[Avodah] Kamtza BaKamtza - Has anyone seen Meforshim who comment on this perspective?

[Micha Berger]

On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 08:51:08PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> R Micha posted re The Rabbis placating Agrippa - You ARE our brother, Sota
> 41
> that the medrash identifies R Zekhariah ben Avqulus who the gemara (Gittin
> 55b) identifies as the one responsible for preventing the blemished animal
> to be offered on the Mizbeiach.

Also, that the gemara makes a point of mentioning that rabbanim were at
the party and were silent, and their their silence was the central part
of why Bar Qamtza was hurt.

   Amar: Ho'il vehavo yasvei rabbanan vela machu beih...

And... the medrash's girsa says identifies R Zekhariah ben Avqulus as a
party attendee. From Eikhah Rabba 4:3
https://www.sefaria.org/Eikhah_Rabbah.4.3
    Vehayah sham R Zekhariah ben Avqulus,
    vehaysah seifeq* beyado limchos,
    velo michah.
    Meyad nefeiq leih...

(* Or whatever the nequdos needed to say "enough" [as in maspiq], rather
than safeiq.)

My point was that the story continues with his refusal to pasqen as a way
to illustrate the flaw that led to his silence at the original offense.

The story as I see the gemara's emphasis is not about the the lack of
self-confidence to pasqen. RZbA being typical of the era's rabbinate,
they lacked the self-confidence to fight the generation's sin'ah, and
the lack was so bad they couldn't even pasqen.


On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 05:08:54PM +0200, Arie Folger via Avodah wrote:
> If we want to understand Rabbi Zekharya Ben Avkulos, shouldn't we analyze
> his position from a perspective that he's right, even if just for the
> moment we try to understand him?

We should understand his motives from his own perspective, but...

R Yochanan not only held he erred, but tells us that RZbA erred because of
a flawed middah. Not simply working with a misunderstanding of the facts.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

R
> 
> and also identifies him or more accurately his quality of misplaced modesty
> - Anvanuso shel R Zekhariah be Avqulus as being the foundation for the
> disaster
>     hecherivah es beiteinu
>     vesaraf es Heikhaleinu
>     vehiglisanu meiArtzeinu.
> 
> Now although R Micha points out that bBlame is CLEARLY laid at the
> leadership's feet,
> I am asking that it seems not to be pointed to their cruelty and
> indifference at the party
> but to their internal deliberations about Halacha
> and pardon me for saying this,
> but this seems to be misplaced and a diversion from the essence of the real
> issue
> 
> R Micha suggests that those who refuse their duty as leaders
> will follow black letter law, be machmir improperly
> and not have the fortitude to rely on his own seikhel.
> 
> again perhaps this is true
> but it still fails to be attentive to their insensitivity, their
> indifference
> and quite likely their jaundiced perspective of their duties and
> relationship with HKBH and with the people
> they seem to have fallen into the trap of believing that not crossing the
> rich a powerful was the best way to lead the community


-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF