[Avodah] taker but not giver

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 10:02:06AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> > What are the grounds for saying that mishum eivah ever means "because
> > otherwise they may come to hate us enoug to kill us"? In other contexts
> > it means "because it fosters hatred, and hatred is bad."
> 
> Because there is no basis for permitting chilul shabbos simply to avoid
> "hatred".  The only heter we are given is pikuach nefesh, so we have to be
> able to relate it to that.

This is simply presuming your conclusion, isn't it?

> And also because any explanation we come up with has to explain why before
> 1800 it was *completely forbidden* to do this, and all the poskim insisted
> we should *not* be concerned about eiva...

This is true either way. Under the Romans, grounds for slaughter were
pretty arbitrary, and all the more so for subjugated peoples who had a
long history of rebellion. How could anything be permitted in the 1800s
that weren't permitted in your perception of Chazal's Israel?

I simply think you're mistaken, and the error is so entranched because
it is what we were taught as kids, that your defense is based on the
very assumptions you're defending.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 I always give much away,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
Author: Widen Your Tent              -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF