[Avodah] Atonement via proxy - SaIr HaMishtaleAch

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 10:40:49AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> R Micha suggests that after the se'ir hamishtaleiach
>  they still said vidui, they still held ne'ilah.
> Which means they were NOT forgiven
> We too say VeHu Rachum when beginning MaAriv after YK

Because
1- we are relying on our teshuvah, and therefore cannot assume 100% total
kaparah, and
2- we say the normal matbeia', and how well it applies is secondary.

> Not saying Viduy is flaunting
> rather than expressing gratitude and celebrating
> Akin to YaAkob Avinu saying Katonti Mikol HaChassadim

Flaunting what? If HQBH said He guarantees saving us, taking that as a
given is simply having the emunah necessary to be thrilled for being
saved. We aren't flaunting our sins or patting ourselves on the back for
our teshuvah.

It would also make teshuvah as valuable as a Quidditch Match quaffle.*

(* In case someone needs the mashal explained: JK Rowling's parody of
sports in Harry Potter is a game where a quaffle is 10 points, getting
the snitch is 150 points, and games are portrayed as having about as
many quaffles as a soccer match has goals.)

To quote Peninei Halakhah (REMelamed) 7 "Hil' Yom Kippur", ch 6 (tr. is
by a team led by R Elli Fischer, who is active enough on-line that a
number of us must be e-friends):

    There is a disagreement among the Sages as to whether one who
    confessed his sins the previous Yom Kippur should confess the same
    sins again (Yoma 86b). Some say, "Of him, Scripture says, 'As a
    dog returns to his vomit, so a dullard repeats his folly' (Mishlei
    26:11)." In contrast, R. Eliezer b. Yaakov says, "He is certainly
    praiseworthy, as we read, 'For I recognize my transgressions and am
    ever conscious of my sin' (Tehilim 51:5)." Shulan Arukh rules that
    one may confess again for sins to which he confessed the previous year
    (SA 607:4).

Which is certainly must weaker than "flaunting".

But in any case, I didn't limit myself to Vidui. Why coin Ne'iah? Why
did HQBH require finishing the day's fast? Kaparah time is over, why do
we continue acting like we're under the gun.

Continuing, REM has a theory to be meyasheiv the two amoera'im and avoiding
a machloqes:

    Perhaps we can suggest a guideline: If one feels that his repentance
    is incomplete, and that he has not yet managed to erase the sin from
    his heart completely, it is better for him to confess again. But
    if one feels that his repentance is complete and the sin is erased
    from his heart, it is not appropriate to confess, as doing so
    displays a lack of faith in the power of repentance. Sometimes a
    person repents completely and erases a sin from his heart, but a
    few years later suddenly thinks about it again and is distressed by
    it. This happens because his repentance was sufficient for his former
    spiritual stature; no trace of the sin was discernible. However,
    after he attains a greater, more illuminated spiritual stature, his
    previous repentance is no longer sufficient to cleanse him of any
    trace of sin. Therefore, he must confess again to erase the faint
    but lingering impression of his sin (Tzidkat Ha-tzadik 134:67).

...
> He is referring to when there is no SaIr HaMishtaleAch
> with the SaIr he clearly says it atones for Kalos even when the sinners
> have no regret

>  It is unclear if these 'proxy' atonements forgive Chillul HaSHem etc

Chilul hasheim is only toleh by teshuvah and YK, and there isn't
actual kaparah until misah. (Yoma 86a, Hil' Teshuvah 1:4) And every
aveirah lehach'is (or: "lehachas") has some measure of chillul hasheim
involved. See Seifer haMitzvos lav #63, Chinukh #29.

So arguably YK isn't mechaper a lot of cheit. Pewrhaps one could get
kaparah for eating treif, but if they did it lehach'is, they don't get
kaparah for the motive. (Maybe?) See the language in H' Teshuvah 1:4,
"When are these things said? When he didn't chilel es hasheim at the
time of violation..." They may get selichah and/or mechilah though,
depending on the definitions of selichah, mechilah, and toleh.


> It certainly is not a Kapparah for Bein Adam LeChaveiro

It *is* a kapparah from HQBH for any aveirah BALC for which the chaver
already forgave him. One needs kaparah from both the person and the One
Who commanded you not to harm / offend that person.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 We are what we repeatedly do.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Thus excellence is not an event,
Author: Widen Your Tent      but a habit.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Aristotle