[Avodah] Gluten free oats

[Akiva Miller]

.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> The Yerushalmi (Challah 1b; Pesachim 17a) records a dispute
> between the Chakhamim, who said that chameitz cannot be made
> from rice flour, and Rabbi Yochanan ben Nuri who said that it
> could. So, the gemara suggests, "So check it!" A scientific
> determination! ...
> ...
> To the Rabanan, the physical state they saw when they looked at
> what happened to rice dough was in the halachic set of states
> we call "sirchon", to Rabbi Yochanan ben Nuri, the result is
> "chimutz". Knowing the science is not enough to know how to
> categorize it halachically. ...

RMB is presuming that chimutz and sirchon are halachic categories. That
idea had not occurred to me; from the context of the story, I had presumed
that they are scientific (linguistic, culinary) categories. But now that I
am thinking about it, I don't think there is any real evidence to support
either view. All we really know from the Gemara is that they disagreed
about what conclusions can be drawn from the experiment, even though they
both saw the results with their own eyes. This does not prove that
chimutz/sirchon don't have objective scientific definitions - It is an
everyday occurrence that scientists disagree about how to interpret the
results of their own experiments!

To what may the matter be compared? Let's take an example of dam nida. Two
qualified people look at the same stain, and one feels the color is tamei
while the other feels that the color is tahor. One possibility is that they
would both describe that color the exact same way, but one understands that
particular shade to be tamei while the other holds that shade to be tahor.
There is no disagreement about the facts, only about what RMB might call
"the halachic set of states we call 'tamei'".

But there is another reason they might disagree. It could be that they
perceive the color itself differently. One looks at it and feels that the
particular shade of red is in the tamei category, but the other looks at
the same stain and feels that it isn't really red at all, but that it looks
more like another color. If that sounds crazy, look again at "The dress". (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress)

> Besides, if chameitz were experimentally defined, wouldn't
> wheat with 100% apple juice also be chameitz deOraisa?

Logically, you're making a good point. Logically, apple juice (with its
high water content) ought to cause chimutz just like water does. But it
seems to me that our culinary experience has proven to all of us that it
doesn't.

It seems to me that some defining characteristics of leavened bread is its
fluffiness and stringiness. Can you explain to me why mei peiros fails to
put those qualities into the dough? The overwhelming majority of breads
contain significant amounts of water, and the overwhelming majority of
cakes and cookies contain no water at all -- except for the water that's in
the eggs, and the juice, and the milk. Why don't these other ingredients
give cake batter properties similar to bread dough?

(I still remember when I first learned about Pas Habaa B'kisnin, and the
differences between Hamotzi and Mezonos. One day I spent about an hour or
two in the supermarket, looking at the ingredients of almost every package
of bread, cake, and cookie in the store (both kosher and not). I was amazed
at how almost every single bread had significant amounts of water, while
only a few cakes and cookies had even small amounts.)

Akiva Miller
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