[Avodah] A "Coal" of Metal

[Chana Luntz]

RMB writes:

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:05:04PM -0000, Chana Luntz wrote:
> Whereas in the case of it going to a "coal" or melting, is it 
> necessarily the case that it is glowing? ...

<<Yes, I am taking it for granted that the word "gacheles" refers to
something that glows. I used the word "coal", but had I thought of the word
at the time, I think I would have used "ember".

And "an ember of metal" would be glowing hot metal, no?>>

I wasn't necessarily thinking about the general case, but about the Rambam's
usage, because the problem seems to lie in the Rambam.  And note there is
yet another key Rambam  at Hilchot Shabbat perek 12 in halacha 2 where
actually uses the term gacheles of metal and makes it clear that is
extinguishing:

המכבה כל שהוא חייב, אחד המכבה את הנר ואחד המכבה את הגחלת של עץ, אבל המכבה
גחלת של מתכת פטור, ואם נתכוין לצרף חייב, שכן לוטשי הברזל עושים מחמים את
הברזל עד שיעשה גחלת ומכבין אותו במים כדי לחסמו, וזהו לצרף שהעושה אותו חייב
והוא תולדת מכבה, * ומותר לכבות גחלת של מתכת ברשות הרבים כדי שלא יזוקו בה
רבים,

"One who extinguishes any amount is chayav, whether he extinguishes a candle
or whether he extinguishes a coal of wood, but a coal of metal he is patur,
and if he intends to harden it, he is chayav, because so the polishers of
iron do when they heat the iron until they make coals and they extinguish
them in water in order to harden them, and this is the hardening that makes
one chayav, and it is a toldah of extinguishing, and it is permitted to
extinguish a coal of metal in the public domain in order that it should not
injure the multitude."

So you seem to have: melt metal (to work it) or heat it to a coal  to quench
in water (bishul);
Extinguish a coal of metal  patur, unless in order to strengthen it, then
chayav kibui
Heats to quench in water (without the reference to a coal) mavir

I agree with you it is very odd.  And it seems even odder if you then see
that it is only extinguishing if you intend to strengthen it, otherwise it
is patur (but if you are extinguishing it aren't you for sure acknowledging
it was lit?).   That seems to make the AHS explanation also difficult.
Somehow trying to understand that coal in the Rambam's language might mean
something other than glowing hot metal seemed the best way around, say it
means only blackened metal (which because it is hot, is still considered
kibui). I am not saying it works with the classic understanding of the term,
just that how else do you explain the Rambam? 


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Regards

Chana