming I am right)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Other cases where this is used might not
fit as well. Generally the cases where modern science seems to conflict
with divrei chazal:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>m) Spontaneous generation, Lice etc.
(Some would not apply that here, but some do)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>n) Medical cures of chazal (some could fit in the
first category as well, Noda beYehuda that cures are now
ineffective due to climate change?)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>o) Differences in human and animal anatomy between
chazal and modern biology. e.g., use of nishtane hateva by CI to explain the
contradiction between the gemara and science about<BR>the connection between the
urinal and semen tracts [from archive post by R Eli Turkel]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>p) Various sakonos like fish and meat together (see
Magen Avraham SA OH 173)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>q) Things that cause loss
of memory</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>r) Carbon dating</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>s) Many more that I can not remember or never heard
of.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You can obviously easily quibble with the way I
have categorized these. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Any additions to this list that readily come to
mind?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Kol Tuv</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chaim Manaster</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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