[Avodah] Kiddushin and Nisuin

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Aug 17, 2025 at 6:25am EDT, RYGB wrote:
> Does anyone have knowledge and, preferably a reference, as to when
> kiddushin and nisuin were consolidated?

Rabbinu Tam (Seifer haYashar, shut 47:7) says that Rashi requires
making Eirusin and Nissuin on two separate kosos. So someone was
dealing with eirusin and nissuin being back-to-back by Rashi's
day.

A generation later, Machzor Vitri (see 587) says that having them the
same day but not at the same time was the norm. Although he reports that
in some places they were already doing the two together.

Similarly, Tosafos also require separate kosos(Pesachim 102 "she'ein")
which makes the same implication.

So I would conclude the custom was just starting in the late 11th cent,
but had spread to becoming the norm by the Tur's day, early 14th cent. (As
reported by RHS and RDS, citing Tur EhE 22.)

But even the MV's on the same day was a different norm than Chazal's.

(This answer is Ashkocentric. I couldn't find sources earlier than the
already-discussed BY [ad loc] for the evolution of other minhagim.)


On Sun, Aug 24, 2025 at 4:23pm CDT, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote:
>        ...  [T]he questioner assumes that qiddushin and nisuin have
> been consolidated.  The questioner must first establish that they have
> been; and, in fact, we see, on the contrary, in Episode 4 of Season 2
> of "Shtisel", that they have not...

But here in the real world, it is rare to the point of vanishing
(mi'ut she'eino niqar) to have qiddushin and nissuin not abutting
eachother.

Especially according to the rishonim who define nissuin as chupah,
rather than yichud. There is less than tokh kedei dibbur, as they are
under the chuppah a moment after she is given the ring (and before,
but that's not relevant).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Integrity is choosing to practice our values
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   rather than simply professing them.
Author: Widen Your Tent                  - Brene Brown
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF