[Avodah] Kli Sheni

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 08:36:16AM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote:
> Has anyone here ever looked into the physics of Kli Sheni?

AhS Yomi was recently there in hilkhos taaroves. (Which I assume could
be why 

When it comes to Shabbos, since the melakhah is haMevasheil, being a
cook, rather than cooking in general, one can talk about "derekh bishul"
and rule out a keli sheini that way.

But when it comes to pelitas issur... A keli rishon full of 160deg F
soup isn't going to cook meat any less than a keli sheini that has been
holding a gallon of 211deg soup for the past 2 minutes.

The fact that a keli sheini that is at yad soledes bo isn't treated
like a keli rishon that is yad soledes bo tells me that physics is the
wrong discipline.

I would invoke the same idea I invoked to justify continue using
Aristotilian ideas of impetus to define hotza'ah, instead of Newtonian
momentum. (Ymi Shabbos, vilna 65a) We are less concerned with what
objectively happens than what the human gut expects to happen. I spell
it out at
https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2011/04/24/aristotle-science-and-halakhah/

Aristo didn't conduct experiments. So his Natural Philosophy is based
on what people expect to happen. He was very good at systemetizing such
expectations. So, he is more usable for halakhah than science is.

This then dovetails well with tartegrades or other microscopic animals
being kosher. Another area where science posits things we don't expect
or experience.

And if the whole reason is that halakhah's purpose is to refine the self
/ help one achieve deveiqus (nod to "Forks"), then it makes sense that
what matters is how people react on a primal level below what they know
in the abstract.

Broadening it that way would allow safeiq vs qavua, the current AhSY
topic, to be under the same umbrella.

You / RYGB once pointed me to this quote from BeTorato shel Rav Gedalia
(pg 52-53 http://www.zootorah.com/controversy/Hebrewbooks_org_37016.pdf#page31 )
    This is the reason to distinguish between "kol deparish" and "qavua":
    When we find a piece of meat outdoors and want to establish its
    characteristics -- with regard to this piece, all the stores in the
    city are one "mixture" from which this piece came. This "mixture" is
    the background behind this piece, and we establish the characteristics
    of this piece according to collective substance of the mixture,
    that is to say, according to the majority of stores.

    In contrast to this, when a person enters a store and buys meat
    there -- the stores are not a mixture one with the other. Rather,
    every store is known and recognized in its place. And if afterwards
    he wants to remember which store he bought from and it cannot be
    recalled, truthfully he must relate to it as an unknown. ...
...
    In truth we find this distinction also in relation to human nature.
    A person knows that there is a treif store and other kosher stores.
    He will be cautious of the treif store, and it stance in his
    awareness on its own. If by chance he enters the store and forgest
    where he entered, he knows he is in a situation of doubt. Which is
    unlike someone who finds meat outside the stores, here everything
    is reduced to this [one] piece of meat. There is not clear issur,
    and it is more fitting to rely on majority. And in general, this
    is the idea in all prohibitions and all mitzvos, that the halachic
    limits are set according to human impressions and attitudes.

More on sadeiq and Phenomenalism at
https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2018/01/24/phenomenalism-baruch-shekivanti

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   or something in your life actually attracts more
Author: Widen Your Tent      of the things that you appreciate and value into
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.