[Avodah] Normal People Don't Care About Those Things

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Dec 29, 2025 at 06:09:20AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote:
> In Avodah Digest, Vol 43, Issue 72 dated 12/2/2025 
> From: "Jay F. Shachter" <jay at m5.chicago.il.us>
>> Normal people don't care about beliefs.  Normal people care
>> about observable behavior.  Reality is that which can be seen and
>> felt. .....

Lemaaseh I think this is true.

And whether or not you agree with the his example R Dr David Berger
lamented this. It's the reason for the second half of his (in?)famous
book's title, "... and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference".

The question of whether O is indifferent or believe that he is mistaken
in the extent of the issue and/or its halachic status aside. I don't
really want to argue L Messianism, and with my Mod Hat on, I can
tell you in advance we won't.

I do think it is scandalous that we include Jews by what they do,
and not by what they believe.

All those O affiliated non-observant Jews who went to C only did
so because O lost its openness in this way. Our tent should be
big enough to include "the Judaism I don't observe is O" people,
as well as those beyond.

Our community is now strong enough that we don't have to worry
about them watering down the culture of observance for those
who do observe.

The Chabad House model should be studied and emulated by the rest
of us.


Then the conversation shifts from the sociological behavior of
O to what it ought to be al pi haTorah:
> The part of Judaism thatcares about abstract beliefs
> that do not manifest themselves inobservable behavior is entirely
> post-Biblical.

> Dovid Hamelech wrote
>    Amar naval belibo, ein Elokim
>    a degenerate says in his heart, there is no G-d
>                   (Tehillim 14:1).

> Sefer Tehillim is not post-Biblical...

However, RJFS writes only about "abstract beliefs that do not manifest
themselves inobservable behavior". Which I would take to mean his list
of biblical iqarei emnuah exists -- they are those beliefs necessary to
logically justify observance.

Which would include, for example, monotheism, but perhaps not believing
in the coming of mashiach. Similarly some form of belief in Torah min
haShamayim. (I would argue Torah miSinai too, but I have been in on-line
debates on that point.)

Which would explain how R Hillel both didn't believe in the latter and
yet was considered a kosher dayan when he was Av Beis Din. Over the
court that the She'iltos says established our current calendar, no less.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Every child comes with the message
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   that God is not yet discouraged with
Author: Widen Your Tent      humanity.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Rabindranath Tagore