[Avodah] YU and Torah U Madda today

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Mar 07, 2022 at 08:07:53PM +0000, Allen Gerstl wrote:
> I believe there is a fourth approach, that of the RAMBAM. In the latter,
> "secular studies" become kodesh as a part of Talmud i.e. a means to
> see the greatness and glory of HKB"H through his creations; and thus as
> a path to fulfilling the mitzvah of Ahavat Hashem. This is not a means
> only as per Rav Hirsch of participating in "yishuvo shel olam" and not as
> only as a handmaiden of other Torah studies such as geometry for Ervin,
> but a subpart of the third section of Torah learning after Mikrah and
> Mishnah after the previous two are well-learned.

First, do you know where the Tambam says this? Because his definition
of talmud in 1:2 only talks about the means of deriving new halakhah
from pesuqim and pre-existing halakhah. For that matter, his definition
of Talmud Torah is entirely Miqra (Tanakh), Mishnah (Halakhah Pesuqah)
and this definition of Gemara.

Hashkafah and understanding the glory of HQBH are mentioned as means to
ahavas and yir'as Hashem in Yesodei haTorah 2:2, and not talmud Torah
at all.

And, recall that in the Rambam's world, there was no line between
philosophy and science. Aristotle's Metaphysics was just that, the book
after Physics. Instead of science there was Natural Philosophy, and
all that metaphysics about intellects is what causes all the motion the
physics is about. So I am not sure how to extend the Rambam's worldview
to ours. He didn't so much deny the line between Torah and Maddah as
not invent a line between Metaphysics and Natural Philosophy, and thus
hashkafah blends into proto-science.


Second, I think you understate RSRH's position. Derekh Eretz is part of
being refined. It's not simply a pragmatic means of living in the world
or understanding Torah, it is part of the Mensch-Israel ideal. And, the
union is not only about us learning from Yefet's sciences and liberal
arts, it is two directional. He equally talks about Sheim being the
moral voice in general society.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 If you won't be better tomorrow
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   than you were today,
Author: Widen Your Tent      then what need do you have for tomorrow?
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov