[Avodah] Gluten free oats

[Akiva Miller]

.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> 1- Does "chameishes minim" and the idea that all 5 are subtypes
> of chitah & se'orah have anything to do with biology? ...
>
> 2- Does the difference between chameitz and sircha really boil
> down to gluten? If chameitz had a scientific definition similar
> to "leavened", then why the limitation on which liquids are in
> the dough? ...

I won't pretend to have *learned* it, but I did *read* the first few pages
of the Yerushalmi on Challah, and I'm fascinated by it. I recommend it to
anyone who has access to the ArtScroll, especially English page 1b1.

If I'm understanding it correctly, while it is true that chitah and se'orah
are mentioned in the Torah by name, the other three grains aren't, and
Chazal had no problem conducting experiments, to find empirical evidence
about which grains produce chimutz and which produce sirchon. These
experiments were so extensive that the Yerushalmi mentions some grains
about which the evidence was inconclusive and/or debated. It even talks
about whether a chopped apple in dough can develop chimutz.

Why is this discussion in Challah instead of Pesachim? The Mishna Challah
opens with the assertion that only doughs of the Five Minim are obligated
in challah, and that this is learned from a connection of "lechem-lechem",
teaching us that only the sort of lechem that is relevant to Pesach (i.e.,
can become chametz or matzah) is the sort of lechem that is relevant to
challah.

So my answer to RMB's first question is that the difference between the
Five Grains and All Other Grains has nothing to do with Torah, and
everything to do with Science.

There is no Mesorah, or Halacha LMoshe Misinai, or anything like that,
which instructs us about the difference between chametz and matzah. Rather,
Chazal knew chimutz when they saw it, and they knew sirchon when they saw
it, and (despite some inconclusive or arguable datapoints) that is the sum
total of what we have to go by. Their peer-reviewed findings were published
in the Yerushalmi, subject to the interpretations of sages through the
centuries. Tze Ul'mad about  the five grains, and about other grains, and
about mei peiros, etc etc etc.

And my answer to RMB's second question is: Your very question illustrates
how little we know about this stuff. To the best of our knowledge, mei
peiros are mostly water and should therefore cause chimutz, but in fact
they cause sirchon (Rambam as cited by MB 462:4 and Shaar Hatziyun 462:3).
Maybe we have been fooled and gluten has nothing to do with chimutz; or
maybe gluten does cause chimutz but the sugar content inhibits it. Who
knows? Who even has a way of figuring it out?

To figure it out, we would have to find someone who can tell the difference
between chimutz and sirchon by looking at it. And they died ages ago. I am
reminded of a conversation we had here a few years ago, regarding whether
modern kitchen utensils absorb flavors like Chazal's utensils did. It is
very tempting to say that ours are much smoother and cleaner, but without a
proper Control Group it is all just conjecture.

Akiva Miller

PS: RMB also asked:

> (Tangent: Dew and other water are considered different liquids,
> e.g. in makhshirei tum'ah. Would dough made with dew only be
> assur derabbanan?)

Mechaber 466:5 says that dew *IS* machmitz. See there for several other
water-based liquids which are or are not machmitz. (BTW, I'm no expert in
this. I simply googled "chametz dew", and the sixth hit was exactly what I
was looking for.)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20220426/7b344f73/attachment-0003.htm>