[Avodah] Fwd: child convert

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 2:55pm EDT, R Joel Rich wrote:
> Interesting. I wonder if that means from a practical standpoint that if the
> child says I don't really believe in any of this but I choose to be
> socially orthodox a la Jay Lefkowitz is the conversion still accepted? If
> so what does this say about the general requirement for accepting mitzvot
> for converts?

I said this already while this was lost in my "drafts" folder, but as
an aside. To spell out the thought:

In general geirus has a problem because we cannot read minds. If someone
not a qatan who wants to be a geir simply lies to themself about qabbalas
ol mitzvos, maybe because they are emotionally invested in their new
social group? Or maybe, say... geirei arayos? And then they report to the
beis din that they accept mitzvos when really it's about something else.

So, as we know from the case of geirei arayos, lekhatchilah we try
to avoid the problem, and not accept a geir who is likely to have an
ulterior motive that will motivate fooling themself. (Or outright lying
to beis din.)

This would impact what kind of qabbalah is required for ol mitzvos, and
thus what kind of volition is required.

--

I have a theory about leratzon which may also be applicable. Formed it
looking at kofin oso ad sheyomar "rotzeh ani!" It works in two cases,
gittin and sales. In contrast to gifts. With a machloqes rishonim about
whether a significantly mispriced sale is valid with that kind of "rotzeh
ani".

There are two definitions of the word "rotzeh" (or "want"). I could want
to do X after having weighed all the pros and cons. Or, I could say I
"want" do to X, but I have other desires and motives that overall make me
choose not to. "Ratzon" as one desire among many.

In the case of a sale, there is definitely a ratzon in the second sense.
And the Rambam famously saying that a gett that is required by BD is
not me'usah with this kind of "rotzeh ani" because we could assume any
observant Jew has a ratzon to fulfill a chiyuv -- I would suggest also
"ratzon" in this second sense. (Notice that we talk about avoiding a
gett me'usah, not oneis.)

I am wondering whether the question of the youth's volition is also one
of just making sure the ratzon is expressed beyond devarim shebeleiv.
And that there can be a qabbalas ol mitzvos just on the assumption that
someone following the way their were raised have a ratzon. Even if they
have other retzonos saying otherwise.

Or maybe we don't have to get that elaborate, and go back to my first
thought. Beis din can only assess what is visible. If they cannot ask
because the window of time in which the question can be answered is
never known, then all they have to go with is action.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger                 Weeds are flowers too
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   once you get to know them.
Author: Widen Your Tent -- Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
-- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF