[Avodah] Are We Trying To Grow?

[Akiva Miller]

.
I wrote:

> Similar (perhaps identical) complaints are often raised by
> schoolchildren. And yet we continue to send our children to school,

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> One does not hear such complaints from children who have good,
> qualified teachers. If the instructor is interesting and knows how
> to present material, the children will look forward to going to school.

That is true of a small minority of children. But in my experience, the
great majority of children will do whatever they can to avoid
school, regardless of the teacher's skills. This would also seem to be the
experience of Tosfos (Shabbos 116a "Puranus") and Ramban (Bamidbar 10:35)
who found vivid imagery in the phrase "like a child fleeing from school."

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> Let me give you a concrete example of a Rov who clearly raised
> the level of observance and Torah learning of his baalei batim,
> and how he did it.

I think what you meant was that he raised the level of observance and Torah
learning of SOME OF his baalei batim. As you yourself wrote:

> When he first became the rabbi of his shul, he consciously tried to
> drive away anyone who would not follow his approach to Yahadus. ...
> Those who did not like his views and approach to Yahadus left.

I thank you for not disclosing the name of that rabbi, and I thank Hashem
for not exposing me to such a lack of tact when I started out. As someone
wrote me off-list:

> If I ever heard a Rav say "ladies cover your udders" I would
> probably never step foot in any Shul again.

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> There is a Young Israel near me where many of the older women
> come to shul with their hair not properly covered. As far as
> I know, while the rabbi has spoken about many topics, he has
> never addressed this one or any of the other aspects of Tznius
> such as sleeve and hem length. Why not? I suspect that he is
> fearful of the response if he deals forcefully with these topics.

It sounds to me like you would prefer that this rabbi *would* speak about
such things. Now I'm really confused. If you would prefer shuls that have
no rabbi and no speeches, then how would these topics be dealt with?

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> If the rabbi is an excellent speaker, then you will pay attention
> and listen carefully. I lived in Elizabeth, NJ for 6 years.
> When Rav P. M. Teitz came to the shul where I davened and spoke,
> I listened. ... Rav Shimon Schwab's addresses at Agudah Conventions
> were one of the highlights of the Agudah weekends. I am sure that
> his speeches in KAJ were just as interesting and well received.

I have no argument on this at all, except to say that we don't live in Lake
Wobegon, "where all the rabbis are above average." In the real world, most
rabbis are average, and as hard as they try, they'll be exceptionally
interesting only occasionally. You yourself understand this, as you wrote:

> Most rabbonim do not know how and hence cannot do this.

Which is why I put the responsibility on ourselves to work hard to try to
understand what the rabbi is trying to teach us, just as parents put the
responsibility on their children to work hard at understanding their
teachers - who also tend to be average (except in Lake Wobegon).

I wrote:

> If certain people are "left out" when the topic is "heavily
> focused on Torah subjects", how will they ever grow? For many
> people, especially those who for whatever reason do not attend
> minyan during the week, the rabbi's Shabbos morning speech
> will be their main (or only) exposure to any Torah thoughts at all.

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> How will women (grow) improve positively if the topic is
> heavily focused on Gemara? To the best of my knowledge, the
> overwhelming majority of Bais Yaakovs do not teach gemara to
> their students.

Where did I mention Gemara?

RYL seems to have interpreted "heavily focused on Torah subjects" as
"heavily focused on Gemara". That's sad and unfortunate, but that's
the message that today's frum society keeps drumming into our heads. I too
would have fallen victim to this alleged equivalence, but many years ago I
made a conscious decision to resist it. Gemara is a very important part of
Torah, but it is not equivalent to Torah itself.

I suggested some questions to demonstrate why a shul needs a specific
leader to pasken issues for the shul, such as:

> How early can we daven maariv?
> How early can we count sefira?

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> Check with MyZmanim.com - Instant zmanim for anywhere
> in the world

Really? MyZmanim is great for giving you the scientific data. But it
doesn't pasken. My screen is open to MyZmanim right now, and I see 4
different versions of "72 minutes" and one more for "90 minutes". And it
doesn't offer any suggestions at all about the possibility of davening
maariv and/or counting sefira at sunset or a short while after sunset.

Over the decades, I have seen shuls that begin maariv 0, 5, 8, 10, 15, 18,
20 minutes after sunset, and probably a few other variants too. In my
opinion, this is not a question that should be paskened by the whims of the
baalei batim. (By the way, I know many communities that end Shabbos 42, 45,
or 50 fixed minutes after sunset, none of which appear in MyZmanim.)

My question:

> Which hechsherim are okay for a shul-sponsored kiddush?

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> A rabbi should be able to establish guidelines, but in my
> experience many do not have the proper knowledge. In
> discussions with one rabbi, it quickly became clear that I
> knew more about the intricacies of kashrus than he did. For
> the record, this rabbi was a first rate talmud chocham.

What's your point? No one can be excellent at everything.

My questions:

> If a problem is found in the Sefer Torah, is it pasul?
> If the baal koreh makes a mistake, does he have to repeat it?

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> Shouldn't the Baal Kriah be knowledgeable enough to answer
> these questions? If he isn't, then should he be leining?

Ideally, yes, it would be great if the Baal Kriah were that knowledgeable.
But not every shul has enough such people. Many shuls have a number of
volunteers who struggle at memorizing the laining. Not to mention Bar
Mitzvah boys.

Without a rabbi to decide these things, it is all too likely that there
will be disagreements among the people.

My question:

> Which kibudim (if any) can be given to a non-shomer
> Shabbos who comes for a bar mitzvah?

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> Is their really any agreement on the answer to this situation?

Exactly my point! Would you prefer the membership to be divided on the
issue, or for the rabbi of the shul to issue a psak that everyone will
follow? I really don't understand your (apparent) preference that a shul
should not have a rabbi at all.

I closed my post by quoting RYL <<< Davening is routine every week.
>>> with my response:

> That's not the answer. That's the PROBLEM!
> I'm not suggesting that most rabbis can successfully fix that
> problem. Or even that a minority have been successful. But if
> one's preference is to have no rabbi at all, he is surrendering.

R' Yitzchok Levine asked:

> Surrendering to what? Is he under attack and if so, by whom?

Yes, we are under attack, by the yetzer hara!

I titled this thread "Are We Trying To Grow?" I apologize for not
clarifying that I meant SPIRITUAL growth. Shouldn't we all be trying to
become better Jews than we were yesterday?

I like to think that the chevra here on Avodah are actively involved in
trying to improve themselves spiritually. A few hours ago, R' Micha Berger
posted in this thread how this growth can be in various different
directions. And that's fine - just as long as you're growing in some
direction or another. The problem is complacency, when people are satisfied
and aren't trying to grow.

If someone is dissatisfied with their shul's rabbi, that's okay, provided
that what they want is a *better* rabbi. If what they want is *no* rabbi,
then how are they different from the child who is fleeing from school?

Akiva Miller
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