[Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 04:27:08PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini:

There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh.

> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli
> sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is
> permitted even though it cooks.

Brisk.

> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in
> general a kli sheini doesn't cook.

Telzh.

Except that I would say, "it isn't mevasheil". You cannot assume bishul
has the same limits as cooking. We are talking about a tradition in
which a bat is a kind of owf.

Let's look at ofos for a second, because I find it easier to illustrate
my proposed general rule with a noun.

We say that an "owf" is a "bird", but that's really only shorthand. One
syllable is much easier to teach with than having to say and write
"flying living thing".

There is still an empirical fact being described. One needn't say that
owf, e.g. in the laws of owfos tehoros, is just a category with no
empirical basis. But the fact isn't the one we have an easy at-hand
English word. Wrong culture.


Similarly here, bishul needn't be some Brisker chalos sheim. But it could
be a range of physical changes in a substance defined by the use of fire
and not e.g. toledos hachamah. I mean, Chazal knew what changes chamei
Teveriah were capable of, they just didn't know how the hot springs
were hot. But they still made whether it is mevasheil depend on whether
it was heated by the sun or by volcanic processes

When you get to a keli sheini, you are at quite a remove from the fire,
although the heat must be fire-derived heat. OTOH, when you are dealing
with kalei bishul, you are closer to the idea of trigerring a physical
change.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 What we do for ourselves dies with us.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   What we do for others and the world,
Author: Widen Your Tent      remains and is immortal.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Albert Pine