[Avodah] taker but not giver

[Zev Sero]

On 14/3/23 14:20, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Since in general mishum eivah does not refer to murderous rage, allowing
> chilul Shabbos for mishum eivah would itself be the very case.

But where do you find such a heter mishum eiva anywhere in halachos 
shabbos?  The poskim of the 19th century couldn't simply invent a new 
category of heter.  They had to be building on one that already existed. 
  Where do you find it, if not pikuach nefesh?


> In other words, your argument boils down to the quite circular: This
> isn't chillul Shabbos for the sake of anything but piquach nefesh and
> I can prove it because there aren't any such cases of chillul Shabbos
> for the sake of anything but piquach nefesh.

Find me another grounds for heter of chilul shabbos.  Avoda in the beis 
hamikdash is a second grounds, but it doesn't fit.  So if you want this 
not to be a subset of pikuach nefesh you need to find a third.


> (It isn't even clear that piquach nefesh is a matir for chilul Shabbos.
> It appears only a chance of further shemiras Shabbos is. The effect is
> similar, but only for a subset of potential victims.)

It is clear that its' a matir, because of Vachai Bahem.  Chilul shabbos 
is mutar even for a goses, where we know he will not ever be able to 
keep another shabbos.


> Are you seriously suggesting achronim in the 19th cent changed halakhah?
> Obviously no matter what, we are assuming the metzi'us changed, not
> the set of permitted activities.

Exactly.  Which is why, if you say that when they newly permitted 
something that had never been permitted before, they were fitting it not 
into the category of pikuach nefesh, which was already a 
long-established category of heter, but rather into some other category, 
then you must show how that category already existed before their heter. 
  And you must show that whatever prior use you think was made of that 
new category was in fact that, and not simply a subset of pikuach 
nefesh.  You are the one who is multiplying entities, to use Occam's 
language, so the onus of proof is on you.

-- 
Zev Sero            “Were we directed from Washington when to sow
zev at sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.”
		    –Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.