[Avodah] Normal People Don't Care About Those Things

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jan 14, 2026 at 04:02:02PM -0500, Meir Shinnar via Avodah wrote:
> 1. the first person I know who is explicit about actions being primary
> is Mendelson. While he is viewed now by many as Reform,in his lifetime
> he was viewed by most to be Orthodox.

So much so, that when they had to post their curriculum, Volozhin told
the Russian government they learned Chumash with his Biur. Certainly
not something they would claim if they thought he was treif. Even if
you think they were lying to / exagerating to the government to sound
more worldly.
(I translated the curriculum from R/Dr Stampfer's book at:
https://michaberger.substack.com/p/the-curriculum-at-volozhin )

a- "Actions being primary" still stays there is a limit on belief.

b- In retrospect, his ideas did get cantilevered into R. One cannot
say with 

> 2. One has to define what one means by the Orthodox community
> carefully. In my daughter's dayschool in Philadelphia, I was told that
> denying gilgul neshamot was kfira...

These two lines seem to ignore the whole point of my previous post.
"What is kefirah?" and "Who is a kofeir?" are two different questions.
The Radvaz you cited (and cited also years ago, when I looked inside,
thank you!) says that only a subset of those who believe kefirah should
be labeled koferim.

The Rambam, by making the relationship between yedi'ah and olam haba
causal, creates the possibility to discuss something other than an
apiqories whom halakhah requires we treat differently. He has the the
lack of belief as inherently changing the person because they lack a
cheileq le'olam haba. R Chaim Brisker's "nebich an apiroqeis." But there
is no indication the Rambam, R Chaim, or R Velvel (our source for R Chaim
using this idiom) actually said that everyone who couldn't get into gan
eden and olam haba is the halachic min, apiqoreis or kofeir whom we must
treat as an outsider.

Also, in one way, this dayschool is closer to your position than to
mine.

I would argue that the halachic definition of who is a kofeir has been
decided by subsequent minhag Yisrael to be someone whose beliefs don't
fit the 13 iqarim. And if we are to hold like the Radvaz, he reached
that conclusion the wrong way.

It is only someone who does not believe there has been a pesaq about
which beliefs are under discussion who can slip in gilgul, 10 sefiros,
Daas Torah, or whatever. (To throw in 2 examples I've experienced.)

----

By the way, that Rambam is very problematic.

First, because it means that olam haba is more about ideas than middos or
behavior. The latter he sees more as consequences of ideas than ideas as
consequences of emotion and need. I don't know of any Modern philosophers
or schools of psychology that would agree. And I don't know how many of
us built our own belief systems in a way that makes morality the 2nd-best
perfection to perfection of knowledge. (Last chapter of the Moreh.)

So I wouldn't personally worry about this Rambam too much, or about
a R Chaim based on that Rambam. Interesting theory to discuss, but
likely no one in the discussion would put money on that pony.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Strength does not come from winning. Your
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   struggles develop your strength When you go
Author: Widen Your Tent      through hardship and decide not to surrender,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger