[Avodah] When was Pi haAretz created?

Micha Berger micha at aishdas.org
Mon Jun 14 11:14:48 PDT 2021


On Tue, Jun 08, 2021 at 07:43:29PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> > But, what Moshe (Bamidbar 16:30) says is, "ve'im beri'ah
> > yivra H' ufatzesa ha'adamah es piha..."
> > But according to Avos, the mouth was already created well
> > before Moshe spoke!?
...
> Read the words carefully. The new creation is not the earth's mouth. The
> mouth already existed. Perhaps it was even a well-known geological
> formation.

So you are arguing that "beri'ah" can refer to an event, rather than an
object or place?

I find the idea startling. I thought the whole point of asiyah meaning
both "doing" and generic "making" was because it's in that niche.

I don't see how to get the whole yeish mei'ayin implication would fit
an event that happens with / performed by pre-existing objects.



On Tue, Jun 08, 2021 at 09:18:00PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> As RMB often points out, HKBH is outside time, so to talk of when He creates
> something is confusing...

I do often point that out, but I don't think it works here.

The idea you're referring to is my observation that one cannot talk about
when Hashem decided to do something. Saying Hashem rewarded someone in
response to their mitzvah and saying that He set up a system by which
the mitzvah causes its own reward are really identical. Because His
"Decision" to reward a person has no time. Saying each happens in response
to the action, or the whole system was set up that way initially are just
time-bound models for a timeless "Decision".

But the actual reward does have a well-defined "when". It is an event
that happens to a human being living within the timeline.

Similarly, the pi ha'aretz started existing at a given when.

For that matter, there are bechirah chafshi problems if the prayer is
answered before it is made. Again, Hashem "Decided" to answer the prayer
in a timeless way, but the answer itself, the effects within this world's
timeline, have to post-date the prayer. Or else, what's left of Moshe
Rabbeinu's bechirah to daven?

> was done so because Moshe in the year 2451 was going to call on Hashem to
> create it.  Hashem, answering Moshe's prayer, created the world that way.

In any case, I didn't ask about Moshe praying for the earth to open, but
his calling for something new as a conditional, "Ve'im beri'ah yivrah H',
ufatzesah ha'adamah es piha uval'ah osam..."

In my OP, I associated "beri'ah" with the pi ha'aretz, not the opening,
for the reason given in the first part of this email. But that's not
"yivrah", it's "bara".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but to become a tzaddik.
Author: Widen Your Tent                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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