[Avodah] skiplagged.com

[mcohen at touchlogic.com]

thank you
 
you suggest:
1. the airline is only minorly annoyed/dont really care and therefore ok
i think the reality is that they are v unhappy about it. they have sued skiplagged.com multiple times.
they w definitely refuse to sell you the ticket if they knew you were going to skip
 
2. reducing the chances of being bumped
hard to hear. 
dk if true. 
certainly not your kavana (as you mentioned). 
even skiplagged doesnt mention this 'maaleh' to using their service
 
i had 4 sevorahs to forbid:
1. gneivas daas
2. sheker
3. chillul hashem
4. maybe gneiva mamash (bc articles online say that airline T&Cs explicitly forbid buying their tickets with this intention and therefore maybe you are trespassing on their airplane)
 
someone proposed to me no gneivas daas bc the corporation has no daas
'whose mind are you fooling'
 
another TC proposed to me no gneivas daas bc they know so many pple are doing it anyways that its not gneivas daas, just an unhappy goy.
 
i'm not happy with either of these sevoras
 
is it not gneivas daas to lie about your childs age to get cheaper admission tickets etc
 
with skiplagged you are lying about your destination to get cheaper tickets
 
both cases the company knows that some pple do it, but they are not happy about it and wouldnt sell it to you if they knew the truth
 
 
btw, someone asked me if this is asur, what about the (common?) practice of buying things (airplane tickets, hotel) by buying someone elses points?

 
..v'yeish l'chaliak
 
mc
 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Micha Berger" <micha at aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2025 1:46am
To: "The Avodah Torah Discussion Group" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Cc: mcohen at touchlogic.com
Subject: Re: [Avodah] skiplagged.com



On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 6:06am EST, RNC wrote:
> is there any heter to use skiplagged.com,
> or is it asur bc of gneivas daas?

I think this is an interesting question, but it didn't get any bites.
So, for those who don't know what the question is about, I'll me explain
Skiplagging, and maybe more people can participate.

Popular trips garner competition. So it's possible that a flight with a
stopover using airports A, B and C is cheaper than one from just A to B.
Despite the extra labor, fuel, etc.. (Typically, this is when C is a
bigger city or tourism destination with more people from A wanting to
go there.) Skiplagging is whn you book the trip A-B-C and simply leave
the airport at A, getting your A-B trip at a cheaper price.

Now, on to the halachic discussion.

I see you mention geneivas fa'as.

Before that, is it midevar sheqer tirchaq or "hin tzedeq" (the obligation
to stand by your word)? I never read the fine print when buying a ticket
to know if you actually promise to use it.

As for geneivas da'as itself, we are talking about the conclusion you're
leading the other party to have. Nitpicking over words may not be an "out",
althouth there are more cases where it is permissible.

As for the airline, they may be annoyed that they couldn't use your seat
on the B-C flight. But then, they typically oversell, knowing that out
of a plane-load of passengers some will have reason not to show, or not
to show on time.

We all know this from the times they overestimate the
no-shows and offer discounts or free trips to anyone who voluntarily takes
a later flight.

But worse, people get bumped. People who booked with a stopover aren't
likely to get bumped.

It might be possible that skiplagging is permissible because it is also
a means of reducing the chances of being bumped to a later flight. Protection
from a counterparty you cannot trust is indeed a matir for geneivas daas.

Of course, that motive possibly never crossed the skiplagger's mind.

And to reiterate where I opened: all of this assuming you didn't ignore
wording on the web page that explicitly ruled out skiplagging.

In any case, I hope I gave enough Choshein Mishpat fodder to wake up
this conversation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to
Author: Widen Your Tent mend."
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20250227/628ead16/attachment-0001.htm>