From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 26 06:05:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 14:05:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? A. In a previous Halacha Yomis we discussed the prohibition of molid rei?ach (causing the absorption of a fragrance or scent). Our current question revolves around whether this restriction applies to the human body as well. This is a matter of dispute among poskim. The Shevet Halevi (1:137) was asked whether using mouthwash on Shabbos is prohibited because of molid rei?ach. He notes that the Taz (511:8), Magen Avrohom (511:11) and Shulchan Aruch Harav (511:7) restrict washing hands with scented water on Shabbos because of molid rei?ach. Obviously, these poskim hold that molid rei?ach applies to the human body as well. However, the Mishnah Berurah (128:23) writes that many Acharonim did not accept this stringency of not using scented water on Shabbos. For example, the Chacham Tzvi (92) proves that molid rei?ach does not apply to the body, since Shulchan Aruch (OC 322:5) permits rubbing scented sticks between one's fingers to release the scent even though the fingers will absorb the fragrance. Accordingly, the Mishnah Berurah makes the following distinction. Adding scented oil to water on Shabbos is prohibited but washing one's hands with previously scented water is acceptable. Some poskim question whether the leniency of the Mishnah Berurah regarding handwashing with scented water applies to other parts of the body. Some suggest that there is room for greater leniency with respect to hands because the scent dissipates quickly (see Piskei Teshuvos 322:7). However, the Shevet Haleivi equates the entire body to hands and allows the use of mouthwash on Shabbos. Similarly, Shmiras Shabbos K?hilchaso (14:36) allows applying perfume on Shabbos (based on the Mishna Berurah), though he cautions against spraying it on clothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 25 14:14:48 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:14:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government Message-ID: Please see pages 6 - 8 of Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" sIIRC Rav Yisroel Salanter would quietly say the prayer for the government if he wad davening in a place that did not say it. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 24 06:48:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 14:48:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Coming of Moshiach Message-ID: I have posted Rav Shimon Schwab's essay on this topic at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/coming_of_moshiach.pdf This essay was written in 1974. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:42:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:42:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: Why didn't Yeshoshua ask HKB"H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Jan 26 16:03:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:03:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70ec8204-43df-9e0b-41fd-6f365220a817@sero.name> > *Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" On page 5 of this pamphlet the author writes that the hooligans of Berachos 10a who harassed R Meir were not Jewish. He gives no source for this, and I wonder where he gets it. I have always assumed they were Jewish and have never seen anything saying otherwise. If they weren't I would have expected the gemara to say so. As far as the prayer for the king is concerned, historically the fact is that in the Russian empire it was not said except in the large shuls where the Czar was likely to know what was happening. But I understand that in the Austro-Hungarian empire it was said everywhere, because the Jews actually liked the Kaiser, and vice versa. The author claims that "The tefillah does not mention a single king but rather a kingdom, since this applies even when there is a democracy". This is just not the case. Every single siddur I have seen with Hanosen Teshua, except in the USA, uses the sovereign's name. He cites Tiferes Yisrael as his source, but the Tiferes Yisrael does not refer at all to the tefillah that is said, but only to the mishnah that recommends the practice. And he does not mention democracy, even though the USA and France existed in his day; what he says is that the mishnah includes countries that are ruled by a group of leaders. In my opinion this nusach is completely inappropriate to the USA, and those shuls here who wish to pray for the country or for the government should use a different nusach written especially for that country. I have seen such nuscha'os printed in various places, that are not simply rewrites of Hanosen Teshua. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:43:41 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:43:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction Message-ID: Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a brother? What was the value at that point? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 06:27:08 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 16:27:08 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a Message-ID: There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is permitted even though it cooks. 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Many of the Rishonim state explicitly that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a metzius. The Rashba there in Shabbos 34b, the Yeraim quoted by many other rishonim and others. Tosafos there also seems to say this because they explain the difference between a kli rishon and a kli sheini based on metzius, that a kli rishon has hot walls while a kli sheini doesn't. The gemara about kalei habishul seems to support this position. The simple reading of the gemara (39a and other places) is that there are certain things that are easily cooked and you are chayav if you cook them in a kli sheini. If it was a din then how wcould you be chayav by kalei habishul? None of the Rishonim (that I saw) say explicitly that it is a din (however see Tosafos shabbos 42a where they discuss a hot bath and other Rishonim (Ramban, Ritva) which could be interpreted this way). However the Ohr Sameach (hilchos shabbos perek 9) goes with this idea explicitly, and explains it as follows. He says that the gemara states that cooking in halacha is defined as by fire or the result of a fire. He says that a kli sheini is so far removed from the fire that it can't be called toldos haeish and therefore is not considered cooking in halacha. This is similar to the din that cooking in the sun is not considered cooking. He explains that kalei habishul is a gezera because people do cook kalei habishul in a kli sheini therefore they prohibited it m'drabbanan. There are a number of practical differences in halacha regarding this question, I will mention 2 of them: 1. If the kli sheini is really hot. The Chayei Adam based on a Rambam in Maaser Sheni holds that if the kli sheini is boiling hot (if you touch it you will get burned) then the rule of kli sheini ayno mevashel doesn't apply. This is clearly going with 2, that it is a metzius, according to the Ohr Sameach it shouldn't matter. 2. Is there a kula of kli shlishi? The Mishna Berura quotes a Pri megadim who is meikel by a kli shlishi by kalei habishul, that you would be permitted to put them in a kli shlishi. The Chazon Ish and others disagree. they hold that there is no difference between a kli sheini and a kli shlishi based on Tosafos, both have cold walls and both have the same amount of heat. If you hold like 2 then the kula of kli shlishi makes no sense. However according to the Ohr Sameach that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a din and the humra by kalei habishul is only a din drabbanan, then it makes sense to say that the gezera was only made on a kli sheini and not on a kli shlishi. At first glance opinion 1 (din) seems much more logical then 2. It seems very difficult to say that the gemara is telling us a metzius without qualifying it. If the Chayei Adam is right how come the gemara didn't warn us about it. The Chayei Adam's scenario is not so uncommon and leads to an issur d'oraysa. The gemara's statement lends itself to be interpreted as a general principle in halacha not a metzius. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 27 06:54:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:54:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?_Tu=92bishvat_is_the_Rosh_Hashanah_=28n?= =?windows-1252?q?ew_year=29_for_trees=2E_What_does_this_mean=3F?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Thursday, January 28th, will be Tu?bishvat, (the fifteenth day of the month of Shvat). Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? A. There is a seven-year cycle of terumos and ma?aseros (various tithes) for produce that grows in the land of Israel. To determine which tithes must be separated, one must know in which year the produce grew. The calendar year for fruit begins on Tu?bishvat. If a fruit reached a certain stage of development called ?onas ha?maaser? before Tu?bishvat, this fruit belongs to last year?s crop and should be tithed accordingly. Fruit that reaches the stage of ?onas ha?maaser? only after Tu?bishvat, belongs to the new year and must be tithed accordingly. One exception to this rule is the esrog, which is tithed according to the year in which it is picked, regardless of when it reaches ?onas ha?maaser? (Shulchan Aruch YD 331:125-126). Tu?bishvat is relevant outside of Israel as well. Tu?bishvat plays a role in the counting of years as relates to the laws of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years). This will be discussed further in tomorrow?s Halacha Yomis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 16:07:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:07:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128000739.GE25301@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 04:27:08PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli > sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is > permitted even though it cooks. Brisk. > 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in > general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Telzh. Except that I would say, "it isn't mevasheil". You cannot assume bishul has the same limits as cooking. We are talking about a tradition in which a bat is a kind of owf. Let's look at ofos for a second, because I find it easier to illustrate my proposed general rule with a noun. We say that an "owf" is a "bird", but that's really only shorthand. One syllable is much easier to teach with than having to say and write "flying living thing". There is still an empirical fact being described. One needn't say that owf, e.g. in the laws of owfos tehoros, is just a category with no empirical basis. But the fact isn't the one we have an easy at-hand English word. Wrong culture. Similarly here, bishul needn't be some Brisker chalos sheim. But it could be a range of physical changes in a substance defined by the use of fire and not e.g. toledos hachamah. I mean, Chazal knew what changes chamei Teveriah were capable of, they just didn't know how the hot springs were hot. But they still made whether it is mevasheil depend on whether it was heated by the sun or by volcanic processes When you get to a keli sheini, you are at quite a remove from the fire, although the heat must be fire-derived heat. OTOH, when you are dealing with kalei bishul, you are closer to the idea of trigerring a physical change. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger What we do for ourselves dies with us. http://www.aishdas.org/asp What we do for others and the world, Author: Widen Your Tent remains and is immortal. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Albert Pine From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 11:26:42 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:26:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> I don't know each stage of Tu biShvat's evolution. Was it always a holiday? In the gemara, Tu biShvat is more like a shiur -- how do you know which fruit go to which terumos uma'aseros? But by the end of the geonim, tachanun was skipped on Tu biShvat. So, even if it wasn't always a holiday, it started turning into one pretty early. Well before the *publication* (so to speak) of the Zohar. So it's not of Qabbalistic roots. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From driceman at optimum.net Wed Jan 27 16:36:43 2021 From: driceman at optimum.net (David Riceman) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:36:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >> RMB: > > There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > >> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >> sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is >> permitted even though it cooks. > > Brisk. > >> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. > > Telzh. Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos). Many years ago one of my rebbeim suggested that microwaves and solar hot water heaters weren?t bishul d?orayysa because they were uncommon, but that their status might change as they became more common. David Riceman From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 10:18:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Shevat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128181856.GE7499@aishdas.org> I asked on Areivim about the origin of Tu biShvat as a yom tov even before getting to questions about the Tu biShvat Seder and how kosher is the Seifer Chemdas Yamim. Someone emailed me this nice summary in reply. I wanted to share with the chevrah. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5009491 Below is the article from after of a discussion of Tu biShvat in Chazal as a shiur for terumos uma'aseros until they run out of history and talk about contemporary custom. About Chemdas Yamim... it's enough that it is a machloqes acharonim whether the book (1) should be treated as Sabbatean, (2) is kosher because its acceptance by so many Mequbalim Qedoshim that is happens not to contain any of the author's Sabbatean heresy (R Chaim Palaggi, Turkey, 19th cent CE), or (2) is a holy book written by R Yisrael Yaaqov al-Gazi. The way academia is structured, particularly what it takes to get published and publish-or-perish there is a built in bias toward debunking things. Too much depends on coming up with novella and their Truthiness. I am therefore skeptical of an academic consensus that shows that the benighted masses outside their ivory towers are wrong. Could be good scholarship, but there are negi'os. So I wouldn't just assume their conclusions are authoritative. (Truthiness, coined by then comedy news editorialist Stephen Colbert, to describe the things we believe because they sound true because we would like them to be true.) There are numerous examples from Middle Eastern history and Biblical Archeology I can point to, where it seems clear that out of two equally plausible theories, the author was biased to pick the one that would dethrone Yeishu. (Like, did the Judean intelligensia captured with Yechaniah teach them about the idea of a messiah and messianic era, or did we get it from Zoroastrianism? Well, saying it's not in original Judaism devalues Oso haIsh, so...) Even when it comes to some Torah journals, I got tired of picking through the articles that seem so plausible until I realized I liked them because of that feeling superiori to the benighted masses or just some clever and very Truthy. Anyway, here's the relevant half of the Chabad.org post, back on topic about Tu biShvat. Tir'u baTov! -Micha Who "Invented" the Holiday on 15 Shevat? Yehuda Shurpin chabad.org ... Yet, neither the Mishnah nor the Talmud tell us about any special celebrations or commemorations associated with the day. Earliest Celebration One of the earliest sources for the 15th of Shevat being a celebratory day is a pair of ancient liturgical poems that were found in the Cairo genizah, a trove of old Torah texts, documents and manuscripts discovered in the 19th century. The poems, composed by Rabbi Yehuda Ben Hillel Halevi around the 10th century, were meant to be added to the prayer service of the day.[9] In a response to a community that wished to establish a fast day on the 15th Shevat, Rabbeinu Gershom (c. 960-1040) explained that just as one does not fast on the other days that are called "the beginning of the year" in the Mishnah, so too, one does not fast on the 15th of Shevat.[10] Additionally, we find in early sources that one doesn't recite penitential prayers on the 15th of Shevat, just as one doesn't recite them on other holidays.[11] Eating Fruits In addition to not fasting and not reciting any penitential prayers, there is also a custom to eat fruits on this day. The first to mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) in his work Tikun Yissachar. This custom was popularized by the Kabbalists and subsequently cited in many halachic works.[12] The somewhat controversial Kabbalistic work of unknown authorship Pri Eitz Hadar (first published in Venice in 1728) was also very influential in spreading the custom to eat fruits on this day. The work includes various texts that one would recite when eating the different fruits. However, the common custom is not to recite these texts when eating fruits on the 15th of Shevat... ... [9] Eretz Yisrael, vol. 4, p. 138. [10] See Responsa of Rabbi Meir of Rottenbug (Prague ed.) 5. [11] See, for example, Maharil, Chilukei Haftorot; Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 131:6. [12] See Magen Avraham, Orach Chaim 131:16; Hashlamah to Shulchan Aruch Harav, Orach Chaim 136:8; Mishnah Berurah 131:31. From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 28 05:44:31 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:44:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?How_does_Tu=92bishvat_impact_the_counti?= =?windows-1252?q?ng_of_years_of_orlah?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. How does Tu?bishvat impact the counting of years of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years)? A. The Torah states, ?When you enter the land and plant any tree for food, you shall regard its fruit as forbidden. Three years it shall be forbidden for you, not to be eaten.? (Vayikra 19:23) From here we learn that one may not eat or derive benefit from fruit that grew during the first three years of a tree?s existence. This fruit is called orlah. This prohibition applies both in the land of Israel as well as in the diaspora. In Israel, fruit that grows in the fourth year has a special kedusha (sanctity) known as ?neta revai?. When calculating a tree?s first three years of existence for orlah, the years need not be complete. Rather, if a new tree grew for a minimum of thirty days before Rosh Hashana, this is treated as the first year of the tree's existence. It is assumed that a tree does not begin to take root and grow until fourteen days have elapsed after planting. Therefore, if a tree is planted on or before the 15 day of Av, which is 44 days before Rosh Hashana, the tree is considered one year old on Rosh Hashana, and Rosh Hashanah marks the beginning of the tree?s second year of growth. If a tree is planted less than 44 days before Rosh Hashanah, one must wait until the following Rosh Hashanah (more than a year) to complete the first year of orlah. However, even after the third Rosh Hashanah marks the completion of three years, the fruit which blossoms in the fourth year before Tu?bishvat is treated as orlah as well. This is because this fruit was nourished from sap that the tree produced before Rosh Hashana. If fruit blossomed after Tu?bishvat of the fourth year, we assume that the fruit was nourished from the current year?s sap, and the fruit is not orlah. The Shach (YD 294:10) quotes the Rosh who notes that in our climate, trees don?t ordinarily blossom before Tu?bishvat, so one may assume that all fruit that is found on the tree in the fourth year is not orlah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 27 20:01:57 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> References: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> Message-ID: As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard date is required to separate them? I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th. Or is that actually the general case, and the exact date only matters in a freak occurrence? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 03:35:39 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 06:35:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> I have often wondered the same thing about so many leaders, both Jewish and not. The precedent set by appointing Yehoshua seems to be a no-brainer, in my view. I am so often disheartened when I see an organization fall apart and descend into total factionalism when its leader passes away. So much strife could be avoided simply by grooming a successor, teaching him the required skills, and making sure that he has the allegiance of the membership. Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. It almost seems like a dereliction of duty. I'd cite examples, but that would surely spur too many bickering side-comments. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 14:04:53 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:04:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128220453.GA13382@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 07:36:43PM -0500, David Riceman via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >>> sheini is not called cooking... >> Brisk. >>> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >>> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. >> Telzh. > Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook > (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos)... I would think that's a metzi'us question, but defining the issur in terms of derekh bishul rather than bishul. That certainly fits the gemara's language, except for the one-word name of the melakhah. In terms of Brisk vs Telzh.... It would still fit under Telzh, in that it's explaining halakhah in terms of realia. Brisk would stop all explanations at halachic categories. More like the "halakhah states ... is not called ..." of number 1. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Imagine waking up tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp with only the things Author: Widen Your Tent we thanked Hashem for today! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Jan 28 20:00:07 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 04:00:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. --------------------------------- Yes and one could posit a number of reasons-some cognitive and some not. That?s what I wonder about. Behavioral psychology offers some reasons for mere mortals but?. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 28 23:16:38 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 02:16:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/1/21 5:58 pm, Alexander Seinfeld via Avodah wrote: > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 > From: Zev Sero >> As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's >> climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard >> date is required to separate them? > >> I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in >> mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't >> matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... > > The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that > time and having a suffik about it's maaser. Yes, but esrogim are different because they stay on the tree all year, and are counted according to the year in which they are picked. That rules does not apply to any other fruit. [Email #2. -micha On 28/1/21 1:18 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah [forwaded from chabad.org]: > The first to > mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in > his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) > in his work Tikun Yissachar. See the Seforim blog post that RYL linked to, which cites earlier sources that Rabbi Shurpin's sources were unaware of. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From marty.bluke at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 02:04:51 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:04:51 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] R e: May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread Message-ID: Rav Meir Twersky in Beis Yitchak suggested this as pshat in tosafos. He suggests that when tosafos explains the difference between kli rishon and kli sheini as whether the walls are hot it is not based on metzius but rather whether it is normal to cook that way. It is normal to cook in a kli rishon because the walls are hot and therefore it is prohibited. It is not normal to cook in a kli sheini because the walls are cold and therefore permitted. Likewise, by kalei habishul since they cook easily people cook then in a kli sheini and therefore you are chayav. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 13:47:11 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:47:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha Message-ID: . Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the very first thing we say after benching. ???????? ????????? ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ??????????? ??? ????????. It is composed of two similar phrases, the first of which contains the preposition "el" and the second uses the preposition "al". And yet, despite this contrast, the great majority of English Tehilims and Haggadas translate both of them as "upon". The main exception is The Psalms, with the perush of Rav RSR Hirsch. He is emphatic that "el" must be translated as "toward" and not as ?upon?. He explains that the first half refers to the nations who have merely failed to recognize God, and we pray for His anger to go *toward* them, that they might come to know and understand. It is only in the second half, which refers to the evil kingdoms who have tried to destroy us, that we pray for God's anger to pour down *upon* them. Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name". To me, both can refer to people who are simply ignorant of Hashem, or perhaps both can refer to people who actively deny Hashem. But I don't see how one group is more or less evil than the other. Perhaps he gets it by contrasting "nations" and "kingdoms". If anyone can offer ideas, I'd appreciate it. In any case, it seems clear to me that the author of this Tehillim strove to distinguish between "el" and "al", and those who recite the Haggada in English might want to take note of this. Hat tip to ArtScroll's Interlinear Tehillim, from which I've been reciting Tehillim recently. True to the advertising, I have found it very helpful in understanding what I'm saying. It really does take no more than a glance to see what the more difficult words mean. A few days ago, I wasn't even paying much attention to the English - not on a conscious level at least! But my peripheral vision was surprised to see "el" being translated as "upon", and it jarred me into further research. I will also note that although the preposition "el" is best translated as "to" or "towards" in the vast majority of cases, there are indeed some exceptions, as noted by Rashi on Bereshis 20:2. It is possible that some might consider Tehillim 79:6 to be in that category, but in my view, the contrast between "el" and "al" makes that very unlikely. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 04:27:13 2021 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 23:27:13 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Milk is Produced also by non-Kosher parts of the Cow Message-ID: The Gemara Chullin 69a documents a very strange discussion. R Yirmiyah asks - is the milk from a cow that has an Issur Yotzeh, Kosher? An Issur Yotzeh is generated when a foetus in utero extends a limb to the outside and then the mother is Shechted. That limb is permanently prohibited and cannot be made Kosher. The rest of the foetus is Kosher. The Gemara explains - ALL milk ought to be Assur, because it comes from a living animal and is like Eiver Min HaChay, and only by force of a special Limmud is it Kosher. On the one hand perhaps that also permits the milk of the cow with the Issur Yotzeh on the other hand, perhaps the Torah only permits milk from a prohibited source which CAN BE revoked via Shechita, whereas the Issur Yotzeh cannot ever be revoked which makes the milk Assur. Why is the Issur Yotzeh different from the Cheilev and Gid that are present in every cow that produces milk? Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:04:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:04:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220449.GB31611@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 03:43:41AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's > first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a > brother? What was the value at that point? isn't a parent supposed to make sure children learn from their mistakes rather than repeat them? Knowing to watch what you're saying has broad applicability in life. If Yaaqov makes sure they see they have that problem, they are that less likely to say too much in other situations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:01:31 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] min hatorah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220131.GA31611@aishdas.org> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 05:22:09PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote: > He begins his chapter on Mevo HaTalmud by saying that most matters learned > from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash, based upon > the references you and I have cited, as well as several others. So, it > comes out that Chazal had a kabalah that these matters were in Torah > Shebe-al Peh MiSinai, but knew that they were not indicated in Toras Moshe, > or could not find any such indication. But they pointed out that they found > that they were eventually committed to either explicit or drash-indicated > writing in Nach. An exception can be found in an oft-cited pasuq, in Yeshiah 57:13 (used by many in / as an introduction to Shabbos morning Qiddush). Mentions a number of shevusim, including masa umatan. I can see how a pasuq in Tanakh can be cited to show there is some TSBP that was already in place and in practice by the time the navi recorded the. But how can we prove whether those pre-existing dinim are really deOraisa? Seems that "mo "most matters learned from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash" could have numerous exceptions. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:02:59 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:02:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:04:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:04:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Soloveitchik Message-ID: Thoughts on the following as applied to Rabbi JB Soloveitchik? James Gleick-"There are two kinds of geniuses: the 'ordinary' and the 'magicians'. An ordinary genius is a fellow whom you and I would be just as good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how his mind works. Once we understand what they've done, we feel certain that we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is a magician of the highest caliber." The Feynman Algorithm: Write down the problem. Think real hard. Write down the solution. The Feynman algorithm was facetiously suggested by Murray Gell-Mann, a colleague of Feynman, in a New York Times interview. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 16:57:10 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:57:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee Message-ID: . This past August, R' Yitzhok Levine cited the OU's "Halacha Yomis": > From https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/i-will-be-travelling-and-would-like-to-know-if-there-is-a-concern-of-bishul-akum-with-coffee-a-consumers-question > I will be travelling and would like to know if there is a concern > of bishul akum with coffee? (A consumer's question) > OU Kosher Certification > > Ostensibly, the prohibition of bishul akum should apply to coffee. As > previously explained, a cooked food which cannot be eaten raw and is > "oleh al shulchan melachim" (served at fancy dinners) requires bishul > Yisroel. Raw coffee beans are inedible, a... > > See the above URL for more. In a subsequent post, I quoted the conclusion of that paragraph, which was: > Nonetheless, the Pri Chodosh writes that brewed coffee need > not be bishul Yisroel, since coffee is primarily water, and > water does not require bishul Yisroel. I have been uneasy with the idea that "primarily water" could be sufficient reason to downgrade the chashivus of a food to the point where it would be exempt from Bishul Yisroel. R' Micha Berger (in this same thread) pointed out that Bishul Yisroel and Chamar Medina seem to have different standards of chashivus. Another halacha that may be related to the above appeared in today's Halacha Yomis, at https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/must-terumah-and-maaser-tithes-be-separated-from-tea-or-herbal-leaves-that-are-grown-in-israel > Must Terumah and Ma'aser (tithes) be separated from tea or > herbal leaves that are grown in Israel? > > Tosofos (Nida 50a s.v. Kol) writes that there are two categories > of spices with regard to Teruma and Ma'aser: a) Spices that are > eaten together with other foods. These require the separation of > teruma and ma'aser. b) Spices that are removed after the cooking > and are discarded. These do not require Teruma and Ma'aser. It > should follow that tea and herbal leaves do not require separation > of Teruma and Ma'aser since the tea leaves are removed after > brewing and are not consumed. Indeed, many Poskim rule this way. > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > and Ma'aser should be separated. I can't help but wonder if Rav Sternbuch might hold - because the tea leaves are significant - that tea *is* subject to Bishul Yisroel. If he does not, that might lend weight to my suspicion that "primarily water" is merely code for "liquids" in the Mimetic Tradition, i.e., that liquids simply are not a concern. (In the Textual Tradition, "primarily water" is an exemption from Bishul Yisroel because water is normally eaten raw, which might not apply to tea leaves and coffee beans.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 3 22:47:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 01:47:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > > and Ma'aser should be separated. In that case why isn't tea ha'adamah, just like vegetable soup? The reason given is because there is no substance of the leaves in the tea, unlike soup where the vegetables are left in it and are consumed with it, and thus constitute the ikar. But according to this that shouldn't matter. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 4 05:45:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? A. This is a complex question, as it is touches on a number of principals that emerge from halachic discussions about the brachos for vegetable soup, fruit soup and beer. Important responsa on this topic were composed about 300 years ago by some of the great poskim of the eighteenth century. One of the first recorded teshuvos on this topic is found in Perach Mateh Aharon (siman 40), who ruled that the appropriate beracha is shehakol. Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt?l (1670-1744) disagrees. He writes in Panim Me?iros (2:190) that borei pri ha?adomah would be more appropriate, given that tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages. Indeed, Rav Meir notes that when visiting the city of Worms Germany, he observed the great chasid, Rav Shmuel Shatin, reciting borei pri ha?adomah on a cup of tea. Rav Meir challenged Rav Shmuel that it is customary to recite a shehakol. Rav Shmuel responded that a minhag that was not established by Rabbonim has no validity. Nonetheless, the Panim Me?eiros concludes a long teshuva by saying that while in theory he sides with Rav Shmuel, but in practice, he does not wish to break with common practice and recites shehakol. Subsequent poskim have defended the custom to recite a shehakol on coffee and tea with various explanations, and that is almost universally accepted. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 4 11:46:25 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:46:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 01:45:06PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? ... > Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt"l (1670-1744) ... writes in Panim Me'iros > (2:190) that borei pri ha'adomah would be more appropriate, given that > tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages... I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. A related (I think) case in the SA is that of date butter (OC 202:7). Date butter is "ha'eitz" for Sepharadim, because date butter was a primary use of dates in the Mechaber's day. The Rama holds the safeiq is real enough to justify "shehakol" as the catch-all. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger How wonderful it is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp nobody need wait a single moment Author: Widen Your Tent before starting to improve the world. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anne Frank Hy"d From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 11:39:20 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 19:39:20 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. Joseph (who has been saying sheasani yisrael for many decades) Sent from my iPhone From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 21:13:22 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 05:13:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com>, Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? > > ----------------------------- > I responded: I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. > --------------------------------------------- > RJR replied: My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Me (again): So was mine. Joseph From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Feb 4 19:54:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 03:54:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? ----------------------------- I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. --------------------------------------------- My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Shabbat Shalom Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 4 17:26:49 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 20:26:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> On 4/2/21 2:46 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel > reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for saying shehakol. To the best of my understanding it's simply an amhoratzus that started because people didn't know what it was. Remember that edible chocolate was only invented around 1800, so most poskim never heard of it. But the issue is very different from that of tea and coffee. The poskim did know what those are, and said they are shehakol because the leaves and beans are discarded and not consumed at all. That's why I was surprised to read an opinion that they are subject to bishul akum. That's obviously not the case with chocolate. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 5 08:40:44 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:40:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? A. Shulchan Aruch (OC 182:2; 272:9; 289:2; 296:2) writes that if there is no wine available, one may recite Birchas Hamazon, Kiddush (see last paragraph for further clarification about kiddush) or Havdalah on a beverage that is prevalent in that location. This is known as Chamar Medinah (the local wine). Do tea or coffee qualify? Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yebia Omer 3:19 and Yechaveh Daas 2:38) cites some Acharonim who maintain that a beverage is only considered Chamar Medinah if it is intoxicating. Based on this, Rav Ovadia Yosef rules that one should not recite Havdalah on tea or coffee. Only alcoholic beverages such as beer are acceptable. This was also the opinion of Rav Chaim Volozhener. The Rogotchover suggests that even if it is necessary for chamar medina to be intoxicating, milk can be considered an intoxicating beverage based on the Gemara (Kerisos 13b)that a cohen may not perform the avodah in the Beis Hamikdash after drinking milk. (Presumably, milk is intoxicating in the sense that it causes drowsiness and affects a person?s mental state.) However, Rav Y.D. Soloveichik (Mi?peninei Harav p. 87) rejects the comparison between avodah and chamar medinah. Milk invalidates a cohen for avodah because it causes drowsiness, while chamar medinah is limited to actual intoxication. On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea. One may add milk to their tea or coffee, but it is not necessary. Igeros Moshe explains that these drinks are similar to wine because they are served to guests to demonstrate distinction or respect, and not only to quench one?s thirst. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 279:9) writes that there are different opinions whether chamar medina may be used for Kiddush at night and during the day. The Mishnah Berurah (272:27) rules that Chamar Medinah may be used for Shabbos daytime kiddush, but should not be used for Friday night Kiddush, If wine is not available, Friday night Kiddush should be recited on challah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:29:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:29:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel >> reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. > I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for > saying shehakol... Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. And that when eating chocolate covered raisins or nuts, both are primary. But concludes that you should make the ha'eitz or ha'adamah on something else first and then the shehakol on the chocolate. (IM OC 3:31) That does imply the chocolate alone would be shehakol, no? (I don't know, maybe he discusses the case of chocolate directly. I can only report on what Bar Ilan helped me find.) Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - George Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:30:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:30:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210207003041.GB20855@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 04:40:44PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? > On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea... The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in Litta. Gut Voch! -Micha From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 6 17:45:42 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 20:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> On 6/2/21 7:29 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. > https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei Teshuva's day. He, like his source the Divrei Yosef (R Yosef Ergas, 1685-1730), as well as the Pri Chadash on the question of bishul akum and other acharonim, were all referring to hot chocolate, which was the only kind that existed in their day. Hot chocolate is a closer question than tea or coffee, because the cocoa itself is drunk and not removed. But Divrei Yosef compares it to Shesisa, a drink made with flour, which the gemara says is mezonos if it's thick but shehakol if it's the consistency of a drink, even though the flour is in it and not removed. > Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without > all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. Actually that is not his sevara, but one he quotes from the Minchas Shlomo as a suggestion, but that the Minchas Shlomo himself questions since it's a clear halacha that ground ginger mixed with sugar is ha'adama (it says ha'etz but that must be a typo), since ginger cannot be eaten on its own. Aderaba, that is the greatest argument for it being ha'etz, since that is not just the ikar way to eat the fruit but the only way. Even if the sugar is the majority, it comes only to make the fruit edible, so it's batel to it. His own sevara for shehakol is that the taste of the sugar and other ingredients is the ikar, and not that of the chocolate at all! But it seems to me that anyone who eats chocolate will testify that it's not so. It's not chocolate-flavored sugar, it's sugar-flavored chocolate, even when the chocolate is less than 50%, kol shekein in those bars that boast on the label of being 55% or 70% or 90% cocoa solids. By the way, he quotes Pachad Yitzchak quoting Yad Malachi, a talmid of R Yosef Ergas, who paskens (unlike his rebbe) to say Ha'eitz on hot chocolate! > RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. That's just it. He doesn't consider the question and pasken on it. He just assumes it. Who knows whether when he wrote that he had any idea what chocolate is. That's my contention about why the worlds says shehakol; they just don't know what it is, or else they're relying on their predecessors who didn't know what it was. None of them considered it. They came to America and found it there in the stores, and assumed it was just another kind of candy, and thus subsumed into the question of sugar, which we pasken is shehakol. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Feb 7 10:28:55 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 18:28:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Between Science and Torah Message-ID: What precisely is the relationship between science and Torah? Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L, deals with this issue in his commentary on Shemos 19:20 in Rav Schwab on Chumash. I have posted what he wrote at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/science_torah.pdf YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 7 14:25:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 17:25:16 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 > > Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei > Teshuva's day... We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. As I see it, if cacao is shehakol in the ST's day, the same would be true of a chocolate bar in ours. Both are the usual form of consumption for the respective times. (If anything, the bar is MORE processed than the drink.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The trick is learning to be passionate in one's http://www.aishdas.org/asp ideals, but compassionate to one's peers. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 17:29:15 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but > only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in > Litta. It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of drinking it. In fact, he contrasts this with several other drinks (seltzer, lemonade, or water with honey mixed in) which are merely "mayim metukanim - enhanced water", and he specifically says that what makes "teh matok" different is that (a) it was cooked, and (b) it is not *called* "water". My conclusion is that the AhS doesn't seem to care whether the tea is sweet or not. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 06:39:13 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:39:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/21 5:25 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 >> Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei >> Teshuva's day... > We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the > distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, > liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their > usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. There is a fundamental difference between food and drink, which is the entire basis of those who say shehakol on tea, coffee, or hot chocolate. In the case of tea and coffee there is deemed to be no substance of the leaf/berry in the water. In the case of chocolate the sevara given to say shehakol is the analogy to the gemara's "shesisa". Shesisa, even if it is merely a thick liquid, is mezonos; kol shekein if it's solid. The same should be true of chocolate. How processed it is should be irrelevant, since this is the normal way the fruit is eaten, just like ginger. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 8 13:03:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:03:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 08:29:15PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you > might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude > unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of > drinking it. Well, in OC 89:23 he notes that some prohibit drinking tea with sugar before davening -- but only wwith sugar. He is unsure why they would say that, since the sugar is just to give the hot drink a little flavor. How does that make sweatened tea "akhilah"? Others allow tea drunk through a sugar cube, but not if the sugar is dissolved in the tea. (One of the places where the AhS cites the MB.) There, he does conclude "ve'eino iqar". I am just pointing out that elsewhere in the AhS, tea and tea with sugar are different things. So, I wouldn't just assume he added the word "matoq" here simply because that's the norm. (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. I would want evidence it even was their norm. In siman 89, he gives the din for tea but if the tea is with sugar.... As opposed to if the se'if saw a need to call the first case "tea without sugar" or "unsweatened tea".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 8 05:19:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 13:19:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Proper Method of Torah Research Message-ID: The following is from the fourth footnote to RSRH's Eighteenth Letter in the Nineteen Letters. A word here about the proper method of Torah research. Two revelations are before us: nature and Torah. The same method of investigation must apply to both. In studying nature, all phenomena confront us as given data, and we can only endeavor to find the laws applying to them, and their interrelation, a posteriori-by starting from these phenomena themselves. The proof of the truth of your theory, or rather of the probability of its correctness, can be provided only by nature itself, since you will have to test your theory against nature's phenomena in order to be able to state with the highest possible degree of certainty that the facts indeed confirm your assumptions, i.e., that every phenomenon observed can be explained according to your theory. In nature, one single contradicting fact can invalidate your theory, and you must, therefore, make sure to obtain as much information as possible about the phenomena that you are studying, so that, as far as possible, you will have all the facts at your disposal. Moreover, even where we are not able to ascertain the laws and interrelations governing any given phenomenon, the phenomenon itself remains a fact. All this applies equally to the study of Torah. Just as heaven and earth are facts, so, to us, are the Torah21 and its commandments. In the Torah, just as in nature, the ultimate cause is God. In the Torah, just as in nature, no fact can be denied, even though we may comprehend neither its cause nor its relation to others; instead, we must persevere, in the Torah as in nature, to trace God's wisdom which manifests itself in them. In studying the Torah, then, we must begin by accepting the Torah's commandments in their entirety as given facts; we must study them and their relationship to each other and to the aspects of life that they govern. Then we must test the soundness of our theories by their conformity with the provisions of the Law; and, here too, the highest possible degree of certainty is obtained if everything fits our theory. Moreover, just as the phenomena of nature remain facts even though we may not have found their causes or interrelationships, and just as their existence does not depend on the results of our investigation-rather, the reverse is true-so, too, the commandments of the Torah are law even if we have not uncovered the cause and interrelationships of even a single one, and our fulfillment of the commandments in no way depends on the results of our investigation. Only the commandments belonging to the category of Edos, which seek to convey insights and to affect the emotions, remain incomplete without adequate investigation. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 13:56:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:56:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> References: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 8/2/21 4:03 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in > Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. Sugar was quite expensive there, while across the border in Galicia it was cheap. That's why Litvaks make their gefilte fish and luction kugel salty and Galicianers make them sweet. The Baal Hatanya, who lived on his pay as the town maggid, first in Liozna and then in Liadi, once asked the town council for a raise, because after much thought he had come to the conclusion that sugar is a necessity and not a luxury (hechrochios and not mosros). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 9 07:30:04 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 15:30:04 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Honoring Parents Message-ID: Please see the article at https://vosizneias.com/2021/02/09/honoring-parents-and-a-new-interpretation-from-rav-elyashiv-ztl/ [https://vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rabbi-Yosef-Shalom-Elyashiv-1024x640-1.jpg] Honoring Parents, and a New Interpretation from Rav Elyashiv Zt"l - Vos Iz Neias by Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com Last week, parshas Yisro, we leined the aseres hadibros. In them, of course, is the Mitzvah of Kivud Av v?Aim ? honoring one?s parents. The Torah itself assures us that one who is careful with it will merit long life ? something very apropos during this pandemic. The Talmud [?] vosizneias.com >From this article Speech ? Children must speak softly to their parents, in a calm tone, and using the most honorable terminology and modes of address. (See Kiddushin 30a,b). On the other hand, if one speaks abusively to one?s parents he or she will earn a place in Gehenam, rachmana litzlan. Action ? The Mishna Brurah (301:4) indicates that, if possible, it is a Mitzvah to greet one?s parents every day. There are also numerous actions that are obvious that must be done regularly, for example, taking out the garbage for them regularly ? without being asked; offering them drinks or food; requesting if there is anything they need in terms of shopping, mail, etc. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:48:15 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minhagim change over time Message-ID: Understanding how certain minhagim change over time: Imho this is a process which plays out historically without a clear algorithm. Only through the eyes of retrospection (e.g. the aruch hashulchan) is the result koshered (see hilchot aveilut as an example) Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:46:39 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:46:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience Message-ID: On belief based on personal experience: A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) Me-How do we take this into account in our emunah process? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:54:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:54:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Personal thoughts on Avodah Message-ID: * Ari Wasserman,Rabbi Moshe Hauer,Rabbi Moshe Mordechai Lowy,Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz,Reb Dovid Lichtenstein,Mr. Charlie Harary-1/2/21 - Show 304 - What halachically is a good (or bad) use of our time? Someone I know often says, "Time is our most precious and perishable asset." OTOH I'm not sure I can agree with Mick Jagger that, "Time is on my side, yes it is". You can listen here to the various presentations or you can send me $4.95 (plus shipping and handling) for Joel's magic elixir algorithm which will cure all your ills and give you the proper balance of learning, sleeping, relaxing, eating, etc. For an extra $1.05 you'll also get the proper breakdown of learning time by subject including Tehillim and gedolim bios! Seriously IMHO this our biggest avodah, figuring out how HKB"H wants us to spend our time, especially the marginal free minute. IMHO you need to think about this throughout life and to talk about it from time to time with others to ensure you take into account your blind spots (true of life in general). For me, having a working basic knowledge of behavioral economics, social science, quantum physics, scientific method, legal theory, etc. will improve one's talmud torah and avodat hashem. Just be sure you're not trying to see everything as a nail because you have a hammer! These are my thoughts on our avodah in dynamic time allocation today. What are yours? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ereich at zen.co.uk Thu Feb 11 02:37:15 2021 From: ereich at zen.co.uk (L Reich) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 10:37:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: <8dab4744-a501-4547-d3af-aad949ae4e5c@zen.co.uk> to Avodah forum: Can anyone reconcile the seeming halachic contradiction regarding figs, whether fresh or dry (the latter being known as /Grogrois/ in the Talmud. All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement of examination before consumption. Yet.... Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of /Grogrois/, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the cake? Furthermore in dealing with the hazard of /Gilui/ - liquids and soft foods left uncovered and possibly injected with snake venom - The Talmud Yurshalmi states that one may eat (soft) figs in the dark and not worry about venom. What about insects ? Elozor Reich -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 13:00:12 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:00:12 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? Message-ID: From https://www.kosher.com/lifestyle/this-year-purim-falls-on-friday-what-time-should-i-begin-my-purim-seuda-1436 [https://www.kosher.com/resized/open_graph/h/a/hamentashen_purim_concept_banner.jpg] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? | Lifestyle | Kosher.com Written by Rabbis Eli Gersten, Yaakov Luban, and Moshe Zywica of the Orthodox Union . The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat.. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat ... www.kosher.com The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat?chila postpone the seuda up until three hours before Shabbat. Bedieved (after the fact), if one is unable to begin the seuda until later, one must still eat the seuda up until Shabbat. If one is still in the middle of the Purim seuda at shkia (sunset), when Shabbat begins, one must cover the food, recite Kiddush, and then continue the meal. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if this were to happen, one would recite Retzei in bentching, but not al hanissim. One cannot recite both retzei and al hanissim, since this would be a contradiction. Since we are required to recite retzei, this indicates that it is Shabbat and Purim is over. Therefore, one can no longer recite al hanissim. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 06:16:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:16:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Special Seudah When Rosh Chodesh is on Shabbos Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This Shabbos will also be Rosh Chodesh. We will be eating three seudos in honor of Shabbos. Is there anything additional that should be served in honor of Rosh Chodesh? A. There are two versions of the Talmud. The Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) was redacted in the sixth century. The Talmud Yerushalmi was composed in an earlier period in Israel. The Tur (OC 419) quotes the Talmud Yerushalmi (Megilah 1:4) that when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, the Rosh Chodesh seuda is postponed until Sunday. (It is not feasible to eat the Rosh Chodesh meal on Shabbos since three meals already take place in honor of Shabbos.) It is apparent from the Yerushalmi that a seuda is required on Rosh Chodesh. In light of the above, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 419:2) is surprised that we do not observe this custom of eating a Rosh Chodesh seudah. He speculates that since this meal is not mentioned in the Talmud Bavli, it was assumed that the Bavli disagrees with the Yerushalmi. When there is a conflict between the Bavli and Yerushalmi, we follow the Bavli, and therefore the Rosh Chodesh seuda was not observed. The Aruch Hashulchan concludes that in deference to the Yerushalmi, an extra dish should be served at the meal on Rosh Chodesh. Similarly, when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, an extra dish should be added to the Shabbos meal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 11 15:38:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:38:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210211233848.GA14859@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 03:46:39AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> On belief based on personal experience: I checked on TorahMusings, and RJR forgot to say there as well just who he is quoting, but someone wrote: >> A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and >> analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations >> similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space >> (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they >> actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how >> many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) And RJR asked: > How do we take this into account in our emunah process? I think that's leaving the personal experience route, trying to use the idea of personal experience as a data point to build a philosophical argument. Kind of like the difference between the Kuzari cheileq 1's appeal to tradition, and "The Kuzari Principle" trying to make a philosophical argument out of the impossibility of forging this kind of tradition. The question is whether you want to philosophically get knowledge about the Borei, or you want to get to better know Him. The Rambam, because he believes that a personal relationship of that sort is impossible, focuses on theological knowledge about G-d. On the opposite extreme, R Nachman eschewed studying about G-d because all that intellectualizing gets in the way of knowng Him. The resolution I pursue in my own life assumes neither of these ends of the spectrum. Ever do something you know was the wrong choice? That's because there is a gap between what we think and what we feel. (R' Elya Lopian -- all of mussar is about moving something just an ammah. Moving an idea from the head to the heart.) It is therefore not necessarily true that a pursuit of philosophical knowledge about Hashem in all His Transcendence has to get in the way of finding a relationship with Him. This is a case where compartmentalization is a good thing. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 19:18:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 22:18:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: . R' Elozor Reich asked: > All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects > found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement > of examination before consumption. > > Yet.... > > Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of > Grogrois, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed > examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did > the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the > cake? My presumption is that the ancients knew what to look for, and so they had a simpler task of discerning a problematic fig from a problem-free fig. It is "exhausting" for us because we are less familiar with what we are doing, so we go to extremes to ensure that we've resolved all doubts. It is comparable to making matzah. Back in the day, they knew what they were doing, so they could make a loaf up to a tefach thick, and still be confident that it was chometz-free. They knew how to keep kneading the dough, so that even with the passage of hours, it would still not become chometz. They could even mix flour into a pot of boiling water, and it would cook so fast that it couldn't become chometz. But we have forgotten the details, and we're woefully out of practice. So most of us go crazy making the matza as thin as we can, and bake it as fast as we can. And just to be extra-sure, many go for the well-done matzos, disdaining the merely baked ones. So too with the figs, I suspect. If you know what you're doing, you can take a glance and know whether it has any bugs or not. But if you've lost the mimetics of how to do that, a surgical inspection is the only way to know for sure. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 18:38:50 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:38:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . No, I don't really doubt that Rosh Chodesh *does* have kedusha, if for no other reason than the Beis Din's announcement of "Medudash!" My actual question concerns how we express that kedusha, and in particular, how we talk about its kedusha in our tefilos. In the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh, the middle bracha - often nicknamed "Kedushas Hayom" - closes with the words, "Baruch Atah Hashem, mekadesh Yisrael v'Rashei Chadashim. - Blessed are You, Hashem, Who sanctifies Israel and New Moons." This conclusion certainly attests to the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh, but it seems strange to me that the body of the bracha doesn't. The main text of this bracha, beginning with the words "Rashei Chadashim l'amcha natata," says many nice things about Rosh Chodesh: It's a time for kapara, we would bring korbanos. We ask Hashem that we should be able to bring these korbanos again, and we ask Him for all sorts of brachos in this new month. And we finally state the basis for these requests: "For You chose your people Israel from all the nations, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Not a single word about the kedusha of the day (until after we cross over from the body of the bracha into the chasima). The root k-d-sh never even appears, except in the phrase "Beis Hamikdash". What's going on here? I clearly recall learning, once upon a time, halachos about the structure of a bracha, and how the conclusion should summarize the main point of what the bracha is about. But that doesn't happen here. The body of the bracha talks about the Newness of the new month, and the conclusion talks about its Holiness. When Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, this omission is even sharper: "You made your Holy Shabbos known to them, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Shabbos is explicitly holy, but Rosh Chodesh just has laws? For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant that I won't bother to list them. Amida and Musaf on the Shalosh Regalim have at least two mentions of the day's kedusha: The paragraph of "Vatiten Lanu" has the phrase "Yom Tov [Ploni] Mikra Kodesh", then just before the chasima we have the phrase "Moadei Kodshecha". On Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, "Mikra Kodesh" seems to be the only explicit reference, but that's still a lot more than Rosh Chodesh's zero. I readily concede that the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh is less than that of the other holidays, possibly even less than that of Chol Hamoed. And perhaps that's the message that Chazal were sending us when they formulated this bracha. Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Sun Feb 14 02:23:31 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:23:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 04:00, Akiva Miller wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other > holidays. > Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant > that I won't bother to list them. On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it that are different. ADE From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 06:15:34 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:15:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . I wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on > other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, ... R' Allan Engel commented> > On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the > same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it > that are different. I am not familiar with this idea. Are you suggesting that these "piyutim" were inserted long after the Anshei Knesses Hagedola, similar to the pituyim that are reserved for Chazaras Hashatz on special occasions? Thet would be news to me, most especially in the case of Musaf, where mentioning the korbanos is mandated by halacha. Even if these paragraphs are recent additions, my point was that all four of them specifically mention the kedusha of Shabbos: Maariv: "Atah kidashta es yom hashevii", "V'kidashto mikol hazmanim" Shacharis and Musaf: "Am m'kadshei shevii", "uvashevii ratzisa bo v'kidashto" Mincha: "Yom menucha uk'dusha" Additional data point: My question isn't about the Amidah specifically, but about the structure of a Bracha Arucha in general. So I took a look at the last bracha after reading the haftara. On both Shabbos and Yom Tov, this bracha concludes with the same words as we say in Kiddush and in the middle bracha of the Amida, attesting to the Kedushas Hayom. But what of the body of the bracha? On Shabbos, we say "v'al yom haShabbos hazeh, shenasata lanu Hashem Elokeinu likdusha", so that matches up. But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 15 13:45:23 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:45:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim Message-ID: Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA OU's Guidelines for Purim The approaching Adar and Purim represent the sobering milestone of a year since the arrival of the pandemic on these shores. This year has brought devastating loss of life, immense financial struggle, and significant personal and social upheaval. At the same time, we are approaching a time of year that should be filled with simcha. How do we balance these emotions and experiences? See the attached guidelines, written in concert with our poskim and medical professionals. Read Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 16 09:25:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:25:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210216172556.GA18273@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 04:45:23PM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA > OU's Guidelines for Purim See also the Agudah's guidelines https://agudah.org/purim-5781-a-time-for-mindfulness-and-care And the guidelines sent around Lakewood in the name of BMG's rashei yeshiva: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1948510 (which I think is the most conservative of those I've seen) Over in my backyard, R Ron Yitzchak Eisenman sent out guidelines for Ahavas Israel of Passaic, but since RRYE is a known columnist, I thought people might be curious what he told his shul. See below, although except for capitalizing what was originally in BOLD, formatting was removed. Tir'u baTov! -Micha --------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 12:06 PM Subject: Purim 5781 Purim 5781 """""""""" Under no circumstances may anyone ever enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose The New PIP """"""""""" You all remember PIP? Purim in Pashut. This year there is a new PIP. Purim in Pandemic. How do we celebrate the joyous day of Purim during the Pandemic? The answer is, of course, by adhering to the Covid guidelines strictly and uncompromisingly. I recall very well last Purim. No one was masking as back then; in fact, we were told not to mask. No one social distanced as we never heard of the term. Purim was celebrated together with close contact, sharing of food and drink, and unbeknownst to us at the time; we were also transmitting a deadly pathogen that would wreak havoc on the world, AND PARTICULARLY HARD HIT WERE ORTHODOX JEWS. This year Baruch Hashem, we know to be careful. THEREFORE, IN THE SPIRIT OF EVEN A SAFEK PIKUACH NEFESH (SLIGHT CHANCE OF A LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION), I PRESENT MY GUIDELINES FOR PURIM 5781. 1. Parshas Zachor -- As I have mentioned in the past, the Shul follows the Psak of the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim Kanievsky that women are NOT obligated to hear Parshas Zachor. 2. Therefore, please observe the socially distant setup of the women's section. Preferably, unless you are a regular Shul goer, better not to come. If you do go and see there are no seats, DO NOT enter the women's section. You are putting people in danger, and you are doing a "Mitzvah through an Aveira." 3. The above rule of not crowding the sections applies to the Men's section as well. 4. Under no circumstances may anyone enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. 5. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose PURIM Night """"""""""" 1. One may eat before hearing the Megillah 2. Therefore, women or men who will hear the Megillah later should eat after 6:18 PM on Thursday 3. If you cannot get out to hear the Megillah, and no one can come to you to read it. You may listen to a live Zoom broadcast of the Megillah and read along with the Baal Koreh in your printed Megillah. Purim Day """"""""" a. Mishloach Manos -- Minimal Mishloach Manos this year. You only need to give two food items to one person to fulfill the Mitzvah. b. When delivering the (hopefully one) Mishloach Manos, make sure to wear a mask c. It is highly recommended not to go driving around town delivering food. This can G-d forbid lead to a "super-spreader" infecting many people. d. Stay home in your family bubble. e. The Mitzvah this year is "less (contact) is more (health)!" f. Matanos L'Evyonim can be given to me either (cash or check) in Shul beginning today. g. If you want to drop off Matanos L'Evyonim at my home (that is allowed and recommended), please come masked h. I respectfully ask that no one feel they need to visit me and certainly do not feel the need to bring me Mishloach Manos. i. The Purim Seuda should consist of people only in your immediate bubble. j. Preferably it should take place in the morning as Shabbos is coming! k. Use the extra time to learn Torah, say Tehillim, and spend quality with your children or yourself. Wishing all a joyous Purim Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Rabbi, Congregation Ahavas Israel Passaic, NJ From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 16 09:58:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:58:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Learning for the sake of learning, just to occupy one's mind with the intricacies of the Torah, even if the practical application of the law is already known, is limited to men. A woman who learns Torah does not become greater in yiras Shamayim because of it. True, she may become very learned in Torah, but this is not the object of talmud Torah. A woman may become a great philosopher or scientist, but Torah is not philosophy or science. Torah is the way Hakadosh Baruch Hu communicates with us. Only because talmud Torah is a mitzvah, a positive commandment for man, can it be a means to connect to Hashem and thereby increase his yiras Shamayim. Because a woman has no specific mitzvah of talmud Torah, she cannot utilize it as a means to increase her many ways of connection to Hashem. If a man is a great talmud chacham, having learned the entire Talmud, and has not become a greater yerei Shamayim this learning has not achieved its purpose. If a woman were to learn and know Gemara just as well as a man, it still would not make her one iota better than she is. It would have no influence on her relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu. she'asani kirtzono - He has made me according to his will, means that a woman does not need talmud Torah to come close to Hakadosh Baruch Hu. A woman can even have prophecy-the closest possible relationship to Hakadosh Baruch Hu-without learning Torah. [Email #2. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274-275. Women are also obligated to say Biros Ha Torah. While patur (exempt) from talmud Torah purely for the sake of learning, women are, nevertheless, obligated to learn the halachos of the mitzvos so they can properly fulfil them. With the exception of the few time-bound mitzvos, women have the same obligation as men to know and keep the vast majority of the mitzvos of the Torah. It is therefore incumbent upon women to learn the details of these mitzvos in order to observe them properly. How can women keep Shabbos or Yom Tov properly without knowing the applicable halachos? How can a woman conduct a business if she is not familiar with the dinim (laws) of ribbis (interest), ona'ah (misrepresentation or price fraud), or gezel (outright theft)? The difference is only in the goal of the learning. For a man, in addition to the need to know the practical halachos in order to apply them, it is also a mitzvah to occupy himself with talmud Torah as a form of avodas Hashem, serving Hashem. This is so even if there is no immediate need for this knowledge in practice, either because he already knows the dinim, or because his immediate circumstances do not require the application of what he is learning. However, for a woman, the purpose of the learning is to gain the knowledge in order to put it into practice. From zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com Tue Feb 16 11:16:54 2021 From: zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com (Zalman Alpert) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] On Feb 16, 2021 12:58 PM, "Prof. L. Levine" wrote: > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Have to admit this is strange but reflects a weird attitude towards females May I add that the views of R Schwab are not necessarily in line with Rav Breuer or Rav SR Hirsch or that they represent daas Torah just at this point a daas Yachid it warrants further investigation By the way Rav Schwab personally from the pulpit thanked and praised the late Isha gedolah Dr Gertrude Hirschler for her abridged trans of the Hirsch chumash That was not practical halacha but Torah lishma Torah hashkofa is complex and single modules or power points do not reflect the reality on the ground This is true as all rabbis are humans and MAY and do change positions,the Rav was a powerful Agudist until 1946 and then joined Mizrachi so I can guote what he said in 1938 and that would NOT reflect his position later Rabbi Schwab himself reversed himself in Tide several times ... [Email #2. -micha] > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274 - 275. Besides hilchos Shabbos none of the halachoth mentioned was taught at the Breuer's girls high school,some time was spent on secondary subjects that could gave been used Rav Schwab was the Board of Ed dean of all KAJ schools I suspect hilchos Shabbes are taught in most Bath Jacobs in metro NY And in the KAJ school no text was used no kittzur not even Rabbi Posen's Amira leBays Yaakov which was designated as a supplementary text but not formally studied As the chazal say esmahmeha ? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 16 22:39:57 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 06:39:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts Message-ID: For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 04:13:42 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 07:13:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was learning this week. I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even today. Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? Akiva Miller (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra guessing. Happy Adar!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 18 05:04:17 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? Message-ID: There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different depending on where you live and the day of the year. For a detailed discussion of this issue see https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ YL Depression Angles ? The Seforim Blog Depression Angles By William Gewirtz. Introduction: Depression angles measure the level of darkness or illumination prior to sunrise and, in a parallel fashion, after sunset. seforimblog.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 11:53:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218195341.GB18578@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 01:04:17PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different > depending on where you live and the day of the year. > > For a detailed discussion of this issue see > https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ Only end. The day begins at sheqi'ah. 0 minutes after sunset equals the sun declining 0 degrees below the horizon. No difference in when the day starts between computing a fixed interval or degrees below horizon. In any case, computing tzeis isn't siginificantly more complex. It's as easy to compute sunset (0 deg below the horizon) and add 36 minutes as it is to compute when the sun is 7.12 deg below the horizon. See the page I wrote at http://aishdas.org/luach Or the widely used http://mysmanim.com Both use declination. But I like my formatting. One page per month in normal 7x4 or 7x5 calendar format. At the cost of not having every zeman published for every day, and having to split the difference between the zeman as it was two days before today and two day after. (I even threw in the Molad on days that have one. One known bug -- doesn't know which cities light 40 min before sheqi'ah.) Suggestions invited. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 14:36:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:36:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218223619.GA9395@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 07:13:42AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic... Shorashim, likely not. So I can't help you with cases like "techum". But it shouldn't take that much diqduq knowledge to recognize which way the word is conjugated, so, more hope for verbs. Then the easy things, like .... I say "like", but I only can think of this example: No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. A final alef "-a" for zakhar nouns ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. Eg: Malkah with a hei is Lh"Q for queen. Malka with an alef - Aramit for king. For that matter, once we get to rabbinic Hebrew, the shorashim they both got from before the split between the languages is compounded by Leshon Chazal's heavy borrowing of shorashim from Aramit. The question of which language a shoresh belongs to itself becomes blurry. More like asking "when did this enter Hebrew". Like "techum", which is used in Mishnayos, in Hebrew. So, it's a Hebrew word, but a later addition, borrowed from Aramaic. (Then there is always sefaria. When you search for the word, which books dominate the search results? If the answer is Targumim, the Talmuds, Zohar, etc... you know it's Aramaic. Of course, so much of gemara (TY & TB) is in Hebrew, finding a word in gemara alone wouldn't make the point.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was > learning this week. > > I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra > v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* > was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good > example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase > "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, > and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to > conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it > was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. > > I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the > loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the > word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), > which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a > form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A > "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). > [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find > this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is > actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. > > On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must > be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any > Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any > Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has > many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, > the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what > Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa > cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute > "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak > claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same > pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that > Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in > about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. > > My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is > Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few > places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that > whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days > of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, > and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even > today. > > Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even > earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? > > Akiva Miller > > (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, > here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. > I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's > not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. > Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want > another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra > guessing. Happy Adar!) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 02:36:31 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:36:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. > A final alef "-a" for zakhar nound ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. When I was in yeshiva, I had a friend who had more than a few seforim published with Hebrew fonts, but not Hebrew language. I ended up developing a set of rules by which I could determine a book's language at just a glance: Lots of words ending with Heh - Hebrew Lots of words ending with Aleph - Aramaic Lots of words starting with Aleph - Arabic Lots of words with aleph or ayin or double-yud in the middle - Yiddish I had a rule for Ladino too, but I've forgotten it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 19 06:26:43 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:26:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi (Megillas Esther 9:16-17) explains that the Purim story took place because Haman maligned the Jews, saying that they engage in personal feuds and do not get along with one another. This is alluded to in the verse ?yeshno am echad mefuzar umeforad bein ha?amim?, there is one nation which is dispersed and scattered among the nations, i.e., lacking unity. To demonstrate the falsehood of this libelous charge, Mordechai and Esther instituted that Mishloach Manos should be given to one?s friends and acquaintances, to foster camaraderie and good will among the Jews. This demonstrates that we do not engage in personal feuds; on the contrary, we engage in acts of friendship, by gifting our food to others. Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving one?s acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Feb 19 11:33:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:33:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi... >> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor >> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal >> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). I am not understanding the ThD's explanation. After all, there is already a mitzvah in that niche. So: 1- On the first layer of the explanation, why then enact both mishloach manos and matanos le'evyonim? And 2- If we give MM to the wealthy so as not to embarass the poor, why not JUST mishloach manos, rather than matanos le'evyonim embarassing them? :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 20 19:08:07 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 22:08:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> References: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <0568e6c2-010b-31a1-fd3b-7e820b8d7560@sero.name> On 19/2/21 2:33 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: >> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >>> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >>> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >>> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Ad kan Terumas Hadeshen. The rest is the Chasam Sofer's suggestion, or rather the OU writer's understanding of the same, which I believe to be flawed. First of all, though, the Terumas Hadeshen does not mention "poor people". He says the purpose of mishloach manos is so that everyone will have enough food for the seudah, and therefore it must consist of food. Money or clothing will not do, since one can't serve those at the seudah, whereas matanos la'evyonim can be food *or* money, or anything else that helps. It should be readily understood that a person need not be poor in order to find himself not quite up to making as big a seudah as he would like. It may be that he is neither rich nor poor, he's keeping up with his bills, but he can't afford to make the kind of purim seuda he would like to make, and a care package would be welcome. It may also be that someone has plenty of money but for some reason he didn't buy enough when he went shopping, or he just isn't that good a cook, and would appreciate an outside contribution to the meal. >>> Although most people are not poor >>> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, This part is not in the ThD or the ChS, and is the OU writer's own interjection. >>> Chazal >>> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >>> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). This is the ChS, except that he doesn't say "wealthy", he says one who has plenty of food. It could even be a poor person who happens to be well provided for the purim seudah, even if he'll be eating the leftovers all week. Technically, according to the ThD's explanation of the reason for the mitzvah there's no reason to send to this person -- one could send him matanos la'evyonim, but not mishloach manos! -- , but nevertheless the ChS suggests that Chazal said to send him anyway so as not to embarrass those who are not so well supplied. The ChS's point, however, is not to whom one should send, but whether the recipient can decline, and if he does whether the giver is yotzei. So he says that according to the ThD's explanation it's obvious that if the person actually could use the extra food then his mechilah is of no effect; lepo'el his seudah is now short of what it could be, so the purpose of the mitzvah was not fulfilled. But he says even one who is well supplied should not decline, so as not to embarrass those who don't decline. I think this answers both of your questions. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 03:47:20 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 06:47:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur Message-ID: In the "credit where credit is due" department, this post results from an article in the recent issue (Dec 2020) of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. It contains an article titled "The Halachos of Davening at Home" by "Rabbi Avraham Yeshaya Cohen, Translated by Rabbi Nosson Kaiser". On page 74-75, he writes: >>> It is forbidden for a tzibbur to recite ha'aderes v'ha'emunah except on Yom Kippur, but an individual may say it anytime. [Mishnah Berurah 565:12. Nusach Sefarad says it every Shabbos and Yom Tov during pesukei d'zimra. Perhaps that is considered an individual's tefillah, as there is no requirement for a tzibbur at that point. In fact, Siddur Tezelosa D'avraham p. 159 writes that it should be said quietly, and the chazzan should not end it aloud. See also Aruch Hashulchan 281:4 and Sheivet Levi 10:86.] Mishnah Berurah 565:12 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur, though an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. [Pri Megadim in Eishel Avraham] The Dirshu Mishneh Berurah 565:16 gives some arguments (pro and con) about saying it in Pesukei D'Zimra, and also raises the issue of singing it during Hakafos on Simchas Torah. Magen Avraham 565:5 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur. (R"m Mahari"l) Pri Megadim 565:5 says: >>> See the Magen Avraham about b'tzibbur, but an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. See Darchei Moshe. Darchei Moshe 565:4 says: >>> The Mahari'v wrote that the tefillah Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah can be said by an individual any day of the year, but a tzibbur is forbidden to say it except on Yom Kippur. My question about all this does not concern the exceptions that are made for Pesukei D'Zimra or for Simchas Torah. Rather, I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. Are there any other examples of this? Can anyone explain why it would be wrong for a tzibur to choose to say it on a day other than Yom Kippur? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 20:33:22 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 23:33:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" (beis-vav-tzadi). "Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in Divrei Hayamim. I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all of these as coming from Aramaic: techum (Onkelos' translation of gevul in Bereshis 10:19 and Devarim 27:17) butz (Onkelos' translation of shesh in Bereshis 41:42 and Shemos 28:39) yakar (Onkelos' translation of kavod in Shemos 28:2 and Devarim 5:21) siruv (Onkelos' translation of ma'en in Shemos 7:27 and Bamidbar 20:21) On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. One more note: This dictionary is available on line, as a searchable and downloadable pdf file, at https://archive.org/stream/AComprehensiveEtymologicalDictionaryOfTheHebrewLanguageErnestKlein1987OCR but its copyright is murky to me. There's an "Info" button near the top right of that page, and if you click it and the "More information" button afterwards, it claims that the dictionary is in the public domain. But page 2 of the dictionary itself says "Copyright 1987 by ...", so I don't know which claim is more correct. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 21 07:37:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 10:37:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210221153722.GA10838@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 11:33:22PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated > as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as > "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form > of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is > indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I > suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. I was under the impression that shif'il is an Aramaic binyan that is borrowed by Hebrew. So, it is used for Hebrew shorashim, but the resulting word is only Hebrew after influence from Aramaic. But AFAIK, shif'il and the passive shuf'al (meshubadim hayinu leFar'oh) don't appear in Tanakh. So, one could accurately says shi'bud is Hebrew, but Rabbinic Hebrew has Aramaic influences... So, the answer isn't all that black-and-white. Why not re-ask on our sister list mesorah at aishdas.org ? It's full of people interested in nusach, as well as getting leining and tefillah "just right". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sun Feb 21 10:19:26 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:19:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/2/21 11:33 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was > Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and > many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, > and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" > (beis-vav-tzadi).?"Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word > (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash > days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in > Divrei Hayamim. Note that in Esther 1:6, in the same pasuk where "bootz" is used to mean what the Chumash calls "shesh", "shesh" is used to mean "shayish", marble. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From simon.montagu at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 00:36:11 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:36:11 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 5:27 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason > I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive > Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by > Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen > it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all > of these as coming from Aramaic: > Klein's dictionary is also available on Sefaria with a search interface: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Klein_Dictionary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 06:32:07 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:32:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Please see my question at the end. Q. I ordered a food package on Amazon two days before Purim with guaranteed delivery to my friend on Purim day. Do I fulfill the mitzvah of Mishloach Manos with such an arrangement? A. This is a matter of dispute among the poskim. Some hold that by doing so he does fulfill his obligation of Mishloach Manos (Be?er Heitev to OC 695:7, citing Yad Aharon; Da?as Torah in the name of Mahari Assad, and Rav Elyashiv, cited in Yevakshu Mipihu, Purim 1:31). However Aruch HaShulchan (695:17) held that one does not fulfill Mishloach Manos with this arrangement. The Ben Ish Chai (Teshuvos Torah Lishmah 188) explains the reasoning behind this dispute as follows: In the previous Halacha Yomis we learned that there is a dispute as to why Mishloach Manos are given. Is it to engender good will and camaraderie between people (Manos Halevi), or is it to ensure that poor people have sufficient food for their Purim Seudah (Terumas HaDeshen)? If Mishloach Manos are to foster good will ? one must send the food on Purim itself because sending the food is part of the mitzvah. Those who hold that one is yotzei, take the position that the purpose of Mishloach Manos is for the recipient to have sufficient food for the seudah. Hence, as long as the food is received on Purim ? even if it was sent prior to Purim ? the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah. _____________________________________________________________ According to the opinion that "the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah" is the purpose of sending Mishaloach Manos, then it seems to me that sending candy and cake does not fulfill the mitzvah. While some kids may make feel that candy and cakes are fine for a meal, most adults do not, and hence it seems to me that one who sends candy and sweets does not fulfill his/her obligation to send Mishaloach Manos. For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 12:57:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 15:57:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 02:32:07PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and > croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! One can argue from the Rambam's Hikkhos Tzedaqah that the same applies to michloach manos, and it's better to give smaller m"m to more people. Or maybe not. The question of how to safely do mishloach manos this year is a touchy one, and depends on local conditions. I heard one LOR recommend giving just one person whom you've already had similar contact with, and save all the great "themed shalachmanos" ideas for next year. Last year, the week before Pesach was a vary sad one in our community. (I still cry when I think of R Matis Blum's [Torah Loda'as] mother, someone who fed me many a Shabbos Qiddush snack when I was a boy, who was still sitting shiv'ah for R Matis when she started shiv'ah for her husband.) But last Purim, we weren't aware of the notion of a "superspreader event". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone http://www.aishdas.org/asp or something in your life actually attracts more Author: Widen Your Tent of the things that you appreciate and value into - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF your life. - Christiane Northrup, M.D. From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 12:08:10 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:08:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Message-ID: The following is from the Sefer The Vilna Gaon on Megillas Esther by Rabbi Asher Baruch Wegbreit. This Sefer contains many interesting insights into the Megillah. Pasuk !:4 says "when he showed the riches of his glorious kingdom, and the splendor of his excellent majesty, many days, one hundred and eighty days." Question: Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Answer: The answer lies in understanding the real purpose of the feast. Vashti's grandfather Nevuchadnezzar had hidden 1,080 treasure houses near the Euphrates River, but Hashem revealed them to Koresh, the king who preceded Achashverosh, because Hashem had designated Koresh to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. Achashverosh inherited these treasures from him. Achashverosh decided to display his vast wealth to the officers and noblemen of all the provinces of his empire in order to awe them into submission and thereby solidify his kingship, and he used the feast as a context for the presentation. The feast was thus a pretense to allow what would have otherwise been ostentatious display of his wealth. The pasuk describes this in passive form "in his showing of his treasures," to hint that this display, which was actually the purpose of the feast, was conducted in a casual manner, as if it were merely a secondary goal. Achashverosh showcased his 1,080 treasure houses at a rate of six per day- as alluded to in the six words in the pasuk describing his wealth and power ("riches," glorious," "kingdom," "honor," "sp1endorous, " and "greatness")-on each of the 180 days of the feast (180 x 6 = 1,080). At the feast, Achashverosh also donned the Kohen Gadol's garments, to convey his personal greatness and royal dominion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 22 14:55:41 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:55:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:57 PM 2/22/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say >I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is >likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave >one maneh! So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. I think not! The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different brochos, even if combined. YL From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 20:37:09 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:37:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the > AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. > > Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your > practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for > one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons > into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is considered as two??" He makes no mention of the size of these pieces; if I give a nice-size portion of meat, and then a second portion just like it, it doesn't count, because it needs to be TWO TYPES of food. The AhS quotes the Rambam as writing, "two portions of meat, or two types of food, or two types of tavshil." [Note the change in language: Rambam used the word "manos" for the meat, but "minim" for food and tavshil.] AhS concludes that "His writing 'two types' forces you to say that when he wrote 'two portions of meat' he meant 'of two types'. Or. maybe it was a printer's error and it should have said 'two types of meat' just like 'two types of food'." In your scenario, where I gave someone a bowl of salad, and a second bowl of croutons, this is surely two separate foods, and I am yotzay. If the recipient chooses to mix them together, that is his doing, but I'm already yotzay. An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, *different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 23 05:48:26 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:48:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22e901d709ea$91763780$b462a680$@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:37:09PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very > clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." > Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But > two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is > considered as two??" ... In se'if 13 he says "uba'inan shetei manos... veyotz'in be'echad". Which being darshened from the word "rei'eka" would seem to mean 1 person (getting the 2 manos) except he doesn't get to the number And se'if 15 talks about the size of a maneh, "ke'ein chatikhah hara'ui lehiskhabeid". All that aside, yes, the AhS comes down on one side. In this case, he is defending common practice against the SA se'if 4. For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying otherwise. Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:56pm -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made > a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. No, I am saying it could well be that that's the halakhah, so CYLOR. What you consider obvious doesn't seem so when you look at the sources. > I think not! > The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different > brochos, even if combined. According to the SA, the halakhah speaks of two servings. The fundamental halakhah doesn't care about "two berakhos", and according to the SA, not even whether it's two kinds of food. Giving two hamburgers may not be our minhag, but it is clear that both the SA and the Rama would say you are yotzei. (OC 695:4) The Arukh haShulchan (se'if 15) talks about the manos being generous, so you can't be yotzei giving just two kezeisim. So yes, if you give a hamburger and a bun, you could very well not be yotzei. That's exactly the logic. You say "I think not!" but why not? Do you have a maqor? That's why I would get an expert opinion before doing the same. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 14:49:44 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:49:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222224944.GB2099@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:15:34AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the > haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh > Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha > to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is > sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm > putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. The last phrase of any berakhah (that isn't just a one sentence "Barukh") is supposed to be me'ein hachasimah. But it can drift all over the place in between. Any berakhah that covers multiple topics has to be a berakhah arukhah -- barukh at beginning and last sentence; or semuchah lechaverta and thus the first barukh can be omitted. (The AhS invokes this idea to explain the structure of Birkhas haZon (the first berakhah of bentchen). The middle berakhah on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or Rosh Chodesh is apparently a berakhah arukhah hasemukhah lechaverta. Therefore, it is allowed to have multiple topics, never mind insisting it closely match the chasimah. As long as the close is me'ein hachasimah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Mon Feb 22 09:01:51 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:01:51 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 22, 2021 01:19:26 pm Message-ID: <16140349120.7Aaf7F4e.96628@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > ... I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has > free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other > way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* > b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, > some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only > by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on > only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. > > Are there any other examples of this? > There are plenty of examples of prayers that may be recited by individuals, and that may not be recited by the tzibbur. For example, suppose you have asked Sarah Pippik to marry you, and she has nodded her head and said she'll get back to you on that. Unquestionably, until you hear back from her with her answer, you are going to be inserting a private prayer three times a weekday into the benediction of Shomea` Tefillah, that she say yes to your proposal. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Xonen Hadda`ath, if you think that not marrying you indicates a failure of intelligence on her part. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Rofeh Xoley `Amo Yisrael, if you are marrying Rn. Pippik because you need a kidney transplant, and she has the same blood type as you. The point is that individuals are allowed to utter certain kinds of prayers, that the tzibbur is not allowed to say. Now, there are special laws about rain, such that, if an entire community needs rain, a tzibbur is allowed to ask for it. But that is only because our Sages have enacted laws permitting it. Otherwise it would be forbidden. Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah. Or if the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition of the `Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, unless a good strong rain would sweep the frogs back into the river where they came from. It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed to make. Unrelated to the above, in your earlier post, you mispronounced "seiruv". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 23 05:20:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:20:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? A. The Meiri (Sefer Magen Avos 23) writes that Taanis Esther is different than other communal fast days. Other communal fast days commemorate events of tragedy, while Taanis Esther is a day of celebration, for on that day, the Jews of old fasted before going to war (Mishna Berura 686:2), merited to have Hashem listen to their plea and overcame their enemies. This contrast is reflected in the following halacha: The Gemara (Megila 5a) states that when the 9th day of Av falls on Shabbos, the fast of Tisha B?av is delayed until Sunday. We do not observe the fast before Shabbos because one should postpone, rather than advance, the commemoration of tragedy. In contrast, when the 13th day of Adar falls on Shabbos, Taanis Esther is observed on the previous Thursday. We may advance the fast since it commemorates a joyous event. By the same token, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l (Halichos Shlomo, Purim 18:6) contrasts Taanis Esther with other fast days with respect to bathing and cutting hair. Although bathing is technically permitted on all fast days except Tisha B?av (Shulchan Oruch 550:1), and hair cutting is acceptable on Tzom Gedalia and Asara B?teves, some are stringent and do not bathe and take haircuts on communal fast days, in keeping with the sad character of the day . This is not the case with Taanis Esther, where everyone agrees that bathing and haircuts are permissible. Rav Zilberstein, shlita (Chashukei Chemed Megila 16b) writes that one may even listen to music. However, Rav Elyashiv, zt?l is quoted in the sefer Ashrei HaIsh (Vol. 3:41:20) as saying that it is inappropriate to listen to music. Taanis Esther is also a day of forgiveness, and music will detract from the solemnity of the day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 23 22:25:48 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 06:25:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices Message-ID: Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim. My question, almost partially addressed in the article, is assuming such a waiver is effective, is it what HKB"H wants of us? Such a waiver certainly would help the children avoid difficult issues, not just event related such as weddings, but every day issues as well. Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the waiver sending the right message? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 24 07:13:33 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:13:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 24 05:31:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:31:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? A. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim falls on erev Shabbos, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbos. (If one eats the Purim seuda later in the day, there will minimal appetite for the Shabbos meal.) The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may lechatchila postpone the seuda up until three hours before sunset. (These three hours refer to sho?os zemanios, which means the length of each hour is proportionate to the length of the day. As an example, three hours of sho?os zemanios before sunset on Purim this year in New York City will be approximately 3:00PM.) Bedieved, if unable to begin the seuda before the three-hour period, one must start the seuda before sunset, which is when Shabbos begins. However, during this three-hour time frame, only a minimal meal should be eaten (a little more than a kibaiya of challah and a small amount of meat and wine) so that one will have an appetite to eat the Friday night seuda. (See Rema 529:1 and Aruch Hashulchan 249:7) If one did not complete the Purim seuda before shkia (sunset), which is when Shabbos begins, the challah must be covered and Kiddush is recited, and then the meal continues. Hamotzi is not recited on the challah since one is in the middle of the meal (OC 271:4 and MB 18). If one drank wine during the first part of the meal, Borei Pri Hagefen is omitted during kiddush (ibid). After the seuda, one davens Kabbalas Shabbos and Maariv. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if the meal continues after sunset, Retzei is recited in Birchas Hamozon, but Al Hanissim is omitted. (One cannot recite both Retzei and Al Hanissim, as this would be contradictory. Since we recite Retzei, this indicates that Shabbos has begun, and Purim has concluded.) YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Feb 24 10:00:02 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:00:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered via Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D.BD.20687.45496306@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 12:18 PM 2/24/2021, avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org wrote: >An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the >salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single >food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, >*different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to >be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT >have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two >types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] The salad that we buy which is sold by someone in Lakewood and is made by Postiv, has the croutons in a separate plastic bag, and hence the salad and the croutons are not mixed tether, but are separate. This to me qualifies as two different foods.. >One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! I do not agree with this. The Jewish Press used to write, "Consult your local COMPETENT Orthodox rabbi." I always took this to mean that not every O rabbi is competent to answer all questions, and I do firmly believe that this is the case. For example, I have in the past had conversations with O rabbis about kashrus, and it quickly became clear that they only had "global" knowledge about hashgachos, but no detailed knowledge. A question like "Whose meat is used in such and such a product?" was met with silence. Again, not every O rabbi has the knowledge to answer all questions. How could any one man know all the nuances of the technological world we live in? Instead of CYLOR, you should write CYLCOR. YL From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 24 15:11:29 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:11:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210224231129.GG18755@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 06:25:48AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning > parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim... If the reason for aveilus running more than sheloshim is kibud (or yir'as) av va'eim rather than aveilus itself, granting them this ability would be very logical. Like doing anything else for one's parent; if they don't want it done, there is no chiyuv to do it. (For yir'ah too -- you can get reshus from a parent to sit in their seat.) To answer your question > Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they > choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand > in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the > waiver sending the right message? It depends why the parents gave them reshus. No? It could be the parent is doing the child a favor. It could be the parent believes they are better served without it. And I could picture very different answers to your questions in those two scenarios. A mother might have waved aveilus because family is important to her, and she wants her children to be able to go to the cousin's wedding that is coming up. It may be greater kibud eim to obey her accomodating going to her niece's wedding. Alternatively, mom might know her child really want to get to their friend's upcoming wedding, and doesn't want you making major sacrifices. If indeed months 2-12 are all about kibud or eimah, and the request is for the parents' sake, the greater kibud av va'eim would be not practicing aveilus. Or maybe, just going to the one wedding. Okay, we need a scenario where the motive is continuous. (The only thing that came to mind is pretty depressing: Dad got his act together, but always regretted the years he was an abusive parent. He would prefer the kapparah of a short aveilus more than a full year of the son being pushed to think about their troubled relationship.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:55:59 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:55:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: > Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many > ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon > (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only > recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? The simple answer is: Minhagim change. That's their nature. One could just as well ask why almost none of the siddurim I've seen use the halacha's text for Haneros Halalu. (It's in O"C 676. Pick your favorite rishon or acharon, and compare what they write to what you say. Cheat sheet available at https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n251.shtml#19) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 08:31:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:31:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Are you or someone you know not going to shul this Purim? (Again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note that you can pause the reading or rewind one minute. Instructions are given at the beginning of the recording. [https://groups.io/img/digest_ico_01.png] Attachments: [X] IMG-20210224-WA0008.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:41:02 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:41:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] HILCHOS PESACH FOR THE PURIM SEUDAH Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin The Rema (in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 695:2) writes that the Seudas Purim, the festive Purim meal, should commence with Divrei Torah. The Mishna Berurah (in Orach Chayim 429, seif katan 2) rules that one must begin learning about Pesach on Purim--which is exactly 30 days before Pesach. Accordingly, putting the Rema and Mishna Berurah together, it is therefore a custom to commence the Purim Seudah with a Halacha about Pesach. In this way, one also connects the Geulah of Purim to the Geulah of Pesach (see Ta?anis 29A, which states that the reason we should increase our simcha to such a great extent in Adar is because it is the commencement of both the miracles of Purim and Pesach). We provide two Halachos for you to begin: 1. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 429:1) begins Hilchos Pesach by writing that it is our Minhag to give wheat to the poor in order to help them celebrate Pesach. The Mishna Berurah (seif katan 3) notes that this Minhag dates back to the time of Chazal. 2. Rabbi Shimon Eider, Z?tl, in the Halachos of Pesach writes that in lieu of wheat, some have the custom to distribute flour or other food supplies. In our time, most communities distribute money for the poor, in order for them to purchase their needs. The leaders of our community do not tax or otherwise assess their constituents, but instead everyone is expected to give to the best of his ability. Hakhel Note: As we connect Matanos L?Evyonim to Ma?os Chitim--let us remember the Pasuk (Yeshaya 1:27): ?Tzion B?Mishpat Tipadeh V?Shaveha B?Tzedaka?--speedily and in our day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:31:53 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:31:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say Message-ID: . R' Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter wrote: > ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the > tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a > prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the 'Amidah. Or if > the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, > the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition > of the 'Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, ... > It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed > to make. Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a prohibition. To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? In any case, my original question (in the thread "Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur") was not about impromptu prayers for special events. It was about established prayers that we can find in the siddur, machzor, or elsewhere. There are many that may be said only with a minyan, and I'm wondering if there are any (beside Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah) that may be said only with*out* a minyan. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:14:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:14:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? A. The Megillah relates that the Jews fought their enemies on the 13th day of Adar. They rested and celebrated on the following day, the 14th of Adar, and that is the day that Purim is generally observed. In the capital city of Shushan there were more enemies of the Jews. The battle lasted two days and they celebrated on the 15th of Adar. Shushan was a walled city and the Rabbis instituted that Shushan and other walled cities such as Yerushalayim would celebrate Purim on the 15th. This is known as Shushan Purim. (See Aruch Hashulchan 668:2-4) The Jewish calendar is set in a manner that the 14th of Adar will never fall on Shabbos, while the 15th of Adar occasionally falls on Shabbos. Some of the mitzvos of Purim cannot be fulfilled on Shabbos, and they are observed instead on Friday and Sunday. In such instances, Purim in Yerushalayim spans three days, and that is why it is called Purim Meshulash (the three day Purim). Here is the breakdown of mitzvos for each day of Purim Meshulash: Friday: Chazal did not want the Megilah to be read on Shabbos out of concern that one might forget it is Shabbos and carry the Megillah in an area where there is no eiruv. Rather, they instituted that the Jews of Yerushalayim read the Megillh on Friday, in conformity with everyone else around the world. Chazal associated the mitzvah of Matanos L?evyonim (giving gifts to the poor) with the reading of the Megillah, so even in Yerushalayim, matanos l?evyonim is given on Friday, even though it is not yet Purim. Rav Ovadya Yosef zt?l (Yechave Daas 1:90) points out that if one has a minhag not to do melacha on Purim (and treat it like Chol Ham?oed), melacha may be performed on Friday (in Yerushalayim), since it is not actually Purim. Shabbos: The Kerias HaTorah of Purim is read on Shabbos, as well as a special Haftorah for Purim. Al Hanissim is inserted in davening and bentching. It is proper to add a special dish to the Shabbos meal in honor of Purim. Since Megillah is not read on Shabbos, it is proper to discuss the halachos of Purim to remind oneself that it is Purim day (Mishnah Berurah 688:16). Sunday: The Purim seuda takes place on Sunday and Mishloach Manos are distributed then as well. We follow the poskim who rule that Al Hanissim is not said in davening or bentching. However, since there is a minority opinion that it should be said, Rav Ovadya Yosef recommends that it be added at the end of bentching in the section of Harachaman. (Harachaman yaaseh imanu nisim v?niflaos k?mo she?asa la?avoseinu ba?yamim ha?heim ba?zman ha?zeh. Bi?yemei Mordechai?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:35:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/2/21 10:31 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar > to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a > chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big > event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's > health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many > tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When > the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the > leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? The obvious analogy is to those countries that need rain when it is not needed in Bavel, and therefore Tal Umatar is not said. The halacha is that each individual in those countries should add "Vesein Tal Umatar Livracha" in Shomea` Tefillah. However the shliach tzibur does not do so, even though each individual he is representing needs rain and did pray for it in his private tefillah. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:43:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:43:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23baca0a-f837-9cb5-c594-5a5aea4b649a@sero.name> On 25/2/21 9:14 am, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Sunday: The Purim /seuda/ takes place on Sunday and /Mishloach Manos/ > are distributed then as well. This is the opinion of the Mechaber, who is nowadays considered the "Mara De'asra" of the whole Eretz Yisrael. But in his day he was not so considered. Yerushalayim had its own rav, the Ralbach, who holds differently; he holds that Seudas Purim and Mishloach Manos should be performed on Shabbos, and thus there is only a 2-day Purim, not 3 days. I assume that in his day the Sefardi community of Yerushalayim followed his psak and not that of the Mechaber in Tzefas. I wonder at what point the community practice changed to that of the Mechaber, and whether this was influenced by the arrival of new immigrants who challenged the existing minhag based on what is written in the Shulchan Aruch. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 14:08:50 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:08:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60ec2494-9da8-8764-525b-2d8fda20d3f3@sero.name> See Malbim, who sees the whole story as a political struggle between Achashverosh and the political establishment. Bavel had been a constitutional monarchy, its kinds bound by the law, and remained so after the Persian kings conquered it. But Achashverosh, having usurped the throne, was not content with this and wanted to change it to an absolute monarchy, where the law is subject to the king, and all the country's wealth is his to spend as he pleases. So he unilaterally moved the capital to Shushan, which had never been an important city before, and then started spending untold fortunes on an endless party, at which his own appointees, servants, and armies were honored ahead of the statesmen and ministers who had been there before him. He was rubbing their faces in the new reality. Then, once he felt that point had been made, he punctuated it by throwing a party for all the commoners whose only yichus was that they happened to live in his new capital city, and at the peak of this party he summoned Vashti, the princess of the ancien regime, to humiliate her and show that she is subject to his whims, because his authority does not derive from her but from his own might. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 07:51:08 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:51:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been > "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber > pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying > otherwise. > Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. I'd like to suggest, aliba d'RMB, how this development (from "two manos" to "two minim") might have occurred. (If he wrote this in his posts, then apologize for not seeing it.) But - today being National V'nahapoch Hu Day - I'll begin at the end of the story. There is a well-known practice nowadays (I will not call it a minhag, and AFAIK not a single posek anywhere requires it) that one's basic "two manos" should be of food that have different brachos. The reason for this (in my eyes, quite obviously) is because of what counts as two "minim". Is a chicken wing and a leg two minim or that same min? What of a cookie and a donut? White wine and red? Two different white wines? Choosing foods of different bracha removes the confusion. Similarly, I can very easily imagine confusion over how large a "maneh" must be. Imagine one piece of roast, and another piece of roast. That could be two portions for an ani, or a half-portion for a teenager. So it evolved into "two minim", which simplified things greatly. Just a guess, of course. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 08:24:12 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:24:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Message-ID: . [[[ I received this a few minutes ago, in an email from a friend. I cannot verify whether it is actually from the RCBC or not, but I'd like to think it is. Just to remind everyone, I am proud to have been originally a resident of Bergen County, whose rabbis almost a year ago had the courage to shut down all the shuls even before the government required them to do so. - Akiva ]]] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Thursday, February 25, 2021 Dear Friends, In response to our recent letter about Purim and Pesach during the pandemic, many of you have asked for more detailed guidelines about how to safely fulfill the various mitzvos of Purim this year. Please see below for additional parameters, and please direct any questions to your local Orthodox rabbi in a masked, socially distanced fashion. We empathize with the general feelings of ?Covid-19 fatigue.? However, we have been informed that a new, more virulent *Galitzianer strain* has been spreading in our community. As such, this is not the time to let our guard down. *Kriyas Hamegillah* Every Jew is obligated to hear the megillah twice on Purim, but safety concerns must take precedence. We recommend that all megillah readings be done in less than 15 minutes, to stay below the CDC time frame for Covid-19 exposure. As breathing is dangerous for everyone, instead of just reading the ten sons of Haman in one breath, the baal korei should attempt to read the entire megillah in one breath. If he must take a breath during the reading, a plastic supermarket bag should be placed over his head. Care should be taken to use one of the thick kosher supermarket bags, not those thin ones from CVS. In addition, while normally a ?hei degusha? is aspirated in words like ?lah? and ?bah,? aspirating is considered a sakanas nefashos and therefore should be avoided, as bedieved the reading is kosher without such aspirated letters. Similarly, the letter ?pei? should be replaced with the softer ?fei? if the meaning of the word is not changed. Perhaps this is why Hashem in His infinite wisdom named the holiday Furim instead of Purim (see Esther 9:26). Finally, we are all familiar with the minhag to read pesukim relating to a threat of death for the Jewish people in Eicha trop. This year many more pesukim refer to deadly threats, such as ?leich kenos es kol hayehudim? (Esther 4:16) and ?vayikahalu hayehudim? (Esther 9:15). To ensure that people do not follow these examples and gather in groups, these pesukim should also be read in Eicha trop. If it does not impede one?s ability to finish reading in less than 15 minutes, one may choose to read the entire megillah in Eicha trop, so as to diminish any feelings of mirth that may lead to a momentary lapse in Covid-19 precautions, chas v?shalom *Matanos L?Evyonim* While giving money to the poor is an important part of the holiday, extreme care must be taken to not infect those who we are trying to help. While paper money is normally handed to the poor on Purim, this will necessitate the giver coming too close to the receiver, thus putting him or her in grave danger. It is also difficult to properly sanitize paper bills with Purell. Therefore, it is recommended to pre-sanitize coins and then throw them at the poor from a distance of at least six feet. *Mishloach Manos* Our usual practice of bringing food to others? homes should be avoided this year, as standing outside someone?s door may inadvertently lead to entering their house. Many of you have asked whether one who pays taxes which are then used to provide free boxes of food to the members of our community can consider this their mishloach manos. Since the distribution of these food boxes is done in a contactless manner, this is an ideal way to fulfill the mitzvah. Those who have not reported sufficient income to require paying taxes should give some money to a wealthier neighbor and thus be considered a meshutaf (partner) in his tax payments. *Seuda* The Purim seuda is usually a festive gathering and is thus the most challenging mitzvah to fulfill this year. In addition, while drinking alcohol is always discouraged, especially on Purim, it is even more inadvisable this year as it would require removing one?s mask. There is a common misconception that the mitzvah of simcha on Purim requires one to be happy the entire day. However, according to most rishonim, the shiur of simcha only requires being happy for a toch kedei dibur - about 3.4 seconds, or 4.2 seconds according to the Chazon Ish. While it is so hard for us to find any joy these days, one can read a posuk of the Torah for a few seconds (quietly, alone, and masked) and thus fulfill the mitzvah of simcha as required on Purim. Please make sure to finish being happy by chatzos so as to have time to prepare for another lonely shabbos. *Lifnim Mishuras Hadin* While none of these restrictions are necessary based on CDC or state guidelines, it is critical that we continue to signal to the world how much more virtuous we are than our ?frummer? brothers and sisters in Passaic, Lakewood, and the Five Towns. We therefore urge everyone to get at least three shots of the vaccine, stay at least eight feet apart, and wear at least two masks (unless that becomes commonplace, in which case we should wear a minimum of three masks). Wishing everyone a safe, meaningful, and safe Purim. The Rabbinical Council of Bergen County -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Feb 28 14:29:21 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 22:29:21 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 25, 2021 12:00:04 pm Message-ID: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the >> tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a >> prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah.... >> > > Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you > have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a > prohibition. > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, > similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh > Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The > community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come > and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, > many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd > unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites > Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either > in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? > This is not going to be a satisfactory answer, but one reason for thinking that it cannot be done, is that it is not done. The scenario that you described above happens frequently: the community arranges a big event, many Psalms are recited, many speeches are given, there is communal prayer -- and the shliax tzibbur adds nothing to the repetition of the `Amida. I have seen it happen, you have seen it happen. This is not an entirely satisfactory answer, because there are plenty of explicitly permitted practices, that are not practiced. Thus, that something is not done, does not necessarily imply that it cannot be done. For example, there is an undisputed halakha of "pores mappah umqaddesh", which would have been the ideal way to fulfil the mitzva of s`udath Purim last week, but I have never seen it done, or ever heard of it done, outside of Jerusalem, which is allowed to have her own customs. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim without wine, early in the day, is not the ideal way of fulfilling the mitzva. The other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise it is theft, and it is a serious sin. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim after working hours is not permitted on a Friday, even if you live in the Diego Ramirez Islands where sunset is late, unless you are pores mappah umqaddesh, because otherwise you are having your s`udath Purim too close to your s`udath Shabbath. And yet, I have never heard of anyone doing it, outside of Jerusalem. So, the fact that something is never done -- even when you think that it would and should be done, if it were permissible -- does not necessary mean that it is not permissible. So, let us look for an answer in the Shulxan `Arukh. Orax Xayyim 119:1 is the first place where it explicitly says that an individual (even when not offering a tefillath n'dava, vide infra) is allowed to insert personal requests in the silent `Amida, although there are earlier allusions to this halakha in 90:15 and 101:4. The halakha makes a point of mentioning, incidentally, that you must phrase your request in the singular, because it is a personal request. Now, let us assume, arguendo, that the shliax tzibbur is permitted to insert communal requests, in the repetition of the `Amida. One would think, that just as there is a halakha in 119:1 explicitly permitting an individual to do such a thing, there would be a parallel halakha a few simanim later, permitting the shliax tzibbur to do such a thing, but there is no such a halakha. Now, of course, the absence of a halakha permitting something does not, in general, mean that it is forbidden; but the author of the Shulxan `Arukh did think, for some reason, that there was a need, in this case, for a halakha permitting it to an individual; I would expect, therefore, that for the same reason -- whatever that reason might be -- there would be a need for a parallel halakha permitting it to the shliax tzibbur, if it were permitted. Moreover, the halakha in 107:2 is that an individual who offers an entirely voluntary prayer, which we call a tefillath n'dava, is obliged to add a personal request in his or her `Amida; and I assume that this is the reason why you are not allowed to offer a tefillath n'dava on Shabbath or Yom Tov, because you are not allowed to add personal requests to the `Amida on Shabbath or Yom Tov. 107:3 states that the tzibbur is not allowed -- is never allowed -- to offer a tefillath n'dava, and I assume that it is for the same reason, that the tzibbur is not allowed to add additional requests to the `Amida. A more thorough answer would discuss other sources -- or at least the Beyth Yosef, since I am making inferences from what is not mentioned in the Shulxan `Arukh -- but I presently lack the time (and perhaps the skill, although that may just be my saintly modesty speaking), to put any more time into a more thorough and better-researched answer. Hopefully, someone who has time to research this question more properly will find it interesting -- because I think it is -- and continue the conversation. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 1 05:25:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:25:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? A. The answer to this question emerges from an unusual story in the Gemarah. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 102b) relates that Rav Ashi referred to the evil King Menashe in a dishonorable way. That night, King Menashe appeared to Rav Ashi in a dream and quizzed him about which part of the bread must one eat first. Rav Ashi did not know the answer and King Menashe taught him that we must begin eating from the area that was baked first. Rav Ashi accepted this ruling and taught this halacha the next morning ?in the name of our teacher, King Menashe?. The Mishnah Berurah (167:1) explains that we honor the beracha by taking the first bite from the part of the bread that was most baked. This halacha is codified in Shulchan Aruch (OC 167:1). The Rema writes that since it is not clear which part of our bread bakes first, we should cut a piece from the crusty end of the loaf that contains both the top and the bottom and this piece should be eaten first. Many Kabalistic explanations are given as to the significance of this halacha, and why it was specifically taught by King Menashe. The Ben Ish Chai (Parshas Emor 1:1) writes that this is an absolute obligation. Only if one is elderly and unable to chew the crust may he begin eating the soft center. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 06:29:38 2021 From: allan.engel at gmail.com (allan.engel at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 14:29:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: The concept of employed people taking days off work for holidays does exist. On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 at 14:07, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: The > other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before > or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or > self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise > it is theft, and it is a serious sin. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 2 22:39:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 06:39:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kupat tzedaka Message-ID: I am learning the AH"S hilchot tzedaka and am struck by the poverty in the communities he relates to. This reminded me of imi morati ZL""HH relating her father's description of the grinding poverty in the shtetl. (lots of sociological history in halacha). Of particular interest was his description of how the universal practice of a single communal kupat tzedaka came to an end. Sometimes reality trumps "halacha" and maybe the mimetic tradition fails to restart in cases it should. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 05:24:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:24:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll. Is it preferable for me to recite Hamotzi right away, to minimize the hefsek (delay) between washing and Hamotzi, or should I wait until I return to my table so I can recite Hamotzi on a whole loaf of bread? A. First, let's review the general halochos of hefsek between netilas yadayim and Hamotzi. Shulchan Aruch (OC 166:1) quotes a dispute whether one is required to recite Hamotzi immediately after washing netilas yadayim, or is it not necessary. Because of the uncertainty, the Shulchan Aruch concludes that it is best not to delay. The Rema adds that if one waited between drying their hands and reciting Hamotzi longer than the time it takes to walk 22 amos (approximately 10 seconds), it is considered a hefsek. Nonetheless, the Mishnah Berurah (ibid s?k 6) writes that although it is preferable to make Hamotzi immediately after netilas yadayim, if a significant break did occur, it is not necessary to wash again. However, Igeros Moshe (OC 2:48) notes that speaking between washing and Hamotzi is a more significant hefsek and would necessitate netilas yadayim and a new bracha (unless what was spoken related to the meal). Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 13:35:15 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 21:35:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE Message-ID: The following is from the article The Legacy of RSRH, ZT"L that appears in the Sefer Selected Writings by Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L. Rav Hirsch is usually accepted as the exponent of the Torah im Derech Eretz philosophy. This principle is explained by his grandson, Dr. Isaac Breuer, as follows: "He was strictly opposed to compromise or reconciliation, or even a synthesis: he demanded full and uncompromising rulership of the Torah. The Torah cannot endure co-rulership, far less tolerate it. As a true revolutionary he seized the liberalistic individual, the liberalistic, humanitarian ideal, liberalistic capitalism, and the human intellect, celebrating orgies in the liberalistic science, and dragged them as "circumstances", in the narrowest sense of the word, to the flaming fire of the Torah to be purified or, if need be, to be consumed. As a true revolutionary he solved the unbearable tension between the Torah and the new era which had dawned over the Jews of Western Europe. He invaded the new era with the weapons of the Torah, analyzed and dissected it down to its last ingredients, and then shaped and reformed it until it could be placed at the feet of the Torah, as new nourishment for the Divine fire. The proclamation of the rulership of the Torah over the new era was the historic achievement of Hirsch's life for his own contemporaries." -- ("Hirsch as a Guide to Jewish History'' in Fundamentals of Judaism, published by Feldheim, 1949.) Unfortunately, the principle of Torah im Derech Eretz is grossly misunderstood by our contemporary Jewish orthodoxy. It does not mean that one who is a full-fledged citizen of hedonistic America and at the same time keeps the laws of the Torah, is a follower of Torah im Derech Eretz. Not to violate the laws of the Torah certainly deserves praise and recognition but it is not an embodiment of the Hirschian philosophy. Likewise, an academy dedicated to the study of science and philosophy, not in order to serve the understanding of Torah or to further the aims of the Torah but as the independent search by the human intellect to understand and control the world around -- even when added to a department of profound and very scholarly Torah studies -this is not an outgrowth of the Torah im Derech Eretz Weltanschauung of Samson Raphael Hirsch. Also, a secular university in Israel, albeit under skullcap auspices, complete with Judaic studies, is extremely remote from a Torah im Derech Eretz school even if it has established a "Samson Raphael Hirsch chair" as part of its academic set-up, something which almost borders on blasphemy. The Orthodox professional who is not regularly "koveah ittim batorah", or otherwise lacks in the performance of mitzvohs, or who is immodest in dress or behavior, is not a follower of Samson Raphael Hirsch. From all of Hirsch's prolific writings, it becomes evident that his main concern was to establish the majesty of the Divine Word and the role of the Divine Will as revealed in the Torah, to dominate all the highways and by-ways of mundane life. Those who abuse Torah im Derech Eretz as a "hetter" to lead a life of easygoing and lenient "Yiddishkeit" or those who consider the Hirschian idea as a compromise between the right and the left in Jewish thinking have distorted the meaning of the principle as laid down in the Mishne, Avos, Perek 2, 2: "Beautiful is the study of Torah combined with Derech Eretz for the effort to attain both makes one forget to commit sins". The Torah is not a mere branch of human knowledge, one discipline amongst many others, but rather must the Torah dominate all secular knowledge and all worldly activities. Equally so, the community of Israel, Klal Yisroel, as well as all Kd1il!os and organized communities, be they local or international -- which are all segments of Klal Yisroel -- are not supposed to be mere branches of a neutral Israel but are to be totally independent. The Torah community is not beholden to any non-Torah community and it. does not even recognize its authenticity. This is the essence of the Hirschian Austritt (separation) ideology. The so ailed "Austritt" is the militant vigilance of the conscientious Jew defending the Torah community against all encroachments from the non-Torah powers that be. The "AustrittL" and Torah im Derech Eretz go hand in hand, they form "one package", so to speak, and both these aspects of Hirschian thought have one aim: the total domination of Torah over all thinking and actions of individual and national life. He who separates the rule of the Torah over all facets of the communal life of Kial Yisroel from the rule of the Torah over all human knowledge, in short, he who separates the "Austritt" from Torah im Derech Eretz, renders a disservice to both. Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. It. is none of these. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 3 15:32:08 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:32:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210303233207.GF29384@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 03, 2021 at 01:24:19PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 4 05:52:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:52:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. ---------------------------------- Interesting - You had me till here -I read through the whole piece carefully and it's pretty much what I heard from my rebbeim (and some secular studies teachers)at MTA - not always carried out but certainly the aspiration (and what I've tried to live up to) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Mar 4 04:28:35 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 07:28:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha References: Message-ID: At 06:32 PM 3/3/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up > >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... > > >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal > >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, > >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which > >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes > >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). > >Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to >the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, >wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. > >That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the >washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 4 15:21:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 18:21:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 04, 2021 at 07:28:35AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if > this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, > then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make > Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that bite? Tir'u baTov! -Micha From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 10:40:19 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:40:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . Regarding the seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach - I remember many conversations in years past about making rolls from matza meal to use for these seudos, and we discussed various recipes and what bracha would be said, and whether or not they are allowed on Erev Pesach. Have we ever discussed making a matza meal (or matza farfel) *kugel*? It occurred to me that this would be a very simple solution (for those who eat gebroks, obviously), at least for an early afternoon Seudah Shlishis. A similar idea would be if a cholent could have enough matza in it that its bracha is mezonos. I could raise various issues and questions, but I think the best first step is to ask whether we've already covered this. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Mar 5 07:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 10:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:21 PM 3/4/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a >precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that >bite? You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, no matter what you make it on. YL From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 5 13:35:55 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > no matter what you make it on. And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From larry62341 at optonline.net Sat Mar 6 16:46:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 19:46:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:35 PM 3/5/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > > no matter what you make it on. > >And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > >The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station >to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. > >Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you >are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference >for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. >>Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their >>dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and >>then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. >>According to you it would be preferable to have lechem Mishneh >>next to the sink in the kitchen and make Hamotzi there, since this >>would avoid " an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the >>bread." Yet no one I know makes Hamotzi at the sink in the >>kitchen. Everyone who does not have a sink in their dining room, >>wahses in the kitchen and then walks into the dining room, sits >>down, and then makes Hamotzit. This is clearly the preferable way >>to do things. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 7 08:15:03 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:15:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 07:46:47PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: >> And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >> As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their > dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and > then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi on a shaleim at the washing station. This situation differs from what I wrote in two ways: 1- First, you set up a situation where the pause is far less avoidable. Not the "unnecessary" pause of returning to your table from the washing station when the caterer put bread cubes there to make HaMotzi on which you choose not to use in order to make the berakhah on a shaleim. Besides, sometimes, people can't even know which seat they want until more people entered, they don't want a long line at the washing station and want to wash before the crowd, so they are hunting for a spot after HaMotzi. 2- When you wash for HaMotzi on Shabbos, everyone is up to the same part of the meal. People know that others are between washing and HaMotzi. People at a simchah have a wide variety of start times. The odds that you are greeted and might reply, or they might not understand why you aren't replying, are significant. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of http://www.aishdas.org/asp heights as long as he works his wings. Author: Widen Your Tent But if he relaxes them for but one minute, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF he plummets downward. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 08:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 11:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a >piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay >at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi >on a shaleim at the washing station. Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should preferably be made sitting not standing. At the washing station you are standing, At your table you are presumably sitting. This is an important difference. Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 10:16:54 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 13:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sitting for Hamotzi Message-ID: <3D.0D.01388.9E815406@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/85596/need-to-sit-for-hamotzi Is there an obligation or a custom to sit down while saying hamotzi? What about for the other before blessings (borei minei mezonot, borei pri adamah, borei pri ha'etz, and shehakol nihiye bidvaro)? 1 Answer The Pri Megadim (opening to Brachos, 18) specifically states that there is no obligation to sit down for the Birchos HaNehenin (including the Hamotzi) However, Chazal (Gitin p. 70) and so in the Rambam (Deios chapter 4 Halacha 3) state that for good health and Derech Eretz one should eat while sitting. And since bread is being eaten while seated, as stated in the Mor Vektzia (mark 8) that "all things that are being done standing, the blessing should also be done standing. But things done while sitting, it is not proper to bless while standing, as in Birchas Hanehenin, but Bediavad Yatza" YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 8 00:54:46 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 08:54:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha Message-ID: I can not now locate the most recent thread about the Meshech Chochma's shita on kedusha, can't get the archive search to work, but IIRC R'MB said the MC holds consistently that kedusha is never inherent to an object, it is an outcome of Jewish input. It always requires human involvement. So when my pre-hesder son came home from a few days sampling the avira ruchani at Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavneh brandishing a source sheet from a shuir on cheit ha'egel, I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way. If we mess up our attitude to the place or object in question, the kedusha is removed. Seems clear from his language that he's saying the kedusha does not originate in our actions. It always originates with Hashem for the benefit of our relationship with him, and lasts only as long as that is maintained and as long as it serves that purpose. So WRT to the first luchos - 'Ein bahem kedusha mi'tzad atzmam. Rak bishvilchem she'atem shomrim osam'. If we damage the relationship mi'meila no more kedusha, We can't create kedusha except so far as the Torah specifies, ie still originating in Hashem's tzivui, but we can destroy it. This, I think, is a far less radical take on kedusha and answers my questions as to how the MC's model of kedusha applies to kohanim and to time. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:15:24 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210308181520.GA21061@aishdas.org> On Sun, Mar 07, 2021 at 11:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should > preferably be made sitting not standing... This was the main point of the OU Halakhah Yomis you started the conversation with: > Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is > preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of > reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an > overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and > 27). The author, you will note, didn't think that standing vs. sitting was an issue. Just time delay vs having a shaleim. I replied that given those two choices, you could take a roll off the table you're seated at with you to the washing stationg. (In terms of this din, it can equally be a roll from another table. But I would think it's wrong to risk that the table you take from doesn't have enough for the people seated there.) If you want to discuss standing, that's an interesting question. Why didn't the author of the OU page not consider making HaMotzi while sitting a factor to weigh? > Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting > which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting > denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. Actually, sitting for Havdalah is a Gra (Maaseh Rav) / Brisk style innovation. Minhag Ashkenaz was to stand (Rama OC 296:6). The reason why this was a much more common minhag than standing for Qiddush is because the meal is eaten sitting. But otherwise, the Kol Bo (41) said we would stand for both, as a show of kavod for the Shabbos Malka. Just as he has us stand for Havdalah. But back to the question of sitting... I don't think the need for qevi'us is invoked for the berakhah itself, but for being yotzei another. (E.g. Tosafos Berakhos 34a, "ho'il". In contrast, the SA OC 167:13 says you can be yotzei others even if everyone is standing). See AhS OC 296:17. He quotes the aforementioned Tosafos saying that since people prepare themselves for Havdalah, there is qevi'us even when standing. And one should stand as the king (King?, or or Who is the Shabbos Malka?) departs. (Except, he notes, according to the Gra.) So, if everyone is making their own HaMotzi at the wedding, sitting vs standing is a non-issue. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You are not a human being in search http://www.aishdas.org/asp of a spiritual experience. You are a Author: Widen Your Tent spiritual being immersed in a human - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:32:15 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:32:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 8 07:24:20 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:24:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] hashgacha pratis Message-ID: <150501d7142f$1caeb8b0$560c2a10$@touchlogic.com> The question (machlokes) if a person's free will allows them to act independently/against Hashems HP has been discussed here many times. I found the following post to be a very insightful and practical nafaka mina between those opinions http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2021/03/rape-does-g-d-want-someone-to-be-raped.html#disqus_thread A young lady once came to me for a theological consultation. This poised cheerful woman told me that when she was 10 she had been raped by two young yeshiva students at a religious summer camp. As a result of this incident she went into severe depression, became suicidal, and was finally placed in a mental hospital for an extended time. She said that baruch hashem, she had recovered and was no longer depressed or obsessed with revenge. Her visit was precipitated by having just seen her assailants walking down the street in Geula in Jerusalem with their wives and children -- as if they had never done anything evil. She said there was only one issue left from her experience which she couldn't come to grips with -- Why did G-d want her to be raped?" All the rabbis she had consulted with told her that it was G-d's will and that while they couldn't explain it that it must have been good and necessary. She just had to accept it as G-d's will. Her problem was that she couldn't accept that she worshipped a G-d that wanted this horrible thing to happen. I answered her that she was being told the dominant Chassidic/kabbalistic view. However I told her that [other] the Rishonim had a different view, i.e., that it is possible for a man to choose to hurt another -- even though G-d doesn't want it to happen. That she will be compensated in the Next World for her suffering but that G-d didn't cause it to happen. She was able to accept that view. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 9 10:22:59 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 13:22:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 9 03:20:10 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:20:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> References: , <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Can't see your take on this in his words. He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Further on in the words I quoted in the last email, the word 'bishvilchem' is vital. It's for 'for you', that's quite different to being 'from you' , ie me'itchem or some similar term. And he uses the term bishvilchem twice twice in that passage. A bit further again: 'ki ein shum kedusha v'inyan eloki klal biladei metzius haBoreh yisbarach shemo'. No reference to our role in maintaining kedusha there. And more broadly, his whole thesis revolves around the misunderstanding that kedusha can be a feature of something in the world independent of ratzon Hashem. So Moshe smashed the luchos to show the people how 'they hadn't achieved the goal of emuna in Hashem and his Torah hatehora'. That is, they had to realise that even the luchos were only kadosh because HKBH willed it. I'm part paraphrasing that section of course but,I think, accurately. It's true, he does also make clear that kedusha is depedant on us. But that's because without us it's meaningless, not because it originates with is. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 08 March 2021 06:32 To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Cc: Ben Bradley Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 9 08:54:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:54:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? Message-ID: From https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/ [https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/%22https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/907310658.webp?mw=500&mh=282%22] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? ? Shulchanaruchharav.com Is one required to stand when making Kiddush? Night Kiddush: [1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush. However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit. [ From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas ... shulchanaruchharav.com Night Kiddush:[1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush.[2] However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit.[3] [>From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.[4]] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas Vayechulu, although they slightly lift their bodies when saying the first words of Yom Hashishi Vayechulu Hashamayim.[5] [The above is all in accordance to Halacha, however, according to Kaballah, Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position.[6] Practically, the Chabad custom is to stand for the night Kiddush by all times, whether on Shabbos or Yom Tov.[7] So is also the Sefaradi custom, to stand for the night Kiddush[8] and so is the custom of some Gedolei Ashkenaz.[9] Other Gedolei Yisrael of Ashkenaz, however, retain the custom to sit while saying Kiddush.[10]] Day Kiddush: Whether one should stand or sit for the day Kiddush follows the same laws as the night Kiddush, of which we ruled that from the letter of the law one may choose to sit or stand, although it is better to sit and that so is the custom.[11] However, according to the ruling of Kabala, it is debated if the day Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position just as the night Kiddush, or if it is to be recited sitting.[12] Practically, many of those who are accustomed to stand for the night Kiddush are accustomed to sit for the day Kiddush.[13] Regarding the Chabad custom for the day Kiddush, there is no clear Chabad custom in this matter [as brought below] and whatever one chooses to do by the day Kiddush he has upon what to rely. Drinking the wine:[14] Even those who are accustomed to reciting Kiddush standing, are to drink the wine after Kiddush only after they sit.[15] [Nonetheless, some are lenient to drink the wine even while standing.[16]] Summary: >From the letter of the law, Kiddush can be said in either a sitting or standing position, and each one contains advantages over the other. Practically, different customs exist regarding if Kiddush is to be said sitting or standing, and each community is to follow their custom. Sefaradim stand for the night Kiddush but sit for the day Kiddush. Amongst Ashkenazim, some sit and others stand for both the night and day Kiddush. The Chabad custom is to recite the night Kiddush standing, although regarding the day Kiddush there is no clear custom. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 10 02:10:39 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:10:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> , <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: I'm stymied at this point by not being able to find the original posts we're referring to. But you state 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over' I think the temporary kedusha of Har Sinai is at least as consistent with the first approach as the second. Har Sinai had kedusha due to its role Hashem giving the Torah. Ma'amad finishes, kedusha ceases. At least as much emphasis on giver as receiver. I still think Shabbos is the proof. It's kadosh because Hashem wills it, period. Its kedusha is for us, to be sure, but our failure to keep it doesn't impact its kedusha. It remains kadosh regardless of our chillul. When it comes to kedusha of places and things, our reponse affects it because it's in our physical domain. Time is not in our domain, we live in it not vice versa, so we can't affect its kedusha. But there's only one overarching model of kedusha, and the principle gorem is Hashem, not us. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 09 March 2021 06:22 To: Ben Bradley Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Thu Mar 11 04:55:54 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 07:55:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah Message-ID: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> See https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/pesach/app/371/a-guide-to- erev-shabbos-that-occurs-on-pesach/ He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah 'Because the bracha on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use rolls for lechem mishneh' What dispute is he referring to? If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. Mordechai cohen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 11 13:17:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 16:17:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah In-Reply-To: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> References: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: <617710ea-0a5a-86a1-c525-a2d8519c63e8@sero.name> On 11/3/21 7:55 am, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah ?Because > the /bracha/?on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use > rolls for /lechem mishneh/? > > What dispute is he referring to? > > If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. > Only if you eat a shiur, which according to some opinions is 4 eggs if you are satisfied from the meal (which I assume you would be). Still, that's not an impossibly huge amount; why not just tell people that they have to eat that much egg matzah? (If you're not satisfied from the meal then the opinions range from 6 eggs to half an issaron, which is 21.6 eggs. Though presumably you'll be satisfied long before then. But in that case the eitza is simply to eat another potato!) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 12 09:19:39 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:19:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] THE HESEIBA VIDEO! Message-ID: HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, explains that Heseiba is not intended to be an act of contortion, but a comfortable way to eat in a reclined fashion, as if one is on a short bed. By clicking here, we present a video of HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, demonstrating how Heseiba should be done YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Sat Mar 13 10:19:59 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 18:19:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Shabbat Goes into Yom Tov In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone seen a discussion of davening Ma'ariv for Yom Tov/Motsa"sh early when Shabbat goes into Yom Tov (e.g. Seder Night) - including the recitation of Va-Todi'einu Shavu'ah Tov and Chodesh Tov Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 10:37:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:37:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: The CRC sent out an email saying that soft matzah is not acceptable for Ashkenazim. The person who knows a great deal about soft matzah is Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky. A google search for Zivotofsky soft matza yields * The Halachic Acceptability of Soft Matzah halachicadventures.com ? 09 of Soft Matzah Rabbi Dr. Ari Z Zivotofsky Dr. Ari Greenspan Introduction The Torah (Shmot 12:18) commands all Jews, men and women alike, to eat matzah on the ?rst night of Pesach; yet nowhere does it explain how to make this required product or how it should look. For most Jews today, matzah is a thin, * The Thick and Thin of the History of Matzah www.hakirah.org ? Vol17Zivotofsky Ari Zivotofsky, Ph.D., is a rabbi and shoh?etand teaches in the Bar Ilan University brain science program. Together they have been researching mesorah, history and halakhah from Jewish communities around the world for over 30 years. They write extensively and lecture worldwide. * Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky www.torahinmotion.org ? sites ? default Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? and more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 06:12:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 13:12:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? A. Ordinarily, after reciting a brocha on food, one may not speak until the beracha takes affect by swallowing a small bite of food. If one spoke before eating, the beracha is invalidated because of the hefsek (interruption) and must be repeated. While this is true for all foods, bread has a unique status. The Mishnah Berurah (167:35) writes that lichatchila (preferably), one should not talk until a kezayis (half the size of an egg) of bread is swallowed. However, if there is a pressing matter, one may converse after swallowing any amount. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if one spoke while chewing on the bread before swallowing, he is uncertain whether it is a beracha livatala (a blessing recited in vain) and perhaps the beracha would need to be repeated. Therefore, this should be avoided. However, the Chayei Adam writes that if a person swallowed some of the taste of the bread while chewing (even if not the actual bread itself), a new beracha is not said. In all cases, one should make an effort to swallow a kezayis of bread before talking. In the next Halacha Yomis we will discuss why bread is different than other foods. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:29:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:29:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315202916.GA25399@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 04:47:11PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the > very first thing we say after benching. [Shefokh chamsekha...] > Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who > "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name"... Thinking "out loud": A polytheist could know there is a Creator, but call on someone else. Or henotheists. Perhaps RSRH believes such people are more likely to be in the opposition, rather than ignorant. And since we switch from amim to mamlakhos, we are switching from peoples to countries, entities with militaries. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:54:45 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:54:45 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: <20210315205445.GC25399@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 03, 2021 at 01:02:59PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that > the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only > give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. Rabbi Yehudah, who authored an earlier version of the three berakhos (goy, bur, ishah) and the rebbe of R Meir who wrote our version says they are "who didn't make me" someone with fewer mitzvos. (Y-mi Berakhos vilna ed. 63b) And the chiyuvim and issurim are there whether or not one lives up to them. Maybe RMA is saying "she'asani Yisrael" would only be a berakhah if a person is on the tzaddiq side of the beinoni line? The Taz has an interesting argument (OC 46:4). He says that if the berakhos were framed as "she'asani", a person might think that nakhriim, slaves or women are less important creations. Rather, we say that while having been created a woman would have been a blessing, I thank the RBSO that I personally was given the role that has even yet more mitzvos than that! So, if RNA wants to build on the Taz, he could be saying the berakhah is thanking G-d for not only creating me with the opportunities to fulfill mitzvos of an X, but even more. On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 07:39:20PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure I understand. Aren't we taught that a Yisrael, even one > who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth > no matter what we do. The way I spun RNAlpert's idea in reply to RJR's post, I avoid this question. Yes, the person remains a Yisrael. But a sinful Yisrael. Like we tell the prospective geir: Why not remain a non-Jew and earn a lichtiger gan eden without all those duties and prohibitions? In any case, there is also the difference between Am Yisrael and Adas Yisrael. "Yisrael, af al pi shechata, Yisrael hu" refers to qedushas Am Yisrael. What RYBS calls the qedushah of the community of fate. But someone who isn't giving the eidus isn't a member of Adas Yisrael; they aren't participating in the qedushah of the community of destiny. The latter is used in the mishnah "Kol Yisrael yeish lahem cheileq le'olam haba" followed by the list of koferim, minim, apiqorsim and mumarim who don't. Because it is specifically all of Adas Yisrael who have a cheileq` RNAlpert could have meant that the berakhah "shelo asani Yisrael" would have meant "Adas Yisrael". But I like my first suggested peshat more. Feels more like something he actually would have said. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:33:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:33:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315213314.GC3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 06:39:57AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor > balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth > floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, > or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying > it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and > Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain > reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, > halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? One is not chayav for killing a tereifah or speeding up the death of a goseis. But it's still retzichah. So, just to get the post more attention, here is my guess: Shimon is oveir retzichah either way. The only question is punishability. Since lemafreia we know that Re'uvein wasn't omeid lamus, one would have said that Shimon's violation is punishable. Except that you set up a situation in which Shimon couldn't have been acting bemeizid and with hasra'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:28:05 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:28:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315212805.GB3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 10:31:53PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax > tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's > health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? I thought "kol hameshaneh mimatbeia shetav'u chakhamim eino ela to'eh" refers to making it a norm. But the similarly phrased "... bibrakhos, lo yatza yedei chovaso", about the chasimah or whether it's a berakhah arukhah, is even once. In personal baqashos... It is one thing to make a tefillah for cholim in a time of need. But one isn't supposed to be inserting the Yehi Ratzon into EVERY Refa'einu for months or years on end. Here, IMHO the justification would be similar to that of adding baqashos to Sh"E during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah. "Zokhreinu lechaim", "Mi Khamokha", etc... Not the chasimos, which aren't baqashos but special seasonal matbeios. Which the Sha"tz says too. So, I would think the Chazan could / should say something in Refa'einu. But my 2 week search for meqoros turned up empty. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:13:38 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:13:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315211338.GA3647@aishdas.org> We discussed this topic around 15 years ago. I ended up asking R Herschel Schachter. He brought proof from the Rama that Ashkenazim weren't making cracker-like matzos in his day. So of course the concept isn't a problem. (That said, I opened the question asking about a specific bakery which had just started taking on-line orders. So RHS reminded me that he hasn't looked at that bakery. While he can say the idea has no problems, he had no idea if the hekhsher checking the implementation is reliable.) You may recall that one of our more active members at the time was making wrap- or more accurately tortilla-like matzos. (Wraps usually contain yeast, and tortillas usually don't.) So the discussion got quite lively. I learned something else interesting in that discussion. Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A person lives with himself for seventy years, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and after it is all over, he still does not Author: Widen Your Tent know himself. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 15:07:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:07:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210315220748.GD3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10:39AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is > the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those > mitzvos? I think > ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem > raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah > kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Yes, this requires that the Borei actually commands them. But it's not quite what I would consider a partnership. G-d "participates" in the sense that according to R Meir Simchah haKohein qedushah is about the Inyan E-loki. The proximate cause is us; we are the only means of bringing that G-dliness into a place or object. R Yitzchak Blau has a lecture on Gush's VBM entitled "Sanctity in the Thought of R. Meir Simcha" at https://www.etzion.org.il/en/sanctity-thought-r-meir-simcha He has more examples there of the MC making statements about qedushah to this effect than I was researching. I was on Shemos 12:21 "mishkhu uqechu" when I found that RYB's lecture. Here's what I was open to: Vehinei yeish leha'arikh, shekol meqomos hamuqdashim ein YESODAM min hadas raq meiha'umah vehasharashim "Yesodam" is underlined in my MC. As he continues, all the das, the religious texts say is "the place where Hashem will choose." It's the places history as the place from where Adam was created and where Yitzchaq was ne'eqad that gives it qedushah. We don't identify a holy location by das, we identify it from the people. Also, "Raq Y-m vekhol EY veHar haMoriah benuyim al hisyachasum la'avoseinu". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 16 04:53:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:53:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). > But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In > which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia > se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Two questions: If a belila raqa is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin? If you need to check the label to determine something or other, then you're admitting that this product does have tzuras hapas, aren't you? The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah or raqa? Akiva Miller From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 16 08:18:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:18:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210316151802.GD3279@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:53:54AM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote: > If a belila rakah is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin?... See the AhS OC 158:28, quoting the BY. Two baked goods, one avah and one raqa. The avah is "lechem gamur hu" and gets hamotzi and benching. And the ones that is rakah and very thin is mezonos and al hamichyah. But, as pas haba bekisnin -- it's a hamotzi if you are qoveia se'udah. BUT in se'ifim 47-48 he talks about a different baked good that is rakah, water and flour poured onto the kirah. The Tur says that it's mezonos normally, hamotzi if you are qoveia' se'udah. The BY says it's always mezonos -- he holds it's not lechem at all. (Which I concluded to mean, not even PhBbK.) In se'if 47, it is mezonos because there is even the littlest liquid underneath it, even if it's just to stick. In 48, there is a goma under it. Goma is apparentlly a pullrush or papyrus leaf. I am guessing that is also about not sticking. A modern factory bakery is greasing the baking surface to prevent sticking, so I assumed the latter se'ifim were closer to our topic. (In fact, it was the only case that stuck in my memory until I went back to the siman and had an "oh yeah!". I was that sure that's the case we typically face.) > The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the > liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba > b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah > or raqa? I didn't mean the ingredient label. I meant check if there is anything written next to the hekhsher. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 16 00:20:30 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:20:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Several individuals have asked me to elucidate my question appearing in Avodah Digest, Vol 39, Issue 23 regarding early minha Maariv on Shabbat going into Yom Tov If you look at the Nosei Kelim in SA OH 293:3 (e.g., Mishna Berura no. 9), it is clear that Davening Minha/Maariv [before and After Plag - with va-Todi'einu in Ma'ariv] early on Shabbat afternoon going into Yom Tov (like this year), is considered a davar Tamu'ah and halakhically dangerous since people may start with preparations for yom tov (Seder) and even melakha - and not wait for Tseit ha-Kokhavim. Hence it is permitted only bi-she'at ha-dehak (See Mishna Berura). The question is whether with the change of clock to DST, starting the Seder as soon as possible after tseit so the young children and zekeinim will be able to stay up for the seder is enough of a She'at ha-dehak to permit it. Two poskim were consulted on 2 Nisan 5781 (March 15, 2021): Rav Asher Zelig Weiss and Rav Avraham Shraga Stiglitz both Shlita - and were meikel in such a case. It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles be lit and the seder begin. Kol Tuv and Pesach Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Ethel and David Resnick Professor Emeritus of Active Oxygen Chemistry Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il. From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 08:19:58 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:19:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cracking the History of Soft Matzah Message-ID: This is a very interesting talk about soft matzah given by Rabbi dr. Ari Zivotofsky las year. The talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/podcast/cracking-the-history-of-soft-matzah Cracking the History of Soft Matzah | Torah In Motion Contact Us. Torah in Motion 3910 Bathurst Street, Suite 307 Toronto, ON M3H 5Z3 Canada Tel: (416) 633-5770 Toll Free: (866) 633-5770 info at torahinmotion.org www.torahinmotion.org The source material for this talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/sites/default/files/podcast/matzah_thick_thin_sources.pdf To whet your appetite about this talk, see the second source about finding moldy bread on Pesach in the above pdf file. YL Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky 1 Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.torahinmotion.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 06:17:26 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 13:17:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? A. Shulchan Aruch (451:26) writes that glass does not absorb and therefore does not need to be kashered. However, Rama (Orach Chaim 451:26) writes that the minhag of Ashkenazim is that glass that had been used with hot chametz may not be used on Pesach even if it was kashered. There are two reasons given for this. One reason is because we compare glass, which is made from sand, to cheres (earthenware), which is made from clay. Just as cheres cannot be kashered, likewise glass may not be kashered. The other reason is because we are concerned that one might not kasher glass properly for fear it might crack. Chayei Adam 125:22 writes that if it is difficult to purchase new drinking glasses for Pesach, glasses, which are used primarily for cold drinks, may be kashered with hagalah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 17 05:12:53 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:12:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance (e.g. distancing to try to save lives rather than to meet technical distance criteria) Thoughts on whether this is a common issue? I guess the other side is not looking at areas outside of ritual as being halachic issues? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at mail.gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:29:35 2021 From: jmeisner at mail.gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:29:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... This is a point that has been made often, even outside of the context of the frum community (Zeynep Tufekci has a number of good articles providing data points): that the fixation with hard rules such as 6 feet and 15 minutes rather than broad principles that could be intelligently applied to specific situations (such as Japan's three C's of avoiding close contact, crowded places, and closed spaces) and a tendency for experts (or politicians, perhaps) to take hold of false certainty (l'hakeil ul'hachmir) rather than a nuance born of an honest acknowledgement of how little we knew are among the greatest systemic failures of the Western COVID response. From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 17 16:05:11 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> References: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210317230511.GH19872@aishdas.org> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... I used a different metaphor in the opening of Widen Your Tent, that of an apprentice to an overly methofical carpenter. (Since it's a book about the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher, I called this chapter, "The Introduction to the Introduction".) The carpenter teaches his apprentice one skill at a time, mastering each in order before moving on to the next. So the young lad learns how to use a hammer, learning how to drive the nail in, straight and true, in just a few blows. Then he is introduced to the screwdriver, in all its variants. And when he learns how to screw into any wood without stripping the threads or the head of a Phillips screwdriver, they move on the trade's various saws. And so on through the whole toolset. In fact, the master teaches his apprentice multiple opinions about proper technique, and even ways to use the tools according to various opinions of how to maximize success at the same time. And then, as they just complete practicing a few ways of joining corners, the master, sadly, dies, leaving the student knowing everything about woodwork, but with only a layman's knowledge of the construction of a cabinet, table, or chair. Or how to build shelves that can support the weight of a library of books, and the like. And the apprentice is even further from any knowledge of how to express himself artistically, such as through detailed woodworking." This problem is worse than the forest vs. the trees. It's knowing how to walk (the "halakh" of halakhah) and not knowing where to go (having a derekh). If you miss the forest for the trees, at least you have trees. If you don't know how to define the goals halakhah are to help you reach in a way that works for you, you could walk the wrong direction. Rav Chananel bar Papa said: What is meant by, "Hear, for I will speak princely things, [and my lips will open with what is right]" (Mishlei 8:6)? Words of Torah are compared to a ruler, to tell you that just as a ruler has power of life and death, so too the words of the Torah [have potential for] life or death. As Rava said: To those who go to the right side of it, it is a sam hachaim, a medicine for life; to those who go to its left, it is a sam hamaves, an elixir of death. - Shabbos 88a In addition to creating a culture where people don't bother thinking about what all the CoVID rules are for, since we're used to just thinking about the rules (to summarize how I heard RJR's point), there is a more direct connection. We've become so obsessed with personal observance, with "frumkeit", that we risk lives in ways that would be unthinkable to true ovedei Hashem. Religion as a literal sam hamaves. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 04:52:56 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 07:52:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Selling Chometz on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In a regular year, Erev Pesach (for those who sell their chometz) is rather simple. For the early morning, we can do whatever we want with our chometz, including eating it, and doing business with it. At a certain point, we must stop eating it, and shortly thereafter, the rav sells all the chometz that we've set aside to a non-Jew. This year, the rav will obviously do this business with the non-Jew before Shabbos; it is a regular business transaction, and all the papers must be signed etc etc etc before Shabbos begins. But exactly when is this kinyan chal? Exactly when is the ownership transferred, and when does the rental of the storage space begin? My point is this thread is to suggest that each person should check with their rav to find out the answer. Perhaps there are ways to do all the paperwork etc before Shabbos, yet have it not take effect until a certain time on Shabbos morning. That would be very convenient. But if it all takes effect on Erev Shabbos, then there are several practical ramifications that people might not realize, especially for those who have reserved some chometz to be eaten on Shabbos. If the sale has already taken place on Erev Shabbos, then all my chometz MUST be gotten rid of on Shabbos morning. If the challah was too large for everyone to eat, I do not have the option of putting the remainder with the chometz to be sold. The sale already took place, and this chometz will remain mine. My only options are to eat it, or do some other form of biur. On the flip side, I also don't have the option of retrieving something from the "chometz to be sold" area. In a normal year, if it is Erev Pesach morning and there is an item in the "to be sold" area that I want to eat, there's no problem eating it. But this year, if the sale already took place on Erev Shabbos, then it is too late. Even entering that area would be a violation of the rental agreement. So if you're planning to sell your chometz this year, please ask your rav when the sale takes effect. Or show me where my logic is mistaken. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 10:14:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non- > compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing > the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the > letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit > of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. > claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than > learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance ... If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz sale contract..." cite: https://collive.com/rabbis-decide-to-unilateraly-sell-chometz-of-europes-jews/ I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. But this is an entirely different case. I appreciate the rabbis' desire to minimize the violations of these tinolos shenishbu. But it seems to me that this mechira would have the effect of totally circumventing the entire halacha of Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach. Details would need to be studied (like the status of chametz that a store acquires during Pesach) but on the simple face of it, this mechira would allow any of us to shop anywhere in chu"l after Pesach (at least b'dieved). The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law says not. When a Jew does melacha on Shabbos, and I want to get hanaah from it, halacha makes distinctions whether the melacha was done b'shogeg or b'meizid. Similar distinctions could have been applied to Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach, but instead, Chazal chose to legislate a boycott, in the hopes that these Jews would mend their ways. CONCLUSION AND DISCLAIMER: I am NOT suggesting that these rabanim are wrong. It is their job to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of such an idea. All I'm saying is that it seems to be a great example of how an implementation of the Letter might go very much against the Spirit. (And if it turns out that this article didn't get the story right, it's still an example of how Letter and Spirit *might* conflict.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 19 09:31:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:31:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? A. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 463:3) rules that flour made from roasted wheat kernels may not be mixed with water on Pesach. Even though wheat that is fully roasted cannot become chometz, we are concerned that perhaps some kernels were not properly roasted, and subsequently, the flour might become chometz when mixed with water. The same concern applies to matzah with flour on its surface. It is forbidden to mix such matzah with water because the flour may not be fully baked and would be susceptible to becoming chometz (MB 463:8). Where there is no perceptible flour in or on the matzah, is there a concern that some of the dough may not have been thoroughly mixed, and within the matzah there may be raw flour that was not fully baked? There are two different customs; Mishnah Berurah (458:4) notes that there are anshei ma?aseh, scrupulous individuals, who act stringently and do not allow matzah to come in contact with water, as perhaps it may contain unbaked flour. Many Chassidim have this custom. However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. Shaarei Teshuva, (OC 460:10) notes that both groups are meritorious. Those who do not eat gebrochts are motivated by yiras shomayim (fear of heaven), lest they inadvertently transgress the laws of Pesach. The ones who are lenient are concerned that not eating gebrochts will limit their simchas (joy of) Yom Tov. Shaarei Teshuva concludes: ?Both groups are pursuing paths for the sake of Heaven, and I declare: And Your people are entirely righteous (Yeshaya 60:21).? I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. " YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Fri Mar 19 05:19:02 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:19:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday Message-ID: <0d4301d71cba$0c5d12c0$25173840$@touchlogic.com> Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Mar 21 14:45:42 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:45:42 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 21, 2021 06:06:56 pm Message-ID: <16163811420.61bcacf5f.47748@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is > ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? > I think you need to clarify this common belief, before you ask the question. The belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may shower on Friday, to prepare for Shabbath, for yourself. Rather, the belief is that public aveluth, on Shabbath, spoils the mood, for others. If other people can notice that you have not showered, then your aveluth is intruding into the public space. If you smell like roses, the belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may nevertheless shower because you feel better when you do. It's not about you. It is the same logic that would allow you to stay (according to some opinions) after the xuppa at your daughter's wedding, if you are in aveluth -- not because you are allowed to celebrate her wedding, but because your absence would reduce her celebration. Of course, this hetter does not apply to weddings where there is a mexitza between the men and the women, because then your daughter cannot know that you are there anyway. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 07:22:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:22:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? A. The second cup of wine at the seder is filled after karpas so that Maggid (the central portion of the Haggadah) will be recited over the cup of wine. The Mishnah Berurah writes that after filling the cup, it is inappropriate to drink a separate cup of wine (Be?ur Halachah 473:3 s.v. Harishus). Both Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichos Shlomo, Hil. Pesach 9:34) and Rav Elyashiv (Shevus Yitzchok, Pesach 9:3) maintain that only wine is restricted, but in cases of necessity, one is permitted to drink water or coffee. Rav Elyashiv explains that unless there is a pressing need, even water should be avoided because the Haggadah should be recited with a sense of awe and reverence (see Mishnah Berurah 473:71). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 10:37:33 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:37:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322173733.GB27896@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 01:14:47PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." It's not really the Spirit vs the Letter of the Law, which is a Pauline concept. It's how much conformance to the spirit of the law are we obligated to obey beyond its letter. > I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even > without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for > people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. I would think because they are unlikely to get hana'ah from the chameitz, and therefore it's a case of zokhin le'adam shelo befanav. Here we would have to argue that consuming stolen chameitz is less than an issur than owning and consuming chameitz. And enough of a clear advantage that you can invoke "zokhin le'adam". So, I don't see: > The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law > says not. Because I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the da'as of the maqneh. So I would have argued the reverse: the spirit of the idea of no Jews owning chameitz on Pesach says it's a great idea, but it seems to me it would be the letter of the law that says it's impossible. As you phrased things, and you feel the halakhos of mechirah are met, there is a spirit of the law not being violated -- he shouln't want to own chameitz. I mean, this is far gentler than "kofin oso af al pi she'omer 'Rotzeh ani!'" I am wondering if there is an "al pi nistar" that is being addressed with even the flimsiest excuse of a sale. (While not a Chabad group, founder R Menachem Margolin and most (? all?) of the other members of RCE and EJA are Lubavitcher Chassidim. So, when I don't understand what they're doing al pi nigleh, I wonder if they have some al pi nistar motive.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp, http://www.aishdas.org/asp And the Torah, its light. Author: Widen Your Tent - based on Mishlei 6:2 - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 09:55:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 12:55:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322165547.GA27896@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:20:30AM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done > until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles > be lit and the seder begin. This is generally what one hears as pesaq. And I understand warning people not to forget that melakhah is prohibited, even for the seder. (The RBSO also had to remind us that melakhah is prohibited even for the Miskan.) But I don't get reason for saying no hakhanah. I would think that since the seder (or any se'udas Yom Tov) is a devar mitzvah, a shevus, such as hakhanah, would be allowed during bein hashemashos. (Assuming no melakhah is involved.) I found some sources when we discussed this back in v33n46. https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n046.shtml#01 The Rambam (Shabbos 254:10), MB 211:28, 30, AhS OC 261:11 (who allows "lidevar mitzvah o tzorekh harbei", arguably not delaying the seder is both.) So I don't know why "everyone" bans setting the table, getting the pillows and kitls out, etc..., until tzeis. It seems to me that the MB and AhS would agree you could start at sheqi'ah. Of course, I'm no poseiq. Just wondering about the gap between what I learned and the generally repeated pesaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow http://www.aishdas.org/asp man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries Author: Widen Your Tent about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 22 14:57:33 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:57:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2205c312-d18c-b963-6a89-e4de0bf1661e@sero.name> On 19/3/21 12:31 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., > citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not > /halachicaly/ mandated, Of course it isn't. Literally nobody claims it is. So what does your citation achieve? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 14:58:13 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 21:58:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] cRc Kashrus Alerts In-Reply-To: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> References: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> Message-ID: ________________________________ Tevilas Keilim Update Having trouble reading this email? View it in your browser.<{{onlineview()}}> [KASHRUTH ALERT HEADER] March 22, 2021 Last year, due to COVID-19 restrictions, consumers who were unable to tovel their new keilim (utensils) before Pesach were advised to make them ownerless (mafkir) to exempt them from tevilah. This was a special leniency due to COVID-19 when the local mikvaos were closed. This year, Boruch Hashem. those restrictions have been lifted as the mikvaos are open and have been deemed safe to use. Accordingly, before using those keilim which were made ownerless last year, one should ?reacquire? them by picking them up and then tovel them (with a bracha, if required). Anyone who is still unable to arrange for the tevila of their kelim due to exigent circumstances should be in touch with us for further instructions. Chag Kasher v'Sameach. ************************************************************************************ TO REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, please send your comment or question to the cRc at info at crcweb.org The cRc?s app is available for the iPhone, Android, Kindle, and BlackBerry 10. For product information see our Web-based Application ASKcRc where kosher consumers can check the kosher status of hechsherim, beverages, liquors, foods, fruits & vegetables, Slurpees, medicines, and more. The information is accessible via a simple search box, and the site is optimized to work on mobile as well as desktop devices. https://ASKcRc.org http://twitter.com/crckosher http://cRcweb.org Chicago Rabbinical Council 2701 W Howard Street Chicago Illinois 60645-1303 United States This email was sent to: llevine at stevens.edu Unsubscribe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 22 15:39:14 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:39:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 16:35:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:35:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder Message-ID: I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of things about the seder. I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. The following is from his Introduction to his Shiurim on the Haggadah: >From my earliest youth, 1 remember that children would ask each other on the first morning of Pesach, "How long did your Seder take?" This was true in my youth, and it is still the case today. If the children were to ask me this now, 1 would answer them, "I made sure to eat the afikoman before chatzos (midnight)." According to some poskim, even the recitation of Halle[ should be completed before chatzos. I must point out that the present-day practice in which all the children read from the prepared sheets they received in school is not exactly in accordance with the mitzvah of and you shall tell to your children, etc. (ibid.). The children have initiated a new mitzvah of and you shall tell to your father and mother, which makes it very challenging to perform the mitzvah of achilas matzah and certainly the achilas a{zkoman - before chatzos. YL YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 20:06:44 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:06:44 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . I wrote about an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." R' Micha Berger wrote: > I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the > da'as of the maqneh. A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak, I'm not going to be the one who says that the Rabbanut is wrong for choosing to do it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 23 06:38:53 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:38:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Preparing for the Seder This Year Message-ID: The following is from today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. Being that this year Shabbos is Erev Pesach when should the preparation of the shank bone, charoses, marror, roasted egg, salt water and checking the romaine lettuce take place? A. Seder preparations should be done on Friday, as it is prohibited to prepare on Shabbos for the next day. (This is known as hachana. One may not even nap on Shabbos and say, ?I am resting now to be alert at the Seder?. See M.B. 290.4.) While it would be permitted to prepare some of these items on Saturday night, it would delay the start of the Seder. Much of the seder focuses on the children, and it is important to start the seder as soon as possible before the children fall asleep (M.B.482.1). According to the Vilna Gaon, horseradish should always be grated immediately before the seder so that it will be sharp. Others say it should be grated before Shabbos and stored in a sealed jar to maintain the sharpness as much as possible. If one forgot to prepare horseradish before Shabbos, the grating should preferably be done with a shinui (deviation, such as grating on a paper towel or turning the grater upside down). Romaine lettuce that requires checking for infestation should be checked before Shabbos. One must be careful to drain the lettuce very well. Otherwise, water might accumulate in the bags, and any parts of the lettuce that soaks in water for more than twenty-four hours may not be used for maror (M.B. 473.38). If salt water was not prepared in advance, it can made on Yom Tov (implication of Mishna Berurah 473:21), though some recommend using a shinui by putting the water in the vessel before the salt (Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 118:4). If charoses was not made before Shabbos, the fruit may be grated on Yom Tov, but the nuts should be prepared with a shinui (Shemiras Shabbos Kihilchoso 7:4) (such as crushing in a bag). No deviation is needed when adding the wine (see M.B.495:8). It is preferable to roast the shank bone and egg before Shabbos. If roasted on Yom Tov, they must be eaten on that day of Yom Tov. Since one may not eat roasted meat or chicken at the seder, the shank bone that was prepared Saturday night must be eaten at the Sunday daytime meal (MB 473:32). In general, one may not prepare food on the first day of Yom Tov if the intention is to consume it on the second day or after Yom Tov. (This would constitute hachana, which is forbidden.) As such, another shank bone and egg will have to be roasted Sunday night for the second seder, and the same is true for the preparation of marror, charoses and salt water. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 23 06:58:06 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:58:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 00:59, Prof. L. Levine wrote: > I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck > the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in > the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to > expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. > Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of > things about the seder. > > I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. ... I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the 14th Nissan). This would suggest short Sedarim. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:29:12 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:29:12 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323142912.GC31103@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:06:44PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi > Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef > Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or > were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that > they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). > So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for > Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak... I did't have that big of a problem with the idea of invoking ZlASbF, where the person wasn't going to get hana'ah from the chameitz. Like the people going to RYEH last minute before Pesach. Or my example of someone in a coma. But if people are alive and well and keeping their chameitz around and don't even know it is sold, it isn't a pure zekhus to sell it. They want their chameitz to use it. So, I don't think this precedent addresses my discomfort with the idea. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element http://www.aishdas.org/asp in us could exist without the human element Author: Widen Your Tent or vice versa. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:57:37 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:57:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323145736.GD31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 01:58:06PM +0000, allan.engel at gmail.com wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night... Assuming they held like R Elazar ben Azariah and like R Eliezer in the two machloqesin discussed on Berakhos 9a. R Aqiva and R Yehoshua hold the mitzvah is until the morning. (The first machloqes is about the word "boqer", the second is how to parse Devarim 16:6 -- do you eat kevo hasemesh (sunset to chatzos), or until mo'eid tzesekha miMitzrayim?) Stam Mishnah Pesachim 10:9 talks about the pesach being metamei the hands after chatzos, because that's when it becomes nosar (TY vilna 71b, TB 120b). Zevachim 37a states that this mishnah is according to R Aqiva. The Rambam (Hil' Qorban Pesach 8:15) says the Pesach is only eaten until midnight kedai leharchiq min ha'aveirah, and deOraisa it's okay all night. So he hold like R Aqiva and R Yehoshua, with the kelal we get from R Gamliel in 1:1 that any mitzvah that is permitted all night deOraisa has a derabbanan making it lekhatchilah before chatzos, leharciq min ha'aveirah. So, whether they were very careful with a safe estimate or chatzos-ish was good enough depended on who they held like. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 23 07:46:28 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:46:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: From a letter to the editor: Although abortion is not necessarily considered to be an act of murder, it is nonetheless prohibited in accordance with Halakha (Jewish law). The statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect, as well. Any modern ruling is based on our teachings that go back to our receiving the Torah at Mount Sinai. The laws that we follow are g-d given and not something that the Jewish people came up with in their 40 years in the desert. The author clearly has no grasp on our true heritage and unfortunately feels that she can opine in an area where she has no expertise. Me- I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? CKVS Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 08:55:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:55:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323155513.GE31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 02:46:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness > of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," > is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a > way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) > that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? There are cases where halakhah grows to cover new situations. In many of them we could have extrapolated very different pesaqim for the new from what exists already. Like, in the case of electricity on Shabbos. So, halakhah grows. Changes in facts on the ground don't drive an "evolution" of halakhah. They're really just a non-obvious case of the above. The whole point of such changes isn't that we switched sides on a machloqes, but that the side chosen in the past doesn't work in the new case. So we need to grow new halakhah for the new situation. Even if on most levels it feels like we're doing the same thing but with a new pesaq. Like educable deaf-mutes. We didn't do away with din cheireish. And anyone uneducable because they can neither hear nor talk would qualify. We just don't have too many people like that any more. (RHS, for example, includes the pesi, the sane but intellectually diabled, as cheireish not shoteh. With implications (e.g.) WRT gittin after brain injury.) And then there are cases of actual evolution, where we are following new pesaqim. Halakhah evolves but according kelalei pesaq. Of course, kelalei pesaq are themselves subject to pesaqim, so they could evolve as well. And precedent isn't the only kelal in pesaq. Or, if precedent shifts unconsciously, mimetically. Like an increase in the number of people who just take it for granted that they should look to the soft-stringencies (baal nefesh yachmir and such) in the MB for their rulings rather than the MB's pesaqim or the AhS's. Or RMF grows in esteem, and LORs shift from R Henkin's pesaqim to spending more time with IM. The publishing (and new editions) of Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhasa similarly changed which pesaqim the LOR spends time analyzing, and which get accepted. So, rulings can in principle change. That was a very legal description. R/Dr Moshe Koppel convinced me of a very Rupture-and-Reconstruction-esque understanding of how halakhah evolves, in which dinim are more like laws of a language. So, at Har Sinai, we didn't need as many pesaqim. We were fully emersed in the halachic language, and had a native speaker's ear for what sounds right. And a good poet, a navi, can know just how and when the rules can be occasionally bent or even more rarely broken. But as we lose that culture we become more like English as a second language students, who need more rules. (And we have no idea what's valid poetic license.) And so, as we lose culture halakhah gains formality and rigidity. A steady shift from a mimetic "sounds right" to a textual law book. Until a rupture can cause a major step in this progression. Moshe dies, laws are lost, Osniel ben Kenaz is meyaseid them again. Numerous dinim were similarly codified by Anshei Keneses haGedolah, this is R/Dr Koppel's take on shakhechum vechazar veyasdum. And then we needed a mishnah, an actual structured code to memorize. Then shas, then writing them down... then rishonim wrote codes, and to add my own example -- the way the AhS and then MB were embraced. That is a kind of evolution where the range of valid practices narrow for a situation that didn't change nor did we learn more about the situation. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:28:39 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:28:39 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Evolved" implies an improvement, to a form more adapted to survival and therefore better. The Jewish view of the way halacha has changed over the years is one of devolution; both when we become more lenient because we don't care as much, and when we become stricter because we need it to correct our tendency to leniency, or because we have lost the knowledge on which our ancestors' leniency depended ("ein anu beki'in"). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:17:14 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:17:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f754e36-46c3-705d-e762-e28417b4da88@sero.name> On 23/3/21 9:58 am, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa > (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the > 14th Nissan). Not necessarily. Sinch chatzos is only a geder to prevent it running past dawn, people may have been generous in calculating it, knowing that if they ran over it by a little it was no big deal. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 23 10:48:22 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:48:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat. I turned to Rabbi Eli Gersten who wrtites the OU's Halacha Yomis Column this very question and I forward his answer with his permission. Question: Regarding: Halacha Yomis - Prepping The Seder Plate Since Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat, why can't Hakhanot for the Seder be done on Shabbat? Yiyasher Kochacha for your informative and lucid articles Chak Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh Answer: Yes, and No. See below what the Chayei Adam [Hilkhot Shabbat U-Moadim, sec. 153:6] writes about being maichen on Shabbos or Yomtov for a davar Mitzvah. There are many rules. Only for a dvar mitzvah, and even then only partial hachana, and done with a shinuy, and not close to end of Shabbos, so it is not obvious... ??? ??? ??? ?-? (????? ??? ???????) ??? ??? ???? ? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????. ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ??????? ???? ???, ??? ????. ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ???? (????? ?? ??? ???? ?"? ???? ???' ??"? ???? ?' ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?' ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?"? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????"? ????? ???? ?? ?' ?"? ????? ?? ????? ??' ??"? ?? ?????? ??' ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??"?), ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????. ??? ???? ?????"? ????? ??"? ??"? ???"? ????? ????? ??????? ????, ?? ??????? ????. ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????. ????? ??? ????? ??"? ?? ???? ??' ???? ??"? ?"?. ???? ?? ??"? ??"? ?? ??"? ????? ????? ??"? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????. ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???, ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ?? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????, ??? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????, ?? ????. ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????. ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????. Rabbi Eli Gersten Rabbinic Coordinator 212-613-8222-phone Gerstene at ou.org Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 16:47:46 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323234746.GC24196@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 05:48:22PM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From > Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often > permitted on Shabbat. I specifically brought up starting at sheqei'ah instead of waiting for tzeis because it then involves two factors and there is STRONG consensus to allow: shevus bein hashemeshos, and lidevar mitzvah. No new sources since last time. Just pointing out that The answer from R Eli Gersten of OU's Halacha Yomis doesn't actually help me understand why we cannot start setting the seder table at sheqi'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When we are no longer able to change a situation http://www.aishdas.org/asp -- just think of an incurable disease such as Author: Widen Your Tent inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF ourselves. - Victor Frankl (MSfM) From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Tue Mar 23 19:35:46 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 02:35:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: <278FC3E1-165C-4DFE-89FF-DA7AD035BF6B@tenzerlunin.com> "I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts?? My thought is that Jewish law is too complex to sum up in a letter to the editor even if everyone reading it is Orthodox. And, of course, Jews who are not Orthodox have a different view of Jewish law. Thus, to say in a letter to the editor that "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so? is correct or incorrect is an exercise of futility. Joseph From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:54:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:54:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Egg Matza on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In last week's issue of Ami magazine (4 Nisan, #510) Rabbi Moshe Taub's column is about Shabbos Erev Pesach. On page 162, he gives ideas for how to do the seudos, writing: "B. Use egg matzah. This would only work for Ashkenazim,..." Why would this not work for Sefaradim? Do they hold that egg matza is not pas habaa bkisnin? Do they hold that Pas habaa bkisnin remains mezonos even when one is kovea seuda on it? Maybe it's just not practical to eat 3-4 kebtitzos of it. Any other ideas? thanks Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 06:38:09 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:38:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Some people do not want to have any chametz on the table Shabbos erev Pesach. Can kosher for Pesach egg matzos be used for lechem mishneh? A. Egg matzah is in the category of pas ha?ba b?kisnin (bread-like items that are usually eaten for a snack). Ordinarily, if one eats egg matzah the bracha is borei minai mezonos, unless it is part of a substantial meal. Nonetheless, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe OC 1:155) writes that if egg matzah is used for lechem Mishnah for a Shabbos meal, the bracha is hamotzi. One should make sure to eat at least a kibaiya (a little more than 2 fl. oz) of egg matzah, in addition to other foods that will be served at the meal. According to many opinions egg matzah can only be eaten as long as chometz can be consumed, which is the end of the fourth hour. The Rema (OC 444:1) writes that in our communities, egg matzah is not eaten on Pesach. Therefore, on erev Pesach one should fulfill shalosh seudos with fruit. The implication of Rema is that egg matzah may not be eaten on erev Pesach in the afternoon. However, the Chok Yaakov (444:1) writes that it is possible that the Rema only meant that one is not required to find egg matzah for Shalosh Seudos since it was uncommon in their communities, but if one had egg matzah it may be eaten. The Sharei Teshuva (444:2) as well writes that there is a basis to be lenient. Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doniels at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:30:39 2021 From: doniels at gmail.com (Danny Schoemann) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:30:39 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months Message-ID: Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles with the source of the name Marcheshvan. Online at https://www.sefaria.org.il/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Even_HaEzer.126.17 (Interestingly enough, in 126:19 he says there's a Kometz under these months, Nison, Iyor, Sivon, Marcheshvon, Shvot, Ador.) Kol Tuv - Danny On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, R' Brent Kaufman wrote: >> Now that the ancient pantheons of gods have been brought up, can anyone >> give an explanation for why the we name our months after Babylonian gods? RMB replied: > Of the ones we know translations for, only Tammuz. Warach Dumuzu means "the month of [the god] Tammuz". > This month, Warach Samnu, which becomes Marcheshvan when mem and yud/vav swap during the borrowing, simply means "8th month". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 03:39:37 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:39:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement Message-ID: The fact it that the Shabbatzi Tzvi movement swept the Jewish world. Many important rabbonim became his followers. For example, see my article "Recife - The First Jewish Community in the New World" The Jewish Press, June 3, 2005, page 32. Glimpses into American Jewish History Part 3. The concluding paragraph there is *After finishing this article I discovered that Rabbi Isaac Aboab da Fonseca was apparently a follower of Shabbtai Tzvi. (See www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. jsp?artid=344&letter=A#810, The Sabbatean Prophets by Matt Goldish page 33, and Sabbatai Sevi by Gershom Scholem, pages 520-522.) To put it mildly, I was shocked, given the greatness of Rabbi Aboab. However, it made me realize how strong the messianic movement in the 17th century must have been to gain adherents of Rabbi Aboab`s caliber. Jacob Sasportas was one of the most violent antagonists of the Shabbethaian movement; he wrote many letters to various communities in Europe, Asia, and Africa, exhorting them to unmask the impostors and to warn the people against them. However, I do not believe that he was considered a gadol by many. So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 10:52:04 2021 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:52:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) In-Reply-To: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> References: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. For example, at https://baisdovyosef.com/2861-a-clean-slate-on-clean-hands/ Rabbi Bartfeld quotes him as stringent on foaming soap. My chevrusa asked Rabbi Felder from Toronto to ask him about this, and he said he is mattir whipped cream from a can on Shabbos /v'harei ha'devarim kal va'chomer/. KT, CKvS, YGB On 3/22/2021 6:39 PM, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%20all.doc?dl=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Avodah mailing list > Avodah at lists.aishdas.org > http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:30:10 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:30:10 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:39:37AM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for him. So, those who wanted to believe had who to rely on. (Kind of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it actually is cosidered "a thing".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Circumstances don't make a person, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they reveal a person. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:34:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:34:22 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193422.GB16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 05:30:39PM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote: > Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles > with the source of the name Marcheshvan. It his conclusion of that discussion says that he considers these explanations derashos, because RYME writes "Amnam be'eemes ein doreshin besheimos". So, I don't think he is repeating them as possible sources as much as derashos some find meaningful. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 13:31:29 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:31:29 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 03:30 PM 3/24/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > >There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei >hador. Didn't help. There was not a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Jacob Sasportas was the one who had the courage to come out against the movement. He was essentially a loan voice. Others either went along with the movement or said nothing. R. Eybeschutz was himself suspected of being a follower of ST. in fact, I believe that his son outwardly became a follower. Whether R. Eybeschutz was indeed a follower was never fully determined. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 17:10:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] R. Eybeschutz and ST In-Reply-To: <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1B.B0.11863.285DB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:24 PM 3/24/2021, micha at aishdas.org wrote: >I grew up living around the corner from the home of R SZ Leiman. He davened >(davens?) in the shteibl where my father sheyichyeh was president. I kind of >heard this story before, in a lot more detail. Which is why my post got >written to begin with. > >You are mistaken. The RYE vs RYE fight was one of many. Keep in mind that Rabbi Eybeschutz was born in 1690, long after Shabbatai Tzvi converted to Islam. Indeed ST died in 1676. Hence he could not have been involved in any discussion about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. Rabbi Yaakov Emden was born in 1697, so he also could not have been involved in any discussions about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz Already in Prague 1724, he was suspected of being a Sabbatean. He even got up on Yom Kippur to denounce the Sabbatean movement, but he remained suspected.[2] Therefore, In 1736, Rav Eybeschutz was only appointed dayan of Prague and not chief rabbi. He became rabbi of Metz in 1741. In 1750, he was elected rabbi of the "Three Communities:" Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbek. In July 1725, the Ashkenazic beit din of Amsterdam issued a ban of excommunication on the entire Sabbatian sect (kat ha-ma?aminim). Writings of Sabbatian nature found by the beit Din at that time were attributed to Rav Eybeschutz [3] In early September, similar excommunication proclamations were issued by the batei din of Frankfurt and the triple community of Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbeck. The three bans were printed and circulated in other Jewish communities throughout Europe.[4] Rabbi Ezekiel Katzenellenbogen, the chief rabbi of the Triple Community [5] was unwilling to attack Rav Eybesch?tz publicly, mentioning that ?greater than him have fallen and crumbled? and that ?there is nothing we can do to him? [6] However, Rabbi Katzenelenbogen stated that one of the texts found by the Amsterdam beit din "Va-Avo ha-Yom el ha-Ayyin? was authored by Rav Jonathan Eybesch?tz and declared that the all copies of the work that were in circulation should be immediately burned. [7]As a result of Rav Eybeschutz and other rabbis in Prague formulating a new (and different) ban against Sabbatianism shortly after the other bans were published, his reputation was restored and Rav Eybeschutz was regarded as having been totally vindicated.[8] The issue was to arise again, albeit tangentially, in the 1751 dispute between Rav Emden and Rav Eybeschutz. Sabbatian controversy Rav Eybesch?tz again became suspected of harboring secret Sabbatean beliefs because of a dispute that arose concerning the amulets which he was suspected of issuing. It was alleged that these amulets recognized the Messianic claims of Sabbatai Zevi.[9] The controversy started when Rav Yaakov Emden found serious connections between the Kabbalistic and homiletic writings of Rav Eybeschutz with those of the known Sabbatean Judah Leib Prossnitz, whom Rav Eybesch?tz knew from his days in Prossnitz.[2] Rabbi Jacob Emden accused him of heresy.[9] The majority of the rabbis in Poland, Moravia, and Bohemia, as well as the leaders of the Three Communities supported Rav Eybesch?tz: the accusation was "utterly incredible"?in 1725, Rav Eybesch?tz was among the Prague rabbis who excommunicated the Sabbateans. Others suggest that the Rabbis issued this ruling because they feared the repercussions if their leading figure, Rav Eybesch?tz, was found to be a Sabbatean. Rabbi Jacob Emden suggests that the rabbis decided against attacking Eybeschutz out of a reluctance to offend his powerful family and a fear of rich supporters of his living in their communities [10] The recent discovery of notarial copies of the actual amulets found in Metz and copying the amulets written by Rav Eyebeschutz support Rav Emden's view that these are Sabbatean writings.[11] In 1752, the controversy between Rav Emden and Rav Eybesch?tz raged.Clashes between opposing supporters occurred in the streets drawing the attention of the secular authorities.[12] Rav Emden fled. The controversy was heard by both the Senate of Hamburg and by the Royal Court of Denmark. The Hamburg Senate quickly found in favour of Rav Eybeschutz.[13] The King of Denmark asked Rav Eybeschutz to answer a number of questions about the amulets.Conflicting testimony was put forward and the matter remained officially unresolved[14] although the court imposed fines on both parties for civil unrest and ordered that Rav Emden be allowed to return to Altona.[15] At this point Rav Eybeschutz was defended by Carl Anton, a convert to Christianity, but a former disciple of Rav Eybesch?tz.[16] Rav Emden refused to accept the outcome and sent out vicious pamphlets attacking Rav Eybeschutz.[17] Rav Eyebeschutz was re-elected as Chief Rabbi. In December of that year, the Hamburg Senate rejected both the King's decision and the election result. The Senate of Hamburg started an intricate process to determine the powers of Rav Eybesch?tz, and many members of that congregation demanded that he should submit his case to rabbinical authorities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Mar 24 20:30:38 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 23:30:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <018e01d72127$39a11c60$ace35520$@touchlogic.com> RYGB writes.I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. I have personally been present multiple times when Rabbi Bartfeld discusses his questions w RSM. RB often will write them up, and then review his written answer (if complex) with RSM a second time. I can't promise that broken telephone has never occurred, but the process is pretty error free. Offhand I have only found one RB psak that was different than what RSM told me personally (wearing snowshoes where there is no eruv). It is possible that RSM has changed his mind on that issue (it has been 25yrs+ since I asked the original shaylah) As for your question, I personally have discussed whipped cream from a can on Shabbos with RSM and it is true that he is matir, and is also not concerned with the shape (round, T, etc) formed in the whipped cream by the tip either. As for your question from foaming soap, yesh l'tareitz KT, CKvS, MC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Mar 24 10:18:29 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:18:29 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] Correct Spelling Of Foreign Terms In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 24, 2021 02:33:32 pm Message-ID: <16166243090.4D54BC1.92753@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came >> to the Shabbatai Movement? >> > > Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > > There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei > hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for > him. So, those who wanted to believe had who[m] to rely on. (Kind > of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it > actually is co[n]sidered "a thing".) > I don't remember whether I have said this before on this mailing list. If I have, I apologize for the redundancy. The Hebrew words for kimono and sushi are (I am guessing with strong confidence) "kimono" and "sushi". They are foreign terms, describing foreign things, and when we speak Hebrew, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought these terms into our language. (To be more pedantically correct, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought those terms into our language, to the extent that we are able to imitate them. Our ancestors, for example, could not pronounce foreign words that begin with a shva nax, like Platon and specularia and Xshawerosh, but they did the best they could.) The people who believe in Das Torah do not pronounce the word with a pharyngeal, or even a glottal, stop. They pronounce it "Das Torah". And, since Das Torah is a foreign concept, that does not exist in traditional Judaism, it should be pronounced the way it is pronounced by the people who brought the term into our language, for the same reason that we pronounce kimono "kimono", and sushi "sushi". And when we write it with the Latin alphabet, we should write the first word with one 'a', not with two, showing the same fidelity to its correct pronunciation that we do with any other foreign word. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 20:44:52 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:44:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: . R' Yitzchok Levine quoted the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis <<< Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. >>> I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? Do other ingredients affect this? I have always presumed that all kinds of Matza Ashira are a subset of Pas Habaa Bkisnin, excluding any and all Chometz. In other words, flour and whatever you want except water. Am I mistaken? Is the definition more complicated than that? (Note: I was surprised to find such a wide variety of recipes for egg matza. (We had a large crowd on Erev Pesach, so I bought 4 different boxes so people could sample the different flavors.) Streit's has apple cider and eggs. Aviv Egg Matzah has apple juice, egg, and sugar. Aviv Egg & Onion has an unnamed "pure fruit juice" with sugar, onion powder and egg. Manischewitz contains "pure apple or grape juice" and eggs.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 31 01:49:03 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:49:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30/3/21 4:44 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah > ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it > matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? According to the Rambam, 6:5, Matza is only defined as Ashira if it's made with wine, oil, honey, or milk, but if it's made with Mei Perot it's still Lechem Oni. https://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3506.htm#6 -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 15:30:05 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] To Atone for All our Sins Message-ID: At the Seder, after Dayenu, we have a paragraph in which Dayenu is summarized. "He took us out of Mitzrayim... and He fed us manna... and He brought us to Har Sinai, etc etc and He built the Beis Habechira for us, to be m'chaper for our avonos." My daughter-in-law asked: Why do we need those last words? Let the list end simply, like Dayenu itself did: "... and He built the Beis Habechira for us [full stop]." Or, if some sort of editorializing is needed, let it be on a positive note: "... where we can be close to Him" or "...where He can dwell among us." But at this point in the Seder, (arguably) the very last words of Maggid, where we have finally completed our trip from Genai to Shevach, and from Yagon to Simcha, why do we sully the waters by mentioning our sins (even if the context is forgiveness)? My only guess is that these words serve as a bookend to Maggid's start ("In the beginning we were idolators"), but that doesn't help much; is this bookend really needed, or even helpful? Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhecht at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 13:11:38 2021 From: rhecht at gmail.com (Rafael Jason Hecht) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:11:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Techeiles and Bal Tosif Message-ID: Does anyone know if there are any issues regarding Bal Tosif when wearing the new Techeiles today? (As an aside, one speaker who will address this issue is R' Chaim Twerski - https://www.techeiles.org/yom-iyun). Thanks and Good Shabbos, Rafi Hecht *rhecht at gmail.com* ------------------------------------------------------- *LinkedIN:* *http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rafihecht* *Facebook:* *http://www.facebook.com/rhecht* *Twitter:* *https://www.twitter.com/#!/rafihecht* *Personal Site:* *www.rafihecht.com* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Jan 3 05:31:30 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2021 08:31:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? Message-ID: At 09:49 PM 1/2/2021 ,R Micha Berger wrote: >The AhS (se'if 4) gives a reason to put a gartl on even if you are >wearing a belt. The pasuq reads "Hakhon liqras E-lokhekha Yisrael". >The gemara (Shabbos 10a) gives examples of such hakhanos. The AhS brings >down this gemara earlier (se'if 1) and refers to it here. > >Putting on a gartl has become a traditional way to prepare oneself to >meet the RBSO, and even if today's fashion makes it rarely necessary >for ein libo ro'eh es ha'erva, the AhS believes the practice should not >be stopped. > >And that's from the Litvisher poseiq known for finding meqoros for >justifying minhag! I would guess that in Litta, gartelach were far more >common than among today's "Litvish". I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off his tie and used it as a gartel for davening. Rav Schwab said, "He should have left his tie on his neck. He already had a separation between his upper and lower body, since he was wearing a belt. Wearing a tie is appropriate for davening" I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should wear them out. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 07:14:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:14:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103151439.GB20407@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 03, 2021 at 08:31:30AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off > his tie and used it as a gartel for davening.... Yes, it could be that dressing fit for a melekh when speaking to the Melekh Malkhei hamlakhim is more important than putting on a gartel if you are already wearing a belt. Not really relevant to whether one should wear a gartel when there is no such trade-off. > I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After > all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their > tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should > wear them out. Mah inyan shemitah eitzel Har Sinai? The MB and AhS are very different books. One of the more spoken about differences is that the MB is a survey of acharonim who post-date the standardized SA page. The MB therefore leans toward clean-slate theory. He doesn't give much weight to centuries of accepted practice. So, the MB could say something about wearing tzitzis out that no one did. (Also, because he tells you the book is a survey of later sefarim, there is no reason to believe he expected people to follow his seifer lemaaseh. And thus it is less surprising that the CC himself didn't always follow what was written there.) The AhS is famous for finding how accepted practice is theoretically sound. (When possible, of course.) If some hold a gartel is necessary and some not, so that both sides are sound pesaqim, the AhS will almost always side with whatever is being done. Thus, the AhS's pesaq is evidence of what Litvaks held, whereas the MB's pesaq isn't. It's a methodology difference between the two works discussed on-list repeatedly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The goal isn't to live forever, http://www.aishdas.org/asp the goal is to create so mething that will. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 3 06:39:18 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 14:39:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Shimon Schwab on Chillul Hashem Message-ID: The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash pages 191 to 193. Note his message to the embezzler! Living in Caius America, the malchus shel chessed, only strengthens the Jew's obligation to create a kiddush Hashem. The Rav taught that every form of chillul Hashem decreases awareness of the Divine presence in this world. If the perpetrator is supposedly an observant Jew or, worse, a so-called Torah scholar, then the offense is that much greater. He would ask: "How can a person who has cheated his neighbor or defrauded the government have the audacity to stand in front of the congregation and recite Kaddish, a prayer for sanctifying G-d's Name in the world?" The Rav's greatest fear was of a chillul Hashem. On his checks, he never used the title "Rabbi." He told me that he was always concerned that if, G-d forbid, a check were to bounce, "Rabbi" would add to the chillul Hashem. Many years ago, a shameful scandal erupted around a Jewish businessman who was tried for embezzlement. Influential members of the embezzler's community approached Rav Schwab with a plea that he do what he could to save the man from prison. Rav Schwab became extremely agitated. He pointed out that the man's behavior, widely publicized in the media through the printed word and the television screen, had caused a tremendous chillul Hashem; the man had become .a virtual rodef of Kial Yisrael, because Jews everywhere would suffer aniti-Semitism due to his actions. He forthrightly told the visitors that the embezzler deserved to sit in prison for a long time. But he pleaded with them to give the embezzler a message: The m;111 should shave off his beard and take off his yarmulke when appearing i11 court or on television, because by wearing these religious accoutremenh, he would be creating a new chilluf Hashem every day and would be a living disgrace for the Jewish People. In Selected Writings, Rav Schwab wrote extensively on the topic of chilul Hashem: "If one steals from a non-Jew, swears falsely and dies, his death does not atone for his sin because of chillul Hashem (Tosefta Bava Kamma 10). Let us repeat. The profaners and desecrators give us all a rotten name, aiding and abetting our many adversaries and antagonizing our few friends. Therefore, no white-washing, no condoning, no apologizing on behalf of the desecrators. Let us make it clear that anyone who besmirches the sacred Name ceases to be our friend. He has unwittingly defected from our ranks and has joined our antagonists, to make us suffer in his wake. And -noblesse oblige- the more prominent a man in Orthodox Jewish circles, the more obligated he must feel to observe the most painstaking scrupulousness in his dealings with the outside world." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 05:32:03 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 08:32:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Spoiler alert: The reason I'm asking is that I have found some evidence (within Chazal) that a besula *can* become pregnant from her first act. But I don't want to expound on that evidence pointlessly, so I'll come forward only if there really is such a Chazal. Thanks in advance. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 08:36:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 11:36:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai Message-ID: . About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring how authoritative the targumim are. This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the first pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, and in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In my opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that a translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. So I decided to post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear in Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were probably his own. M'inyan l'inyan b'oso inyan... I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer Bereshis (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* translates it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". It's not until Sefer Shemos that Onkelos changes his style. Never again does he leave Ivri as Ivri; we are (or are becoming) a nation, and it seems that Onkelos wants his audience to be able to identify with that nation, by unambiguously translating it as Yehudi. This is true in Shemos 1:15, 1:16, 1:19, 2:6, 2:7, 2:11, 2:13, 3:18, 5:3, 7:16, 9:1, 9:13, and 10:3. (After Parshas Bo, the word Ivri does not appear again in the Torah, with three exceptions: Shmos 21:2, and twice in Devarim 15:12. All three of those are in the context of an Eved Ivri, and Onkelos translates "Ivri" as "Bar Yisrael." I find this to be a very reasonable change: If Onkelos had used either "Ivri" or "Yehudi", then the result would have been ambiguous, possibly meaning an eved who is *owned* by a Jew. By translating as "Bar Yisrael" in those cases, it clearly refers only to an eved who *is* a Jew.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 10:04:47 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 13:04:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Existing practice driving halacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103180447.GA5628@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 07:34:51AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > There's a recurring discussion on the list about the mechanism for > existing Jewish practice being a source for ongoing psak halacha. In view > of which I thought it useful to share an essay by R Hutner in Pachad > Yitzchak on Chanuka, maamar 14. He posits that there are two distinct > drivers of the obligation to maintain any given takana... Isn't this a different topic? Taqanos and gezeiros are dinim derabbanan. And the source of our obligation here would be the source for considering a new halakhah as binding: > the beis din concerned and the extent to which Klal Yisrael accepts and > keeps the takana. Each works independently. But pesaq is an interpretation of existing din. The AhS, noted for his support of minhag Yisrael (as I recently noted yet again on another thread), doesn't pasqen that married women don't have to cover their hair. Instead, he talks about how sad it is that this is the norm, and dicusses the impact of that norm on hilkhos qeri'as Shema. (Seeing a married woman with uncovered hair isn't a distraction when the site is commonplace, and therefore saying Shema in that situation is permitted.) Speaking of the AhS... I have been watching through this round of AhS Yomi, and I don't have a clear picture of his position yet. Sometimes it seems that RYME supports minhag Yisrael for "im lo nevi'im heim" or "she'eiris Yisrael lo yaaseh avlah" type reasons. Collectively, we have siyata diShmaya. At other times it seems RYME is resting on the authority of the centuries of posqim who allowed the practice to flourish. Not directly on the masses, but using common practice as evidence of a silent majority of formal sources. > However there's an important distinction in the mechanism by which > each works. The beis din's takana works through da'as, ie the conscious > decision to enact a practice. In contradistinction, acceptance of any > given practice by klal yisrael works specifically without da'as... Brilliant! The masses are the keepers of mimetic tradition. The second we think about it and plan, it's textual / formal tradition, and requires the expertise of rabbanim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A sick person never rejects a healing procedure http://www.aishdas.org/asp as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what Author: Widen Your Tent other people think when dealing with spiritual - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF matters? - Rav Yisrael Salanter From mgluck at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 16:51:49 2021 From: mgluck at gmail.com (Moshe Y. Gluck) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 19:51:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: R' AM: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? > And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? > > Yevamos 34a. KT, MYG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:07:30 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:07:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fw: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________ The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:23:00 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:23:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? Message-ID: Yesterday my 5-year-old grandson Yisroel Meir Levine ask me the following question. "Zaidie, why do they break a plate and a g;ass at a Chasanah?" A google search yields The breaking of the glass holds multiple meanings. Some say it represents the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Others say it demonstrates that marriage holds sorrow as well as joy and is a representation of the commitment to stand by one another even in hard times I told him about the destruction of the Temple. (I did not give him the cynical reason that I have heard, namely, "This is the last time that the chosson gets to put his foot down!"?) I had no idea why the mothers of the chosson and kallah break a plate as part of making tenaim. A goggle search yields https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/tenaim-the-conditions-of-marriage/ An Old Ceremony From the 12th to the early 19th century, tenaim announced that two families had come to terms on a match between their children. The document setting out their agreement, also called tenaim, would include the dowry and other financial arrangements, the date and time of the huppah [the actual wedding ceremony], and a knas, or penalty, if either party backed out of the deal. After the document was signed and read aloud by an esteemed guest, a piece of crockery was smashed. The origins of this practice are not clear; the most common interpretation is that a shattered dish recalls the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and it is taken to demonstrate that a broken engagement cannot be mended. The broken dish also anticipates the shattered glass that ends the wedding ceremony. In some communities it was customary for all the guests to bring some old piece of crockery to smash on the floor. There is also a tradition that the mothers-in-law-to-be break the plate?a symbolic rending of mother-child ties and an acknowledgment that soon their children will be feeding each other. After the plate breaking, the party began. Does anyone have any more insight into the reason for breaking a plate? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Jan 3 15:49:09 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:49:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0664acd2-f84a-e6f5-b3bb-9355bb8c7e6d@sero.name> On 3/1/21 8:32 am, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me?to that > chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Yes, it is definitely a maamar chazal, found in several places, e.g. Yevamos 34a, Brereshis Raba 45, Yalkut Shimoni Bereshis 16:4. Exceptions include Hagar, Lot's daughters, Tamar, *perhaps* Leah, -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 3 10:45:10 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:45:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? ----------------------------------------------------- ??"? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? (??) ?????? ???' - ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??????: Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Sun Jan 3 22:46:33 2021 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 01:46:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish impact Message-ID: Pirkei Avot Ch. 5 lists several worldwide calamities that God causes or allows to occur in response to Jewish actions or inactions, including ?dever? (plague/pestilence). It is possible that Avot only refers to Israel, not the world, despite the language, ?comes to the world.? Question - is there any source for this ethic being limited to those sins and calamities listed there, or the contrary, for the ethic being extended to sins or calamities not listed there? From sholom at aishdas.org Mon Jan 4 16:27:11 2021 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 19:27:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RAM wrote: > This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the > first > pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, > and > in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In > my > opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to > explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that > a > translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. I don't understand the stira. As I learned it: Onkelos was explaining based on a Torah-mi-Sinai *understanding*. > So I decided to > post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear > in > Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were > probably > his own. I was unaware that folks thought otherwise! > I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It > turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer > Bereshis > (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* > translates > it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". I have a Sefer on Onkelos (Drazin and Wagner) which explains that in Berehis he renders Ivri literally, but when the family grew into a nation (in Shemos) he used the nation's name known among his contemporaries. The authors say that it's Onkelos' tendency to update the names of nations and places as they were contemporaneously known. FWIW, -- Sholom From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 4 22:28:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 06:28:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 5 03:43:38 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 11:43:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" Message-ID: I have received two interesting responses to my grandson Yisrael Meir"s question. Ruth Stern wrote "To cite Rav Schwab. A broken glass can be re-blown and then repaired. China, once broken, can?t be repaired. The glass is broken to remember the Bais Hamikdash which will be restored. The broken plate represents the fact that the agreement, Tenaim, cannot be canceled without a get." Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky (who seems to have written an article about almost everything) wrote https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-law/whats-the-truth-about-breaking-a-glass-at-a-wedding/ may have some information you are looking for. This is a comprehensive article about this topic and is well worth reading. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 04:31:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 07:31:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: . (Many thanks to R' Joel Rich and R' Moshe Gluck for sending me valuable sources on this topic.) Yevamos 34a (near the bottom) states that "ain isha mis'aberes b'biah rishona - a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations." On 35b, the Gemara challenges this idea, pointing out that in Bereshis 38, Tamar got pregnant from first relations, which were with Yehuda. The answer is that Tamar had damaged her besulim beforehand, so that she would be able to conceive from Yehuda. (The Gemara adds that although Er and Onan had relations with Tamar, they deliberately did it in such a way that her besulim was not damaged.) On Bereshis 19:36, Rashi gives a similar answer regarding Lot's daughters. Rashi accepts the principle that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," and so he says that they did something which enabled them to conceive. (Rashi's wording is different from that in Yevamos, so it's not clear to me whether he's describing the same procedure. And for the purposes of this thread, the exact procedure doesn;t really matter anyway.) I would like to ask about another case where a woman seems to have conceived from her first relations, and that woman is Leah Imenu. According to Rashi on Bereshis 49:3, Reuven was conceived from Yaakov Avinu's very first drop of semen. How can this be? Did Leah have relations with someone else prior to marrying Yaakov? Did Yaakov have prior relations with Leah, rendering her non-besulah, without emitting? Those ideas are *not* very appealing. The alternative would be to suggest that she did something medically that enabled her to conceive Reuven, but whereas Tamar and Bnos Lot had strong incentives to get pregnant immediately, I don't know what Leah's motivation might have been. Perhaps she was afraid that Yaakov would divorce her when Rachel became available, so she tried to lock him in by getting pregnant? Before clicking "send", I searched for an answer yet again, and this time I found it. The Ohr Hachayim on this pasuk (Bereshis 49:3) is very long, and near the very end (paragraph beginning "Gam ramaz") he quotes Rashi and writes: "From this you learn that [Yaakov] did not have relations with [her] besulim, rather he removed [her] besulim with a finger, so that he would not waste that drop. So you have learned that even during the act, physical desire did not overpower him, and his act was a totally holy thing." Alternatively, https://mg.alhatorah.org/Parshan/Rid/Bereshit/49.1#m7e0n6 gives the perush of Rav Yeshaya of Trani (Ri"d) on this pasuk, who answers that according to the Yerushalmi, *all* of the Imahos damaged their besulim. He doesn't states where this Yerushalmi can be found, nor does he explain *why* the Imahos would do that, but I suppose it's reasonable to presume that their logic was the same as the Ohr Hachayim has assigned to Yaakov - to prevent wasted seed. Conclusion: I do not know where Chazal got this idea that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," nor have I seen any proof or evidence for it. We do have three stories in the Torah - Lot's daughters, Tamar, and Leah - which *seem* to disprove it, but all three can be understood in a way that does *not* disprove it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Tue Jan 5 07:35:45 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:35:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E.7A.23873.98784FF5@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 08:36 AM 1/5/2021, Joel Rich wrote: >Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom This gemara does not speak about the Chosson breaking a glass under the chuppah. It talks about breaking an expensive vessel to decrease the levity of those at the chasanah. Once the glass (that is not expensive) is broken by the chosson, all sorts of "joy" breaks out to the extent that some rabbonim have called for eliminating this practice. See Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky's article that I posted a link to. YL From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 6 05:19:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:19:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Kibud Av v'Aim Pointers Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin KIBUD AV V?AIM POINTERS A. Unless a parent is knowingly mochel, it is forbidden to refer to your father or mother by their first name (even when requested for identification purposes) without a title of honor preceding the first name, whether or not they are present and whether or not they are alive. When being called to the Torah, one must refer to his father as Reb or Avi Mori. Whenever referring to one?s mother, one can use the title HaIsha or Moras (Yoreh Deah 240:2) B. When honoring parents, very special care and concern must be taken to do it b?sever ponim yofos?pleasantly (Yorah Deah 240:4). The Sefer Chareidim (Mitzvos Asei of the Heart 1:35) and Rav Chaim Shmulevitz (Sichos Mussar 5731:22) both explain that in order to properly perform the mitzvah, one must mentally gain a true appreciation and honor of their parents and literally view them as royalty. Indeed, the Chayei Adom (67:3) known for his succinctness in recording Halacha, writes that the ?Ikar Kibud??the most important [aspect of] Kibud is that ?He should view his parents as GREAT personages and important dignitaries of the land YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 5 15:51:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:51:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210105235158.GA31982@aishdas.org> I was under the impression that Unqelus was credited with recreating through ruach haqodesh the Aramaic translation of the Torah that Ezra had offered. "Shakechum vechazar veyasdum". See Megillah 3a https://www.sefaria.org/Megillah.3a.7-8 I said "Ezra offered because I presumed that the version the gemara refers to from Nechemiah was the same as in Sanhedrin 21b (and the Y-mi Megillah 10a). That the Torah was given originally in Kesav Ivri and Lashon haQodesh, and given again in the days of Ezra in Kesav Ashuris and Lashon Arami. And the Jews selected Ashuris and LhQ. So that Unqelus was chazar veyasad a veritable second giving of the Torah. Which explains why the Tur holds that Shenayim Miqra veEchad Targum means specifically Targum Unqelus. (Not the only shitah, but it does explain the shitah.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From simon.montagu at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 12:09:34 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 22:09:34 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 8:41 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > . > About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring > how authoritative the targumim are. > Since then I've gone into the topic a bit more. Recommended reading: Menahem Kasher "Targum Misinai" in vol. 17 of Tora Shelema (on HebrewBooks starting at https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=51490&st=&pgnum=325) Refael Posen "Targum Misinai" in Sidra 15 ( https://forum.otzar.org/download/file.php?id=32781) and, lehavdil, my own "'Targum Onkelos is from Sinai': Origins and Interpretations of a Tradition', https://www.academia.edu/44849107/_Targum_Onkelos_is_from_Sinai_Origins_and_Interpretations_of_a_Tradition -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mendel at case.edu Wed Jan 6 07:55:50 2021 From: mendel at case.edu (Mendel Singer) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:55:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47b4bce5-c1a8-f300-1f79-5fb268e8cbc0@case.edu> My answer: So when one of the couple drops and breaks a glass or a china plate they can associate it with happy memories and not fight! (Sure, right). ? mendel From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 7 15:57:06 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> On 7/1/21 6:10 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Seforno on Shenmos 4:11: > "Mi sam peh le'adam -- Who gave man a mouth?": > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > > Notice "nasan" is lashon avar, and "sam" -- to give, and what was given > was the natural preconditions that make teva ha'adam, things like a > mouth that speaks. > > It is an interesting circumlocution by the Seforno that seems to say > that a person's biology wasn't created directly, but via processes > Hashem put into place. I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk. The human nature is to have all the necessary natural equipment, physical and neurological, for talking. About sam (past) vs yasim (future), see Malbim. Moshe's hava amina was that a person by default has no power of speech, and Hashem has to put in each person such a power. Therefore since he wasn't given this power it follows that his shlichus in the world doesn't need it. Therefore jobs that do need it, such as leading the people, aren't for him. Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an individual decision by Hashem. But as people are born, "yasum ilem", Hashem makes some of them dumb. It's dumbness that's unnatural, and therefore the result of an individual decision. So Moshe's dumbness, rather than indicating that his shlichus simply doesn't involve speech, actually indicates that his shlichus *does* include dumbness. It's precisely because he is well-known to be dumb that his eloquence on this occasion will be regarded as a miracle and will make people listen to him. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 8 12:57:43 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:57:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created > the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. > Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man > at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi > sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an > individual decision by Hashem.... Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as the thing exists. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sat Jan 9 20:50:34 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 23:50:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <70511e8b-b7ac-5261-ca01-28b581e27dfa@sero.name> On 8/1/21 3:57 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > >> I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created >> the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. > > He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for > humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce > "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. Because he's talking about human nature, not about individual humans. He didn't give humans a "power of speech", He made human nature such that humans can naturally speak. >> Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man >> at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi >> sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an >> individual decision by Hashem.... > > Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad > background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros > implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is > done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as > the thing exists. First of all, the Malbim was not a chassid, so he's not necessarily consistent with the Baal Shem Tov's ideas. And in fact he does not seem to subscribe to the Baal Shem Tov's shita in Hashgacha Pratis. He often writes that the punishment for not doing mitzvos is that Hashgacha Pratis is withdrawn and one is left to the mercy of the random forces of nature. But in this instance there's no contradiction. He's referring to when the decision was/is made that a person should be speaking or dumb. Hashem tells Moshe that He long ago made the decision that human nature would be to be able to speak, so the fact that an individual can speak doesn't mean anything. It's the default human condition. But "yasum ilem", as He creates each individual, He makes certain individuals deviate from the norm and be dumb, and that is always a deliberate decision regarding that individual, and therefore must be meaningful. The fact that each person, whether speaking or dumb, is being constantly created isn't relevant to this point. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 06:08:05 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 14:08:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? A. A general principal in halacha is ?ain bishul achar bishul? (a cooked food cannot be recooked) and it is permissible to reheat cooked food on Shabbos. Nonetheless, there are situations where this does not apply: * Food may not be put on a stove top or in an oven on Shabbos, even if fully cooked, either because it has the appearance of cooking or because one might adjust the flame. This is known as chazara (returning). * According to most opinions, ain bishul achar bishul applies only to solid food and not to liquids. * To qualify for ain bishul achar bishul, the food must be fully cooked. * According to some (Shulchan Aruch OC 318:5), ain bishul achar bishul does not apply to cooking (with liquid) a food that was previously baked or roasted (without liquid) or vice versa. This is because baking and cooking are different modes and doing one after the other may constitute bishul. As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. The Rema rules that one may not even put bread into a kli sheini, a second vessel. (Liquid that was heated on a fire is known as a kli rishon. If that liquid was transferred to another vessel it is referred to as a kli sheini- a second vessel.) However, the Mishnah Berurah (318:47) writes that one may add bread to a kli shelishi (liquid transferred to a third vessel) because the temperature is diminished. Moreover, the Mishnah Berurah (318:45) writes that if a ladle was used, the ladle may be viewed as the kli sheini, and the bowl is treated as a kli shelishi. As such, bread or matzah meal may be added to soup that was placed in a bowl with a ladle. It should be noted that in general it is questionable if raw food may be added to a kli shelishi on Shabbos. Nonetheless, bread may be placed in a kli shelishi because there is a confluence of two uncertainties: a) does cooking occur in a kli shelishi and b) does ain bishul achar bishul apply to a baked food added to a kli rishon? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Jan 11 10:34:15 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 13:34:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <681a1f57-f0e6-eb30-1316-35145df8d4ad@sero.name> However bagels would be OK, since they have already been boiled. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 09:54:54 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 17:54:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning Message-ID: Secular Studies and Torah Learning The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. ?When I was in the illustrious city of Vilna in the presence of the Rav, the light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, the light of the eyes of the exile, the renowned pious one (may Hashem protect and save him) Rav Eliyahu, in the month of Teves 5538 [January 1778], I heard from his holy mouth that according to what a person is lacking in knowledge of the ?other wisdoms,? correspondingly he will be lacking one hundred portions in the wisdom of the Torah, because the Torah and the ?other wisdoms? are inextricably linked together ?? (From the Introduction to the Hebrew translation of Euclid?s book on geometry, Sefer Uklidos [The Hague, 1780] by R. Barukh Schick of Shklov, one of the main talmidim of the Vilna Gaon.) R. Yhonason Eybeschutz in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi in Torah and Science pages 24-25) writes: "For all the sciences are 'condiments' and are necessary for our Torah, such as the science of mathematics, which is the science of measurements and includes the science of numbers, geometry, and algebra and is very essential for the measurements required in connection with the Eglah Arufah and the cities of the Levites and the cities of refuge as well as the Sabbath boundaries of our cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics] is necessary for the judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are used honestly or fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary for the Sanhedrin to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests; furthermore, the need for this science is great in connection with examining witnesses, who claim they stood at a distance and saw the scene, to determine whether the arc of vision extends so far straight or bent. The science of astronomy is a science of the Jews, the secret of leap years to know the paths of the constellations and to sanctify the new moon. The science of nature which includes the science of medicine in general is very important for distinguishing the blood of the Niddah whether it is pure or impure ? and how much more is it necessary when one strikes his fellow man in order to ascertain whether the blow was mortal, and if he died whether he died because of it, and for what disease one may desecrate the Sabbath. Regarding botany, how great is the power of the Sages in connection with kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too we may mention zoology, to know which animals may be hybridized; and chemistry, which is important in connection with the metals used in the tabernacle, etc." In light of the above, I simply do not understand why some yeshiva boys do not receive an adequate secular education and why secular subjects are disparaged in some circles. On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply.? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 11 22:50:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 06:50:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply. ======================================= 1. Difficult to convince someone whose whole education has been devoted to a different approach AND has been told it is the only acceptable approach. 2. I?ve said , I agree it?s all derivable from Torah but isn?t it a more efficient use of time to get it direct rather than derive it? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 12 05:11:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:11:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? A. A hot pot of soup is a kli rishon (primary source of heat) and one may not add cold water to the pot, since this will cook the water. However, a bowl of soup is a kli sheini (secondary source of heat), and water does not cook in a kli sheini. It would therefore seem that one may add cold water to a bowl of soup. Still, the halacha is not so obvious, since there are also pieces of meat or vegetables in the soup. A solid food transferred to a secondary vessel retains the status of a kli rishon according to some poskim. Perhaps we need be concerned that the hot pieces of vegetable or meat may cook the water. The Pri Megadim (253: Aishel Avrohom 32) writes that it is possible that all agree that hot pieces of meat that are submerged in liquid in a kli sheini have the status of a kli sheini and cannot cook. This appears to be the consensus of many poskim (see Pischei Teshuva YD 94:7 and Kitzos Hashulchan 124:39). Therefore, one may add cold water to soup. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 12 14:05:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210112220532.GA5585@aishdas.org> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 02:08:05PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup >> on Shabbos? ... >> As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup >> that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the >> temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes >> is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. >From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at : Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi (MB 318:45)[10]. Before I share footnote #10, which is long and may lose people's attention, let me cite AhS 318:25 who acknowledges that some are machmir WRT bread, but doesn't consider it iqar. And the Rama, who holds like the Raaviyah, that there is no bishul achar afiyah. So, what the OU says "should not" should really be a CYLOR. Now, back to the PH: [10] Those who do not allow dipping bread into hot soup in a kli sheni follow two stringencies: a) They prohibit cooking after baking; b) they defer to the opinion that many foods are considered kalei ha-bishul and thus can become cooked in a kli sheni. Nevertheless, when serving soup using a ladle, according to Maharil, Pri Hadash, and others, the ladle is considered a kli sheni. Accordingly, the soup bowl is a kli shlishi, and in a kli shlishi there is definitely no prohibition. While Taz and Shakh maintain that the ladle is a kli rishon and MB 318:87 follows this approach, nevertheless this is a case of a twofold doubt, and thus one may be lenient (MB 318:45) as long as the ladle does not remain in the kli rishon long enough to reach the same heat as the vessel itself. Soup nuts may be added to a kli sheni even le-khathila, since they are deep fried and are considered cooked rather than baked (SSK 1:70). Furthermore, this further cooking is not desired, as people do not want the soup nuts to get soggy. According to those who maintain that ein bishul ahar afiya (there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been baked), one may definitely toast challah. Additionally, MA 318:17, Mahatzit Ha-shekel, and Hayei Adam (Zikhru Torat Moshe 24:7) would permit this even for those who are stringent about bishul ahar afiya, since they maintain that baking and roasting are the same. In contrast, some are stringent because they maintain that roasting is different from baking (Pri Megadim, Mishbetzot Zahav 318:7; SSK 1:71; Kaf Ha-hayim 318:78; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:6; Menuhat Ahava vol. 2 ch. 10 n. 154). There is even one opinion that expresses concern that this is considered Makeh Be-fatish (applying the finishing touch) (Rav Pe'alim, OH 2:52). In practice, the lenient position (that roasting and baking are the same) seems the more reasonable one, since if one continues to bake food it dries out, and essentially becomes toasted. Nevertheless, one who chooses to be stringent is commendable. This is the case when it comes to completely toasting the bread, but even those who are stringent would allow warming up bread - even to the point that the surface crisps - because doing so does not make a significant change to the baked state. Rav Pe'alim indeed states this in OH 2:52, and Nishmat Shabbat 318:26 states similarly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The greatest discovery of all time is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp a person can change their future Author: Widen Your Tent by merely changing their attitude. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Oprah Winfrey From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 04:55:09 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 07:55:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely does not cook." When I make a coffee on Shabbos morning, I take the water from the urn and put it into a cup. I then pour this water into another cup which is then a kli shlishi. However, the temperature of the water in the second cup is still very hot. Indeed, if I poured it onto my hand I would get scalded. How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup, the kli shlishi? Not very much. The temperature of the water in the second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not cook? At 05:05 PM 1/12/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at >: > > Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent > in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must > make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a > kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in > a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be > considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi > (MB 318:45)[10]. > From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 13 08:03:48 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 11:03:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On 13/1/21 7:55 am, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > > How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water > in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup,? the > kli shlishi? Not very much.? The temperature of the water in the > second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not > cook? Because that's what the halacha says. E.g. see SA Harav 551:34 who explicitly says that the heat of a keli shlishi or revi'i, even if it is yad soledes bo, has no power to cook, although according to some it still has the power to cause absorption and expulsion. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 11:22:20 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:22:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cooking in a Kli Shlishi Message-ID: <03.F5.14965.3C84FFF5@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://ph.yhb.org.il/en/01-10-07/ There is a third type of vessel known as a kli shlishi. If one pours hot water or hot food from the pot in which it was cooked into another vessel, and from that vessel into a third one, that final container is a kli shlishi. The poskim agree that a kli shlishi is unable to cook anything.[6] [6]. In truth, some Acharonim were inclined to be stringent and avoid putting anything raw and easily cooked into a kli shlishi that is yad soledet bo. Thus states Shevitat Ha-Shabbat, Mevashel 23, based on Yere?im. This is also the position of azon Ish regarding kalei ha-bishul ( Hazon Ish, O 52:19). He maintains that as long as the water is hot, no matter how many times removed the vessel is from the original kli rishon, kalei ha-bishul become cooked. AHS 318:28 states this specifically with regard to tea. According to Chayei Adam 20:4, any vessel whose contents are so hot that they would burn someone is capable of cooking. However, according to most poskim, the principle that Bishul does not apply in a kli shlishi is absolute, and any kind of raw food may be introduced into a kli shlishi. MB 318:47 records this based on Pri Megadim. The accepted explanation is that this was the Sages? assumption ? cooking is inconceivable in a kli shlishi. Further, it seems to me that cooking in a vessel that people do not generally use for cooking would not be prohibited by Torah law, since the Torah prohibition applies only to cooking in the usual manner. Since one normally does not cook in a kli sheni, there is no Torah prohibition of putting raw food into a kli sheni. However, foods that cook easily are often cooked in a kli sheni or even by irui from a kli sheni. Therefore, if one places these foods in a kli sheni or pours water on them from a kli sheni, he transgresses a Torah prohibition. However, not even kalei ha-bishul are generally cooked in a kli shlishi, so there is never a Torah prohibition involved. And since in the vast majority of cases one cannot cook in a kli shlishi, the Sages did not prohibit cooking in one in any case.MA, MB 318:34, and Kaf Ha- chayim ?70 state that the halakha follows the first opinion presented in Tosafot, Shabbat 39a. This opinion states that even though a kli sheni does not cook, one may not place raw food into such a vessel because it resembles cooking. One may, however, add spices, since that does not resemble cooking. This is also the position of Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:5. In contrast, R. Ovadia Yosef, basing himself on a number of Rishonim and Acharonim, writes that the halakha follows the second opinion in Tosafot, according to which there is never a concern of resembling cooking in a kli sheni (Ye aveh Da?at 6:22). Some maintain that since we do not know what foods are considered kalei ha-bishul, we must be stringent and refrain from putting any foods into a kli sheni except those that we know are not kalei bishul (Yere?im; Smag). Others maintain that only specific foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul are a concern (Ran; Tur). Rema 318:5 states that the custom is to be stringent, as do MA 318:18; SAH 318:12; ayei Adam 20:4; MB 318:42; SSK 1:59. SA 318:5 cites both opinions and seems inclined to be lenient. This was the inclination of a number of poskim ? that one need be stringent only with foods that are known to cook easily ( azon Ish, O 52:18; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:3). Yalkut Yosef 318:47 also records this as the position of Rambam and Maharam ibn abib. To simplify the matter, I wrote to be consistently stringent in the case of a kli sheni, and consistently lenient in the case of a kli shlishi. Even though it is agreed that one may not pour from a kli sheni onto kalei ha-bishul, nevertheless we have seen that according to most poskim, most foods are not kalei ha-bishul. Moreover, even those who are stringent consider the prohibition rabbinic, since one does not intend to cook. Additionally, pouring will only cook the outer layer of the food, which is less than the amount required to transgress a Torah prohibition, and according to Rashbam this is not considered cooking at all. Therefore, one should only be stringent and refrain from pouring from a kli sheni in the case of foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 13 11:42:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:42:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210113194249.GA11959@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 07:55:09AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely > does not cook." Me neither. But the melakhah is bishul, not cooking. For example, you have two eggs at the same temperature, one heated by a frying pan that used to be on the fire (toledos ha'ur), the other cooking in the sun (toledos hachamah). One is bishul, the other isn't. Or the hot springs of Teveriah. Chazal knew what they were and how hot the waters are. What they didn't know is whether they were warm from the volcanic processes in the ground of from the sun's heat. And despite the water being in a known resulting state, using the hot water to cook something else may or may not be bishul depending on what heated it. In general, our culture is too fixated on science to "get" halakhah. I've been saying this for a while on my own say-so, but R' David Lapin's "Matmanim" podcast had a few shiurim on this topic as well. (RDL is not to be confused with his older brother, R Daniel. R David studied under his uncle, R Elya Lopian, has semicha from R Unterman, founded the South African Instute of Business Ethics, and came in second in the hunt for a successor for the CR of the UK when R/D/L Sacks z"l retired. Matmanim is a daily 15 min shiur (6:45-7am) in the Raanana Kollel. He finds a hashkafic point, "buried trasure", in the day's daf. https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/1528778.rss Back to the point... ) I phrased it in terms of halakhah being about observed and observable reality. As it's our first-hand experiences -- those we had and those we can be held accountable for if we don't bother checking -- that impact us on the gut level, the deeper places of our psyche where decisions are made. RDLapin talks about Torah dealing with relationships, how we relate to an item, rather than facts about the item. When I emailed RDL about it, neither of us were sure whether we are saying the same thing or if there are subtle differences. Either way, we live in an era where progress is so tied to science and technology, that when we hear a word like "bishul" we look for a scientific definition of cooking. Rather, as Rashi says about cooking toledos hachamah, derekh bishul is part of the definition of the melakhah. But it would never be part of a scientific definition of cooking. To support that broad point with another example -- tal and mayim are two diferent of the 7 liquids. Both are H2O, though. Our leap to a physics or chemistry explanation when the relevant sciences may be more psychology and sociology gets in the way of understanding halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If a person does not recognize one's own worth, http://www.aishdas.org/asp how can he appreciate the worth of another? Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 08:07:27 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 11:07:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos Message-ID: In response to my email about making coffee on Shabbos I received the following query: I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? From https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/08/making-tea-and-coffee-on-shabbos/ Instant tea: Some authorities permit using pre-cooked tea leaves. For example, it would be permitted to pour hot water onto the tea leaves before Shabbos and then to pour more hot water onto the same dry leaves to make tea on Shabbos. Some halachic authorities [14] apply the rule that there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been cooked completely. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [15] accepts this as well, but adds that when one pre-cooks the tea before Shabbos, he must leave the hot water on the tea for a while to make sure that it is fully cooked. However, some halachic authorities [16] forbid this practice because the tea leaves are used purely to extract their taste. Therefore, as long as the tea leaves continue to emit taste, they are not considered already cooked. Keli Sheini and Keli Shelishi As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. However, if something is considered mi???kalei ha???bishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein [23] rule that we do not know what foods are mi???kalei ha???bishul, and therefore we need to be concerned that all foods fall into this category unless explicitly excluded in the Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli sheini, because they might be mi???kalei ha???bishul. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [25] is certain that tea is mi???kalei ha???bishul. However, the Chazon Ish [26] argues that one need not be concerned that a given food is mi???kalei ha???bishul unless an explicit source says that it is. [27] R. Hershel Schachter writes that R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik made tea in a keli sheini because he did not consider tea leaves to be mi???kalei ha???bishul, [28] and R. Schachter himself rules this way as well. [29] A keli shelishi (a tertiary vessel, from which something was poured from a keli sheini) may provide a solution to those who are concerned that tea may cook in a keli sheini. Talmudic sources do not mention such a concept, nor do Rishonim (early authorities) distinguish between keli sheini and keli shelishi. To the best of my knowledge, the only Rishon who talks about a keli shelishi is R. Eliezer of Metz, [30] who explicitly says that a keli shelishi is the same as a keli sheini. Nevertheless, many Achronim (later authorities) [31] rule that a keli shelishi does not cook even food that is mi???kalei ha???bishul, or that one need not be concerned that something is mi???kalei ha???bishul when using a keli shelishi (but they hold that in a keli sheini one should be concerned). However, many halachic authorities [32] disagree. The Chazon Ish [33] argues that there is no basis to distinguish in theory between a keli sheini and a keli shelishi. However, he continues, there may be a practical distinction: the Chayei Adam [34] rules that a keli sheini that is extremely hot (yad nichveis bo) will cook. Based on this, the Chazon Ish says that we use a keli shelishi because by the time the item has been transferred twice, it is probably no longer as hot, and therefore one does not need to be concerned for this opinion of the Chayei Adam. [35] Making Tea Using Essence Mishna Berura [36] states that the best way to make tea on Shabbos is to make essence, meaning a very strong tea, before Shabbos. When one wants to drink tea on Shabbos, he can put hot water in the cup, and then add the cold essence. This solution works according to all views because everyone agrees that water is not mi???kalei ha???bishul and therefore will not cook in a keli sheini. ______________ Let me add the caveat that the Jewish Press often added when it came to matters of Halacha. "One should consult one's local competent Orthodox rabbi." YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 16 16:54:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:54:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210117005419.GD21719@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 11:07:27AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli > Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? > > From > ... > As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary > vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does > not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] > Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was > never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. > However, if something is considered mikalei > habishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in > a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, > [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein > [23] rule that we do not know what foods are > mikalei habishul, and therefore we need to > be concerned that all foods fall into this > category unless explicitly excluded in the > Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is > forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli > sheini, because they might be mikalei > habishul... This interestingly touches on the topic I raised in my earlier email about the difference between the halachic concept of "bishul", which is defined by a set of experiences, and the scientific concept of cooking. Tea leaves don't cook easily. I spoke to importers. Making tea doesn't cook the tea leaves. Never mind "easily cooked", they don't cook at all. Which is why one can cold brew tea or make sun tea, without the water being warm, nowhere near yad soledes bo. One could make an argument that tea leaves are tavlin, flavorings that don't cook. After all, when it comes to halakhos like drinking before davening, tea is just flavored water. And from a scientific perspective, what is happening isn't cooking. BUT, is it bishul? Without a rigorous definition of bishul, we cannot rule out the idea that it includes the speed-up of making tea from hours to minutes that is caused by the water's heat. And for all I know, that as-yet-unspecified defining feature of bishul happens easily with tea leaves. (Or at least the crumbs of those leaves found in tea bags.) So, even while the tea experts say that making tea doesn't cook the leaves, that is not enough to force the conclusion that they aren't qalei bishul! Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Jan 15 06:04:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:04:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one make ices on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one make ices on Shabbos? A. The Dovev Meisharim (siman 55) writes that changing water into ice is forbidden on Shabbos. Moreover, he writes that even if the water was placed in the freezer before Shabbos, if it freezes on Shabbos, the ice would still be forbidden because of muktza. The change in form from liquid to solid turns it into a new entity which is muktza. The Chelkas Yaakov (OC 128) and many other poskim disagree on both these points. Not only is ice that forms on Shabbos not muktza, but it is not clear that there is any prohibition to make ice. This is because one does not actually make ice. All one does is place water in a cold environment and the ice forms on its own. Although one may not chop ice with your hands to actively melt it into water, one may place ice in a bowl and let it melt on its own into water. The same should be allowed in reverse. Water should be allowed to freeze into ice on its own. The Chelkas Yaakov is unsure of this last point, and therefore recommends not making ice on Shabbos unless there is a pressing need. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 26 06:05:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 14:05:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? A. In a previous Halacha Yomis we discussed the prohibition of molid rei?ach (causing the absorption of a fragrance or scent). Our current question revolves around whether this restriction applies to the human body as well. This is a matter of dispute among poskim. The Shevet Halevi (1:137) was asked whether using mouthwash on Shabbos is prohibited because of molid rei?ach. He notes that the Taz (511:8), Magen Avrohom (511:11) and Shulchan Aruch Harav (511:7) restrict washing hands with scented water on Shabbos because of molid rei?ach. Obviously, these poskim hold that molid rei?ach applies to the human body as well. However, the Mishnah Berurah (128:23) writes that many Acharonim did not accept this stringency of not using scented water on Shabbos. For example, the Chacham Tzvi (92) proves that molid rei?ach does not apply to the body, since Shulchan Aruch (OC 322:5) permits rubbing scented sticks between one's fingers to release the scent even though the fingers will absorb the fragrance. Accordingly, the Mishnah Berurah makes the following distinction. Adding scented oil to water on Shabbos is prohibited but washing one's hands with previously scented water is acceptable. Some poskim question whether the leniency of the Mishnah Berurah regarding handwashing with scented water applies to other parts of the body. Some suggest that there is room for greater leniency with respect to hands because the scent dissipates quickly (see Piskei Teshuvos 322:7). However, the Shevet Haleivi equates the entire body to hands and allows the use of mouthwash on Shabbos. Similarly, Shmiras Shabbos K?hilchaso (14:36) allows applying perfume on Shabbos (based on the Mishna Berurah), though he cautions against spraying it on clothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 25 14:14:48 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:14:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government Message-ID: Please see pages 6 - 8 of Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" sIIRC Rav Yisroel Salanter would quietly say the prayer for the government if he wad davening in a place that did not say it. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 24 06:48:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 14:48:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Coming of Moshiach Message-ID: I have posted Rav Shimon Schwab's essay on this topic at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/coming_of_moshiach.pdf This essay was written in 1974. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:42:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:42:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: Why didn't Yeshoshua ask HKB"H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Jan 26 16:03:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:03:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70ec8204-43df-9e0b-41fd-6f365220a817@sero.name> > *Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" On page 5 of this pamphlet the author writes that the hooligans of Berachos 10a who harassed R Meir were not Jewish. He gives no source for this, and I wonder where he gets it. I have always assumed they were Jewish and have never seen anything saying otherwise. If they weren't I would have expected the gemara to say so. As far as the prayer for the king is concerned, historically the fact is that in the Russian empire it was not said except in the large shuls where the Czar was likely to know what was happening. But I understand that in the Austro-Hungarian empire it was said everywhere, because the Jews actually liked the Kaiser, and vice versa. The author claims that "The tefillah does not mention a single king but rather a kingdom, since this applies even when there is a democracy". This is just not the case. Every single siddur I have seen with Hanosen Teshua, except in the USA, uses the sovereign's name. He cites Tiferes Yisrael as his source, but the Tiferes Yisrael does not refer at all to the tefillah that is said, but only to the mishnah that recommends the practice. And he does not mention democracy, even though the USA and France existed in his day; what he says is that the mishnah includes countries that are ruled by a group of leaders. In my opinion this nusach is completely inappropriate to the USA, and those shuls here who wish to pray for the country or for the government should use a different nusach written especially for that country. I have seen such nuscha'os printed in various places, that are not simply rewrites of Hanosen Teshua. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:43:41 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:43:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction Message-ID: Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a brother? What was the value at that point? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 06:27:08 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 16:27:08 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a Message-ID: There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is permitted even though it cooks. 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Many of the Rishonim state explicitly that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a metzius. The Rashba there in Shabbos 34b, the Yeraim quoted by many other rishonim and others. Tosafos there also seems to say this because they explain the difference between a kli rishon and a kli sheini based on metzius, that a kli rishon has hot walls while a kli sheini doesn't. The gemara about kalei habishul seems to support this position. The simple reading of the gemara (39a and other places) is that there are certain things that are easily cooked and you are chayav if you cook them in a kli sheini. If it was a din then how wcould you be chayav by kalei habishul? None of the Rishonim (that I saw) say explicitly that it is a din (however see Tosafos shabbos 42a where they discuss a hot bath and other Rishonim (Ramban, Ritva) which could be interpreted this way). However the Ohr Sameach (hilchos shabbos perek 9) goes with this idea explicitly, and explains it as follows. He says that the gemara states that cooking in halacha is defined as by fire or the result of a fire. He says that a kli sheini is so far removed from the fire that it can't be called toldos haeish and therefore is not considered cooking in halacha. This is similar to the din that cooking in the sun is not considered cooking. He explains that kalei habishul is a gezera because people do cook kalei habishul in a kli sheini therefore they prohibited it m'drabbanan. There are a number of practical differences in halacha regarding this question, I will mention 2 of them: 1. If the kli sheini is really hot. The Chayei Adam based on a Rambam in Maaser Sheni holds that if the kli sheini is boiling hot (if you touch it you will get burned) then the rule of kli sheini ayno mevashel doesn't apply. This is clearly going with 2, that it is a metzius, according to the Ohr Sameach it shouldn't matter. 2. Is there a kula of kli shlishi? The Mishna Berura quotes a Pri megadim who is meikel by a kli shlishi by kalei habishul, that you would be permitted to put them in a kli shlishi. The Chazon Ish and others disagree. they hold that there is no difference between a kli sheini and a kli shlishi based on Tosafos, both have cold walls and both have the same amount of heat. If you hold like 2 then the kula of kli shlishi makes no sense. However according to the Ohr Sameach that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a din and the humra by kalei habishul is only a din drabbanan, then it makes sense to say that the gezera was only made on a kli sheini and not on a kli shlishi. At first glance opinion 1 (din) seems much more logical then 2. It seems very difficult to say that the gemara is telling us a metzius without qualifying it. If the Chayei Adam is right how come the gemara didn't warn us about it. The Chayei Adam's scenario is not so uncommon and leads to an issur d'oraysa. The gemara's statement lends itself to be interpreted as a general principle in halacha not a metzius. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 27 06:54:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:54:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?_Tu=92bishvat_is_the_Rosh_Hashanah_=28n?= =?windows-1252?q?ew_year=29_for_trees=2E_What_does_this_mean=3F?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Thursday, January 28th, will be Tu?bishvat, (the fifteenth day of the month of Shvat). Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? A. There is a seven-year cycle of terumos and ma?aseros (various tithes) for produce that grows in the land of Israel. To determine which tithes must be separated, one must know in which year the produce grew. The calendar year for fruit begins on Tu?bishvat. If a fruit reached a certain stage of development called ?onas ha?maaser? before Tu?bishvat, this fruit belongs to last year?s crop and should be tithed accordingly. Fruit that reaches the stage of ?onas ha?maaser? only after Tu?bishvat, belongs to the new year and must be tithed accordingly. One exception to this rule is the esrog, which is tithed according to the year in which it is picked, regardless of when it reaches ?onas ha?maaser? (Shulchan Aruch YD 331:125-126). Tu?bishvat is relevant outside of Israel as well. Tu?bishvat plays a role in the counting of years as relates to the laws of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years). This will be discussed further in tomorrow?s Halacha Yomis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 16:07:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:07:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128000739.GE25301@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 04:27:08PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli > sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is > permitted even though it cooks. Brisk. > 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in > general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Telzh. Except that I would say, "it isn't mevasheil". You cannot assume bishul has the same limits as cooking. We are talking about a tradition in which a bat is a kind of owf. Let's look at ofos for a second, because I find it easier to illustrate my proposed general rule with a noun. We say that an "owf" is a "bird", but that's really only shorthand. One syllable is much easier to teach with than having to say and write "flying living thing". There is still an empirical fact being described. One needn't say that owf, e.g. in the laws of owfos tehoros, is just a category with no empirical basis. But the fact isn't the one we have an easy at-hand English word. Wrong culture. Similarly here, bishul needn't be some Brisker chalos sheim. But it could be a range of physical changes in a substance defined by the use of fire and not e.g. toledos hachamah. I mean, Chazal knew what changes chamei Teveriah were capable of, they just didn't know how the hot springs were hot. But they still made whether it is mevasheil depend on whether it was heated by the sun or by volcanic processes When you get to a keli sheini, you are at quite a remove from the fire, although the heat must be fire-derived heat. OTOH, when you are dealing with kalei bishul, you are closer to the idea of trigerring a physical change. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger What we do for ourselves dies with us. http://www.aishdas.org/asp What we do for others and the world, Author: Widen Your Tent remains and is immortal. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Albert Pine From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 11:26:42 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:26:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> I don't know each stage of Tu biShvat's evolution. Was it always a holiday? In the gemara, Tu biShvat is more like a shiur -- how do you know which fruit go to which terumos uma'aseros? But by the end of the geonim, tachanun was skipped on Tu biShvat. So, even if it wasn't always a holiday, it started turning into one pretty early. Well before the *publication* (so to speak) of the Zohar. So it's not of Qabbalistic roots. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From driceman at optimum.net Wed Jan 27 16:36:43 2021 From: driceman at optimum.net (David Riceman) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:36:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >> RMB: > > There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > >> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >> sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is >> permitted even though it cooks. > > Brisk. > >> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. > > Telzh. Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos). Many years ago one of my rebbeim suggested that microwaves and solar hot water heaters weren?t bishul d?orayysa because they were uncommon, but that their status might change as they became more common. David Riceman From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 10:18:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Shevat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128181856.GE7499@aishdas.org> I asked on Areivim about the origin of Tu biShvat as a yom tov even before getting to questions about the Tu biShvat Seder and how kosher is the Seifer Chemdas Yamim. Someone emailed me this nice summary in reply. I wanted to share with the chevrah. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5009491 Below is the article from after of a discussion of Tu biShvat in Chazal as a shiur for terumos uma'aseros until they run out of history and talk about contemporary custom. About Chemdas Yamim... it's enough that it is a machloqes acharonim whether the book (1) should be treated as Sabbatean, (2) is kosher because its acceptance by so many Mequbalim Qedoshim that is happens not to contain any of the author's Sabbatean heresy (R Chaim Palaggi, Turkey, 19th cent CE), or (2) is a holy book written by R Yisrael Yaaqov al-Gazi. The way academia is structured, particularly what it takes to get published and publish-or-perish there is a built in bias toward debunking things. Too much depends on coming up with novella and their Truthiness. I am therefore skeptical of an academic consensus that shows that the benighted masses outside their ivory towers are wrong. Could be good scholarship, but there are negi'os. So I wouldn't just assume their conclusions are authoritative. (Truthiness, coined by then comedy news editorialist Stephen Colbert, to describe the things we believe because they sound true because we would like them to be true.) There are numerous examples from Middle Eastern history and Biblical Archeology I can point to, where it seems clear that out of two equally plausible theories, the author was biased to pick the one that would dethrone Yeishu. (Like, did the Judean intelligensia captured with Yechaniah teach them about the idea of a messiah and messianic era, or did we get it from Zoroastrianism? Well, saying it's not in original Judaism devalues Oso haIsh, so...) Even when it comes to some Torah journals, I got tired of picking through the articles that seem so plausible until I realized I liked them because of that feeling superiori to the benighted masses or just some clever and very Truthy. Anyway, here's the relevant half of the Chabad.org post, back on topic about Tu biShvat. Tir'u baTov! -Micha Who "Invented" the Holiday on 15 Shevat? Yehuda Shurpin chabad.org ... Yet, neither the Mishnah nor the Talmud tell us about any special celebrations or commemorations associated with the day. Earliest Celebration One of the earliest sources for the 15th of Shevat being a celebratory day is a pair of ancient liturgical poems that were found in the Cairo genizah, a trove of old Torah texts, documents and manuscripts discovered in the 19th century. The poems, composed by Rabbi Yehuda Ben Hillel Halevi around the 10th century, were meant to be added to the prayer service of the day.[9] In a response to a community that wished to establish a fast day on the 15th Shevat, Rabbeinu Gershom (c. 960-1040) explained that just as one does not fast on the other days that are called "the beginning of the year" in the Mishnah, so too, one does not fast on the 15th of Shevat.[10] Additionally, we find in early sources that one doesn't recite penitential prayers on the 15th of Shevat, just as one doesn't recite them on other holidays.[11] Eating Fruits In addition to not fasting and not reciting any penitential prayers, there is also a custom to eat fruits on this day. The first to mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) in his work Tikun Yissachar. This custom was popularized by the Kabbalists and subsequently cited in many halachic works.[12] The somewhat controversial Kabbalistic work of unknown authorship Pri Eitz Hadar (first published in Venice in 1728) was also very influential in spreading the custom to eat fruits on this day. The work includes various texts that one would recite when eating the different fruits. However, the common custom is not to recite these texts when eating fruits on the 15th of Shevat... ... [9] Eretz Yisrael, vol. 4, p. 138. [10] See Responsa of Rabbi Meir of Rottenbug (Prague ed.) 5. [11] See, for example, Maharil, Chilukei Haftorot; Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 131:6. [12] See Magen Avraham, Orach Chaim 131:16; Hashlamah to Shulchan Aruch Harav, Orach Chaim 136:8; Mishnah Berurah 131:31. From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 28 05:44:31 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:44:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?How_does_Tu=92bishvat_impact_the_counti?= =?windows-1252?q?ng_of_years_of_orlah?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. How does Tu?bishvat impact the counting of years of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years)? A. The Torah states, ?When you enter the land and plant any tree for food, you shall regard its fruit as forbidden. Three years it shall be forbidden for you, not to be eaten.? (Vayikra 19:23) From here we learn that one may not eat or derive benefit from fruit that grew during the first three years of a tree?s existence. This fruit is called orlah. This prohibition applies both in the land of Israel as well as in the diaspora. In Israel, fruit that grows in the fourth year has a special kedusha (sanctity) known as ?neta revai?. When calculating a tree?s first three years of existence for orlah, the years need not be complete. Rather, if a new tree grew for a minimum of thirty days before Rosh Hashana, this is treated as the first year of the tree's existence. It is assumed that a tree does not begin to take root and grow until fourteen days have elapsed after planting. Therefore, if a tree is planted on or before the 15 day of Av, which is 44 days before Rosh Hashana, the tree is considered one year old on Rosh Hashana, and Rosh Hashanah marks the beginning of the tree?s second year of growth. If a tree is planted less than 44 days before Rosh Hashanah, one must wait until the following Rosh Hashanah (more than a year) to complete the first year of orlah. However, even after the third Rosh Hashanah marks the completion of three years, the fruit which blossoms in the fourth year before Tu?bishvat is treated as orlah as well. This is because this fruit was nourished from sap that the tree produced before Rosh Hashana. If fruit blossomed after Tu?bishvat of the fourth year, we assume that the fruit was nourished from the current year?s sap, and the fruit is not orlah. The Shach (YD 294:10) quotes the Rosh who notes that in our climate, trees don?t ordinarily blossom before Tu?bishvat, so one may assume that all fruit that is found on the tree in the fourth year is not orlah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 27 20:01:57 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> References: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> Message-ID: As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard date is required to separate them? I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th. Or is that actually the general case, and the exact date only matters in a freak occurrence? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 03:35:39 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 06:35:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> I have often wondered the same thing about so many leaders, both Jewish and not. The precedent set by appointing Yehoshua seems to be a no-brainer, in my view. I am so often disheartened when I see an organization fall apart and descend into total factionalism when its leader passes away. So much strife could be avoided simply by grooming a successor, teaching him the required skills, and making sure that he has the allegiance of the membership. Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. It almost seems like a dereliction of duty. I'd cite examples, but that would surely spur too many bickering side-comments. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 14:04:53 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:04:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128220453.GA13382@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 07:36:43PM -0500, David Riceman via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >>> sheini is not called cooking... >> Brisk. >>> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >>> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. >> Telzh. > Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook > (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos)... I would think that's a metzi'us question, but defining the issur in terms of derekh bishul rather than bishul. That certainly fits the gemara's language, except for the one-word name of the melakhah. In terms of Brisk vs Telzh.... It would still fit under Telzh, in that it's explaining halakhah in terms of realia. Brisk would stop all explanations at halachic categories. More like the "halakhah states ... is not called ..." of number 1. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Imagine waking up tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp with only the things Author: Widen Your Tent we thanked Hashem for today! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Jan 28 20:00:07 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 04:00:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. --------------------------------- Yes and one could posit a number of reasons-some cognitive and some not. That?s what I wonder about. Behavioral psychology offers some reasons for mere mortals but?. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 28 23:16:38 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 02:16:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/1/21 5:58 pm, Alexander Seinfeld via Avodah wrote: > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 > From: Zev Sero >> As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's >> climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard >> date is required to separate them? > >> I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in >> mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't >> matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... > > The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that > time and having a suffik about it's maaser. Yes, but esrogim are different because they stay on the tree all year, and are counted according to the year in which they are picked. That rules does not apply to any other fruit. [Email #2. -micha On 28/1/21 1:18 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah [forwaded from chabad.org]: > The first to > mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in > his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) > in his work Tikun Yissachar. See the Seforim blog post that RYL linked to, which cites earlier sources that Rabbi Shurpin's sources were unaware of. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From marty.bluke at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 02:04:51 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:04:51 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] R e: May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread Message-ID: Rav Meir Twersky in Beis Yitchak suggested this as pshat in tosafos. He suggests that when tosafos explains the difference between kli rishon and kli sheini as whether the walls are hot it is not based on metzius but rather whether it is normal to cook that way. It is normal to cook in a kli rishon because the walls are hot and therefore it is prohibited. It is not normal to cook in a kli sheini because the walls are cold and therefore permitted. Likewise, by kalei habishul since they cook easily people cook then in a kli sheini and therefore you are chayav. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 13:47:11 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:47:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha Message-ID: . Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the very first thing we say after benching. ???????? ????????? ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ??????????? ??? ????????. It is composed of two similar phrases, the first of which contains the preposition "el" and the second uses the preposition "al". And yet, despite this contrast, the great majority of English Tehilims and Haggadas translate both of them as "upon". The main exception is The Psalms, with the perush of Rav RSR Hirsch. He is emphatic that "el" must be translated as "toward" and not as ?upon?. He explains that the first half refers to the nations who have merely failed to recognize God, and we pray for His anger to go *toward* them, that they might come to know and understand. It is only in the second half, which refers to the evil kingdoms who have tried to destroy us, that we pray for God's anger to pour down *upon* them. Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name". To me, both can refer to people who are simply ignorant of Hashem, or perhaps both can refer to people who actively deny Hashem. But I don't see how one group is more or less evil than the other. Perhaps he gets it by contrasting "nations" and "kingdoms". If anyone can offer ideas, I'd appreciate it. In any case, it seems clear to me that the author of this Tehillim strove to distinguish between "el" and "al", and those who recite the Haggada in English might want to take note of this. Hat tip to ArtScroll's Interlinear Tehillim, from which I've been reciting Tehillim recently. True to the advertising, I have found it very helpful in understanding what I'm saying. It really does take no more than a glance to see what the more difficult words mean. A few days ago, I wasn't even paying much attention to the English - not on a conscious level at least! But my peripheral vision was surprised to see "el" being translated as "upon", and it jarred me into further research. I will also note that although the preposition "el" is best translated as "to" or "towards" in the vast majority of cases, there are indeed some exceptions, as noted by Rashi on Bereshis 20:2. It is possible that some might consider Tehillim 79:6 to be in that category, but in my view, the contrast between "el" and "al" makes that very unlikely. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 04:27:13 2021 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 23:27:13 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Milk is Produced also by non-Kosher parts of the Cow Message-ID: The Gemara Chullin 69a documents a very strange discussion. R Yirmiyah asks - is the milk from a cow that has an Issur Yotzeh, Kosher? An Issur Yotzeh is generated when a foetus in utero extends a limb to the outside and then the mother is Shechted. That limb is permanently prohibited and cannot be made Kosher. The rest of the foetus is Kosher. The Gemara explains - ALL milk ought to be Assur, because it comes from a living animal and is like Eiver Min HaChay, and only by force of a special Limmud is it Kosher. On the one hand perhaps that also permits the milk of the cow with the Issur Yotzeh on the other hand, perhaps the Torah only permits milk from a prohibited source which CAN BE revoked via Shechita, whereas the Issur Yotzeh cannot ever be revoked which makes the milk Assur. Why is the Issur Yotzeh different from the Cheilev and Gid that are present in every cow that produces milk? Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:04:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:04:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220449.GB31611@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 03:43:41AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's > first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a > brother? What was the value at that point? isn't a parent supposed to make sure children learn from their mistakes rather than repeat them? Knowing to watch what you're saying has broad applicability in life. If Yaaqov makes sure they see they have that problem, they are that less likely to say too much in other situations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:01:31 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] min hatorah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220131.GA31611@aishdas.org> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 05:22:09PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote: > He begins his chapter on Mevo HaTalmud by saying that most matters learned > from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash, based upon > the references you and I have cited, as well as several others. So, it > comes out that Chazal had a kabalah that these matters were in Torah > Shebe-al Peh MiSinai, but knew that they were not indicated in Toras Moshe, > or could not find any such indication. But they pointed out that they found > that they were eventually committed to either explicit or drash-indicated > writing in Nach. An exception can be found in an oft-cited pasuq, in Yeshiah 57:13 (used by many in / as an introduction to Shabbos morning Qiddush). Mentions a number of shevusim, including masa umatan. I can see how a pasuq in Tanakh can be cited to show there is some TSBP that was already in place and in practice by the time the navi recorded the. But how can we prove whether those pre-existing dinim are really deOraisa? Seems that "mo "most matters learned from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash" could have numerous exceptions. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:02:59 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:02:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:04:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:04:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Soloveitchik Message-ID: Thoughts on the following as applied to Rabbi JB Soloveitchik? James Gleick-"There are two kinds of geniuses: the 'ordinary' and the 'magicians'. An ordinary genius is a fellow whom you and I would be just as good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how his mind works. Once we understand what they've done, we feel certain that we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is a magician of the highest caliber." The Feynman Algorithm: Write down the problem. Think real hard. Write down the solution. The Feynman algorithm was facetiously suggested by Murray Gell-Mann, a colleague of Feynman, in a New York Times interview. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 16:57:10 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:57:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee Message-ID: . This past August, R' Yitzhok Levine cited the OU's "Halacha Yomis": > From https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/i-will-be-travelling-and-would-like-to-know-if-there-is-a-concern-of-bishul-akum-with-coffee-a-consumers-question > I will be travelling and would like to know if there is a concern > of bishul akum with coffee? (A consumer's question) > OU Kosher Certification > > Ostensibly, the prohibition of bishul akum should apply to coffee. As > previously explained, a cooked food which cannot be eaten raw and is > "oleh al shulchan melachim" (served at fancy dinners) requires bishul > Yisroel. Raw coffee beans are inedible, a... > > See the above URL for more. In a subsequent post, I quoted the conclusion of that paragraph, which was: > Nonetheless, the Pri Chodosh writes that brewed coffee need > not be bishul Yisroel, since coffee is primarily water, and > water does not require bishul Yisroel. I have been uneasy with the idea that "primarily water" could be sufficient reason to downgrade the chashivus of a food to the point where it would be exempt from Bishul Yisroel. R' Micha Berger (in this same thread) pointed out that Bishul Yisroel and Chamar Medina seem to have different standards of chashivus. Another halacha that may be related to the above appeared in today's Halacha Yomis, at https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/must-terumah-and-maaser-tithes-be-separated-from-tea-or-herbal-leaves-that-are-grown-in-israel > Must Terumah and Ma'aser (tithes) be separated from tea or > herbal leaves that are grown in Israel? > > Tosofos (Nida 50a s.v. Kol) writes that there are two categories > of spices with regard to Teruma and Ma'aser: a) Spices that are > eaten together with other foods. These require the separation of > teruma and ma'aser. b) Spices that are removed after the cooking > and are discarded. These do not require Teruma and Ma'aser. It > should follow that tea and herbal leaves do not require separation > of Teruma and Ma'aser since the tea leaves are removed after > brewing and are not consumed. Indeed, many Poskim rule this way. > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > and Ma'aser should be separated. I can't help but wonder if Rav Sternbuch might hold - because the tea leaves are significant - that tea *is* subject to Bishul Yisroel. If he does not, that might lend weight to my suspicion that "primarily water" is merely code for "liquids" in the Mimetic Tradition, i.e., that liquids simply are not a concern. (In the Textual Tradition, "primarily water" is an exemption from Bishul Yisroel because water is normally eaten raw, which might not apply to tea leaves and coffee beans.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 3 22:47:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 01:47:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > > and Ma'aser should be separated. In that case why isn't tea ha'adamah, just like vegetable soup? The reason given is because there is no substance of the leaves in the tea, unlike soup where the vegetables are left in it and are consumed with it, and thus constitute the ikar. But according to this that shouldn't matter. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 4 05:45:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? A. This is a complex question, as it is touches on a number of principals that emerge from halachic discussions about the brachos for vegetable soup, fruit soup and beer. Important responsa on this topic were composed about 300 years ago by some of the great poskim of the eighteenth century. One of the first recorded teshuvos on this topic is found in Perach Mateh Aharon (siman 40), who ruled that the appropriate beracha is shehakol. Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt?l (1670-1744) disagrees. He writes in Panim Me?iros (2:190) that borei pri ha?adomah would be more appropriate, given that tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages. Indeed, Rav Meir notes that when visiting the city of Worms Germany, he observed the great chasid, Rav Shmuel Shatin, reciting borei pri ha?adomah on a cup of tea. Rav Meir challenged Rav Shmuel that it is customary to recite a shehakol. Rav Shmuel responded that a minhag that was not established by Rabbonim has no validity. Nonetheless, the Panim Me?eiros concludes a long teshuva by saying that while in theory he sides with Rav Shmuel, but in practice, he does not wish to break with common practice and recites shehakol. Subsequent poskim have defended the custom to recite a shehakol on coffee and tea with various explanations, and that is almost universally accepted. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 4 11:46:25 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:46:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 01:45:06PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? ... > Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt"l (1670-1744) ... writes in Panim Me'iros > (2:190) that borei pri ha'adomah would be more appropriate, given that > tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages... I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. A related (I think) case in the SA is that of date butter (OC 202:7). Date butter is "ha'eitz" for Sepharadim, because date butter was a primary use of dates in the Mechaber's day. The Rama holds the safeiq is real enough to justify "shehakol" as the catch-all. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger How wonderful it is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp nobody need wait a single moment Author: Widen Your Tent before starting to improve the world. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anne Frank Hy"d From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 11:39:20 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 19:39:20 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. Joseph (who has been saying sheasani yisrael for many decades) Sent from my iPhone From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 21:13:22 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 05:13:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com>, Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? > > ----------------------------- > I responded: I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. > --------------------------------------------- > RJR replied: My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Me (again): So was mine. Joseph From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Feb 4 19:54:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 03:54:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? ----------------------------- I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. --------------------------------------------- My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Shabbat Shalom Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 4 17:26:49 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 20:26:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> On 4/2/21 2:46 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel > reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for saying shehakol. To the best of my understanding it's simply an amhoratzus that started because people didn't know what it was. Remember that edible chocolate was only invented around 1800, so most poskim never heard of it. But the issue is very different from that of tea and coffee. The poskim did know what those are, and said they are shehakol because the leaves and beans are discarded and not consumed at all. That's why I was surprised to read an opinion that they are subject to bishul akum. That's obviously not the case with chocolate. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 5 08:40:44 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:40:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? A. Shulchan Aruch (OC 182:2; 272:9; 289:2; 296:2) writes that if there is no wine available, one may recite Birchas Hamazon, Kiddush (see last paragraph for further clarification about kiddush) or Havdalah on a beverage that is prevalent in that location. This is known as Chamar Medinah (the local wine). Do tea or coffee qualify? Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yebia Omer 3:19 and Yechaveh Daas 2:38) cites some Acharonim who maintain that a beverage is only considered Chamar Medinah if it is intoxicating. Based on this, Rav Ovadia Yosef rules that one should not recite Havdalah on tea or coffee. Only alcoholic beverages such as beer are acceptable. This was also the opinion of Rav Chaim Volozhener. The Rogotchover suggests that even if it is necessary for chamar medina to be intoxicating, milk can be considered an intoxicating beverage based on the Gemara (Kerisos 13b)that a cohen may not perform the avodah in the Beis Hamikdash after drinking milk. (Presumably, milk is intoxicating in the sense that it causes drowsiness and affects a person?s mental state.) However, Rav Y.D. Soloveichik (Mi?peninei Harav p. 87) rejects the comparison between avodah and chamar medinah. Milk invalidates a cohen for avodah because it causes drowsiness, while chamar medinah is limited to actual intoxication. On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea. One may add milk to their tea or coffee, but it is not necessary. Igeros Moshe explains that these drinks are similar to wine because they are served to guests to demonstrate distinction or respect, and not only to quench one?s thirst. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 279:9) writes that there are different opinions whether chamar medina may be used for Kiddush at night and during the day. The Mishnah Berurah (272:27) rules that Chamar Medinah may be used for Shabbos daytime kiddush, but should not be used for Friday night Kiddush, If wine is not available, Friday night Kiddush should be recited on challah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:29:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:29:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel >> reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. > I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for > saying shehakol... Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. And that when eating chocolate covered raisins or nuts, both are primary. But concludes that you should make the ha'eitz or ha'adamah on something else first and then the shehakol on the chocolate. (IM OC 3:31) That does imply the chocolate alone would be shehakol, no? (I don't know, maybe he discusses the case of chocolate directly. I can only report on what Bar Ilan helped me find.) Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - George Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:30:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:30:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210207003041.GB20855@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 04:40:44PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? > On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea... The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in Litta. Gut Voch! -Micha From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 6 17:45:42 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 20:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> On 6/2/21 7:29 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. > https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei Teshuva's day. He, like his source the Divrei Yosef (R Yosef Ergas, 1685-1730), as well as the Pri Chadash on the question of bishul akum and other acharonim, were all referring to hot chocolate, which was the only kind that existed in their day. Hot chocolate is a closer question than tea or coffee, because the cocoa itself is drunk and not removed. But Divrei Yosef compares it to Shesisa, a drink made with flour, which the gemara says is mezonos if it's thick but shehakol if it's the consistency of a drink, even though the flour is in it and not removed. > Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without > all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. Actually that is not his sevara, but one he quotes from the Minchas Shlomo as a suggestion, but that the Minchas Shlomo himself questions since it's a clear halacha that ground ginger mixed with sugar is ha'adama (it says ha'etz but that must be a typo), since ginger cannot be eaten on its own. Aderaba, that is the greatest argument for it being ha'etz, since that is not just the ikar way to eat the fruit but the only way. Even if the sugar is the majority, it comes only to make the fruit edible, so it's batel to it. His own sevara for shehakol is that the taste of the sugar and other ingredients is the ikar, and not that of the chocolate at all! But it seems to me that anyone who eats chocolate will testify that it's not so. It's not chocolate-flavored sugar, it's sugar-flavored chocolate, even when the chocolate is less than 50%, kol shekein in those bars that boast on the label of being 55% or 70% or 90% cocoa solids. By the way, he quotes Pachad Yitzchak quoting Yad Malachi, a talmid of R Yosef Ergas, who paskens (unlike his rebbe) to say Ha'eitz on hot chocolate! > RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. That's just it. He doesn't consider the question and pasken on it. He just assumes it. Who knows whether when he wrote that he had any idea what chocolate is. That's my contention about why the worlds says shehakol; they just don't know what it is, or else they're relying on their predecessors who didn't know what it was. None of them considered it. They came to America and found it there in the stores, and assumed it was just another kind of candy, and thus subsumed into the question of sugar, which we pasken is shehakol. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Feb 7 10:28:55 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 18:28:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Between Science and Torah Message-ID: What precisely is the relationship between science and Torah? Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L, deals with this issue in his commentary on Shemos 19:20 in Rav Schwab on Chumash. I have posted what he wrote at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/science_torah.pdf YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 7 14:25:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 17:25:16 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 > > Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei > Teshuva's day... We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. As I see it, if cacao is shehakol in the ST's day, the same would be true of a chocolate bar in ours. Both are the usual form of consumption for the respective times. (If anything, the bar is MORE processed than the drink.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The trick is learning to be passionate in one's http://www.aishdas.org/asp ideals, but compassionate to one's peers. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 17:29:15 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but > only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in > Litta. It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of drinking it. In fact, he contrasts this with several other drinks (seltzer, lemonade, or water with honey mixed in) which are merely "mayim metukanim - enhanced water", and he specifically says that what makes "teh matok" different is that (a) it was cooked, and (b) it is not *called* "water". My conclusion is that the AhS doesn't seem to care whether the tea is sweet or not. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 06:39:13 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:39:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/21 5:25 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 >> Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei >> Teshuva's day... > We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the > distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, > liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their > usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. There is a fundamental difference between food and drink, which is the entire basis of those who say shehakol on tea, coffee, or hot chocolate. In the case of tea and coffee there is deemed to be no substance of the leaf/berry in the water. In the case of chocolate the sevara given to say shehakol is the analogy to the gemara's "shesisa". Shesisa, even if it is merely a thick liquid, is mezonos; kol shekein if it's solid. The same should be true of chocolate. How processed it is should be irrelevant, since this is the normal way the fruit is eaten, just like ginger. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 8 13:03:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:03:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 08:29:15PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you > might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude > unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of > drinking it. Well, in OC 89:23 he notes that some prohibit drinking tea with sugar before davening -- but only wwith sugar. He is unsure why they would say that, since the sugar is just to give the hot drink a little flavor. How does that make sweatened tea "akhilah"? Others allow tea drunk through a sugar cube, but not if the sugar is dissolved in the tea. (One of the places where the AhS cites the MB.) There, he does conclude "ve'eino iqar". I am just pointing out that elsewhere in the AhS, tea and tea with sugar are different things. So, I wouldn't just assume he added the word "matoq" here simply because that's the norm. (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. I would want evidence it even was their norm. In siman 89, he gives the din for tea but if the tea is with sugar.... As opposed to if the se'if saw a need to call the first case "tea without sugar" or "unsweatened tea".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 8 05:19:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 13:19:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Proper Method of Torah Research Message-ID: The following is from the fourth footnote to RSRH's Eighteenth Letter in the Nineteen Letters. A word here about the proper method of Torah research. Two revelations are before us: nature and Torah. The same method of investigation must apply to both. In studying nature, all phenomena confront us as given data, and we can only endeavor to find the laws applying to them, and their interrelation, a posteriori-by starting from these phenomena themselves. The proof of the truth of your theory, or rather of the probability of its correctness, can be provided only by nature itself, since you will have to test your theory against nature's phenomena in order to be able to state with the highest possible degree of certainty that the facts indeed confirm your assumptions, i.e., that every phenomenon observed can be explained according to your theory. In nature, one single contradicting fact can invalidate your theory, and you must, therefore, make sure to obtain as much information as possible about the phenomena that you are studying, so that, as far as possible, you will have all the facts at your disposal. Moreover, even where we are not able to ascertain the laws and interrelations governing any given phenomenon, the phenomenon itself remains a fact. All this applies equally to the study of Torah. Just as heaven and earth are facts, so, to us, are the Torah21 and its commandments. In the Torah, just as in nature, the ultimate cause is God. In the Torah, just as in nature, no fact can be denied, even though we may comprehend neither its cause nor its relation to others; instead, we must persevere, in the Torah as in nature, to trace God's wisdom which manifests itself in them. In studying the Torah, then, we must begin by accepting the Torah's commandments in their entirety as given facts; we must study them and their relationship to each other and to the aspects of life that they govern. Then we must test the soundness of our theories by their conformity with the provisions of the Law; and, here too, the highest possible degree of certainty is obtained if everything fits our theory. Moreover, just as the phenomena of nature remain facts even though we may not have found their causes or interrelationships, and just as their existence does not depend on the results of our investigation-rather, the reverse is true-so, too, the commandments of the Torah are law even if we have not uncovered the cause and interrelationships of even a single one, and our fulfillment of the commandments in no way depends on the results of our investigation. Only the commandments belonging to the category of Edos, which seek to convey insights and to affect the emotions, remain incomplete without adequate investigation. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 13:56:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:56:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> References: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 8/2/21 4:03 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in > Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. Sugar was quite expensive there, while across the border in Galicia it was cheap. That's why Litvaks make their gefilte fish and luction kugel salty and Galicianers make them sweet. The Baal Hatanya, who lived on his pay as the town maggid, first in Liozna and then in Liadi, once asked the town council for a raise, because after much thought he had come to the conclusion that sugar is a necessity and not a luxury (hechrochios and not mosros). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 9 07:30:04 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 15:30:04 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Honoring Parents Message-ID: Please see the article at https://vosizneias.com/2021/02/09/honoring-parents-and-a-new-interpretation-from-rav-elyashiv-ztl/ [https://vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rabbi-Yosef-Shalom-Elyashiv-1024x640-1.jpg] Honoring Parents, and a New Interpretation from Rav Elyashiv Zt"l - Vos Iz Neias by Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com Last week, parshas Yisro, we leined the aseres hadibros. In them, of course, is the Mitzvah of Kivud Av v?Aim ? honoring one?s parents. The Torah itself assures us that one who is careful with it will merit long life ? something very apropos during this pandemic. The Talmud [?] vosizneias.com >From this article Speech ? Children must speak softly to their parents, in a calm tone, and using the most honorable terminology and modes of address. (See Kiddushin 30a,b). On the other hand, if one speaks abusively to one?s parents he or she will earn a place in Gehenam, rachmana litzlan. Action ? The Mishna Brurah (301:4) indicates that, if possible, it is a Mitzvah to greet one?s parents every day. There are also numerous actions that are obvious that must be done regularly, for example, taking out the garbage for them regularly ? without being asked; offering them drinks or food; requesting if there is anything they need in terms of shopping, mail, etc. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:48:15 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minhagim change over time Message-ID: Understanding how certain minhagim change over time: Imho this is a process which plays out historically without a clear algorithm. Only through the eyes of retrospection (e.g. the aruch hashulchan) is the result koshered (see hilchot aveilut as an example) Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:46:39 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:46:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience Message-ID: On belief based on personal experience: A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) Me-How do we take this into account in our emunah process? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:54:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:54:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Personal thoughts on Avodah Message-ID: * Ari Wasserman,Rabbi Moshe Hauer,Rabbi Moshe Mordechai Lowy,Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz,Reb Dovid Lichtenstein,Mr. Charlie Harary-1/2/21 - Show 304 - What halachically is a good (or bad) use of our time? Someone I know often says, "Time is our most precious and perishable asset." OTOH I'm not sure I can agree with Mick Jagger that, "Time is on my side, yes it is". You can listen here to the various presentations or you can send me $4.95 (plus shipping and handling) for Joel's magic elixir algorithm which will cure all your ills and give you the proper balance of learning, sleeping, relaxing, eating, etc. For an extra $1.05 you'll also get the proper breakdown of learning time by subject including Tehillim and gedolim bios! Seriously IMHO this our biggest avodah, figuring out how HKB"H wants us to spend our time, especially the marginal free minute. IMHO you need to think about this throughout life and to talk about it from time to time with others to ensure you take into account your blind spots (true of life in general). For me, having a working basic knowledge of behavioral economics, social science, quantum physics, scientific method, legal theory, etc. will improve one's talmud torah and avodat hashem. Just be sure you're not trying to see everything as a nail because you have a hammer! These are my thoughts on our avodah in dynamic time allocation today. What are yours? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ereich at zen.co.uk Thu Feb 11 02:37:15 2021 From: ereich at zen.co.uk (L Reich) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 10:37:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: <8dab4744-a501-4547-d3af-aad949ae4e5c@zen.co.uk> to Avodah forum: Can anyone reconcile the seeming halachic contradiction regarding figs, whether fresh or dry (the latter being known as /Grogrois/ in the Talmud. All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement of examination before consumption. Yet.... Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of /Grogrois/, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the cake? Furthermore in dealing with the hazard of /Gilui/ - liquids and soft foods left uncovered and possibly injected with snake venom - The Talmud Yurshalmi states that one may eat (soft) figs in the dark and not worry about venom. What about insects ? Elozor Reich -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 13:00:12 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:00:12 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? Message-ID: From https://www.kosher.com/lifestyle/this-year-purim-falls-on-friday-what-time-should-i-begin-my-purim-seuda-1436 [https://www.kosher.com/resized/open_graph/h/a/hamentashen_purim_concept_banner.jpg] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? | Lifestyle | Kosher.com Written by Rabbis Eli Gersten, Yaakov Luban, and Moshe Zywica of the Orthodox Union . The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat.. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat ... www.kosher.com The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat?chila postpone the seuda up until three hours before Shabbat. Bedieved (after the fact), if one is unable to begin the seuda until later, one must still eat the seuda up until Shabbat. If one is still in the middle of the Purim seuda at shkia (sunset), when Shabbat begins, one must cover the food, recite Kiddush, and then continue the meal. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if this were to happen, one would recite Retzei in bentching, but not al hanissim. One cannot recite both retzei and al hanissim, since this would be a contradiction. Since we are required to recite retzei, this indicates that it is Shabbat and Purim is over. Therefore, one can no longer recite al hanissim. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 06:16:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:16:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Special Seudah When Rosh Chodesh is on Shabbos Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This Shabbos will also be Rosh Chodesh. We will be eating three seudos in honor of Shabbos. Is there anything additional that should be served in honor of Rosh Chodesh? A. There are two versions of the Talmud. The Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) was redacted in the sixth century. The Talmud Yerushalmi was composed in an earlier period in Israel. The Tur (OC 419) quotes the Talmud Yerushalmi (Megilah 1:4) that when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, the Rosh Chodesh seuda is postponed until Sunday. (It is not feasible to eat the Rosh Chodesh meal on Shabbos since three meals already take place in honor of Shabbos.) It is apparent from the Yerushalmi that a seuda is required on Rosh Chodesh. In light of the above, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 419:2) is surprised that we do not observe this custom of eating a Rosh Chodesh seudah. He speculates that since this meal is not mentioned in the Talmud Bavli, it was assumed that the Bavli disagrees with the Yerushalmi. When there is a conflict between the Bavli and Yerushalmi, we follow the Bavli, and therefore the Rosh Chodesh seuda was not observed. The Aruch Hashulchan concludes that in deference to the Yerushalmi, an extra dish should be served at the meal on Rosh Chodesh. Similarly, when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, an extra dish should be added to the Shabbos meal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 11 15:38:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:38:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210211233848.GA14859@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 03:46:39AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> On belief based on personal experience: I checked on TorahMusings, and RJR forgot to say there as well just who he is quoting, but someone wrote: >> A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and >> analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations >> similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space >> (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they >> actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how >> many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) And RJR asked: > How do we take this into account in our emunah process? I think that's leaving the personal experience route, trying to use the idea of personal experience as a data point to build a philosophical argument. Kind of like the difference between the Kuzari cheileq 1's appeal to tradition, and "The Kuzari Principle" trying to make a philosophical argument out of the impossibility of forging this kind of tradition. The question is whether you want to philosophically get knowledge about the Borei, or you want to get to better know Him. The Rambam, because he believes that a personal relationship of that sort is impossible, focuses on theological knowledge about G-d. On the opposite extreme, R Nachman eschewed studying about G-d because all that intellectualizing gets in the way of knowng Him. The resolution I pursue in my own life assumes neither of these ends of the spectrum. Ever do something you know was the wrong choice? That's because there is a gap between what we think and what we feel. (R' Elya Lopian -- all of mussar is about moving something just an ammah. Moving an idea from the head to the heart.) It is therefore not necessarily true that a pursuit of philosophical knowledge about Hashem in all His Transcendence has to get in the way of finding a relationship with Him. This is a case where compartmentalization is a good thing. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 19:18:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 22:18:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: . R' Elozor Reich asked: > All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects > found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement > of examination before consumption. > > Yet.... > > Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of > Grogrois, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed > examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did > the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the > cake? My presumption is that the ancients knew what to look for, and so they had a simpler task of discerning a problematic fig from a problem-free fig. It is "exhausting" for us because we are less familiar with what we are doing, so we go to extremes to ensure that we've resolved all doubts. It is comparable to making matzah. Back in the day, they knew what they were doing, so they could make a loaf up to a tefach thick, and still be confident that it was chometz-free. They knew how to keep kneading the dough, so that even with the passage of hours, it would still not become chometz. They could even mix flour into a pot of boiling water, and it would cook so fast that it couldn't become chometz. But we have forgotten the details, and we're woefully out of practice. So most of us go crazy making the matza as thin as we can, and bake it as fast as we can. And just to be extra-sure, many go for the well-done matzos, disdaining the merely baked ones. So too with the figs, I suspect. If you know what you're doing, you can take a glance and know whether it has any bugs or not. But if you've lost the mimetics of how to do that, a surgical inspection is the only way to know for sure. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 18:38:50 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:38:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . No, I don't really doubt that Rosh Chodesh *does* have kedusha, if for no other reason than the Beis Din's announcement of "Medudash!" My actual question concerns how we express that kedusha, and in particular, how we talk about its kedusha in our tefilos. In the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh, the middle bracha - often nicknamed "Kedushas Hayom" - closes with the words, "Baruch Atah Hashem, mekadesh Yisrael v'Rashei Chadashim. - Blessed are You, Hashem, Who sanctifies Israel and New Moons." This conclusion certainly attests to the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh, but it seems strange to me that the body of the bracha doesn't. The main text of this bracha, beginning with the words "Rashei Chadashim l'amcha natata," says many nice things about Rosh Chodesh: It's a time for kapara, we would bring korbanos. We ask Hashem that we should be able to bring these korbanos again, and we ask Him for all sorts of brachos in this new month. And we finally state the basis for these requests: "For You chose your people Israel from all the nations, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Not a single word about the kedusha of the day (until after we cross over from the body of the bracha into the chasima). The root k-d-sh never even appears, except in the phrase "Beis Hamikdash". What's going on here? I clearly recall learning, once upon a time, halachos about the structure of a bracha, and how the conclusion should summarize the main point of what the bracha is about. But that doesn't happen here. The body of the bracha talks about the Newness of the new month, and the conclusion talks about its Holiness. When Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, this omission is even sharper: "You made your Holy Shabbos known to them, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Shabbos is explicitly holy, but Rosh Chodesh just has laws? For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant that I won't bother to list them. Amida and Musaf on the Shalosh Regalim have at least two mentions of the day's kedusha: The paragraph of "Vatiten Lanu" has the phrase "Yom Tov [Ploni] Mikra Kodesh", then just before the chasima we have the phrase "Moadei Kodshecha". On Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, "Mikra Kodesh" seems to be the only explicit reference, but that's still a lot more than Rosh Chodesh's zero. I readily concede that the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh is less than that of the other holidays, possibly even less than that of Chol Hamoed. And perhaps that's the message that Chazal were sending us when they formulated this bracha. Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Sun Feb 14 02:23:31 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:23:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 04:00, Akiva Miller wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other > holidays. > Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant > that I won't bother to list them. On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it that are different. ADE From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 06:15:34 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:15:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . I wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on > other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, ... R' Allan Engel commented> > On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the > same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it > that are different. I am not familiar with this idea. Are you suggesting that these "piyutim" were inserted long after the Anshei Knesses Hagedola, similar to the pituyim that are reserved for Chazaras Hashatz on special occasions? Thet would be news to me, most especially in the case of Musaf, where mentioning the korbanos is mandated by halacha. Even if these paragraphs are recent additions, my point was that all four of them specifically mention the kedusha of Shabbos: Maariv: "Atah kidashta es yom hashevii", "V'kidashto mikol hazmanim" Shacharis and Musaf: "Am m'kadshei shevii", "uvashevii ratzisa bo v'kidashto" Mincha: "Yom menucha uk'dusha" Additional data point: My question isn't about the Amidah specifically, but about the structure of a Bracha Arucha in general. So I took a look at the last bracha after reading the haftara. On both Shabbos and Yom Tov, this bracha concludes with the same words as we say in Kiddush and in the middle bracha of the Amida, attesting to the Kedushas Hayom. But what of the body of the bracha? On Shabbos, we say "v'al yom haShabbos hazeh, shenasata lanu Hashem Elokeinu likdusha", so that matches up. But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 15 13:45:23 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:45:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim Message-ID: Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA OU's Guidelines for Purim The approaching Adar and Purim represent the sobering milestone of a year since the arrival of the pandemic on these shores. This year has brought devastating loss of life, immense financial struggle, and significant personal and social upheaval. At the same time, we are approaching a time of year that should be filled with simcha. How do we balance these emotions and experiences? See the attached guidelines, written in concert with our poskim and medical professionals. Read Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 16 09:25:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:25:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210216172556.GA18273@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 04:45:23PM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA > OU's Guidelines for Purim See also the Agudah's guidelines https://agudah.org/purim-5781-a-time-for-mindfulness-and-care And the guidelines sent around Lakewood in the name of BMG's rashei yeshiva: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1948510 (which I think is the most conservative of those I've seen) Over in my backyard, R Ron Yitzchak Eisenman sent out guidelines for Ahavas Israel of Passaic, but since RRYE is a known columnist, I thought people might be curious what he told his shul. See below, although except for capitalizing what was originally in BOLD, formatting was removed. Tir'u baTov! -Micha --------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 12:06 PM Subject: Purim 5781 Purim 5781 """""""""" Under no circumstances may anyone ever enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose The New PIP """"""""""" You all remember PIP? Purim in Pashut. This year there is a new PIP. Purim in Pandemic. How do we celebrate the joyous day of Purim during the Pandemic? The answer is, of course, by adhering to the Covid guidelines strictly and uncompromisingly. I recall very well last Purim. No one was masking as back then; in fact, we were told not to mask. No one social distanced as we never heard of the term. Purim was celebrated together with close contact, sharing of food and drink, and unbeknownst to us at the time; we were also transmitting a deadly pathogen that would wreak havoc on the world, AND PARTICULARLY HARD HIT WERE ORTHODOX JEWS. This year Baruch Hashem, we know to be careful. THEREFORE, IN THE SPIRIT OF EVEN A SAFEK PIKUACH NEFESH (SLIGHT CHANCE OF A LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION), I PRESENT MY GUIDELINES FOR PURIM 5781. 1. Parshas Zachor -- As I have mentioned in the past, the Shul follows the Psak of the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim Kanievsky that women are NOT obligated to hear Parshas Zachor. 2. Therefore, please observe the socially distant setup of the women's section. Preferably, unless you are a regular Shul goer, better not to come. If you do go and see there are no seats, DO NOT enter the women's section. You are putting people in danger, and you are doing a "Mitzvah through an Aveira." 3. The above rule of not crowding the sections applies to the Men's section as well. 4. Under no circumstances may anyone enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. 5. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose PURIM Night """"""""""" 1. One may eat before hearing the Megillah 2. Therefore, women or men who will hear the Megillah later should eat after 6:18 PM on Thursday 3. If you cannot get out to hear the Megillah, and no one can come to you to read it. You may listen to a live Zoom broadcast of the Megillah and read along with the Baal Koreh in your printed Megillah. Purim Day """"""""" a. Mishloach Manos -- Minimal Mishloach Manos this year. You only need to give two food items to one person to fulfill the Mitzvah. b. When delivering the (hopefully one) Mishloach Manos, make sure to wear a mask c. It is highly recommended not to go driving around town delivering food. This can G-d forbid lead to a "super-spreader" infecting many people. d. Stay home in your family bubble. e. The Mitzvah this year is "less (contact) is more (health)!" f. Matanos L'Evyonim can be given to me either (cash or check) in Shul beginning today. g. If you want to drop off Matanos L'Evyonim at my home (that is allowed and recommended), please come masked h. I respectfully ask that no one feel they need to visit me and certainly do not feel the need to bring me Mishloach Manos. i. The Purim Seuda should consist of people only in your immediate bubble. j. Preferably it should take place in the morning as Shabbos is coming! k. Use the extra time to learn Torah, say Tehillim, and spend quality with your children or yourself. Wishing all a joyous Purim Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Rabbi, Congregation Ahavas Israel Passaic, NJ From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 16 09:58:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:58:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Learning for the sake of learning, just to occupy one's mind with the intricacies of the Torah, even if the practical application of the law is already known, is limited to men. A woman who learns Torah does not become greater in yiras Shamayim because of it. True, she may become very learned in Torah, but this is not the object of talmud Torah. A woman may become a great philosopher or scientist, but Torah is not philosophy or science. Torah is the way Hakadosh Baruch Hu communicates with us. Only because talmud Torah is a mitzvah, a positive commandment for man, can it be a means to connect to Hashem and thereby increase his yiras Shamayim. Because a woman has no specific mitzvah of talmud Torah, she cannot utilize it as a means to increase her many ways of connection to Hashem. If a man is a great talmud chacham, having learned the entire Talmud, and has not become a greater yerei Shamayim this learning has not achieved its purpose. If a woman were to learn and know Gemara just as well as a man, it still would not make her one iota better than she is. It would have no influence on her relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu. she'asani kirtzono - He has made me according to his will, means that a woman does not need talmud Torah to come close to Hakadosh Baruch Hu. A woman can even have prophecy-the closest possible relationship to Hakadosh Baruch Hu-without learning Torah. [Email #2. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274-275. Women are also obligated to say Biros Ha Torah. While patur (exempt) from talmud Torah purely for the sake of learning, women are, nevertheless, obligated to learn the halachos of the mitzvos so they can properly fulfil them. With the exception of the few time-bound mitzvos, women have the same obligation as men to know and keep the vast majority of the mitzvos of the Torah. It is therefore incumbent upon women to learn the details of these mitzvos in order to observe them properly. How can women keep Shabbos or Yom Tov properly without knowing the applicable halachos? How can a woman conduct a business if she is not familiar with the dinim (laws) of ribbis (interest), ona'ah (misrepresentation or price fraud), or gezel (outright theft)? The difference is only in the goal of the learning. For a man, in addition to the need to know the practical halachos in order to apply them, it is also a mitzvah to occupy himself with talmud Torah as a form of avodas Hashem, serving Hashem. This is so even if there is no immediate need for this knowledge in practice, either because he already knows the dinim, or because his immediate circumstances do not require the application of what he is learning. However, for a woman, the purpose of the learning is to gain the knowledge in order to put it into practice. From zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com Tue Feb 16 11:16:54 2021 From: zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com (Zalman Alpert) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] On Feb 16, 2021 12:58 PM, "Prof. L. Levine" wrote: > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Have to admit this is strange but reflects a weird attitude towards females May I add that the views of R Schwab are not necessarily in line with Rav Breuer or Rav SR Hirsch or that they represent daas Torah just at this point a daas Yachid it warrants further investigation By the way Rav Schwab personally from the pulpit thanked and praised the late Isha gedolah Dr Gertrude Hirschler for her abridged trans of the Hirsch chumash That was not practical halacha but Torah lishma Torah hashkofa is complex and single modules or power points do not reflect the reality on the ground This is true as all rabbis are humans and MAY and do change positions,the Rav was a powerful Agudist until 1946 and then joined Mizrachi so I can guote what he said in 1938 and that would NOT reflect his position later Rabbi Schwab himself reversed himself in Tide several times ... [Email #2. -micha] > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274 - 275. Besides hilchos Shabbos none of the halachoth mentioned was taught at the Breuer's girls high school,some time was spent on secondary subjects that could gave been used Rav Schwab was the Board of Ed dean of all KAJ schools I suspect hilchos Shabbes are taught in most Bath Jacobs in metro NY And in the KAJ school no text was used no kittzur not even Rabbi Posen's Amira leBays Yaakov which was designated as a supplementary text but not formally studied As the chazal say esmahmeha ? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 16 22:39:57 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 06:39:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts Message-ID: For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 04:13:42 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 07:13:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was learning this week. I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even today. Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? Akiva Miller (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra guessing. Happy Adar!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 18 05:04:17 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? Message-ID: There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different depending on where you live and the day of the year. For a detailed discussion of this issue see https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ YL Depression Angles ? The Seforim Blog Depression Angles By William Gewirtz. Introduction: Depression angles measure the level of darkness or illumination prior to sunrise and, in a parallel fashion, after sunset. seforimblog.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 11:53:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218195341.GB18578@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 01:04:17PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different > depending on where you live and the day of the year. > > For a detailed discussion of this issue see > https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ Only end. The day begins at sheqi'ah. 0 minutes after sunset equals the sun declining 0 degrees below the horizon. No difference in when the day starts between computing a fixed interval or degrees below horizon. In any case, computing tzeis isn't siginificantly more complex. It's as easy to compute sunset (0 deg below the horizon) and add 36 minutes as it is to compute when the sun is 7.12 deg below the horizon. See the page I wrote at http://aishdas.org/luach Or the widely used http://mysmanim.com Both use declination. But I like my formatting. One page per month in normal 7x4 or 7x5 calendar format. At the cost of not having every zeman published for every day, and having to split the difference between the zeman as it was two days before today and two day after. (I even threw in the Molad on days that have one. One known bug -- doesn't know which cities light 40 min before sheqi'ah.) Suggestions invited. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 14:36:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:36:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218223619.GA9395@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 07:13:42AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic... Shorashim, likely not. So I can't help you with cases like "techum". But it shouldn't take that much diqduq knowledge to recognize which way the word is conjugated, so, more hope for verbs. Then the easy things, like .... I say "like", but I only can think of this example: No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. A final alef "-a" for zakhar nouns ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. Eg: Malkah with a hei is Lh"Q for queen. Malka with an alef - Aramit for king. For that matter, once we get to rabbinic Hebrew, the shorashim they both got from before the split between the languages is compounded by Leshon Chazal's heavy borrowing of shorashim from Aramit. The question of which language a shoresh belongs to itself becomes blurry. More like asking "when did this enter Hebrew". Like "techum", which is used in Mishnayos, in Hebrew. So, it's a Hebrew word, but a later addition, borrowed from Aramaic. (Then there is always sefaria. When you search for the word, which books dominate the search results? If the answer is Targumim, the Talmuds, Zohar, etc... you know it's Aramaic. Of course, so much of gemara (TY & TB) is in Hebrew, finding a word in gemara alone wouldn't make the point.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was > learning this week. > > I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra > v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* > was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good > example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase > "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, > and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to > conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it > was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. > > I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the > loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the > word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), > which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a > form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A > "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). > [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find > this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is > actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. > > On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must > be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any > Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any > Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has > many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, > the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what > Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa > cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute > "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak > claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same > pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that > Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in > about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. > > My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is > Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few > places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that > whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days > of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, > and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even > today. > > Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even > earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? > > Akiva Miller > > (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, > here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. > I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's > not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. > Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want > another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra > guessing. Happy Adar!) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 02:36:31 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:36:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. > A final alef "-a" for zakhar nound ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. When I was in yeshiva, I had a friend who had more than a few seforim published with Hebrew fonts, but not Hebrew language. I ended up developing a set of rules by which I could determine a book's language at just a glance: Lots of words ending with Heh - Hebrew Lots of words ending with Aleph - Aramaic Lots of words starting with Aleph - Arabic Lots of words with aleph or ayin or double-yud in the middle - Yiddish I had a rule for Ladino too, but I've forgotten it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 19 06:26:43 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:26:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi (Megillas Esther 9:16-17) explains that the Purim story took place because Haman maligned the Jews, saying that they engage in personal feuds and do not get along with one another. This is alluded to in the verse ?yeshno am echad mefuzar umeforad bein ha?amim?, there is one nation which is dispersed and scattered among the nations, i.e., lacking unity. To demonstrate the falsehood of this libelous charge, Mordechai and Esther instituted that Mishloach Manos should be given to one?s friends and acquaintances, to foster camaraderie and good will among the Jews. This demonstrates that we do not engage in personal feuds; on the contrary, we engage in acts of friendship, by gifting our food to others. Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving one?s acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Feb 19 11:33:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:33:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi... >> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor >> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal >> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). I am not understanding the ThD's explanation. After all, there is already a mitzvah in that niche. So: 1- On the first layer of the explanation, why then enact both mishloach manos and matanos le'evyonim? And 2- If we give MM to the wealthy so as not to embarass the poor, why not JUST mishloach manos, rather than matanos le'evyonim embarassing them? :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 20 19:08:07 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 22:08:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> References: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <0568e6c2-010b-31a1-fd3b-7e820b8d7560@sero.name> On 19/2/21 2:33 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: >> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >>> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >>> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >>> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Ad kan Terumas Hadeshen. The rest is the Chasam Sofer's suggestion, or rather the OU writer's understanding of the same, which I believe to be flawed. First of all, though, the Terumas Hadeshen does not mention "poor people". He says the purpose of mishloach manos is so that everyone will have enough food for the seudah, and therefore it must consist of food. Money or clothing will not do, since one can't serve those at the seudah, whereas matanos la'evyonim can be food *or* money, or anything else that helps. It should be readily understood that a person need not be poor in order to find himself not quite up to making as big a seudah as he would like. It may be that he is neither rich nor poor, he's keeping up with his bills, but he can't afford to make the kind of purim seuda he would like to make, and a care package would be welcome. It may also be that someone has plenty of money but for some reason he didn't buy enough when he went shopping, or he just isn't that good a cook, and would appreciate an outside contribution to the meal. >>> Although most people are not poor >>> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, This part is not in the ThD or the ChS, and is the OU writer's own interjection. >>> Chazal >>> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >>> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). This is the ChS, except that he doesn't say "wealthy", he says one who has plenty of food. It could even be a poor person who happens to be well provided for the purim seudah, even if he'll be eating the leftovers all week. Technically, according to the ThD's explanation of the reason for the mitzvah there's no reason to send to this person -- one could send him matanos la'evyonim, but not mishloach manos! -- , but nevertheless the ChS suggests that Chazal said to send him anyway so as not to embarrass those who are not so well supplied. The ChS's point, however, is not to whom one should send, but whether the recipient can decline, and if he does whether the giver is yotzei. So he says that according to the ThD's explanation it's obvious that if the person actually could use the extra food then his mechilah is of no effect; lepo'el his seudah is now short of what it could be, so the purpose of the mitzvah was not fulfilled. But he says even one who is well supplied should not decline, so as not to embarrass those who don't decline. I think this answers both of your questions. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 03:47:20 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 06:47:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur Message-ID: In the "credit where credit is due" department, this post results from an article in the recent issue (Dec 2020) of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. It contains an article titled "The Halachos of Davening at Home" by "Rabbi Avraham Yeshaya Cohen, Translated by Rabbi Nosson Kaiser". On page 74-75, he writes: >>> It is forbidden for a tzibbur to recite ha'aderes v'ha'emunah except on Yom Kippur, but an individual may say it anytime. [Mishnah Berurah 565:12. Nusach Sefarad says it every Shabbos and Yom Tov during pesukei d'zimra. Perhaps that is considered an individual's tefillah, as there is no requirement for a tzibbur at that point. In fact, Siddur Tezelosa D'avraham p. 159 writes that it should be said quietly, and the chazzan should not end it aloud. See also Aruch Hashulchan 281:4 and Sheivet Levi 10:86.] Mishnah Berurah 565:12 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur, though an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. [Pri Megadim in Eishel Avraham] The Dirshu Mishneh Berurah 565:16 gives some arguments (pro and con) about saying it in Pesukei D'Zimra, and also raises the issue of singing it during Hakafos on Simchas Torah. Magen Avraham 565:5 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur. (R"m Mahari"l) Pri Megadim 565:5 says: >>> See the Magen Avraham about b'tzibbur, but an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. See Darchei Moshe. Darchei Moshe 565:4 says: >>> The Mahari'v wrote that the tefillah Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah can be said by an individual any day of the year, but a tzibbur is forbidden to say it except on Yom Kippur. My question about all this does not concern the exceptions that are made for Pesukei D'Zimra or for Simchas Torah. Rather, I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. Are there any other examples of this? Can anyone explain why it would be wrong for a tzibur to choose to say it on a day other than Yom Kippur? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 20:33:22 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 23:33:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" (beis-vav-tzadi). "Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in Divrei Hayamim. I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all of these as coming from Aramaic: techum (Onkelos' translation of gevul in Bereshis 10:19 and Devarim 27:17) butz (Onkelos' translation of shesh in Bereshis 41:42 and Shemos 28:39) yakar (Onkelos' translation of kavod in Shemos 28:2 and Devarim 5:21) siruv (Onkelos' translation of ma'en in Shemos 7:27 and Bamidbar 20:21) On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. One more note: This dictionary is available on line, as a searchable and downloadable pdf file, at https://archive.org/stream/AComprehensiveEtymologicalDictionaryOfTheHebrewLanguageErnestKlein1987OCR but its copyright is murky to me. There's an "Info" button near the top right of that page, and if you click it and the "More information" button afterwards, it claims that the dictionary is in the public domain. But page 2 of the dictionary itself says "Copyright 1987 by ...", so I don't know which claim is more correct. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 21 07:37:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 10:37:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210221153722.GA10838@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 11:33:22PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated > as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as > "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form > of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is > indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I > suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. I was under the impression that shif'il is an Aramaic binyan that is borrowed by Hebrew. So, it is used for Hebrew shorashim, but the resulting word is only Hebrew after influence from Aramaic. But AFAIK, shif'il and the passive shuf'al (meshubadim hayinu leFar'oh) don't appear in Tanakh. So, one could accurately says shi'bud is Hebrew, but Rabbinic Hebrew has Aramaic influences... So, the answer isn't all that black-and-white. Why not re-ask on our sister list mesorah at aishdas.org ? It's full of people interested in nusach, as well as getting leining and tefillah "just right". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sun Feb 21 10:19:26 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:19:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/2/21 11:33 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was > Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and > many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, > and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" > (beis-vav-tzadi).?"Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word > (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash > days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in > Divrei Hayamim. Note that in Esther 1:6, in the same pasuk where "bootz" is used to mean what the Chumash calls "shesh", "shesh" is used to mean "shayish", marble. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From simon.montagu at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 00:36:11 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:36:11 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 5:27 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason > I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive > Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by > Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen > it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all > of these as coming from Aramaic: > Klein's dictionary is also available on Sefaria with a search interface: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Klein_Dictionary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 06:32:07 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:32:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Please see my question at the end. Q. I ordered a food package on Amazon two days before Purim with guaranteed delivery to my friend on Purim day. Do I fulfill the mitzvah of Mishloach Manos with such an arrangement? A. This is a matter of dispute among the poskim. Some hold that by doing so he does fulfill his obligation of Mishloach Manos (Be?er Heitev to OC 695:7, citing Yad Aharon; Da?as Torah in the name of Mahari Assad, and Rav Elyashiv, cited in Yevakshu Mipihu, Purim 1:31). However Aruch HaShulchan (695:17) held that one does not fulfill Mishloach Manos with this arrangement. The Ben Ish Chai (Teshuvos Torah Lishmah 188) explains the reasoning behind this dispute as follows: In the previous Halacha Yomis we learned that there is a dispute as to why Mishloach Manos are given. Is it to engender good will and camaraderie between people (Manos Halevi), or is it to ensure that poor people have sufficient food for their Purim Seudah (Terumas HaDeshen)? If Mishloach Manos are to foster good will ? one must send the food on Purim itself because sending the food is part of the mitzvah. Those who hold that one is yotzei, take the position that the purpose of Mishloach Manos is for the recipient to have sufficient food for the seudah. Hence, as long as the food is received on Purim ? even if it was sent prior to Purim ? the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah. _____________________________________________________________ According to the opinion that "the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah" is the purpose of sending Mishaloach Manos, then it seems to me that sending candy and cake does not fulfill the mitzvah. While some kids may make feel that candy and cakes are fine for a meal, most adults do not, and hence it seems to me that one who sends candy and sweets does not fulfill his/her obligation to send Mishaloach Manos. For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 12:57:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 15:57:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 02:32:07PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and > croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! One can argue from the Rambam's Hikkhos Tzedaqah that the same applies to michloach manos, and it's better to give smaller m"m to more people. Or maybe not. The question of how to safely do mishloach manos this year is a touchy one, and depends on local conditions. I heard one LOR recommend giving just one person whom you've already had similar contact with, and save all the great "themed shalachmanos" ideas for next year. Last year, the week before Pesach was a vary sad one in our community. (I still cry when I think of R Matis Blum's [Torah Loda'as] mother, someone who fed me many a Shabbos Qiddush snack when I was a boy, who was still sitting shiv'ah for R Matis when she started shiv'ah for her husband.) But last Purim, we weren't aware of the notion of a "superspreader event". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone http://www.aishdas.org/asp or something in your life actually attracts more Author: Widen Your Tent of the things that you appreciate and value into - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF your life. - Christiane Northrup, M.D. From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 12:08:10 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:08:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Message-ID: The following is from the Sefer The Vilna Gaon on Megillas Esther by Rabbi Asher Baruch Wegbreit. This Sefer contains many interesting insights into the Megillah. Pasuk !:4 says "when he showed the riches of his glorious kingdom, and the splendor of his excellent majesty, many days, one hundred and eighty days." Question: Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Answer: The answer lies in understanding the real purpose of the feast. Vashti's grandfather Nevuchadnezzar had hidden 1,080 treasure houses near the Euphrates River, but Hashem revealed them to Koresh, the king who preceded Achashverosh, because Hashem had designated Koresh to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. Achashverosh inherited these treasures from him. Achashverosh decided to display his vast wealth to the officers and noblemen of all the provinces of his empire in order to awe them into submission and thereby solidify his kingship, and he used the feast as a context for the presentation. The feast was thus a pretense to allow what would have otherwise been ostentatious display of his wealth. The pasuk describes this in passive form "in his showing of his treasures," to hint that this display, which was actually the purpose of the feast, was conducted in a casual manner, as if it were merely a secondary goal. Achashverosh showcased his 1,080 treasure houses at a rate of six per day- as alluded to in the six words in the pasuk describing his wealth and power ("riches," glorious," "kingdom," "honor," "sp1endorous, " and "greatness")-on each of the 180 days of the feast (180 x 6 = 1,080). At the feast, Achashverosh also donned the Kohen Gadol's garments, to convey his personal greatness and royal dominion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 22 14:55:41 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:55:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:57 PM 2/22/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say >I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is >likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave >one maneh! So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. I think not! The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different brochos, even if combined. YL From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 20:37:09 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:37:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the > AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. > > Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your > practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for > one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons > into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is considered as two??" He makes no mention of the size of these pieces; if I give a nice-size portion of meat, and then a second portion just like it, it doesn't count, because it needs to be TWO TYPES of food. The AhS quotes the Rambam as writing, "two portions of meat, or two types of food, or two types of tavshil." [Note the change in language: Rambam used the word "manos" for the meat, but "minim" for food and tavshil.] AhS concludes that "His writing 'two types' forces you to say that when he wrote 'two portions of meat' he meant 'of two types'. Or. maybe it was a printer's error and it should have said 'two types of meat' just like 'two types of food'." In your scenario, where I gave someone a bowl of salad, and a second bowl of croutons, this is surely two separate foods, and I am yotzay. If the recipient chooses to mix them together, that is his doing, but I'm already yotzay. An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, *different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 23 05:48:26 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:48:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22e901d709ea$91763780$b462a680$@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:37:09PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very > clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." > Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But > two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is > considered as two??" ... In se'if 13 he says "uba'inan shetei manos... veyotz'in be'echad". Which being darshened from the word "rei'eka" would seem to mean 1 person (getting the 2 manos) except he doesn't get to the number And se'if 15 talks about the size of a maneh, "ke'ein chatikhah hara'ui lehiskhabeid". All that aside, yes, the AhS comes down on one side. In this case, he is defending common practice against the SA se'if 4. For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying otherwise. Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:56pm -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made > a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. No, I am saying it could well be that that's the halakhah, so CYLOR. What you consider obvious doesn't seem so when you look at the sources. > I think not! > The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different > brochos, even if combined. According to the SA, the halakhah speaks of two servings. The fundamental halakhah doesn't care about "two berakhos", and according to the SA, not even whether it's two kinds of food. Giving two hamburgers may not be our minhag, but it is clear that both the SA and the Rama would say you are yotzei. (OC 695:4) The Arukh haShulchan (se'if 15) talks about the manos being generous, so you can't be yotzei giving just two kezeisim. So yes, if you give a hamburger and a bun, you could very well not be yotzei. That's exactly the logic. You say "I think not!" but why not? Do you have a maqor? That's why I would get an expert opinion before doing the same. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 14:49:44 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:49:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222224944.GB2099@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:15:34AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the > haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh > Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha > to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is > sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm > putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. The last phrase of any berakhah (that isn't just a one sentence "Barukh") is supposed to be me'ein hachasimah. But it can drift all over the place in between. Any berakhah that covers multiple topics has to be a berakhah arukhah -- barukh at beginning and last sentence; or semuchah lechaverta and thus the first barukh can be omitted. (The AhS invokes this idea to explain the structure of Birkhas haZon (the first berakhah of bentchen). The middle berakhah on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or Rosh Chodesh is apparently a berakhah arukhah hasemukhah lechaverta. Therefore, it is allowed to have multiple topics, never mind insisting it closely match the chasimah. As long as the close is me'ein hachasimah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Mon Feb 22 09:01:51 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:01:51 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 22, 2021 01:19:26 pm Message-ID: <16140349120.7Aaf7F4e.96628@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > ... I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has > free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other > way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* > b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, > some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only > by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on > only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. > > Are there any other examples of this? > There are plenty of examples of prayers that may be recited by individuals, and that may not be recited by the tzibbur. For example, suppose you have asked Sarah Pippik to marry you, and she has nodded her head and said she'll get back to you on that. Unquestionably, until you hear back from her with her answer, you are going to be inserting a private prayer three times a weekday into the benediction of Shomea` Tefillah, that she say yes to your proposal. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Xonen Hadda`ath, if you think that not marrying you indicates a failure of intelligence on her part. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Rofeh Xoley `Amo Yisrael, if you are marrying Rn. Pippik because you need a kidney transplant, and she has the same blood type as you. The point is that individuals are allowed to utter certain kinds of prayers, that the tzibbur is not allowed to say. Now, there are special laws about rain, such that, if an entire community needs rain, a tzibbur is allowed to ask for it. But that is only because our Sages have enacted laws permitting it. Otherwise it would be forbidden. Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah. Or if the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition of the `Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, unless a good strong rain would sweep the frogs back into the river where they came from. It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed to make. Unrelated to the above, in your earlier post, you mispronounced "seiruv". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 23 05:20:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:20:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? A. The Meiri (Sefer Magen Avos 23) writes that Taanis Esther is different than other communal fast days. Other communal fast days commemorate events of tragedy, while Taanis Esther is a day of celebration, for on that day, the Jews of old fasted before going to war (Mishna Berura 686:2), merited to have Hashem listen to their plea and overcame their enemies. This contrast is reflected in the following halacha: The Gemara (Megila 5a) states that when the 9th day of Av falls on Shabbos, the fast of Tisha B?av is delayed until Sunday. We do not observe the fast before Shabbos because one should postpone, rather than advance, the commemoration of tragedy. In contrast, when the 13th day of Adar falls on Shabbos, Taanis Esther is observed on the previous Thursday. We may advance the fast since it commemorates a joyous event. By the same token, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l (Halichos Shlomo, Purim 18:6) contrasts Taanis Esther with other fast days with respect to bathing and cutting hair. Although bathing is technically permitted on all fast days except Tisha B?av (Shulchan Oruch 550:1), and hair cutting is acceptable on Tzom Gedalia and Asara B?teves, some are stringent and do not bathe and take haircuts on communal fast days, in keeping with the sad character of the day . This is not the case with Taanis Esther, where everyone agrees that bathing and haircuts are permissible. Rav Zilberstein, shlita (Chashukei Chemed Megila 16b) writes that one may even listen to music. However, Rav Elyashiv, zt?l is quoted in the sefer Ashrei HaIsh (Vol. 3:41:20) as saying that it is inappropriate to listen to music. Taanis Esther is also a day of forgiveness, and music will detract from the solemnity of the day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 23 22:25:48 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 06:25:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices Message-ID: Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim. My question, almost partially addressed in the article, is assuming such a waiver is effective, is it what HKB"H wants of us? Such a waiver certainly would help the children avoid difficult issues, not just event related such as weddings, but every day issues as well. Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the waiver sending the right message? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 24 07:13:33 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:13:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 24 05:31:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:31:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? A. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim falls on erev Shabbos, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbos. (If one eats the Purim seuda later in the day, there will minimal appetite for the Shabbos meal.) The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may lechatchila postpone the seuda up until three hours before sunset. (These three hours refer to sho?os zemanios, which means the length of each hour is proportionate to the length of the day. As an example, three hours of sho?os zemanios before sunset on Purim this year in New York City will be approximately 3:00PM.) Bedieved, if unable to begin the seuda before the three-hour period, one must start the seuda before sunset, which is when Shabbos begins. However, during this three-hour time frame, only a minimal meal should be eaten (a little more than a kibaiya of challah and a small amount of meat and wine) so that one will have an appetite to eat the Friday night seuda. (See Rema 529:1 and Aruch Hashulchan 249:7) If one did not complete the Purim seuda before shkia (sunset), which is when Shabbos begins, the challah must be covered and Kiddush is recited, and then the meal continues. Hamotzi is not recited on the challah since one is in the middle of the meal (OC 271:4 and MB 18). If one drank wine during the first part of the meal, Borei Pri Hagefen is omitted during kiddush (ibid). After the seuda, one davens Kabbalas Shabbos and Maariv. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if the meal continues after sunset, Retzei is recited in Birchas Hamozon, but Al Hanissim is omitted. (One cannot recite both Retzei and Al Hanissim, as this would be contradictory. Since we recite Retzei, this indicates that Shabbos has begun, and Purim has concluded.) YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Feb 24 10:00:02 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:00:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered via Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D.BD.20687.45496306@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 12:18 PM 2/24/2021, avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org wrote: >An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the >salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single >food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, >*different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to >be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT >have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two >types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] The salad that we buy which is sold by someone in Lakewood and is made by Postiv, has the croutons in a separate plastic bag, and hence the salad and the croutons are not mixed tether, but are separate. This to me qualifies as two different foods.. >One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! I do not agree with this. The Jewish Press used to write, "Consult your local COMPETENT Orthodox rabbi." I always took this to mean that not every O rabbi is competent to answer all questions, and I do firmly believe that this is the case. For example, I have in the past had conversations with O rabbis about kashrus, and it quickly became clear that they only had "global" knowledge about hashgachos, but no detailed knowledge. A question like "Whose meat is used in such and such a product?" was met with silence. Again, not every O rabbi has the knowledge to answer all questions. How could any one man know all the nuances of the technological world we live in? Instead of CYLOR, you should write CYLCOR. YL From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 24 15:11:29 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:11:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210224231129.GG18755@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 06:25:48AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning > parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim... If the reason for aveilus running more than sheloshim is kibud (or yir'as) av va'eim rather than aveilus itself, granting them this ability would be very logical. Like doing anything else for one's parent; if they don't want it done, there is no chiyuv to do it. (For yir'ah too -- you can get reshus from a parent to sit in their seat.) To answer your question > Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they > choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand > in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the > waiver sending the right message? It depends why the parents gave them reshus. No? It could be the parent is doing the child a favor. It could be the parent believes they are better served without it. And I could picture very different answers to your questions in those two scenarios. A mother might have waved aveilus because family is important to her, and she wants her children to be able to go to the cousin's wedding that is coming up. It may be greater kibud eim to obey her accomodating going to her niece's wedding. Alternatively, mom might know her child really want to get to their friend's upcoming wedding, and doesn't want you making major sacrifices. If indeed months 2-12 are all about kibud or eimah, and the request is for the parents' sake, the greater kibud av va'eim would be not practicing aveilus. Or maybe, just going to the one wedding. Okay, we need a scenario where the motive is continuous. (The only thing that came to mind is pretty depressing: Dad got his act together, but always regretted the years he was an abusive parent. He would prefer the kapparah of a short aveilus more than a full year of the son being pushed to think about their troubled relationship.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:55:59 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:55:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: > Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many > ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon > (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only > recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? The simple answer is: Minhagim change. That's their nature. One could just as well ask why almost none of the siddurim I've seen use the halacha's text for Haneros Halalu. (It's in O"C 676. Pick your favorite rishon or acharon, and compare what they write to what you say. Cheat sheet available at https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n251.shtml#19) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 08:31:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:31:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Are you or someone you know not going to shul this Purim? (Again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note that you can pause the reading or rewind one minute. Instructions are given at the beginning of the recording. [https://groups.io/img/digest_ico_01.png] Attachments: [X] IMG-20210224-WA0008.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:41:02 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:41:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] HILCHOS PESACH FOR THE PURIM SEUDAH Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin The Rema (in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 695:2) writes that the Seudas Purim, the festive Purim meal, should commence with Divrei Torah. The Mishna Berurah (in Orach Chayim 429, seif katan 2) rules that one must begin learning about Pesach on Purim--which is exactly 30 days before Pesach. Accordingly, putting the Rema and Mishna Berurah together, it is therefore a custom to commence the Purim Seudah with a Halacha about Pesach. In this way, one also connects the Geulah of Purim to the Geulah of Pesach (see Ta?anis 29A, which states that the reason we should increase our simcha to such a great extent in Adar is because it is the commencement of both the miracles of Purim and Pesach). We provide two Halachos for you to begin: 1. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 429:1) begins Hilchos Pesach by writing that it is our Minhag to give wheat to the poor in order to help them celebrate Pesach. The Mishna Berurah (seif katan 3) notes that this Minhag dates back to the time of Chazal. 2. Rabbi Shimon Eider, Z?tl, in the Halachos of Pesach writes that in lieu of wheat, some have the custom to distribute flour or other food supplies. In our time, most communities distribute money for the poor, in order for them to purchase their needs. The leaders of our community do not tax or otherwise assess their constituents, but instead everyone is expected to give to the best of his ability. Hakhel Note: As we connect Matanos L?Evyonim to Ma?os Chitim--let us remember the Pasuk (Yeshaya 1:27): ?Tzion B?Mishpat Tipadeh V?Shaveha B?Tzedaka?--speedily and in our day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:31:53 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:31:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say Message-ID: . R' Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter wrote: > ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the > tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a > prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the 'Amidah. Or if > the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, > the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition > of the 'Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, ... > It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed > to make. Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a prohibition. To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? In any case, my original question (in the thread "Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur") was not about impromptu prayers for special events. It was about established prayers that we can find in the siddur, machzor, or elsewhere. There are many that may be said only with a minyan, and I'm wondering if there are any (beside Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah) that may be said only with*out* a minyan. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:14:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:14:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? A. The Megillah relates that the Jews fought their enemies on the 13th day of Adar. They rested and celebrated on the following day, the 14th of Adar, and that is the day that Purim is generally observed. In the capital city of Shushan there were more enemies of the Jews. The battle lasted two days and they celebrated on the 15th of Adar. Shushan was a walled city and the Rabbis instituted that Shushan and other walled cities such as Yerushalayim would celebrate Purim on the 15th. This is known as Shushan Purim. (See Aruch Hashulchan 668:2-4) The Jewish calendar is set in a manner that the 14th of Adar will never fall on Shabbos, while the 15th of Adar occasionally falls on Shabbos. Some of the mitzvos of Purim cannot be fulfilled on Shabbos, and they are observed instead on Friday and Sunday. In such instances, Purim in Yerushalayim spans three days, and that is why it is called Purim Meshulash (the three day Purim). Here is the breakdown of mitzvos for each day of Purim Meshulash: Friday: Chazal did not want the Megilah to be read on Shabbos out of concern that one might forget it is Shabbos and carry the Megillah in an area where there is no eiruv. Rather, they instituted that the Jews of Yerushalayim read the Megillh on Friday, in conformity with everyone else around the world. Chazal associated the mitzvah of Matanos L?evyonim (giving gifts to the poor) with the reading of the Megillah, so even in Yerushalayim, matanos l?evyonim is given on Friday, even though it is not yet Purim. Rav Ovadya Yosef zt?l (Yechave Daas 1:90) points out that if one has a minhag not to do melacha on Purim (and treat it like Chol Ham?oed), melacha may be performed on Friday (in Yerushalayim), since it is not actually Purim. Shabbos: The Kerias HaTorah of Purim is read on Shabbos, as well as a special Haftorah for Purim. Al Hanissim is inserted in davening and bentching. It is proper to add a special dish to the Shabbos meal in honor of Purim. Since Megillah is not read on Shabbos, it is proper to discuss the halachos of Purim to remind oneself that it is Purim day (Mishnah Berurah 688:16). Sunday: The Purim seuda takes place on Sunday and Mishloach Manos are distributed then as well. We follow the poskim who rule that Al Hanissim is not said in davening or bentching. However, since there is a minority opinion that it should be said, Rav Ovadya Yosef recommends that it be added at the end of bentching in the section of Harachaman. (Harachaman yaaseh imanu nisim v?niflaos k?mo she?asa la?avoseinu ba?yamim ha?heim ba?zman ha?zeh. Bi?yemei Mordechai?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:35:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/2/21 10:31 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar > to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a > chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big > event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's > health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many > tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When > the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the > leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? The obvious analogy is to those countries that need rain when it is not needed in Bavel, and therefore Tal Umatar is not said. The halacha is that each individual in those countries should add "Vesein Tal Umatar Livracha" in Shomea` Tefillah. However the shliach tzibur does not do so, even though each individual he is representing needs rain and did pray for it in his private tefillah. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:43:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:43:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23baca0a-f837-9cb5-c594-5a5aea4b649a@sero.name> On 25/2/21 9:14 am, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Sunday: The Purim /seuda/ takes place on Sunday and /Mishloach Manos/ > are distributed then as well. This is the opinion of the Mechaber, who is nowadays considered the "Mara De'asra" of the whole Eretz Yisrael. But in his day he was not so considered. Yerushalayim had its own rav, the Ralbach, who holds differently; he holds that Seudas Purim and Mishloach Manos should be performed on Shabbos, and thus there is only a 2-day Purim, not 3 days. I assume that in his day the Sefardi community of Yerushalayim followed his psak and not that of the Mechaber in Tzefas. I wonder at what point the community practice changed to that of the Mechaber, and whether this was influenced by the arrival of new immigrants who challenged the existing minhag based on what is written in the Shulchan Aruch. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 14:08:50 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:08:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60ec2494-9da8-8764-525b-2d8fda20d3f3@sero.name> See Malbim, who sees the whole story as a political struggle between Achashverosh and the political establishment. Bavel had been a constitutional monarchy, its kinds bound by the law, and remained so after the Persian kings conquered it. But Achashverosh, having usurped the throne, was not content with this and wanted to change it to an absolute monarchy, where the law is subject to the king, and all the country's wealth is his to spend as he pleases. So he unilaterally moved the capital to Shushan, which had never been an important city before, and then started spending untold fortunes on an endless party, at which his own appointees, servants, and armies were honored ahead of the statesmen and ministers who had been there before him. He was rubbing their faces in the new reality. Then, once he felt that point had been made, he punctuated it by throwing a party for all the commoners whose only yichus was that they happened to live in his new capital city, and at the peak of this party he summoned Vashti, the princess of the ancien regime, to humiliate her and show that she is subject to his whims, because his authority does not derive from her but from his own might. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 07:51:08 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:51:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been > "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber > pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying > otherwise. > Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. I'd like to suggest, aliba d'RMB, how this development (from "two manos" to "two minim") might have occurred. (If he wrote this in his posts, then apologize for not seeing it.) But - today being National V'nahapoch Hu Day - I'll begin at the end of the story. There is a well-known practice nowadays (I will not call it a minhag, and AFAIK not a single posek anywhere requires it) that one's basic "two manos" should be of food that have different brachos. The reason for this (in my eyes, quite obviously) is because of what counts as two "minim". Is a chicken wing and a leg two minim or that same min? What of a cookie and a donut? White wine and red? Two different white wines? Choosing foods of different bracha removes the confusion. Similarly, I can very easily imagine confusion over how large a "maneh" must be. Imagine one piece of roast, and another piece of roast. That could be two portions for an ani, or a half-portion for a teenager. So it evolved into "two minim", which simplified things greatly. Just a guess, of course. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 08:24:12 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:24:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Message-ID: . [[[ I received this a few minutes ago, in an email from a friend. I cannot verify whether it is actually from the RCBC or not, but I'd like to think it is. Just to remind everyone, I am proud to have been originally a resident of Bergen County, whose rabbis almost a year ago had the courage to shut down all the shuls even before the government required them to do so. - Akiva ]]] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Thursday, February 25, 2021 Dear Friends, In response to our recent letter about Purim and Pesach during the pandemic, many of you have asked for more detailed guidelines about how to safely fulfill the various mitzvos of Purim this year. Please see below for additional parameters, and please direct any questions to your local Orthodox rabbi in a masked, socially distanced fashion. We empathize with the general feelings of ?Covid-19 fatigue.? However, we have been informed that a new, more virulent *Galitzianer strain* has been spreading in our community. As such, this is not the time to let our guard down. *Kriyas Hamegillah* Every Jew is obligated to hear the megillah twice on Purim, but safety concerns must take precedence. We recommend that all megillah readings be done in less than 15 minutes, to stay below the CDC time frame for Covid-19 exposure. As breathing is dangerous for everyone, instead of just reading the ten sons of Haman in one breath, the baal korei should attempt to read the entire megillah in one breath. If he must take a breath during the reading, a plastic supermarket bag should be placed over his head. Care should be taken to use one of the thick kosher supermarket bags, not those thin ones from CVS. In addition, while normally a ?hei degusha? is aspirated in words like ?lah? and ?bah,? aspirating is considered a sakanas nefashos and therefore should be avoided, as bedieved the reading is kosher without such aspirated letters. Similarly, the letter ?pei? should be replaced with the softer ?fei? if the meaning of the word is not changed. Perhaps this is why Hashem in His infinite wisdom named the holiday Furim instead of Purim (see Esther 9:26). Finally, we are all familiar with the minhag to read pesukim relating to a threat of death for the Jewish people in Eicha trop. This year many more pesukim refer to deadly threats, such as ?leich kenos es kol hayehudim? (Esther 4:16) and ?vayikahalu hayehudim? (Esther 9:15). To ensure that people do not follow these examples and gather in groups, these pesukim should also be read in Eicha trop. If it does not impede one?s ability to finish reading in less than 15 minutes, one may choose to read the entire megillah in Eicha trop, so as to diminish any feelings of mirth that may lead to a momentary lapse in Covid-19 precautions, chas v?shalom *Matanos L?Evyonim* While giving money to the poor is an important part of the holiday, extreme care must be taken to not infect those who we are trying to help. While paper money is normally handed to the poor on Purim, this will necessitate the giver coming too close to the receiver, thus putting him or her in grave danger. It is also difficult to properly sanitize paper bills with Purell. Therefore, it is recommended to pre-sanitize coins and then throw them at the poor from a distance of at least six feet. *Mishloach Manos* Our usual practice of bringing food to others? homes should be avoided this year, as standing outside someone?s door may inadvertently lead to entering their house. Many of you have asked whether one who pays taxes which are then used to provide free boxes of food to the members of our community can consider this their mishloach manos. Since the distribution of these food boxes is done in a contactless manner, this is an ideal way to fulfill the mitzvah. Those who have not reported sufficient income to require paying taxes should give some money to a wealthier neighbor and thus be considered a meshutaf (partner) in his tax payments. *Seuda* The Purim seuda is usually a festive gathering and is thus the most challenging mitzvah to fulfill this year. In addition, while drinking alcohol is always discouraged, especially on Purim, it is even more inadvisable this year as it would require removing one?s mask. There is a common misconception that the mitzvah of simcha on Purim requires one to be happy the entire day. However, according to most rishonim, the shiur of simcha only requires being happy for a toch kedei dibur - about 3.4 seconds, or 4.2 seconds according to the Chazon Ish. While it is so hard for us to find any joy these days, one can read a posuk of the Torah for a few seconds (quietly, alone, and masked) and thus fulfill the mitzvah of simcha as required on Purim. Please make sure to finish being happy by chatzos so as to have time to prepare for another lonely shabbos. *Lifnim Mishuras Hadin* While none of these restrictions are necessary based on CDC or state guidelines, it is critical that we continue to signal to the world how much more virtuous we are than our ?frummer? brothers and sisters in Passaic, Lakewood, and the Five Towns. We therefore urge everyone to get at least three shots of the vaccine, stay at least eight feet apart, and wear at least two masks (unless that becomes commonplace, in which case we should wear a minimum of three masks). Wishing everyone a safe, meaningful, and safe Purim. The Rabbinical Council of Bergen County -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Feb 28 14:29:21 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 22:29:21 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 25, 2021 12:00:04 pm Message-ID: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the >> tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a >> prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah.... >> > > Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you > have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a > prohibition. > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, > similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh > Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The > community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come > and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, > many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd > unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites > Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either > in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? > This is not going to be a satisfactory answer, but one reason for thinking that it cannot be done, is that it is not done. The scenario that you described above happens frequently: the community arranges a big event, many Psalms are recited, many speeches are given, there is communal prayer -- and the shliax tzibbur adds nothing to the repetition of the `Amida. I have seen it happen, you have seen it happen. This is not an entirely satisfactory answer, because there are plenty of explicitly permitted practices, that are not practiced. Thus, that something is not done, does not necessarily imply that it cannot be done. For example, there is an undisputed halakha of "pores mappah umqaddesh", which would have been the ideal way to fulfil the mitzva of s`udath Purim last week, but I have never seen it done, or ever heard of it done, outside of Jerusalem, which is allowed to have her own customs. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim without wine, early in the day, is not the ideal way of fulfilling the mitzva. The other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise it is theft, and it is a serious sin. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim after working hours is not permitted on a Friday, even if you live in the Diego Ramirez Islands where sunset is late, unless you are pores mappah umqaddesh, because otherwise you are having your s`udath Purim too close to your s`udath Shabbath. And yet, I have never heard of anyone doing it, outside of Jerusalem. So, the fact that something is never done -- even when you think that it would and should be done, if it were permissible -- does not necessary mean that it is not permissible. So, let us look for an answer in the Shulxan `Arukh. Orax Xayyim 119:1 is the first place where it explicitly says that an individual (even when not offering a tefillath n'dava, vide infra) is allowed to insert personal requests in the silent `Amida, although there are earlier allusions to this halakha in 90:15 and 101:4. The halakha makes a point of mentioning, incidentally, that you must phrase your request in the singular, because it is a personal request. Now, let us assume, arguendo, that the shliax tzibbur is permitted to insert communal requests, in the repetition of the `Amida. One would think, that just as there is a halakha in 119:1 explicitly permitting an individual to do such a thing, there would be a parallel halakha a few simanim later, permitting the shliax tzibbur to do such a thing, but there is no such a halakha. Now, of course, the absence of a halakha permitting something does not, in general, mean that it is forbidden; but the author of the Shulxan `Arukh did think, for some reason, that there was a need, in this case, for a halakha permitting it to an individual; I would expect, therefore, that for the same reason -- whatever that reason might be -- there would be a need for a parallel halakha permitting it to the shliax tzibbur, if it were permitted. Moreover, the halakha in 107:2 is that an individual who offers an entirely voluntary prayer, which we call a tefillath n'dava, is obliged to add a personal request in his or her `Amida; and I assume that this is the reason why you are not allowed to offer a tefillath n'dava on Shabbath or Yom Tov, because you are not allowed to add personal requests to the `Amida on Shabbath or Yom Tov. 107:3 states that the tzibbur is not allowed -- is never allowed -- to offer a tefillath n'dava, and I assume that it is for the same reason, that the tzibbur is not allowed to add additional requests to the `Amida. A more thorough answer would discuss other sources -- or at least the Beyth Yosef, since I am making inferences from what is not mentioned in the Shulxan `Arukh -- but I presently lack the time (and perhaps the skill, although that may just be my saintly modesty speaking), to put any more time into a more thorough and better-researched answer. Hopefully, someone who has time to research this question more properly will find it interesting -- because I think it is -- and continue the conversation. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 1 05:25:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:25:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? A. The answer to this question emerges from an unusual story in the Gemarah. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 102b) relates that Rav Ashi referred to the evil King Menashe in a dishonorable way. That night, King Menashe appeared to Rav Ashi in a dream and quizzed him about which part of the bread must one eat first. Rav Ashi did not know the answer and King Menashe taught him that we must begin eating from the area that was baked first. Rav Ashi accepted this ruling and taught this halacha the next morning ?in the name of our teacher, King Menashe?. The Mishnah Berurah (167:1) explains that we honor the beracha by taking the first bite from the part of the bread that was most baked. This halacha is codified in Shulchan Aruch (OC 167:1). The Rema writes that since it is not clear which part of our bread bakes first, we should cut a piece from the crusty end of the loaf that contains both the top and the bottom and this piece should be eaten first. Many Kabalistic explanations are given as to the significance of this halacha, and why it was specifically taught by King Menashe. The Ben Ish Chai (Parshas Emor 1:1) writes that this is an absolute obligation. Only if one is elderly and unable to chew the crust may he begin eating the soft center. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 06:29:38 2021 From: allan.engel at gmail.com (allan.engel at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 14:29:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: The concept of employed people taking days off work for holidays does exist. On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 at 14:07, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: The > other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before > or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or > self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise > it is theft, and it is a serious sin. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 2 22:39:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 06:39:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kupat tzedaka Message-ID: I am learning the AH"S hilchot tzedaka and am struck by the poverty in the communities he relates to. This reminded me of imi morati ZL""HH relating her father's description of the grinding poverty in the shtetl. (lots of sociological history in halacha). Of particular interest was his description of how the universal practice of a single communal kupat tzedaka came to an end. Sometimes reality trumps "halacha" and maybe the mimetic tradition fails to restart in cases it should. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 05:24:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:24:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll. Is it preferable for me to recite Hamotzi right away, to minimize the hefsek (delay) between washing and Hamotzi, or should I wait until I return to my table so I can recite Hamotzi on a whole loaf of bread? A. First, let's review the general halochos of hefsek between netilas yadayim and Hamotzi. Shulchan Aruch (OC 166:1) quotes a dispute whether one is required to recite Hamotzi immediately after washing netilas yadayim, or is it not necessary. Because of the uncertainty, the Shulchan Aruch concludes that it is best not to delay. The Rema adds that if one waited between drying their hands and reciting Hamotzi longer than the time it takes to walk 22 amos (approximately 10 seconds), it is considered a hefsek. Nonetheless, the Mishnah Berurah (ibid s?k 6) writes that although it is preferable to make Hamotzi immediately after netilas yadayim, if a significant break did occur, it is not necessary to wash again. However, Igeros Moshe (OC 2:48) notes that speaking between washing and Hamotzi is a more significant hefsek and would necessitate netilas yadayim and a new bracha (unless what was spoken related to the meal). Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 13:35:15 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 21:35:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE Message-ID: The following is from the article The Legacy of RSRH, ZT"L that appears in the Sefer Selected Writings by Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L. Rav Hirsch is usually accepted as the exponent of the Torah im Derech Eretz philosophy. This principle is explained by his grandson, Dr. Isaac Breuer, as follows: "He was strictly opposed to compromise or reconciliation, or even a synthesis: he demanded full and uncompromising rulership of the Torah. The Torah cannot endure co-rulership, far less tolerate it. As a true revolutionary he seized the liberalistic individual, the liberalistic, humanitarian ideal, liberalistic capitalism, and the human intellect, celebrating orgies in the liberalistic science, and dragged them as "circumstances", in the narrowest sense of the word, to the flaming fire of the Torah to be purified or, if need be, to be consumed. As a true revolutionary he solved the unbearable tension between the Torah and the new era which had dawned over the Jews of Western Europe. He invaded the new era with the weapons of the Torah, analyzed and dissected it down to its last ingredients, and then shaped and reformed it until it could be placed at the feet of the Torah, as new nourishment for the Divine fire. The proclamation of the rulership of the Torah over the new era was the historic achievement of Hirsch's life for his own contemporaries." -- ("Hirsch as a Guide to Jewish History'' in Fundamentals of Judaism, published by Feldheim, 1949.) Unfortunately, the principle of Torah im Derech Eretz is grossly misunderstood by our contemporary Jewish orthodoxy. It does not mean that one who is a full-fledged citizen of hedonistic America and at the same time keeps the laws of the Torah, is a follower of Torah im Derech Eretz. Not to violate the laws of the Torah certainly deserves praise and recognition but it is not an embodiment of the Hirschian philosophy. Likewise, an academy dedicated to the study of science and philosophy, not in order to serve the understanding of Torah or to further the aims of the Torah but as the independent search by the human intellect to understand and control the world around -- even when added to a department of profound and very scholarly Torah studies -this is not an outgrowth of the Torah im Derech Eretz Weltanschauung of Samson Raphael Hirsch. Also, a secular university in Israel, albeit under skullcap auspices, complete with Judaic studies, is extremely remote from a Torah im Derech Eretz school even if it has established a "Samson Raphael Hirsch chair" as part of its academic set-up, something which almost borders on blasphemy. The Orthodox professional who is not regularly "koveah ittim batorah", or otherwise lacks in the performance of mitzvohs, or who is immodest in dress or behavior, is not a follower of Samson Raphael Hirsch. From all of Hirsch's prolific writings, it becomes evident that his main concern was to establish the majesty of the Divine Word and the role of the Divine Will as revealed in the Torah, to dominate all the highways and by-ways of mundane life. Those who abuse Torah im Derech Eretz as a "hetter" to lead a life of easygoing and lenient "Yiddishkeit" or those who consider the Hirschian idea as a compromise between the right and the left in Jewish thinking have distorted the meaning of the principle as laid down in the Mishne, Avos, Perek 2, 2: "Beautiful is the study of Torah combined with Derech Eretz for the effort to attain both makes one forget to commit sins". The Torah is not a mere branch of human knowledge, one discipline amongst many others, but rather must the Torah dominate all secular knowledge and all worldly activities. Equally so, the community of Israel, Klal Yisroel, as well as all Kd1il!os and organized communities, be they local or international -- which are all segments of Klal Yisroel -- are not supposed to be mere branches of a neutral Israel but are to be totally independent. The Torah community is not beholden to any non-Torah community and it. does not even recognize its authenticity. This is the essence of the Hirschian Austritt (separation) ideology. The so ailed "Austritt" is the militant vigilance of the conscientious Jew defending the Torah community against all encroachments from the non-Torah powers that be. The "AustrittL" and Torah im Derech Eretz go hand in hand, they form "one package", so to speak, and both these aspects of Hirschian thought have one aim: the total domination of Torah over all thinking and actions of individual and national life. He who separates the rule of the Torah over all facets of the communal life of Kial Yisroel from the rule of the Torah over all human knowledge, in short, he who separates the "Austritt" from Torah im Derech Eretz, renders a disservice to both. Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. It. is none of these. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 3 15:32:08 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:32:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210303233207.GF29384@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 03, 2021 at 01:24:19PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 4 05:52:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:52:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. ---------------------------------- Interesting - You had me till here -I read through the whole piece carefully and it's pretty much what I heard from my rebbeim (and some secular studies teachers)at MTA - not always carried out but certainly the aspiration (and what I've tried to live up to) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Mar 4 04:28:35 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 07:28:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha References: Message-ID: At 06:32 PM 3/3/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up > >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... > > >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal > >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, > >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which > >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes > >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). > >Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to >the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, >wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. > >That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the >washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 4 15:21:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 18:21:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 04, 2021 at 07:28:35AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if > this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, > then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make > Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that bite? Tir'u baTov! -Micha From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 10:40:19 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:40:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . Regarding the seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach - I remember many conversations in years past about making rolls from matza meal to use for these seudos, and we discussed various recipes and what bracha would be said, and whether or not they are allowed on Erev Pesach. Have we ever discussed making a matza meal (or matza farfel) *kugel*? It occurred to me that this would be a very simple solution (for those who eat gebroks, obviously), at least for an early afternoon Seudah Shlishis. A similar idea would be if a cholent could have enough matza in it that its bracha is mezonos. I could raise various issues and questions, but I think the best first step is to ask whether we've already covered this. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Mar 5 07:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 10:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:21 PM 3/4/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a >precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that >bite? You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, no matter what you make it on. YL From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 5 13:35:55 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > no matter what you make it on. And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From larry62341 at optonline.net Sat Mar 6 16:46:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 19:46:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:35 PM 3/5/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > > no matter what you make it on. > >And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > >The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station >to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. > >Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you >are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference >for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. >>Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their >>dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and >>then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. >>According to you it would be preferable to have lechem Mishneh >>next to the sink in the kitchen and make Hamotzi there, since this >>would avoid " an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the >>bread." Yet no one I know makes Hamotzi at the sink in the >>kitchen. Everyone who does not have a sink in their dining room, >>wahses in the kitchen and then walks into the dining room, sits >>down, and then makes Hamotzit. This is clearly the preferable way >>to do things. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 7 08:15:03 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:15:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 07:46:47PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: >> And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >> As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their > dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and > then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi on a shaleim at the washing station. This situation differs from what I wrote in two ways: 1- First, you set up a situation where the pause is far less avoidable. Not the "unnecessary" pause of returning to your table from the washing station when the caterer put bread cubes there to make HaMotzi on which you choose not to use in order to make the berakhah on a shaleim. Besides, sometimes, people can't even know which seat they want until more people entered, they don't want a long line at the washing station and want to wash before the crowd, so they are hunting for a spot after HaMotzi. 2- When you wash for HaMotzi on Shabbos, everyone is up to the same part of the meal. People know that others are between washing and HaMotzi. People at a simchah have a wide variety of start times. The odds that you are greeted and might reply, or they might not understand why you aren't replying, are significant. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of http://www.aishdas.org/asp heights as long as he works his wings. Author: Widen Your Tent But if he relaxes them for but one minute, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF he plummets downward. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 08:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 11:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a >piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay >at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi >on a shaleim at the washing station. Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should preferably be made sitting not standing. At the washing station you are standing, At your table you are presumably sitting. This is an important difference. Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 10:16:54 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 13:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sitting for Hamotzi Message-ID: <3D.0D.01388.9E815406@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/85596/need-to-sit-for-hamotzi Is there an obligation or a custom to sit down while saying hamotzi? What about for the other before blessings (borei minei mezonot, borei pri adamah, borei pri ha'etz, and shehakol nihiye bidvaro)? 1 Answer The Pri Megadim (opening to Brachos, 18) specifically states that there is no obligation to sit down for the Birchos HaNehenin (including the Hamotzi) However, Chazal (Gitin p. 70) and so in the Rambam (Deios chapter 4 Halacha 3) state that for good health and Derech Eretz one should eat while sitting. And since bread is being eaten while seated, as stated in the Mor Vektzia (mark 8) that "all things that are being done standing, the blessing should also be done standing. But things done while sitting, it is not proper to bless while standing, as in Birchas Hanehenin, but Bediavad Yatza" YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 8 00:54:46 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 08:54:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha Message-ID: I can not now locate the most recent thread about the Meshech Chochma's shita on kedusha, can't get the archive search to work, but IIRC R'MB said the MC holds consistently that kedusha is never inherent to an object, it is an outcome of Jewish input. It always requires human involvement. So when my pre-hesder son came home from a few days sampling the avira ruchani at Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavneh brandishing a source sheet from a shuir on cheit ha'egel, I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way. If we mess up our attitude to the place or object in question, the kedusha is removed. Seems clear from his language that he's saying the kedusha does not originate in our actions. It always originates with Hashem for the benefit of our relationship with him, and lasts only as long as that is maintained and as long as it serves that purpose. So WRT to the first luchos - 'Ein bahem kedusha mi'tzad atzmam. Rak bishvilchem she'atem shomrim osam'. If we damage the relationship mi'meila no more kedusha, We can't create kedusha except so far as the Torah specifies, ie still originating in Hashem's tzivui, but we can destroy it. This, I think, is a far less radical take on kedusha and answers my questions as to how the MC's model of kedusha applies to kohanim and to time. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:15:24 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210308181520.GA21061@aishdas.org> On Sun, Mar 07, 2021 at 11:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should > preferably be made sitting not standing... This was the main point of the OU Halakhah Yomis you started the conversation with: > Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is > preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of > reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an > overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and > 27). The author, you will note, didn't think that standing vs. sitting was an issue. Just time delay vs having a shaleim. I replied that given those two choices, you could take a roll off the table you're seated at with you to the washing stationg. (In terms of this din, it can equally be a roll from another table. But I would think it's wrong to risk that the table you take from doesn't have enough for the people seated there.) If you want to discuss standing, that's an interesting question. Why didn't the author of the OU page not consider making HaMotzi while sitting a factor to weigh? > Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting > which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting > denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. Actually, sitting for Havdalah is a Gra (Maaseh Rav) / Brisk style innovation. Minhag Ashkenaz was to stand (Rama OC 296:6). The reason why this was a much more common minhag than standing for Qiddush is because the meal is eaten sitting. But otherwise, the Kol Bo (41) said we would stand for both, as a show of kavod for the Shabbos Malka. Just as he has us stand for Havdalah. But back to the question of sitting... I don't think the need for qevi'us is invoked for the berakhah itself, but for being yotzei another. (E.g. Tosafos Berakhos 34a, "ho'il". In contrast, the SA OC 167:13 says you can be yotzei others even if everyone is standing). See AhS OC 296:17. He quotes the aforementioned Tosafos saying that since people prepare themselves for Havdalah, there is qevi'us even when standing. And one should stand as the king (King?, or or Who is the Shabbos Malka?) departs. (Except, he notes, according to the Gra.) So, if everyone is making their own HaMotzi at the wedding, sitting vs standing is a non-issue. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You are not a human being in search http://www.aishdas.org/asp of a spiritual experience. You are a Author: Widen Your Tent spiritual being immersed in a human - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:32:15 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:32:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 8 07:24:20 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:24:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] hashgacha pratis Message-ID: <150501d7142f$1caeb8b0$560c2a10$@touchlogic.com> The question (machlokes) if a person's free will allows them to act independently/against Hashems HP has been discussed here many times. I found the following post to be a very insightful and practical nafaka mina between those opinions http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2021/03/rape-does-g-d-want-someone-to-be-raped.html#disqus_thread A young lady once came to me for a theological consultation. This poised cheerful woman told me that when she was 10 she had been raped by two young yeshiva students at a religious summer camp. As a result of this incident she went into severe depression, became suicidal, and was finally placed in a mental hospital for an extended time. She said that baruch hashem, she had recovered and was no longer depressed or obsessed with revenge. Her visit was precipitated by having just seen her assailants walking down the street in Geula in Jerusalem with their wives and children -- as if they had never done anything evil. She said there was only one issue left from her experience which she couldn't come to grips with -- Why did G-d want her to be raped?" All the rabbis she had consulted with told her that it was G-d's will and that while they couldn't explain it that it must have been good and necessary. She just had to accept it as G-d's will. Her problem was that she couldn't accept that she worshipped a G-d that wanted this horrible thing to happen. I answered her that she was being told the dominant Chassidic/kabbalistic view. However I told her that [other] the Rishonim had a different view, i.e., that it is possible for a man to choose to hurt another -- even though G-d doesn't want it to happen. That she will be compensated in the Next World for her suffering but that G-d didn't cause it to happen. She was able to accept that view. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 9 10:22:59 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 13:22:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 9 03:20:10 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:20:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> References: , <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Can't see your take on this in his words. He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Further on in the words I quoted in the last email, the word 'bishvilchem' is vital. It's for 'for you', that's quite different to being 'from you' , ie me'itchem or some similar term. And he uses the term bishvilchem twice twice in that passage. A bit further again: 'ki ein shum kedusha v'inyan eloki klal biladei metzius haBoreh yisbarach shemo'. No reference to our role in maintaining kedusha there. And more broadly, his whole thesis revolves around the misunderstanding that kedusha can be a feature of something in the world independent of ratzon Hashem. So Moshe smashed the luchos to show the people how 'they hadn't achieved the goal of emuna in Hashem and his Torah hatehora'. That is, they had to realise that even the luchos were only kadosh because HKBH willed it. I'm part paraphrasing that section of course but,I think, accurately. It's true, he does also make clear that kedusha is depedant on us. But that's because without us it's meaningless, not because it originates with is. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 08 March 2021 06:32 To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Cc: Ben Bradley Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 9 08:54:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:54:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? Message-ID: From https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/ [https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/%22https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/907310658.webp?mw=500&mh=282%22] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? ? Shulchanaruchharav.com Is one required to stand when making Kiddush? Night Kiddush: [1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush. However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit. [ From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas ... shulchanaruchharav.com Night Kiddush:[1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush.[2] However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit.[3] [>From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.[4]] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas Vayechulu, although they slightly lift their bodies when saying the first words of Yom Hashishi Vayechulu Hashamayim.[5] [The above is all in accordance to Halacha, however, according to Kaballah, Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position.[6] Practically, the Chabad custom is to stand for the night Kiddush by all times, whether on Shabbos or Yom Tov.[7] So is also the Sefaradi custom, to stand for the night Kiddush[8] and so is the custom of some Gedolei Ashkenaz.[9] Other Gedolei Yisrael of Ashkenaz, however, retain the custom to sit while saying Kiddush.[10]] Day Kiddush: Whether one should stand or sit for the day Kiddush follows the same laws as the night Kiddush, of which we ruled that from the letter of the law one may choose to sit or stand, although it is better to sit and that so is the custom.[11] However, according to the ruling of Kabala, it is debated if the day Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position just as the night Kiddush, or if it is to be recited sitting.[12] Practically, many of those who are accustomed to stand for the night Kiddush are accustomed to sit for the day Kiddush.[13] Regarding the Chabad custom for the day Kiddush, there is no clear Chabad custom in this matter [as brought below] and whatever one chooses to do by the day Kiddush he has upon what to rely. Drinking the wine:[14] Even those who are accustomed to reciting Kiddush standing, are to drink the wine after Kiddush only after they sit.[15] [Nonetheless, some are lenient to drink the wine even while standing.[16]] Summary: >From the letter of the law, Kiddush can be said in either a sitting or standing position, and each one contains advantages over the other. Practically, different customs exist regarding if Kiddush is to be said sitting or standing, and each community is to follow their custom. Sefaradim stand for the night Kiddush but sit for the day Kiddush. Amongst Ashkenazim, some sit and others stand for both the night and day Kiddush. The Chabad custom is to recite the night Kiddush standing, although regarding the day Kiddush there is no clear custom. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 10 02:10:39 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:10:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> , <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: I'm stymied at this point by not being able to find the original posts we're referring to. But you state 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over' I think the temporary kedusha of Har Sinai is at least as consistent with the first approach as the second. Har Sinai had kedusha due to its role Hashem giving the Torah. Ma'amad finishes, kedusha ceases. At least as much emphasis on giver as receiver. I still think Shabbos is the proof. It's kadosh because Hashem wills it, period. Its kedusha is for us, to be sure, but our failure to keep it doesn't impact its kedusha. It remains kadosh regardless of our chillul. When it comes to kedusha of places and things, our reponse affects it because it's in our physical domain. Time is not in our domain, we live in it not vice versa, so we can't affect its kedusha. But there's only one overarching model of kedusha, and the principle gorem is Hashem, not us. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 09 March 2021 06:22 To: Ben Bradley Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Thu Mar 11 04:55:54 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 07:55:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah Message-ID: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> See https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/pesach/app/371/a-guide-to- erev-shabbos-that-occurs-on-pesach/ He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah 'Because the bracha on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use rolls for lechem mishneh' What dispute is he referring to? If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. Mordechai cohen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 11 13:17:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 16:17:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah In-Reply-To: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> References: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: <617710ea-0a5a-86a1-c525-a2d8519c63e8@sero.name> On 11/3/21 7:55 am, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah ?Because > the /bracha/?on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use > rolls for /lechem mishneh/? > > What dispute is he referring to? > > If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. > Only if you eat a shiur, which according to some opinions is 4 eggs if you are satisfied from the meal (which I assume you would be). Still, that's not an impossibly huge amount; why not just tell people that they have to eat that much egg matzah? (If you're not satisfied from the meal then the opinions range from 6 eggs to half an issaron, which is 21.6 eggs. Though presumably you'll be satisfied long before then. But in that case the eitza is simply to eat another potato!) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 12 09:19:39 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:19:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] THE HESEIBA VIDEO! Message-ID: HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, explains that Heseiba is not intended to be an act of contortion, but a comfortable way to eat in a reclined fashion, as if one is on a short bed. By clicking here, we present a video of HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, demonstrating how Heseiba should be done YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Sat Mar 13 10:19:59 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 18:19:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Shabbat Goes into Yom Tov In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone seen a discussion of davening Ma'ariv for Yom Tov/Motsa"sh early when Shabbat goes into Yom Tov (e.g. Seder Night) - including the recitation of Va-Todi'einu Shavu'ah Tov and Chodesh Tov Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 10:37:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:37:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: The CRC sent out an email saying that soft matzah is not acceptable for Ashkenazim. The person who knows a great deal about soft matzah is Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky. A google search for Zivotofsky soft matza yields * The Halachic Acceptability of Soft Matzah halachicadventures.com ? 09 of Soft Matzah Rabbi Dr. Ari Z Zivotofsky Dr. Ari Greenspan Introduction The Torah (Shmot 12:18) commands all Jews, men and women alike, to eat matzah on the ?rst night of Pesach; yet nowhere does it explain how to make this required product or how it should look. For most Jews today, matzah is a thin, * The Thick and Thin of the History of Matzah www.hakirah.org ? Vol17Zivotofsky Ari Zivotofsky, Ph.D., is a rabbi and shoh?etand teaches in the Bar Ilan University brain science program. Together they have been researching mesorah, history and halakhah from Jewish communities around the world for over 30 years. They write extensively and lecture worldwide. * Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky www.torahinmotion.org ? sites ? default Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? and more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 06:12:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 13:12:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? A. Ordinarily, after reciting a brocha on food, one may not speak until the beracha takes affect by swallowing a small bite of food. If one spoke before eating, the beracha is invalidated because of the hefsek (interruption) and must be repeated. While this is true for all foods, bread has a unique status. The Mishnah Berurah (167:35) writes that lichatchila (preferably), one should not talk until a kezayis (half the size of an egg) of bread is swallowed. However, if there is a pressing matter, one may converse after swallowing any amount. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if one spoke while chewing on the bread before swallowing, he is uncertain whether it is a beracha livatala (a blessing recited in vain) and perhaps the beracha would need to be repeated. Therefore, this should be avoided. However, the Chayei Adam writes that if a person swallowed some of the taste of the bread while chewing (even if not the actual bread itself), a new beracha is not said. In all cases, one should make an effort to swallow a kezayis of bread before talking. In the next Halacha Yomis we will discuss why bread is different than other foods. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:29:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:29:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315202916.GA25399@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 04:47:11PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the > very first thing we say after benching. [Shefokh chamsekha...] > Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who > "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name"... Thinking "out loud": A polytheist could know there is a Creator, but call on someone else. Or henotheists. Perhaps RSRH believes such people are more likely to be in the opposition, rather than ignorant. And since we switch from amim to mamlakhos, we are switching from peoples to countries, entities with militaries. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:54:45 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:54:45 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: <20210315205445.GC25399@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 03, 2021 at 01:02:59PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that > the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only > give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. Rabbi Yehudah, who authored an earlier version of the three berakhos (goy, bur, ishah) and the rebbe of R Meir who wrote our version says they are "who didn't make me" someone with fewer mitzvos. (Y-mi Berakhos vilna ed. 63b) And the chiyuvim and issurim are there whether or not one lives up to them. Maybe RMA is saying "she'asani Yisrael" would only be a berakhah if a person is on the tzaddiq side of the beinoni line? The Taz has an interesting argument (OC 46:4). He says that if the berakhos were framed as "she'asani", a person might think that nakhriim, slaves or women are less important creations. Rather, we say that while having been created a woman would have been a blessing, I thank the RBSO that I personally was given the role that has even yet more mitzvos than that! So, if RNA wants to build on the Taz, he could be saying the berakhah is thanking G-d for not only creating me with the opportunities to fulfill mitzvos of an X, but even more. On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 07:39:20PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure I understand. Aren't we taught that a Yisrael, even one > who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth > no matter what we do. The way I spun RNAlpert's idea in reply to RJR's post, I avoid this question. Yes, the person remains a Yisrael. But a sinful Yisrael. Like we tell the prospective geir: Why not remain a non-Jew and earn a lichtiger gan eden without all those duties and prohibitions? In any case, there is also the difference between Am Yisrael and Adas Yisrael. "Yisrael, af al pi shechata, Yisrael hu" refers to qedushas Am Yisrael. What RYBS calls the qedushah of the community of fate. But someone who isn't giving the eidus isn't a member of Adas Yisrael; they aren't participating in the qedushah of the community of destiny. The latter is used in the mishnah "Kol Yisrael yeish lahem cheileq le'olam haba" followed by the list of koferim, minim, apiqorsim and mumarim who don't. Because it is specifically all of Adas Yisrael who have a cheileq` RNAlpert could have meant that the berakhah "shelo asani Yisrael" would have meant "Adas Yisrael". But I like my first suggested peshat more. Feels more like something he actually would have said. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:33:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:33:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315213314.GC3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 06:39:57AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor > balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth > floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, > or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying > it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and > Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain > reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, > halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? One is not chayav for killing a tereifah or speeding up the death of a goseis. But it's still retzichah. So, just to get the post more attention, here is my guess: Shimon is oveir retzichah either way. The only question is punishability. Since lemafreia we know that Re'uvein wasn't omeid lamus, one would have said that Shimon's violation is punishable. Except that you set up a situation in which Shimon couldn't have been acting bemeizid and with hasra'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:28:05 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:28:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315212805.GB3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 10:31:53PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax > tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's > health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? I thought "kol hameshaneh mimatbeia shetav'u chakhamim eino ela to'eh" refers to making it a norm. But the similarly phrased "... bibrakhos, lo yatza yedei chovaso", about the chasimah or whether it's a berakhah arukhah, is even once. In personal baqashos... It is one thing to make a tefillah for cholim in a time of need. But one isn't supposed to be inserting the Yehi Ratzon into EVERY Refa'einu for months or years on end. Here, IMHO the justification would be similar to that of adding baqashos to Sh"E during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah. "Zokhreinu lechaim", "Mi Khamokha", etc... Not the chasimos, which aren't baqashos but special seasonal matbeios. Which the Sha"tz says too. So, I would think the Chazan could / should say something in Refa'einu. But my 2 week search for meqoros turned up empty. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:13:38 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:13:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315211338.GA3647@aishdas.org> We discussed this topic around 15 years ago. I ended up asking R Herschel Schachter. He brought proof from the Rama that Ashkenazim weren't making cracker-like matzos in his day. So of course the concept isn't a problem. (That said, I opened the question asking about a specific bakery which had just started taking on-line orders. So RHS reminded me that he hasn't looked at that bakery. While he can say the idea has no problems, he had no idea if the hekhsher checking the implementation is reliable.) You may recall that one of our more active members at the time was making wrap- or more accurately tortilla-like matzos. (Wraps usually contain yeast, and tortillas usually don't.) So the discussion got quite lively. I learned something else interesting in that discussion. Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A person lives with himself for seventy years, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and after it is all over, he still does not Author: Widen Your Tent know himself. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 15:07:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:07:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210315220748.GD3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10:39AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is > the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those > mitzvos? I think > ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem > raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah > kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Yes, this requires that the Borei actually commands them. But it's not quite what I would consider a partnership. G-d "participates" in the sense that according to R Meir Simchah haKohein qedushah is about the Inyan E-loki. The proximate cause is us; we are the only means of bringing that G-dliness into a place or object. R Yitzchak Blau has a lecture on Gush's VBM entitled "Sanctity in the Thought of R. Meir Simcha" at https://www.etzion.org.il/en/sanctity-thought-r-meir-simcha He has more examples there of the MC making statements about qedushah to this effect than I was researching. I was on Shemos 12:21 "mishkhu uqechu" when I found that RYB's lecture. Here's what I was open to: Vehinei yeish leha'arikh, shekol meqomos hamuqdashim ein YESODAM min hadas raq meiha'umah vehasharashim "Yesodam" is underlined in my MC. As he continues, all the das, the religious texts say is "the place where Hashem will choose." It's the places history as the place from where Adam was created and where Yitzchaq was ne'eqad that gives it qedushah. We don't identify a holy location by das, we identify it from the people. Also, "Raq Y-m vekhol EY veHar haMoriah benuyim al hisyachasum la'avoseinu". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 16 04:53:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:53:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). > But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In > which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia > se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Two questions: If a belila raqa is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin? If you need to check the label to determine something or other, then you're admitting that this product does have tzuras hapas, aren't you? The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah or raqa? Akiva Miller From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 16 08:18:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:18:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210316151802.GD3279@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:53:54AM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote: > If a belila rakah is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin?... See the AhS OC 158:28, quoting the BY. Two baked goods, one avah and one raqa. The avah is "lechem gamur hu" and gets hamotzi and benching. And the ones that is rakah and very thin is mezonos and al hamichyah. But, as pas haba bekisnin -- it's a hamotzi if you are qoveia se'udah. BUT in se'ifim 47-48 he talks about a different baked good that is rakah, water and flour poured onto the kirah. The Tur says that it's mezonos normally, hamotzi if you are qoveia' se'udah. The BY says it's always mezonos -- he holds it's not lechem at all. (Which I concluded to mean, not even PhBbK.) In se'if 47, it is mezonos because there is even the littlest liquid underneath it, even if it's just to stick. In 48, there is a goma under it. Goma is apparentlly a pullrush or papyrus leaf. I am guessing that is also about not sticking. A modern factory bakery is greasing the baking surface to prevent sticking, so I assumed the latter se'ifim were closer to our topic. (In fact, it was the only case that stuck in my memory until I went back to the siman and had an "oh yeah!". I was that sure that's the case we typically face.) > The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the > liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba > b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah > or raqa? I didn't mean the ingredient label. I meant check if there is anything written next to the hekhsher. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 16 00:20:30 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:20:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Several individuals have asked me to elucidate my question appearing in Avodah Digest, Vol 39, Issue 23 regarding early minha Maariv on Shabbat going into Yom Tov If you look at the Nosei Kelim in SA OH 293:3 (e.g., Mishna Berura no. 9), it is clear that Davening Minha/Maariv [before and After Plag - with va-Todi'einu in Ma'ariv] early on Shabbat afternoon going into Yom Tov (like this year), is considered a davar Tamu'ah and halakhically dangerous since people may start with preparations for yom tov (Seder) and even melakha - and not wait for Tseit ha-Kokhavim. Hence it is permitted only bi-she'at ha-dehak (See Mishna Berura). The question is whether with the change of clock to DST, starting the Seder as soon as possible after tseit so the young children and zekeinim will be able to stay up for the seder is enough of a She'at ha-dehak to permit it. Two poskim were consulted on 2 Nisan 5781 (March 15, 2021): Rav Asher Zelig Weiss and Rav Avraham Shraga Stiglitz both Shlita - and were meikel in such a case. It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles be lit and the seder begin. Kol Tuv and Pesach Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Ethel and David Resnick Professor Emeritus of Active Oxygen Chemistry Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il. From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 08:19:58 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:19:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cracking the History of Soft Matzah Message-ID: This is a very interesting talk about soft matzah given by Rabbi dr. Ari Zivotofsky las year. The talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/podcast/cracking-the-history-of-soft-matzah Cracking the History of Soft Matzah | Torah In Motion Contact Us. Torah in Motion 3910 Bathurst Street, Suite 307 Toronto, ON M3H 5Z3 Canada Tel: (416) 633-5770 Toll Free: (866) 633-5770 info at torahinmotion.org www.torahinmotion.org The source material for this talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/sites/default/files/podcast/matzah_thick_thin_sources.pdf To whet your appetite about this talk, see the second source about finding moldy bread on Pesach in the above pdf file. YL Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky 1 Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.torahinmotion.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 06:17:26 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 13:17:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? A. Shulchan Aruch (451:26) writes that glass does not absorb and therefore does not need to be kashered. However, Rama (Orach Chaim 451:26) writes that the minhag of Ashkenazim is that glass that had been used with hot chametz may not be used on Pesach even if it was kashered. There are two reasons given for this. One reason is because we compare glass, which is made from sand, to cheres (earthenware), which is made from clay. Just as cheres cannot be kashered, likewise glass may not be kashered. The other reason is because we are concerned that one might not kasher glass properly for fear it might crack. Chayei Adam 125:22 writes that if it is difficult to purchase new drinking glasses for Pesach, glasses, which are used primarily for cold drinks, may be kashered with hagalah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 17 05:12:53 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:12:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance (e.g. distancing to try to save lives rather than to meet technical distance criteria) Thoughts on whether this is a common issue? I guess the other side is not looking at areas outside of ritual as being halachic issues? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at mail.gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:29:35 2021 From: jmeisner at mail.gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:29:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... This is a point that has been made often, even outside of the context of the frum community (Zeynep Tufekci has a number of good articles providing data points): that the fixation with hard rules such as 6 feet and 15 minutes rather than broad principles that could be intelligently applied to specific situations (such as Japan's three C's of avoiding close contact, crowded places, and closed spaces) and a tendency for experts (or politicians, perhaps) to take hold of false certainty (l'hakeil ul'hachmir) rather than a nuance born of an honest acknowledgement of how little we knew are among the greatest systemic failures of the Western COVID response. From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 17 16:05:11 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> References: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210317230511.GH19872@aishdas.org> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... I used a different metaphor in the opening of Widen Your Tent, that of an apprentice to an overly methofical carpenter. (Since it's a book about the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher, I called this chapter, "The Introduction to the Introduction".) The carpenter teaches his apprentice one skill at a time, mastering each in order before moving on to the next. So the young lad learns how to use a hammer, learning how to drive the nail in, straight and true, in just a few blows. Then he is introduced to the screwdriver, in all its variants. And when he learns how to screw into any wood without stripping the threads or the head of a Phillips screwdriver, they move on the trade's various saws. And so on through the whole toolset. In fact, the master teaches his apprentice multiple opinions about proper technique, and even ways to use the tools according to various opinions of how to maximize success at the same time. And then, as they just complete practicing a few ways of joining corners, the master, sadly, dies, leaving the student knowing everything about woodwork, but with only a layman's knowledge of the construction of a cabinet, table, or chair. Or how to build shelves that can support the weight of a library of books, and the like. And the apprentice is even further from any knowledge of how to express himself artistically, such as through detailed woodworking." This problem is worse than the forest vs. the trees. It's knowing how to walk (the "halakh" of halakhah) and not knowing where to go (having a derekh). If you miss the forest for the trees, at least you have trees. If you don't know how to define the goals halakhah are to help you reach in a way that works for you, you could walk the wrong direction. Rav Chananel bar Papa said: What is meant by, "Hear, for I will speak princely things, [and my lips will open with what is right]" (Mishlei 8:6)? Words of Torah are compared to a ruler, to tell you that just as a ruler has power of life and death, so too the words of the Torah [have potential for] life or death. As Rava said: To those who go to the right side of it, it is a sam hachaim, a medicine for life; to those who go to its left, it is a sam hamaves, an elixir of death. - Shabbos 88a In addition to creating a culture where people don't bother thinking about what all the CoVID rules are for, since we're used to just thinking about the rules (to summarize how I heard RJR's point), there is a more direct connection. We've become so obsessed with personal observance, with "frumkeit", that we risk lives in ways that would be unthinkable to true ovedei Hashem. Religion as a literal sam hamaves. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 04:52:56 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 07:52:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Selling Chometz on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In a regular year, Erev Pesach (for those who sell their chometz) is rather simple. For the early morning, we can do whatever we want with our chometz, including eating it, and doing business with it. At a certain point, we must stop eating it, and shortly thereafter, the rav sells all the chometz that we've set aside to a non-Jew. This year, the rav will obviously do this business with the non-Jew before Shabbos; it is a regular business transaction, and all the papers must be signed etc etc etc before Shabbos begins. But exactly when is this kinyan chal? Exactly when is the ownership transferred, and when does the rental of the storage space begin? My point is this thread is to suggest that each person should check with their rav to find out the answer. Perhaps there are ways to do all the paperwork etc before Shabbos, yet have it not take effect until a certain time on Shabbos morning. That would be very convenient. But if it all takes effect on Erev Shabbos, then there are several practical ramifications that people might not realize, especially for those who have reserved some chometz to be eaten on Shabbos. If the sale has already taken place on Erev Shabbos, then all my chometz MUST be gotten rid of on Shabbos morning. If the challah was too large for everyone to eat, I do not have the option of putting the remainder with the chometz to be sold. The sale already took place, and this chometz will remain mine. My only options are to eat it, or do some other form of biur. On the flip side, I also don't have the option of retrieving something from the "chometz to be sold" area. In a normal year, if it is Erev Pesach morning and there is an item in the "to be sold" area that I want to eat, there's no problem eating it. But this year, if the sale already took place on Erev Shabbos, then it is too late. Even entering that area would be a violation of the rental agreement. So if you're planning to sell your chometz this year, please ask your rav when the sale takes effect. Or show me where my logic is mistaken. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 10:14:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non- > compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing > the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the > letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit > of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. > claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than > learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance ... If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz sale contract..." cite: https://collive.com/rabbis-decide-to-unilateraly-sell-chometz-of-europes-jews/ I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. But this is an entirely different case. I appreciate the rabbis' desire to minimize the violations of these tinolos shenishbu. But it seems to me that this mechira would have the effect of totally circumventing the entire halacha of Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach. Details would need to be studied (like the status of chametz that a store acquires during Pesach) but on the simple face of it, this mechira would allow any of us to shop anywhere in chu"l after Pesach (at least b'dieved). The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law says not. When a Jew does melacha on Shabbos, and I want to get hanaah from it, halacha makes distinctions whether the melacha was done b'shogeg or b'meizid. Similar distinctions could have been applied to Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach, but instead, Chazal chose to legislate a boycott, in the hopes that these Jews would mend their ways. CONCLUSION AND DISCLAIMER: I am NOT suggesting that these rabanim are wrong. It is their job to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of such an idea. All I'm saying is that it seems to be a great example of how an implementation of the Letter might go very much against the Spirit. (And if it turns out that this article didn't get the story right, it's still an example of how Letter and Spirit *might* conflict.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 19 09:31:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:31:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? A. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 463:3) rules that flour made from roasted wheat kernels may not be mixed with water on Pesach. Even though wheat that is fully roasted cannot become chometz, we are concerned that perhaps some kernels were not properly roasted, and subsequently, the flour might become chometz when mixed with water. The same concern applies to matzah with flour on its surface. It is forbidden to mix such matzah with water because the flour may not be fully baked and would be susceptible to becoming chometz (MB 463:8). Where there is no perceptible flour in or on the matzah, is there a concern that some of the dough may not have been thoroughly mixed, and within the matzah there may be raw flour that was not fully baked? There are two different customs; Mishnah Berurah (458:4) notes that there are anshei ma?aseh, scrupulous individuals, who act stringently and do not allow matzah to come in contact with water, as perhaps it may contain unbaked flour. Many Chassidim have this custom. However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. Shaarei Teshuva, (OC 460:10) notes that both groups are meritorious. Those who do not eat gebrochts are motivated by yiras shomayim (fear of heaven), lest they inadvertently transgress the laws of Pesach. The ones who are lenient are concerned that not eating gebrochts will limit their simchas (joy of) Yom Tov. Shaarei Teshuva concludes: ?Both groups are pursuing paths for the sake of Heaven, and I declare: And Your people are entirely righteous (Yeshaya 60:21).? I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. " YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Fri Mar 19 05:19:02 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:19:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday Message-ID: <0d4301d71cba$0c5d12c0$25173840$@touchlogic.com> Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Mar 21 14:45:42 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:45:42 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 21, 2021 06:06:56 pm Message-ID: <16163811420.61bcacf5f.47748@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is > ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? > I think you need to clarify this common belief, before you ask the question. The belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may shower on Friday, to prepare for Shabbath, for yourself. Rather, the belief is that public aveluth, on Shabbath, spoils the mood, for others. If other people can notice that you have not showered, then your aveluth is intruding into the public space. If you smell like roses, the belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may nevertheless shower because you feel better when you do. It's not about you. It is the same logic that would allow you to stay (according to some opinions) after the xuppa at your daughter's wedding, if you are in aveluth -- not because you are allowed to celebrate her wedding, but because your absence would reduce her celebration. Of course, this hetter does not apply to weddings where there is a mexitza between the men and the women, because then your daughter cannot know that you are there anyway. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 07:22:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:22:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? A. The second cup of wine at the seder is filled after karpas so that Maggid (the central portion of the Haggadah) will be recited over the cup of wine. The Mishnah Berurah writes that after filling the cup, it is inappropriate to drink a separate cup of wine (Be?ur Halachah 473:3 s.v. Harishus). Both Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichos Shlomo, Hil. Pesach 9:34) and Rav Elyashiv (Shevus Yitzchok, Pesach 9:3) maintain that only wine is restricted, but in cases of necessity, one is permitted to drink water or coffee. Rav Elyashiv explains that unless there is a pressing need, even water should be avoided because the Haggadah should be recited with a sense of awe and reverence (see Mishnah Berurah 473:71). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 10:37:33 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:37:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322173733.GB27896@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 01:14:47PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." It's not really the Spirit vs the Letter of the Law, which is a Pauline concept. It's how much conformance to the spirit of the law are we obligated to obey beyond its letter. > I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even > without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for > people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. I would think because they are unlikely to get hana'ah from the chameitz, and therefore it's a case of zokhin le'adam shelo befanav. Here we would have to argue that consuming stolen chameitz is less than an issur than owning and consuming chameitz. And enough of a clear advantage that you can invoke "zokhin le'adam". So, I don't see: > The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law > says not. Because I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the da'as of the maqneh. So I would have argued the reverse: the spirit of the idea of no Jews owning chameitz on Pesach says it's a great idea, but it seems to me it would be the letter of the law that says it's impossible. As you phrased things, and you feel the halakhos of mechirah are met, there is a spirit of the law not being violated -- he shouln't want to own chameitz. I mean, this is far gentler than "kofin oso af al pi she'omer 'Rotzeh ani!'" I am wondering if there is an "al pi nistar" that is being addressed with even the flimsiest excuse of a sale. (While not a Chabad group, founder R Menachem Margolin and most (? all?) of the other members of RCE and EJA are Lubavitcher Chassidim. So, when I don't understand what they're doing al pi nigleh, I wonder if they have some al pi nistar motive.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp, http://www.aishdas.org/asp And the Torah, its light. Author: Widen Your Tent - based on Mishlei 6:2 - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 09:55:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 12:55:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322165547.GA27896@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:20:30AM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done > until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles > be lit and the seder begin. This is generally what one hears as pesaq. And I understand warning people not to forget that melakhah is prohibited, even for the seder. (The RBSO also had to remind us that melakhah is prohibited even for the Miskan.) But I don't get reason for saying no hakhanah. I would think that since the seder (or any se'udas Yom Tov) is a devar mitzvah, a shevus, such as hakhanah, would be allowed during bein hashemashos. (Assuming no melakhah is involved.) I found some sources when we discussed this back in v33n46. https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n046.shtml#01 The Rambam (Shabbos 254:10), MB 211:28, 30, AhS OC 261:11 (who allows "lidevar mitzvah o tzorekh harbei", arguably not delaying the seder is both.) So I don't know why "everyone" bans setting the table, getting the pillows and kitls out, etc..., until tzeis. It seems to me that the MB and AhS would agree you could start at sheqi'ah. Of course, I'm no poseiq. Just wondering about the gap between what I learned and the generally repeated pesaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow http://www.aishdas.org/asp man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries Author: Widen Your Tent about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 22 14:57:33 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:57:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2205c312-d18c-b963-6a89-e4de0bf1661e@sero.name> On 19/3/21 12:31 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., > citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not > /halachicaly/ mandated, Of course it isn't. Literally nobody claims it is. So what does your citation achieve? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 14:58:13 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 21:58:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] cRc Kashrus Alerts In-Reply-To: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> References: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> Message-ID: ________________________________ Tevilas Keilim Update Having trouble reading this email? View it in your browser.<{{onlineview()}}> [KASHRUTH ALERT HEADER] March 22, 2021 Last year, due to COVID-19 restrictions, consumers who were unable to tovel their new keilim (utensils) before Pesach were advised to make them ownerless (mafkir) to exempt them from tevilah. This was a special leniency due to COVID-19 when the local mikvaos were closed. This year, Boruch Hashem. those restrictions have been lifted as the mikvaos are open and have been deemed safe to use. Accordingly, before using those keilim which were made ownerless last year, one should ?reacquire? them by picking them up and then tovel them (with a bracha, if required). Anyone who is still unable to arrange for the tevila of their kelim due to exigent circumstances should be in touch with us for further instructions. Chag Kasher v'Sameach. ************************************************************************************ TO REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, please send your comment or question to the cRc at info at crcweb.org The cRc?s app is available for the iPhone, Android, Kindle, and BlackBerry 10. For product information see our Web-based Application ASKcRc where kosher consumers can check the kosher status of hechsherim, beverages, liquors, foods, fruits & vegetables, Slurpees, medicines, and more. The information is accessible via a simple search box, and the site is optimized to work on mobile as well as desktop devices. https://ASKcRc.org http://twitter.com/crckosher http://cRcweb.org Chicago Rabbinical Council 2701 W Howard Street Chicago Illinois 60645-1303 United States This email was sent to: llevine at stevens.edu Unsubscribe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 22 15:39:14 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:39:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 16:35:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:35:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder Message-ID: I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of things about the seder. I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. The following is from his Introduction to his Shiurim on the Haggadah: >From my earliest youth, 1 remember that children would ask each other on the first morning of Pesach, "How long did your Seder take?" This was true in my youth, and it is still the case today. If the children were to ask me this now, 1 would answer them, "I made sure to eat the afikoman before chatzos (midnight)." According to some poskim, even the recitation of Halle[ should be completed before chatzos. I must point out that the present-day practice in which all the children read from the prepared sheets they received in school is not exactly in accordance with the mitzvah of and you shall tell to your children, etc. (ibid.). The children have initiated a new mitzvah of and you shall tell to your father and mother, which makes it very challenging to perform the mitzvah of achilas matzah and certainly the achilas a{zkoman - before chatzos. YL YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 20:06:44 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:06:44 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . I wrote about an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." R' Micha Berger wrote: > I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the > da'as of the maqneh. A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak, I'm not going to be the one who says that the Rabbanut is wrong for choosing to do it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 23 06:38:53 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:38:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Preparing for the Seder This Year Message-ID: The following is from today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. Being that this year Shabbos is Erev Pesach when should the preparation of the shank bone, charoses, marror, roasted egg, salt water and checking the romaine lettuce take place? A. Seder preparations should be done on Friday, as it is prohibited to prepare on Shabbos for the next day. (This is known as hachana. One may not even nap on Shabbos and say, ?I am resting now to be alert at the Seder?. See M.B. 290.4.) While it would be permitted to prepare some of these items on Saturday night, it would delay the start of the Seder. Much of the seder focuses on the children, and it is important to start the seder as soon as possible before the children fall asleep (M.B.482.1). According to the Vilna Gaon, horseradish should always be grated immediately before the seder so that it will be sharp. Others say it should be grated before Shabbos and stored in a sealed jar to maintain the sharpness as much as possible. If one forgot to prepare horseradish before Shabbos, the grating should preferably be done with a shinui (deviation, such as grating on a paper towel or turning the grater upside down). Romaine lettuce that requires checking for infestation should be checked before Shabbos. One must be careful to drain the lettuce very well. Otherwise, water might accumulate in the bags, and any parts of the lettuce that soaks in water for more than twenty-four hours may not be used for maror (M.B. 473.38). If salt water was not prepared in advance, it can made on Yom Tov (implication of Mishna Berurah 473:21), though some recommend using a shinui by putting the water in the vessel before the salt (Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 118:4). If charoses was not made before Shabbos, the fruit may be grated on Yom Tov, but the nuts should be prepared with a shinui (Shemiras Shabbos Kihilchoso 7:4) (such as crushing in a bag). No deviation is needed when adding the wine (see M.B.495:8). It is preferable to roast the shank bone and egg before Shabbos. If roasted on Yom Tov, they must be eaten on that day of Yom Tov. Since one may not eat roasted meat or chicken at the seder, the shank bone that was prepared Saturday night must be eaten at the Sunday daytime meal (MB 473:32). In general, one may not prepare food on the first day of Yom Tov if the intention is to consume it on the second day or after Yom Tov. (This would constitute hachana, which is forbidden.) As such, another shank bone and egg will have to be roasted Sunday night for the second seder, and the same is true for the preparation of marror, charoses and salt water. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 23 06:58:06 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:58:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 00:59, Prof. L. Levine wrote: > I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck > the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in > the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to > expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. > Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of > things about the seder. > > I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. ... I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the 14th Nissan). This would suggest short Sedarim. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:29:12 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:29:12 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323142912.GC31103@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:06:44PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi > Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef > Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or > were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that > they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). > So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for > Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak... I did't have that big of a problem with the idea of invoking ZlASbF, where the person wasn't going to get hana'ah from the chameitz. Like the people going to RYEH last minute before Pesach. Or my example of someone in a coma. But if people are alive and well and keeping their chameitz around and don't even know it is sold, it isn't a pure zekhus to sell it. They want their chameitz to use it. So, I don't think this precedent addresses my discomfort with the idea. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element http://www.aishdas.org/asp in us could exist without the human element Author: Widen Your Tent or vice versa. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:57:37 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:57:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323145736.GD31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 01:58:06PM +0000, allan.engel at gmail.com wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night... Assuming they held like R Elazar ben Azariah and like R Eliezer in the two machloqesin discussed on Berakhos 9a. R Aqiva and R Yehoshua hold the mitzvah is until the morning. (The first machloqes is about the word "boqer", the second is how to parse Devarim 16:6 -- do you eat kevo hasemesh (sunset to chatzos), or until mo'eid tzesekha miMitzrayim?) Stam Mishnah Pesachim 10:9 talks about the pesach being metamei the hands after chatzos, because that's when it becomes nosar (TY vilna 71b, TB 120b). Zevachim 37a states that this mishnah is according to R Aqiva. The Rambam (Hil' Qorban Pesach 8:15) says the Pesach is only eaten until midnight kedai leharchiq min ha'aveirah, and deOraisa it's okay all night. So he hold like R Aqiva and R Yehoshua, with the kelal we get from R Gamliel in 1:1 that any mitzvah that is permitted all night deOraisa has a derabbanan making it lekhatchilah before chatzos, leharciq min ha'aveirah. So, whether they were very careful with a safe estimate or chatzos-ish was good enough depended on who they held like. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 23 07:46:28 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:46:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: From a letter to the editor: Although abortion is not necessarily considered to be an act of murder, it is nonetheless prohibited in accordance with Halakha (Jewish law). The statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect, as well. Any modern ruling is based on our teachings that go back to our receiving the Torah at Mount Sinai. The laws that we follow are g-d given and not something that the Jewish people came up with in their 40 years in the desert. The author clearly has no grasp on our true heritage and unfortunately feels that she can opine in an area where she has no expertise. Me- I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? CKVS Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 08:55:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:55:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323155513.GE31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 02:46:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness > of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," > is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a > way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) > that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? There are cases where halakhah grows to cover new situations. In many of them we could have extrapolated very different pesaqim for the new from what exists already. Like, in the case of electricity on Shabbos. So, halakhah grows. Changes in facts on the ground don't drive an "evolution" of halakhah. They're really just a non-obvious case of the above. The whole point of such changes isn't that we switched sides on a machloqes, but that the side chosen in the past doesn't work in the new case. So we need to grow new halakhah for the new situation. Even if on most levels it feels like we're doing the same thing but with a new pesaq. Like educable deaf-mutes. We didn't do away with din cheireish. And anyone uneducable because they can neither hear nor talk would qualify. We just don't have too many people like that any more. (RHS, for example, includes the pesi, the sane but intellectually diabled, as cheireish not shoteh. With implications (e.g.) WRT gittin after brain injury.) And then there are cases of actual evolution, where we are following new pesaqim. Halakhah evolves but according kelalei pesaq. Of course, kelalei pesaq are themselves subject to pesaqim, so they could evolve as well. And precedent isn't the only kelal in pesaq. Or, if precedent shifts unconsciously, mimetically. Like an increase in the number of people who just take it for granted that they should look to the soft-stringencies (baal nefesh yachmir and such) in the MB for their rulings rather than the MB's pesaqim or the AhS's. Or RMF grows in esteem, and LORs shift from R Henkin's pesaqim to spending more time with IM. The publishing (and new editions) of Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhasa similarly changed which pesaqim the LOR spends time analyzing, and which get accepted. So, rulings can in principle change. That was a very legal description. R/Dr Moshe Koppel convinced me of a very Rupture-and-Reconstruction-esque understanding of how halakhah evolves, in which dinim are more like laws of a language. So, at Har Sinai, we didn't need as many pesaqim. We were fully emersed in the halachic language, and had a native speaker's ear for what sounds right. And a good poet, a navi, can know just how and when the rules can be occasionally bent or even more rarely broken. But as we lose that culture we become more like English as a second language students, who need more rules. (And we have no idea what's valid poetic license.) And so, as we lose culture halakhah gains formality and rigidity. A steady shift from a mimetic "sounds right" to a textual law book. Until a rupture can cause a major step in this progression. Moshe dies, laws are lost, Osniel ben Kenaz is meyaseid them again. Numerous dinim were similarly codified by Anshei Keneses haGedolah, this is R/Dr Koppel's take on shakhechum vechazar veyasdum. And then we needed a mishnah, an actual structured code to memorize. Then shas, then writing them down... then rishonim wrote codes, and to add my own example -- the way the AhS and then MB were embraced. That is a kind of evolution where the range of valid practices narrow for a situation that didn't change nor did we learn more about the situation. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:28:39 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:28:39 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Evolved" implies an improvement, to a form more adapted to survival and therefore better. The Jewish view of the way halacha has changed over the years is one of devolution; both when we become more lenient because we don't care as much, and when we become stricter because we need it to correct our tendency to leniency, or because we have lost the knowledge on which our ancestors' leniency depended ("ein anu beki'in"). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:17:14 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:17:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f754e36-46c3-705d-e762-e28417b4da88@sero.name> On 23/3/21 9:58 am, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa > (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the > 14th Nissan). Not necessarily. Sinch chatzos is only a geder to prevent it running past dawn, people may have been generous in calculating it, knowing that if they ran over it by a little it was no big deal. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 23 10:48:22 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:48:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat. I turned to Rabbi Eli Gersten who wrtites the OU's Halacha Yomis Column this very question and I forward his answer with his permission. Question: Regarding: Halacha Yomis - Prepping The Seder Plate Since Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat, why can't Hakhanot for the Seder be done on Shabbat? Yiyasher Kochacha for your informative and lucid articles Chak Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh Answer: Yes, and No. See below what the Chayei Adam [Hilkhot Shabbat U-Moadim, sec. 153:6] writes about being maichen on Shabbos or Yomtov for a davar Mitzvah. There are many rules. Only for a dvar mitzvah, and even then only partial hachana, and done with a shinuy, and not close to end of Shabbos, so it is not obvious... ??? ??? ??? ?-? (????? ??? ???????) ??? ??? ???? ? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????. ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ??????? ???? ???, ??? ????. ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ???? (????? ?? ??? ???? ?"? ???? ???' ??"? ???? ?' ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?' ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?"? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????"? ????? ???? ?? ?' ?"? ????? ?? ????? ??' ??"? ?? ?????? ??' ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??"?), ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????. ??? ???? ?????"? ????? ??"? ??"? ???"? ????? ????? ??????? ????, ?? ??????? ????. ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????. ????? ??? ????? ??"? ?? ???? ??' ???? ??"? ?"?. ???? ?? ??"? ??"? ?? ??"? ????? ????? ??"? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????. ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???, ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ?? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????, ??? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????, ?? ????. ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????. ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????. Rabbi Eli Gersten Rabbinic Coordinator 212-613-8222-phone Gerstene at ou.org Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 16:47:46 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323234746.GC24196@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 05:48:22PM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From > Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often > permitted on Shabbat. I specifically brought up starting at sheqei'ah instead of waiting for tzeis because it then involves two factors and there is STRONG consensus to allow: shevus bein hashemeshos, and lidevar mitzvah. No new sources since last time. Just pointing out that The answer from R Eli Gersten of OU's Halacha Yomis doesn't actually help me understand why we cannot start setting the seder table at sheqi'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When we are no longer able to change a situation http://www.aishdas.org/asp -- just think of an incurable disease such as Author: Widen Your Tent inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF ourselves. - Victor Frankl (MSfM) From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Tue Mar 23 19:35:46 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 02:35:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: <278FC3E1-165C-4DFE-89FF-DA7AD035BF6B@tenzerlunin.com> "I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts?? My thought is that Jewish law is too complex to sum up in a letter to the editor even if everyone reading it is Orthodox. And, of course, Jews who are not Orthodox have a different view of Jewish law. Thus, to say in a letter to the editor that "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so? is correct or incorrect is an exercise of futility. Joseph From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:54:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:54:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Egg Matza on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In last week's issue of Ami magazine (4 Nisan, #510) Rabbi Moshe Taub's column is about Shabbos Erev Pesach. On page 162, he gives ideas for how to do the seudos, writing: "B. Use egg matzah. This would only work for Ashkenazim,..." Why would this not work for Sefaradim? Do they hold that egg matza is not pas habaa bkisnin? Do they hold that Pas habaa bkisnin remains mezonos even when one is kovea seuda on it? Maybe it's just not practical to eat 3-4 kebtitzos of it. Any other ideas? thanks Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 06:38:09 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:38:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Some people do not want to have any chametz on the table Shabbos erev Pesach. Can kosher for Pesach egg matzos be used for lechem mishneh? A. Egg matzah is in the category of pas ha?ba b?kisnin (bread-like items that are usually eaten for a snack). Ordinarily, if one eats egg matzah the bracha is borei minai mezonos, unless it is part of a substantial meal. Nonetheless, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe OC 1:155) writes that if egg matzah is used for lechem Mishnah for a Shabbos meal, the bracha is hamotzi. One should make sure to eat at least a kibaiya (a little more than 2 fl. oz) of egg matzah, in addition to other foods that will be served at the meal. According to many opinions egg matzah can only be eaten as long as chometz can be consumed, which is the end of the fourth hour. The Rema (OC 444:1) writes that in our communities, egg matzah is not eaten on Pesach. Therefore, on erev Pesach one should fulfill shalosh seudos with fruit. The implication of Rema is that egg matzah may not be eaten on erev Pesach in the afternoon. However, the Chok Yaakov (444:1) writes that it is possible that the Rema only meant that one is not required to find egg matzah for Shalosh Seudos since it was uncommon in their communities, but if one had egg matzah it may be eaten. The Sharei Teshuva (444:2) as well writes that there is a basis to be lenient. Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doniels at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:30:39 2021 From: doniels at gmail.com (Danny Schoemann) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:30:39 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months Message-ID: Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles with the source of the name Marcheshvan. Online at https://www.sefaria.org.il/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Even_HaEzer.126.17 (Interestingly enough, in 126:19 he says there's a Kometz under these months, Nison, Iyor, Sivon, Marcheshvon, Shvot, Ador.) Kol Tuv - Danny On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, R' Brent Kaufman wrote: >> Now that the ancient pantheons of gods have been brought up, can anyone >> give an explanation for why the we name our months after Babylonian gods? RMB replied: > Of the ones we know translations for, only Tammuz. Warach Dumuzu means "the month of [the god] Tammuz". > This month, Warach Samnu, which becomes Marcheshvan when mem and yud/vav swap during the borrowing, simply means "8th month". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 03:39:37 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:39:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement Message-ID: The fact it that the Shabbatzi Tzvi movement swept the Jewish world. Many important rabbonim became his followers. For example, see my article "Recife - The First Jewish Community in the New World" The Jewish Press, June 3, 2005, page 32. Glimpses into American Jewish History Part 3. The concluding paragraph there is *After finishing this article I discovered that Rabbi Isaac Aboab da Fonseca was apparently a follower of Shabbtai Tzvi. (See www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. jsp?artid=344&letter=A#810, The Sabbatean Prophets by Matt Goldish page 33, and Sabbatai Sevi by Gershom Scholem, pages 520-522.) To put it mildly, I was shocked, given the greatness of Rabbi Aboab. However, it made me realize how strong the messianic movement in the 17th century must have been to gain adherents of Rabbi Aboab`s caliber. Jacob Sasportas was one of the most violent antagonists of the Shabbethaian movement; he wrote many letters to various communities in Europe, Asia, and Africa, exhorting them to unmask the impostors and to warn the people against them. However, I do not believe that he was considered a gadol by many. So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 10:52:04 2021 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:52:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) In-Reply-To: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> References: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. For example, at https://baisdovyosef.com/2861-a-clean-slate-on-clean-hands/ Rabbi Bartfeld quotes him as stringent on foaming soap. My chevrusa asked Rabbi Felder from Toronto to ask him about this, and he said he is mattir whipped cream from a can on Shabbos /v'harei ha'devarim kal va'chomer/. KT, CKvS, YGB On 3/22/2021 6:39 PM, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%20all.doc?dl=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Avodah mailing list > Avodah at lists.aishdas.org > http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:30:10 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:30:10 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:39:37AM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for him. So, those who wanted to believe had who to rely on. (Kind of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it actually is cosidered "a thing".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Circumstances don't make a person, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they reveal a person. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:34:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:34:22 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193422.GB16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 05:30:39PM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote: > Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles > with the source of the name Marcheshvan. It his conclusion of that discussion says that he considers these explanations derashos, because RYME writes "Amnam be'eemes ein doreshin besheimos". So, I don't think he is repeating them as possible sources as much as derashos some find meaningful. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 13:31:29 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:31:29 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 03:30 PM 3/24/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > >There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei >hador. Didn't help. There was not a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Jacob Sasportas was the one who had the courage to come out against the movement. He was essentially a loan voice. Others either went along with the movement or said nothing. R. Eybeschutz was himself suspected of being a follower of ST. in fact, I believe that his son outwardly became a follower. Whether R. Eybeschutz was indeed a follower was never fully determined. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 17:10:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] R. Eybeschutz and ST In-Reply-To: <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1B.B0.11863.285DB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:24 PM 3/24/2021, micha at aishdas.org wrote: >I grew up living around the corner from the home of R SZ Leiman. He davened >(davens?) in the shteibl where my father sheyichyeh was president. I kind of >heard this story before, in a lot more detail. Which is why my post got >written to begin with. > >You are mistaken. The RYE vs RYE fight was one of many. Keep in mind that Rabbi Eybeschutz was born in 1690, long after Shabbatai Tzvi converted to Islam. Indeed ST died in 1676. Hence he could not have been involved in any discussion about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. Rabbi Yaakov Emden was born in 1697, so he also could not have been involved in any discussions about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz Already in Prague 1724, he was suspected of being a Sabbatean. He even got up on Yom Kippur to denounce the Sabbatean movement, but he remained suspected.[2] Therefore, In 1736, Rav Eybeschutz was only appointed dayan of Prague and not chief rabbi. He became rabbi of Metz in 1741. In 1750, he was elected rabbi of the "Three Communities:" Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbek. In July 1725, the Ashkenazic beit din of Amsterdam issued a ban of excommunication on the entire Sabbatian sect (kat ha-ma?aminim). Writings of Sabbatian nature found by the beit Din at that time were attributed to Rav Eybeschutz [3] In early September, similar excommunication proclamations were issued by the batei din of Frankfurt and the triple community of Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbeck. The three bans were printed and circulated in other Jewish communities throughout Europe.[4] Rabbi Ezekiel Katzenellenbogen, the chief rabbi of the Triple Community [5] was unwilling to attack Rav Eybesch?tz publicly, mentioning that ?greater than him have fallen and crumbled? and that ?there is nothing we can do to him? [6] However, Rabbi Katzenelenbogen stated that one of the texts found by the Amsterdam beit din "Va-Avo ha-Yom el ha-Ayyin? was authored by Rav Jonathan Eybesch?tz and declared that the all copies of the work that were in circulation should be immediately burned. [7]As a result of Rav Eybeschutz and other rabbis in Prague formulating a new (and different) ban against Sabbatianism shortly after the other bans were published, his reputation was restored and Rav Eybeschutz was regarded as having been totally vindicated.[8] The issue was to arise again, albeit tangentially, in the 1751 dispute between Rav Emden and Rav Eybeschutz. Sabbatian controversy Rav Eybesch?tz again became suspected of harboring secret Sabbatean beliefs because of a dispute that arose concerning the amulets which he was suspected of issuing. It was alleged that these amulets recognized the Messianic claims of Sabbatai Zevi.[9] The controversy started when Rav Yaakov Emden found serious connections between the Kabbalistic and homiletic writings of Rav Eybeschutz with those of the known Sabbatean Judah Leib Prossnitz, whom Rav Eybesch?tz knew from his days in Prossnitz.[2] Rabbi Jacob Emden accused him of heresy.[9] The majority of the rabbis in Poland, Moravia, and Bohemia, as well as the leaders of the Three Communities supported Rav Eybesch?tz: the accusation was "utterly incredible"?in 1725, Rav Eybesch?tz was among the Prague rabbis who excommunicated the Sabbateans. Others suggest that the Rabbis issued this ruling because they feared the repercussions if their leading figure, Rav Eybesch?tz, was found to be a Sabbatean. Rabbi Jacob Emden suggests that the rabbis decided against attacking Eybeschutz out of a reluctance to offend his powerful family and a fear of rich supporters of his living in their communities [10] The recent discovery of notarial copies of the actual amulets found in Metz and copying the amulets written by Rav Eyebeschutz support Rav Emden's view that these are Sabbatean writings.[11] In 1752, the controversy between Rav Emden and Rav Eybesch?tz raged.Clashes between opposing supporters occurred in the streets drawing the attention of the secular authorities.[12] Rav Emden fled. The controversy was heard by both the Senate of Hamburg and by the Royal Court of Denmark. The Hamburg Senate quickly found in favour of Rav Eybeschutz.[13] The King of Denmark asked Rav Eybeschutz to answer a number of questions about the amulets.Conflicting testimony was put forward and the matter remained officially unresolved[14] although the court imposed fines on both parties for civil unrest and ordered that Rav Emden be allowed to return to Altona.[15] At this point Rav Eybeschutz was defended by Carl Anton, a convert to Christianity, but a former disciple of Rav Eybesch?tz.[16] Rav Emden refused to accept the outcome and sent out vicious pamphlets attacking Rav Eybeschutz.[17] Rav Eyebeschutz was re-elected as Chief Rabbi. In December of that year, the Hamburg Senate rejected both the King's decision and the election result. The Senate of Hamburg started an intricate process to determine the powers of Rav Eybesch?tz, and many members of that congregation demanded that he should submit his case to rabbinical authorities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Mar 24 20:30:38 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 23:30:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <018e01d72127$39a11c60$ace35520$@touchlogic.com> RYGB writes.I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. I have personally been present multiple times when Rabbi Bartfeld discusses his questions w RSM. RB often will write them up, and then review his written answer (if complex) with RSM a second time. I can't promise that broken telephone has never occurred, but the process is pretty error free. Offhand I have only found one RB psak that was different than what RSM told me personally (wearing snowshoes where there is no eruv). It is possible that RSM has changed his mind on that issue (it has been 25yrs+ since I asked the original shaylah) As for your question, I personally have discussed whipped cream from a can on Shabbos with RSM and it is true that he is matir, and is also not concerned with the shape (round, T, etc) formed in the whipped cream by the tip either. As for your question from foaming soap, yesh l'tareitz KT, CKvS, MC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Mar 24 10:18:29 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:18:29 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] Correct Spelling Of Foreign Terms In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 24, 2021 02:33:32 pm Message-ID: <16166243090.4D54BC1.92753@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came >> to the Shabbatai Movement? >> > > Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > > There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei > hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for > him. So, those who wanted to believe had who[m] to rely on. (Kind > of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it > actually is co[n]sidered "a thing".) > I don't remember whether I have said this before on this mailing list. If I have, I apologize for the redundancy. The Hebrew words for kimono and sushi are (I am guessing with strong confidence) "kimono" and "sushi". They are foreign terms, describing foreign things, and when we speak Hebrew, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought these terms into our language. (To be more pedantically correct, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought those terms into our language, to the extent that we are able to imitate them. Our ancestors, for example, could not pronounce foreign words that begin with a shva nax, like Platon and specularia and Xshawerosh, but they did the best they could.) The people who believe in Das Torah do not pronounce the word with a pharyngeal, or even a glottal, stop. They pronounce it "Das Torah". And, since Das Torah is a foreign concept, that does not exist in traditional Judaism, it should be pronounced the way it is pronounced by the people who brought the term into our language, for the same reason that we pronounce kimono "kimono", and sushi "sushi". And when we write it with the Latin alphabet, we should write the first word with one 'a', not with two, showing the same fidelity to its correct pronunciation that we do with any other foreign word. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 13:44:52 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:44:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: . R' Yitzchok Levine quoted the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis <<< Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. >>> I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? Do other ingredients affect this? I have always presumed that all kinds of Matza Ashira are a subset of Pas Habaa Bkisnin, excluding any and all Chometz. In other words, flour and whatever you want except water. Am I mistaken? Is the definition more complicated than that? (Note: I was surprised to find such a wide variety of recipes for egg matza. (We had a large crowd on Erev Pesach, so I bought 4 different boxes so people could sample the different flavors.) Streit's has apple cider and eggs. Aviv Egg Matzah has apple juice, egg, and sugar. Aviv Egg & Onion has an unnamed "pure fruit juice" with sugar, onion powder and egg. Manischewitz contains "pure apple or grape juice" and eggs.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 30 18:49:03 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:49:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30/3/21 4:44 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah > ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it > matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? According to the Rambam, 6:5, Matza is only defined as Ashira if it's made with wine, oil, honey, or milk, but if it's made with Mei Perot it's still Lechem Oni. https://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3506.htm#6 -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 08:30:05 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] To Atone for All our Sins Message-ID: At the Seder, after Dayenu, we have a paragraph in which Dayenu is summarized. "He took us out of Mitzrayim... and He fed us manna... and He brought us to Har Sinai, etc etc and He built the Beis Habechira for us, to be m'chaper for our avonos." My daughter-in-law asked: Why do we need those last words? Let the list end simply, like Dayenu itself did: "... and He built the Beis Habechira for us [full stop]." Or, if some sort of editorializing is needed, let it be on a positive note: "... where we can be close to Him" or "...where He can dwell among us." But at this point in the Seder, (arguably) the very last words of Maggid, where we have finally completed our trip from Genai to Shevach, and from Yagon to Simcha, why do we sully the waters by mentioning our sins (even if the context is forgiveness)? My only guess is that these words serve as a bookend to Maggid's start ("In the beginning we were idolators"), but that doesn't help much; is this bookend really needed, or even helpful? Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhecht at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 13:11:38 2021 From: rhecht at gmail.com (Rafael Jason Hecht) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:11:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Techeiles and Bal Tosif Message-ID: Does anyone know if there are any issues regarding Bal Tosif when wearing the new Techeiles today? (As an aside, one speaker who will address this issue is R' Chaim Twerski - https://www.techeiles.org/yom-iyun). Thanks and Good Shabbos, Rafi Hecht *rhecht at gmail.com* ------------------------------------------------------- *LinkedIN:* *http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rafihecht* *Facebook:* *http://www.facebook.com/rhecht* *Twitter:* *https://www.twitter.com/#!/rafihecht* *Personal Site:* *www.rafihecht.com* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Jan 3 05:31:30 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2021 08:31:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? Message-ID: At 09:49 PM 1/2/2021 ,R Micha Berger wrote: >The AhS (se'if 4) gives a reason to put a gartl on even if you are >wearing a belt. The pasuq reads "Hakhon liqras E-lokhekha Yisrael". >The gemara (Shabbos 10a) gives examples of such hakhanos. The AhS brings >down this gemara earlier (se'if 1) and refers to it here. > >Putting on a gartl has become a traditional way to prepare oneself to >meet the RBSO, and even if today's fashion makes it rarely necessary >for ein libo ro'eh es ha'erva, the AhS believes the practice should not >be stopped. > >And that's from the Litvisher poseiq known for finding meqoros for >justifying minhag! I would guess that in Litta, gartelach were far more >common than among today's "Litvish". I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off his tie and used it as a gartel for davening. Rav Schwab said, "He should have left his tie on his neck. He already had a separation between his upper and lower body, since he was wearing a belt. Wearing a tie is appropriate for davening" I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should wear them out. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 07:14:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:14:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103151439.GB20407@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 03, 2021 at 08:31:30AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off > his tie and used it as a gartel for davening.... Yes, it could be that dressing fit for a melekh when speaking to the Melekh Malkhei hamlakhim is more important than putting on a gartel if you are already wearing a belt. Not really relevant to whether one should wear a gartel when there is no such trade-off. > I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After > all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their > tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should > wear them out. Mah inyan shemitah eitzel Har Sinai? The MB and AhS are very different books. One of the more spoken about differences is that the MB is a survey of acharonim who post-date the standardized SA page. The MB therefore leans toward clean-slate theory. He doesn't give much weight to centuries of accepted practice. So, the MB could say something about wearing tzitzis out that no one did. (Also, because he tells you the book is a survey of later sefarim, there is no reason to believe he expected people to follow his seifer lemaaseh. And thus it is less surprising that the CC himself didn't always follow what was written there.) The AhS is famous for finding how accepted practice is theoretically sound. (When possible, of course.) If some hold a gartel is necessary and some not, so that both sides are sound pesaqim, the AhS will almost always side with whatever is being done. Thus, the AhS's pesaq is evidence of what Litvaks held, whereas the MB's pesaq isn't. It's a methodology difference between the two works discussed on-list repeatedly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The goal isn't to live forever, http://www.aishdas.org/asp the goal is to create so mething that will. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 3 06:39:18 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 14:39:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Shimon Schwab on Chillul Hashem Message-ID: The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash pages 191 to 193. Note his message to the embezzler! Living in Caius America, the malchus shel chessed, only strengthens the Jew's obligation to create a kiddush Hashem. The Rav taught that every form of chillul Hashem decreases awareness of the Divine presence in this world. If the perpetrator is supposedly an observant Jew or, worse, a so-called Torah scholar, then the offense is that much greater. He would ask: "How can a person who has cheated his neighbor or defrauded the government have the audacity to stand in front of the congregation and recite Kaddish, a prayer for sanctifying G-d's Name in the world?" The Rav's greatest fear was of a chillul Hashem. On his checks, he never used the title "Rabbi." He told me that he was always concerned that if, G-d forbid, a check were to bounce, "Rabbi" would add to the chillul Hashem. Many years ago, a shameful scandal erupted around a Jewish businessman who was tried for embezzlement. Influential members of the embezzler's community approached Rav Schwab with a plea that he do what he could to save the man from prison. Rav Schwab became extremely agitated. He pointed out that the man's behavior, widely publicized in the media through the printed word and the television screen, had caused a tremendous chillul Hashem; the man had become .a virtual rodef of Kial Yisrael, because Jews everywhere would suffer aniti-Semitism due to his actions. He forthrightly told the visitors that the embezzler deserved to sit in prison for a long time. But he pleaded with them to give the embezzler a message: The m;111 should shave off his beard and take off his yarmulke when appearing i11 court or on television, because by wearing these religious accoutremenh, he would be creating a new chilluf Hashem every day and would be a living disgrace for the Jewish People. In Selected Writings, Rav Schwab wrote extensively on the topic of chilul Hashem: "If one steals from a non-Jew, swears falsely and dies, his death does not atone for his sin because of chillul Hashem (Tosefta Bava Kamma 10). Let us repeat. The profaners and desecrators give us all a rotten name, aiding and abetting our many adversaries and antagonizing our few friends. Therefore, no white-washing, no condoning, no apologizing on behalf of the desecrators. Let us make it clear that anyone who besmirches the sacred Name ceases to be our friend. He has unwittingly defected from our ranks and has joined our antagonists, to make us suffer in his wake. And -noblesse oblige- the more prominent a man in Orthodox Jewish circles, the more obligated he must feel to observe the most painstaking scrupulousness in his dealings with the outside world." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 05:32:03 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 08:32:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Spoiler alert: The reason I'm asking is that I have found some evidence (within Chazal) that a besula *can* become pregnant from her first act. But I don't want to expound on that evidence pointlessly, so I'll come forward only if there really is such a Chazal. Thanks in advance. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 08:36:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 11:36:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai Message-ID: . About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring how authoritative the targumim are. This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the first pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, and in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In my opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that a translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. So I decided to post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear in Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were probably his own. M'inyan l'inyan b'oso inyan... I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer Bereshis (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* translates it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". It's not until Sefer Shemos that Onkelos changes his style. Never again does he leave Ivri as Ivri; we are (or are becoming) a nation, and it seems that Onkelos wants his audience to be able to identify with that nation, by unambiguously translating it as Yehudi. This is true in Shemos 1:15, 1:16, 1:19, 2:6, 2:7, 2:11, 2:13, 3:18, 5:3, 7:16, 9:1, 9:13, and 10:3. (After Parshas Bo, the word Ivri does not appear again in the Torah, with three exceptions: Shmos 21:2, and twice in Devarim 15:12. All three of those are in the context of an Eved Ivri, and Onkelos translates "Ivri" as "Bar Yisrael." I find this to be a very reasonable change: If Onkelos had used either "Ivri" or "Yehudi", then the result would have been ambiguous, possibly meaning an eved who is *owned* by a Jew. By translating as "Bar Yisrael" in those cases, it clearly refers only to an eved who *is* a Jew.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 10:04:47 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 13:04:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Existing practice driving halacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103180447.GA5628@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 07:34:51AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > There's a recurring discussion on the list about the mechanism for > existing Jewish practice being a source for ongoing psak halacha. In view > of which I thought it useful to share an essay by R Hutner in Pachad > Yitzchak on Chanuka, maamar 14. He posits that there are two distinct > drivers of the obligation to maintain any given takana... Isn't this a different topic? Taqanos and gezeiros are dinim derabbanan. And the source of our obligation here would be the source for considering a new halakhah as binding: > the beis din concerned and the extent to which Klal Yisrael accepts and > keeps the takana. Each works independently. But pesaq is an interpretation of existing din. The AhS, noted for his support of minhag Yisrael (as I recently noted yet again on another thread), doesn't pasqen that married women don't have to cover their hair. Instead, he talks about how sad it is that this is the norm, and dicusses the impact of that norm on hilkhos qeri'as Shema. (Seeing a married woman with uncovered hair isn't a distraction when the site is commonplace, and therefore saying Shema in that situation is permitted.) Speaking of the AhS... I have been watching through this round of AhS Yomi, and I don't have a clear picture of his position yet. Sometimes it seems that RYME supports minhag Yisrael for "im lo nevi'im heim" or "she'eiris Yisrael lo yaaseh avlah" type reasons. Collectively, we have siyata diShmaya. At other times it seems RYME is resting on the authority of the centuries of posqim who allowed the practice to flourish. Not directly on the masses, but using common practice as evidence of a silent majority of formal sources. > However there's an important distinction in the mechanism by which > each works. The beis din's takana works through da'as, ie the conscious > decision to enact a practice. In contradistinction, acceptance of any > given practice by klal yisrael works specifically without da'as... Brilliant! The masses are the keepers of mimetic tradition. The second we think about it and plan, it's textual / formal tradition, and requires the expertise of rabbanim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A sick person never rejects a healing procedure http://www.aishdas.org/asp as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what Author: Widen Your Tent other people think when dealing with spiritual - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF matters? - Rav Yisrael Salanter From mgluck at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 16:51:49 2021 From: mgluck at gmail.com (Moshe Y. Gluck) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 19:51:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: R' AM: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? > And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? > > Yevamos 34a. KT, MYG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:07:30 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:07:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fw: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________ The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:23:00 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:23:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? Message-ID: Yesterday my 5-year-old grandson Yisroel Meir Levine ask me the following question. "Zaidie, why do they break a plate and a g;ass at a Chasanah?" A google search yields The breaking of the glass holds multiple meanings. Some say it represents the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Others say it demonstrates that marriage holds sorrow as well as joy and is a representation of the commitment to stand by one another even in hard times I told him about the destruction of the Temple. (I did not give him the cynical reason that I have heard, namely, "This is the last time that the chosson gets to put his foot down!"?) I had no idea why the mothers of the chosson and kallah break a plate as part of making tenaim. A goggle search yields https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/tenaim-the-conditions-of-marriage/ An Old Ceremony From the 12th to the early 19th century, tenaim announced that two families had come to terms on a match between their children. The document setting out their agreement, also called tenaim, would include the dowry and other financial arrangements, the date and time of the huppah [the actual wedding ceremony], and a knas, or penalty, if either party backed out of the deal. After the document was signed and read aloud by an esteemed guest, a piece of crockery was smashed. The origins of this practice are not clear; the most common interpretation is that a shattered dish recalls the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and it is taken to demonstrate that a broken engagement cannot be mended. The broken dish also anticipates the shattered glass that ends the wedding ceremony. In some communities it was customary for all the guests to bring some old piece of crockery to smash on the floor. There is also a tradition that the mothers-in-law-to-be break the plate?a symbolic rending of mother-child ties and an acknowledgment that soon their children will be feeding each other. After the plate breaking, the party began. Does anyone have any more insight into the reason for breaking a plate? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Jan 3 15:49:09 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:49:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0664acd2-f84a-e6f5-b3bb-9355bb8c7e6d@sero.name> On 3/1/21 8:32 am, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me?to that > chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Yes, it is definitely a maamar chazal, found in several places, e.g. Yevamos 34a, Brereshis Raba 45, Yalkut Shimoni Bereshis 16:4. Exceptions include Hagar, Lot's daughters, Tamar, *perhaps* Leah, -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 3 10:45:10 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:45:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? ----------------------------------------------------- ??"? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? (??) ?????? ???' - ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??????: Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Sun Jan 3 22:46:33 2021 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 01:46:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish impact Message-ID: Pirkei Avot Ch. 5 lists several worldwide calamities that God causes or allows to occur in response to Jewish actions or inactions, including ?dever? (plague/pestilence). It is possible that Avot only refers to Israel, not the world, despite the language, ?comes to the world.? Question - is there any source for this ethic being limited to those sins and calamities listed there, or the contrary, for the ethic being extended to sins or calamities not listed there? From sholom at aishdas.org Mon Jan 4 16:27:11 2021 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 19:27:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RAM wrote: > This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the > first > pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, > and > in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In > my > opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to > explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that > a > translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. I don't understand the stira. As I learned it: Onkelos was explaining based on a Torah-mi-Sinai *understanding*. > So I decided to > post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear > in > Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were > probably > his own. I was unaware that folks thought otherwise! > I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It > turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer > Bereshis > (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* > translates > it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". I have a Sefer on Onkelos (Drazin and Wagner) which explains that in Berehis he renders Ivri literally, but when the family grew into a nation (in Shemos) he used the nation's name known among his contemporaries. The authors say that it's Onkelos' tendency to update the names of nations and places as they were contemporaneously known. FWIW, -- Sholom From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 4 22:28:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 06:28:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 5 03:43:38 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 11:43:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" Message-ID: I have received two interesting responses to my grandson Yisrael Meir"s question. Ruth Stern wrote "To cite Rav Schwab. A broken glass can be re-blown and then repaired. China, once broken, can?t be repaired. The glass is broken to remember the Bais Hamikdash which will be restored. The broken plate represents the fact that the agreement, Tenaim, cannot be canceled without a get." Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky (who seems to have written an article about almost everything) wrote https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-law/whats-the-truth-about-breaking-a-glass-at-a-wedding/ may have some information you are looking for. This is a comprehensive article about this topic and is well worth reading. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 04:31:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 07:31:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: . (Many thanks to R' Joel Rich and R' Moshe Gluck for sending me valuable sources on this topic.) Yevamos 34a (near the bottom) states that "ain isha mis'aberes b'biah rishona - a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations." On 35b, the Gemara challenges this idea, pointing out that in Bereshis 38, Tamar got pregnant from first relations, which were with Yehuda. The answer is that Tamar had damaged her besulim beforehand, so that she would be able to conceive from Yehuda. (The Gemara adds that although Er and Onan had relations with Tamar, they deliberately did it in such a way that her besulim was not damaged.) On Bereshis 19:36, Rashi gives a similar answer regarding Lot's daughters. Rashi accepts the principle that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," and so he says that they did something which enabled them to conceive. (Rashi's wording is different from that in Yevamos, so it's not clear to me whether he's describing the same procedure. And for the purposes of this thread, the exact procedure doesn;t really matter anyway.) I would like to ask about another case where a woman seems to have conceived from her first relations, and that woman is Leah Imenu. According to Rashi on Bereshis 49:3, Reuven was conceived from Yaakov Avinu's very first drop of semen. How can this be? Did Leah have relations with someone else prior to marrying Yaakov? Did Yaakov have prior relations with Leah, rendering her non-besulah, without emitting? Those ideas are *not* very appealing. The alternative would be to suggest that she did something medically that enabled her to conceive Reuven, but whereas Tamar and Bnos Lot had strong incentives to get pregnant immediately, I don't know what Leah's motivation might have been. Perhaps she was afraid that Yaakov would divorce her when Rachel became available, so she tried to lock him in by getting pregnant? Before clicking "send", I searched for an answer yet again, and this time I found it. The Ohr Hachayim on this pasuk (Bereshis 49:3) is very long, and near the very end (paragraph beginning "Gam ramaz") he quotes Rashi and writes: "From this you learn that [Yaakov] did not have relations with [her] besulim, rather he removed [her] besulim with a finger, so that he would not waste that drop. So you have learned that even during the act, physical desire did not overpower him, and his act was a totally holy thing." Alternatively, https://mg.alhatorah.org/Parshan/Rid/Bereshit/49.1#m7e0n6 gives the perush of Rav Yeshaya of Trani (Ri"d) on this pasuk, who answers that according to the Yerushalmi, *all* of the Imahos damaged their besulim. He doesn't states where this Yerushalmi can be found, nor does he explain *why* the Imahos would do that, but I suppose it's reasonable to presume that their logic was the same as the Ohr Hachayim has assigned to Yaakov - to prevent wasted seed. Conclusion: I do not know where Chazal got this idea that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," nor have I seen any proof or evidence for it. We do have three stories in the Torah - Lot's daughters, Tamar, and Leah - which *seem* to disprove it, but all three can be understood in a way that does *not* disprove it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Tue Jan 5 07:35:45 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:35:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E.7A.23873.98784FF5@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 08:36 AM 1/5/2021, Joel Rich wrote: >Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom This gemara does not speak about the Chosson breaking a glass under the chuppah. It talks about breaking an expensive vessel to decrease the levity of those at the chasanah. Once the glass (that is not expensive) is broken by the chosson, all sorts of "joy" breaks out to the extent that some rabbonim have called for eliminating this practice. See Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky's article that I posted a link to. YL From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 6 05:19:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:19:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Kibud Av v'Aim Pointers Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin KIBUD AV V?AIM POINTERS A. Unless a parent is knowingly mochel, it is forbidden to refer to your father or mother by their first name (even when requested for identification purposes) without a title of honor preceding the first name, whether or not they are present and whether or not they are alive. When being called to the Torah, one must refer to his father as Reb or Avi Mori. Whenever referring to one?s mother, one can use the title HaIsha or Moras (Yoreh Deah 240:2) B. When honoring parents, very special care and concern must be taken to do it b?sever ponim yofos?pleasantly (Yorah Deah 240:4). The Sefer Chareidim (Mitzvos Asei of the Heart 1:35) and Rav Chaim Shmulevitz (Sichos Mussar 5731:22) both explain that in order to properly perform the mitzvah, one must mentally gain a true appreciation and honor of their parents and literally view them as royalty. Indeed, the Chayei Adom (67:3) known for his succinctness in recording Halacha, writes that the ?Ikar Kibud??the most important [aspect of] Kibud is that ?He should view his parents as GREAT personages and important dignitaries of the land YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 5 15:51:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:51:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210105235158.GA31982@aishdas.org> I was under the impression that Unqelus was credited with recreating through ruach haqodesh the Aramaic translation of the Torah that Ezra had offered. "Shakechum vechazar veyasdum". See Megillah 3a https://www.sefaria.org/Megillah.3a.7-8 I said "Ezra offered because I presumed that the version the gemara refers to from Nechemiah was the same as in Sanhedrin 21b (and the Y-mi Megillah 10a). That the Torah was given originally in Kesav Ivri and Lashon haQodesh, and given again in the days of Ezra in Kesav Ashuris and Lashon Arami. And the Jews selected Ashuris and LhQ. So that Unqelus was chazar veyasad a veritable second giving of the Torah. Which explains why the Tur holds that Shenayim Miqra veEchad Targum means specifically Targum Unqelus. (Not the only shitah, but it does explain the shitah.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From simon.montagu at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 12:09:34 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 22:09:34 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 8:41 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > . > About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring > how authoritative the targumim are. > Since then I've gone into the topic a bit more. Recommended reading: Menahem Kasher "Targum Misinai" in vol. 17 of Tora Shelema (on HebrewBooks starting at https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=51490&st=&pgnum=325) Refael Posen "Targum Misinai" in Sidra 15 ( https://forum.otzar.org/download/file.php?id=32781) and, lehavdil, my own "'Targum Onkelos is from Sinai': Origins and Interpretations of a Tradition', https://www.academia.edu/44849107/_Targum_Onkelos_is_from_Sinai_Origins_and_Interpretations_of_a_Tradition -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mendel at case.edu Wed Jan 6 07:55:50 2021 From: mendel at case.edu (Mendel Singer) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:55:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47b4bce5-c1a8-f300-1f79-5fb268e8cbc0@case.edu> My answer: So when one of the couple drops and breaks a glass or a china plate they can associate it with happy memories and not fight! (Sure, right). ? mendel From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 7 15:57:06 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> On 7/1/21 6:10 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Seforno on Shenmos 4:11: > "Mi sam peh le'adam -- Who gave man a mouth?": > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > > Notice "nasan" is lashon avar, and "sam" -- to give, and what was given > was the natural preconditions that make teva ha'adam, things like a > mouth that speaks. > > It is an interesting circumlocution by the Seforno that seems to say > that a person's biology wasn't created directly, but via processes > Hashem put into place. I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk. The human nature is to have all the necessary natural equipment, physical and neurological, for talking. About sam (past) vs yasim (future), see Malbim. Moshe's hava amina was that a person by default has no power of speech, and Hashem has to put in each person such a power. Therefore since he wasn't given this power it follows that his shlichus in the world doesn't need it. Therefore jobs that do need it, such as leading the people, aren't for him. Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an individual decision by Hashem. But as people are born, "yasum ilem", Hashem makes some of them dumb. It's dumbness that's unnatural, and therefore the result of an individual decision. So Moshe's dumbness, rather than indicating that his shlichus simply doesn't involve speech, actually indicates that his shlichus *does* include dumbness. It's precisely because he is well-known to be dumb that his eloquence on this occasion will be regarded as a miracle and will make people listen to him. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 8 12:57:43 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:57:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created > the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. > Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man > at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi > sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an > individual decision by Hashem.... Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as the thing exists. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sat Jan 9 20:50:34 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 23:50:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <70511e8b-b7ac-5261-ca01-28b581e27dfa@sero.name> On 8/1/21 3:57 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > >> I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created >> the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. > > He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for > humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce > "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. Because he's talking about human nature, not about individual humans. He didn't give humans a "power of speech", He made human nature such that humans can naturally speak. >> Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man >> at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi >> sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an >> individual decision by Hashem.... > > Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad > background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros > implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is > done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as > the thing exists. First of all, the Malbim was not a chassid, so he's not necessarily consistent with the Baal Shem Tov's ideas. And in fact he does not seem to subscribe to the Baal Shem Tov's shita in Hashgacha Pratis. He often writes that the punishment for not doing mitzvos is that Hashgacha Pratis is withdrawn and one is left to the mercy of the random forces of nature. But in this instance there's no contradiction. He's referring to when the decision was/is made that a person should be speaking or dumb. Hashem tells Moshe that He long ago made the decision that human nature would be to be able to speak, so the fact that an individual can speak doesn't mean anything. It's the default human condition. But "yasum ilem", as He creates each individual, He makes certain individuals deviate from the norm and be dumb, and that is always a deliberate decision regarding that individual, and therefore must be meaningful. The fact that each person, whether speaking or dumb, is being constantly created isn't relevant to this point. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 06:08:05 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 14:08:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? A. A general principal in halacha is ?ain bishul achar bishul? (a cooked food cannot be recooked) and it is permissible to reheat cooked food on Shabbos. Nonetheless, there are situations where this does not apply: * Food may not be put on a stove top or in an oven on Shabbos, even if fully cooked, either because it has the appearance of cooking or because one might adjust the flame. This is known as chazara (returning). * According to most opinions, ain bishul achar bishul applies only to solid food and not to liquids. * To qualify for ain bishul achar bishul, the food must be fully cooked. * According to some (Shulchan Aruch OC 318:5), ain bishul achar bishul does not apply to cooking (with liquid) a food that was previously baked or roasted (without liquid) or vice versa. This is because baking and cooking are different modes and doing one after the other may constitute bishul. As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. The Rema rules that one may not even put bread into a kli sheini, a second vessel. (Liquid that was heated on a fire is known as a kli rishon. If that liquid was transferred to another vessel it is referred to as a kli sheini- a second vessel.) However, the Mishnah Berurah (318:47) writes that one may add bread to a kli shelishi (liquid transferred to a third vessel) because the temperature is diminished. Moreover, the Mishnah Berurah (318:45) writes that if a ladle was used, the ladle may be viewed as the kli sheini, and the bowl is treated as a kli shelishi. As such, bread or matzah meal may be added to soup that was placed in a bowl with a ladle. It should be noted that in general it is questionable if raw food may be added to a kli shelishi on Shabbos. Nonetheless, bread may be placed in a kli shelishi because there is a confluence of two uncertainties: a) does cooking occur in a kli shelishi and b) does ain bishul achar bishul apply to a baked food added to a kli rishon? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Jan 11 10:34:15 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 13:34:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <681a1f57-f0e6-eb30-1316-35145df8d4ad@sero.name> However bagels would be OK, since they have already been boiled. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 09:54:54 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 17:54:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning Message-ID: Secular Studies and Torah Learning The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. ?When I was in the illustrious city of Vilna in the presence of the Rav, the light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, the light of the eyes of the exile, the renowned pious one (may Hashem protect and save him) Rav Eliyahu, in the month of Teves 5538 [January 1778], I heard from his holy mouth that according to what a person is lacking in knowledge of the ?other wisdoms,? correspondingly he will be lacking one hundred portions in the wisdom of the Torah, because the Torah and the ?other wisdoms? are inextricably linked together ?? (From the Introduction to the Hebrew translation of Euclid?s book on geometry, Sefer Uklidos [The Hague, 1780] by R. Barukh Schick of Shklov, one of the main talmidim of the Vilna Gaon.) R. Yhonason Eybeschutz in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi in Torah and Science pages 24-25) writes: "For all the sciences are 'condiments' and are necessary for our Torah, such as the science of mathematics, which is the science of measurements and includes the science of numbers, geometry, and algebra and is very essential for the measurements required in connection with the Eglah Arufah and the cities of the Levites and the cities of refuge as well as the Sabbath boundaries of our cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics] is necessary for the judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are used honestly or fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary for the Sanhedrin to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests; furthermore, the need for this science is great in connection with examining witnesses, who claim they stood at a distance and saw the scene, to determine whether the arc of vision extends so far straight or bent. The science of astronomy is a science of the Jews, the secret of leap years to know the paths of the constellations and to sanctify the new moon. The science of nature which includes the science of medicine in general is very important for distinguishing the blood of the Niddah whether it is pure or impure ? and how much more is it necessary when one strikes his fellow man in order to ascertain whether the blow was mortal, and if he died whether he died because of it, and for what disease one may desecrate the Sabbath. Regarding botany, how great is the power of the Sages in connection with kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too we may mention zoology, to know which animals may be hybridized; and chemistry, which is important in connection with the metals used in the tabernacle, etc." In light of the above, I simply do not understand why some yeshiva boys do not receive an adequate secular education and why secular subjects are disparaged in some circles. On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply.? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 11 22:50:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 06:50:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply. ======================================= 1. Difficult to convince someone whose whole education has been devoted to a different approach AND has been told it is the only acceptable approach. 2. I?ve said , I agree it?s all derivable from Torah but isn?t it a more efficient use of time to get it direct rather than derive it? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 12 05:11:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:11:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? A. A hot pot of soup is a kli rishon (primary source of heat) and one may not add cold water to the pot, since this will cook the water. However, a bowl of soup is a kli sheini (secondary source of heat), and water does not cook in a kli sheini. It would therefore seem that one may add cold water to a bowl of soup. Still, the halacha is not so obvious, since there are also pieces of meat or vegetables in the soup. A solid food transferred to a secondary vessel retains the status of a kli rishon according to some poskim. Perhaps we need be concerned that the hot pieces of vegetable or meat may cook the water. The Pri Megadim (253: Aishel Avrohom 32) writes that it is possible that all agree that hot pieces of meat that are submerged in liquid in a kli sheini have the status of a kli sheini and cannot cook. This appears to be the consensus of many poskim (see Pischei Teshuva YD 94:7 and Kitzos Hashulchan 124:39). Therefore, one may add cold water to soup. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 12 14:05:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210112220532.GA5585@aishdas.org> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 02:08:05PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup >> on Shabbos? ... >> As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup >> that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the >> temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes >> is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. >From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at : Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi (MB 318:45)[10]. Before I share footnote #10, which is long and may lose people's attention, let me cite AhS 318:25 who acknowledges that some are machmir WRT bread, but doesn't consider it iqar. And the Rama, who holds like the Raaviyah, that there is no bishul achar afiyah. So, what the OU says "should not" should really be a CYLOR. Now, back to the PH: [10] Those who do not allow dipping bread into hot soup in a kli sheni follow two stringencies: a) They prohibit cooking after baking; b) they defer to the opinion that many foods are considered kalei ha-bishul and thus can become cooked in a kli sheni. Nevertheless, when serving soup using a ladle, according to Maharil, Pri Hadash, and others, the ladle is considered a kli sheni. Accordingly, the soup bowl is a kli shlishi, and in a kli shlishi there is definitely no prohibition. While Taz and Shakh maintain that the ladle is a kli rishon and MB 318:87 follows this approach, nevertheless this is a case of a twofold doubt, and thus one may be lenient (MB 318:45) as long as the ladle does not remain in the kli rishon long enough to reach the same heat as the vessel itself. Soup nuts may be added to a kli sheni even le-khathila, since they are deep fried and are considered cooked rather than baked (SSK 1:70). Furthermore, this further cooking is not desired, as people do not want the soup nuts to get soggy. According to those who maintain that ein bishul ahar afiya (there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been baked), one may definitely toast challah. Additionally, MA 318:17, Mahatzit Ha-shekel, and Hayei Adam (Zikhru Torat Moshe 24:7) would permit this even for those who are stringent about bishul ahar afiya, since they maintain that baking and roasting are the same. In contrast, some are stringent because they maintain that roasting is different from baking (Pri Megadim, Mishbetzot Zahav 318:7; SSK 1:71; Kaf Ha-hayim 318:78; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:6; Menuhat Ahava vol. 2 ch. 10 n. 154). There is even one opinion that expresses concern that this is considered Makeh Be-fatish (applying the finishing touch) (Rav Pe'alim, OH 2:52). In practice, the lenient position (that roasting and baking are the same) seems the more reasonable one, since if one continues to bake food it dries out, and essentially becomes toasted. Nevertheless, one who chooses to be stringent is commendable. This is the case when it comes to completely toasting the bread, but even those who are stringent would allow warming up bread - even to the point that the surface crisps - because doing so does not make a significant change to the baked state. Rav Pe'alim indeed states this in OH 2:52, and Nishmat Shabbat 318:26 states similarly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The greatest discovery of all time is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp a person can change their future Author: Widen Your Tent by merely changing their attitude. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Oprah Winfrey From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 04:55:09 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 07:55:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely does not cook." When I make a coffee on Shabbos morning, I take the water from the urn and put it into a cup. I then pour this water into another cup which is then a kli shlishi. However, the temperature of the water in the second cup is still very hot. Indeed, if I poured it onto my hand I would get scalded. How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup, the kli shlishi? Not very much. The temperature of the water in the second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not cook? At 05:05 PM 1/12/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at >: > > Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent > in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must > make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a > kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in > a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be > considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi > (MB 318:45)[10]. > From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 13 08:03:48 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 11:03:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On 13/1/21 7:55 am, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > > How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water > in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup,? the > kli shlishi? Not very much.? The temperature of the water in the > second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not > cook? Because that's what the halacha says. E.g. see SA Harav 551:34 who explicitly says that the heat of a keli shlishi or revi'i, even if it is yad soledes bo, has no power to cook, although according to some it still has the power to cause absorption and expulsion. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 11:22:20 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:22:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cooking in a Kli Shlishi Message-ID: <03.F5.14965.3C84FFF5@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://ph.yhb.org.il/en/01-10-07/ There is a third type of vessel known as a kli shlishi. If one pours hot water or hot food from the pot in which it was cooked into another vessel, and from that vessel into a third one, that final container is a kli shlishi. The poskim agree that a kli shlishi is unable to cook anything.[6] [6]. In truth, some Acharonim were inclined to be stringent and avoid putting anything raw and easily cooked into a kli shlishi that is yad soledet bo. Thus states Shevitat Ha-Shabbat, Mevashel 23, based on Yere?im. This is also the position of azon Ish regarding kalei ha-bishul ( Hazon Ish, O 52:19). He maintains that as long as the water is hot, no matter how many times removed the vessel is from the original kli rishon, kalei ha-bishul become cooked. AHS 318:28 states this specifically with regard to tea. According to Chayei Adam 20:4, any vessel whose contents are so hot that they would burn someone is capable of cooking. However, according to most poskim, the principle that Bishul does not apply in a kli shlishi is absolute, and any kind of raw food may be introduced into a kli shlishi. MB 318:47 records this based on Pri Megadim. The accepted explanation is that this was the Sages? assumption ? cooking is inconceivable in a kli shlishi. Further, it seems to me that cooking in a vessel that people do not generally use for cooking would not be prohibited by Torah law, since the Torah prohibition applies only to cooking in the usual manner. Since one normally does not cook in a kli sheni, there is no Torah prohibition of putting raw food into a kli sheni. However, foods that cook easily are often cooked in a kli sheni or even by irui from a kli sheni. Therefore, if one places these foods in a kli sheni or pours water on them from a kli sheni, he transgresses a Torah prohibition. However, not even kalei ha-bishul are generally cooked in a kli shlishi, so there is never a Torah prohibition involved. And since in the vast majority of cases one cannot cook in a kli shlishi, the Sages did not prohibit cooking in one in any case.MA, MB 318:34, and Kaf Ha- chayim ?70 state that the halakha follows the first opinion presented in Tosafot, Shabbat 39a. This opinion states that even though a kli sheni does not cook, one may not place raw food into such a vessel because it resembles cooking. One may, however, add spices, since that does not resemble cooking. This is also the position of Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:5. In contrast, R. Ovadia Yosef, basing himself on a number of Rishonim and Acharonim, writes that the halakha follows the second opinion in Tosafot, according to which there is never a concern of resembling cooking in a kli sheni (Ye aveh Da?at 6:22). Some maintain that since we do not know what foods are considered kalei ha-bishul, we must be stringent and refrain from putting any foods into a kli sheni except those that we know are not kalei bishul (Yere?im; Smag). Others maintain that only specific foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul are a concern (Ran; Tur). Rema 318:5 states that the custom is to be stringent, as do MA 318:18; SAH 318:12; ayei Adam 20:4; MB 318:42; SSK 1:59. SA 318:5 cites both opinions and seems inclined to be lenient. This was the inclination of a number of poskim ? that one need be stringent only with foods that are known to cook easily ( azon Ish, O 52:18; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:3). Yalkut Yosef 318:47 also records this as the position of Rambam and Maharam ibn abib. To simplify the matter, I wrote to be consistently stringent in the case of a kli sheni, and consistently lenient in the case of a kli shlishi. Even though it is agreed that one may not pour from a kli sheni onto kalei ha-bishul, nevertheless we have seen that according to most poskim, most foods are not kalei ha-bishul. Moreover, even those who are stringent consider the prohibition rabbinic, since one does not intend to cook. Additionally, pouring will only cook the outer layer of the food, which is less than the amount required to transgress a Torah prohibition, and according to Rashbam this is not considered cooking at all. Therefore, one should only be stringent and refrain from pouring from a kli sheni in the case of foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 13 11:42:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:42:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210113194249.GA11959@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 07:55:09AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely > does not cook." Me neither. But the melakhah is bishul, not cooking. For example, you have two eggs at the same temperature, one heated by a frying pan that used to be on the fire (toledos ha'ur), the other cooking in the sun (toledos hachamah). One is bishul, the other isn't. Or the hot springs of Teveriah. Chazal knew what they were and how hot the waters are. What they didn't know is whether they were warm from the volcanic processes in the ground of from the sun's heat. And despite the water being in a known resulting state, using the hot water to cook something else may or may not be bishul depending on what heated it. In general, our culture is too fixated on science to "get" halakhah. I've been saying this for a while on my own say-so, but R' David Lapin's "Matmanim" podcast had a few shiurim on this topic as well. (RDL is not to be confused with his older brother, R Daniel. R David studied under his uncle, R Elya Lopian, has semicha from R Unterman, founded the South African Instute of Business Ethics, and came in second in the hunt for a successor for the CR of the UK when R/D/L Sacks z"l retired. Matmanim is a daily 15 min shiur (6:45-7am) in the Raanana Kollel. He finds a hashkafic point, "buried trasure", in the day's daf. https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/1528778.rss Back to the point... ) I phrased it in terms of halakhah being about observed and observable reality. As it's our first-hand experiences -- those we had and those we can be held accountable for if we don't bother checking -- that impact us on the gut level, the deeper places of our psyche where decisions are made. RDLapin talks about Torah dealing with relationships, how we relate to an item, rather than facts about the item. When I emailed RDL about it, neither of us were sure whether we are saying the same thing or if there are subtle differences. Either way, we live in an era where progress is so tied to science and technology, that when we hear a word like "bishul" we look for a scientific definition of cooking. Rather, as Rashi says about cooking toledos hachamah, derekh bishul is part of the definition of the melakhah. But it would never be part of a scientific definition of cooking. To support that broad point with another example -- tal and mayim are two diferent of the 7 liquids. Both are H2O, though. Our leap to a physics or chemistry explanation when the relevant sciences may be more psychology and sociology gets in the way of understanding halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If a person does not recognize one's own worth, http://www.aishdas.org/asp how can he appreciate the worth of another? Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 08:07:27 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 11:07:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos Message-ID: In response to my email about making coffee on Shabbos I received the following query: I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? From https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/08/making-tea-and-coffee-on-shabbos/ Instant tea: Some authorities permit using pre-cooked tea leaves. For example, it would be permitted to pour hot water onto the tea leaves before Shabbos and then to pour more hot water onto the same dry leaves to make tea on Shabbos. Some halachic authorities [14] apply the rule that there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been cooked completely. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [15] accepts this as well, but adds that when one pre-cooks the tea before Shabbos, he must leave the hot water on the tea for a while to make sure that it is fully cooked. However, some halachic authorities [16] forbid this practice because the tea leaves are used purely to extract their taste. Therefore, as long as the tea leaves continue to emit taste, they are not considered already cooked. Keli Sheini and Keli Shelishi As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. However, if something is considered mi???kalei ha???bishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein [23] rule that we do not know what foods are mi???kalei ha???bishul, and therefore we need to be concerned that all foods fall into this category unless explicitly excluded in the Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli sheini, because they might be mi???kalei ha???bishul. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [25] is certain that tea is mi???kalei ha???bishul. However, the Chazon Ish [26] argues that one need not be concerned that a given food is mi???kalei ha???bishul unless an explicit source says that it is. [27] R. Hershel Schachter writes that R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik made tea in a keli sheini because he did not consider tea leaves to be mi???kalei ha???bishul, [28] and R. Schachter himself rules this way as well. [29] A keli shelishi (a tertiary vessel, from which something was poured from a keli sheini) may provide a solution to those who are concerned that tea may cook in a keli sheini. Talmudic sources do not mention such a concept, nor do Rishonim (early authorities) distinguish between keli sheini and keli shelishi. To the best of my knowledge, the only Rishon who talks about a keli shelishi is R. Eliezer of Metz, [30] who explicitly says that a keli shelishi is the same as a keli sheini. Nevertheless, many Achronim (later authorities) [31] rule that a keli shelishi does not cook even food that is mi???kalei ha???bishul, or that one need not be concerned that something is mi???kalei ha???bishul when using a keli shelishi (but they hold that in a keli sheini one should be concerned). However, many halachic authorities [32] disagree. The Chazon Ish [33] argues that there is no basis to distinguish in theory between a keli sheini and a keli shelishi. However, he continues, there may be a practical distinction: the Chayei Adam [34] rules that a keli sheini that is extremely hot (yad nichveis bo) will cook. Based on this, the Chazon Ish says that we use a keli shelishi because by the time the item has been transferred twice, it is probably no longer as hot, and therefore one does not need to be concerned for this opinion of the Chayei Adam. [35] Making Tea Using Essence Mishna Berura [36] states that the best way to make tea on Shabbos is to make essence, meaning a very strong tea, before Shabbos. When one wants to drink tea on Shabbos, he can put hot water in the cup, and then add the cold essence. This solution works according to all views because everyone agrees that water is not mi???kalei ha???bishul and therefore will not cook in a keli sheini. ______________ Let me add the caveat that the Jewish Press often added when it came to matters of Halacha. "One should consult one's local competent Orthodox rabbi." YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 16 16:54:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:54:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210117005419.GD21719@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 11:07:27AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli > Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? > > From > ... > As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary > vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does > not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] > Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was > never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. > However, if something is considered mikalei > habishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in > a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, > [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein > [23] rule that we do not know what foods are > mikalei habishul, and therefore we need to > be concerned that all foods fall into this > category unless explicitly excluded in the > Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is > forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli > sheini, because they might be mikalei > habishul... This interestingly touches on the topic I raised in my earlier email about the difference between the halachic concept of "bishul", which is defined by a set of experiences, and the scientific concept of cooking. Tea leaves don't cook easily. I spoke to importers. Making tea doesn't cook the tea leaves. Never mind "easily cooked", they don't cook at all. Which is why one can cold brew tea or make sun tea, without the water being warm, nowhere near yad soledes bo. One could make an argument that tea leaves are tavlin, flavorings that don't cook. After all, when it comes to halakhos like drinking before davening, tea is just flavored water. And from a scientific perspective, what is happening isn't cooking. BUT, is it bishul? Without a rigorous definition of bishul, we cannot rule out the idea that it includes the speed-up of making tea from hours to minutes that is caused by the water's heat. And for all I know, that as-yet-unspecified defining feature of bishul happens easily with tea leaves. (Or at least the crumbs of those leaves found in tea bags.) So, even while the tea experts say that making tea doesn't cook the leaves, that is not enough to force the conclusion that they aren't qalei bishul! Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Jan 15 06:04:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:04:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one make ices on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one make ices on Shabbos? A. The Dovev Meisharim (siman 55) writes that changing water into ice is forbidden on Shabbos. Moreover, he writes that even if the water was placed in the freezer before Shabbos, if it freezes on Shabbos, the ice would still be forbidden because of muktza. The change in form from liquid to solid turns it into a new entity which is muktza. The Chelkas Yaakov (OC 128) and many other poskim disagree on both these points. Not only is ice that forms on Shabbos not muktza, but it is not clear that there is any prohibition to make ice. This is because one does not actually make ice. All one does is place water in a cold environment and the ice forms on its own. Although one may not chop ice with your hands to actively melt it into water, one may place ice in a bowl and let it melt on its own into water. The same should be allowed in reverse. Water should be allowed to freeze into ice on its own. The Chelkas Yaakov is unsure of this last point, and therefore recommends not making ice on Shabbos unless there is a pressing need. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 26 06:05:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 14:05:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? A. In a previous Halacha Yomis we discussed the prohibition of molid rei?ach (causing the absorption of a fragrance or scent). Our current question revolves around whether this restriction applies to the human body as well. This is a matter of dispute among poskim. The Shevet Halevi (1:137) was asked whether using mouthwash on Shabbos is prohibited because of molid rei?ach. He notes that the Taz (511:8), Magen Avrohom (511:11) and Shulchan Aruch Harav (511:7) restrict washing hands with scented water on Shabbos because of molid rei?ach. Obviously, these poskim hold that molid rei?ach applies to the human body as well. However, the Mishnah Berurah (128:23) writes that many Acharonim did not accept this stringency of not using scented water on Shabbos. For example, the Chacham Tzvi (92) proves that molid rei?ach does not apply to the body, since Shulchan Aruch (OC 322:5) permits rubbing scented sticks between one's fingers to release the scent even though the fingers will absorb the fragrance. Accordingly, the Mishnah Berurah makes the following distinction. Adding scented oil to water on Shabbos is prohibited but washing one's hands with previously scented water is acceptable. Some poskim question whether the leniency of the Mishnah Berurah regarding handwashing with scented water applies to other parts of the body. Some suggest that there is room for greater leniency with respect to hands because the scent dissipates quickly (see Piskei Teshuvos 322:7). However, the Shevet Haleivi equates the entire body to hands and allows the use of mouthwash on Shabbos. Similarly, Shmiras Shabbos K?hilchaso (14:36) allows applying perfume on Shabbos (based on the Mishna Berurah), though he cautions against spraying it on clothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 25 14:14:48 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:14:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government Message-ID: Please see pages 6 - 8 of Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" sIIRC Rav Yisroel Salanter would quietly say the prayer for the government if he wad davening in a place that did not say it. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 24 06:48:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 14:48:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Coming of Moshiach Message-ID: I have posted Rav Shimon Schwab's essay on this topic at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/coming_of_moshiach.pdf This essay was written in 1974. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:42:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:42:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: Why didn't Yeshoshua ask HKB"H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Jan 26 16:03:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:03:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70ec8204-43df-9e0b-41fd-6f365220a817@sero.name> > *Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" On page 5 of this pamphlet the author writes that the hooligans of Berachos 10a who harassed R Meir were not Jewish. He gives no source for this, and I wonder where he gets it. I have always assumed they were Jewish and have never seen anything saying otherwise. If they weren't I would have expected the gemara to say so. As far as the prayer for the king is concerned, historically the fact is that in the Russian empire it was not said except in the large shuls where the Czar was likely to know what was happening. But I understand that in the Austro-Hungarian empire it was said everywhere, because the Jews actually liked the Kaiser, and vice versa. The author claims that "The tefillah does not mention a single king but rather a kingdom, since this applies even when there is a democracy". This is just not the case. Every single siddur I have seen with Hanosen Teshua, except in the USA, uses the sovereign's name. He cites Tiferes Yisrael as his source, but the Tiferes Yisrael does not refer at all to the tefillah that is said, but only to the mishnah that recommends the practice. And he does not mention democracy, even though the USA and France existed in his day; what he says is that the mishnah includes countries that are ruled by a group of leaders. In my opinion this nusach is completely inappropriate to the USA, and those shuls here who wish to pray for the country or for the government should use a different nusach written especially for that country. I have seen such nuscha'os printed in various places, that are not simply rewrites of Hanosen Teshua. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:43:41 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:43:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction Message-ID: Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a brother? What was the value at that point? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 06:27:08 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 16:27:08 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a Message-ID: There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is permitted even though it cooks. 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Many of the Rishonim state explicitly that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a metzius. The Rashba there in Shabbos 34b, the Yeraim quoted by many other rishonim and others. Tosafos there also seems to say this because they explain the difference between a kli rishon and a kli sheini based on metzius, that a kli rishon has hot walls while a kli sheini doesn't. The gemara about kalei habishul seems to support this position. The simple reading of the gemara (39a and other places) is that there are certain things that are easily cooked and you are chayav if you cook them in a kli sheini. If it was a din then how wcould you be chayav by kalei habishul? None of the Rishonim (that I saw) say explicitly that it is a din (however see Tosafos shabbos 42a where they discuss a hot bath and other Rishonim (Ramban, Ritva) which could be interpreted this way). However the Ohr Sameach (hilchos shabbos perek 9) goes with this idea explicitly, and explains it as follows. He says that the gemara states that cooking in halacha is defined as by fire or the result of a fire. He says that a kli sheini is so far removed from the fire that it can't be called toldos haeish and therefore is not considered cooking in halacha. This is similar to the din that cooking in the sun is not considered cooking. He explains that kalei habishul is a gezera because people do cook kalei habishul in a kli sheini therefore they prohibited it m'drabbanan. There are a number of practical differences in halacha regarding this question, I will mention 2 of them: 1. If the kli sheini is really hot. The Chayei Adam based on a Rambam in Maaser Sheni holds that if the kli sheini is boiling hot (if you touch it you will get burned) then the rule of kli sheini ayno mevashel doesn't apply. This is clearly going with 2, that it is a metzius, according to the Ohr Sameach it shouldn't matter. 2. Is there a kula of kli shlishi? The Mishna Berura quotes a Pri megadim who is meikel by a kli shlishi by kalei habishul, that you would be permitted to put them in a kli shlishi. The Chazon Ish and others disagree. they hold that there is no difference between a kli sheini and a kli shlishi based on Tosafos, both have cold walls and both have the same amount of heat. If you hold like 2 then the kula of kli shlishi makes no sense. However according to the Ohr Sameach that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a din and the humra by kalei habishul is only a din drabbanan, then it makes sense to say that the gezera was only made on a kli sheini and not on a kli shlishi. At first glance opinion 1 (din) seems much more logical then 2. It seems very difficult to say that the gemara is telling us a metzius without qualifying it. If the Chayei Adam is right how come the gemara didn't warn us about it. The Chayei Adam's scenario is not so uncommon and leads to an issur d'oraysa. The gemara's statement lends itself to be interpreted as a general principle in halacha not a metzius. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 27 06:54:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:54:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?_Tu=92bishvat_is_the_Rosh_Hashanah_=28n?= =?windows-1252?q?ew_year=29_for_trees=2E_What_does_this_mean=3F?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Thursday, January 28th, will be Tu?bishvat, (the fifteenth day of the month of Shvat). Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? A. There is a seven-year cycle of terumos and ma?aseros (various tithes) for produce that grows in the land of Israel. To determine which tithes must be separated, one must know in which year the produce grew. The calendar year for fruit begins on Tu?bishvat. If a fruit reached a certain stage of development called ?onas ha?maaser? before Tu?bishvat, this fruit belongs to last year?s crop and should be tithed accordingly. Fruit that reaches the stage of ?onas ha?maaser? only after Tu?bishvat, belongs to the new year and must be tithed accordingly. One exception to this rule is the esrog, which is tithed according to the year in which it is picked, regardless of when it reaches ?onas ha?maaser? (Shulchan Aruch YD 331:125-126). Tu?bishvat is relevant outside of Israel as well. Tu?bishvat plays a role in the counting of years as relates to the laws of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years). This will be discussed further in tomorrow?s Halacha Yomis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 16:07:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:07:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128000739.GE25301@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 04:27:08PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli > sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is > permitted even though it cooks. Brisk. > 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in > general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Telzh. Except that I would say, "it isn't mevasheil". You cannot assume bishul has the same limits as cooking. We are talking about a tradition in which a bat is a kind of owf. Let's look at ofos for a second, because I find it easier to illustrate my proposed general rule with a noun. We say that an "owf" is a "bird", but that's really only shorthand. One syllable is much easier to teach with than having to say and write "flying living thing". There is still an empirical fact being described. One needn't say that owf, e.g. in the laws of owfos tehoros, is just a category with no empirical basis. But the fact isn't the one we have an easy at-hand English word. Wrong culture. Similarly here, bishul needn't be some Brisker chalos sheim. But it could be a range of physical changes in a substance defined by the use of fire and not e.g. toledos hachamah. I mean, Chazal knew what changes chamei Teveriah were capable of, they just didn't know how the hot springs were hot. But they still made whether it is mevasheil depend on whether it was heated by the sun or by volcanic processes When you get to a keli sheini, you are at quite a remove from the fire, although the heat must be fire-derived heat. OTOH, when you are dealing with kalei bishul, you are closer to the idea of trigerring a physical change. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger What we do for ourselves dies with us. http://www.aishdas.org/asp What we do for others and the world, Author: Widen Your Tent remains and is immortal. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Albert Pine From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 11:26:42 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:26:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> I don't know each stage of Tu biShvat's evolution. Was it always a holiday? In the gemara, Tu biShvat is more like a shiur -- how do you know which fruit go to which terumos uma'aseros? But by the end of the geonim, tachanun was skipped on Tu biShvat. So, even if it wasn't always a holiday, it started turning into one pretty early. Well before the *publication* (so to speak) of the Zohar. So it's not of Qabbalistic roots. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From driceman at optimum.net Wed Jan 27 16:36:43 2021 From: driceman at optimum.net (David Riceman) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:36:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >> RMB: > > There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > >> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >> sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is >> permitted even though it cooks. > > Brisk. > >> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. > > Telzh. Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos). Many years ago one of my rebbeim suggested that microwaves and solar hot water heaters weren?t bishul d?orayysa because they were uncommon, but that their status might change as they became more common. David Riceman From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 10:18:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Shevat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128181856.GE7499@aishdas.org> I asked on Areivim about the origin of Tu biShvat as a yom tov even before getting to questions about the Tu biShvat Seder and how kosher is the Seifer Chemdas Yamim. Someone emailed me this nice summary in reply. I wanted to share with the chevrah. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5009491 Below is the article from after of a discussion of Tu biShvat in Chazal as a shiur for terumos uma'aseros until they run out of history and talk about contemporary custom. About Chemdas Yamim... it's enough that it is a machloqes acharonim whether the book (1) should be treated as Sabbatean, (2) is kosher because its acceptance by so many Mequbalim Qedoshim that is happens not to contain any of the author's Sabbatean heresy (R Chaim Palaggi, Turkey, 19th cent CE), or (2) is a holy book written by R Yisrael Yaaqov al-Gazi. The way academia is structured, particularly what it takes to get published and publish-or-perish there is a built in bias toward debunking things. Too much depends on coming up with novella and their Truthiness. I am therefore skeptical of an academic consensus that shows that the benighted masses outside their ivory towers are wrong. Could be good scholarship, but there are negi'os. So I wouldn't just assume their conclusions are authoritative. (Truthiness, coined by then comedy news editorialist Stephen Colbert, to describe the things we believe because they sound true because we would like them to be true.) There are numerous examples from Middle Eastern history and Biblical Archeology I can point to, where it seems clear that out of two equally plausible theories, the author was biased to pick the one that would dethrone Yeishu. (Like, did the Judean intelligensia captured with Yechaniah teach them about the idea of a messiah and messianic era, or did we get it from Zoroastrianism? Well, saying it's not in original Judaism devalues Oso haIsh, so...) Even when it comes to some Torah journals, I got tired of picking through the articles that seem so plausible until I realized I liked them because of that feeling superiori to the benighted masses or just some clever and very Truthy. Anyway, here's the relevant half of the Chabad.org post, back on topic about Tu biShvat. Tir'u baTov! -Micha Who "Invented" the Holiday on 15 Shevat? Yehuda Shurpin chabad.org ... Yet, neither the Mishnah nor the Talmud tell us about any special celebrations or commemorations associated with the day. Earliest Celebration One of the earliest sources for the 15th of Shevat being a celebratory day is a pair of ancient liturgical poems that were found in the Cairo genizah, a trove of old Torah texts, documents and manuscripts discovered in the 19th century. The poems, composed by Rabbi Yehuda Ben Hillel Halevi around the 10th century, were meant to be added to the prayer service of the day.[9] In a response to a community that wished to establish a fast day on the 15th Shevat, Rabbeinu Gershom (c. 960-1040) explained that just as one does not fast on the other days that are called "the beginning of the year" in the Mishnah, so too, one does not fast on the 15th of Shevat.[10] Additionally, we find in early sources that one doesn't recite penitential prayers on the 15th of Shevat, just as one doesn't recite them on other holidays.[11] Eating Fruits In addition to not fasting and not reciting any penitential prayers, there is also a custom to eat fruits on this day. The first to mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) in his work Tikun Yissachar. This custom was popularized by the Kabbalists and subsequently cited in many halachic works.[12] The somewhat controversial Kabbalistic work of unknown authorship Pri Eitz Hadar (first published in Venice in 1728) was also very influential in spreading the custom to eat fruits on this day. The work includes various texts that one would recite when eating the different fruits. However, the common custom is not to recite these texts when eating fruits on the 15th of Shevat... ... [9] Eretz Yisrael, vol. 4, p. 138. [10] See Responsa of Rabbi Meir of Rottenbug (Prague ed.) 5. [11] See, for example, Maharil, Chilukei Haftorot; Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 131:6. [12] See Magen Avraham, Orach Chaim 131:16; Hashlamah to Shulchan Aruch Harav, Orach Chaim 136:8; Mishnah Berurah 131:31. From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 28 05:44:31 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:44:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?How_does_Tu=92bishvat_impact_the_counti?= =?windows-1252?q?ng_of_years_of_orlah?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. How does Tu?bishvat impact the counting of years of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years)? A. The Torah states, ?When you enter the land and plant any tree for food, you shall regard its fruit as forbidden. Three years it shall be forbidden for you, not to be eaten.? (Vayikra 19:23) From here we learn that one may not eat or derive benefit from fruit that grew during the first three years of a tree?s existence. This fruit is called orlah. This prohibition applies both in the land of Israel as well as in the diaspora. In Israel, fruit that grows in the fourth year has a special kedusha (sanctity) known as ?neta revai?. When calculating a tree?s first three years of existence for orlah, the years need not be complete. Rather, if a new tree grew for a minimum of thirty days before Rosh Hashana, this is treated as the first year of the tree's existence. It is assumed that a tree does not begin to take root and grow until fourteen days have elapsed after planting. Therefore, if a tree is planted on or before the 15 day of Av, which is 44 days before Rosh Hashana, the tree is considered one year old on Rosh Hashana, and Rosh Hashanah marks the beginning of the tree?s second year of growth. If a tree is planted less than 44 days before Rosh Hashanah, one must wait until the following Rosh Hashanah (more than a year) to complete the first year of orlah. However, even after the third Rosh Hashanah marks the completion of three years, the fruit which blossoms in the fourth year before Tu?bishvat is treated as orlah as well. This is because this fruit was nourished from sap that the tree produced before Rosh Hashana. If fruit blossomed after Tu?bishvat of the fourth year, we assume that the fruit was nourished from the current year?s sap, and the fruit is not orlah. The Shach (YD 294:10) quotes the Rosh who notes that in our climate, trees don?t ordinarily blossom before Tu?bishvat, so one may assume that all fruit that is found on the tree in the fourth year is not orlah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 27 20:01:57 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> References: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> Message-ID: As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard date is required to separate them? I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th. Or is that actually the general case, and the exact date only matters in a freak occurrence? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 03:35:39 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 06:35:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> I have often wondered the same thing about so many leaders, both Jewish and not. The precedent set by appointing Yehoshua seems to be a no-brainer, in my view. I am so often disheartened when I see an organization fall apart and descend into total factionalism when its leader passes away. So much strife could be avoided simply by grooming a successor, teaching him the required skills, and making sure that he has the allegiance of the membership. Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. It almost seems like a dereliction of duty. I'd cite examples, but that would surely spur too many bickering side-comments. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 14:04:53 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:04:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128220453.GA13382@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 07:36:43PM -0500, David Riceman via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >>> sheini is not called cooking... >> Brisk. >>> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >>> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. >> Telzh. > Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook > (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos)... I would think that's a metzi'us question, but defining the issur in terms of derekh bishul rather than bishul. That certainly fits the gemara's language, except for the one-word name of the melakhah. In terms of Brisk vs Telzh.... It would still fit under Telzh, in that it's explaining halakhah in terms of realia. Brisk would stop all explanations at halachic categories. More like the "halakhah states ... is not called ..." of number 1. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Imagine waking up tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp with only the things Author: Widen Your Tent we thanked Hashem for today! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Jan 28 20:00:07 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 04:00:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. --------------------------------- Yes and one could posit a number of reasons-some cognitive and some not. That?s what I wonder about. Behavioral psychology offers some reasons for mere mortals but?. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 28 23:16:38 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 02:16:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/1/21 5:58 pm, Alexander Seinfeld via Avodah wrote: > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 > From: Zev Sero >> As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's >> climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard >> date is required to separate them? > >> I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in >> mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't >> matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... > > The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that > time and having a suffik about it's maaser. Yes, but esrogim are different because they stay on the tree all year, and are counted according to the year in which they are picked. That rules does not apply to any other fruit. [Email #2. -micha On 28/1/21 1:18 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah [forwaded from chabad.org]: > The first to > mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in > his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) > in his work Tikun Yissachar. See the Seforim blog post that RYL linked to, which cites earlier sources that Rabbi Shurpin's sources were unaware of. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From marty.bluke at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 02:04:51 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:04:51 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] R e: May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread Message-ID: Rav Meir Twersky in Beis Yitchak suggested this as pshat in tosafos. He suggests that when tosafos explains the difference between kli rishon and kli sheini as whether the walls are hot it is not based on metzius but rather whether it is normal to cook that way. It is normal to cook in a kli rishon because the walls are hot and therefore it is prohibited. It is not normal to cook in a kli sheini because the walls are cold and therefore permitted. Likewise, by kalei habishul since they cook easily people cook then in a kli sheini and therefore you are chayav. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 13:47:11 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:47:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha Message-ID: . Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the very first thing we say after benching. ???????? ????????? ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ??????????? ??? ????????. It is composed of two similar phrases, the first of which contains the preposition "el" and the second uses the preposition "al". And yet, despite this contrast, the great majority of English Tehilims and Haggadas translate both of them as "upon". The main exception is The Psalms, with the perush of Rav RSR Hirsch. He is emphatic that "el" must be translated as "toward" and not as ?upon?. He explains that the first half refers to the nations who have merely failed to recognize God, and we pray for His anger to go *toward* them, that they might come to know and understand. It is only in the second half, which refers to the evil kingdoms who have tried to destroy us, that we pray for God's anger to pour down *upon* them. Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name". To me, both can refer to people who are simply ignorant of Hashem, or perhaps both can refer to people who actively deny Hashem. But I don't see how one group is more or less evil than the other. Perhaps he gets it by contrasting "nations" and "kingdoms". If anyone can offer ideas, I'd appreciate it. In any case, it seems clear to me that the author of this Tehillim strove to distinguish between "el" and "al", and those who recite the Haggada in English might want to take note of this. Hat tip to ArtScroll's Interlinear Tehillim, from which I've been reciting Tehillim recently. True to the advertising, I have found it very helpful in understanding what I'm saying. It really does take no more than a glance to see what the more difficult words mean. A few days ago, I wasn't even paying much attention to the English - not on a conscious level at least! But my peripheral vision was surprised to see "el" being translated as "upon", and it jarred me into further research. I will also note that although the preposition "el" is best translated as "to" or "towards" in the vast majority of cases, there are indeed some exceptions, as noted by Rashi on Bereshis 20:2. It is possible that some might consider Tehillim 79:6 to be in that category, but in my view, the contrast between "el" and "al" makes that very unlikely. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 04:27:13 2021 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 23:27:13 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Milk is Produced also by non-Kosher parts of the Cow Message-ID: The Gemara Chullin 69a documents a very strange discussion. R Yirmiyah asks - is the milk from a cow that has an Issur Yotzeh, Kosher? An Issur Yotzeh is generated when a foetus in utero extends a limb to the outside and then the mother is Shechted. That limb is permanently prohibited and cannot be made Kosher. The rest of the foetus is Kosher. The Gemara explains - ALL milk ought to be Assur, because it comes from a living animal and is like Eiver Min HaChay, and only by force of a special Limmud is it Kosher. On the one hand perhaps that also permits the milk of the cow with the Issur Yotzeh on the other hand, perhaps the Torah only permits milk from a prohibited source which CAN BE revoked via Shechita, whereas the Issur Yotzeh cannot ever be revoked which makes the milk Assur. Why is the Issur Yotzeh different from the Cheilev and Gid that are present in every cow that produces milk? Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:04:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:04:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220449.GB31611@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 03:43:41AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's > first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a > brother? What was the value at that point? isn't a parent supposed to make sure children learn from their mistakes rather than repeat them? Knowing to watch what you're saying has broad applicability in life. If Yaaqov makes sure they see they have that problem, they are that less likely to say too much in other situations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:01:31 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] min hatorah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220131.GA31611@aishdas.org> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 05:22:09PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote: > He begins his chapter on Mevo HaTalmud by saying that most matters learned > from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash, based upon > the references you and I have cited, as well as several others. So, it > comes out that Chazal had a kabalah that these matters were in Torah > Shebe-al Peh MiSinai, but knew that they were not indicated in Toras Moshe, > or could not find any such indication. But they pointed out that they found > that they were eventually committed to either explicit or drash-indicated > writing in Nach. An exception can be found in an oft-cited pasuq, in Yeshiah 57:13 (used by many in / as an introduction to Shabbos morning Qiddush). Mentions a number of shevusim, including masa umatan. I can see how a pasuq in Tanakh can be cited to show there is some TSBP that was already in place and in practice by the time the navi recorded the. But how can we prove whether those pre-existing dinim are really deOraisa? Seems that "mo "most matters learned from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash" could have numerous exceptions. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:02:59 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:02:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:04:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:04:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Soloveitchik Message-ID: Thoughts on the following as applied to Rabbi JB Soloveitchik? James Gleick-"There are two kinds of geniuses: the 'ordinary' and the 'magicians'. An ordinary genius is a fellow whom you and I would be just as good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how his mind works. Once we understand what they've done, we feel certain that we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is a magician of the highest caliber." The Feynman Algorithm: Write down the problem. Think real hard. Write down the solution. The Feynman algorithm was facetiously suggested by Murray Gell-Mann, a colleague of Feynman, in a New York Times interview. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 16:57:10 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:57:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee Message-ID: . This past August, R' Yitzhok Levine cited the OU's "Halacha Yomis": > From https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/i-will-be-travelling-and-would-like-to-know-if-there-is-a-concern-of-bishul-akum-with-coffee-a-consumers-question > I will be travelling and would like to know if there is a concern > of bishul akum with coffee? (A consumer's question) > OU Kosher Certification > > Ostensibly, the prohibition of bishul akum should apply to coffee. As > previously explained, a cooked food which cannot be eaten raw and is > "oleh al shulchan melachim" (served at fancy dinners) requires bishul > Yisroel. Raw coffee beans are inedible, a... > > See the above URL for more. In a subsequent post, I quoted the conclusion of that paragraph, which was: > Nonetheless, the Pri Chodosh writes that brewed coffee need > not be bishul Yisroel, since coffee is primarily water, and > water does not require bishul Yisroel. I have been uneasy with the idea that "primarily water" could be sufficient reason to downgrade the chashivus of a food to the point where it would be exempt from Bishul Yisroel. R' Micha Berger (in this same thread) pointed out that Bishul Yisroel and Chamar Medina seem to have different standards of chashivus. Another halacha that may be related to the above appeared in today's Halacha Yomis, at https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/must-terumah-and-maaser-tithes-be-separated-from-tea-or-herbal-leaves-that-are-grown-in-israel > Must Terumah and Ma'aser (tithes) be separated from tea or > herbal leaves that are grown in Israel? > > Tosofos (Nida 50a s.v. Kol) writes that there are two categories > of spices with regard to Teruma and Ma'aser: a) Spices that are > eaten together with other foods. These require the separation of > teruma and ma'aser. b) Spices that are removed after the cooking > and are discarded. These do not require Teruma and Ma'aser. It > should follow that tea and herbal leaves do not require separation > of Teruma and Ma'aser since the tea leaves are removed after > brewing and are not consumed. Indeed, many Poskim rule this way. > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > and Ma'aser should be separated. I can't help but wonder if Rav Sternbuch might hold - because the tea leaves are significant - that tea *is* subject to Bishul Yisroel. If he does not, that might lend weight to my suspicion that "primarily water" is merely code for "liquids" in the Mimetic Tradition, i.e., that liquids simply are not a concern. (In the Textual Tradition, "primarily water" is an exemption from Bishul Yisroel because water is normally eaten raw, which might not apply to tea leaves and coffee beans.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 3 22:47:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 01:47:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > > and Ma'aser should be separated. In that case why isn't tea ha'adamah, just like vegetable soup? The reason given is because there is no substance of the leaves in the tea, unlike soup where the vegetables are left in it and are consumed with it, and thus constitute the ikar. But according to this that shouldn't matter. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 4 05:45:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? A. This is a complex question, as it is touches on a number of principals that emerge from halachic discussions about the brachos for vegetable soup, fruit soup and beer. Important responsa on this topic were composed about 300 years ago by some of the great poskim of the eighteenth century. One of the first recorded teshuvos on this topic is found in Perach Mateh Aharon (siman 40), who ruled that the appropriate beracha is shehakol. Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt?l (1670-1744) disagrees. He writes in Panim Me?iros (2:190) that borei pri ha?adomah would be more appropriate, given that tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages. Indeed, Rav Meir notes that when visiting the city of Worms Germany, he observed the great chasid, Rav Shmuel Shatin, reciting borei pri ha?adomah on a cup of tea. Rav Meir challenged Rav Shmuel that it is customary to recite a shehakol. Rav Shmuel responded that a minhag that was not established by Rabbonim has no validity. Nonetheless, the Panim Me?eiros concludes a long teshuva by saying that while in theory he sides with Rav Shmuel, but in practice, he does not wish to break with common practice and recites shehakol. Subsequent poskim have defended the custom to recite a shehakol on coffee and tea with various explanations, and that is almost universally accepted. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 4 11:46:25 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:46:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 01:45:06PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? ... > Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt"l (1670-1744) ... writes in Panim Me'iros > (2:190) that borei pri ha'adomah would be more appropriate, given that > tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages... I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. A related (I think) case in the SA is that of date butter (OC 202:7). Date butter is "ha'eitz" for Sepharadim, because date butter was a primary use of dates in the Mechaber's day. The Rama holds the safeiq is real enough to justify "shehakol" as the catch-all. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger How wonderful it is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp nobody need wait a single moment Author: Widen Your Tent before starting to improve the world. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anne Frank Hy"d From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 11:39:20 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 19:39:20 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. Joseph (who has been saying sheasani yisrael for many decades) Sent from my iPhone From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 21:13:22 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 05:13:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com>, Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? > > ----------------------------- > I responded: I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. > --------------------------------------------- > RJR replied: My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Me (again): So was mine. Joseph From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Feb 4 19:54:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 03:54:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? ----------------------------- I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. --------------------------------------------- My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Shabbat Shalom Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 4 17:26:49 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 20:26:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> On 4/2/21 2:46 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel > reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for saying shehakol. To the best of my understanding it's simply an amhoratzus that started because people didn't know what it was. Remember that edible chocolate was only invented around 1800, so most poskim never heard of it. But the issue is very different from that of tea and coffee. The poskim did know what those are, and said they are shehakol because the leaves and beans are discarded and not consumed at all. That's why I was surprised to read an opinion that they are subject to bishul akum. That's obviously not the case with chocolate. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 5 08:40:44 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:40:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? A. Shulchan Aruch (OC 182:2; 272:9; 289:2; 296:2) writes that if there is no wine available, one may recite Birchas Hamazon, Kiddush (see last paragraph for further clarification about kiddush) or Havdalah on a beverage that is prevalent in that location. This is known as Chamar Medinah (the local wine). Do tea or coffee qualify? Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yebia Omer 3:19 and Yechaveh Daas 2:38) cites some Acharonim who maintain that a beverage is only considered Chamar Medinah if it is intoxicating. Based on this, Rav Ovadia Yosef rules that one should not recite Havdalah on tea or coffee. Only alcoholic beverages such as beer are acceptable. This was also the opinion of Rav Chaim Volozhener. The Rogotchover suggests that even if it is necessary for chamar medina to be intoxicating, milk can be considered an intoxicating beverage based on the Gemara (Kerisos 13b)that a cohen may not perform the avodah in the Beis Hamikdash after drinking milk. (Presumably, milk is intoxicating in the sense that it causes drowsiness and affects a person?s mental state.) However, Rav Y.D. Soloveichik (Mi?peninei Harav p. 87) rejects the comparison between avodah and chamar medinah. Milk invalidates a cohen for avodah because it causes drowsiness, while chamar medinah is limited to actual intoxication. On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea. One may add milk to their tea or coffee, but it is not necessary. Igeros Moshe explains that these drinks are similar to wine because they are served to guests to demonstrate distinction or respect, and not only to quench one?s thirst. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 279:9) writes that there are different opinions whether chamar medina may be used for Kiddush at night and during the day. The Mishnah Berurah (272:27) rules that Chamar Medinah may be used for Shabbos daytime kiddush, but should not be used for Friday night Kiddush, If wine is not available, Friday night Kiddush should be recited on challah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:29:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:29:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel >> reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. > I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for > saying shehakol... Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. And that when eating chocolate covered raisins or nuts, both are primary. But concludes that you should make the ha'eitz or ha'adamah on something else first and then the shehakol on the chocolate. (IM OC 3:31) That does imply the chocolate alone would be shehakol, no? (I don't know, maybe he discusses the case of chocolate directly. I can only report on what Bar Ilan helped me find.) Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - George Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:30:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:30:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210207003041.GB20855@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 04:40:44PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? > On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea... The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in Litta. Gut Voch! -Micha From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 6 17:45:42 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 20:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> On 6/2/21 7:29 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. > https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei Teshuva's day. He, like his source the Divrei Yosef (R Yosef Ergas, 1685-1730), as well as the Pri Chadash on the question of bishul akum and other acharonim, were all referring to hot chocolate, which was the only kind that existed in their day. Hot chocolate is a closer question than tea or coffee, because the cocoa itself is drunk and not removed. But Divrei Yosef compares it to Shesisa, a drink made with flour, which the gemara says is mezonos if it's thick but shehakol if it's the consistency of a drink, even though the flour is in it and not removed. > Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without > all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. Actually that is not his sevara, but one he quotes from the Minchas Shlomo as a suggestion, but that the Minchas Shlomo himself questions since it's a clear halacha that ground ginger mixed with sugar is ha'adama (it says ha'etz but that must be a typo), since ginger cannot be eaten on its own. Aderaba, that is the greatest argument for it being ha'etz, since that is not just the ikar way to eat the fruit but the only way. Even if the sugar is the majority, it comes only to make the fruit edible, so it's batel to it. His own sevara for shehakol is that the taste of the sugar and other ingredients is the ikar, and not that of the chocolate at all! But it seems to me that anyone who eats chocolate will testify that it's not so. It's not chocolate-flavored sugar, it's sugar-flavored chocolate, even when the chocolate is less than 50%, kol shekein in those bars that boast on the label of being 55% or 70% or 90% cocoa solids. By the way, he quotes Pachad Yitzchak quoting Yad Malachi, a talmid of R Yosef Ergas, who paskens (unlike his rebbe) to say Ha'eitz on hot chocolate! > RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. That's just it. He doesn't consider the question and pasken on it. He just assumes it. Who knows whether when he wrote that he had any idea what chocolate is. That's my contention about why the worlds says shehakol; they just don't know what it is, or else they're relying on their predecessors who didn't know what it was. None of them considered it. They came to America and found it there in the stores, and assumed it was just another kind of candy, and thus subsumed into the question of sugar, which we pasken is shehakol. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Feb 7 10:28:55 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 18:28:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Between Science and Torah Message-ID: What precisely is the relationship between science and Torah? Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L, deals with this issue in his commentary on Shemos 19:20 in Rav Schwab on Chumash. I have posted what he wrote at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/science_torah.pdf YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 7 14:25:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 17:25:16 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 > > Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei > Teshuva's day... We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. As I see it, if cacao is shehakol in the ST's day, the same would be true of a chocolate bar in ours. Both are the usual form of consumption for the respective times. (If anything, the bar is MORE processed than the drink.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The trick is learning to be passionate in one's http://www.aishdas.org/asp ideals, but compassionate to one's peers. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 17:29:15 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but > only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in > Litta. It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of drinking it. In fact, he contrasts this with several other drinks (seltzer, lemonade, or water with honey mixed in) which are merely "mayim metukanim - enhanced water", and he specifically says that what makes "teh matok" different is that (a) it was cooked, and (b) it is not *called* "water". My conclusion is that the AhS doesn't seem to care whether the tea is sweet or not. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 06:39:13 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:39:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/21 5:25 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 >> Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei >> Teshuva's day... > We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the > distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, > liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their > usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. There is a fundamental difference between food and drink, which is the entire basis of those who say shehakol on tea, coffee, or hot chocolate. In the case of tea and coffee there is deemed to be no substance of the leaf/berry in the water. In the case of chocolate the sevara given to say shehakol is the analogy to the gemara's "shesisa". Shesisa, even if it is merely a thick liquid, is mezonos; kol shekein if it's solid. The same should be true of chocolate. How processed it is should be irrelevant, since this is the normal way the fruit is eaten, just like ginger. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 8 13:03:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:03:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 08:29:15PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you > might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude > unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of > drinking it. Well, in OC 89:23 he notes that some prohibit drinking tea with sugar before davening -- but only wwith sugar. He is unsure why they would say that, since the sugar is just to give the hot drink a little flavor. How does that make sweatened tea "akhilah"? Others allow tea drunk through a sugar cube, but not if the sugar is dissolved in the tea. (One of the places where the AhS cites the MB.) There, he does conclude "ve'eino iqar". I am just pointing out that elsewhere in the AhS, tea and tea with sugar are different things. So, I wouldn't just assume he added the word "matoq" here simply because that's the norm. (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. I would want evidence it even was their norm. In siman 89, he gives the din for tea but if the tea is with sugar.... As opposed to if the se'if saw a need to call the first case "tea without sugar" or "unsweatened tea".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 8 05:19:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 13:19:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Proper Method of Torah Research Message-ID: The following is from the fourth footnote to RSRH's Eighteenth Letter in the Nineteen Letters. A word here about the proper method of Torah research. Two revelations are before us: nature and Torah. The same method of investigation must apply to both. In studying nature, all phenomena confront us as given data, and we can only endeavor to find the laws applying to them, and their interrelation, a posteriori-by starting from these phenomena themselves. The proof of the truth of your theory, or rather of the probability of its correctness, can be provided only by nature itself, since you will have to test your theory against nature's phenomena in order to be able to state with the highest possible degree of certainty that the facts indeed confirm your assumptions, i.e., that every phenomenon observed can be explained according to your theory. In nature, one single contradicting fact can invalidate your theory, and you must, therefore, make sure to obtain as much information as possible about the phenomena that you are studying, so that, as far as possible, you will have all the facts at your disposal. Moreover, even where we are not able to ascertain the laws and interrelations governing any given phenomenon, the phenomenon itself remains a fact. All this applies equally to the study of Torah. Just as heaven and earth are facts, so, to us, are the Torah21 and its commandments. In the Torah, just as in nature, the ultimate cause is God. In the Torah, just as in nature, no fact can be denied, even though we may comprehend neither its cause nor its relation to others; instead, we must persevere, in the Torah as in nature, to trace God's wisdom which manifests itself in them. In studying the Torah, then, we must begin by accepting the Torah's commandments in their entirety as given facts; we must study them and their relationship to each other and to the aspects of life that they govern. Then we must test the soundness of our theories by their conformity with the provisions of the Law; and, here too, the highest possible degree of certainty is obtained if everything fits our theory. Moreover, just as the phenomena of nature remain facts even though we may not have found their causes or interrelationships, and just as their existence does not depend on the results of our investigation-rather, the reverse is true-so, too, the commandments of the Torah are law even if we have not uncovered the cause and interrelationships of even a single one, and our fulfillment of the commandments in no way depends on the results of our investigation. Only the commandments belonging to the category of Edos, which seek to convey insights and to affect the emotions, remain incomplete without adequate investigation. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 13:56:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:56:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> References: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 8/2/21 4:03 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in > Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. Sugar was quite expensive there, while across the border in Galicia it was cheap. That's why Litvaks make their gefilte fish and luction kugel salty and Galicianers make them sweet. The Baal Hatanya, who lived on his pay as the town maggid, first in Liozna and then in Liadi, once asked the town council for a raise, because after much thought he had come to the conclusion that sugar is a necessity and not a luxury (hechrochios and not mosros). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 9 07:30:04 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 15:30:04 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Honoring Parents Message-ID: Please see the article at https://vosizneias.com/2021/02/09/honoring-parents-and-a-new-interpretation-from-rav-elyashiv-ztl/ [https://vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rabbi-Yosef-Shalom-Elyashiv-1024x640-1.jpg] Honoring Parents, and a New Interpretation from Rav Elyashiv Zt"l - Vos Iz Neias by Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com Last week, parshas Yisro, we leined the aseres hadibros. In them, of course, is the Mitzvah of Kivud Av v?Aim ? honoring one?s parents. The Torah itself assures us that one who is careful with it will merit long life ? something very apropos during this pandemic. The Talmud [?] vosizneias.com >From this article Speech ? Children must speak softly to their parents, in a calm tone, and using the most honorable terminology and modes of address. (See Kiddushin 30a,b). On the other hand, if one speaks abusively to one?s parents he or she will earn a place in Gehenam, rachmana litzlan. Action ? The Mishna Brurah (301:4) indicates that, if possible, it is a Mitzvah to greet one?s parents every day. There are also numerous actions that are obvious that must be done regularly, for example, taking out the garbage for them regularly ? without being asked; offering them drinks or food; requesting if there is anything they need in terms of shopping, mail, etc. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:48:15 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minhagim change over time Message-ID: Understanding how certain minhagim change over time: Imho this is a process which plays out historically without a clear algorithm. Only through the eyes of retrospection (e.g. the aruch hashulchan) is the result koshered (see hilchot aveilut as an example) Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:46:39 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:46:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience Message-ID: On belief based on personal experience: A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) Me-How do we take this into account in our emunah process? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:54:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:54:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Personal thoughts on Avodah Message-ID: * Ari Wasserman,Rabbi Moshe Hauer,Rabbi Moshe Mordechai Lowy,Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz,Reb Dovid Lichtenstein,Mr. Charlie Harary-1/2/21 - Show 304 - What halachically is a good (or bad) use of our time? Someone I know often says, "Time is our most precious and perishable asset." OTOH I'm not sure I can agree with Mick Jagger that, "Time is on my side, yes it is". You can listen here to the various presentations or you can send me $4.95 (plus shipping and handling) for Joel's magic elixir algorithm which will cure all your ills and give you the proper balance of learning, sleeping, relaxing, eating, etc. For an extra $1.05 you'll also get the proper breakdown of learning time by subject including Tehillim and gedolim bios! Seriously IMHO this our biggest avodah, figuring out how HKB"H wants us to spend our time, especially the marginal free minute. IMHO you need to think about this throughout life and to talk about it from time to time with others to ensure you take into account your blind spots (true of life in general). For me, having a working basic knowledge of behavioral economics, social science, quantum physics, scientific method, legal theory, etc. will improve one's talmud torah and avodat hashem. Just be sure you're not trying to see everything as a nail because you have a hammer! These are my thoughts on our avodah in dynamic time allocation today. What are yours? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ereich at zen.co.uk Thu Feb 11 02:37:15 2021 From: ereich at zen.co.uk (L Reich) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 10:37:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: <8dab4744-a501-4547-d3af-aad949ae4e5c@zen.co.uk> to Avodah forum: Can anyone reconcile the seeming halachic contradiction regarding figs, whether fresh or dry (the latter being known as /Grogrois/ in the Talmud. All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement of examination before consumption. Yet.... Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of /Grogrois/, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the cake? Furthermore in dealing with the hazard of /Gilui/ - liquids and soft foods left uncovered and possibly injected with snake venom - The Talmud Yurshalmi states that one may eat (soft) figs in the dark and not worry about venom. What about insects ? Elozor Reich -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 13:00:12 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:00:12 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? Message-ID: From https://www.kosher.com/lifestyle/this-year-purim-falls-on-friday-what-time-should-i-begin-my-purim-seuda-1436 [https://www.kosher.com/resized/open_graph/h/a/hamentashen_purim_concept_banner.jpg] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? | Lifestyle | Kosher.com Written by Rabbis Eli Gersten, Yaakov Luban, and Moshe Zywica of the Orthodox Union . The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat.. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat ... www.kosher.com The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat?chila postpone the seuda up until three hours before Shabbat. Bedieved (after the fact), if one is unable to begin the seuda until later, one must still eat the seuda up until Shabbat. If one is still in the middle of the Purim seuda at shkia (sunset), when Shabbat begins, one must cover the food, recite Kiddush, and then continue the meal. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if this were to happen, one would recite Retzei in bentching, but not al hanissim. One cannot recite both retzei and al hanissim, since this would be a contradiction. Since we are required to recite retzei, this indicates that it is Shabbat and Purim is over. Therefore, one can no longer recite al hanissim. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 06:16:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:16:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Special Seudah When Rosh Chodesh is on Shabbos Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This Shabbos will also be Rosh Chodesh. We will be eating three seudos in honor of Shabbos. Is there anything additional that should be served in honor of Rosh Chodesh? A. There are two versions of the Talmud. The Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) was redacted in the sixth century. The Talmud Yerushalmi was composed in an earlier period in Israel. The Tur (OC 419) quotes the Talmud Yerushalmi (Megilah 1:4) that when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, the Rosh Chodesh seuda is postponed until Sunday. (It is not feasible to eat the Rosh Chodesh meal on Shabbos since three meals already take place in honor of Shabbos.) It is apparent from the Yerushalmi that a seuda is required on Rosh Chodesh. In light of the above, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 419:2) is surprised that we do not observe this custom of eating a Rosh Chodesh seudah. He speculates that since this meal is not mentioned in the Talmud Bavli, it was assumed that the Bavli disagrees with the Yerushalmi. When there is a conflict between the Bavli and Yerushalmi, we follow the Bavli, and therefore the Rosh Chodesh seuda was not observed. The Aruch Hashulchan concludes that in deference to the Yerushalmi, an extra dish should be served at the meal on Rosh Chodesh. Similarly, when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, an extra dish should be added to the Shabbos meal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 11 15:38:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:38:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210211233848.GA14859@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 03:46:39AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> On belief based on personal experience: I checked on TorahMusings, and RJR forgot to say there as well just who he is quoting, but someone wrote: >> A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and >> analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations >> similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space >> (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they >> actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how >> many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) And RJR asked: > How do we take this into account in our emunah process? I think that's leaving the personal experience route, trying to use the idea of personal experience as a data point to build a philosophical argument. Kind of like the difference between the Kuzari cheileq 1's appeal to tradition, and "The Kuzari Principle" trying to make a philosophical argument out of the impossibility of forging this kind of tradition. The question is whether you want to philosophically get knowledge about the Borei, or you want to get to better know Him. The Rambam, because he believes that a personal relationship of that sort is impossible, focuses on theological knowledge about G-d. On the opposite extreme, R Nachman eschewed studying about G-d because all that intellectualizing gets in the way of knowng Him. The resolution I pursue in my own life assumes neither of these ends of the spectrum. Ever do something you know was the wrong choice? That's because there is a gap between what we think and what we feel. (R' Elya Lopian -- all of mussar is about moving something just an ammah. Moving an idea from the head to the heart.) It is therefore not necessarily true that a pursuit of philosophical knowledge about Hashem in all His Transcendence has to get in the way of finding a relationship with Him. This is a case where compartmentalization is a good thing. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 19:18:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 22:18:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: . R' Elozor Reich asked: > All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects > found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement > of examination before consumption. > > Yet.... > > Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of > Grogrois, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed > examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did > the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the > cake? My presumption is that the ancients knew what to look for, and so they had a simpler task of discerning a problematic fig from a problem-free fig. It is "exhausting" for us because we are less familiar with what we are doing, so we go to extremes to ensure that we've resolved all doubts. It is comparable to making matzah. Back in the day, they knew what they were doing, so they could make a loaf up to a tefach thick, and still be confident that it was chometz-free. They knew how to keep kneading the dough, so that even with the passage of hours, it would still not become chometz. They could even mix flour into a pot of boiling water, and it would cook so fast that it couldn't become chometz. But we have forgotten the details, and we're woefully out of practice. So most of us go crazy making the matza as thin as we can, and bake it as fast as we can. And just to be extra-sure, many go for the well-done matzos, disdaining the merely baked ones. So too with the figs, I suspect. If you know what you're doing, you can take a glance and know whether it has any bugs or not. But if you've lost the mimetics of how to do that, a surgical inspection is the only way to know for sure. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 18:38:50 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:38:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . No, I don't really doubt that Rosh Chodesh *does* have kedusha, if for no other reason than the Beis Din's announcement of "Medudash!" My actual question concerns how we express that kedusha, and in particular, how we talk about its kedusha in our tefilos. In the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh, the middle bracha - often nicknamed "Kedushas Hayom" - closes with the words, "Baruch Atah Hashem, mekadesh Yisrael v'Rashei Chadashim. - Blessed are You, Hashem, Who sanctifies Israel and New Moons." This conclusion certainly attests to the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh, but it seems strange to me that the body of the bracha doesn't. The main text of this bracha, beginning with the words "Rashei Chadashim l'amcha natata," says many nice things about Rosh Chodesh: It's a time for kapara, we would bring korbanos. We ask Hashem that we should be able to bring these korbanos again, and we ask Him for all sorts of brachos in this new month. And we finally state the basis for these requests: "For You chose your people Israel from all the nations, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Not a single word about the kedusha of the day (until after we cross over from the body of the bracha into the chasima). The root k-d-sh never even appears, except in the phrase "Beis Hamikdash". What's going on here? I clearly recall learning, once upon a time, halachos about the structure of a bracha, and how the conclusion should summarize the main point of what the bracha is about. But that doesn't happen here. The body of the bracha talks about the Newness of the new month, and the conclusion talks about its Holiness. When Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, this omission is even sharper: "You made your Holy Shabbos known to them, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Shabbos is explicitly holy, but Rosh Chodesh just has laws? For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant that I won't bother to list them. Amida and Musaf on the Shalosh Regalim have at least two mentions of the day's kedusha: The paragraph of "Vatiten Lanu" has the phrase "Yom Tov [Ploni] Mikra Kodesh", then just before the chasima we have the phrase "Moadei Kodshecha". On Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, "Mikra Kodesh" seems to be the only explicit reference, but that's still a lot more than Rosh Chodesh's zero. I readily concede that the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh is less than that of the other holidays, possibly even less than that of Chol Hamoed. And perhaps that's the message that Chazal were sending us when they formulated this bracha. Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Sun Feb 14 02:23:31 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:23:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 04:00, Akiva Miller wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other > holidays. > Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant > that I won't bother to list them. On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it that are different. ADE From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 06:15:34 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:15:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . I wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on > other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, ... R' Allan Engel commented> > On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the > same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it > that are different. I am not familiar with this idea. Are you suggesting that these "piyutim" were inserted long after the Anshei Knesses Hagedola, similar to the pituyim that are reserved for Chazaras Hashatz on special occasions? Thet would be news to me, most especially in the case of Musaf, where mentioning the korbanos is mandated by halacha. Even if these paragraphs are recent additions, my point was that all four of them specifically mention the kedusha of Shabbos: Maariv: "Atah kidashta es yom hashevii", "V'kidashto mikol hazmanim" Shacharis and Musaf: "Am m'kadshei shevii", "uvashevii ratzisa bo v'kidashto" Mincha: "Yom menucha uk'dusha" Additional data point: My question isn't about the Amidah specifically, but about the structure of a Bracha Arucha in general. So I took a look at the last bracha after reading the haftara. On both Shabbos and Yom Tov, this bracha concludes with the same words as we say in Kiddush and in the middle bracha of the Amida, attesting to the Kedushas Hayom. But what of the body of the bracha? On Shabbos, we say "v'al yom haShabbos hazeh, shenasata lanu Hashem Elokeinu likdusha", so that matches up. But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 15 13:45:23 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:45:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim Message-ID: Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA OU's Guidelines for Purim The approaching Adar and Purim represent the sobering milestone of a year since the arrival of the pandemic on these shores. This year has brought devastating loss of life, immense financial struggle, and significant personal and social upheaval. At the same time, we are approaching a time of year that should be filled with simcha. How do we balance these emotions and experiences? See the attached guidelines, written in concert with our poskim and medical professionals. Read Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 16 09:25:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:25:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210216172556.GA18273@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 04:45:23PM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA > OU's Guidelines for Purim See also the Agudah's guidelines https://agudah.org/purim-5781-a-time-for-mindfulness-and-care And the guidelines sent around Lakewood in the name of BMG's rashei yeshiva: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1948510 (which I think is the most conservative of those I've seen) Over in my backyard, R Ron Yitzchak Eisenman sent out guidelines for Ahavas Israel of Passaic, but since RRYE is a known columnist, I thought people might be curious what he told his shul. See below, although except for capitalizing what was originally in BOLD, formatting was removed. Tir'u baTov! -Micha --------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 12:06 PM Subject: Purim 5781 Purim 5781 """""""""" Under no circumstances may anyone ever enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose The New PIP """"""""""" You all remember PIP? Purim in Pashut. This year there is a new PIP. Purim in Pandemic. How do we celebrate the joyous day of Purim during the Pandemic? The answer is, of course, by adhering to the Covid guidelines strictly and uncompromisingly. I recall very well last Purim. No one was masking as back then; in fact, we were told not to mask. No one social distanced as we never heard of the term. Purim was celebrated together with close contact, sharing of food and drink, and unbeknownst to us at the time; we were also transmitting a deadly pathogen that would wreak havoc on the world, AND PARTICULARLY HARD HIT WERE ORTHODOX JEWS. This year Baruch Hashem, we know to be careful. THEREFORE, IN THE SPIRIT OF EVEN A SAFEK PIKUACH NEFESH (SLIGHT CHANCE OF A LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION), I PRESENT MY GUIDELINES FOR PURIM 5781. 1. Parshas Zachor -- As I have mentioned in the past, the Shul follows the Psak of the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim Kanievsky that women are NOT obligated to hear Parshas Zachor. 2. Therefore, please observe the socially distant setup of the women's section. Preferably, unless you are a regular Shul goer, better not to come. If you do go and see there are no seats, DO NOT enter the women's section. You are putting people in danger, and you are doing a "Mitzvah through an Aveira." 3. The above rule of not crowding the sections applies to the Men's section as well. 4. Under no circumstances may anyone enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. 5. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose PURIM Night """"""""""" 1. One may eat before hearing the Megillah 2. Therefore, women or men who will hear the Megillah later should eat after 6:18 PM on Thursday 3. If you cannot get out to hear the Megillah, and no one can come to you to read it. You may listen to a live Zoom broadcast of the Megillah and read along with the Baal Koreh in your printed Megillah. Purim Day """"""""" a. Mishloach Manos -- Minimal Mishloach Manos this year. You only need to give two food items to one person to fulfill the Mitzvah. b. When delivering the (hopefully one) Mishloach Manos, make sure to wear a mask c. It is highly recommended not to go driving around town delivering food. This can G-d forbid lead to a "super-spreader" infecting many people. d. Stay home in your family bubble. e. The Mitzvah this year is "less (contact) is more (health)!" f. Matanos L'Evyonim can be given to me either (cash or check) in Shul beginning today. g. If you want to drop off Matanos L'Evyonim at my home (that is allowed and recommended), please come masked h. I respectfully ask that no one feel they need to visit me and certainly do not feel the need to bring me Mishloach Manos. i. The Purim Seuda should consist of people only in your immediate bubble. j. Preferably it should take place in the morning as Shabbos is coming! k. Use the extra time to learn Torah, say Tehillim, and spend quality with your children or yourself. Wishing all a joyous Purim Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Rabbi, Congregation Ahavas Israel Passaic, NJ From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 16 09:58:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:58:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Learning for the sake of learning, just to occupy one's mind with the intricacies of the Torah, even if the practical application of the law is already known, is limited to men. A woman who learns Torah does not become greater in yiras Shamayim because of it. True, she may become very learned in Torah, but this is not the object of talmud Torah. A woman may become a great philosopher or scientist, but Torah is not philosophy or science. Torah is the way Hakadosh Baruch Hu communicates with us. Only because talmud Torah is a mitzvah, a positive commandment for man, can it be a means to connect to Hashem and thereby increase his yiras Shamayim. Because a woman has no specific mitzvah of talmud Torah, she cannot utilize it as a means to increase her many ways of connection to Hashem. If a man is a great talmud chacham, having learned the entire Talmud, and has not become a greater yerei Shamayim this learning has not achieved its purpose. If a woman were to learn and know Gemara just as well as a man, it still would not make her one iota better than she is. It would have no influence on her relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu. she'asani kirtzono - He has made me according to his will, means that a woman does not need talmud Torah to come close to Hakadosh Baruch Hu. A woman can even have prophecy-the closest possible relationship to Hakadosh Baruch Hu-without learning Torah. [Email #2. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274-275. Women are also obligated to say Biros Ha Torah. While patur (exempt) from talmud Torah purely for the sake of learning, women are, nevertheless, obligated to learn the halachos of the mitzvos so they can properly fulfil them. With the exception of the few time-bound mitzvos, women have the same obligation as men to know and keep the vast majority of the mitzvos of the Torah. It is therefore incumbent upon women to learn the details of these mitzvos in order to observe them properly. How can women keep Shabbos or Yom Tov properly without knowing the applicable halachos? How can a woman conduct a business if she is not familiar with the dinim (laws) of ribbis (interest), ona'ah (misrepresentation or price fraud), or gezel (outright theft)? The difference is only in the goal of the learning. For a man, in addition to the need to know the practical halachos in order to apply them, it is also a mitzvah to occupy himself with talmud Torah as a form of avodas Hashem, serving Hashem. This is so even if there is no immediate need for this knowledge in practice, either because he already knows the dinim, or because his immediate circumstances do not require the application of what he is learning. However, for a woman, the purpose of the learning is to gain the knowledge in order to put it into practice. From zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com Tue Feb 16 11:16:54 2021 From: zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com (Zalman Alpert) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] On Feb 16, 2021 12:58 PM, "Prof. L. Levine" wrote: > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Have to admit this is strange but reflects a weird attitude towards females May I add that the views of R Schwab are not necessarily in line with Rav Breuer or Rav SR Hirsch or that they represent daas Torah just at this point a daas Yachid it warrants further investigation By the way Rav Schwab personally from the pulpit thanked and praised the late Isha gedolah Dr Gertrude Hirschler for her abridged trans of the Hirsch chumash That was not practical halacha but Torah lishma Torah hashkofa is complex and single modules or power points do not reflect the reality on the ground This is true as all rabbis are humans and MAY and do change positions,the Rav was a powerful Agudist until 1946 and then joined Mizrachi so I can guote what he said in 1938 and that would NOT reflect his position later Rabbi Schwab himself reversed himself in Tide several times ... [Email #2. -micha] > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274 - 275. Besides hilchos Shabbos none of the halachoth mentioned was taught at the Breuer's girls high school,some time was spent on secondary subjects that could gave been used Rav Schwab was the Board of Ed dean of all KAJ schools I suspect hilchos Shabbes are taught in most Bath Jacobs in metro NY And in the KAJ school no text was used no kittzur not even Rabbi Posen's Amira leBays Yaakov which was designated as a supplementary text but not formally studied As the chazal say esmahmeha ? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 16 22:39:57 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 06:39:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts Message-ID: For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 04:13:42 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 07:13:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was learning this week. I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even today. Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? Akiva Miller (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra guessing. Happy Adar!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 18 05:04:17 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? Message-ID: There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different depending on where you live and the day of the year. For a detailed discussion of this issue see https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ YL Depression Angles ? The Seforim Blog Depression Angles By William Gewirtz. Introduction: Depression angles measure the level of darkness or illumination prior to sunrise and, in a parallel fashion, after sunset. seforimblog.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 11:53:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218195341.GB18578@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 01:04:17PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different > depending on where you live and the day of the year. > > For a detailed discussion of this issue see > https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ Only end. The day begins at sheqi'ah. 0 minutes after sunset equals the sun declining 0 degrees below the horizon. No difference in when the day starts between computing a fixed interval or degrees below horizon. In any case, computing tzeis isn't siginificantly more complex. It's as easy to compute sunset (0 deg below the horizon) and add 36 minutes as it is to compute when the sun is 7.12 deg below the horizon. See the page I wrote at http://aishdas.org/luach Or the widely used http://mysmanim.com Both use declination. But I like my formatting. One page per month in normal 7x4 or 7x5 calendar format. At the cost of not having every zeman published for every day, and having to split the difference between the zeman as it was two days before today and two day after. (I even threw in the Molad on days that have one. One known bug -- doesn't know which cities light 40 min before sheqi'ah.) Suggestions invited. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 14:36:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:36:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218223619.GA9395@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 07:13:42AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic... Shorashim, likely not. So I can't help you with cases like "techum". But it shouldn't take that much diqduq knowledge to recognize which way the word is conjugated, so, more hope for verbs. Then the easy things, like .... I say "like", but I only can think of this example: No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. A final alef "-a" for zakhar nouns ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. Eg: Malkah with a hei is Lh"Q for queen. Malka with an alef - Aramit for king. For that matter, once we get to rabbinic Hebrew, the shorashim they both got from before the split between the languages is compounded by Leshon Chazal's heavy borrowing of shorashim from Aramit. The question of which language a shoresh belongs to itself becomes blurry. More like asking "when did this enter Hebrew". Like "techum", which is used in Mishnayos, in Hebrew. So, it's a Hebrew word, but a later addition, borrowed from Aramaic. (Then there is always sefaria. When you search for the word, which books dominate the search results? If the answer is Targumim, the Talmuds, Zohar, etc... you know it's Aramaic. Of course, so much of gemara (TY & TB) is in Hebrew, finding a word in gemara alone wouldn't make the point.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was > learning this week. > > I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra > v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* > was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good > example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase > "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, > and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to > conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it > was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. > > I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the > loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the > word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), > which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a > form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A > "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). > [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find > this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is > actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. > > On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must > be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any > Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any > Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has > many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, > the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what > Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa > cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute > "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak > claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same > pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that > Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in > about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. > > My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is > Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few > places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that > whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days > of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, > and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even > today. > > Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even > earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? > > Akiva Miller > > (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, > here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. > I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's > not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. > Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want > another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra > guessing. Happy Adar!) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 02:36:31 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:36:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. > A final alef "-a" for zakhar nound ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. When I was in yeshiva, I had a friend who had more than a few seforim published with Hebrew fonts, but not Hebrew language. I ended up developing a set of rules by which I could determine a book's language at just a glance: Lots of words ending with Heh - Hebrew Lots of words ending with Aleph - Aramaic Lots of words starting with Aleph - Arabic Lots of words with aleph or ayin or double-yud in the middle - Yiddish I had a rule for Ladino too, but I've forgotten it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 19 06:26:43 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:26:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi (Megillas Esther 9:16-17) explains that the Purim story took place because Haman maligned the Jews, saying that they engage in personal feuds and do not get along with one another. This is alluded to in the verse ?yeshno am echad mefuzar umeforad bein ha?amim?, there is one nation which is dispersed and scattered among the nations, i.e., lacking unity. To demonstrate the falsehood of this libelous charge, Mordechai and Esther instituted that Mishloach Manos should be given to one?s friends and acquaintances, to foster camaraderie and good will among the Jews. This demonstrates that we do not engage in personal feuds; on the contrary, we engage in acts of friendship, by gifting our food to others. Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving one?s acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Feb 19 11:33:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:33:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi... >> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor >> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal >> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). I am not understanding the ThD's explanation. After all, there is already a mitzvah in that niche. So: 1- On the first layer of the explanation, why then enact both mishloach manos and matanos le'evyonim? And 2- If we give MM to the wealthy so as not to embarass the poor, why not JUST mishloach manos, rather than matanos le'evyonim embarassing them? :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 20 19:08:07 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 22:08:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> References: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <0568e6c2-010b-31a1-fd3b-7e820b8d7560@sero.name> On 19/2/21 2:33 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: >> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >>> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >>> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >>> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Ad kan Terumas Hadeshen. The rest is the Chasam Sofer's suggestion, or rather the OU writer's understanding of the same, which I believe to be flawed. First of all, though, the Terumas Hadeshen does not mention "poor people". He says the purpose of mishloach manos is so that everyone will have enough food for the seudah, and therefore it must consist of food. Money or clothing will not do, since one can't serve those at the seudah, whereas matanos la'evyonim can be food *or* money, or anything else that helps. It should be readily understood that a person need not be poor in order to find himself not quite up to making as big a seudah as he would like. It may be that he is neither rich nor poor, he's keeping up with his bills, but he can't afford to make the kind of purim seuda he would like to make, and a care package would be welcome. It may also be that someone has plenty of money but for some reason he didn't buy enough when he went shopping, or he just isn't that good a cook, and would appreciate an outside contribution to the meal. >>> Although most people are not poor >>> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, This part is not in the ThD or the ChS, and is the OU writer's own interjection. >>> Chazal >>> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >>> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). This is the ChS, except that he doesn't say "wealthy", he says one who has plenty of food. It could even be a poor person who happens to be well provided for the purim seudah, even if he'll be eating the leftovers all week. Technically, according to the ThD's explanation of the reason for the mitzvah there's no reason to send to this person -- one could send him matanos la'evyonim, but not mishloach manos! -- , but nevertheless the ChS suggests that Chazal said to send him anyway so as not to embarrass those who are not so well supplied. The ChS's point, however, is not to whom one should send, but whether the recipient can decline, and if he does whether the giver is yotzei. So he says that according to the ThD's explanation it's obvious that if the person actually could use the extra food then his mechilah is of no effect; lepo'el his seudah is now short of what it could be, so the purpose of the mitzvah was not fulfilled. But he says even one who is well supplied should not decline, so as not to embarrass those who don't decline. I think this answers both of your questions. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 03:47:20 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 06:47:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur Message-ID: In the "credit where credit is due" department, this post results from an article in the recent issue (Dec 2020) of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. It contains an article titled "The Halachos of Davening at Home" by "Rabbi Avraham Yeshaya Cohen, Translated by Rabbi Nosson Kaiser". On page 74-75, he writes: >>> It is forbidden for a tzibbur to recite ha'aderes v'ha'emunah except on Yom Kippur, but an individual may say it anytime. [Mishnah Berurah 565:12. Nusach Sefarad says it every Shabbos and Yom Tov during pesukei d'zimra. Perhaps that is considered an individual's tefillah, as there is no requirement for a tzibbur at that point. In fact, Siddur Tezelosa D'avraham p. 159 writes that it should be said quietly, and the chazzan should not end it aloud. See also Aruch Hashulchan 281:4 and Sheivet Levi 10:86.] Mishnah Berurah 565:12 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur, though an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. [Pri Megadim in Eishel Avraham] The Dirshu Mishneh Berurah 565:16 gives some arguments (pro and con) about saying it in Pesukei D'Zimra, and also raises the issue of singing it during Hakafos on Simchas Torah. Magen Avraham 565:5 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur. (R"m Mahari"l) Pri Megadim 565:5 says: >>> See the Magen Avraham about b'tzibbur, but an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. See Darchei Moshe. Darchei Moshe 565:4 says: >>> The Mahari'v wrote that the tefillah Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah can be said by an individual any day of the year, but a tzibbur is forbidden to say it except on Yom Kippur. My question about all this does not concern the exceptions that are made for Pesukei D'Zimra or for Simchas Torah. Rather, I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. Are there any other examples of this? Can anyone explain why it would be wrong for a tzibur to choose to say it on a day other than Yom Kippur? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 20:33:22 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 23:33:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" (beis-vav-tzadi). "Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in Divrei Hayamim. I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all of these as coming from Aramaic: techum (Onkelos' translation of gevul in Bereshis 10:19 and Devarim 27:17) butz (Onkelos' translation of shesh in Bereshis 41:42 and Shemos 28:39) yakar (Onkelos' translation of kavod in Shemos 28:2 and Devarim 5:21) siruv (Onkelos' translation of ma'en in Shemos 7:27 and Bamidbar 20:21) On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. One more note: This dictionary is available on line, as a searchable and downloadable pdf file, at https://archive.org/stream/AComprehensiveEtymologicalDictionaryOfTheHebrewLanguageErnestKlein1987OCR but its copyright is murky to me. There's an "Info" button near the top right of that page, and if you click it and the "More information" button afterwards, it claims that the dictionary is in the public domain. But page 2 of the dictionary itself says "Copyright 1987 by ...", so I don't know which claim is more correct. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 21 07:37:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 10:37:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210221153722.GA10838@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 11:33:22PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated > as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as > "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form > of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is > indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I > suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. I was under the impression that shif'il is an Aramaic binyan that is borrowed by Hebrew. So, it is used for Hebrew shorashim, but the resulting word is only Hebrew after influence from Aramaic. But AFAIK, shif'il and the passive shuf'al (meshubadim hayinu leFar'oh) don't appear in Tanakh. So, one could accurately says shi'bud is Hebrew, but Rabbinic Hebrew has Aramaic influences... So, the answer isn't all that black-and-white. Why not re-ask on our sister list mesorah at aishdas.org ? It's full of people interested in nusach, as well as getting leining and tefillah "just right". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sun Feb 21 10:19:26 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:19:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/2/21 11:33 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was > Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and > many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, > and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" > (beis-vav-tzadi).?"Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word > (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash > days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in > Divrei Hayamim. Note that in Esther 1:6, in the same pasuk where "bootz" is used to mean what the Chumash calls "shesh", "shesh" is used to mean "shayish", marble. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From simon.montagu at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 00:36:11 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:36:11 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 5:27 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason > I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive > Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by > Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen > it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all > of these as coming from Aramaic: > Klein's dictionary is also available on Sefaria with a search interface: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Klein_Dictionary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 06:32:07 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:32:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Please see my question at the end. Q. I ordered a food package on Amazon two days before Purim with guaranteed delivery to my friend on Purim day. Do I fulfill the mitzvah of Mishloach Manos with such an arrangement? A. This is a matter of dispute among the poskim. Some hold that by doing so he does fulfill his obligation of Mishloach Manos (Be?er Heitev to OC 695:7, citing Yad Aharon; Da?as Torah in the name of Mahari Assad, and Rav Elyashiv, cited in Yevakshu Mipihu, Purim 1:31). However Aruch HaShulchan (695:17) held that one does not fulfill Mishloach Manos with this arrangement. The Ben Ish Chai (Teshuvos Torah Lishmah 188) explains the reasoning behind this dispute as follows: In the previous Halacha Yomis we learned that there is a dispute as to why Mishloach Manos are given. Is it to engender good will and camaraderie between people (Manos Halevi), or is it to ensure that poor people have sufficient food for their Purim Seudah (Terumas HaDeshen)? If Mishloach Manos are to foster good will ? one must send the food on Purim itself because sending the food is part of the mitzvah. Those who hold that one is yotzei, take the position that the purpose of Mishloach Manos is for the recipient to have sufficient food for the seudah. Hence, as long as the food is received on Purim ? even if it was sent prior to Purim ? the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah. _____________________________________________________________ According to the opinion that "the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah" is the purpose of sending Mishaloach Manos, then it seems to me that sending candy and cake does not fulfill the mitzvah. While some kids may make feel that candy and cakes are fine for a meal, most adults do not, and hence it seems to me that one who sends candy and sweets does not fulfill his/her obligation to send Mishaloach Manos. For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 12:57:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 15:57:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 02:32:07PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and > croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! One can argue from the Rambam's Hikkhos Tzedaqah that the same applies to michloach manos, and it's better to give smaller m"m to more people. Or maybe not. The question of how to safely do mishloach manos this year is a touchy one, and depends on local conditions. I heard one LOR recommend giving just one person whom you've already had similar contact with, and save all the great "themed shalachmanos" ideas for next year. Last year, the week before Pesach was a vary sad one in our community. (I still cry when I think of R Matis Blum's [Torah Loda'as] mother, someone who fed me many a Shabbos Qiddush snack when I was a boy, who was still sitting shiv'ah for R Matis when she started shiv'ah for her husband.) But last Purim, we weren't aware of the notion of a "superspreader event". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone http://www.aishdas.org/asp or something in your life actually attracts more Author: Widen Your Tent of the things that you appreciate and value into - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF your life. - Christiane Northrup, M.D. From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 12:08:10 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:08:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Message-ID: The following is from the Sefer The Vilna Gaon on Megillas Esther by Rabbi Asher Baruch Wegbreit. This Sefer contains many interesting insights into the Megillah. Pasuk !:4 says "when he showed the riches of his glorious kingdom, and the splendor of his excellent majesty, many days, one hundred and eighty days." Question: Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Answer: The answer lies in understanding the real purpose of the feast. Vashti's grandfather Nevuchadnezzar had hidden 1,080 treasure houses near the Euphrates River, but Hashem revealed them to Koresh, the king who preceded Achashverosh, because Hashem had designated Koresh to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. Achashverosh inherited these treasures from him. Achashverosh decided to display his vast wealth to the officers and noblemen of all the provinces of his empire in order to awe them into submission and thereby solidify his kingship, and he used the feast as a context for the presentation. The feast was thus a pretense to allow what would have otherwise been ostentatious display of his wealth. The pasuk describes this in passive form "in his showing of his treasures," to hint that this display, which was actually the purpose of the feast, was conducted in a casual manner, as if it were merely a secondary goal. Achashverosh showcased his 1,080 treasure houses at a rate of six per day- as alluded to in the six words in the pasuk describing his wealth and power ("riches," glorious," "kingdom," "honor," "sp1endorous, " and "greatness")-on each of the 180 days of the feast (180 x 6 = 1,080). At the feast, Achashverosh also donned the Kohen Gadol's garments, to convey his personal greatness and royal dominion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 22 14:55:41 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:55:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:57 PM 2/22/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say >I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is >likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave >one maneh! So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. I think not! The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different brochos, even if combined. YL From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 20:37:09 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:37:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the > AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. > > Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your > practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for > one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons > into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is considered as two??" He makes no mention of the size of these pieces; if I give a nice-size portion of meat, and then a second portion just like it, it doesn't count, because it needs to be TWO TYPES of food. The AhS quotes the Rambam as writing, "two portions of meat, or two types of food, or two types of tavshil." [Note the change in language: Rambam used the word "manos" for the meat, but "minim" for food and tavshil.] AhS concludes that "His writing 'two types' forces you to say that when he wrote 'two portions of meat' he meant 'of two types'. Or. maybe it was a printer's error and it should have said 'two types of meat' just like 'two types of food'." In your scenario, where I gave someone a bowl of salad, and a second bowl of croutons, this is surely two separate foods, and I am yotzay. If the recipient chooses to mix them together, that is his doing, but I'm already yotzay. An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, *different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 23 05:48:26 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:48:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22e901d709ea$91763780$b462a680$@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:37:09PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very > clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." > Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But > two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is > considered as two??" ... In se'if 13 he says "uba'inan shetei manos... veyotz'in be'echad". Which being darshened from the word "rei'eka" would seem to mean 1 person (getting the 2 manos) except he doesn't get to the number And se'if 15 talks about the size of a maneh, "ke'ein chatikhah hara'ui lehiskhabeid". All that aside, yes, the AhS comes down on one side. In this case, he is defending common practice against the SA se'if 4. For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying otherwise. Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:56pm -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made > a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. No, I am saying it could well be that that's the halakhah, so CYLOR. What you consider obvious doesn't seem so when you look at the sources. > I think not! > The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different > brochos, even if combined. According to the SA, the halakhah speaks of two servings. The fundamental halakhah doesn't care about "two berakhos", and according to the SA, not even whether it's two kinds of food. Giving two hamburgers may not be our minhag, but it is clear that both the SA and the Rama would say you are yotzei. (OC 695:4) The Arukh haShulchan (se'if 15) talks about the manos being generous, so you can't be yotzei giving just two kezeisim. So yes, if you give a hamburger and a bun, you could very well not be yotzei. That's exactly the logic. You say "I think not!" but why not? Do you have a maqor? That's why I would get an expert opinion before doing the same. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 14:49:44 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:49:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222224944.GB2099@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:15:34AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the > haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh > Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha > to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is > sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm > putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. The last phrase of any berakhah (that isn't just a one sentence "Barukh") is supposed to be me'ein hachasimah. But it can drift all over the place in between. Any berakhah that covers multiple topics has to be a berakhah arukhah -- barukh at beginning and last sentence; or semuchah lechaverta and thus the first barukh can be omitted. (The AhS invokes this idea to explain the structure of Birkhas haZon (the first berakhah of bentchen). The middle berakhah on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or Rosh Chodesh is apparently a berakhah arukhah hasemukhah lechaverta. Therefore, it is allowed to have multiple topics, never mind insisting it closely match the chasimah. As long as the close is me'ein hachasimah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Mon Feb 22 09:01:51 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:01:51 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 22, 2021 01:19:26 pm Message-ID: <16140349120.7Aaf7F4e.96628@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > ... I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has > free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other > way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* > b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, > some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only > by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on > only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. > > Are there any other examples of this? > There are plenty of examples of prayers that may be recited by individuals, and that may not be recited by the tzibbur. For example, suppose you have asked Sarah Pippik to marry you, and she has nodded her head and said she'll get back to you on that. Unquestionably, until you hear back from her with her answer, you are going to be inserting a private prayer three times a weekday into the benediction of Shomea` Tefillah, that she say yes to your proposal. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Xonen Hadda`ath, if you think that not marrying you indicates a failure of intelligence on her part. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Rofeh Xoley `Amo Yisrael, if you are marrying Rn. Pippik because you need a kidney transplant, and she has the same blood type as you. The point is that individuals are allowed to utter certain kinds of prayers, that the tzibbur is not allowed to say. Now, there are special laws about rain, such that, if an entire community needs rain, a tzibbur is allowed to ask for it. But that is only because our Sages have enacted laws permitting it. Otherwise it would be forbidden. Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah. Or if the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition of the `Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, unless a good strong rain would sweep the frogs back into the river where they came from. It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed to make. Unrelated to the above, in your earlier post, you mispronounced "seiruv". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 23 05:20:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:20:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? A. The Meiri (Sefer Magen Avos 23) writes that Taanis Esther is different than other communal fast days. Other communal fast days commemorate events of tragedy, while Taanis Esther is a day of celebration, for on that day, the Jews of old fasted before going to war (Mishna Berura 686:2), merited to have Hashem listen to their plea and overcame their enemies. This contrast is reflected in the following halacha: The Gemara (Megila 5a) states that when the 9th day of Av falls on Shabbos, the fast of Tisha B?av is delayed until Sunday. We do not observe the fast before Shabbos because one should postpone, rather than advance, the commemoration of tragedy. In contrast, when the 13th day of Adar falls on Shabbos, Taanis Esther is observed on the previous Thursday. We may advance the fast since it commemorates a joyous event. By the same token, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l (Halichos Shlomo, Purim 18:6) contrasts Taanis Esther with other fast days with respect to bathing and cutting hair. Although bathing is technically permitted on all fast days except Tisha B?av (Shulchan Oruch 550:1), and hair cutting is acceptable on Tzom Gedalia and Asara B?teves, some are stringent and do not bathe and take haircuts on communal fast days, in keeping with the sad character of the day . This is not the case with Taanis Esther, where everyone agrees that bathing and haircuts are permissible. Rav Zilberstein, shlita (Chashukei Chemed Megila 16b) writes that one may even listen to music. However, Rav Elyashiv, zt?l is quoted in the sefer Ashrei HaIsh (Vol. 3:41:20) as saying that it is inappropriate to listen to music. Taanis Esther is also a day of forgiveness, and music will detract from the solemnity of the day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 23 22:25:48 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 06:25:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices Message-ID: Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim. My question, almost partially addressed in the article, is assuming such a waiver is effective, is it what HKB"H wants of us? Such a waiver certainly would help the children avoid difficult issues, not just event related such as weddings, but every day issues as well. Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the waiver sending the right message? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 24 07:13:33 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:13:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 24 05:31:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:31:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? A. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim falls on erev Shabbos, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbos. (If one eats the Purim seuda later in the day, there will minimal appetite for the Shabbos meal.) The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may lechatchila postpone the seuda up until three hours before sunset. (These three hours refer to sho?os zemanios, which means the length of each hour is proportionate to the length of the day. As an example, three hours of sho?os zemanios before sunset on Purim this year in New York City will be approximately 3:00PM.) Bedieved, if unable to begin the seuda before the three-hour period, one must start the seuda before sunset, which is when Shabbos begins. However, during this three-hour time frame, only a minimal meal should be eaten (a little more than a kibaiya of challah and a small amount of meat and wine) so that one will have an appetite to eat the Friday night seuda. (See Rema 529:1 and Aruch Hashulchan 249:7) If one did not complete the Purim seuda before shkia (sunset), which is when Shabbos begins, the challah must be covered and Kiddush is recited, and then the meal continues. Hamotzi is not recited on the challah since one is in the middle of the meal (OC 271:4 and MB 18). If one drank wine during the first part of the meal, Borei Pri Hagefen is omitted during kiddush (ibid). After the seuda, one davens Kabbalas Shabbos and Maariv. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if the meal continues after sunset, Retzei is recited in Birchas Hamozon, but Al Hanissim is omitted. (One cannot recite both Retzei and Al Hanissim, as this would be contradictory. Since we recite Retzei, this indicates that Shabbos has begun, and Purim has concluded.) YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Feb 24 10:00:02 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:00:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered via Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D.BD.20687.45496306@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 12:18 PM 2/24/2021, avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org wrote: >An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the >salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single >food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, >*different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to >be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT >have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two >types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] The salad that we buy which is sold by someone in Lakewood and is made by Postiv, has the croutons in a separate plastic bag, and hence the salad and the croutons are not mixed tether, but are separate. This to me qualifies as two different foods.. >One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! I do not agree with this. The Jewish Press used to write, "Consult your local COMPETENT Orthodox rabbi." I always took this to mean that not every O rabbi is competent to answer all questions, and I do firmly believe that this is the case. For example, I have in the past had conversations with O rabbis about kashrus, and it quickly became clear that they only had "global" knowledge about hashgachos, but no detailed knowledge. A question like "Whose meat is used in such and such a product?" was met with silence. Again, not every O rabbi has the knowledge to answer all questions. How could any one man know all the nuances of the technological world we live in? Instead of CYLOR, you should write CYLCOR. YL From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 24 15:11:29 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:11:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210224231129.GG18755@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 06:25:48AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning > parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim... If the reason for aveilus running more than sheloshim is kibud (or yir'as) av va'eim rather than aveilus itself, granting them this ability would be very logical. Like doing anything else for one's parent; if they don't want it done, there is no chiyuv to do it. (For yir'ah too -- you can get reshus from a parent to sit in their seat.) To answer your question > Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they > choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand > in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the > waiver sending the right message? It depends why the parents gave them reshus. No? It could be the parent is doing the child a favor. It could be the parent believes they are better served without it. And I could picture very different answers to your questions in those two scenarios. A mother might have waved aveilus because family is important to her, and she wants her children to be able to go to the cousin's wedding that is coming up. It may be greater kibud eim to obey her accomodating going to her niece's wedding. Alternatively, mom might know her child really want to get to their friend's upcoming wedding, and doesn't want you making major sacrifices. If indeed months 2-12 are all about kibud or eimah, and the request is for the parents' sake, the greater kibud av va'eim would be not practicing aveilus. Or maybe, just going to the one wedding. Okay, we need a scenario where the motive is continuous. (The only thing that came to mind is pretty depressing: Dad got his act together, but always regretted the years he was an abusive parent. He would prefer the kapparah of a short aveilus more than a full year of the son being pushed to think about their troubled relationship.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:55:59 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:55:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: > Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many > ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon > (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only > recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? The simple answer is: Minhagim change. That's their nature. One could just as well ask why almost none of the siddurim I've seen use the halacha's text for Haneros Halalu. (It's in O"C 676. Pick your favorite rishon or acharon, and compare what they write to what you say. Cheat sheet available at https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n251.shtml#19) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 08:31:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:31:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Are you or someone you know not going to shul this Purim? (Again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note that you can pause the reading or rewind one minute. Instructions are given at the beginning of the recording. [https://groups.io/img/digest_ico_01.png] Attachments: [X] IMG-20210224-WA0008.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:41:02 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:41:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] HILCHOS PESACH FOR THE PURIM SEUDAH Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin The Rema (in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 695:2) writes that the Seudas Purim, the festive Purim meal, should commence with Divrei Torah. The Mishna Berurah (in Orach Chayim 429, seif katan 2) rules that one must begin learning about Pesach on Purim--which is exactly 30 days before Pesach. Accordingly, putting the Rema and Mishna Berurah together, it is therefore a custom to commence the Purim Seudah with a Halacha about Pesach. In this way, one also connects the Geulah of Purim to the Geulah of Pesach (see Ta?anis 29A, which states that the reason we should increase our simcha to such a great extent in Adar is because it is the commencement of both the miracles of Purim and Pesach). We provide two Halachos for you to begin: 1. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 429:1) begins Hilchos Pesach by writing that it is our Minhag to give wheat to the poor in order to help them celebrate Pesach. The Mishna Berurah (seif katan 3) notes that this Minhag dates back to the time of Chazal. 2. Rabbi Shimon Eider, Z?tl, in the Halachos of Pesach writes that in lieu of wheat, some have the custom to distribute flour or other food supplies. In our time, most communities distribute money for the poor, in order for them to purchase their needs. The leaders of our community do not tax or otherwise assess their constituents, but instead everyone is expected to give to the best of his ability. Hakhel Note: As we connect Matanos L?Evyonim to Ma?os Chitim--let us remember the Pasuk (Yeshaya 1:27): ?Tzion B?Mishpat Tipadeh V?Shaveha B?Tzedaka?--speedily and in our day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:31:53 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:31:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say Message-ID: . R' Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter wrote: > ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the > tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a > prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the 'Amidah. Or if > the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, > the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition > of the 'Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, ... > It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed > to make. Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a prohibition. To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? In any case, my original question (in the thread "Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur") was not about impromptu prayers for special events. It was about established prayers that we can find in the siddur, machzor, or elsewhere. There are many that may be said only with a minyan, and I'm wondering if there are any (beside Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah) that may be said only with*out* a minyan. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:14:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:14:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? A. The Megillah relates that the Jews fought their enemies on the 13th day of Adar. They rested and celebrated on the following day, the 14th of Adar, and that is the day that Purim is generally observed. In the capital city of Shushan there were more enemies of the Jews. The battle lasted two days and they celebrated on the 15th of Adar. Shushan was a walled city and the Rabbis instituted that Shushan and other walled cities such as Yerushalayim would celebrate Purim on the 15th. This is known as Shushan Purim. (See Aruch Hashulchan 668:2-4) The Jewish calendar is set in a manner that the 14th of Adar will never fall on Shabbos, while the 15th of Adar occasionally falls on Shabbos. Some of the mitzvos of Purim cannot be fulfilled on Shabbos, and they are observed instead on Friday and Sunday. In such instances, Purim in Yerushalayim spans three days, and that is why it is called Purim Meshulash (the three day Purim). Here is the breakdown of mitzvos for each day of Purim Meshulash: Friday: Chazal did not want the Megilah to be read on Shabbos out of concern that one might forget it is Shabbos and carry the Megillah in an area where there is no eiruv. Rather, they instituted that the Jews of Yerushalayim read the Megillh on Friday, in conformity with everyone else around the world. Chazal associated the mitzvah of Matanos L?evyonim (giving gifts to the poor) with the reading of the Megillah, so even in Yerushalayim, matanos l?evyonim is given on Friday, even though it is not yet Purim. Rav Ovadya Yosef zt?l (Yechave Daas 1:90) points out that if one has a minhag not to do melacha on Purim (and treat it like Chol Ham?oed), melacha may be performed on Friday (in Yerushalayim), since it is not actually Purim. Shabbos: The Kerias HaTorah of Purim is read on Shabbos, as well as a special Haftorah for Purim. Al Hanissim is inserted in davening and bentching. It is proper to add a special dish to the Shabbos meal in honor of Purim. Since Megillah is not read on Shabbos, it is proper to discuss the halachos of Purim to remind oneself that it is Purim day (Mishnah Berurah 688:16). Sunday: The Purim seuda takes place on Sunday and Mishloach Manos are distributed then as well. We follow the poskim who rule that Al Hanissim is not said in davening or bentching. However, since there is a minority opinion that it should be said, Rav Ovadya Yosef recommends that it be added at the end of bentching in the section of Harachaman. (Harachaman yaaseh imanu nisim v?niflaos k?mo she?asa la?avoseinu ba?yamim ha?heim ba?zman ha?zeh. Bi?yemei Mordechai?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:35:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/2/21 10:31 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar > to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a > chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big > event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's > health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many > tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When > the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the > leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? The obvious analogy is to those countries that need rain when it is not needed in Bavel, and therefore Tal Umatar is not said. The halacha is that each individual in those countries should add "Vesein Tal Umatar Livracha" in Shomea` Tefillah. However the shliach tzibur does not do so, even though each individual he is representing needs rain and did pray for it in his private tefillah. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:43:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:43:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23baca0a-f837-9cb5-c594-5a5aea4b649a@sero.name> On 25/2/21 9:14 am, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Sunday: The Purim /seuda/ takes place on Sunday and /Mishloach Manos/ > are distributed then as well. This is the opinion of the Mechaber, who is nowadays considered the "Mara De'asra" of the whole Eretz Yisrael. But in his day he was not so considered. Yerushalayim had its own rav, the Ralbach, who holds differently; he holds that Seudas Purim and Mishloach Manos should be performed on Shabbos, and thus there is only a 2-day Purim, not 3 days. I assume that in his day the Sefardi community of Yerushalayim followed his psak and not that of the Mechaber in Tzefas. I wonder at what point the community practice changed to that of the Mechaber, and whether this was influenced by the arrival of new immigrants who challenged the existing minhag based on what is written in the Shulchan Aruch. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 14:08:50 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:08:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60ec2494-9da8-8764-525b-2d8fda20d3f3@sero.name> See Malbim, who sees the whole story as a political struggle between Achashverosh and the political establishment. Bavel had been a constitutional monarchy, its kinds bound by the law, and remained so after the Persian kings conquered it. But Achashverosh, having usurped the throne, was not content with this and wanted to change it to an absolute monarchy, where the law is subject to the king, and all the country's wealth is his to spend as he pleases. So he unilaterally moved the capital to Shushan, which had never been an important city before, and then started spending untold fortunes on an endless party, at which his own appointees, servants, and armies were honored ahead of the statesmen and ministers who had been there before him. He was rubbing their faces in the new reality. Then, once he felt that point had been made, he punctuated it by throwing a party for all the commoners whose only yichus was that they happened to live in his new capital city, and at the peak of this party he summoned Vashti, the princess of the ancien regime, to humiliate her and show that she is subject to his whims, because his authority does not derive from her but from his own might. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 07:51:08 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:51:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been > "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber > pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying > otherwise. > Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. I'd like to suggest, aliba d'RMB, how this development (from "two manos" to "two minim") might have occurred. (If he wrote this in his posts, then apologize for not seeing it.) But - today being National V'nahapoch Hu Day - I'll begin at the end of the story. There is a well-known practice nowadays (I will not call it a minhag, and AFAIK not a single posek anywhere requires it) that one's basic "two manos" should be of food that have different brachos. The reason for this (in my eyes, quite obviously) is because of what counts as two "minim". Is a chicken wing and a leg two minim or that same min? What of a cookie and a donut? White wine and red? Two different white wines? Choosing foods of different bracha removes the confusion. Similarly, I can very easily imagine confusion over how large a "maneh" must be. Imagine one piece of roast, and another piece of roast. That could be two portions for an ani, or a half-portion for a teenager. So it evolved into "two minim", which simplified things greatly. Just a guess, of course. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 08:24:12 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:24:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Message-ID: . [[[ I received this a few minutes ago, in an email from a friend. I cannot verify whether it is actually from the RCBC or not, but I'd like to think it is. Just to remind everyone, I am proud to have been originally a resident of Bergen County, whose rabbis almost a year ago had the courage to shut down all the shuls even before the government required them to do so. - Akiva ]]] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Thursday, February 25, 2021 Dear Friends, In response to our recent letter about Purim and Pesach during the pandemic, many of you have asked for more detailed guidelines about how to safely fulfill the various mitzvos of Purim this year. Please see below for additional parameters, and please direct any questions to your local Orthodox rabbi in a masked, socially distanced fashion. We empathize with the general feelings of ?Covid-19 fatigue.? However, we have been informed that a new, more virulent *Galitzianer strain* has been spreading in our community. As such, this is not the time to let our guard down. *Kriyas Hamegillah* Every Jew is obligated to hear the megillah twice on Purim, but safety concerns must take precedence. We recommend that all megillah readings be done in less than 15 minutes, to stay below the CDC time frame for Covid-19 exposure. As breathing is dangerous for everyone, instead of just reading the ten sons of Haman in one breath, the baal korei should attempt to read the entire megillah in one breath. If he must take a breath during the reading, a plastic supermarket bag should be placed over his head. Care should be taken to use one of the thick kosher supermarket bags, not those thin ones from CVS. In addition, while normally a ?hei degusha? is aspirated in words like ?lah? and ?bah,? aspirating is considered a sakanas nefashos and therefore should be avoided, as bedieved the reading is kosher without such aspirated letters. Similarly, the letter ?pei? should be replaced with the softer ?fei? if the meaning of the word is not changed. Perhaps this is why Hashem in His infinite wisdom named the holiday Furim instead of Purim (see Esther 9:26). Finally, we are all familiar with the minhag to read pesukim relating to a threat of death for the Jewish people in Eicha trop. This year many more pesukim refer to deadly threats, such as ?leich kenos es kol hayehudim? (Esther 4:16) and ?vayikahalu hayehudim? (Esther 9:15). To ensure that people do not follow these examples and gather in groups, these pesukim should also be read in Eicha trop. If it does not impede one?s ability to finish reading in less than 15 minutes, one may choose to read the entire megillah in Eicha trop, so as to diminish any feelings of mirth that may lead to a momentary lapse in Covid-19 precautions, chas v?shalom *Matanos L?Evyonim* While giving money to the poor is an important part of the holiday, extreme care must be taken to not infect those who we are trying to help. While paper money is normally handed to the poor on Purim, this will necessitate the giver coming too close to the receiver, thus putting him or her in grave danger. It is also difficult to properly sanitize paper bills with Purell. Therefore, it is recommended to pre-sanitize coins and then throw them at the poor from a distance of at least six feet. *Mishloach Manos* Our usual practice of bringing food to others? homes should be avoided this year, as standing outside someone?s door may inadvertently lead to entering their house. Many of you have asked whether one who pays taxes which are then used to provide free boxes of food to the members of our community can consider this their mishloach manos. Since the distribution of these food boxes is done in a contactless manner, this is an ideal way to fulfill the mitzvah. Those who have not reported sufficient income to require paying taxes should give some money to a wealthier neighbor and thus be considered a meshutaf (partner) in his tax payments. *Seuda* The Purim seuda is usually a festive gathering and is thus the most challenging mitzvah to fulfill this year. In addition, while drinking alcohol is always discouraged, especially on Purim, it is even more inadvisable this year as it would require removing one?s mask. There is a common misconception that the mitzvah of simcha on Purim requires one to be happy the entire day. However, according to most rishonim, the shiur of simcha only requires being happy for a toch kedei dibur - about 3.4 seconds, or 4.2 seconds according to the Chazon Ish. While it is so hard for us to find any joy these days, one can read a posuk of the Torah for a few seconds (quietly, alone, and masked) and thus fulfill the mitzvah of simcha as required on Purim. Please make sure to finish being happy by chatzos so as to have time to prepare for another lonely shabbos. *Lifnim Mishuras Hadin* While none of these restrictions are necessary based on CDC or state guidelines, it is critical that we continue to signal to the world how much more virtuous we are than our ?frummer? brothers and sisters in Passaic, Lakewood, and the Five Towns. We therefore urge everyone to get at least three shots of the vaccine, stay at least eight feet apart, and wear at least two masks (unless that becomes commonplace, in which case we should wear a minimum of three masks). Wishing everyone a safe, meaningful, and safe Purim. The Rabbinical Council of Bergen County -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Feb 28 14:29:21 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 22:29:21 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 25, 2021 12:00:04 pm Message-ID: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the >> tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a >> prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah.... >> > > Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you > have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a > prohibition. > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, > similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh > Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The > community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come > and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, > many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd > unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites > Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either > in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? > This is not going to be a satisfactory answer, but one reason for thinking that it cannot be done, is that it is not done. The scenario that you described above happens frequently: the community arranges a big event, many Psalms are recited, many speeches are given, there is communal prayer -- and the shliax tzibbur adds nothing to the repetition of the `Amida. I have seen it happen, you have seen it happen. This is not an entirely satisfactory answer, because there are plenty of explicitly permitted practices, that are not practiced. Thus, that something is not done, does not necessarily imply that it cannot be done. For example, there is an undisputed halakha of "pores mappah umqaddesh", which would have been the ideal way to fulfil the mitzva of s`udath Purim last week, but I have never seen it done, or ever heard of it done, outside of Jerusalem, which is allowed to have her own customs. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim without wine, early in the day, is not the ideal way of fulfilling the mitzva. The other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise it is theft, and it is a serious sin. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim after working hours is not permitted on a Friday, even if you live in the Diego Ramirez Islands where sunset is late, unless you are pores mappah umqaddesh, because otherwise you are having your s`udath Purim too close to your s`udath Shabbath. And yet, I have never heard of anyone doing it, outside of Jerusalem. So, the fact that something is never done -- even when you think that it would and should be done, if it were permissible -- does not necessary mean that it is not permissible. So, let us look for an answer in the Shulxan `Arukh. Orax Xayyim 119:1 is the first place where it explicitly says that an individual (even when not offering a tefillath n'dava, vide infra) is allowed to insert personal requests in the silent `Amida, although there are earlier allusions to this halakha in 90:15 and 101:4. The halakha makes a point of mentioning, incidentally, that you must phrase your request in the singular, because it is a personal request. Now, let us assume, arguendo, that the shliax tzibbur is permitted to insert communal requests, in the repetition of the `Amida. One would think, that just as there is a halakha in 119:1 explicitly permitting an individual to do such a thing, there would be a parallel halakha a few simanim later, permitting the shliax tzibbur to do such a thing, but there is no such a halakha. Now, of course, the absence of a halakha permitting something does not, in general, mean that it is forbidden; but the author of the Shulxan `Arukh did think, for some reason, that there was a need, in this case, for a halakha permitting it to an individual; I would expect, therefore, that for the same reason -- whatever that reason might be -- there would be a need for a parallel halakha permitting it to the shliax tzibbur, if it were permitted. Moreover, the halakha in 107:2 is that an individual who offers an entirely voluntary prayer, which we call a tefillath n'dava, is obliged to add a personal request in his or her `Amida; and I assume that this is the reason why you are not allowed to offer a tefillath n'dava on Shabbath or Yom Tov, because you are not allowed to add personal requests to the `Amida on Shabbath or Yom Tov. 107:3 states that the tzibbur is not allowed -- is never allowed -- to offer a tefillath n'dava, and I assume that it is for the same reason, that the tzibbur is not allowed to add additional requests to the `Amida. A more thorough answer would discuss other sources -- or at least the Beyth Yosef, since I am making inferences from what is not mentioned in the Shulxan `Arukh -- but I presently lack the time (and perhaps the skill, although that may just be my saintly modesty speaking), to put any more time into a more thorough and better-researched answer. Hopefully, someone who has time to research this question more properly will find it interesting -- because I think it is -- and continue the conversation. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 1 05:25:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:25:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? A. The answer to this question emerges from an unusual story in the Gemarah. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 102b) relates that Rav Ashi referred to the evil King Menashe in a dishonorable way. That night, King Menashe appeared to Rav Ashi in a dream and quizzed him about which part of the bread must one eat first. Rav Ashi did not know the answer and King Menashe taught him that we must begin eating from the area that was baked first. Rav Ashi accepted this ruling and taught this halacha the next morning ?in the name of our teacher, King Menashe?. The Mishnah Berurah (167:1) explains that we honor the beracha by taking the first bite from the part of the bread that was most baked. This halacha is codified in Shulchan Aruch (OC 167:1). The Rema writes that since it is not clear which part of our bread bakes first, we should cut a piece from the crusty end of the loaf that contains both the top and the bottom and this piece should be eaten first. Many Kabalistic explanations are given as to the significance of this halacha, and why it was specifically taught by King Menashe. The Ben Ish Chai (Parshas Emor 1:1) writes that this is an absolute obligation. Only if one is elderly and unable to chew the crust may he begin eating the soft center. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 06:29:38 2021 From: allan.engel at gmail.com (allan.engel at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 14:29:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: The concept of employed people taking days off work for holidays does exist. On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 at 14:07, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: The > other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before > or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or > self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise > it is theft, and it is a serious sin. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 2 22:39:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 06:39:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kupat tzedaka Message-ID: I am learning the AH"S hilchot tzedaka and am struck by the poverty in the communities he relates to. This reminded me of imi morati ZL""HH relating her father's description of the grinding poverty in the shtetl. (lots of sociological history in halacha). Of particular interest was his description of how the universal practice of a single communal kupat tzedaka came to an end. Sometimes reality trumps "halacha" and maybe the mimetic tradition fails to restart in cases it should. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 05:24:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:24:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll. Is it preferable for me to recite Hamotzi right away, to minimize the hefsek (delay) between washing and Hamotzi, or should I wait until I return to my table so I can recite Hamotzi on a whole loaf of bread? A. First, let's review the general halochos of hefsek between netilas yadayim and Hamotzi. Shulchan Aruch (OC 166:1) quotes a dispute whether one is required to recite Hamotzi immediately after washing netilas yadayim, or is it not necessary. Because of the uncertainty, the Shulchan Aruch concludes that it is best not to delay. The Rema adds that if one waited between drying their hands and reciting Hamotzi longer than the time it takes to walk 22 amos (approximately 10 seconds), it is considered a hefsek. Nonetheless, the Mishnah Berurah (ibid s?k 6) writes that although it is preferable to make Hamotzi immediately after netilas yadayim, if a significant break did occur, it is not necessary to wash again. However, Igeros Moshe (OC 2:48) notes that speaking between washing and Hamotzi is a more significant hefsek and would necessitate netilas yadayim and a new bracha (unless what was spoken related to the meal). Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 13:35:15 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 21:35:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE Message-ID: The following is from the article The Legacy of RSRH, ZT"L that appears in the Sefer Selected Writings by Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L. Rav Hirsch is usually accepted as the exponent of the Torah im Derech Eretz philosophy. This principle is explained by his grandson, Dr. Isaac Breuer, as follows: "He was strictly opposed to compromise or reconciliation, or even a synthesis: he demanded full and uncompromising rulership of the Torah. The Torah cannot endure co-rulership, far less tolerate it. As a true revolutionary he seized the liberalistic individual, the liberalistic, humanitarian ideal, liberalistic capitalism, and the human intellect, celebrating orgies in the liberalistic science, and dragged them as "circumstances", in the narrowest sense of the word, to the flaming fire of the Torah to be purified or, if need be, to be consumed. As a true revolutionary he solved the unbearable tension between the Torah and the new era which had dawned over the Jews of Western Europe. He invaded the new era with the weapons of the Torah, analyzed and dissected it down to its last ingredients, and then shaped and reformed it until it could be placed at the feet of the Torah, as new nourishment for the Divine fire. The proclamation of the rulership of the Torah over the new era was the historic achievement of Hirsch's life for his own contemporaries." -- ("Hirsch as a Guide to Jewish History'' in Fundamentals of Judaism, published by Feldheim, 1949.) Unfortunately, the principle of Torah im Derech Eretz is grossly misunderstood by our contemporary Jewish orthodoxy. It does not mean that one who is a full-fledged citizen of hedonistic America and at the same time keeps the laws of the Torah, is a follower of Torah im Derech Eretz. Not to violate the laws of the Torah certainly deserves praise and recognition but it is not an embodiment of the Hirschian philosophy. Likewise, an academy dedicated to the study of science and philosophy, not in order to serve the understanding of Torah or to further the aims of the Torah but as the independent search by the human intellect to understand and control the world around -- even when added to a department of profound and very scholarly Torah studies -this is not an outgrowth of the Torah im Derech Eretz Weltanschauung of Samson Raphael Hirsch. Also, a secular university in Israel, albeit under skullcap auspices, complete with Judaic studies, is extremely remote from a Torah im Derech Eretz school even if it has established a "Samson Raphael Hirsch chair" as part of its academic set-up, something which almost borders on blasphemy. The Orthodox professional who is not regularly "koveah ittim batorah", or otherwise lacks in the performance of mitzvohs, or who is immodest in dress or behavior, is not a follower of Samson Raphael Hirsch. From all of Hirsch's prolific writings, it becomes evident that his main concern was to establish the majesty of the Divine Word and the role of the Divine Will as revealed in the Torah, to dominate all the highways and by-ways of mundane life. Those who abuse Torah im Derech Eretz as a "hetter" to lead a life of easygoing and lenient "Yiddishkeit" or those who consider the Hirschian idea as a compromise between the right and the left in Jewish thinking have distorted the meaning of the principle as laid down in the Mishne, Avos, Perek 2, 2: "Beautiful is the study of Torah combined with Derech Eretz for the effort to attain both makes one forget to commit sins". The Torah is not a mere branch of human knowledge, one discipline amongst many others, but rather must the Torah dominate all secular knowledge and all worldly activities. Equally so, the community of Israel, Klal Yisroel, as well as all Kd1il!os and organized communities, be they local or international -- which are all segments of Klal Yisroel -- are not supposed to be mere branches of a neutral Israel but are to be totally independent. The Torah community is not beholden to any non-Torah community and it. does not even recognize its authenticity. This is the essence of the Hirschian Austritt (separation) ideology. The so ailed "Austritt" is the militant vigilance of the conscientious Jew defending the Torah community against all encroachments from the non-Torah powers that be. The "AustrittL" and Torah im Derech Eretz go hand in hand, they form "one package", so to speak, and both these aspects of Hirschian thought have one aim: the total domination of Torah over all thinking and actions of individual and national life. He who separates the rule of the Torah over all facets of the communal life of Kial Yisroel from the rule of the Torah over all human knowledge, in short, he who separates the "Austritt" from Torah im Derech Eretz, renders a disservice to both. Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. It. is none of these. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 3 15:32:08 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:32:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210303233207.GF29384@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 03, 2021 at 01:24:19PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 4 05:52:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:52:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. ---------------------------------- Interesting - You had me till here -I read through the whole piece carefully and it's pretty much what I heard from my rebbeim (and some secular studies teachers)at MTA - not always carried out but certainly the aspiration (and what I've tried to live up to) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Mar 4 04:28:35 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 07:28:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha References: Message-ID: At 06:32 PM 3/3/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up > >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... > > >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal > >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, > >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which > >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes > >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). > >Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to >the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, >wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. > >That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the >washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 4 15:21:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 18:21:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 04, 2021 at 07:28:35AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if > this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, > then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make > Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that bite? Tir'u baTov! -Micha From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 10:40:19 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:40:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . Regarding the seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach - I remember many conversations in years past about making rolls from matza meal to use for these seudos, and we discussed various recipes and what bracha would be said, and whether or not they are allowed on Erev Pesach. Have we ever discussed making a matza meal (or matza farfel) *kugel*? It occurred to me that this would be a very simple solution (for those who eat gebroks, obviously), at least for an early afternoon Seudah Shlishis. A similar idea would be if a cholent could have enough matza in it that its bracha is mezonos. I could raise various issues and questions, but I think the best first step is to ask whether we've already covered this. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Mar 5 07:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 10:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:21 PM 3/4/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a >precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that >bite? You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, no matter what you make it on. YL From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 5 13:35:55 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > no matter what you make it on. And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From larry62341 at optonline.net Sat Mar 6 16:46:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 19:46:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:35 PM 3/5/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > > no matter what you make it on. > >And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > >The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station >to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. > >Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you >are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference >for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. >>Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their >>dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and >>then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. >>According to you it would be preferable to have lechem Mishneh >>next to the sink in the kitchen and make Hamotzi there, since this >>would avoid " an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the >>bread." Yet no one I know makes Hamotzi at the sink in the >>kitchen. Everyone who does not have a sink in their dining room, >>wahses in the kitchen and then walks into the dining room, sits >>down, and then makes Hamotzit. This is clearly the preferable way >>to do things. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 7 08:15:03 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:15:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 07:46:47PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: >> And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >> As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their > dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and > then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi on a shaleim at the washing station. This situation differs from what I wrote in two ways: 1- First, you set up a situation where the pause is far less avoidable. Not the "unnecessary" pause of returning to your table from the washing station when the caterer put bread cubes there to make HaMotzi on which you choose not to use in order to make the berakhah on a shaleim. Besides, sometimes, people can't even know which seat they want until more people entered, they don't want a long line at the washing station and want to wash before the crowd, so they are hunting for a spot after HaMotzi. 2- When you wash for HaMotzi on Shabbos, everyone is up to the same part of the meal. People know that others are between washing and HaMotzi. People at a simchah have a wide variety of start times. The odds that you are greeted and might reply, or they might not understand why you aren't replying, are significant. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of http://www.aishdas.org/asp heights as long as he works his wings. Author: Widen Your Tent But if he relaxes them for but one minute, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF he plummets downward. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 08:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 11:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a >piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay >at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi >on a shaleim at the washing station. Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should preferably be made sitting not standing. At the washing station you are standing, At your table you are presumably sitting. This is an important difference. Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 10:16:54 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 13:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sitting for Hamotzi Message-ID: <3D.0D.01388.9E815406@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/85596/need-to-sit-for-hamotzi Is there an obligation or a custom to sit down while saying hamotzi? What about for the other before blessings (borei minei mezonot, borei pri adamah, borei pri ha'etz, and shehakol nihiye bidvaro)? 1 Answer The Pri Megadim (opening to Brachos, 18) specifically states that there is no obligation to sit down for the Birchos HaNehenin (including the Hamotzi) However, Chazal (Gitin p. 70) and so in the Rambam (Deios chapter 4 Halacha 3) state that for good health and Derech Eretz one should eat while sitting. And since bread is being eaten while seated, as stated in the Mor Vektzia (mark 8) that "all things that are being done standing, the blessing should also be done standing. But things done while sitting, it is not proper to bless while standing, as in Birchas Hanehenin, but Bediavad Yatza" YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 8 00:54:46 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 08:54:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha Message-ID: I can not now locate the most recent thread about the Meshech Chochma's shita on kedusha, can't get the archive search to work, but IIRC R'MB said the MC holds consistently that kedusha is never inherent to an object, it is an outcome of Jewish input. It always requires human involvement. So when my pre-hesder son came home from a few days sampling the avira ruchani at Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavneh brandishing a source sheet from a shuir on cheit ha'egel, I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way. If we mess up our attitude to the place or object in question, the kedusha is removed. Seems clear from his language that he's saying the kedusha does not originate in our actions. It always originates with Hashem for the benefit of our relationship with him, and lasts only as long as that is maintained and as long as it serves that purpose. So WRT to the first luchos - 'Ein bahem kedusha mi'tzad atzmam. Rak bishvilchem she'atem shomrim osam'. If we damage the relationship mi'meila no more kedusha, We can't create kedusha except so far as the Torah specifies, ie still originating in Hashem's tzivui, but we can destroy it. This, I think, is a far less radical take on kedusha and answers my questions as to how the MC's model of kedusha applies to kohanim and to time. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:15:24 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210308181520.GA21061@aishdas.org> On Sun, Mar 07, 2021 at 11:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should > preferably be made sitting not standing... This was the main point of the OU Halakhah Yomis you started the conversation with: > Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is > preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of > reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an > overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and > 27). The author, you will note, didn't think that standing vs. sitting was an issue. Just time delay vs having a shaleim. I replied that given those two choices, you could take a roll off the table you're seated at with you to the washing stationg. (In terms of this din, it can equally be a roll from another table. But I would think it's wrong to risk that the table you take from doesn't have enough for the people seated there.) If you want to discuss standing, that's an interesting question. Why didn't the author of the OU page not consider making HaMotzi while sitting a factor to weigh? > Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting > which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting > denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. Actually, sitting for Havdalah is a Gra (Maaseh Rav) / Brisk style innovation. Minhag Ashkenaz was to stand (Rama OC 296:6). The reason why this was a much more common minhag than standing for Qiddush is because the meal is eaten sitting. But otherwise, the Kol Bo (41) said we would stand for both, as a show of kavod for the Shabbos Malka. Just as he has us stand for Havdalah. But back to the question of sitting... I don't think the need for qevi'us is invoked for the berakhah itself, but for being yotzei another. (E.g. Tosafos Berakhos 34a, "ho'il". In contrast, the SA OC 167:13 says you can be yotzei others even if everyone is standing). See AhS OC 296:17. He quotes the aforementioned Tosafos saying that since people prepare themselves for Havdalah, there is qevi'us even when standing. And one should stand as the king (King?, or or Who is the Shabbos Malka?) departs. (Except, he notes, according to the Gra.) So, if everyone is making their own HaMotzi at the wedding, sitting vs standing is a non-issue. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You are not a human being in search http://www.aishdas.org/asp of a spiritual experience. You are a Author: Widen Your Tent spiritual being immersed in a human - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:32:15 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:32:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 8 07:24:20 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:24:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] hashgacha pratis Message-ID: <150501d7142f$1caeb8b0$560c2a10$@touchlogic.com> The question (machlokes) if a person's free will allows them to act independently/against Hashems HP has been discussed here many times. I found the following post to be a very insightful and practical nafaka mina between those opinions http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2021/03/rape-does-g-d-want-someone-to-be-raped.html#disqus_thread A young lady once came to me for a theological consultation. This poised cheerful woman told me that when she was 10 she had been raped by two young yeshiva students at a religious summer camp. As a result of this incident she went into severe depression, became suicidal, and was finally placed in a mental hospital for an extended time. She said that baruch hashem, she had recovered and was no longer depressed or obsessed with revenge. Her visit was precipitated by having just seen her assailants walking down the street in Geula in Jerusalem with their wives and children -- as if they had never done anything evil. She said there was only one issue left from her experience which she couldn't come to grips with -- Why did G-d want her to be raped?" All the rabbis she had consulted with told her that it was G-d's will and that while they couldn't explain it that it must have been good and necessary. She just had to accept it as G-d's will. Her problem was that she couldn't accept that she worshipped a G-d that wanted this horrible thing to happen. I answered her that she was being told the dominant Chassidic/kabbalistic view. However I told her that [other] the Rishonim had a different view, i.e., that it is possible for a man to choose to hurt another -- even though G-d doesn't want it to happen. That she will be compensated in the Next World for her suffering but that G-d didn't cause it to happen. She was able to accept that view. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 9 10:22:59 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 13:22:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 9 03:20:10 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:20:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> References: , <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Can't see your take on this in his words. He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Further on in the words I quoted in the last email, the word 'bishvilchem' is vital. It's for 'for you', that's quite different to being 'from you' , ie me'itchem or some similar term. And he uses the term bishvilchem twice twice in that passage. A bit further again: 'ki ein shum kedusha v'inyan eloki klal biladei metzius haBoreh yisbarach shemo'. No reference to our role in maintaining kedusha there. And more broadly, his whole thesis revolves around the misunderstanding that kedusha can be a feature of something in the world independent of ratzon Hashem. So Moshe smashed the luchos to show the people how 'they hadn't achieved the goal of emuna in Hashem and his Torah hatehora'. That is, they had to realise that even the luchos were only kadosh because HKBH willed it. I'm part paraphrasing that section of course but,I think, accurately. It's true, he does also make clear that kedusha is depedant on us. But that's because without us it's meaningless, not because it originates with is. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 08 March 2021 06:32 To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Cc: Ben Bradley Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 9 08:54:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:54:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? Message-ID: From https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/ [https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/%22https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/907310658.webp?mw=500&mh=282%22] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? ? Shulchanaruchharav.com Is one required to stand when making Kiddush? Night Kiddush: [1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush. However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit. [ From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas ... shulchanaruchharav.com Night Kiddush:[1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush.[2] However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit.[3] [>From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.[4]] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas Vayechulu, although they slightly lift their bodies when saying the first words of Yom Hashishi Vayechulu Hashamayim.[5] [The above is all in accordance to Halacha, however, according to Kaballah, Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position.[6] Practically, the Chabad custom is to stand for the night Kiddush by all times, whether on Shabbos or Yom Tov.[7] So is also the Sefaradi custom, to stand for the night Kiddush[8] and so is the custom of some Gedolei Ashkenaz.[9] Other Gedolei Yisrael of Ashkenaz, however, retain the custom to sit while saying Kiddush.[10]] Day Kiddush: Whether one should stand or sit for the day Kiddush follows the same laws as the night Kiddush, of which we ruled that from the letter of the law one may choose to sit or stand, although it is better to sit and that so is the custom.[11] However, according to the ruling of Kabala, it is debated if the day Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position just as the night Kiddush, or if it is to be recited sitting.[12] Practically, many of those who are accustomed to stand for the night Kiddush are accustomed to sit for the day Kiddush.[13] Regarding the Chabad custom for the day Kiddush, there is no clear Chabad custom in this matter [as brought below] and whatever one chooses to do by the day Kiddush he has upon what to rely. Drinking the wine:[14] Even those who are accustomed to reciting Kiddush standing, are to drink the wine after Kiddush only after they sit.[15] [Nonetheless, some are lenient to drink the wine even while standing.[16]] Summary: >From the letter of the law, Kiddush can be said in either a sitting or standing position, and each one contains advantages over the other. Practically, different customs exist regarding if Kiddush is to be said sitting or standing, and each community is to follow their custom. Sefaradim stand for the night Kiddush but sit for the day Kiddush. Amongst Ashkenazim, some sit and others stand for both the night and day Kiddush. The Chabad custom is to recite the night Kiddush standing, although regarding the day Kiddush there is no clear custom. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 10 02:10:39 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:10:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> , <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: I'm stymied at this point by not being able to find the original posts we're referring to. But you state 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over' I think the temporary kedusha of Har Sinai is at least as consistent with the first approach as the second. Har Sinai had kedusha due to its role Hashem giving the Torah. Ma'amad finishes, kedusha ceases. At least as much emphasis on giver as receiver. I still think Shabbos is the proof. It's kadosh because Hashem wills it, period. Its kedusha is for us, to be sure, but our failure to keep it doesn't impact its kedusha. It remains kadosh regardless of our chillul. When it comes to kedusha of places and things, our reponse affects it because it's in our physical domain. Time is not in our domain, we live in it not vice versa, so we can't affect its kedusha. But there's only one overarching model of kedusha, and the principle gorem is Hashem, not us. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 09 March 2021 06:22 To: Ben Bradley Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Thu Mar 11 04:55:54 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 07:55:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah Message-ID: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> See https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/pesach/app/371/a-guide-to- erev-shabbos-that-occurs-on-pesach/ He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah 'Because the bracha on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use rolls for lechem mishneh' What dispute is he referring to? If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. Mordechai cohen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 11 13:17:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 16:17:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah In-Reply-To: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> References: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: <617710ea-0a5a-86a1-c525-a2d8519c63e8@sero.name> On 11/3/21 7:55 am, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah ?Because > the /bracha/?on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use > rolls for /lechem mishneh/? > > What dispute is he referring to? > > If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. > Only if you eat a shiur, which according to some opinions is 4 eggs if you are satisfied from the meal (which I assume you would be). Still, that's not an impossibly huge amount; why not just tell people that they have to eat that much egg matzah? (If you're not satisfied from the meal then the opinions range from 6 eggs to half an issaron, which is 21.6 eggs. Though presumably you'll be satisfied long before then. But in that case the eitza is simply to eat another potato!) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 12 09:19:39 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:19:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] THE HESEIBA VIDEO! Message-ID: HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, explains that Heseiba is not intended to be an act of contortion, but a comfortable way to eat in a reclined fashion, as if one is on a short bed. By clicking here, we present a video of HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, demonstrating how Heseiba should be done YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Sat Mar 13 10:19:59 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 18:19:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Shabbat Goes into Yom Tov In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone seen a discussion of davening Ma'ariv for Yom Tov/Motsa"sh early when Shabbat goes into Yom Tov (e.g. Seder Night) - including the recitation of Va-Todi'einu Shavu'ah Tov and Chodesh Tov Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 10:37:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:37:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: The CRC sent out an email saying that soft matzah is not acceptable for Ashkenazim. The person who knows a great deal about soft matzah is Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky. A google search for Zivotofsky soft matza yields * The Halachic Acceptability of Soft Matzah halachicadventures.com ? 09 of Soft Matzah Rabbi Dr. Ari Z Zivotofsky Dr. Ari Greenspan Introduction The Torah (Shmot 12:18) commands all Jews, men and women alike, to eat matzah on the ?rst night of Pesach; yet nowhere does it explain how to make this required product or how it should look. For most Jews today, matzah is a thin, * The Thick and Thin of the History of Matzah www.hakirah.org ? Vol17Zivotofsky Ari Zivotofsky, Ph.D., is a rabbi and shoh?etand teaches in the Bar Ilan University brain science program. Together they have been researching mesorah, history and halakhah from Jewish communities around the world for over 30 years. They write extensively and lecture worldwide. * Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky www.torahinmotion.org ? sites ? default Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? and more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 06:12:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 13:12:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? A. Ordinarily, after reciting a brocha on food, one may not speak until the beracha takes affect by swallowing a small bite of food. If one spoke before eating, the beracha is invalidated because of the hefsek (interruption) and must be repeated. While this is true for all foods, bread has a unique status. The Mishnah Berurah (167:35) writes that lichatchila (preferably), one should not talk until a kezayis (half the size of an egg) of bread is swallowed. However, if there is a pressing matter, one may converse after swallowing any amount. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if one spoke while chewing on the bread before swallowing, he is uncertain whether it is a beracha livatala (a blessing recited in vain) and perhaps the beracha would need to be repeated. Therefore, this should be avoided. However, the Chayei Adam writes that if a person swallowed some of the taste of the bread while chewing (even if not the actual bread itself), a new beracha is not said. In all cases, one should make an effort to swallow a kezayis of bread before talking. In the next Halacha Yomis we will discuss why bread is different than other foods. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:29:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:29:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315202916.GA25399@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 04:47:11PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the > very first thing we say after benching. [Shefokh chamsekha...] > Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who > "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name"... Thinking "out loud": A polytheist could know there is a Creator, but call on someone else. Or henotheists. Perhaps RSRH believes such people are more likely to be in the opposition, rather than ignorant. And since we switch from amim to mamlakhos, we are switching from peoples to countries, entities with militaries. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:54:45 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:54:45 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: <20210315205445.GC25399@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 03, 2021 at 01:02:59PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that > the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only > give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. Rabbi Yehudah, who authored an earlier version of the three berakhos (goy, bur, ishah) and the rebbe of R Meir who wrote our version says they are "who didn't make me" someone with fewer mitzvos. (Y-mi Berakhos vilna ed. 63b) And the chiyuvim and issurim are there whether or not one lives up to them. Maybe RMA is saying "she'asani Yisrael" would only be a berakhah if a person is on the tzaddiq side of the beinoni line? The Taz has an interesting argument (OC 46:4). He says that if the berakhos were framed as "she'asani", a person might think that nakhriim, slaves or women are less important creations. Rather, we say that while having been created a woman would have been a blessing, I thank the RBSO that I personally was given the role that has even yet more mitzvos than that! So, if RNA wants to build on the Taz, he could be saying the berakhah is thanking G-d for not only creating me with the opportunities to fulfill mitzvos of an X, but even more. On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 07:39:20PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure I understand. Aren't we taught that a Yisrael, even one > who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth > no matter what we do. The way I spun RNAlpert's idea in reply to RJR's post, I avoid this question. Yes, the person remains a Yisrael. But a sinful Yisrael. Like we tell the prospective geir: Why not remain a non-Jew and earn a lichtiger gan eden without all those duties and prohibitions? In any case, there is also the difference between Am Yisrael and Adas Yisrael. "Yisrael, af al pi shechata, Yisrael hu" refers to qedushas Am Yisrael. What RYBS calls the qedushah of the community of fate. But someone who isn't giving the eidus isn't a member of Adas Yisrael; they aren't participating in the qedushah of the community of destiny. The latter is used in the mishnah "Kol Yisrael yeish lahem cheileq le'olam haba" followed by the list of koferim, minim, apiqorsim and mumarim who don't. Because it is specifically all of Adas Yisrael who have a cheileq` RNAlpert could have meant that the berakhah "shelo asani Yisrael" would have meant "Adas Yisrael". But I like my first suggested peshat more. Feels more like something he actually would have said. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:33:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:33:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315213314.GC3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 06:39:57AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor > balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth > floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, > or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying > it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and > Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain > reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, > halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? One is not chayav for killing a tereifah or speeding up the death of a goseis. But it's still retzichah. So, just to get the post more attention, here is my guess: Shimon is oveir retzichah either way. The only question is punishability. Since lemafreia we know that Re'uvein wasn't omeid lamus, one would have said that Shimon's violation is punishable. Except that you set up a situation in which Shimon couldn't have been acting bemeizid and with hasra'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:28:05 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:28:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315212805.GB3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 10:31:53PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax > tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's > health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? I thought "kol hameshaneh mimatbeia shetav'u chakhamim eino ela to'eh" refers to making it a norm. But the similarly phrased "... bibrakhos, lo yatza yedei chovaso", about the chasimah or whether it's a berakhah arukhah, is even once. In personal baqashos... It is one thing to make a tefillah for cholim in a time of need. But one isn't supposed to be inserting the Yehi Ratzon into EVERY Refa'einu for months or years on end. Here, IMHO the justification would be similar to that of adding baqashos to Sh"E during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah. "Zokhreinu lechaim", "Mi Khamokha", etc... Not the chasimos, which aren't baqashos but special seasonal matbeios. Which the Sha"tz says too. So, I would think the Chazan could / should say something in Refa'einu. But my 2 week search for meqoros turned up empty. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:13:38 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:13:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315211338.GA3647@aishdas.org> We discussed this topic around 15 years ago. I ended up asking R Herschel Schachter. He brought proof from the Rama that Ashkenazim weren't making cracker-like matzos in his day. So of course the concept isn't a problem. (That said, I opened the question asking about a specific bakery which had just started taking on-line orders. So RHS reminded me that he hasn't looked at that bakery. While he can say the idea has no problems, he had no idea if the hekhsher checking the implementation is reliable.) You may recall that one of our more active members at the time was making wrap- or more accurately tortilla-like matzos. (Wraps usually contain yeast, and tortillas usually don't.) So the discussion got quite lively. I learned something else interesting in that discussion. Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A person lives with himself for seventy years, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and after it is all over, he still does not Author: Widen Your Tent know himself. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 15:07:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:07:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210315220748.GD3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10:39AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is > the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those > mitzvos? I think > ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem > raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah > kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Yes, this requires that the Borei actually commands them. But it's not quite what I would consider a partnership. G-d "participates" in the sense that according to R Meir Simchah haKohein qedushah is about the Inyan E-loki. The proximate cause is us; we are the only means of bringing that G-dliness into a place or object. R Yitzchak Blau has a lecture on Gush's VBM entitled "Sanctity in the Thought of R. Meir Simcha" at https://www.etzion.org.il/en/sanctity-thought-r-meir-simcha He has more examples there of the MC making statements about qedushah to this effect than I was researching. I was on Shemos 12:21 "mishkhu uqechu" when I found that RYB's lecture. Here's what I was open to: Vehinei yeish leha'arikh, shekol meqomos hamuqdashim ein YESODAM min hadas raq meiha'umah vehasharashim "Yesodam" is underlined in my MC. As he continues, all the das, the religious texts say is "the place where Hashem will choose." It's the places history as the place from where Adam was created and where Yitzchaq was ne'eqad that gives it qedushah. We don't identify a holy location by das, we identify it from the people. Also, "Raq Y-m vekhol EY veHar haMoriah benuyim al hisyachasum la'avoseinu". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 16 04:53:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:53:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). > But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In > which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia > se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Two questions: If a belila raqa is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin? If you need to check the label to determine something or other, then you're admitting that this product does have tzuras hapas, aren't you? The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah or raqa? Akiva Miller From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 16 08:18:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:18:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210316151802.GD3279@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:53:54AM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote: > If a belila rakah is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin?... See the AhS OC 158:28, quoting the BY. Two baked goods, one avah and one raqa. The avah is "lechem gamur hu" and gets hamotzi and benching. And the ones that is rakah and very thin is mezonos and al hamichyah. But, as pas haba bekisnin -- it's a hamotzi if you are qoveia se'udah. BUT in se'ifim 47-48 he talks about a different baked good that is rakah, water and flour poured onto the kirah. The Tur says that it's mezonos normally, hamotzi if you are qoveia' se'udah. The BY says it's always mezonos -- he holds it's not lechem at all. (Which I concluded to mean, not even PhBbK.) In se'if 47, it is mezonos because there is even the littlest liquid underneath it, even if it's just to stick. In 48, there is a goma under it. Goma is apparentlly a pullrush or papyrus leaf. I am guessing that is also about not sticking. A modern factory bakery is greasing the baking surface to prevent sticking, so I assumed the latter se'ifim were closer to our topic. (In fact, it was the only case that stuck in my memory until I went back to the siman and had an "oh yeah!". I was that sure that's the case we typically face.) > The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the > liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba > b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah > or raqa? I didn't mean the ingredient label. I meant check if there is anything written next to the hekhsher. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 16 00:20:30 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:20:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Several individuals have asked me to elucidate my question appearing in Avodah Digest, Vol 39, Issue 23 regarding early minha Maariv on Shabbat going into Yom Tov If you look at the Nosei Kelim in SA OH 293:3 (e.g., Mishna Berura no. 9), it is clear that Davening Minha/Maariv [before and After Plag - with va-Todi'einu in Ma'ariv] early on Shabbat afternoon going into Yom Tov (like this year), is considered a davar Tamu'ah and halakhically dangerous since people may start with preparations for yom tov (Seder) and even melakha - and not wait for Tseit ha-Kokhavim. Hence it is permitted only bi-she'at ha-dehak (See Mishna Berura). The question is whether with the change of clock to DST, starting the Seder as soon as possible after tseit so the young children and zekeinim will be able to stay up for the seder is enough of a She'at ha-dehak to permit it. Two poskim were consulted on 2 Nisan 5781 (March 15, 2021): Rav Asher Zelig Weiss and Rav Avraham Shraga Stiglitz both Shlita - and were meikel in such a case. It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles be lit and the seder begin. Kol Tuv and Pesach Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Ethel and David Resnick Professor Emeritus of Active Oxygen Chemistry Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il. From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 08:19:58 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:19:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cracking the History of Soft Matzah Message-ID: This is a very interesting talk about soft matzah given by Rabbi dr. Ari Zivotofsky las year. The talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/podcast/cracking-the-history-of-soft-matzah Cracking the History of Soft Matzah | Torah In Motion Contact Us. Torah in Motion 3910 Bathurst Street, Suite 307 Toronto, ON M3H 5Z3 Canada Tel: (416) 633-5770 Toll Free: (866) 633-5770 info at torahinmotion.org www.torahinmotion.org The source material for this talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/sites/default/files/podcast/matzah_thick_thin_sources.pdf To whet your appetite about this talk, see the second source about finding moldy bread on Pesach in the above pdf file. YL Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky 1 Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.torahinmotion.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 06:17:26 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 13:17:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? A. Shulchan Aruch (451:26) writes that glass does not absorb and therefore does not need to be kashered. However, Rama (Orach Chaim 451:26) writes that the minhag of Ashkenazim is that glass that had been used with hot chametz may not be used on Pesach even if it was kashered. There are two reasons given for this. One reason is because we compare glass, which is made from sand, to cheres (earthenware), which is made from clay. Just as cheres cannot be kashered, likewise glass may not be kashered. The other reason is because we are concerned that one might not kasher glass properly for fear it might crack. Chayei Adam 125:22 writes that if it is difficult to purchase new drinking glasses for Pesach, glasses, which are used primarily for cold drinks, may be kashered with hagalah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 17 05:12:53 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:12:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance (e.g. distancing to try to save lives rather than to meet technical distance criteria) Thoughts on whether this is a common issue? I guess the other side is not looking at areas outside of ritual as being halachic issues? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at mail.gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:29:35 2021 From: jmeisner at mail.gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:29:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... This is a point that has been made often, even outside of the context of the frum community (Zeynep Tufekci has a number of good articles providing data points): that the fixation with hard rules such as 6 feet and 15 minutes rather than broad principles that could be intelligently applied to specific situations (such as Japan's three C's of avoiding close contact, crowded places, and closed spaces) and a tendency for experts (or politicians, perhaps) to take hold of false certainty (l'hakeil ul'hachmir) rather than a nuance born of an honest acknowledgement of how little we knew are among the greatest systemic failures of the Western COVID response. From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 17 16:05:11 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> References: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210317230511.GH19872@aishdas.org> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... I used a different metaphor in the opening of Widen Your Tent, that of an apprentice to an overly methofical carpenter. (Since it's a book about the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher, I called this chapter, "The Introduction to the Introduction".) The carpenter teaches his apprentice one skill at a time, mastering each in order before moving on to the next. So the young lad learns how to use a hammer, learning how to drive the nail in, straight and true, in just a few blows. Then he is introduced to the screwdriver, in all its variants. And when he learns how to screw into any wood without stripping the threads or the head of a Phillips screwdriver, they move on the trade's various saws. And so on through the whole toolset. In fact, the master teaches his apprentice multiple opinions about proper technique, and even ways to use the tools according to various opinions of how to maximize success at the same time. And then, as they just complete practicing a few ways of joining corners, the master, sadly, dies, leaving the student knowing everything about woodwork, but with only a layman's knowledge of the construction of a cabinet, table, or chair. Or how to build shelves that can support the weight of a library of books, and the like. And the apprentice is even further from any knowledge of how to express himself artistically, such as through detailed woodworking." This problem is worse than the forest vs. the trees. It's knowing how to walk (the "halakh" of halakhah) and not knowing where to go (having a derekh). If you miss the forest for the trees, at least you have trees. If you don't know how to define the goals halakhah are to help you reach in a way that works for you, you could walk the wrong direction. Rav Chananel bar Papa said: What is meant by, "Hear, for I will speak princely things, [and my lips will open with what is right]" (Mishlei 8:6)? Words of Torah are compared to a ruler, to tell you that just as a ruler has power of life and death, so too the words of the Torah [have potential for] life or death. As Rava said: To those who go to the right side of it, it is a sam hachaim, a medicine for life; to those who go to its left, it is a sam hamaves, an elixir of death. - Shabbos 88a In addition to creating a culture where people don't bother thinking about what all the CoVID rules are for, since we're used to just thinking about the rules (to summarize how I heard RJR's point), there is a more direct connection. We've become so obsessed with personal observance, with "frumkeit", that we risk lives in ways that would be unthinkable to true ovedei Hashem. Religion as a literal sam hamaves. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 04:52:56 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 07:52:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Selling Chometz on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In a regular year, Erev Pesach (for those who sell their chometz) is rather simple. For the early morning, we can do whatever we want with our chometz, including eating it, and doing business with it. At a certain point, we must stop eating it, and shortly thereafter, the rav sells all the chometz that we've set aside to a non-Jew. This year, the rav will obviously do this business with the non-Jew before Shabbos; it is a regular business transaction, and all the papers must be signed etc etc etc before Shabbos begins. But exactly when is this kinyan chal? Exactly when is the ownership transferred, and when does the rental of the storage space begin? My point is this thread is to suggest that each person should check with their rav to find out the answer. Perhaps there are ways to do all the paperwork etc before Shabbos, yet have it not take effect until a certain time on Shabbos morning. That would be very convenient. But if it all takes effect on Erev Shabbos, then there are several practical ramifications that people might not realize, especially for those who have reserved some chometz to be eaten on Shabbos. If the sale has already taken place on Erev Shabbos, then all my chometz MUST be gotten rid of on Shabbos morning. If the challah was too large for everyone to eat, I do not have the option of putting the remainder with the chometz to be sold. The sale already took place, and this chometz will remain mine. My only options are to eat it, or do some other form of biur. On the flip side, I also don't have the option of retrieving something from the "chometz to be sold" area. In a normal year, if it is Erev Pesach morning and there is an item in the "to be sold" area that I want to eat, there's no problem eating it. But this year, if the sale already took place on Erev Shabbos, then it is too late. Even entering that area would be a violation of the rental agreement. So if you're planning to sell your chometz this year, please ask your rav when the sale takes effect. Or show me where my logic is mistaken. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 10:14:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non- > compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing > the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the > letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit > of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. > claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than > learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance ... If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz sale contract..." cite: https://collive.com/rabbis-decide-to-unilateraly-sell-chometz-of-europes-jews/ I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. But this is an entirely different case. I appreciate the rabbis' desire to minimize the violations of these tinolos shenishbu. But it seems to me that this mechira would have the effect of totally circumventing the entire halacha of Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach. Details would need to be studied (like the status of chametz that a store acquires during Pesach) but on the simple face of it, this mechira would allow any of us to shop anywhere in chu"l after Pesach (at least b'dieved). The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law says not. When a Jew does melacha on Shabbos, and I want to get hanaah from it, halacha makes distinctions whether the melacha was done b'shogeg or b'meizid. Similar distinctions could have been applied to Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach, but instead, Chazal chose to legislate a boycott, in the hopes that these Jews would mend their ways. CONCLUSION AND DISCLAIMER: I am NOT suggesting that these rabanim are wrong. It is their job to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of such an idea. All I'm saying is that it seems to be a great example of how an implementation of the Letter might go very much against the Spirit. (And if it turns out that this article didn't get the story right, it's still an example of how Letter and Spirit *might* conflict.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 19 09:31:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:31:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? A. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 463:3) rules that flour made from roasted wheat kernels may not be mixed with water on Pesach. Even though wheat that is fully roasted cannot become chometz, we are concerned that perhaps some kernels were not properly roasted, and subsequently, the flour might become chometz when mixed with water. The same concern applies to matzah with flour on its surface. It is forbidden to mix such matzah with water because the flour may not be fully baked and would be susceptible to becoming chometz (MB 463:8). Where there is no perceptible flour in or on the matzah, is there a concern that some of the dough may not have been thoroughly mixed, and within the matzah there may be raw flour that was not fully baked? There are two different customs; Mishnah Berurah (458:4) notes that there are anshei ma?aseh, scrupulous individuals, who act stringently and do not allow matzah to come in contact with water, as perhaps it may contain unbaked flour. Many Chassidim have this custom. However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. Shaarei Teshuva, (OC 460:10) notes that both groups are meritorious. Those who do not eat gebrochts are motivated by yiras shomayim (fear of heaven), lest they inadvertently transgress the laws of Pesach. The ones who are lenient are concerned that not eating gebrochts will limit their simchas (joy of) Yom Tov. Shaarei Teshuva concludes: ?Both groups are pursuing paths for the sake of Heaven, and I declare: And Your people are entirely righteous (Yeshaya 60:21).? I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. " YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Fri Mar 19 05:19:02 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:19:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday Message-ID: <0d4301d71cba$0c5d12c0$25173840$@touchlogic.com> Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Mar 21 14:45:42 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:45:42 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 21, 2021 06:06:56 pm Message-ID: <16163811420.61bcacf5f.47748@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is > ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? > I think you need to clarify this common belief, before you ask the question. The belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may shower on Friday, to prepare for Shabbath, for yourself. Rather, the belief is that public aveluth, on Shabbath, spoils the mood, for others. If other people can notice that you have not showered, then your aveluth is intruding into the public space. If you smell like roses, the belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may nevertheless shower because you feel better when you do. It's not about you. It is the same logic that would allow you to stay (according to some opinions) after the xuppa at your daughter's wedding, if you are in aveluth -- not because you are allowed to celebrate her wedding, but because your absence would reduce her celebration. Of course, this hetter does not apply to weddings where there is a mexitza between the men and the women, because then your daughter cannot know that you are there anyway. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 07:22:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:22:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? A. The second cup of wine at the seder is filled after karpas so that Maggid (the central portion of the Haggadah) will be recited over the cup of wine. The Mishnah Berurah writes that after filling the cup, it is inappropriate to drink a separate cup of wine (Be?ur Halachah 473:3 s.v. Harishus). Both Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichos Shlomo, Hil. Pesach 9:34) and Rav Elyashiv (Shevus Yitzchok, Pesach 9:3) maintain that only wine is restricted, but in cases of necessity, one is permitted to drink water or coffee. Rav Elyashiv explains that unless there is a pressing need, even water should be avoided because the Haggadah should be recited with a sense of awe and reverence (see Mishnah Berurah 473:71). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 10:37:33 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:37:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322173733.GB27896@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 01:14:47PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." It's not really the Spirit vs the Letter of the Law, which is a Pauline concept. It's how much conformance to the spirit of the law are we obligated to obey beyond its letter. > I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even > without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for > people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. I would think because they are unlikely to get hana'ah from the chameitz, and therefore it's a case of zokhin le'adam shelo befanav. Here we would have to argue that consuming stolen chameitz is less than an issur than owning and consuming chameitz. And enough of a clear advantage that you can invoke "zokhin le'adam". So, I don't see: > The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law > says not. Because I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the da'as of the maqneh. So I would have argued the reverse: the spirit of the idea of no Jews owning chameitz on Pesach says it's a great idea, but it seems to me it would be the letter of the law that says it's impossible. As you phrased things, and you feel the halakhos of mechirah are met, there is a spirit of the law not being violated -- he shouln't want to own chameitz. I mean, this is far gentler than "kofin oso af al pi she'omer 'Rotzeh ani!'" I am wondering if there is an "al pi nistar" that is being addressed with even the flimsiest excuse of a sale. (While not a Chabad group, founder R Menachem Margolin and most (? all?) of the other members of RCE and EJA are Lubavitcher Chassidim. So, when I don't understand what they're doing al pi nigleh, I wonder if they have some al pi nistar motive.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp, http://www.aishdas.org/asp And the Torah, its light. Author: Widen Your Tent - based on Mishlei 6:2 - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 09:55:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 12:55:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322165547.GA27896@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:20:30AM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done > until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles > be lit and the seder begin. This is generally what one hears as pesaq. And I understand warning people not to forget that melakhah is prohibited, even for the seder. (The RBSO also had to remind us that melakhah is prohibited even for the Miskan.) But I don't get reason for saying no hakhanah. I would think that since the seder (or any se'udas Yom Tov) is a devar mitzvah, a shevus, such as hakhanah, would be allowed during bein hashemashos. (Assuming no melakhah is involved.) I found some sources when we discussed this back in v33n46. https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n046.shtml#01 The Rambam (Shabbos 254:10), MB 211:28, 30, AhS OC 261:11 (who allows "lidevar mitzvah o tzorekh harbei", arguably not delaying the seder is both.) So I don't know why "everyone" bans setting the table, getting the pillows and kitls out, etc..., until tzeis. It seems to me that the MB and AhS would agree you could start at sheqi'ah. Of course, I'm no poseiq. Just wondering about the gap between what I learned and the generally repeated pesaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow http://www.aishdas.org/asp man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries Author: Widen Your Tent about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 22 14:57:33 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:57:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2205c312-d18c-b963-6a89-e4de0bf1661e@sero.name> On 19/3/21 12:31 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., > citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not > /halachicaly/ mandated, Of course it isn't. Literally nobody claims it is. So what does your citation achieve? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 14:58:13 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 21:58:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] cRc Kashrus Alerts In-Reply-To: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> References: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> Message-ID: ________________________________ Tevilas Keilim Update Having trouble reading this email? View it in your browser.<{{onlineview()}}> [KASHRUTH ALERT HEADER] March 22, 2021 Last year, due to COVID-19 restrictions, consumers who were unable to tovel their new keilim (utensils) before Pesach were advised to make them ownerless (mafkir) to exempt them from tevilah. This was a special leniency due to COVID-19 when the local mikvaos were closed. This year, Boruch Hashem. those restrictions have been lifted as the mikvaos are open and have been deemed safe to use. Accordingly, before using those keilim which were made ownerless last year, one should ?reacquire? them by picking them up and then tovel them (with a bracha, if required). Anyone who is still unable to arrange for the tevila of their kelim due to exigent circumstances should be in touch with us for further instructions. Chag Kasher v'Sameach. ************************************************************************************ TO REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, please send your comment or question to the cRc at info at crcweb.org The cRc?s app is available for the iPhone, Android, Kindle, and BlackBerry 10. For product information see our Web-based Application ASKcRc where kosher consumers can check the kosher status of hechsherim, beverages, liquors, foods, fruits & vegetables, Slurpees, medicines, and more. The information is accessible via a simple search box, and the site is optimized to work on mobile as well as desktop devices. https://ASKcRc.org http://twitter.com/crckosher http://cRcweb.org Chicago Rabbinical Council 2701 W Howard Street Chicago Illinois 60645-1303 United States This email was sent to: llevine at stevens.edu Unsubscribe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 22 15:39:14 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:39:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 16:35:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:35:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder Message-ID: I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of things about the seder. I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. The following is from his Introduction to his Shiurim on the Haggadah: >From my earliest youth, 1 remember that children would ask each other on the first morning of Pesach, "How long did your Seder take?" This was true in my youth, and it is still the case today. If the children were to ask me this now, 1 would answer them, "I made sure to eat the afikoman before chatzos (midnight)." According to some poskim, even the recitation of Halle[ should be completed before chatzos. I must point out that the present-day practice in which all the children read from the prepared sheets they received in school is not exactly in accordance with the mitzvah of and you shall tell to your children, etc. (ibid.). The children have initiated a new mitzvah of and you shall tell to your father and mother, which makes it very challenging to perform the mitzvah of achilas matzah and certainly the achilas a{zkoman - before chatzos. YL YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 20:06:44 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:06:44 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . I wrote about an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." R' Micha Berger wrote: > I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the > da'as of the maqneh. A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak, I'm not going to be the one who says that the Rabbanut is wrong for choosing to do it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 23 06:38:53 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:38:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Preparing for the Seder This Year Message-ID: The following is from today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. Being that this year Shabbos is Erev Pesach when should the preparation of the shank bone, charoses, marror, roasted egg, salt water and checking the romaine lettuce take place? A. Seder preparations should be done on Friday, as it is prohibited to prepare on Shabbos for the next day. (This is known as hachana. One may not even nap on Shabbos and say, ?I am resting now to be alert at the Seder?. See M.B. 290.4.) While it would be permitted to prepare some of these items on Saturday night, it would delay the start of the Seder. Much of the seder focuses on the children, and it is important to start the seder as soon as possible before the children fall asleep (M.B.482.1). According to the Vilna Gaon, horseradish should always be grated immediately before the seder so that it will be sharp. Others say it should be grated before Shabbos and stored in a sealed jar to maintain the sharpness as much as possible. If one forgot to prepare horseradish before Shabbos, the grating should preferably be done with a shinui (deviation, such as grating on a paper towel or turning the grater upside down). Romaine lettuce that requires checking for infestation should be checked before Shabbos. One must be careful to drain the lettuce very well. Otherwise, water might accumulate in the bags, and any parts of the lettuce that soaks in water for more than twenty-four hours may not be used for maror (M.B. 473.38). If salt water was not prepared in advance, it can made on Yom Tov (implication of Mishna Berurah 473:21), though some recommend using a shinui by putting the water in the vessel before the salt (Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 118:4). If charoses was not made before Shabbos, the fruit may be grated on Yom Tov, but the nuts should be prepared with a shinui (Shemiras Shabbos Kihilchoso 7:4) (such as crushing in a bag). No deviation is needed when adding the wine (see M.B.495:8). It is preferable to roast the shank bone and egg before Shabbos. If roasted on Yom Tov, they must be eaten on that day of Yom Tov. Since one may not eat roasted meat or chicken at the seder, the shank bone that was prepared Saturday night must be eaten at the Sunday daytime meal (MB 473:32). In general, one may not prepare food on the first day of Yom Tov if the intention is to consume it on the second day or after Yom Tov. (This would constitute hachana, which is forbidden.) As such, another shank bone and egg will have to be roasted Sunday night for the second seder, and the same is true for the preparation of marror, charoses and salt water. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 23 06:58:06 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:58:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 00:59, Prof. L. Levine wrote: > I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck > the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in > the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to > expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. > Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of > things about the seder. > > I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. ... I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the 14th Nissan). This would suggest short Sedarim. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:29:12 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:29:12 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323142912.GC31103@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:06:44PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi > Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef > Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or > were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that > they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). > So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for > Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak... I did't have that big of a problem with the idea of invoking ZlASbF, where the person wasn't going to get hana'ah from the chameitz. Like the people going to RYEH last minute before Pesach. Or my example of someone in a coma. But if people are alive and well and keeping their chameitz around and don't even know it is sold, it isn't a pure zekhus to sell it. They want their chameitz to use it. So, I don't think this precedent addresses my discomfort with the idea. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element http://www.aishdas.org/asp in us could exist without the human element Author: Widen Your Tent or vice versa. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:57:37 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:57:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323145736.GD31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 01:58:06PM +0000, allan.engel at gmail.com wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night... Assuming they held like R Elazar ben Azariah and like R Eliezer in the two machloqesin discussed on Berakhos 9a. R Aqiva and R Yehoshua hold the mitzvah is until the morning. (The first machloqes is about the word "boqer", the second is how to parse Devarim 16:6 -- do you eat kevo hasemesh (sunset to chatzos), or until mo'eid tzesekha miMitzrayim?) Stam Mishnah Pesachim 10:9 talks about the pesach being metamei the hands after chatzos, because that's when it becomes nosar (TY vilna 71b, TB 120b). Zevachim 37a states that this mishnah is according to R Aqiva. The Rambam (Hil' Qorban Pesach 8:15) says the Pesach is only eaten until midnight kedai leharchiq min ha'aveirah, and deOraisa it's okay all night. So he hold like R Aqiva and R Yehoshua, with the kelal we get from R Gamliel in 1:1 that any mitzvah that is permitted all night deOraisa has a derabbanan making it lekhatchilah before chatzos, leharciq min ha'aveirah. So, whether they were very careful with a safe estimate or chatzos-ish was good enough depended on who they held like. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 23 07:46:28 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:46:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: From a letter to the editor: Although abortion is not necessarily considered to be an act of murder, it is nonetheless prohibited in accordance with Halakha (Jewish law). The statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect, as well. Any modern ruling is based on our teachings that go back to our receiving the Torah at Mount Sinai. The laws that we follow are g-d given and not something that the Jewish people came up with in their 40 years in the desert. The author clearly has no grasp on our true heritage and unfortunately feels that she can opine in an area where she has no expertise. Me- I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? CKVS Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 08:55:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:55:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323155513.GE31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 02:46:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness > of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," > is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a > way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) > that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? There are cases where halakhah grows to cover new situations. In many of them we could have extrapolated very different pesaqim for the new from what exists already. Like, in the case of electricity on Shabbos. So, halakhah grows. Changes in facts on the ground don't drive an "evolution" of halakhah. They're really just a non-obvious case of the above. The whole point of such changes isn't that we switched sides on a machloqes, but that the side chosen in the past doesn't work in the new case. So we need to grow new halakhah for the new situation. Even if on most levels it feels like we're doing the same thing but with a new pesaq. Like educable deaf-mutes. We didn't do away with din cheireish. And anyone uneducable because they can neither hear nor talk would qualify. We just don't have too many people like that any more. (RHS, for example, includes the pesi, the sane but intellectually diabled, as cheireish not shoteh. With implications (e.g.) WRT gittin after brain injury.) And then there are cases of actual evolution, where we are following new pesaqim. Halakhah evolves but according kelalei pesaq. Of course, kelalei pesaq are themselves subject to pesaqim, so they could evolve as well. And precedent isn't the only kelal in pesaq. Or, if precedent shifts unconsciously, mimetically. Like an increase in the number of people who just take it for granted that they should look to the soft-stringencies (baal nefesh yachmir and such) in the MB for their rulings rather than the MB's pesaqim or the AhS's. Or RMF grows in esteem, and LORs shift from R Henkin's pesaqim to spending more time with IM. The publishing (and new editions) of Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhasa similarly changed which pesaqim the LOR spends time analyzing, and which get accepted. So, rulings can in principle change. That was a very legal description. R/Dr Moshe Koppel convinced me of a very Rupture-and-Reconstruction-esque understanding of how halakhah evolves, in which dinim are more like laws of a language. So, at Har Sinai, we didn't need as many pesaqim. We were fully emersed in the halachic language, and had a native speaker's ear for what sounds right. And a good poet, a navi, can know just how and when the rules can be occasionally bent or even more rarely broken. But as we lose that culture we become more like English as a second language students, who need more rules. (And we have no idea what's valid poetic license.) And so, as we lose culture halakhah gains formality and rigidity. A steady shift from a mimetic "sounds right" to a textual law book. Until a rupture can cause a major step in this progression. Moshe dies, laws are lost, Osniel ben Kenaz is meyaseid them again. Numerous dinim were similarly codified by Anshei Keneses haGedolah, this is R/Dr Koppel's take on shakhechum vechazar veyasdum. And then we needed a mishnah, an actual structured code to memorize. Then shas, then writing them down... then rishonim wrote codes, and to add my own example -- the way the AhS and then MB were embraced. That is a kind of evolution where the range of valid practices narrow for a situation that didn't change nor did we learn more about the situation. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:28:39 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:28:39 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Evolved" implies an improvement, to a form more adapted to survival and therefore better. The Jewish view of the way halacha has changed over the years is one of devolution; both when we become more lenient because we don't care as much, and when we become stricter because we need it to correct our tendency to leniency, or because we have lost the knowledge on which our ancestors' leniency depended ("ein anu beki'in"). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:17:14 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:17:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f754e36-46c3-705d-e762-e28417b4da88@sero.name> On 23/3/21 9:58 am, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa > (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the > 14th Nissan). Not necessarily. Sinch chatzos is only a geder to prevent it running past dawn, people may have been generous in calculating it, knowing that if they ran over it by a little it was no big deal. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 23 10:48:22 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:48:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat. I turned to Rabbi Eli Gersten who wrtites the OU's Halacha Yomis Column this very question and I forward his answer with his permission. Question: Regarding: Halacha Yomis - Prepping The Seder Plate Since Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat, why can't Hakhanot for the Seder be done on Shabbat? Yiyasher Kochacha for your informative and lucid articles Chak Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh Answer: Yes, and No. See below what the Chayei Adam [Hilkhot Shabbat U-Moadim, sec. 153:6] writes about being maichen on Shabbos or Yomtov for a davar Mitzvah. There are many rules. Only for a dvar mitzvah, and even then only partial hachana, and done with a shinuy, and not close to end of Shabbos, so it is not obvious... ??? ??? ??? ?-? (????? ??? ???????) ??? ??? ???? ? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????. ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ??????? ???? ???, ??? ????. ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ???? (????? ?? ??? ???? ?"? ???? ???' ??"? ???? ?' ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?' ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?"? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????"? ????? ???? ?? ?' ?"? ????? ?? ????? ??' ??"? ?? ?????? ??' ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??"?), ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????. ??? ???? ?????"? ????? ??"? ??"? ???"? ????? ????? ??????? ????, ?? ??????? ????. ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????. ????? ??? ????? ??"? ?? ???? ??' ???? ??"? ?"?. ???? ?? ??"? ??"? ?? ??"? ????? ????? ??"? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????. ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???, ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ?? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????, ??? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????, ?? ????. ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????. ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????. Rabbi Eli Gersten Rabbinic Coordinator 212-613-8222-phone Gerstene at ou.org Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 16:47:46 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323234746.GC24196@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 05:48:22PM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From > Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often > permitted on Shabbat. I specifically brought up starting at sheqei'ah instead of waiting for tzeis because it then involves two factors and there is STRONG consensus to allow: shevus bein hashemeshos, and lidevar mitzvah. No new sources since last time. Just pointing out that The answer from R Eli Gersten of OU's Halacha Yomis doesn't actually help me understand why we cannot start setting the seder table at sheqi'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When we are no longer able to change a situation http://www.aishdas.org/asp -- just think of an incurable disease such as Author: Widen Your Tent inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF ourselves. - Victor Frankl (MSfM) From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Tue Mar 23 19:35:46 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 02:35:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: <278FC3E1-165C-4DFE-89FF-DA7AD035BF6B@tenzerlunin.com> "I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts?? My thought is that Jewish law is too complex to sum up in a letter to the editor even if everyone reading it is Orthodox. And, of course, Jews who are not Orthodox have a different view of Jewish law. Thus, to say in a letter to the editor that "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so? is correct or incorrect is an exercise of futility. Joseph From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:54:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:54:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Egg Matza on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In last week's issue of Ami magazine (4 Nisan, #510) Rabbi Moshe Taub's column is about Shabbos Erev Pesach. On page 162, he gives ideas for how to do the seudos, writing: "B. Use egg matzah. This would only work for Ashkenazim,..." Why would this not work for Sefaradim? Do they hold that egg matza is not pas habaa bkisnin? Do they hold that Pas habaa bkisnin remains mezonos even when one is kovea seuda on it? Maybe it's just not practical to eat 3-4 kebtitzos of it. Any other ideas? thanks Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 06:38:09 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:38:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Some people do not want to have any chametz on the table Shabbos erev Pesach. Can kosher for Pesach egg matzos be used for lechem mishneh? A. Egg matzah is in the category of pas ha?ba b?kisnin (bread-like items that are usually eaten for a snack). Ordinarily, if one eats egg matzah the bracha is borei minai mezonos, unless it is part of a substantial meal. Nonetheless, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe OC 1:155) writes that if egg matzah is used for lechem Mishnah for a Shabbos meal, the bracha is hamotzi. One should make sure to eat at least a kibaiya (a little more than 2 fl. oz) of egg matzah, in addition to other foods that will be served at the meal. According to many opinions egg matzah can only be eaten as long as chometz can be consumed, which is the end of the fourth hour. The Rema (OC 444:1) writes that in our communities, egg matzah is not eaten on Pesach. Therefore, on erev Pesach one should fulfill shalosh seudos with fruit. The implication of Rema is that egg matzah may not be eaten on erev Pesach in the afternoon. However, the Chok Yaakov (444:1) writes that it is possible that the Rema only meant that one is not required to find egg matzah for Shalosh Seudos since it was uncommon in their communities, but if one had egg matzah it may be eaten. The Sharei Teshuva (444:2) as well writes that there is a basis to be lenient. Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doniels at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:30:39 2021 From: doniels at gmail.com (Danny Schoemann) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:30:39 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months Message-ID: Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles with the source of the name Marcheshvan. Online at https://www.sefaria.org.il/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Even_HaEzer.126.17 (Interestingly enough, in 126:19 he says there's a Kometz under these months, Nison, Iyor, Sivon, Marcheshvon, Shvot, Ador.) Kol Tuv - Danny On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, R' Brent Kaufman wrote: >> Now that the ancient pantheons of gods have been brought up, can anyone >> give an explanation for why the we name our months after Babylonian gods? RMB replied: > Of the ones we know translations for, only Tammuz. Warach Dumuzu means "the month of [the god] Tammuz". > This month, Warach Samnu, which becomes Marcheshvan when mem and yud/vav swap during the borrowing, simply means "8th month". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 03:39:37 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:39:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement Message-ID: The fact it that the Shabbatzi Tzvi movement swept the Jewish world. Many important rabbonim became his followers. For example, see my article "Recife - The First Jewish Community in the New World" The Jewish Press, June 3, 2005, page 32. Glimpses into American Jewish History Part 3. The concluding paragraph there is *After finishing this article I discovered that Rabbi Isaac Aboab da Fonseca was apparently a follower of Shabbtai Tzvi. (See www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. jsp?artid=344&letter=A#810, The Sabbatean Prophets by Matt Goldish page 33, and Sabbatai Sevi by Gershom Scholem, pages 520-522.) To put it mildly, I was shocked, given the greatness of Rabbi Aboab. However, it made me realize how strong the messianic movement in the 17th century must have been to gain adherents of Rabbi Aboab`s caliber. Jacob Sasportas was one of the most violent antagonists of the Shabbethaian movement; he wrote many letters to various communities in Europe, Asia, and Africa, exhorting them to unmask the impostors and to warn the people against them. However, I do not believe that he was considered a gadol by many. So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 10:52:04 2021 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:52:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) In-Reply-To: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> References: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. For example, at https://baisdovyosef.com/2861-a-clean-slate-on-clean-hands/ Rabbi Bartfeld quotes him as stringent on foaming soap. My chevrusa asked Rabbi Felder from Toronto to ask him about this, and he said he is mattir whipped cream from a can on Shabbos /v'harei ha'devarim kal va'chomer/. KT, CKvS, YGB On 3/22/2021 6:39 PM, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%20all.doc?dl=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Avodah mailing list > Avodah at lists.aishdas.org > http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:30:10 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:30:10 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:39:37AM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for him. So, those who wanted to believe had who to rely on. (Kind of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it actually is cosidered "a thing".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Circumstances don't make a person, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they reveal a person. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:34:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:34:22 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193422.GB16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 05:30:39PM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote: > Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles > with the source of the name Marcheshvan. It his conclusion of that discussion says that he considers these explanations derashos, because RYME writes "Amnam be'eemes ein doreshin besheimos". So, I don't think he is repeating them as possible sources as much as derashos some find meaningful. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 13:31:29 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:31:29 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 03:30 PM 3/24/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > >There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei >hador. Didn't help. There was not a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Jacob Sasportas was the one who had the courage to come out against the movement. He was essentially a loan voice. Others either went along with the movement or said nothing. R. Eybeschutz was himself suspected of being a follower of ST. in fact, I believe that his son outwardly became a follower. Whether R. Eybeschutz was indeed a follower was never fully determined. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 17:10:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] R. Eybeschutz and ST In-Reply-To: <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1B.B0.11863.285DB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:24 PM 3/24/2021, micha at aishdas.org wrote: >I grew up living around the corner from the home of R SZ Leiman. He davened >(davens?) in the shteibl where my father sheyichyeh was president. I kind of >heard this story before, in a lot more detail. Which is why my post got >written to begin with. > >You are mistaken. The RYE vs RYE fight was one of many. Keep in mind that Rabbi Eybeschutz was born in 1690, long after Shabbatai Tzvi converted to Islam. Indeed ST died in 1676. Hence he could not have been involved in any discussion about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. Rabbi Yaakov Emden was born in 1697, so he also could not have been involved in any discussions about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz Already in Prague 1724, he was suspected of being a Sabbatean. He even got up on Yom Kippur to denounce the Sabbatean movement, but he remained suspected.[2] Therefore, In 1736, Rav Eybeschutz was only appointed dayan of Prague and not chief rabbi. He became rabbi of Metz in 1741. In 1750, he was elected rabbi of the "Three Communities:" Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbek. In July 1725, the Ashkenazic beit din of Amsterdam issued a ban of excommunication on the entire Sabbatian sect (kat ha-ma?aminim). Writings of Sabbatian nature found by the beit Din at that time were attributed to Rav Eybeschutz [3] In early September, similar excommunication proclamations were issued by the batei din of Frankfurt and the triple community of Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbeck. The three bans were printed and circulated in other Jewish communities throughout Europe.[4] Rabbi Ezekiel Katzenellenbogen, the chief rabbi of the Triple Community [5] was unwilling to attack Rav Eybesch?tz publicly, mentioning that ?greater than him have fallen and crumbled? and that ?there is nothing we can do to him? [6] However, Rabbi Katzenelenbogen stated that one of the texts found by the Amsterdam beit din "Va-Avo ha-Yom el ha-Ayyin? was authored by Rav Jonathan Eybesch?tz and declared that the all copies of the work that were in circulation should be immediately burned. [7]As a result of Rav Eybeschutz and other rabbis in Prague formulating a new (and different) ban against Sabbatianism shortly after the other bans were published, his reputation was restored and Rav Eybeschutz was regarded as having been totally vindicated.[8] The issue was to arise again, albeit tangentially, in the 1751 dispute between Rav Emden and Rav Eybeschutz. Sabbatian controversy Rav Eybesch?tz again became suspected of harboring secret Sabbatean beliefs because of a dispute that arose concerning the amulets which he was suspected of issuing. It was alleged that these amulets recognized the Messianic claims of Sabbatai Zevi.[9] The controversy started when Rav Yaakov Emden found serious connections between the Kabbalistic and homiletic writings of Rav Eybeschutz with those of the known Sabbatean Judah Leib Prossnitz, whom Rav Eybesch?tz knew from his days in Prossnitz.[2] Rabbi Jacob Emden accused him of heresy.[9] The majority of the rabbis in Poland, Moravia, and Bohemia, as well as the leaders of the Three Communities supported Rav Eybesch?tz: the accusation was "utterly incredible"?in 1725, Rav Eybesch?tz was among the Prague rabbis who excommunicated the Sabbateans. Others suggest that the Rabbis issued this ruling because they feared the repercussions if their leading figure, Rav Eybesch?tz, was found to be a Sabbatean. Rabbi Jacob Emden suggests that the rabbis decided against attacking Eybeschutz out of a reluctance to offend his powerful family and a fear of rich supporters of his living in their communities [10] The recent discovery of notarial copies of the actual amulets found in Metz and copying the amulets written by Rav Eyebeschutz support Rav Emden's view that these are Sabbatean writings.[11] In 1752, the controversy between Rav Emden and Rav Eybesch?tz raged.Clashes between opposing supporters occurred in the streets drawing the attention of the secular authorities.[12] Rav Emden fled. The controversy was heard by both the Senate of Hamburg and by the Royal Court of Denmark. The Hamburg Senate quickly found in favour of Rav Eybeschutz.[13] The King of Denmark asked Rav Eybeschutz to answer a number of questions about the amulets.Conflicting testimony was put forward and the matter remained officially unresolved[14] although the court imposed fines on both parties for civil unrest and ordered that Rav Emden be allowed to return to Altona.[15] At this point Rav Eybeschutz was defended by Carl Anton, a convert to Christianity, but a former disciple of Rav Eybesch?tz.[16] Rav Emden refused to accept the outcome and sent out vicious pamphlets attacking Rav Eybeschutz.[17] Rav Eyebeschutz was re-elected as Chief Rabbi. In December of that year, the Hamburg Senate rejected both the King's decision and the election result. The Senate of Hamburg started an intricate process to determine the powers of Rav Eybesch?tz, and many members of that congregation demanded that he should submit his case to rabbinical authorities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Mar 24 20:30:38 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 23:30:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <018e01d72127$39a11c60$ace35520$@touchlogic.com> RYGB writes.I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. I have personally been present multiple times when Rabbi Bartfeld discusses his questions w RSM. RB often will write them up, and then review his written answer (if complex) with RSM a second time. I can't promise that broken telephone has never occurred, but the process is pretty error free. Offhand I have only found one RB psak that was different than what RSM told me personally (wearing snowshoes where there is no eruv). It is possible that RSM has changed his mind on that issue (it has been 25yrs+ since I asked the original shaylah) As for your question, I personally have discussed whipped cream from a can on Shabbos with RSM and it is true that he is matir, and is also not concerned with the shape (round, T, etc) formed in the whipped cream by the tip either. As for your question from foaming soap, yesh l'tareitz KT, CKvS, MC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Mar 24 10:18:29 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:18:29 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] Correct Spelling Of Foreign Terms In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 24, 2021 02:33:32 pm Message-ID: <16166243090.4D54BC1.92753@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came >> to the Shabbatai Movement? >> > > Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > > There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei > hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for > him. So, those who wanted to believe had who[m] to rely on. (Kind > of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it > actually is co[n]sidered "a thing".) > I don't remember whether I have said this before on this mailing list. If I have, I apologize for the redundancy. The Hebrew words for kimono and sushi are (I am guessing with strong confidence) "kimono" and "sushi". They are foreign terms, describing foreign things, and when we speak Hebrew, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought these terms into our language. (To be more pedantically correct, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought those terms into our language, to the extent that we are able to imitate them. Our ancestors, for example, could not pronounce foreign words that begin with a shva nax, like Platon and specularia and Xshawerosh, but they did the best they could.) The people who believe in Das Torah do not pronounce the word with a pharyngeal, or even a glottal, stop. They pronounce it "Das Torah". And, since Das Torah is a foreign concept, that does not exist in traditional Judaism, it should be pronounced the way it is pronounced by the people who brought the term into our language, for the same reason that we pronounce kimono "kimono", and sushi "sushi". And when we write it with the Latin alphabet, we should write the first word with one 'a', not with two, showing the same fidelity to its correct pronunciation that we do with any other foreign word. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 13:44:52 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:44:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: . R' Yitzchok Levine quoted the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis <<< Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. >>> I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? Do other ingredients affect this? I have always presumed that all kinds of Matza Ashira are a subset of Pas Habaa Bkisnin, excluding any and all Chometz. In other words, flour and whatever you want except water. Am I mistaken? Is the definition more complicated than that? (Note: I was surprised to find such a wide variety of recipes for egg matza. (We had a large crowd on Erev Pesach, so I bought 4 different boxes so people could sample the different flavors.) Streit's has apple cider and eggs. Aviv Egg Matzah has apple juice, egg, and sugar. Aviv Egg & Onion has an unnamed "pure fruit juice" with sugar, onion powder and egg. Manischewitz contains "pure apple or grape juice" and eggs.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 30 18:49:03 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:49:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30/3/21 4:44 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah > ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it > matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? According to the Rambam, 6:5, Matza is only defined as Ashira if it's made with wine, oil, honey, or milk, but if it's made with Mei Perot it's still Lechem Oni. https://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3506.htm#6 -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 08:30:05 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] To Atone for All our Sins Message-ID: At the Seder, after Dayenu, we have a paragraph in which Dayenu is summarized. "He took us out of Mitzrayim... and He fed us manna... and He brought us to Har Sinai, etc etc and He built the Beis Habechira for us, to be m'chaper for our avonos." My daughter-in-law asked: Why do we need those last words? Let the list end simply, like Dayenu itself did: "... and He built the Beis Habechira for us [full stop]." Or, if some sort of editorializing is needed, let it be on a positive note: "... where we can be close to Him" or "...where He can dwell among us." But at this point in the Seder, (arguably) the very last words of Maggid, where we have finally completed our trip from Genai to Shevach, and from Yagon to Simcha, why do we sully the waters by mentioning our sins (even if the context is forgiveness)? My only guess is that these words serve as a bookend to Maggid's start ("In the beginning we were idolators"), but that doesn't help much; is this bookend really needed, or even helpful? Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhecht at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 13:11:38 2021 From: rhecht at gmail.com (Rafael Jason Hecht) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:11:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Techeiles and Bal Tosif Message-ID: Does anyone know if there are any issues regarding Bal Tosif when wearing the new Techeiles today? (As an aside, one speaker who will address this issue is R' Chaim Twerski - https://www.techeiles.org/yom-iyun). Thanks and Good Shabbos, Rafi Hecht *rhecht at gmail.com* ------------------------------------------------------- *LinkedIN:* *http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rafihecht* *Facebook:* *http://www.facebook.com/rhecht* *Twitter:* *https://www.twitter.com/#!/rafihecht* *Personal Site:* *www.rafihecht.com* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Jan 3 05:31:30 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2021 08:31:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? Message-ID: At 09:49 PM 1/2/2021 ,R Micha Berger wrote: >The AhS (se'if 4) gives a reason to put a gartl on even if you are >wearing a belt. The pasuq reads "Hakhon liqras E-lokhekha Yisrael". >The gemara (Shabbos 10a) gives examples of such hakhanos. The AhS brings >down this gemara earlier (se'if 1) and refers to it here. > >Putting on a gartl has become a traditional way to prepare oneself to >meet the RBSO, and even if today's fashion makes it rarely necessary >for ein libo ro'eh es ha'erva, the AhS believes the practice should not >be stopped. > >And that's from the Litvisher poseiq known for finding meqoros for >justifying minhag! I would guess that in Litta, gartelach were far more >common than among today's "Litvish". I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off his tie and used it as a gartel for davening. Rav Schwab said, "He should have left his tie on his neck. He already had a separation between his upper and lower body, since he was wearing a belt. Wearing a tie is appropriate for davening" I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should wear them out. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 07:14:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:14:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103151439.GB20407@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 03, 2021 at 08:31:30AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off > his tie and used it as a gartel for davening.... Yes, it could be that dressing fit for a melekh when speaking to the Melekh Malkhei hamlakhim is more important than putting on a gartel if you are already wearing a belt. Not really relevant to whether one should wear a gartel when there is no such trade-off. > I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After > all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their > tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should > wear them out. Mah inyan shemitah eitzel Har Sinai? The MB and AhS are very different books. One of the more spoken about differences is that the MB is a survey of acharonim who post-date the standardized SA page. The MB therefore leans toward clean-slate theory. He doesn't give much weight to centuries of accepted practice. So, the MB could say something about wearing tzitzis out that no one did. (Also, because he tells you the book is a survey of later sefarim, there is no reason to believe he expected people to follow his seifer lemaaseh. And thus it is less surprising that the CC himself didn't always follow what was written there.) The AhS is famous for finding how accepted practice is theoretically sound. (When possible, of course.) If some hold a gartel is necessary and some not, so that both sides are sound pesaqim, the AhS will almost always side with whatever is being done. Thus, the AhS's pesaq is evidence of what Litvaks held, whereas the MB's pesaq isn't. It's a methodology difference between the two works discussed on-list repeatedly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The goal isn't to live forever, http://www.aishdas.org/asp the goal is to create so mething that will. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 3 06:39:18 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 14:39:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Shimon Schwab on Chillul Hashem Message-ID: The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash pages 191 to 193. Note his message to the embezzler! Living in Caius America, the malchus shel chessed, only strengthens the Jew's obligation to create a kiddush Hashem. The Rav taught that every form of chillul Hashem decreases awareness of the Divine presence in this world. If the perpetrator is supposedly an observant Jew or, worse, a so-called Torah scholar, then the offense is that much greater. He would ask: "How can a person who has cheated his neighbor or defrauded the government have the audacity to stand in front of the congregation and recite Kaddish, a prayer for sanctifying G-d's Name in the world?" The Rav's greatest fear was of a chillul Hashem. On his checks, he never used the title "Rabbi." He told me that he was always concerned that if, G-d forbid, a check were to bounce, "Rabbi" would add to the chillul Hashem. Many years ago, a shameful scandal erupted around a Jewish businessman who was tried for embezzlement. Influential members of the embezzler's community approached Rav Schwab with a plea that he do what he could to save the man from prison. Rav Schwab became extremely agitated. He pointed out that the man's behavior, widely publicized in the media through the printed word and the television screen, had caused a tremendous chillul Hashem; the man had become .a virtual rodef of Kial Yisrael, because Jews everywhere would suffer aniti-Semitism due to his actions. He forthrightly told the visitors that the embezzler deserved to sit in prison for a long time. But he pleaded with them to give the embezzler a message: The m;111 should shave off his beard and take off his yarmulke when appearing i11 court or on television, because by wearing these religious accoutremenh, he would be creating a new chilluf Hashem every day and would be a living disgrace for the Jewish People. In Selected Writings, Rav Schwab wrote extensively on the topic of chilul Hashem: "If one steals from a non-Jew, swears falsely and dies, his death does not atone for his sin because of chillul Hashem (Tosefta Bava Kamma 10). Let us repeat. The profaners and desecrators give us all a rotten name, aiding and abetting our many adversaries and antagonizing our few friends. Therefore, no white-washing, no condoning, no apologizing on behalf of the desecrators. Let us make it clear that anyone who besmirches the sacred Name ceases to be our friend. He has unwittingly defected from our ranks and has joined our antagonists, to make us suffer in his wake. And -noblesse oblige- the more prominent a man in Orthodox Jewish circles, the more obligated he must feel to observe the most painstaking scrupulousness in his dealings with the outside world." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 05:32:03 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 08:32:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Spoiler alert: The reason I'm asking is that I have found some evidence (within Chazal) that a besula *can* become pregnant from her first act. But I don't want to expound on that evidence pointlessly, so I'll come forward only if there really is such a Chazal. Thanks in advance. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 08:36:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 11:36:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai Message-ID: . About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring how authoritative the targumim are. This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the first pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, and in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In my opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that a translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. So I decided to post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear in Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were probably his own. M'inyan l'inyan b'oso inyan... I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer Bereshis (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* translates it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". It's not until Sefer Shemos that Onkelos changes his style. Never again does he leave Ivri as Ivri; we are (or are becoming) a nation, and it seems that Onkelos wants his audience to be able to identify with that nation, by unambiguously translating it as Yehudi. This is true in Shemos 1:15, 1:16, 1:19, 2:6, 2:7, 2:11, 2:13, 3:18, 5:3, 7:16, 9:1, 9:13, and 10:3. (After Parshas Bo, the word Ivri does not appear again in the Torah, with three exceptions: Shmos 21:2, and twice in Devarim 15:12. All three of those are in the context of an Eved Ivri, and Onkelos translates "Ivri" as "Bar Yisrael." I find this to be a very reasonable change: If Onkelos had used either "Ivri" or "Yehudi", then the result would have been ambiguous, possibly meaning an eved who is *owned* by a Jew. By translating as "Bar Yisrael" in those cases, it clearly refers only to an eved who *is* a Jew.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 10:04:47 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 13:04:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Existing practice driving halacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103180447.GA5628@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 07:34:51AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > There's a recurring discussion on the list about the mechanism for > existing Jewish practice being a source for ongoing psak halacha. In view > of which I thought it useful to share an essay by R Hutner in Pachad > Yitzchak on Chanuka, maamar 14. He posits that there are two distinct > drivers of the obligation to maintain any given takana... Isn't this a different topic? Taqanos and gezeiros are dinim derabbanan. And the source of our obligation here would be the source for considering a new halakhah as binding: > the beis din concerned and the extent to which Klal Yisrael accepts and > keeps the takana. Each works independently. But pesaq is an interpretation of existing din. The AhS, noted for his support of minhag Yisrael (as I recently noted yet again on another thread), doesn't pasqen that married women don't have to cover their hair. Instead, he talks about how sad it is that this is the norm, and dicusses the impact of that norm on hilkhos qeri'as Shema. (Seeing a married woman with uncovered hair isn't a distraction when the site is commonplace, and therefore saying Shema in that situation is permitted.) Speaking of the AhS... I have been watching through this round of AhS Yomi, and I don't have a clear picture of his position yet. Sometimes it seems that RYME supports minhag Yisrael for "im lo nevi'im heim" or "she'eiris Yisrael lo yaaseh avlah" type reasons. Collectively, we have siyata diShmaya. At other times it seems RYME is resting on the authority of the centuries of posqim who allowed the practice to flourish. Not directly on the masses, but using common practice as evidence of a silent majority of formal sources. > However there's an important distinction in the mechanism by which > each works. The beis din's takana works through da'as, ie the conscious > decision to enact a practice. In contradistinction, acceptance of any > given practice by klal yisrael works specifically without da'as... Brilliant! The masses are the keepers of mimetic tradition. The second we think about it and plan, it's textual / formal tradition, and requires the expertise of rabbanim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A sick person never rejects a healing procedure http://www.aishdas.org/asp as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what Author: Widen Your Tent other people think when dealing with spiritual - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF matters? - Rav Yisrael Salanter From mgluck at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 16:51:49 2021 From: mgluck at gmail.com (Moshe Y. Gluck) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 19:51:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: R' AM: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? > And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? > > Yevamos 34a. KT, MYG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:07:30 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:07:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fw: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________ The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:23:00 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:23:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? Message-ID: Yesterday my 5-year-old grandson Yisroel Meir Levine ask me the following question. "Zaidie, why do they break a plate and a g;ass at a Chasanah?" A google search yields The breaking of the glass holds multiple meanings. Some say it represents the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Others say it demonstrates that marriage holds sorrow as well as joy and is a representation of the commitment to stand by one another even in hard times I told him about the destruction of the Temple. (I did not give him the cynical reason that I have heard, namely, "This is the last time that the chosson gets to put his foot down!"?) I had no idea why the mothers of the chosson and kallah break a plate as part of making tenaim. A goggle search yields https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/tenaim-the-conditions-of-marriage/ An Old Ceremony From the 12th to the early 19th century, tenaim announced that two families had come to terms on a match between their children. The document setting out their agreement, also called tenaim, would include the dowry and other financial arrangements, the date and time of the huppah [the actual wedding ceremony], and a knas, or penalty, if either party backed out of the deal. After the document was signed and read aloud by an esteemed guest, a piece of crockery was smashed. The origins of this practice are not clear; the most common interpretation is that a shattered dish recalls the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and it is taken to demonstrate that a broken engagement cannot be mended. The broken dish also anticipates the shattered glass that ends the wedding ceremony. In some communities it was customary for all the guests to bring some old piece of crockery to smash on the floor. There is also a tradition that the mothers-in-law-to-be break the plate?a symbolic rending of mother-child ties and an acknowledgment that soon their children will be feeding each other. After the plate breaking, the party began. Does anyone have any more insight into the reason for breaking a plate? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Jan 3 15:49:09 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:49:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0664acd2-f84a-e6f5-b3bb-9355bb8c7e6d@sero.name> On 3/1/21 8:32 am, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me?to that > chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Yes, it is definitely a maamar chazal, found in several places, e.g. Yevamos 34a, Brereshis Raba 45, Yalkut Shimoni Bereshis 16:4. Exceptions include Hagar, Lot's daughters, Tamar, *perhaps* Leah, -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 3 10:45:10 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:45:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? ----------------------------------------------------- ??"? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? (??) ?????? ???' - ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??????: Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Sun Jan 3 22:46:33 2021 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 01:46:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish impact Message-ID: Pirkei Avot Ch. 5 lists several worldwide calamities that God causes or allows to occur in response to Jewish actions or inactions, including ?dever? (plague/pestilence). It is possible that Avot only refers to Israel, not the world, despite the language, ?comes to the world.? Question - is there any source for this ethic being limited to those sins and calamities listed there, or the contrary, for the ethic being extended to sins or calamities not listed there? From sholom at aishdas.org Mon Jan 4 16:27:11 2021 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 19:27:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RAM wrote: > This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the > first > pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, > and > in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In > my > opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to > explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that > a > translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. I don't understand the stira. As I learned it: Onkelos was explaining based on a Torah-mi-Sinai *understanding*. > So I decided to > post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear > in > Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were > probably > his own. I was unaware that folks thought otherwise! > I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It > turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer > Bereshis > (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* > translates > it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". I have a Sefer on Onkelos (Drazin and Wagner) which explains that in Berehis he renders Ivri literally, but when the family grew into a nation (in Shemos) he used the nation's name known among his contemporaries. The authors say that it's Onkelos' tendency to update the names of nations and places as they were contemporaneously known. FWIW, -- Sholom From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 4 22:28:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 06:28:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 5 03:43:38 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 11:43:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" Message-ID: I have received two interesting responses to my grandson Yisrael Meir"s question. Ruth Stern wrote "To cite Rav Schwab. A broken glass can be re-blown and then repaired. China, once broken, can?t be repaired. The glass is broken to remember the Bais Hamikdash which will be restored. The broken plate represents the fact that the agreement, Tenaim, cannot be canceled without a get." Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky (who seems to have written an article about almost everything) wrote https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-law/whats-the-truth-about-breaking-a-glass-at-a-wedding/ may have some information you are looking for. This is a comprehensive article about this topic and is well worth reading. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 04:31:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 07:31:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: . (Many thanks to R' Joel Rich and R' Moshe Gluck for sending me valuable sources on this topic.) Yevamos 34a (near the bottom) states that "ain isha mis'aberes b'biah rishona - a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations." On 35b, the Gemara challenges this idea, pointing out that in Bereshis 38, Tamar got pregnant from first relations, which were with Yehuda. The answer is that Tamar had damaged her besulim beforehand, so that she would be able to conceive from Yehuda. (The Gemara adds that although Er and Onan had relations with Tamar, they deliberately did it in such a way that her besulim was not damaged.) On Bereshis 19:36, Rashi gives a similar answer regarding Lot's daughters. Rashi accepts the principle that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," and so he says that they did something which enabled them to conceive. (Rashi's wording is different from that in Yevamos, so it's not clear to me whether he's describing the same procedure. And for the purposes of this thread, the exact procedure doesn;t really matter anyway.) I would like to ask about another case where a woman seems to have conceived from her first relations, and that woman is Leah Imenu. According to Rashi on Bereshis 49:3, Reuven was conceived from Yaakov Avinu's very first drop of semen. How can this be? Did Leah have relations with someone else prior to marrying Yaakov? Did Yaakov have prior relations with Leah, rendering her non-besulah, without emitting? Those ideas are *not* very appealing. The alternative would be to suggest that she did something medically that enabled her to conceive Reuven, but whereas Tamar and Bnos Lot had strong incentives to get pregnant immediately, I don't know what Leah's motivation might have been. Perhaps she was afraid that Yaakov would divorce her when Rachel became available, so she tried to lock him in by getting pregnant? Before clicking "send", I searched for an answer yet again, and this time I found it. The Ohr Hachayim on this pasuk (Bereshis 49:3) is very long, and near the very end (paragraph beginning "Gam ramaz") he quotes Rashi and writes: "From this you learn that [Yaakov] did not have relations with [her] besulim, rather he removed [her] besulim with a finger, so that he would not waste that drop. So you have learned that even during the act, physical desire did not overpower him, and his act was a totally holy thing." Alternatively, https://mg.alhatorah.org/Parshan/Rid/Bereshit/49.1#m7e0n6 gives the perush of Rav Yeshaya of Trani (Ri"d) on this pasuk, who answers that according to the Yerushalmi, *all* of the Imahos damaged their besulim. He doesn't states where this Yerushalmi can be found, nor does he explain *why* the Imahos would do that, but I suppose it's reasonable to presume that their logic was the same as the Ohr Hachayim has assigned to Yaakov - to prevent wasted seed. Conclusion: I do not know where Chazal got this idea that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," nor have I seen any proof or evidence for it. We do have three stories in the Torah - Lot's daughters, Tamar, and Leah - which *seem* to disprove it, but all three can be understood in a way that does *not* disprove it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Tue Jan 5 07:35:45 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:35:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E.7A.23873.98784FF5@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 08:36 AM 1/5/2021, Joel Rich wrote: >Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom This gemara does not speak about the Chosson breaking a glass under the chuppah. It talks about breaking an expensive vessel to decrease the levity of those at the chasanah. Once the glass (that is not expensive) is broken by the chosson, all sorts of "joy" breaks out to the extent that some rabbonim have called for eliminating this practice. See Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky's article that I posted a link to. YL From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 6 05:19:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:19:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Kibud Av v'Aim Pointers Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin KIBUD AV V?AIM POINTERS A. Unless a parent is knowingly mochel, it is forbidden to refer to your father or mother by their first name (even when requested for identification purposes) without a title of honor preceding the first name, whether or not they are present and whether or not they are alive. When being called to the Torah, one must refer to his father as Reb or Avi Mori. Whenever referring to one?s mother, one can use the title HaIsha or Moras (Yoreh Deah 240:2) B. When honoring parents, very special care and concern must be taken to do it b?sever ponim yofos?pleasantly (Yorah Deah 240:4). The Sefer Chareidim (Mitzvos Asei of the Heart 1:35) and Rav Chaim Shmulevitz (Sichos Mussar 5731:22) both explain that in order to properly perform the mitzvah, one must mentally gain a true appreciation and honor of their parents and literally view them as royalty. Indeed, the Chayei Adom (67:3) known for his succinctness in recording Halacha, writes that the ?Ikar Kibud??the most important [aspect of] Kibud is that ?He should view his parents as GREAT personages and important dignitaries of the land YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 5 15:51:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:51:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210105235158.GA31982@aishdas.org> I was under the impression that Unqelus was credited with recreating through ruach haqodesh the Aramaic translation of the Torah that Ezra had offered. "Shakechum vechazar veyasdum". See Megillah 3a https://www.sefaria.org/Megillah.3a.7-8 I said "Ezra offered because I presumed that the version the gemara refers to from Nechemiah was the same as in Sanhedrin 21b (and the Y-mi Megillah 10a). That the Torah was given originally in Kesav Ivri and Lashon haQodesh, and given again in the days of Ezra in Kesav Ashuris and Lashon Arami. And the Jews selected Ashuris and LhQ. So that Unqelus was chazar veyasad a veritable second giving of the Torah. Which explains why the Tur holds that Shenayim Miqra veEchad Targum means specifically Targum Unqelus. (Not the only shitah, but it does explain the shitah.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From simon.montagu at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 12:09:34 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 22:09:34 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 8:41 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > . > About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring > how authoritative the targumim are. > Since then I've gone into the topic a bit more. Recommended reading: Menahem Kasher "Targum Misinai" in vol. 17 of Tora Shelema (on HebrewBooks starting at https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=51490&st=&pgnum=325) Refael Posen "Targum Misinai" in Sidra 15 ( https://forum.otzar.org/download/file.php?id=32781) and, lehavdil, my own "'Targum Onkelos is from Sinai': Origins and Interpretations of a Tradition', https://www.academia.edu/44849107/_Targum_Onkelos_is_from_Sinai_Origins_and_Interpretations_of_a_Tradition -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mendel at case.edu Wed Jan 6 07:55:50 2021 From: mendel at case.edu (Mendel Singer) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:55:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47b4bce5-c1a8-f300-1f79-5fb268e8cbc0@case.edu> My answer: So when one of the couple drops and breaks a glass or a china plate they can associate it with happy memories and not fight! (Sure, right). ? mendel From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 7 15:57:06 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> On 7/1/21 6:10 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Seforno on Shenmos 4:11: > "Mi sam peh le'adam -- Who gave man a mouth?": > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > > Notice "nasan" is lashon avar, and "sam" -- to give, and what was given > was the natural preconditions that make teva ha'adam, things like a > mouth that speaks. > > It is an interesting circumlocution by the Seforno that seems to say > that a person's biology wasn't created directly, but via processes > Hashem put into place. I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk. The human nature is to have all the necessary natural equipment, physical and neurological, for talking. About sam (past) vs yasim (future), see Malbim. Moshe's hava amina was that a person by default has no power of speech, and Hashem has to put in each person such a power. Therefore since he wasn't given this power it follows that his shlichus in the world doesn't need it. Therefore jobs that do need it, such as leading the people, aren't for him. Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an individual decision by Hashem. But as people are born, "yasum ilem", Hashem makes some of them dumb. It's dumbness that's unnatural, and therefore the result of an individual decision. So Moshe's dumbness, rather than indicating that his shlichus simply doesn't involve speech, actually indicates that his shlichus *does* include dumbness. It's precisely because he is well-known to be dumb that his eloquence on this occasion will be regarded as a miracle and will make people listen to him. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 8 12:57:43 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:57:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created > the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. > Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man > at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi > sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an > individual decision by Hashem.... Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as the thing exists. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sat Jan 9 20:50:34 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 23:50:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <70511e8b-b7ac-5261-ca01-28b581e27dfa@sero.name> On 8/1/21 3:57 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > >> I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created >> the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. > > He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for > humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce > "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. Because he's talking about human nature, not about individual humans. He didn't give humans a "power of speech", He made human nature such that humans can naturally speak. >> Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man >> at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi >> sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an >> individual decision by Hashem.... > > Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad > background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros > implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is > done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as > the thing exists. First of all, the Malbim was not a chassid, so he's not necessarily consistent with the Baal Shem Tov's ideas. And in fact he does not seem to subscribe to the Baal Shem Tov's shita in Hashgacha Pratis. He often writes that the punishment for not doing mitzvos is that Hashgacha Pratis is withdrawn and one is left to the mercy of the random forces of nature. But in this instance there's no contradiction. He's referring to when the decision was/is made that a person should be speaking or dumb. Hashem tells Moshe that He long ago made the decision that human nature would be to be able to speak, so the fact that an individual can speak doesn't mean anything. It's the default human condition. But "yasum ilem", as He creates each individual, He makes certain individuals deviate from the norm and be dumb, and that is always a deliberate decision regarding that individual, and therefore must be meaningful. The fact that each person, whether speaking or dumb, is being constantly created isn't relevant to this point. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 06:08:05 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 14:08:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? A. A general principal in halacha is ?ain bishul achar bishul? (a cooked food cannot be recooked) and it is permissible to reheat cooked food on Shabbos. Nonetheless, there are situations where this does not apply: * Food may not be put on a stove top or in an oven on Shabbos, even if fully cooked, either because it has the appearance of cooking or because one might adjust the flame. This is known as chazara (returning). * According to most opinions, ain bishul achar bishul applies only to solid food and not to liquids. * To qualify for ain bishul achar bishul, the food must be fully cooked. * According to some (Shulchan Aruch OC 318:5), ain bishul achar bishul does not apply to cooking (with liquid) a food that was previously baked or roasted (without liquid) or vice versa. This is because baking and cooking are different modes and doing one after the other may constitute bishul. As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. The Rema rules that one may not even put bread into a kli sheini, a second vessel. (Liquid that was heated on a fire is known as a kli rishon. If that liquid was transferred to another vessel it is referred to as a kli sheini- a second vessel.) However, the Mishnah Berurah (318:47) writes that one may add bread to a kli shelishi (liquid transferred to a third vessel) because the temperature is diminished. Moreover, the Mishnah Berurah (318:45) writes that if a ladle was used, the ladle may be viewed as the kli sheini, and the bowl is treated as a kli shelishi. As such, bread or matzah meal may be added to soup that was placed in a bowl with a ladle. It should be noted that in general it is questionable if raw food may be added to a kli shelishi on Shabbos. Nonetheless, bread may be placed in a kli shelishi because there is a confluence of two uncertainties: a) does cooking occur in a kli shelishi and b) does ain bishul achar bishul apply to a baked food added to a kli rishon? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Jan 11 10:34:15 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 13:34:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <681a1f57-f0e6-eb30-1316-35145df8d4ad@sero.name> However bagels would be OK, since they have already been boiled. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 09:54:54 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 17:54:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning Message-ID: Secular Studies and Torah Learning The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. ?When I was in the illustrious city of Vilna in the presence of the Rav, the light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, the light of the eyes of the exile, the renowned pious one (may Hashem protect and save him) Rav Eliyahu, in the month of Teves 5538 [January 1778], I heard from his holy mouth that according to what a person is lacking in knowledge of the ?other wisdoms,? correspondingly he will be lacking one hundred portions in the wisdom of the Torah, because the Torah and the ?other wisdoms? are inextricably linked together ?? (From the Introduction to the Hebrew translation of Euclid?s book on geometry, Sefer Uklidos [The Hague, 1780] by R. Barukh Schick of Shklov, one of the main talmidim of the Vilna Gaon.) R. Yhonason Eybeschutz in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi in Torah and Science pages 24-25) writes: "For all the sciences are 'condiments' and are necessary for our Torah, such as the science of mathematics, which is the science of measurements and includes the science of numbers, geometry, and algebra and is very essential for the measurements required in connection with the Eglah Arufah and the cities of the Levites and the cities of refuge as well as the Sabbath boundaries of our cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics] is necessary for the judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are used honestly or fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary for the Sanhedrin to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests; furthermore, the need for this science is great in connection with examining witnesses, who claim they stood at a distance and saw the scene, to determine whether the arc of vision extends so far straight or bent. The science of astronomy is a science of the Jews, the secret of leap years to know the paths of the constellations and to sanctify the new moon. The science of nature which includes the science of medicine in general is very important for distinguishing the blood of the Niddah whether it is pure or impure ? and how much more is it necessary when one strikes his fellow man in order to ascertain whether the blow was mortal, and if he died whether he died because of it, and for what disease one may desecrate the Sabbath. Regarding botany, how great is the power of the Sages in connection with kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too we may mention zoology, to know which animals may be hybridized; and chemistry, which is important in connection with the metals used in the tabernacle, etc." In light of the above, I simply do not understand why some yeshiva boys do not receive an adequate secular education and why secular subjects are disparaged in some circles. On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply.? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 11 22:50:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 06:50:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply. ======================================= 1. Difficult to convince someone whose whole education has been devoted to a different approach AND has been told it is the only acceptable approach. 2. I?ve said , I agree it?s all derivable from Torah but isn?t it a more efficient use of time to get it direct rather than derive it? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 12 05:11:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:11:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? A. A hot pot of soup is a kli rishon (primary source of heat) and one may not add cold water to the pot, since this will cook the water. However, a bowl of soup is a kli sheini (secondary source of heat), and water does not cook in a kli sheini. It would therefore seem that one may add cold water to a bowl of soup. Still, the halacha is not so obvious, since there are also pieces of meat or vegetables in the soup. A solid food transferred to a secondary vessel retains the status of a kli rishon according to some poskim. Perhaps we need be concerned that the hot pieces of vegetable or meat may cook the water. The Pri Megadim (253: Aishel Avrohom 32) writes that it is possible that all agree that hot pieces of meat that are submerged in liquid in a kli sheini have the status of a kli sheini and cannot cook. This appears to be the consensus of many poskim (see Pischei Teshuva YD 94:7 and Kitzos Hashulchan 124:39). Therefore, one may add cold water to soup. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 12 14:05:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210112220532.GA5585@aishdas.org> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 02:08:05PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup >> on Shabbos? ... >> As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup >> that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the >> temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes >> is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. >From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at : Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi (MB 318:45)[10]. Before I share footnote #10, which is long and may lose people's attention, let me cite AhS 318:25 who acknowledges that some are machmir WRT bread, but doesn't consider it iqar. And the Rama, who holds like the Raaviyah, that there is no bishul achar afiyah. So, what the OU says "should not" should really be a CYLOR. Now, back to the PH: [10] Those who do not allow dipping bread into hot soup in a kli sheni follow two stringencies: a) They prohibit cooking after baking; b) they defer to the opinion that many foods are considered kalei ha-bishul and thus can become cooked in a kli sheni. Nevertheless, when serving soup using a ladle, according to Maharil, Pri Hadash, and others, the ladle is considered a kli sheni. Accordingly, the soup bowl is a kli shlishi, and in a kli shlishi there is definitely no prohibition. While Taz and Shakh maintain that the ladle is a kli rishon and MB 318:87 follows this approach, nevertheless this is a case of a twofold doubt, and thus one may be lenient (MB 318:45) as long as the ladle does not remain in the kli rishon long enough to reach the same heat as the vessel itself. Soup nuts may be added to a kli sheni even le-khathila, since they are deep fried and are considered cooked rather than baked (SSK 1:70). Furthermore, this further cooking is not desired, as people do not want the soup nuts to get soggy. According to those who maintain that ein bishul ahar afiya (there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been baked), one may definitely toast challah. Additionally, MA 318:17, Mahatzit Ha-shekel, and Hayei Adam (Zikhru Torat Moshe 24:7) would permit this even for those who are stringent about bishul ahar afiya, since they maintain that baking and roasting are the same. In contrast, some are stringent because they maintain that roasting is different from baking (Pri Megadim, Mishbetzot Zahav 318:7; SSK 1:71; Kaf Ha-hayim 318:78; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:6; Menuhat Ahava vol. 2 ch. 10 n. 154). There is even one opinion that expresses concern that this is considered Makeh Be-fatish (applying the finishing touch) (Rav Pe'alim, OH 2:52). In practice, the lenient position (that roasting and baking are the same) seems the more reasonable one, since if one continues to bake food it dries out, and essentially becomes toasted. Nevertheless, one who chooses to be stringent is commendable. This is the case when it comes to completely toasting the bread, but even those who are stringent would allow warming up bread - even to the point that the surface crisps - because doing so does not make a significant change to the baked state. Rav Pe'alim indeed states this in OH 2:52, and Nishmat Shabbat 318:26 states similarly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The greatest discovery of all time is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp a person can change their future Author: Widen Your Tent by merely changing their attitude. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Oprah Winfrey From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 04:55:09 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 07:55:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely does not cook." When I make a coffee on Shabbos morning, I take the water from the urn and put it into a cup. I then pour this water into another cup which is then a kli shlishi. However, the temperature of the water in the second cup is still very hot. Indeed, if I poured it onto my hand I would get scalded. How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup, the kli shlishi? Not very much. The temperature of the water in the second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not cook? At 05:05 PM 1/12/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at >: > > Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent > in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must > make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a > kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in > a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be > considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi > (MB 318:45)[10]. > From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 13 08:03:48 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 11:03:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On 13/1/21 7:55 am, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > > How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water > in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup,? the > kli shlishi? Not very much.? The temperature of the water in the > second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not > cook? Because that's what the halacha says. E.g. see SA Harav 551:34 who explicitly says that the heat of a keli shlishi or revi'i, even if it is yad soledes bo, has no power to cook, although according to some it still has the power to cause absorption and expulsion. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 11:22:20 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:22:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cooking in a Kli Shlishi Message-ID: <03.F5.14965.3C84FFF5@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://ph.yhb.org.il/en/01-10-07/ There is a third type of vessel known as a kli shlishi. If one pours hot water or hot food from the pot in which it was cooked into another vessel, and from that vessel into a third one, that final container is a kli shlishi. The poskim agree that a kli shlishi is unable to cook anything.[6] [6]. In truth, some Acharonim were inclined to be stringent and avoid putting anything raw and easily cooked into a kli shlishi that is yad soledet bo. Thus states Shevitat Ha-Shabbat, Mevashel 23, based on Yere?im. This is also the position of azon Ish regarding kalei ha-bishul ( Hazon Ish, O 52:19). He maintains that as long as the water is hot, no matter how many times removed the vessel is from the original kli rishon, kalei ha-bishul become cooked. AHS 318:28 states this specifically with regard to tea. According to Chayei Adam 20:4, any vessel whose contents are so hot that they would burn someone is capable of cooking. However, according to most poskim, the principle that Bishul does not apply in a kli shlishi is absolute, and any kind of raw food may be introduced into a kli shlishi. MB 318:47 records this based on Pri Megadim. The accepted explanation is that this was the Sages? assumption ? cooking is inconceivable in a kli shlishi. Further, it seems to me that cooking in a vessel that people do not generally use for cooking would not be prohibited by Torah law, since the Torah prohibition applies only to cooking in the usual manner. Since one normally does not cook in a kli sheni, there is no Torah prohibition of putting raw food into a kli sheni. However, foods that cook easily are often cooked in a kli sheni or even by irui from a kli sheni. Therefore, if one places these foods in a kli sheni or pours water on them from a kli sheni, he transgresses a Torah prohibition. However, not even kalei ha-bishul are generally cooked in a kli shlishi, so there is never a Torah prohibition involved. And since in the vast majority of cases one cannot cook in a kli shlishi, the Sages did not prohibit cooking in one in any case.MA, MB 318:34, and Kaf Ha- chayim ?70 state that the halakha follows the first opinion presented in Tosafot, Shabbat 39a. This opinion states that even though a kli sheni does not cook, one may not place raw food into such a vessel because it resembles cooking. One may, however, add spices, since that does not resemble cooking. This is also the position of Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:5. In contrast, R. Ovadia Yosef, basing himself on a number of Rishonim and Acharonim, writes that the halakha follows the second opinion in Tosafot, according to which there is never a concern of resembling cooking in a kli sheni (Ye aveh Da?at 6:22). Some maintain that since we do not know what foods are considered kalei ha-bishul, we must be stringent and refrain from putting any foods into a kli sheni except those that we know are not kalei bishul (Yere?im; Smag). Others maintain that only specific foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul are a concern (Ran; Tur). Rema 318:5 states that the custom is to be stringent, as do MA 318:18; SAH 318:12; ayei Adam 20:4; MB 318:42; SSK 1:59. SA 318:5 cites both opinions and seems inclined to be lenient. This was the inclination of a number of poskim ? that one need be stringent only with foods that are known to cook easily ( azon Ish, O 52:18; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:3). Yalkut Yosef 318:47 also records this as the position of Rambam and Maharam ibn abib. To simplify the matter, I wrote to be consistently stringent in the case of a kli sheni, and consistently lenient in the case of a kli shlishi. Even though it is agreed that one may not pour from a kli sheni onto kalei ha-bishul, nevertheless we have seen that according to most poskim, most foods are not kalei ha-bishul. Moreover, even those who are stringent consider the prohibition rabbinic, since one does not intend to cook. Additionally, pouring will only cook the outer layer of the food, which is less than the amount required to transgress a Torah prohibition, and according to Rashbam this is not considered cooking at all. Therefore, one should only be stringent and refrain from pouring from a kli sheni in the case of foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 13 11:42:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:42:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210113194249.GA11959@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 07:55:09AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely > does not cook." Me neither. But the melakhah is bishul, not cooking. For example, you have two eggs at the same temperature, one heated by a frying pan that used to be on the fire (toledos ha'ur), the other cooking in the sun (toledos hachamah). One is bishul, the other isn't. Or the hot springs of Teveriah. Chazal knew what they were and how hot the waters are. What they didn't know is whether they were warm from the volcanic processes in the ground of from the sun's heat. And despite the water being in a known resulting state, using the hot water to cook something else may or may not be bishul depending on what heated it. In general, our culture is too fixated on science to "get" halakhah. I've been saying this for a while on my own say-so, but R' David Lapin's "Matmanim" podcast had a few shiurim on this topic as well. (RDL is not to be confused with his older brother, R Daniel. R David studied under his uncle, R Elya Lopian, has semicha from R Unterman, founded the South African Instute of Business Ethics, and came in second in the hunt for a successor for the CR of the UK when R/D/L Sacks z"l retired. Matmanim is a daily 15 min shiur (6:45-7am) in the Raanana Kollel. He finds a hashkafic point, "buried trasure", in the day's daf. https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/1528778.rss Back to the point... ) I phrased it in terms of halakhah being about observed and observable reality. As it's our first-hand experiences -- those we had and those we can be held accountable for if we don't bother checking -- that impact us on the gut level, the deeper places of our psyche where decisions are made. RDLapin talks about Torah dealing with relationships, how we relate to an item, rather than facts about the item. When I emailed RDL about it, neither of us were sure whether we are saying the same thing or if there are subtle differences. Either way, we live in an era where progress is so tied to science and technology, that when we hear a word like "bishul" we look for a scientific definition of cooking. Rather, as Rashi says about cooking toledos hachamah, derekh bishul is part of the definition of the melakhah. But it would never be part of a scientific definition of cooking. To support that broad point with another example -- tal and mayim are two diferent of the 7 liquids. Both are H2O, though. Our leap to a physics or chemistry explanation when the relevant sciences may be more psychology and sociology gets in the way of understanding halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If a person does not recognize one's own worth, http://www.aishdas.org/asp how can he appreciate the worth of another? Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 08:07:27 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 11:07:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos Message-ID: In response to my email about making coffee on Shabbos I received the following query: I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? From https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/08/making-tea-and-coffee-on-shabbos/ Instant tea: Some authorities permit using pre-cooked tea leaves. For example, it would be permitted to pour hot water onto the tea leaves before Shabbos and then to pour more hot water onto the same dry leaves to make tea on Shabbos. Some halachic authorities [14] apply the rule that there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been cooked completely. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [15] accepts this as well, but adds that when one pre-cooks the tea before Shabbos, he must leave the hot water on the tea for a while to make sure that it is fully cooked. However, some halachic authorities [16] forbid this practice because the tea leaves are used purely to extract their taste. Therefore, as long as the tea leaves continue to emit taste, they are not considered already cooked. Keli Sheini and Keli Shelishi As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. However, if something is considered mi???kalei ha???bishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein [23] rule that we do not know what foods are mi???kalei ha???bishul, and therefore we need to be concerned that all foods fall into this category unless explicitly excluded in the Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli sheini, because they might be mi???kalei ha???bishul. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [25] is certain that tea is mi???kalei ha???bishul. However, the Chazon Ish [26] argues that one need not be concerned that a given food is mi???kalei ha???bishul unless an explicit source says that it is. [27] R. Hershel Schachter writes that R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik made tea in a keli sheini because he did not consider tea leaves to be mi???kalei ha???bishul, [28] and R. Schachter himself rules this way as well. [29] A keli shelishi (a tertiary vessel, from which something was poured from a keli sheini) may provide a solution to those who are concerned that tea may cook in a keli sheini. Talmudic sources do not mention such a concept, nor do Rishonim (early authorities) distinguish between keli sheini and keli shelishi. To the best of my knowledge, the only Rishon who talks about a keli shelishi is R. Eliezer of Metz, [30] who explicitly says that a keli shelishi is the same as a keli sheini. Nevertheless, many Achronim (later authorities) [31] rule that a keli shelishi does not cook even food that is mi???kalei ha???bishul, or that one need not be concerned that something is mi???kalei ha???bishul when using a keli shelishi (but they hold that in a keli sheini one should be concerned). However, many halachic authorities [32] disagree. The Chazon Ish [33] argues that there is no basis to distinguish in theory between a keli sheini and a keli shelishi. However, he continues, there may be a practical distinction: the Chayei Adam [34] rules that a keli sheini that is extremely hot (yad nichveis bo) will cook. Based on this, the Chazon Ish says that we use a keli shelishi because by the time the item has been transferred twice, it is probably no longer as hot, and therefore one does not need to be concerned for this opinion of the Chayei Adam. [35] Making Tea Using Essence Mishna Berura [36] states that the best way to make tea on Shabbos is to make essence, meaning a very strong tea, before Shabbos. When one wants to drink tea on Shabbos, he can put hot water in the cup, and then add the cold essence. This solution works according to all views because everyone agrees that water is not mi???kalei ha???bishul and therefore will not cook in a keli sheini. ______________ Let me add the caveat that the Jewish Press often added when it came to matters of Halacha. "One should consult one's local competent Orthodox rabbi." YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 16 16:54:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:54:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210117005419.GD21719@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 11:07:27AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli > Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? > > From > ... > As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary > vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does > not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] > Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was > never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. > However, if something is considered mikalei > habishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in > a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, > [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein > [23] rule that we do not know what foods are > mikalei habishul, and therefore we need to > be concerned that all foods fall into this > category unless explicitly excluded in the > Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is > forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli > sheini, because they might be mikalei > habishul... This interestingly touches on the topic I raised in my earlier email about the difference between the halachic concept of "bishul", which is defined by a set of experiences, and the scientific concept of cooking. Tea leaves don't cook easily. I spoke to importers. Making tea doesn't cook the tea leaves. Never mind "easily cooked", they don't cook at all. Which is why one can cold brew tea or make sun tea, without the water being warm, nowhere near yad soledes bo. One could make an argument that tea leaves are tavlin, flavorings that don't cook. After all, when it comes to halakhos like drinking before davening, tea is just flavored water. And from a scientific perspective, what is happening isn't cooking. BUT, is it bishul? Without a rigorous definition of bishul, we cannot rule out the idea that it includes the speed-up of making tea from hours to minutes that is caused by the water's heat. And for all I know, that as-yet-unspecified defining feature of bishul happens easily with tea leaves. (Or at least the crumbs of those leaves found in tea bags.) So, even while the tea experts say that making tea doesn't cook the leaves, that is not enough to force the conclusion that they aren't qalei bishul! Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Jan 15 06:04:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:04:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one make ices on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one make ices on Shabbos? A. The Dovev Meisharim (siman 55) writes that changing water into ice is forbidden on Shabbos. Moreover, he writes that even if the water was placed in the freezer before Shabbos, if it freezes on Shabbos, the ice would still be forbidden because of muktza. The change in form from liquid to solid turns it into a new entity which is muktza. The Chelkas Yaakov (OC 128) and many other poskim disagree on both these points. Not only is ice that forms on Shabbos not muktza, but it is not clear that there is any prohibition to make ice. This is because one does not actually make ice. All one does is place water in a cold environment and the ice forms on its own. Although one may not chop ice with your hands to actively melt it into water, one may place ice in a bowl and let it melt on its own into water. The same should be allowed in reverse. Water should be allowed to freeze into ice on its own. The Chelkas Yaakov is unsure of this last point, and therefore recommends not making ice on Shabbos unless there is a pressing need. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 26 06:05:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 14:05:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? A. In a previous Halacha Yomis we discussed the prohibition of molid rei?ach (causing the absorption of a fragrance or scent). Our current question revolves around whether this restriction applies to the human body as well. This is a matter of dispute among poskim. The Shevet Halevi (1:137) was asked whether using mouthwash on Shabbos is prohibited because of molid rei?ach. He notes that the Taz (511:8), Magen Avrohom (511:11) and Shulchan Aruch Harav (511:7) restrict washing hands with scented water on Shabbos because of molid rei?ach. Obviously, these poskim hold that molid rei?ach applies to the human body as well. However, the Mishnah Berurah (128:23) writes that many Acharonim did not accept this stringency of not using scented water on Shabbos. For example, the Chacham Tzvi (92) proves that molid rei?ach does not apply to the body, since Shulchan Aruch (OC 322:5) permits rubbing scented sticks between one's fingers to release the scent even though the fingers will absorb the fragrance. Accordingly, the Mishnah Berurah makes the following distinction. Adding scented oil to water on Shabbos is prohibited but washing one's hands with previously scented water is acceptable. Some poskim question whether the leniency of the Mishnah Berurah regarding handwashing with scented water applies to other parts of the body. Some suggest that there is room for greater leniency with respect to hands because the scent dissipates quickly (see Piskei Teshuvos 322:7). However, the Shevet Haleivi equates the entire body to hands and allows the use of mouthwash on Shabbos. Similarly, Shmiras Shabbos K?hilchaso (14:36) allows applying perfume on Shabbos (based on the Mishna Berurah), though he cautions against spraying it on clothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 25 14:14:48 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:14:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government Message-ID: Please see pages 6 - 8 of Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" sIIRC Rav Yisroel Salanter would quietly say the prayer for the government if he wad davening in a place that did not say it. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 24 06:48:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 14:48:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Coming of Moshiach Message-ID: I have posted Rav Shimon Schwab's essay on this topic at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/coming_of_moshiach.pdf This essay was written in 1974. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:42:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:42:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: Why didn't Yeshoshua ask HKB"H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Jan 26 16:03:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:03:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70ec8204-43df-9e0b-41fd-6f365220a817@sero.name> > *Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" On page 5 of this pamphlet the author writes that the hooligans of Berachos 10a who harassed R Meir were not Jewish. He gives no source for this, and I wonder where he gets it. I have always assumed they were Jewish and have never seen anything saying otherwise. If they weren't I would have expected the gemara to say so. As far as the prayer for the king is concerned, historically the fact is that in the Russian empire it was not said except in the large shuls where the Czar was likely to know what was happening. But I understand that in the Austro-Hungarian empire it was said everywhere, because the Jews actually liked the Kaiser, and vice versa. The author claims that "The tefillah does not mention a single king but rather a kingdom, since this applies even when there is a democracy". This is just not the case. Every single siddur I have seen with Hanosen Teshua, except in the USA, uses the sovereign's name. He cites Tiferes Yisrael as his source, but the Tiferes Yisrael does not refer at all to the tefillah that is said, but only to the mishnah that recommends the practice. And he does not mention democracy, even though the USA and France existed in his day; what he says is that the mishnah includes countries that are ruled by a group of leaders. In my opinion this nusach is completely inappropriate to the USA, and those shuls here who wish to pray for the country or for the government should use a different nusach written especially for that country. I have seen such nuscha'os printed in various places, that are not simply rewrites of Hanosen Teshua. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:43:41 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:43:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction Message-ID: Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a brother? What was the value at that point? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 06:27:08 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 16:27:08 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a Message-ID: There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is permitted even though it cooks. 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Many of the Rishonim state explicitly that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a metzius. The Rashba there in Shabbos 34b, the Yeraim quoted by many other rishonim and others. Tosafos there also seems to say this because they explain the difference between a kli rishon and a kli sheini based on metzius, that a kli rishon has hot walls while a kli sheini doesn't. The gemara about kalei habishul seems to support this position. The simple reading of the gemara (39a and other places) is that there are certain things that are easily cooked and you are chayav if you cook them in a kli sheini. If it was a din then how wcould you be chayav by kalei habishul? None of the Rishonim (that I saw) say explicitly that it is a din (however see Tosafos shabbos 42a where they discuss a hot bath and other Rishonim (Ramban, Ritva) which could be interpreted this way). However the Ohr Sameach (hilchos shabbos perek 9) goes with this idea explicitly, and explains it as follows. He says that the gemara states that cooking in halacha is defined as by fire or the result of a fire. He says that a kli sheini is so far removed from the fire that it can't be called toldos haeish and therefore is not considered cooking in halacha. This is similar to the din that cooking in the sun is not considered cooking. He explains that kalei habishul is a gezera because people do cook kalei habishul in a kli sheini therefore they prohibited it m'drabbanan. There are a number of practical differences in halacha regarding this question, I will mention 2 of them: 1. If the kli sheini is really hot. The Chayei Adam based on a Rambam in Maaser Sheni holds that if the kli sheini is boiling hot (if you touch it you will get burned) then the rule of kli sheini ayno mevashel doesn't apply. This is clearly going with 2, that it is a metzius, according to the Ohr Sameach it shouldn't matter. 2. Is there a kula of kli shlishi? The Mishna Berura quotes a Pri megadim who is meikel by a kli shlishi by kalei habishul, that you would be permitted to put them in a kli shlishi. The Chazon Ish and others disagree. they hold that there is no difference between a kli sheini and a kli shlishi based on Tosafos, both have cold walls and both have the same amount of heat. If you hold like 2 then the kula of kli shlishi makes no sense. However according to the Ohr Sameach that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a din and the humra by kalei habishul is only a din drabbanan, then it makes sense to say that the gezera was only made on a kli sheini and not on a kli shlishi. At first glance opinion 1 (din) seems much more logical then 2. It seems very difficult to say that the gemara is telling us a metzius without qualifying it. If the Chayei Adam is right how come the gemara didn't warn us about it. The Chayei Adam's scenario is not so uncommon and leads to an issur d'oraysa. The gemara's statement lends itself to be interpreted as a general principle in halacha not a metzius. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 27 06:54:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:54:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?_Tu=92bishvat_is_the_Rosh_Hashanah_=28n?= =?windows-1252?q?ew_year=29_for_trees=2E_What_does_this_mean=3F?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Thursday, January 28th, will be Tu?bishvat, (the fifteenth day of the month of Shvat). Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? A. There is a seven-year cycle of terumos and ma?aseros (various tithes) for produce that grows in the land of Israel. To determine which tithes must be separated, one must know in which year the produce grew. The calendar year for fruit begins on Tu?bishvat. If a fruit reached a certain stage of development called ?onas ha?maaser? before Tu?bishvat, this fruit belongs to last year?s crop and should be tithed accordingly. Fruit that reaches the stage of ?onas ha?maaser? only after Tu?bishvat, belongs to the new year and must be tithed accordingly. One exception to this rule is the esrog, which is tithed according to the year in which it is picked, regardless of when it reaches ?onas ha?maaser? (Shulchan Aruch YD 331:125-126). Tu?bishvat is relevant outside of Israel as well. Tu?bishvat plays a role in the counting of years as relates to the laws of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years). This will be discussed further in tomorrow?s Halacha Yomis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 16:07:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:07:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128000739.GE25301@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 04:27:08PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli > sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is > permitted even though it cooks. Brisk. > 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in > general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Telzh. Except that I would say, "it isn't mevasheil". You cannot assume bishul has the same limits as cooking. We are talking about a tradition in which a bat is a kind of owf. Let's look at ofos for a second, because I find it easier to illustrate my proposed general rule with a noun. We say that an "owf" is a "bird", but that's really only shorthand. One syllable is much easier to teach with than having to say and write "flying living thing". There is still an empirical fact being described. One needn't say that owf, e.g. in the laws of owfos tehoros, is just a category with no empirical basis. But the fact isn't the one we have an easy at-hand English word. Wrong culture. Similarly here, bishul needn't be some Brisker chalos sheim. But it could be a range of physical changes in a substance defined by the use of fire and not e.g. toledos hachamah. I mean, Chazal knew what changes chamei Teveriah were capable of, they just didn't know how the hot springs were hot. But they still made whether it is mevasheil depend on whether it was heated by the sun or by volcanic processes When you get to a keli sheini, you are at quite a remove from the fire, although the heat must be fire-derived heat. OTOH, when you are dealing with kalei bishul, you are closer to the idea of trigerring a physical change. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger What we do for ourselves dies with us. http://www.aishdas.org/asp What we do for others and the world, Author: Widen Your Tent remains and is immortal. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Albert Pine From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 11:26:42 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:26:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> I don't know each stage of Tu biShvat's evolution. Was it always a holiday? In the gemara, Tu biShvat is more like a shiur -- how do you know which fruit go to which terumos uma'aseros? But by the end of the geonim, tachanun was skipped on Tu biShvat. So, even if it wasn't always a holiday, it started turning into one pretty early. Well before the *publication* (so to speak) of the Zohar. So it's not of Qabbalistic roots. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From driceman at optimum.net Wed Jan 27 16:36:43 2021 From: driceman at optimum.net (David Riceman) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:36:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >> RMB: > > There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > >> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >> sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is >> permitted even though it cooks. > > Brisk. > >> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. > > Telzh. Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos). Many years ago one of my rebbeim suggested that microwaves and solar hot water heaters weren?t bishul d?orayysa because they were uncommon, but that their status might change as they became more common. David Riceman From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 10:18:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Shevat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128181856.GE7499@aishdas.org> I asked on Areivim about the origin of Tu biShvat as a yom tov even before getting to questions about the Tu biShvat Seder and how kosher is the Seifer Chemdas Yamim. Someone emailed me this nice summary in reply. I wanted to share with the chevrah. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5009491 Below is the article from after of a discussion of Tu biShvat in Chazal as a shiur for terumos uma'aseros until they run out of history and talk about contemporary custom. About Chemdas Yamim... it's enough that it is a machloqes acharonim whether the book (1) should be treated as Sabbatean, (2) is kosher because its acceptance by so many Mequbalim Qedoshim that is happens not to contain any of the author's Sabbatean heresy (R Chaim Palaggi, Turkey, 19th cent CE), or (2) is a holy book written by R Yisrael Yaaqov al-Gazi. The way academia is structured, particularly what it takes to get published and publish-or-perish there is a built in bias toward debunking things. Too much depends on coming up with novella and their Truthiness. I am therefore skeptical of an academic consensus that shows that the benighted masses outside their ivory towers are wrong. Could be good scholarship, but there are negi'os. So I wouldn't just assume their conclusions are authoritative. (Truthiness, coined by then comedy news editorialist Stephen Colbert, to describe the things we believe because they sound true because we would like them to be true.) There are numerous examples from Middle Eastern history and Biblical Archeology I can point to, where it seems clear that out of two equally plausible theories, the author was biased to pick the one that would dethrone Yeishu. (Like, did the Judean intelligensia captured with Yechaniah teach them about the idea of a messiah and messianic era, or did we get it from Zoroastrianism? Well, saying it's not in original Judaism devalues Oso haIsh, so...) Even when it comes to some Torah journals, I got tired of picking through the articles that seem so plausible until I realized I liked them because of that feeling superiori to the benighted masses or just some clever and very Truthy. Anyway, here's the relevant half of the Chabad.org post, back on topic about Tu biShvat. Tir'u baTov! -Micha Who "Invented" the Holiday on 15 Shevat? Yehuda Shurpin chabad.org ... Yet, neither the Mishnah nor the Talmud tell us about any special celebrations or commemorations associated with the day. Earliest Celebration One of the earliest sources for the 15th of Shevat being a celebratory day is a pair of ancient liturgical poems that were found in the Cairo genizah, a trove of old Torah texts, documents and manuscripts discovered in the 19th century. The poems, composed by Rabbi Yehuda Ben Hillel Halevi around the 10th century, were meant to be added to the prayer service of the day.[9] In a response to a community that wished to establish a fast day on the 15th Shevat, Rabbeinu Gershom (c. 960-1040) explained that just as one does not fast on the other days that are called "the beginning of the year" in the Mishnah, so too, one does not fast on the 15th of Shevat.[10] Additionally, we find in early sources that one doesn't recite penitential prayers on the 15th of Shevat, just as one doesn't recite them on other holidays.[11] Eating Fruits In addition to not fasting and not reciting any penitential prayers, there is also a custom to eat fruits on this day. The first to mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) in his work Tikun Yissachar. This custom was popularized by the Kabbalists and subsequently cited in many halachic works.[12] The somewhat controversial Kabbalistic work of unknown authorship Pri Eitz Hadar (first published in Venice in 1728) was also very influential in spreading the custom to eat fruits on this day. The work includes various texts that one would recite when eating the different fruits. However, the common custom is not to recite these texts when eating fruits on the 15th of Shevat... ... [9] Eretz Yisrael, vol. 4, p. 138. [10] See Responsa of Rabbi Meir of Rottenbug (Prague ed.) 5. [11] See, for example, Maharil, Chilukei Haftorot; Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 131:6. [12] See Magen Avraham, Orach Chaim 131:16; Hashlamah to Shulchan Aruch Harav, Orach Chaim 136:8; Mishnah Berurah 131:31. From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 28 05:44:31 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:44:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?How_does_Tu=92bishvat_impact_the_counti?= =?windows-1252?q?ng_of_years_of_orlah?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. How does Tu?bishvat impact the counting of years of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years)? A. The Torah states, ?When you enter the land and plant any tree for food, you shall regard its fruit as forbidden. Three years it shall be forbidden for you, not to be eaten.? (Vayikra 19:23) From here we learn that one may not eat or derive benefit from fruit that grew during the first three years of a tree?s existence. This fruit is called orlah. This prohibition applies both in the land of Israel as well as in the diaspora. In Israel, fruit that grows in the fourth year has a special kedusha (sanctity) known as ?neta revai?. When calculating a tree?s first three years of existence for orlah, the years need not be complete. Rather, if a new tree grew for a minimum of thirty days before Rosh Hashana, this is treated as the first year of the tree's existence. It is assumed that a tree does not begin to take root and grow until fourteen days have elapsed after planting. Therefore, if a tree is planted on or before the 15 day of Av, which is 44 days before Rosh Hashana, the tree is considered one year old on Rosh Hashana, and Rosh Hashanah marks the beginning of the tree?s second year of growth. If a tree is planted less than 44 days before Rosh Hashanah, one must wait until the following Rosh Hashanah (more than a year) to complete the first year of orlah. However, even after the third Rosh Hashanah marks the completion of three years, the fruit which blossoms in the fourth year before Tu?bishvat is treated as orlah as well. This is because this fruit was nourished from sap that the tree produced before Rosh Hashana. If fruit blossomed after Tu?bishvat of the fourth year, we assume that the fruit was nourished from the current year?s sap, and the fruit is not orlah. The Shach (YD 294:10) quotes the Rosh who notes that in our climate, trees don?t ordinarily blossom before Tu?bishvat, so one may assume that all fruit that is found on the tree in the fourth year is not orlah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 27 20:01:57 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> References: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> Message-ID: As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard date is required to separate them? I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th. Or is that actually the general case, and the exact date only matters in a freak occurrence? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 03:35:39 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 06:35:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> I have often wondered the same thing about so many leaders, both Jewish and not. The precedent set by appointing Yehoshua seems to be a no-brainer, in my view. I am so often disheartened when I see an organization fall apart and descend into total factionalism when its leader passes away. So much strife could be avoided simply by grooming a successor, teaching him the required skills, and making sure that he has the allegiance of the membership. Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. It almost seems like a dereliction of duty. I'd cite examples, but that would surely spur too many bickering side-comments. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 14:04:53 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:04:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128220453.GA13382@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 07:36:43PM -0500, David Riceman via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >>> sheini is not called cooking... >> Brisk. >>> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >>> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. >> Telzh. > Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook > (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos)... I would think that's a metzi'us question, but defining the issur in terms of derekh bishul rather than bishul. That certainly fits the gemara's language, except for the one-word name of the melakhah. In terms of Brisk vs Telzh.... It would still fit under Telzh, in that it's explaining halakhah in terms of realia. Brisk would stop all explanations at halachic categories. More like the "halakhah states ... is not called ..." of number 1. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Imagine waking up tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp with only the things Author: Widen Your Tent we thanked Hashem for today! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Jan 28 20:00:07 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 04:00:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. --------------------------------- Yes and one could posit a number of reasons-some cognitive and some not. That?s what I wonder about. Behavioral psychology offers some reasons for mere mortals but?. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 28 23:16:38 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 02:16:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/1/21 5:58 pm, Alexander Seinfeld via Avodah wrote: > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 > From: Zev Sero >> As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's >> climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard >> date is required to separate them? > >> I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in >> mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't >> matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... > > The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that > time and having a suffik about it's maaser. Yes, but esrogim are different because they stay on the tree all year, and are counted according to the year in which they are picked. That rules does not apply to any other fruit. [Email #2. -micha On 28/1/21 1:18 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah [forwaded from chabad.org]: > The first to > mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in > his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) > in his work Tikun Yissachar. See the Seforim blog post that RYL linked to, which cites earlier sources that Rabbi Shurpin's sources were unaware of. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From marty.bluke at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 02:04:51 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:04:51 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] R e: May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread Message-ID: Rav Meir Twersky in Beis Yitchak suggested this as pshat in tosafos. He suggests that when tosafos explains the difference between kli rishon and kli sheini as whether the walls are hot it is not based on metzius but rather whether it is normal to cook that way. It is normal to cook in a kli rishon because the walls are hot and therefore it is prohibited. It is not normal to cook in a kli sheini because the walls are cold and therefore permitted. Likewise, by kalei habishul since they cook easily people cook then in a kli sheini and therefore you are chayav. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 13:47:11 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:47:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha Message-ID: . Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the very first thing we say after benching. ???????? ????????? ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ??????????? ??? ????????. It is composed of two similar phrases, the first of which contains the preposition "el" and the second uses the preposition "al". And yet, despite this contrast, the great majority of English Tehilims and Haggadas translate both of them as "upon". The main exception is The Psalms, with the perush of Rav RSR Hirsch. He is emphatic that "el" must be translated as "toward" and not as ?upon?. He explains that the first half refers to the nations who have merely failed to recognize God, and we pray for His anger to go *toward* them, that they might come to know and understand. It is only in the second half, which refers to the evil kingdoms who have tried to destroy us, that we pray for God's anger to pour down *upon* them. Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name". To me, both can refer to people who are simply ignorant of Hashem, or perhaps both can refer to people who actively deny Hashem. But I don't see how one group is more or less evil than the other. Perhaps he gets it by contrasting "nations" and "kingdoms". If anyone can offer ideas, I'd appreciate it. In any case, it seems clear to me that the author of this Tehillim strove to distinguish between "el" and "al", and those who recite the Haggada in English might want to take note of this. Hat tip to ArtScroll's Interlinear Tehillim, from which I've been reciting Tehillim recently. True to the advertising, I have found it very helpful in understanding what I'm saying. It really does take no more than a glance to see what the more difficult words mean. A few days ago, I wasn't even paying much attention to the English - not on a conscious level at least! But my peripheral vision was surprised to see "el" being translated as "upon", and it jarred me into further research. I will also note that although the preposition "el" is best translated as "to" or "towards" in the vast majority of cases, there are indeed some exceptions, as noted by Rashi on Bereshis 20:2. It is possible that some might consider Tehillim 79:6 to be in that category, but in my view, the contrast between "el" and "al" makes that very unlikely. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 04:27:13 2021 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 23:27:13 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Milk is Produced also by non-Kosher parts of the Cow Message-ID: The Gemara Chullin 69a documents a very strange discussion. R Yirmiyah asks - is the milk from a cow that has an Issur Yotzeh, Kosher? An Issur Yotzeh is generated when a foetus in utero extends a limb to the outside and then the mother is Shechted. That limb is permanently prohibited and cannot be made Kosher. The rest of the foetus is Kosher. The Gemara explains - ALL milk ought to be Assur, because it comes from a living animal and is like Eiver Min HaChay, and only by force of a special Limmud is it Kosher. On the one hand perhaps that also permits the milk of the cow with the Issur Yotzeh on the other hand, perhaps the Torah only permits milk from a prohibited source which CAN BE revoked via Shechita, whereas the Issur Yotzeh cannot ever be revoked which makes the milk Assur. Why is the Issur Yotzeh different from the Cheilev and Gid that are present in every cow that produces milk? Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:04:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:04:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220449.GB31611@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 03:43:41AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's > first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a > brother? What was the value at that point? isn't a parent supposed to make sure children learn from their mistakes rather than repeat them? Knowing to watch what you're saying has broad applicability in life. If Yaaqov makes sure they see they have that problem, they are that less likely to say too much in other situations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:01:31 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] min hatorah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220131.GA31611@aishdas.org> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 05:22:09PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote: > He begins his chapter on Mevo HaTalmud by saying that most matters learned > from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash, based upon > the references you and I have cited, as well as several others. So, it > comes out that Chazal had a kabalah that these matters were in Torah > Shebe-al Peh MiSinai, but knew that they were not indicated in Toras Moshe, > or could not find any such indication. But they pointed out that they found > that they were eventually committed to either explicit or drash-indicated > writing in Nach. An exception can be found in an oft-cited pasuq, in Yeshiah 57:13 (used by many in / as an introduction to Shabbos morning Qiddush). Mentions a number of shevusim, including masa umatan. I can see how a pasuq in Tanakh can be cited to show there is some TSBP that was already in place and in practice by the time the navi recorded the. But how can we prove whether those pre-existing dinim are really deOraisa? Seems that "mo "most matters learned from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash" could have numerous exceptions. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:02:59 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:02:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:04:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:04:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Soloveitchik Message-ID: Thoughts on the following as applied to Rabbi JB Soloveitchik? James Gleick-"There are two kinds of geniuses: the 'ordinary' and the 'magicians'. An ordinary genius is a fellow whom you and I would be just as good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how his mind works. Once we understand what they've done, we feel certain that we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is a magician of the highest caliber." The Feynman Algorithm: Write down the problem. Think real hard. Write down the solution. The Feynman algorithm was facetiously suggested by Murray Gell-Mann, a colleague of Feynman, in a New York Times interview. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 16:57:10 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:57:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee Message-ID: . This past August, R' Yitzhok Levine cited the OU's "Halacha Yomis": > From https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/i-will-be-travelling-and-would-like-to-know-if-there-is-a-concern-of-bishul-akum-with-coffee-a-consumers-question > I will be travelling and would like to know if there is a concern > of bishul akum with coffee? (A consumer's question) > OU Kosher Certification > > Ostensibly, the prohibition of bishul akum should apply to coffee. As > previously explained, a cooked food which cannot be eaten raw and is > "oleh al shulchan melachim" (served at fancy dinners) requires bishul > Yisroel. Raw coffee beans are inedible, a... > > See the above URL for more. In a subsequent post, I quoted the conclusion of that paragraph, which was: > Nonetheless, the Pri Chodosh writes that brewed coffee need > not be bishul Yisroel, since coffee is primarily water, and > water does not require bishul Yisroel. I have been uneasy with the idea that "primarily water" could be sufficient reason to downgrade the chashivus of a food to the point where it would be exempt from Bishul Yisroel. R' Micha Berger (in this same thread) pointed out that Bishul Yisroel and Chamar Medina seem to have different standards of chashivus. Another halacha that may be related to the above appeared in today's Halacha Yomis, at https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/must-terumah-and-maaser-tithes-be-separated-from-tea-or-herbal-leaves-that-are-grown-in-israel > Must Terumah and Ma'aser (tithes) be separated from tea or > herbal leaves that are grown in Israel? > > Tosofos (Nida 50a s.v. Kol) writes that there are two categories > of spices with regard to Teruma and Ma'aser: a) Spices that are > eaten together with other foods. These require the separation of > teruma and ma'aser. b) Spices that are removed after the cooking > and are discarded. These do not require Teruma and Ma'aser. It > should follow that tea and herbal leaves do not require separation > of Teruma and Ma'aser since the tea leaves are removed after > brewing and are not consumed. Indeed, many Poskim rule this way. > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > and Ma'aser should be separated. I can't help but wonder if Rav Sternbuch might hold - because the tea leaves are significant - that tea *is* subject to Bishul Yisroel. If he does not, that might lend weight to my suspicion that "primarily water" is merely code for "liquids" in the Mimetic Tradition, i.e., that liquids simply are not a concern. (In the Textual Tradition, "primarily water" is an exemption from Bishul Yisroel because water is normally eaten raw, which might not apply to tea leaves and coffee beans.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 3 22:47:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 01:47:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > > and Ma'aser should be separated. In that case why isn't tea ha'adamah, just like vegetable soup? The reason given is because there is no substance of the leaves in the tea, unlike soup where the vegetables are left in it and are consumed with it, and thus constitute the ikar. But according to this that shouldn't matter. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 4 05:45:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? A. This is a complex question, as it is touches on a number of principals that emerge from halachic discussions about the brachos for vegetable soup, fruit soup and beer. Important responsa on this topic were composed about 300 years ago by some of the great poskim of the eighteenth century. One of the first recorded teshuvos on this topic is found in Perach Mateh Aharon (siman 40), who ruled that the appropriate beracha is shehakol. Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt?l (1670-1744) disagrees. He writes in Panim Me?iros (2:190) that borei pri ha?adomah would be more appropriate, given that tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages. Indeed, Rav Meir notes that when visiting the city of Worms Germany, he observed the great chasid, Rav Shmuel Shatin, reciting borei pri ha?adomah on a cup of tea. Rav Meir challenged Rav Shmuel that it is customary to recite a shehakol. Rav Shmuel responded that a minhag that was not established by Rabbonim has no validity. Nonetheless, the Panim Me?eiros concludes a long teshuva by saying that while in theory he sides with Rav Shmuel, but in practice, he does not wish to break with common practice and recites shehakol. Subsequent poskim have defended the custom to recite a shehakol on coffee and tea with various explanations, and that is almost universally accepted. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 4 11:46:25 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:46:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 01:45:06PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? ... > Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt"l (1670-1744) ... writes in Panim Me'iros > (2:190) that borei pri ha'adomah would be more appropriate, given that > tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages... I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. A related (I think) case in the SA is that of date butter (OC 202:7). Date butter is "ha'eitz" for Sepharadim, because date butter was a primary use of dates in the Mechaber's day. The Rama holds the safeiq is real enough to justify "shehakol" as the catch-all. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger How wonderful it is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp nobody need wait a single moment Author: Widen Your Tent before starting to improve the world. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anne Frank Hy"d From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 11:39:20 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 19:39:20 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. Joseph (who has been saying sheasani yisrael for many decades) Sent from my iPhone From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 21:13:22 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 05:13:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com>, Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? > > ----------------------------- > I responded: I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. > --------------------------------------------- > RJR replied: My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Me (again): So was mine. Joseph From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Feb 4 19:54:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 03:54:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? ----------------------------- I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. --------------------------------------------- My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Shabbat Shalom Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 4 17:26:49 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 20:26:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> On 4/2/21 2:46 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel > reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for saying shehakol. To the best of my understanding it's simply an amhoratzus that started because people didn't know what it was. Remember that edible chocolate was only invented around 1800, so most poskim never heard of it. But the issue is very different from that of tea and coffee. The poskim did know what those are, and said they are shehakol because the leaves and beans are discarded and not consumed at all. That's why I was surprised to read an opinion that they are subject to bishul akum. That's obviously not the case with chocolate. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 5 08:40:44 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:40:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? A. Shulchan Aruch (OC 182:2; 272:9; 289:2; 296:2) writes that if there is no wine available, one may recite Birchas Hamazon, Kiddush (see last paragraph for further clarification about kiddush) or Havdalah on a beverage that is prevalent in that location. This is known as Chamar Medinah (the local wine). Do tea or coffee qualify? Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yebia Omer 3:19 and Yechaveh Daas 2:38) cites some Acharonim who maintain that a beverage is only considered Chamar Medinah if it is intoxicating. Based on this, Rav Ovadia Yosef rules that one should not recite Havdalah on tea or coffee. Only alcoholic beverages such as beer are acceptable. This was also the opinion of Rav Chaim Volozhener. The Rogotchover suggests that even if it is necessary for chamar medina to be intoxicating, milk can be considered an intoxicating beverage based on the Gemara (Kerisos 13b)that a cohen may not perform the avodah in the Beis Hamikdash after drinking milk. (Presumably, milk is intoxicating in the sense that it causes drowsiness and affects a person?s mental state.) However, Rav Y.D. Soloveichik (Mi?peninei Harav p. 87) rejects the comparison between avodah and chamar medinah. Milk invalidates a cohen for avodah because it causes drowsiness, while chamar medinah is limited to actual intoxication. On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea. One may add milk to their tea or coffee, but it is not necessary. Igeros Moshe explains that these drinks are similar to wine because they are served to guests to demonstrate distinction or respect, and not only to quench one?s thirst. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 279:9) writes that there are different opinions whether chamar medina may be used for Kiddush at night and during the day. The Mishnah Berurah (272:27) rules that Chamar Medinah may be used for Shabbos daytime kiddush, but should not be used for Friday night Kiddush, If wine is not available, Friday night Kiddush should be recited on challah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:29:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:29:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel >> reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. > I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for > saying shehakol... Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. And that when eating chocolate covered raisins or nuts, both are primary. But concludes that you should make the ha'eitz or ha'adamah on something else first and then the shehakol on the chocolate. (IM OC 3:31) That does imply the chocolate alone would be shehakol, no? (I don't know, maybe he discusses the case of chocolate directly. I can only report on what Bar Ilan helped me find.) Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - George Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:30:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:30:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210207003041.GB20855@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 04:40:44PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? > On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea... The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in Litta. Gut Voch! -Micha From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 6 17:45:42 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 20:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> On 6/2/21 7:29 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. > https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei Teshuva's day. He, like his source the Divrei Yosef (R Yosef Ergas, 1685-1730), as well as the Pri Chadash on the question of bishul akum and other acharonim, were all referring to hot chocolate, which was the only kind that existed in their day. Hot chocolate is a closer question than tea or coffee, because the cocoa itself is drunk and not removed. But Divrei Yosef compares it to Shesisa, a drink made with flour, which the gemara says is mezonos if it's thick but shehakol if it's the consistency of a drink, even though the flour is in it and not removed. > Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without > all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. Actually that is not his sevara, but one he quotes from the Minchas Shlomo as a suggestion, but that the Minchas Shlomo himself questions since it's a clear halacha that ground ginger mixed with sugar is ha'adama (it says ha'etz but that must be a typo), since ginger cannot be eaten on its own. Aderaba, that is the greatest argument for it being ha'etz, since that is not just the ikar way to eat the fruit but the only way. Even if the sugar is the majority, it comes only to make the fruit edible, so it's batel to it. His own sevara for shehakol is that the taste of the sugar and other ingredients is the ikar, and not that of the chocolate at all! But it seems to me that anyone who eats chocolate will testify that it's not so. It's not chocolate-flavored sugar, it's sugar-flavored chocolate, even when the chocolate is less than 50%, kol shekein in those bars that boast on the label of being 55% or 70% or 90% cocoa solids. By the way, he quotes Pachad Yitzchak quoting Yad Malachi, a talmid of R Yosef Ergas, who paskens (unlike his rebbe) to say Ha'eitz on hot chocolate! > RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. That's just it. He doesn't consider the question and pasken on it. He just assumes it. Who knows whether when he wrote that he had any idea what chocolate is. That's my contention about why the worlds says shehakol; they just don't know what it is, or else they're relying on their predecessors who didn't know what it was. None of them considered it. They came to America and found it there in the stores, and assumed it was just another kind of candy, and thus subsumed into the question of sugar, which we pasken is shehakol. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Feb 7 10:28:55 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 18:28:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Between Science and Torah Message-ID: What precisely is the relationship between science and Torah? Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L, deals with this issue in his commentary on Shemos 19:20 in Rav Schwab on Chumash. I have posted what he wrote at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/science_torah.pdf YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 7 14:25:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 17:25:16 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 > > Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei > Teshuva's day... We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. As I see it, if cacao is shehakol in the ST's day, the same would be true of a chocolate bar in ours. Both are the usual form of consumption for the respective times. (If anything, the bar is MORE processed than the drink.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The trick is learning to be passionate in one's http://www.aishdas.org/asp ideals, but compassionate to one's peers. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 17:29:15 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but > only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in > Litta. It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of drinking it. In fact, he contrasts this with several other drinks (seltzer, lemonade, or water with honey mixed in) which are merely "mayim metukanim - enhanced water", and he specifically says that what makes "teh matok" different is that (a) it was cooked, and (b) it is not *called* "water". My conclusion is that the AhS doesn't seem to care whether the tea is sweet or not. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 06:39:13 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:39:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/21 5:25 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 >> Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei >> Teshuva's day... > We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the > distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, > liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their > usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. There is a fundamental difference between food and drink, which is the entire basis of those who say shehakol on tea, coffee, or hot chocolate. In the case of tea and coffee there is deemed to be no substance of the leaf/berry in the water. In the case of chocolate the sevara given to say shehakol is the analogy to the gemara's "shesisa". Shesisa, even if it is merely a thick liquid, is mezonos; kol shekein if it's solid. The same should be true of chocolate. How processed it is should be irrelevant, since this is the normal way the fruit is eaten, just like ginger. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 8 13:03:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:03:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 08:29:15PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you > might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude > unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of > drinking it. Well, in OC 89:23 he notes that some prohibit drinking tea with sugar before davening -- but only wwith sugar. He is unsure why they would say that, since the sugar is just to give the hot drink a little flavor. How does that make sweatened tea "akhilah"? Others allow tea drunk through a sugar cube, but not if the sugar is dissolved in the tea. (One of the places where the AhS cites the MB.) There, he does conclude "ve'eino iqar". I am just pointing out that elsewhere in the AhS, tea and tea with sugar are different things. So, I wouldn't just assume he added the word "matoq" here simply because that's the norm. (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. I would want evidence it even was their norm. In siman 89, he gives the din for tea but if the tea is with sugar.... As opposed to if the se'if saw a need to call the first case "tea without sugar" or "unsweatened tea".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 8 05:19:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 13:19:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Proper Method of Torah Research Message-ID: The following is from the fourth footnote to RSRH's Eighteenth Letter in the Nineteen Letters. A word here about the proper method of Torah research. Two revelations are before us: nature and Torah. The same method of investigation must apply to both. In studying nature, all phenomena confront us as given data, and we can only endeavor to find the laws applying to them, and their interrelation, a posteriori-by starting from these phenomena themselves. The proof of the truth of your theory, or rather of the probability of its correctness, can be provided only by nature itself, since you will have to test your theory against nature's phenomena in order to be able to state with the highest possible degree of certainty that the facts indeed confirm your assumptions, i.e., that every phenomenon observed can be explained according to your theory. In nature, one single contradicting fact can invalidate your theory, and you must, therefore, make sure to obtain as much information as possible about the phenomena that you are studying, so that, as far as possible, you will have all the facts at your disposal. Moreover, even where we are not able to ascertain the laws and interrelations governing any given phenomenon, the phenomenon itself remains a fact. All this applies equally to the study of Torah. Just as heaven and earth are facts, so, to us, are the Torah21 and its commandments. In the Torah, just as in nature, the ultimate cause is God. In the Torah, just as in nature, no fact can be denied, even though we may comprehend neither its cause nor its relation to others; instead, we must persevere, in the Torah as in nature, to trace God's wisdom which manifests itself in them. In studying the Torah, then, we must begin by accepting the Torah's commandments in their entirety as given facts; we must study them and their relationship to each other and to the aspects of life that they govern. Then we must test the soundness of our theories by their conformity with the provisions of the Law; and, here too, the highest possible degree of certainty is obtained if everything fits our theory. Moreover, just as the phenomena of nature remain facts even though we may not have found their causes or interrelationships, and just as their existence does not depend on the results of our investigation-rather, the reverse is true-so, too, the commandments of the Torah are law even if we have not uncovered the cause and interrelationships of even a single one, and our fulfillment of the commandments in no way depends on the results of our investigation. Only the commandments belonging to the category of Edos, which seek to convey insights and to affect the emotions, remain incomplete without adequate investigation. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 13:56:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:56:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> References: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 8/2/21 4:03 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in > Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. Sugar was quite expensive there, while across the border in Galicia it was cheap. That's why Litvaks make their gefilte fish and luction kugel salty and Galicianers make them sweet. The Baal Hatanya, who lived on his pay as the town maggid, first in Liozna and then in Liadi, once asked the town council for a raise, because after much thought he had come to the conclusion that sugar is a necessity and not a luxury (hechrochios and not mosros). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 9 07:30:04 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 15:30:04 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Honoring Parents Message-ID: Please see the article at https://vosizneias.com/2021/02/09/honoring-parents-and-a-new-interpretation-from-rav-elyashiv-ztl/ [https://vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rabbi-Yosef-Shalom-Elyashiv-1024x640-1.jpg] Honoring Parents, and a New Interpretation from Rav Elyashiv Zt"l - Vos Iz Neias by Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com Last week, parshas Yisro, we leined the aseres hadibros. In them, of course, is the Mitzvah of Kivud Av v?Aim ? honoring one?s parents. The Torah itself assures us that one who is careful with it will merit long life ? something very apropos during this pandemic. The Talmud [?] vosizneias.com >From this article Speech ? Children must speak softly to their parents, in a calm tone, and using the most honorable terminology and modes of address. (See Kiddushin 30a,b). On the other hand, if one speaks abusively to one?s parents he or she will earn a place in Gehenam, rachmana litzlan. Action ? The Mishna Brurah (301:4) indicates that, if possible, it is a Mitzvah to greet one?s parents every day. There are also numerous actions that are obvious that must be done regularly, for example, taking out the garbage for them regularly ? without being asked; offering them drinks or food; requesting if there is anything they need in terms of shopping, mail, etc. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:48:15 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minhagim change over time Message-ID: Understanding how certain minhagim change over time: Imho this is a process which plays out historically without a clear algorithm. Only through the eyes of retrospection (e.g. the aruch hashulchan) is the result koshered (see hilchot aveilut as an example) Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:46:39 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:46:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience Message-ID: On belief based on personal experience: A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) Me-How do we take this into account in our emunah process? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:54:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:54:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Personal thoughts on Avodah Message-ID: * Ari Wasserman,Rabbi Moshe Hauer,Rabbi Moshe Mordechai Lowy,Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz,Reb Dovid Lichtenstein,Mr. Charlie Harary-1/2/21 - Show 304 - What halachically is a good (or bad) use of our time? Someone I know often says, "Time is our most precious and perishable asset." OTOH I'm not sure I can agree with Mick Jagger that, "Time is on my side, yes it is". You can listen here to the various presentations or you can send me $4.95 (plus shipping and handling) for Joel's magic elixir algorithm which will cure all your ills and give you the proper balance of learning, sleeping, relaxing, eating, etc. For an extra $1.05 you'll also get the proper breakdown of learning time by subject including Tehillim and gedolim bios! Seriously IMHO this our biggest avodah, figuring out how HKB"H wants us to spend our time, especially the marginal free minute. IMHO you need to think about this throughout life and to talk about it from time to time with others to ensure you take into account your blind spots (true of life in general). For me, having a working basic knowledge of behavioral economics, social science, quantum physics, scientific method, legal theory, etc. will improve one's talmud torah and avodat hashem. Just be sure you're not trying to see everything as a nail because you have a hammer! These are my thoughts on our avodah in dynamic time allocation today. What are yours? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ereich at zen.co.uk Thu Feb 11 02:37:15 2021 From: ereich at zen.co.uk (L Reich) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 10:37:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: <8dab4744-a501-4547-d3af-aad949ae4e5c@zen.co.uk> to Avodah forum: Can anyone reconcile the seeming halachic contradiction regarding figs, whether fresh or dry (the latter being known as /Grogrois/ in the Talmud. All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement of examination before consumption. Yet.... Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of /Grogrois/, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the cake? Furthermore in dealing with the hazard of /Gilui/ - liquids and soft foods left uncovered and possibly injected with snake venom - The Talmud Yurshalmi states that one may eat (soft) figs in the dark and not worry about venom. What about insects ? Elozor Reich -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 13:00:12 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:00:12 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? Message-ID: From https://www.kosher.com/lifestyle/this-year-purim-falls-on-friday-what-time-should-i-begin-my-purim-seuda-1436 [https://www.kosher.com/resized/open_graph/h/a/hamentashen_purim_concept_banner.jpg] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? | Lifestyle | Kosher.com Written by Rabbis Eli Gersten, Yaakov Luban, and Moshe Zywica of the Orthodox Union . The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat.. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat ... www.kosher.com The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat?chila postpone the seuda up until three hours before Shabbat. Bedieved (after the fact), if one is unable to begin the seuda until later, one must still eat the seuda up until Shabbat. If one is still in the middle of the Purim seuda at shkia (sunset), when Shabbat begins, one must cover the food, recite Kiddush, and then continue the meal. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if this were to happen, one would recite Retzei in bentching, but not al hanissim. One cannot recite both retzei and al hanissim, since this would be a contradiction. Since we are required to recite retzei, this indicates that it is Shabbat and Purim is over. Therefore, one can no longer recite al hanissim. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 06:16:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:16:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Special Seudah When Rosh Chodesh is on Shabbos Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This Shabbos will also be Rosh Chodesh. We will be eating three seudos in honor of Shabbos. Is there anything additional that should be served in honor of Rosh Chodesh? A. There are two versions of the Talmud. The Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) was redacted in the sixth century. The Talmud Yerushalmi was composed in an earlier period in Israel. The Tur (OC 419) quotes the Talmud Yerushalmi (Megilah 1:4) that when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, the Rosh Chodesh seuda is postponed until Sunday. (It is not feasible to eat the Rosh Chodesh meal on Shabbos since three meals already take place in honor of Shabbos.) It is apparent from the Yerushalmi that a seuda is required on Rosh Chodesh. In light of the above, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 419:2) is surprised that we do not observe this custom of eating a Rosh Chodesh seudah. He speculates that since this meal is not mentioned in the Talmud Bavli, it was assumed that the Bavli disagrees with the Yerushalmi. When there is a conflict between the Bavli and Yerushalmi, we follow the Bavli, and therefore the Rosh Chodesh seuda was not observed. The Aruch Hashulchan concludes that in deference to the Yerushalmi, an extra dish should be served at the meal on Rosh Chodesh. Similarly, when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, an extra dish should be added to the Shabbos meal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 11 15:38:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:38:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210211233848.GA14859@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 03:46:39AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> On belief based on personal experience: I checked on TorahMusings, and RJR forgot to say there as well just who he is quoting, but someone wrote: >> A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and >> analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations >> similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space >> (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they >> actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how >> many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) And RJR asked: > How do we take this into account in our emunah process? I think that's leaving the personal experience route, trying to use the idea of personal experience as a data point to build a philosophical argument. Kind of like the difference between the Kuzari cheileq 1's appeal to tradition, and "The Kuzari Principle" trying to make a philosophical argument out of the impossibility of forging this kind of tradition. The question is whether you want to philosophically get knowledge about the Borei, or you want to get to better know Him. The Rambam, because he believes that a personal relationship of that sort is impossible, focuses on theological knowledge about G-d. On the opposite extreme, R Nachman eschewed studying about G-d because all that intellectualizing gets in the way of knowng Him. The resolution I pursue in my own life assumes neither of these ends of the spectrum. Ever do something you know was the wrong choice? That's because there is a gap between what we think and what we feel. (R' Elya Lopian -- all of mussar is about moving something just an ammah. Moving an idea from the head to the heart.) It is therefore not necessarily true that a pursuit of philosophical knowledge about Hashem in all His Transcendence has to get in the way of finding a relationship with Him. This is a case where compartmentalization is a good thing. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 19:18:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 22:18:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: . R' Elozor Reich asked: > All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects > found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement > of examination before consumption. > > Yet.... > > Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of > Grogrois, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed > examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did > the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the > cake? My presumption is that the ancients knew what to look for, and so they had a simpler task of discerning a problematic fig from a problem-free fig. It is "exhausting" for us because we are less familiar with what we are doing, so we go to extremes to ensure that we've resolved all doubts. It is comparable to making matzah. Back in the day, they knew what they were doing, so they could make a loaf up to a tefach thick, and still be confident that it was chometz-free. They knew how to keep kneading the dough, so that even with the passage of hours, it would still not become chometz. They could even mix flour into a pot of boiling water, and it would cook so fast that it couldn't become chometz. But we have forgotten the details, and we're woefully out of practice. So most of us go crazy making the matza as thin as we can, and bake it as fast as we can. And just to be extra-sure, many go for the well-done matzos, disdaining the merely baked ones. So too with the figs, I suspect. If you know what you're doing, you can take a glance and know whether it has any bugs or not. But if you've lost the mimetics of how to do that, a surgical inspection is the only way to know for sure. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 18:38:50 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:38:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . No, I don't really doubt that Rosh Chodesh *does* have kedusha, if for no other reason than the Beis Din's announcement of "Medudash!" My actual question concerns how we express that kedusha, and in particular, how we talk about its kedusha in our tefilos. In the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh, the middle bracha - often nicknamed "Kedushas Hayom" - closes with the words, "Baruch Atah Hashem, mekadesh Yisrael v'Rashei Chadashim. - Blessed are You, Hashem, Who sanctifies Israel and New Moons." This conclusion certainly attests to the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh, but it seems strange to me that the body of the bracha doesn't. The main text of this bracha, beginning with the words "Rashei Chadashim l'amcha natata," says many nice things about Rosh Chodesh: It's a time for kapara, we would bring korbanos. We ask Hashem that we should be able to bring these korbanos again, and we ask Him for all sorts of brachos in this new month. And we finally state the basis for these requests: "For You chose your people Israel from all the nations, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Not a single word about the kedusha of the day (until after we cross over from the body of the bracha into the chasima). The root k-d-sh never even appears, except in the phrase "Beis Hamikdash". What's going on here? I clearly recall learning, once upon a time, halachos about the structure of a bracha, and how the conclusion should summarize the main point of what the bracha is about. But that doesn't happen here. The body of the bracha talks about the Newness of the new month, and the conclusion talks about its Holiness. When Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, this omission is even sharper: "You made your Holy Shabbos known to them, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Shabbos is explicitly holy, but Rosh Chodesh just has laws? For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant that I won't bother to list them. Amida and Musaf on the Shalosh Regalim have at least two mentions of the day's kedusha: The paragraph of "Vatiten Lanu" has the phrase "Yom Tov [Ploni] Mikra Kodesh", then just before the chasima we have the phrase "Moadei Kodshecha". On Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, "Mikra Kodesh" seems to be the only explicit reference, but that's still a lot more than Rosh Chodesh's zero. I readily concede that the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh is less than that of the other holidays, possibly even less than that of Chol Hamoed. And perhaps that's the message that Chazal were sending us when they formulated this bracha. Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Sun Feb 14 02:23:31 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:23:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 04:00, Akiva Miller wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other > holidays. > Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant > that I won't bother to list them. On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it that are different. ADE From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 06:15:34 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:15:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . I wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on > other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, ... R' Allan Engel commented> > On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the > same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it > that are different. I am not familiar with this idea. Are you suggesting that these "piyutim" were inserted long after the Anshei Knesses Hagedola, similar to the pituyim that are reserved for Chazaras Hashatz on special occasions? Thet would be news to me, most especially in the case of Musaf, where mentioning the korbanos is mandated by halacha. Even if these paragraphs are recent additions, my point was that all four of them specifically mention the kedusha of Shabbos: Maariv: "Atah kidashta es yom hashevii", "V'kidashto mikol hazmanim" Shacharis and Musaf: "Am m'kadshei shevii", "uvashevii ratzisa bo v'kidashto" Mincha: "Yom menucha uk'dusha" Additional data point: My question isn't about the Amidah specifically, but about the structure of a Bracha Arucha in general. So I took a look at the last bracha after reading the haftara. On both Shabbos and Yom Tov, this bracha concludes with the same words as we say in Kiddush and in the middle bracha of the Amida, attesting to the Kedushas Hayom. But what of the body of the bracha? On Shabbos, we say "v'al yom haShabbos hazeh, shenasata lanu Hashem Elokeinu likdusha", so that matches up. But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 15 13:45:23 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:45:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim Message-ID: Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA OU's Guidelines for Purim The approaching Adar and Purim represent the sobering milestone of a year since the arrival of the pandemic on these shores. This year has brought devastating loss of life, immense financial struggle, and significant personal and social upheaval. At the same time, we are approaching a time of year that should be filled with simcha. How do we balance these emotions and experiences? See the attached guidelines, written in concert with our poskim and medical professionals. Read Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 16 09:25:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:25:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210216172556.GA18273@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 04:45:23PM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA > OU's Guidelines for Purim See also the Agudah's guidelines https://agudah.org/purim-5781-a-time-for-mindfulness-and-care And the guidelines sent around Lakewood in the name of BMG's rashei yeshiva: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1948510 (which I think is the most conservative of those I've seen) Over in my backyard, R Ron Yitzchak Eisenman sent out guidelines for Ahavas Israel of Passaic, but since RRYE is a known columnist, I thought people might be curious what he told his shul. See below, although except for capitalizing what was originally in BOLD, formatting was removed. Tir'u baTov! -Micha --------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 12:06 PM Subject: Purim 5781 Purim 5781 """""""""" Under no circumstances may anyone ever enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose The New PIP """"""""""" You all remember PIP? Purim in Pashut. This year there is a new PIP. Purim in Pandemic. How do we celebrate the joyous day of Purim during the Pandemic? The answer is, of course, by adhering to the Covid guidelines strictly and uncompromisingly. I recall very well last Purim. No one was masking as back then; in fact, we were told not to mask. No one social distanced as we never heard of the term. Purim was celebrated together with close contact, sharing of food and drink, and unbeknownst to us at the time; we were also transmitting a deadly pathogen that would wreak havoc on the world, AND PARTICULARLY HARD HIT WERE ORTHODOX JEWS. This year Baruch Hashem, we know to be careful. THEREFORE, IN THE SPIRIT OF EVEN A SAFEK PIKUACH NEFESH (SLIGHT CHANCE OF A LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION), I PRESENT MY GUIDELINES FOR PURIM 5781. 1. Parshas Zachor -- As I have mentioned in the past, the Shul follows the Psak of the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim Kanievsky that women are NOT obligated to hear Parshas Zachor. 2. Therefore, please observe the socially distant setup of the women's section. Preferably, unless you are a regular Shul goer, better not to come. If you do go and see there are no seats, DO NOT enter the women's section. You are putting people in danger, and you are doing a "Mitzvah through an Aveira." 3. The above rule of not crowding the sections applies to the Men's section as well. 4. Under no circumstances may anyone enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. 5. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose PURIM Night """"""""""" 1. One may eat before hearing the Megillah 2. Therefore, women or men who will hear the Megillah later should eat after 6:18 PM on Thursday 3. If you cannot get out to hear the Megillah, and no one can come to you to read it. You may listen to a live Zoom broadcast of the Megillah and read along with the Baal Koreh in your printed Megillah. Purim Day """"""""" a. Mishloach Manos -- Minimal Mishloach Manos this year. You only need to give two food items to one person to fulfill the Mitzvah. b. When delivering the (hopefully one) Mishloach Manos, make sure to wear a mask c. It is highly recommended not to go driving around town delivering food. This can G-d forbid lead to a "super-spreader" infecting many people. d. Stay home in your family bubble. e. The Mitzvah this year is "less (contact) is more (health)!" f. Matanos L'Evyonim can be given to me either (cash or check) in Shul beginning today. g. If you want to drop off Matanos L'Evyonim at my home (that is allowed and recommended), please come masked h. I respectfully ask that no one feel they need to visit me and certainly do not feel the need to bring me Mishloach Manos. i. The Purim Seuda should consist of people only in your immediate bubble. j. Preferably it should take place in the morning as Shabbos is coming! k. Use the extra time to learn Torah, say Tehillim, and spend quality with your children or yourself. Wishing all a joyous Purim Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Rabbi, Congregation Ahavas Israel Passaic, NJ From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 16 09:58:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:58:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Learning for the sake of learning, just to occupy one's mind with the intricacies of the Torah, even if the practical application of the law is already known, is limited to men. A woman who learns Torah does not become greater in yiras Shamayim because of it. True, she may become very learned in Torah, but this is not the object of talmud Torah. A woman may become a great philosopher or scientist, but Torah is not philosophy or science. Torah is the way Hakadosh Baruch Hu communicates with us. Only because talmud Torah is a mitzvah, a positive commandment for man, can it be a means to connect to Hashem and thereby increase his yiras Shamayim. Because a woman has no specific mitzvah of talmud Torah, she cannot utilize it as a means to increase her many ways of connection to Hashem. If a man is a great talmud chacham, having learned the entire Talmud, and has not become a greater yerei Shamayim this learning has not achieved its purpose. If a woman were to learn and know Gemara just as well as a man, it still would not make her one iota better than she is. It would have no influence on her relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu. she'asani kirtzono - He has made me according to his will, means that a woman does not need talmud Torah to come close to Hakadosh Baruch Hu. A woman can even have prophecy-the closest possible relationship to Hakadosh Baruch Hu-without learning Torah. [Email #2. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274-275. Women are also obligated to say Biros Ha Torah. While patur (exempt) from talmud Torah purely for the sake of learning, women are, nevertheless, obligated to learn the halachos of the mitzvos so they can properly fulfil them. With the exception of the few time-bound mitzvos, women have the same obligation as men to know and keep the vast majority of the mitzvos of the Torah. It is therefore incumbent upon women to learn the details of these mitzvos in order to observe them properly. How can women keep Shabbos or Yom Tov properly without knowing the applicable halachos? How can a woman conduct a business if she is not familiar with the dinim (laws) of ribbis (interest), ona'ah (misrepresentation or price fraud), or gezel (outright theft)? The difference is only in the goal of the learning. For a man, in addition to the need to know the practical halachos in order to apply them, it is also a mitzvah to occupy himself with talmud Torah as a form of avodas Hashem, serving Hashem. This is so even if there is no immediate need for this knowledge in practice, either because he already knows the dinim, or because his immediate circumstances do not require the application of what he is learning. However, for a woman, the purpose of the learning is to gain the knowledge in order to put it into practice. From zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com Tue Feb 16 11:16:54 2021 From: zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com (Zalman Alpert) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] On Feb 16, 2021 12:58 PM, "Prof. L. Levine" wrote: > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Have to admit this is strange but reflects a weird attitude towards females May I add that the views of R Schwab are not necessarily in line with Rav Breuer or Rav SR Hirsch or that they represent daas Torah just at this point a daas Yachid it warrants further investigation By the way Rav Schwab personally from the pulpit thanked and praised the late Isha gedolah Dr Gertrude Hirschler for her abridged trans of the Hirsch chumash That was not practical halacha but Torah lishma Torah hashkofa is complex and single modules or power points do not reflect the reality on the ground This is true as all rabbis are humans and MAY and do change positions,the Rav was a powerful Agudist until 1946 and then joined Mizrachi so I can guote what he said in 1938 and that would NOT reflect his position later Rabbi Schwab himself reversed himself in Tide several times ... [Email #2. -micha] > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274 - 275. Besides hilchos Shabbos none of the halachoth mentioned was taught at the Breuer's girls high school,some time was spent on secondary subjects that could gave been used Rav Schwab was the Board of Ed dean of all KAJ schools I suspect hilchos Shabbes are taught in most Bath Jacobs in metro NY And in the KAJ school no text was used no kittzur not even Rabbi Posen's Amira leBays Yaakov which was designated as a supplementary text but not formally studied As the chazal say esmahmeha ? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 16 22:39:57 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 06:39:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts Message-ID: For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 04:13:42 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 07:13:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was learning this week. I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even today. Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? Akiva Miller (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra guessing. Happy Adar!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 18 05:04:17 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? Message-ID: There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different depending on where you live and the day of the year. For a detailed discussion of this issue see https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ YL Depression Angles ? The Seforim Blog Depression Angles By William Gewirtz. Introduction: Depression angles measure the level of darkness or illumination prior to sunrise and, in a parallel fashion, after sunset. seforimblog.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 11:53:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218195341.GB18578@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 01:04:17PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different > depending on where you live and the day of the year. > > For a detailed discussion of this issue see > https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ Only end. The day begins at sheqi'ah. 0 minutes after sunset equals the sun declining 0 degrees below the horizon. No difference in when the day starts between computing a fixed interval or degrees below horizon. In any case, computing tzeis isn't siginificantly more complex. It's as easy to compute sunset (0 deg below the horizon) and add 36 minutes as it is to compute when the sun is 7.12 deg below the horizon. See the page I wrote at http://aishdas.org/luach Or the widely used http://mysmanim.com Both use declination. But I like my formatting. One page per month in normal 7x4 or 7x5 calendar format. At the cost of not having every zeman published for every day, and having to split the difference between the zeman as it was two days before today and two day after. (I even threw in the Molad on days that have one. One known bug -- doesn't know which cities light 40 min before sheqi'ah.) Suggestions invited. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 14:36:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:36:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218223619.GA9395@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 07:13:42AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic... Shorashim, likely not. So I can't help you with cases like "techum". But it shouldn't take that much diqduq knowledge to recognize which way the word is conjugated, so, more hope for verbs. Then the easy things, like .... I say "like", but I only can think of this example: No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. A final alef "-a" for zakhar nouns ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. Eg: Malkah with a hei is Lh"Q for queen. Malka with an alef - Aramit for king. For that matter, once we get to rabbinic Hebrew, the shorashim they both got from before the split between the languages is compounded by Leshon Chazal's heavy borrowing of shorashim from Aramit. The question of which language a shoresh belongs to itself becomes blurry. More like asking "when did this enter Hebrew". Like "techum", which is used in Mishnayos, in Hebrew. So, it's a Hebrew word, but a later addition, borrowed from Aramaic. (Then there is always sefaria. When you search for the word, which books dominate the search results? If the answer is Targumim, the Talmuds, Zohar, etc... you know it's Aramaic. Of course, so much of gemara (TY & TB) is in Hebrew, finding a word in gemara alone wouldn't make the point.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was > learning this week. > > I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra > v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* > was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good > example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase > "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, > and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to > conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it > was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. > > I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the > loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the > word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), > which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a > form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A > "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). > [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find > this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is > actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. > > On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must > be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any > Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any > Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has > many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, > the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what > Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa > cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute > "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak > claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same > pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that > Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in > about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. > > My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is > Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few > places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that > whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days > of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, > and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even > today. > > Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even > earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? > > Akiva Miller > > (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, > here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. > I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's > not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. > Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want > another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra > guessing. Happy Adar!) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 02:36:31 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:36:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. > A final alef "-a" for zakhar nound ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. When I was in yeshiva, I had a friend who had more than a few seforim published with Hebrew fonts, but not Hebrew language. I ended up developing a set of rules by which I could determine a book's language at just a glance: Lots of words ending with Heh - Hebrew Lots of words ending with Aleph - Aramaic Lots of words starting with Aleph - Arabic Lots of words with aleph or ayin or double-yud in the middle - Yiddish I had a rule for Ladino too, but I've forgotten it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 19 06:26:43 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:26:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi (Megillas Esther 9:16-17) explains that the Purim story took place because Haman maligned the Jews, saying that they engage in personal feuds and do not get along with one another. This is alluded to in the verse ?yeshno am echad mefuzar umeforad bein ha?amim?, there is one nation which is dispersed and scattered among the nations, i.e., lacking unity. To demonstrate the falsehood of this libelous charge, Mordechai and Esther instituted that Mishloach Manos should be given to one?s friends and acquaintances, to foster camaraderie and good will among the Jews. This demonstrates that we do not engage in personal feuds; on the contrary, we engage in acts of friendship, by gifting our food to others. Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving one?s acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Feb 19 11:33:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:33:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi... >> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor >> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal >> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). I am not understanding the ThD's explanation. After all, there is already a mitzvah in that niche. So: 1- On the first layer of the explanation, why then enact both mishloach manos and matanos le'evyonim? And 2- If we give MM to the wealthy so as not to embarass the poor, why not JUST mishloach manos, rather than matanos le'evyonim embarassing them? :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 20 19:08:07 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 22:08:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> References: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <0568e6c2-010b-31a1-fd3b-7e820b8d7560@sero.name> On 19/2/21 2:33 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: >> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >>> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >>> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >>> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Ad kan Terumas Hadeshen. The rest is the Chasam Sofer's suggestion, or rather the OU writer's understanding of the same, which I believe to be flawed. First of all, though, the Terumas Hadeshen does not mention "poor people". He says the purpose of mishloach manos is so that everyone will have enough food for the seudah, and therefore it must consist of food. Money or clothing will not do, since one can't serve those at the seudah, whereas matanos la'evyonim can be food *or* money, or anything else that helps. It should be readily understood that a person need not be poor in order to find himself not quite up to making as big a seudah as he would like. It may be that he is neither rich nor poor, he's keeping up with his bills, but he can't afford to make the kind of purim seuda he would like to make, and a care package would be welcome. It may also be that someone has plenty of money but for some reason he didn't buy enough when he went shopping, or he just isn't that good a cook, and would appreciate an outside contribution to the meal. >>> Although most people are not poor >>> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, This part is not in the ThD or the ChS, and is the OU writer's own interjection. >>> Chazal >>> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >>> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). This is the ChS, except that he doesn't say "wealthy", he says one who has plenty of food. It could even be a poor person who happens to be well provided for the purim seudah, even if he'll be eating the leftovers all week. Technically, according to the ThD's explanation of the reason for the mitzvah there's no reason to send to this person -- one could send him matanos la'evyonim, but not mishloach manos! -- , but nevertheless the ChS suggests that Chazal said to send him anyway so as not to embarrass those who are not so well supplied. The ChS's point, however, is not to whom one should send, but whether the recipient can decline, and if he does whether the giver is yotzei. So he says that according to the ThD's explanation it's obvious that if the person actually could use the extra food then his mechilah is of no effect; lepo'el his seudah is now short of what it could be, so the purpose of the mitzvah was not fulfilled. But he says even one who is well supplied should not decline, so as not to embarrass those who don't decline. I think this answers both of your questions. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 03:47:20 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 06:47:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur Message-ID: In the "credit where credit is due" department, this post results from an article in the recent issue (Dec 2020) of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. It contains an article titled "The Halachos of Davening at Home" by "Rabbi Avraham Yeshaya Cohen, Translated by Rabbi Nosson Kaiser". On page 74-75, he writes: >>> It is forbidden for a tzibbur to recite ha'aderes v'ha'emunah except on Yom Kippur, but an individual may say it anytime. [Mishnah Berurah 565:12. Nusach Sefarad says it every Shabbos and Yom Tov during pesukei d'zimra. Perhaps that is considered an individual's tefillah, as there is no requirement for a tzibbur at that point. In fact, Siddur Tezelosa D'avraham p. 159 writes that it should be said quietly, and the chazzan should not end it aloud. See also Aruch Hashulchan 281:4 and Sheivet Levi 10:86.] Mishnah Berurah 565:12 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur, though an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. [Pri Megadim in Eishel Avraham] The Dirshu Mishneh Berurah 565:16 gives some arguments (pro and con) about saying it in Pesukei D'Zimra, and also raises the issue of singing it during Hakafos on Simchas Torah. Magen Avraham 565:5 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur. (R"m Mahari"l) Pri Megadim 565:5 says: >>> See the Magen Avraham about b'tzibbur, but an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. See Darchei Moshe. Darchei Moshe 565:4 says: >>> The Mahari'v wrote that the tefillah Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah can be said by an individual any day of the year, but a tzibbur is forbidden to say it except on Yom Kippur. My question about all this does not concern the exceptions that are made for Pesukei D'Zimra or for Simchas Torah. Rather, I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. Are there any other examples of this? Can anyone explain why it would be wrong for a tzibur to choose to say it on a day other than Yom Kippur? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 20:33:22 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 23:33:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" (beis-vav-tzadi). "Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in Divrei Hayamim. I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all of these as coming from Aramaic: techum (Onkelos' translation of gevul in Bereshis 10:19 and Devarim 27:17) butz (Onkelos' translation of shesh in Bereshis 41:42 and Shemos 28:39) yakar (Onkelos' translation of kavod in Shemos 28:2 and Devarim 5:21) siruv (Onkelos' translation of ma'en in Shemos 7:27 and Bamidbar 20:21) On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. One more note: This dictionary is available on line, as a searchable and downloadable pdf file, at https://archive.org/stream/AComprehensiveEtymologicalDictionaryOfTheHebrewLanguageErnestKlein1987OCR but its copyright is murky to me. There's an "Info" button near the top right of that page, and if you click it and the "More information" button afterwards, it claims that the dictionary is in the public domain. But page 2 of the dictionary itself says "Copyright 1987 by ...", so I don't know which claim is more correct. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 21 07:37:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 10:37:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210221153722.GA10838@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 11:33:22PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated > as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as > "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form > of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is > indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I > suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. I was under the impression that shif'il is an Aramaic binyan that is borrowed by Hebrew. So, it is used for Hebrew shorashim, but the resulting word is only Hebrew after influence from Aramaic. But AFAIK, shif'il and the passive shuf'al (meshubadim hayinu leFar'oh) don't appear in Tanakh. So, one could accurately says shi'bud is Hebrew, but Rabbinic Hebrew has Aramaic influences... So, the answer isn't all that black-and-white. Why not re-ask on our sister list mesorah at aishdas.org ? It's full of people interested in nusach, as well as getting leining and tefillah "just right". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sun Feb 21 10:19:26 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:19:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/2/21 11:33 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was > Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and > many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, > and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" > (beis-vav-tzadi).?"Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word > (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash > days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in > Divrei Hayamim. Note that in Esther 1:6, in the same pasuk where "bootz" is used to mean what the Chumash calls "shesh", "shesh" is used to mean "shayish", marble. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From simon.montagu at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 00:36:11 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:36:11 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 5:27 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason > I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive > Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by > Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen > it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all > of these as coming from Aramaic: > Klein's dictionary is also available on Sefaria with a search interface: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Klein_Dictionary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 06:32:07 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:32:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Please see my question at the end. Q. I ordered a food package on Amazon two days before Purim with guaranteed delivery to my friend on Purim day. Do I fulfill the mitzvah of Mishloach Manos with such an arrangement? A. This is a matter of dispute among the poskim. Some hold that by doing so he does fulfill his obligation of Mishloach Manos (Be?er Heitev to OC 695:7, citing Yad Aharon; Da?as Torah in the name of Mahari Assad, and Rav Elyashiv, cited in Yevakshu Mipihu, Purim 1:31). However Aruch HaShulchan (695:17) held that one does not fulfill Mishloach Manos with this arrangement. The Ben Ish Chai (Teshuvos Torah Lishmah 188) explains the reasoning behind this dispute as follows: In the previous Halacha Yomis we learned that there is a dispute as to why Mishloach Manos are given. Is it to engender good will and camaraderie between people (Manos Halevi), or is it to ensure that poor people have sufficient food for their Purim Seudah (Terumas HaDeshen)? If Mishloach Manos are to foster good will ? one must send the food on Purim itself because sending the food is part of the mitzvah. Those who hold that one is yotzei, take the position that the purpose of Mishloach Manos is for the recipient to have sufficient food for the seudah. Hence, as long as the food is received on Purim ? even if it was sent prior to Purim ? the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah. _____________________________________________________________ According to the opinion that "the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah" is the purpose of sending Mishaloach Manos, then it seems to me that sending candy and cake does not fulfill the mitzvah. While some kids may make feel that candy and cakes are fine for a meal, most adults do not, and hence it seems to me that one who sends candy and sweets does not fulfill his/her obligation to send Mishaloach Manos. For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 12:57:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 15:57:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 02:32:07PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and > croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! One can argue from the Rambam's Hikkhos Tzedaqah that the same applies to michloach manos, and it's better to give smaller m"m to more people. Or maybe not. The question of how to safely do mishloach manos this year is a touchy one, and depends on local conditions. I heard one LOR recommend giving just one person whom you've already had similar contact with, and save all the great "themed shalachmanos" ideas for next year. Last year, the week before Pesach was a vary sad one in our community. (I still cry when I think of R Matis Blum's [Torah Loda'as] mother, someone who fed me many a Shabbos Qiddush snack when I was a boy, who was still sitting shiv'ah for R Matis when she started shiv'ah for her husband.) But last Purim, we weren't aware of the notion of a "superspreader event". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone http://www.aishdas.org/asp or something in your life actually attracts more Author: Widen Your Tent of the things that you appreciate and value into - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF your life. - Christiane Northrup, M.D. From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 12:08:10 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:08:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Message-ID: The following is from the Sefer The Vilna Gaon on Megillas Esther by Rabbi Asher Baruch Wegbreit. This Sefer contains many interesting insights into the Megillah. Pasuk !:4 says "when he showed the riches of his glorious kingdom, and the splendor of his excellent majesty, many days, one hundred and eighty days." Question: Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Answer: The answer lies in understanding the real purpose of the feast. Vashti's grandfather Nevuchadnezzar had hidden 1,080 treasure houses near the Euphrates River, but Hashem revealed them to Koresh, the king who preceded Achashverosh, because Hashem had designated Koresh to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. Achashverosh inherited these treasures from him. Achashverosh decided to display his vast wealth to the officers and noblemen of all the provinces of his empire in order to awe them into submission and thereby solidify his kingship, and he used the feast as a context for the presentation. The feast was thus a pretense to allow what would have otherwise been ostentatious display of his wealth. The pasuk describes this in passive form "in his showing of his treasures," to hint that this display, which was actually the purpose of the feast, was conducted in a casual manner, as if it were merely a secondary goal. Achashverosh showcased his 1,080 treasure houses at a rate of six per day- as alluded to in the six words in the pasuk describing his wealth and power ("riches," glorious," "kingdom," "honor," "sp1endorous, " and "greatness")-on each of the 180 days of the feast (180 x 6 = 1,080). At the feast, Achashverosh also donned the Kohen Gadol's garments, to convey his personal greatness and royal dominion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 22 14:55:41 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:55:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:57 PM 2/22/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say >I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is >likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave >one maneh! So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. I think not! The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different brochos, even if combined. YL From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 20:37:09 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:37:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the > AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. > > Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your > practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for > one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons > into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is considered as two??" He makes no mention of the size of these pieces; if I give a nice-size portion of meat, and then a second portion just like it, it doesn't count, because it needs to be TWO TYPES of food. The AhS quotes the Rambam as writing, "two portions of meat, or two types of food, or two types of tavshil." [Note the change in language: Rambam used the word "manos" for the meat, but "minim" for food and tavshil.] AhS concludes that "His writing 'two types' forces you to say that when he wrote 'two portions of meat' he meant 'of two types'. Or. maybe it was a printer's error and it should have said 'two types of meat' just like 'two types of food'." In your scenario, where I gave someone a bowl of salad, and a second bowl of croutons, this is surely two separate foods, and I am yotzay. If the recipient chooses to mix them together, that is his doing, but I'm already yotzay. An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, *different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 23 05:48:26 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:48:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22e901d709ea$91763780$b462a680$@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:37:09PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very > clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." > Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But > two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is > considered as two??" ... In se'if 13 he says "uba'inan shetei manos... veyotz'in be'echad". Which being darshened from the word "rei'eka" would seem to mean 1 person (getting the 2 manos) except he doesn't get to the number And se'if 15 talks about the size of a maneh, "ke'ein chatikhah hara'ui lehiskhabeid". All that aside, yes, the AhS comes down on one side. In this case, he is defending common practice against the SA se'if 4. For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying otherwise. Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:56pm -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made > a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. No, I am saying it could well be that that's the halakhah, so CYLOR. What you consider obvious doesn't seem so when you look at the sources. > I think not! > The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different > brochos, even if combined. According to the SA, the halakhah speaks of two servings. The fundamental halakhah doesn't care about "two berakhos", and according to the SA, not even whether it's two kinds of food. Giving two hamburgers may not be our minhag, but it is clear that both the SA and the Rama would say you are yotzei. (OC 695:4) The Arukh haShulchan (se'if 15) talks about the manos being generous, so you can't be yotzei giving just two kezeisim. So yes, if you give a hamburger and a bun, you could very well not be yotzei. That's exactly the logic. You say "I think not!" but why not? Do you have a maqor? That's why I would get an expert opinion before doing the same. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 14:49:44 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:49:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222224944.GB2099@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:15:34AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the > haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh > Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha > to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is > sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm > putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. The last phrase of any berakhah (that isn't just a one sentence "Barukh") is supposed to be me'ein hachasimah. But it can drift all over the place in between. Any berakhah that covers multiple topics has to be a berakhah arukhah -- barukh at beginning and last sentence; or semuchah lechaverta and thus the first barukh can be omitted. (The AhS invokes this idea to explain the structure of Birkhas haZon (the first berakhah of bentchen). The middle berakhah on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or Rosh Chodesh is apparently a berakhah arukhah hasemukhah lechaverta. Therefore, it is allowed to have multiple topics, never mind insisting it closely match the chasimah. As long as the close is me'ein hachasimah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Mon Feb 22 09:01:51 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:01:51 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 22, 2021 01:19:26 pm Message-ID: <16140349120.7Aaf7F4e.96628@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > ... I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has > free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other > way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* > b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, > some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only > by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on > only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. > > Are there any other examples of this? > There are plenty of examples of prayers that may be recited by individuals, and that may not be recited by the tzibbur. For example, suppose you have asked Sarah Pippik to marry you, and she has nodded her head and said she'll get back to you on that. Unquestionably, until you hear back from her with her answer, you are going to be inserting a private prayer three times a weekday into the benediction of Shomea` Tefillah, that she say yes to your proposal. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Xonen Hadda`ath, if you think that not marrying you indicates a failure of intelligence on her part. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Rofeh Xoley `Amo Yisrael, if you are marrying Rn. Pippik because you need a kidney transplant, and she has the same blood type as you. The point is that individuals are allowed to utter certain kinds of prayers, that the tzibbur is not allowed to say. Now, there are special laws about rain, such that, if an entire community needs rain, a tzibbur is allowed to ask for it. But that is only because our Sages have enacted laws permitting it. Otherwise it would be forbidden. Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah. Or if the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition of the `Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, unless a good strong rain would sweep the frogs back into the river where they came from. It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed to make. Unrelated to the above, in your earlier post, you mispronounced "seiruv". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 23 05:20:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:20:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? A. The Meiri (Sefer Magen Avos 23) writes that Taanis Esther is different than other communal fast days. Other communal fast days commemorate events of tragedy, while Taanis Esther is a day of celebration, for on that day, the Jews of old fasted before going to war (Mishna Berura 686:2), merited to have Hashem listen to their plea and overcame their enemies. This contrast is reflected in the following halacha: The Gemara (Megila 5a) states that when the 9th day of Av falls on Shabbos, the fast of Tisha B?av is delayed until Sunday. We do not observe the fast before Shabbos because one should postpone, rather than advance, the commemoration of tragedy. In contrast, when the 13th day of Adar falls on Shabbos, Taanis Esther is observed on the previous Thursday. We may advance the fast since it commemorates a joyous event. By the same token, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l (Halichos Shlomo, Purim 18:6) contrasts Taanis Esther with other fast days with respect to bathing and cutting hair. Although bathing is technically permitted on all fast days except Tisha B?av (Shulchan Oruch 550:1), and hair cutting is acceptable on Tzom Gedalia and Asara B?teves, some are stringent and do not bathe and take haircuts on communal fast days, in keeping with the sad character of the day . This is not the case with Taanis Esther, where everyone agrees that bathing and haircuts are permissible. Rav Zilberstein, shlita (Chashukei Chemed Megila 16b) writes that one may even listen to music. However, Rav Elyashiv, zt?l is quoted in the sefer Ashrei HaIsh (Vol. 3:41:20) as saying that it is inappropriate to listen to music. Taanis Esther is also a day of forgiveness, and music will detract from the solemnity of the day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 23 22:25:48 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 06:25:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices Message-ID: Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim. My question, almost partially addressed in the article, is assuming such a waiver is effective, is it what HKB"H wants of us? Such a waiver certainly would help the children avoid difficult issues, not just event related such as weddings, but every day issues as well. Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the waiver sending the right message? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 24 07:13:33 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:13:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 24 05:31:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:31:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? A. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim falls on erev Shabbos, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbos. (If one eats the Purim seuda later in the day, there will minimal appetite for the Shabbos meal.) The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may lechatchila postpone the seuda up until three hours before sunset. (These three hours refer to sho?os zemanios, which means the length of each hour is proportionate to the length of the day. As an example, three hours of sho?os zemanios before sunset on Purim this year in New York City will be approximately 3:00PM.) Bedieved, if unable to begin the seuda before the three-hour period, one must start the seuda before sunset, which is when Shabbos begins. However, during this three-hour time frame, only a minimal meal should be eaten (a little more than a kibaiya of challah and a small amount of meat and wine) so that one will have an appetite to eat the Friday night seuda. (See Rema 529:1 and Aruch Hashulchan 249:7) If one did not complete the Purim seuda before shkia (sunset), which is when Shabbos begins, the challah must be covered and Kiddush is recited, and then the meal continues. Hamotzi is not recited on the challah since one is in the middle of the meal (OC 271:4 and MB 18). If one drank wine during the first part of the meal, Borei Pri Hagefen is omitted during kiddush (ibid). After the seuda, one davens Kabbalas Shabbos and Maariv. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if the meal continues after sunset, Retzei is recited in Birchas Hamozon, but Al Hanissim is omitted. (One cannot recite both Retzei and Al Hanissim, as this would be contradictory. Since we recite Retzei, this indicates that Shabbos has begun, and Purim has concluded.) YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Feb 24 10:00:02 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:00:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered via Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D.BD.20687.45496306@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 12:18 PM 2/24/2021, avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org wrote: >An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the >salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single >food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, >*different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to >be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT >have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two >types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] The salad that we buy which is sold by someone in Lakewood and is made by Postiv, has the croutons in a separate plastic bag, and hence the salad and the croutons are not mixed tether, but are separate. This to me qualifies as two different foods.. >One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! I do not agree with this. The Jewish Press used to write, "Consult your local COMPETENT Orthodox rabbi." I always took this to mean that not every O rabbi is competent to answer all questions, and I do firmly believe that this is the case. For example, I have in the past had conversations with O rabbis about kashrus, and it quickly became clear that they only had "global" knowledge about hashgachos, but no detailed knowledge. A question like "Whose meat is used in such and such a product?" was met with silence. Again, not every O rabbi has the knowledge to answer all questions. How could any one man know all the nuances of the technological world we live in? Instead of CYLOR, you should write CYLCOR. YL From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 24 15:11:29 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:11:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210224231129.GG18755@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 06:25:48AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning > parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim... If the reason for aveilus running more than sheloshim is kibud (or yir'as) av va'eim rather than aveilus itself, granting them this ability would be very logical. Like doing anything else for one's parent; if they don't want it done, there is no chiyuv to do it. (For yir'ah too -- you can get reshus from a parent to sit in their seat.) To answer your question > Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they > choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand > in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the > waiver sending the right message? It depends why the parents gave them reshus. No? It could be the parent is doing the child a favor. It could be the parent believes they are better served without it. And I could picture very different answers to your questions in those two scenarios. A mother might have waved aveilus because family is important to her, and she wants her children to be able to go to the cousin's wedding that is coming up. It may be greater kibud eim to obey her accomodating going to her niece's wedding. Alternatively, mom might know her child really want to get to their friend's upcoming wedding, and doesn't want you making major sacrifices. If indeed months 2-12 are all about kibud or eimah, and the request is for the parents' sake, the greater kibud av va'eim would be not practicing aveilus. Or maybe, just going to the one wedding. Okay, we need a scenario where the motive is continuous. (The only thing that came to mind is pretty depressing: Dad got his act together, but always regretted the years he was an abusive parent. He would prefer the kapparah of a short aveilus more than a full year of the son being pushed to think about their troubled relationship.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:55:59 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:55:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: > Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many > ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon > (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only > recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? The simple answer is: Minhagim change. That's their nature. One could just as well ask why almost none of the siddurim I've seen use the halacha's text for Haneros Halalu. (It's in O"C 676. Pick your favorite rishon or acharon, and compare what they write to what you say. Cheat sheet available at https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n251.shtml#19) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 08:31:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:31:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Are you or someone you know not going to shul this Purim? (Again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note that you can pause the reading or rewind one minute. Instructions are given at the beginning of the recording. [https://groups.io/img/digest_ico_01.png] Attachments: [X] IMG-20210224-WA0008.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:41:02 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:41:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] HILCHOS PESACH FOR THE PURIM SEUDAH Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin The Rema (in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 695:2) writes that the Seudas Purim, the festive Purim meal, should commence with Divrei Torah. The Mishna Berurah (in Orach Chayim 429, seif katan 2) rules that one must begin learning about Pesach on Purim--which is exactly 30 days before Pesach. Accordingly, putting the Rema and Mishna Berurah together, it is therefore a custom to commence the Purim Seudah with a Halacha about Pesach. In this way, one also connects the Geulah of Purim to the Geulah of Pesach (see Ta?anis 29A, which states that the reason we should increase our simcha to such a great extent in Adar is because it is the commencement of both the miracles of Purim and Pesach). We provide two Halachos for you to begin: 1. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 429:1) begins Hilchos Pesach by writing that it is our Minhag to give wheat to the poor in order to help them celebrate Pesach. The Mishna Berurah (seif katan 3) notes that this Minhag dates back to the time of Chazal. 2. Rabbi Shimon Eider, Z?tl, in the Halachos of Pesach writes that in lieu of wheat, some have the custom to distribute flour or other food supplies. In our time, most communities distribute money for the poor, in order for them to purchase their needs. The leaders of our community do not tax or otherwise assess their constituents, but instead everyone is expected to give to the best of his ability. Hakhel Note: As we connect Matanos L?Evyonim to Ma?os Chitim--let us remember the Pasuk (Yeshaya 1:27): ?Tzion B?Mishpat Tipadeh V?Shaveha B?Tzedaka?--speedily and in our day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:31:53 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:31:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say Message-ID: . R' Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter wrote: > ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the > tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a > prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the 'Amidah. Or if > the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, > the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition > of the 'Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, ... > It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed > to make. Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a prohibition. To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? In any case, my original question (in the thread "Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur") was not about impromptu prayers for special events. It was about established prayers that we can find in the siddur, machzor, or elsewhere. There are many that may be said only with a minyan, and I'm wondering if there are any (beside Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah) that may be said only with*out* a minyan. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:14:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:14:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? A. The Megillah relates that the Jews fought their enemies on the 13th day of Adar. They rested and celebrated on the following day, the 14th of Adar, and that is the day that Purim is generally observed. In the capital city of Shushan there were more enemies of the Jews. The battle lasted two days and they celebrated on the 15th of Adar. Shushan was a walled city and the Rabbis instituted that Shushan and other walled cities such as Yerushalayim would celebrate Purim on the 15th. This is known as Shushan Purim. (See Aruch Hashulchan 668:2-4) The Jewish calendar is set in a manner that the 14th of Adar will never fall on Shabbos, while the 15th of Adar occasionally falls on Shabbos. Some of the mitzvos of Purim cannot be fulfilled on Shabbos, and they are observed instead on Friday and Sunday. In such instances, Purim in Yerushalayim spans three days, and that is why it is called Purim Meshulash (the three day Purim). Here is the breakdown of mitzvos for each day of Purim Meshulash: Friday: Chazal did not want the Megilah to be read on Shabbos out of concern that one might forget it is Shabbos and carry the Megillah in an area where there is no eiruv. Rather, they instituted that the Jews of Yerushalayim read the Megillh on Friday, in conformity with everyone else around the world. Chazal associated the mitzvah of Matanos L?evyonim (giving gifts to the poor) with the reading of the Megillah, so even in Yerushalayim, matanos l?evyonim is given on Friday, even though it is not yet Purim. Rav Ovadya Yosef zt?l (Yechave Daas 1:90) points out that if one has a minhag not to do melacha on Purim (and treat it like Chol Ham?oed), melacha may be performed on Friday (in Yerushalayim), since it is not actually Purim. Shabbos: The Kerias HaTorah of Purim is read on Shabbos, as well as a special Haftorah for Purim. Al Hanissim is inserted in davening and bentching. It is proper to add a special dish to the Shabbos meal in honor of Purim. Since Megillah is not read on Shabbos, it is proper to discuss the halachos of Purim to remind oneself that it is Purim day (Mishnah Berurah 688:16). Sunday: The Purim seuda takes place on Sunday and Mishloach Manos are distributed then as well. We follow the poskim who rule that Al Hanissim is not said in davening or bentching. However, since there is a minority opinion that it should be said, Rav Ovadya Yosef recommends that it be added at the end of bentching in the section of Harachaman. (Harachaman yaaseh imanu nisim v?niflaos k?mo she?asa la?avoseinu ba?yamim ha?heim ba?zman ha?zeh. Bi?yemei Mordechai?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:35:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/2/21 10:31 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar > to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a > chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big > event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's > health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many > tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When > the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the > leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? The obvious analogy is to those countries that need rain when it is not needed in Bavel, and therefore Tal Umatar is not said. The halacha is that each individual in those countries should add "Vesein Tal Umatar Livracha" in Shomea` Tefillah. However the shliach tzibur does not do so, even though each individual he is representing needs rain and did pray for it in his private tefillah. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:43:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:43:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23baca0a-f837-9cb5-c594-5a5aea4b649a@sero.name> On 25/2/21 9:14 am, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Sunday: The Purim /seuda/ takes place on Sunday and /Mishloach Manos/ > are distributed then as well. This is the opinion of the Mechaber, who is nowadays considered the "Mara De'asra" of the whole Eretz Yisrael. But in his day he was not so considered. Yerushalayim had its own rav, the Ralbach, who holds differently; he holds that Seudas Purim and Mishloach Manos should be performed on Shabbos, and thus there is only a 2-day Purim, not 3 days. I assume that in his day the Sefardi community of Yerushalayim followed his psak and not that of the Mechaber in Tzefas. I wonder at what point the community practice changed to that of the Mechaber, and whether this was influenced by the arrival of new immigrants who challenged the existing minhag based on what is written in the Shulchan Aruch. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 14:08:50 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:08:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60ec2494-9da8-8764-525b-2d8fda20d3f3@sero.name> See Malbim, who sees the whole story as a political struggle between Achashverosh and the political establishment. Bavel had been a constitutional monarchy, its kinds bound by the law, and remained so after the Persian kings conquered it. But Achashverosh, having usurped the throne, was not content with this and wanted to change it to an absolute monarchy, where the law is subject to the king, and all the country's wealth is his to spend as he pleases. So he unilaterally moved the capital to Shushan, which had never been an important city before, and then started spending untold fortunes on an endless party, at which his own appointees, servants, and armies were honored ahead of the statesmen and ministers who had been there before him. He was rubbing their faces in the new reality. Then, once he felt that point had been made, he punctuated it by throwing a party for all the commoners whose only yichus was that they happened to live in his new capital city, and at the peak of this party he summoned Vashti, the princess of the ancien regime, to humiliate her and show that she is subject to his whims, because his authority does not derive from her but from his own might. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 07:51:08 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:51:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been > "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber > pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying > otherwise. > Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. I'd like to suggest, aliba d'RMB, how this development (from "two manos" to "two minim") might have occurred. (If he wrote this in his posts, then apologize for not seeing it.) But - today being National V'nahapoch Hu Day - I'll begin at the end of the story. There is a well-known practice nowadays (I will not call it a minhag, and AFAIK not a single posek anywhere requires it) that one's basic "two manos" should be of food that have different brachos. The reason for this (in my eyes, quite obviously) is because of what counts as two "minim". Is a chicken wing and a leg two minim or that same min? What of a cookie and a donut? White wine and red? Two different white wines? Choosing foods of different bracha removes the confusion. Similarly, I can very easily imagine confusion over how large a "maneh" must be. Imagine one piece of roast, and another piece of roast. That could be two portions for an ani, or a half-portion for a teenager. So it evolved into "two minim", which simplified things greatly. Just a guess, of course. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 08:24:12 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:24:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Message-ID: . [[[ I received this a few minutes ago, in an email from a friend. I cannot verify whether it is actually from the RCBC or not, but I'd like to think it is. Just to remind everyone, I am proud to have been originally a resident of Bergen County, whose rabbis almost a year ago had the courage to shut down all the shuls even before the government required them to do so. - Akiva ]]] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Thursday, February 25, 2021 Dear Friends, In response to our recent letter about Purim and Pesach during the pandemic, many of you have asked for more detailed guidelines about how to safely fulfill the various mitzvos of Purim this year. Please see below for additional parameters, and please direct any questions to your local Orthodox rabbi in a masked, socially distanced fashion. We empathize with the general feelings of ?Covid-19 fatigue.? However, we have been informed that a new, more virulent *Galitzianer strain* has been spreading in our community. As such, this is not the time to let our guard down. *Kriyas Hamegillah* Every Jew is obligated to hear the megillah twice on Purim, but safety concerns must take precedence. We recommend that all megillah readings be done in less than 15 minutes, to stay below the CDC time frame for Covid-19 exposure. As breathing is dangerous for everyone, instead of just reading the ten sons of Haman in one breath, the baal korei should attempt to read the entire megillah in one breath. If he must take a breath during the reading, a plastic supermarket bag should be placed over his head. Care should be taken to use one of the thick kosher supermarket bags, not those thin ones from CVS. In addition, while normally a ?hei degusha? is aspirated in words like ?lah? and ?bah,? aspirating is considered a sakanas nefashos and therefore should be avoided, as bedieved the reading is kosher without such aspirated letters. Similarly, the letter ?pei? should be replaced with the softer ?fei? if the meaning of the word is not changed. Perhaps this is why Hashem in His infinite wisdom named the holiday Furim instead of Purim (see Esther 9:26). Finally, we are all familiar with the minhag to read pesukim relating to a threat of death for the Jewish people in Eicha trop. This year many more pesukim refer to deadly threats, such as ?leich kenos es kol hayehudim? (Esther 4:16) and ?vayikahalu hayehudim? (Esther 9:15). To ensure that people do not follow these examples and gather in groups, these pesukim should also be read in Eicha trop. If it does not impede one?s ability to finish reading in less than 15 minutes, one may choose to read the entire megillah in Eicha trop, so as to diminish any feelings of mirth that may lead to a momentary lapse in Covid-19 precautions, chas v?shalom *Matanos L?Evyonim* While giving money to the poor is an important part of the holiday, extreme care must be taken to not infect those who we are trying to help. While paper money is normally handed to the poor on Purim, this will necessitate the giver coming too close to the receiver, thus putting him or her in grave danger. It is also difficult to properly sanitize paper bills with Purell. Therefore, it is recommended to pre-sanitize coins and then throw them at the poor from a distance of at least six feet. *Mishloach Manos* Our usual practice of bringing food to others? homes should be avoided this year, as standing outside someone?s door may inadvertently lead to entering their house. Many of you have asked whether one who pays taxes which are then used to provide free boxes of food to the members of our community can consider this their mishloach manos. Since the distribution of these food boxes is done in a contactless manner, this is an ideal way to fulfill the mitzvah. Those who have not reported sufficient income to require paying taxes should give some money to a wealthier neighbor and thus be considered a meshutaf (partner) in his tax payments. *Seuda* The Purim seuda is usually a festive gathering and is thus the most challenging mitzvah to fulfill this year. In addition, while drinking alcohol is always discouraged, especially on Purim, it is even more inadvisable this year as it would require removing one?s mask. There is a common misconception that the mitzvah of simcha on Purim requires one to be happy the entire day. However, according to most rishonim, the shiur of simcha only requires being happy for a toch kedei dibur - about 3.4 seconds, or 4.2 seconds according to the Chazon Ish. While it is so hard for us to find any joy these days, one can read a posuk of the Torah for a few seconds (quietly, alone, and masked) and thus fulfill the mitzvah of simcha as required on Purim. Please make sure to finish being happy by chatzos so as to have time to prepare for another lonely shabbos. *Lifnim Mishuras Hadin* While none of these restrictions are necessary based on CDC or state guidelines, it is critical that we continue to signal to the world how much more virtuous we are than our ?frummer? brothers and sisters in Passaic, Lakewood, and the Five Towns. We therefore urge everyone to get at least three shots of the vaccine, stay at least eight feet apart, and wear at least two masks (unless that becomes commonplace, in which case we should wear a minimum of three masks). Wishing everyone a safe, meaningful, and safe Purim. The Rabbinical Council of Bergen County -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Feb 28 14:29:21 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 22:29:21 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 25, 2021 12:00:04 pm Message-ID: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the >> tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a >> prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah.... >> > > Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you > have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a > prohibition. > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, > similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh > Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The > community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come > and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, > many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd > unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites > Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either > in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? > This is not going to be a satisfactory answer, but one reason for thinking that it cannot be done, is that it is not done. The scenario that you described above happens frequently: the community arranges a big event, many Psalms are recited, many speeches are given, there is communal prayer -- and the shliax tzibbur adds nothing to the repetition of the `Amida. I have seen it happen, you have seen it happen. This is not an entirely satisfactory answer, because there are plenty of explicitly permitted practices, that are not practiced. Thus, that something is not done, does not necessarily imply that it cannot be done. For example, there is an undisputed halakha of "pores mappah umqaddesh", which would have been the ideal way to fulfil the mitzva of s`udath Purim last week, but I have never seen it done, or ever heard of it done, outside of Jerusalem, which is allowed to have her own customs. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim without wine, early in the day, is not the ideal way of fulfilling the mitzva. The other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise it is theft, and it is a serious sin. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim after working hours is not permitted on a Friday, even if you live in the Diego Ramirez Islands where sunset is late, unless you are pores mappah umqaddesh, because otherwise you are having your s`udath Purim too close to your s`udath Shabbath. And yet, I have never heard of anyone doing it, outside of Jerusalem. So, the fact that something is never done -- even when you think that it would and should be done, if it were permissible -- does not necessary mean that it is not permissible. So, let us look for an answer in the Shulxan `Arukh. Orax Xayyim 119:1 is the first place where it explicitly says that an individual (even when not offering a tefillath n'dava, vide infra) is allowed to insert personal requests in the silent `Amida, although there are earlier allusions to this halakha in 90:15 and 101:4. The halakha makes a point of mentioning, incidentally, that you must phrase your request in the singular, because it is a personal request. Now, let us assume, arguendo, that the shliax tzibbur is permitted to insert communal requests, in the repetition of the `Amida. One would think, that just as there is a halakha in 119:1 explicitly permitting an individual to do such a thing, there would be a parallel halakha a few simanim later, permitting the shliax tzibbur to do such a thing, but there is no such a halakha. Now, of course, the absence of a halakha permitting something does not, in general, mean that it is forbidden; but the author of the Shulxan `Arukh did think, for some reason, that there was a need, in this case, for a halakha permitting it to an individual; I would expect, therefore, that for the same reason -- whatever that reason might be -- there would be a need for a parallel halakha permitting it to the shliax tzibbur, if it were permitted. Moreover, the halakha in 107:2 is that an individual who offers an entirely voluntary prayer, which we call a tefillath n'dava, is obliged to add a personal request in his or her `Amida; and I assume that this is the reason why you are not allowed to offer a tefillath n'dava on Shabbath or Yom Tov, because you are not allowed to add personal requests to the `Amida on Shabbath or Yom Tov. 107:3 states that the tzibbur is not allowed -- is never allowed -- to offer a tefillath n'dava, and I assume that it is for the same reason, that the tzibbur is not allowed to add additional requests to the `Amida. A more thorough answer would discuss other sources -- or at least the Beyth Yosef, since I am making inferences from what is not mentioned in the Shulxan `Arukh -- but I presently lack the time (and perhaps the skill, although that may just be my saintly modesty speaking), to put any more time into a more thorough and better-researched answer. Hopefully, someone who has time to research this question more properly will find it interesting -- because I think it is -- and continue the conversation. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 1 05:25:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:25:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? A. The answer to this question emerges from an unusual story in the Gemarah. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 102b) relates that Rav Ashi referred to the evil King Menashe in a dishonorable way. That night, King Menashe appeared to Rav Ashi in a dream and quizzed him about which part of the bread must one eat first. Rav Ashi did not know the answer and King Menashe taught him that we must begin eating from the area that was baked first. Rav Ashi accepted this ruling and taught this halacha the next morning ?in the name of our teacher, King Menashe?. The Mishnah Berurah (167:1) explains that we honor the beracha by taking the first bite from the part of the bread that was most baked. This halacha is codified in Shulchan Aruch (OC 167:1). The Rema writes that since it is not clear which part of our bread bakes first, we should cut a piece from the crusty end of the loaf that contains both the top and the bottom and this piece should be eaten first. Many Kabalistic explanations are given as to the significance of this halacha, and why it was specifically taught by King Menashe. The Ben Ish Chai (Parshas Emor 1:1) writes that this is an absolute obligation. Only if one is elderly and unable to chew the crust may he begin eating the soft center. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 06:29:38 2021 From: allan.engel at gmail.com (allan.engel at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 14:29:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: The concept of employed people taking days off work for holidays does exist. On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 at 14:07, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: The > other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before > or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or > self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise > it is theft, and it is a serious sin. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 2 22:39:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 06:39:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kupat tzedaka Message-ID: I am learning the AH"S hilchot tzedaka and am struck by the poverty in the communities he relates to. This reminded me of imi morati ZL""HH relating her father's description of the grinding poverty in the shtetl. (lots of sociological history in halacha). Of particular interest was his description of how the universal practice of a single communal kupat tzedaka came to an end. Sometimes reality trumps "halacha" and maybe the mimetic tradition fails to restart in cases it should. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 05:24:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:24:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll. Is it preferable for me to recite Hamotzi right away, to minimize the hefsek (delay) between washing and Hamotzi, or should I wait until I return to my table so I can recite Hamotzi on a whole loaf of bread? A. First, let's review the general halochos of hefsek between netilas yadayim and Hamotzi. Shulchan Aruch (OC 166:1) quotes a dispute whether one is required to recite Hamotzi immediately after washing netilas yadayim, or is it not necessary. Because of the uncertainty, the Shulchan Aruch concludes that it is best not to delay. The Rema adds that if one waited between drying their hands and reciting Hamotzi longer than the time it takes to walk 22 amos (approximately 10 seconds), it is considered a hefsek. Nonetheless, the Mishnah Berurah (ibid s?k 6) writes that although it is preferable to make Hamotzi immediately after netilas yadayim, if a significant break did occur, it is not necessary to wash again. However, Igeros Moshe (OC 2:48) notes that speaking between washing and Hamotzi is a more significant hefsek and would necessitate netilas yadayim and a new bracha (unless what was spoken related to the meal). Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 13:35:15 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 21:35:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE Message-ID: The following is from the article The Legacy of RSRH, ZT"L that appears in the Sefer Selected Writings by Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L. Rav Hirsch is usually accepted as the exponent of the Torah im Derech Eretz philosophy. This principle is explained by his grandson, Dr. Isaac Breuer, as follows: "He was strictly opposed to compromise or reconciliation, or even a synthesis: he demanded full and uncompromising rulership of the Torah. The Torah cannot endure co-rulership, far less tolerate it. As a true revolutionary he seized the liberalistic individual, the liberalistic, humanitarian ideal, liberalistic capitalism, and the human intellect, celebrating orgies in the liberalistic science, and dragged them as "circumstances", in the narrowest sense of the word, to the flaming fire of the Torah to be purified or, if need be, to be consumed. As a true revolutionary he solved the unbearable tension between the Torah and the new era which had dawned over the Jews of Western Europe. He invaded the new era with the weapons of the Torah, analyzed and dissected it down to its last ingredients, and then shaped and reformed it until it could be placed at the feet of the Torah, as new nourishment for the Divine fire. The proclamation of the rulership of the Torah over the new era was the historic achievement of Hirsch's life for his own contemporaries." -- ("Hirsch as a Guide to Jewish History'' in Fundamentals of Judaism, published by Feldheim, 1949.) Unfortunately, the principle of Torah im Derech Eretz is grossly misunderstood by our contemporary Jewish orthodoxy. It does not mean that one who is a full-fledged citizen of hedonistic America and at the same time keeps the laws of the Torah, is a follower of Torah im Derech Eretz. Not to violate the laws of the Torah certainly deserves praise and recognition but it is not an embodiment of the Hirschian philosophy. Likewise, an academy dedicated to the study of science and philosophy, not in order to serve the understanding of Torah or to further the aims of the Torah but as the independent search by the human intellect to understand and control the world around -- even when added to a department of profound and very scholarly Torah studies -this is not an outgrowth of the Torah im Derech Eretz Weltanschauung of Samson Raphael Hirsch. Also, a secular university in Israel, albeit under skullcap auspices, complete with Judaic studies, is extremely remote from a Torah im Derech Eretz school even if it has established a "Samson Raphael Hirsch chair" as part of its academic set-up, something which almost borders on blasphemy. The Orthodox professional who is not regularly "koveah ittim batorah", or otherwise lacks in the performance of mitzvohs, or who is immodest in dress or behavior, is not a follower of Samson Raphael Hirsch. From all of Hirsch's prolific writings, it becomes evident that his main concern was to establish the majesty of the Divine Word and the role of the Divine Will as revealed in the Torah, to dominate all the highways and by-ways of mundane life. Those who abuse Torah im Derech Eretz as a "hetter" to lead a life of easygoing and lenient "Yiddishkeit" or those who consider the Hirschian idea as a compromise between the right and the left in Jewish thinking have distorted the meaning of the principle as laid down in the Mishne, Avos, Perek 2, 2: "Beautiful is the study of Torah combined with Derech Eretz for the effort to attain both makes one forget to commit sins". The Torah is not a mere branch of human knowledge, one discipline amongst many others, but rather must the Torah dominate all secular knowledge and all worldly activities. Equally so, the community of Israel, Klal Yisroel, as well as all Kd1il!os and organized communities, be they local or international -- which are all segments of Klal Yisroel -- are not supposed to be mere branches of a neutral Israel but are to be totally independent. The Torah community is not beholden to any non-Torah community and it. does not even recognize its authenticity. This is the essence of the Hirschian Austritt (separation) ideology. The so ailed "Austritt" is the militant vigilance of the conscientious Jew defending the Torah community against all encroachments from the non-Torah powers that be. The "AustrittL" and Torah im Derech Eretz go hand in hand, they form "one package", so to speak, and both these aspects of Hirschian thought have one aim: the total domination of Torah over all thinking and actions of individual and national life. He who separates the rule of the Torah over all facets of the communal life of Kial Yisroel from the rule of the Torah over all human knowledge, in short, he who separates the "Austritt" from Torah im Derech Eretz, renders a disservice to both. Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. It. is none of these. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 3 15:32:08 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:32:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210303233207.GF29384@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 03, 2021 at 01:24:19PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 4 05:52:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:52:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. ---------------------------------- Interesting - You had me till here -I read through the whole piece carefully and it's pretty much what I heard from my rebbeim (and some secular studies teachers)at MTA - not always carried out but certainly the aspiration (and what I've tried to live up to) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Mar 4 04:28:35 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 07:28:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha References: Message-ID: At 06:32 PM 3/3/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up > >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... > > >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal > >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, > >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which > >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes > >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). > >Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to >the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, >wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. > >That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the >washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 4 15:21:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 18:21:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 04, 2021 at 07:28:35AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if > this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, > then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make > Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that bite? Tir'u baTov! -Micha From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 10:40:19 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:40:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . Regarding the seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach - I remember many conversations in years past about making rolls from matza meal to use for these seudos, and we discussed various recipes and what bracha would be said, and whether or not they are allowed on Erev Pesach. Have we ever discussed making a matza meal (or matza farfel) *kugel*? It occurred to me that this would be a very simple solution (for those who eat gebroks, obviously), at least for an early afternoon Seudah Shlishis. A similar idea would be if a cholent could have enough matza in it that its bracha is mezonos. I could raise various issues and questions, but I think the best first step is to ask whether we've already covered this. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Mar 5 07:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 10:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:21 PM 3/4/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a >precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that >bite? You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, no matter what you make it on. YL From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 5 13:35:55 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > no matter what you make it on. And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From larry62341 at optonline.net Sat Mar 6 16:46:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 19:46:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:35 PM 3/5/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > > no matter what you make it on. > >And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > >The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station >to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. > >Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you >are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference >for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. >>Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their >>dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and >>then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. >>According to you it would be preferable to have lechem Mishneh >>next to the sink in the kitchen and make Hamotzi there, since this >>would avoid " an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the >>bread." Yet no one I know makes Hamotzi at the sink in the >>kitchen. Everyone who does not have a sink in their dining room, >>wahses in the kitchen and then walks into the dining room, sits >>down, and then makes Hamotzit. This is clearly the preferable way >>to do things. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 7 08:15:03 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:15:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 07:46:47PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: >> And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >> As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their > dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and > then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi on a shaleim at the washing station. This situation differs from what I wrote in two ways: 1- First, you set up a situation where the pause is far less avoidable. Not the "unnecessary" pause of returning to your table from the washing station when the caterer put bread cubes there to make HaMotzi on which you choose not to use in order to make the berakhah on a shaleim. Besides, sometimes, people can't even know which seat they want until more people entered, they don't want a long line at the washing station and want to wash before the crowd, so they are hunting for a spot after HaMotzi. 2- When you wash for HaMotzi on Shabbos, everyone is up to the same part of the meal. People know that others are between washing and HaMotzi. People at a simchah have a wide variety of start times. The odds that you are greeted and might reply, or they might not understand why you aren't replying, are significant. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of http://www.aishdas.org/asp heights as long as he works his wings. Author: Widen Your Tent But if he relaxes them for but one minute, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF he plummets downward. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 08:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 11:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a >piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay >at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi >on a shaleim at the washing station. Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should preferably be made sitting not standing. At the washing station you are standing, At your table you are presumably sitting. This is an important difference. Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 10:16:54 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 13:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sitting for Hamotzi Message-ID: <3D.0D.01388.9E815406@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/85596/need-to-sit-for-hamotzi Is there an obligation or a custom to sit down while saying hamotzi? What about for the other before blessings (borei minei mezonot, borei pri adamah, borei pri ha'etz, and shehakol nihiye bidvaro)? 1 Answer The Pri Megadim (opening to Brachos, 18) specifically states that there is no obligation to sit down for the Birchos HaNehenin (including the Hamotzi) However, Chazal (Gitin p. 70) and so in the Rambam (Deios chapter 4 Halacha 3) state that for good health and Derech Eretz one should eat while sitting. And since bread is being eaten while seated, as stated in the Mor Vektzia (mark 8) that "all things that are being done standing, the blessing should also be done standing. But things done while sitting, it is not proper to bless while standing, as in Birchas Hanehenin, but Bediavad Yatza" YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 8 00:54:46 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 08:54:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha Message-ID: I can not now locate the most recent thread about the Meshech Chochma's shita on kedusha, can't get the archive search to work, but IIRC R'MB said the MC holds consistently that kedusha is never inherent to an object, it is an outcome of Jewish input. It always requires human involvement. So when my pre-hesder son came home from a few days sampling the avira ruchani at Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavneh brandishing a source sheet from a shuir on cheit ha'egel, I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way. If we mess up our attitude to the place or object in question, the kedusha is removed. Seems clear from his language that he's saying the kedusha does not originate in our actions. It always originates with Hashem for the benefit of our relationship with him, and lasts only as long as that is maintained and as long as it serves that purpose. So WRT to the first luchos - 'Ein bahem kedusha mi'tzad atzmam. Rak bishvilchem she'atem shomrim osam'. If we damage the relationship mi'meila no more kedusha, We can't create kedusha except so far as the Torah specifies, ie still originating in Hashem's tzivui, but we can destroy it. This, I think, is a far less radical take on kedusha and answers my questions as to how the MC's model of kedusha applies to kohanim and to time. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:15:24 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210308181520.GA21061@aishdas.org> On Sun, Mar 07, 2021 at 11:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should > preferably be made sitting not standing... This was the main point of the OU Halakhah Yomis you started the conversation with: > Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is > preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of > reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an > overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and > 27). The author, you will note, didn't think that standing vs. sitting was an issue. Just time delay vs having a shaleim. I replied that given those two choices, you could take a roll off the table you're seated at with you to the washing stationg. (In terms of this din, it can equally be a roll from another table. But I would think it's wrong to risk that the table you take from doesn't have enough for the people seated there.) If you want to discuss standing, that's an interesting question. Why didn't the author of the OU page not consider making HaMotzi while sitting a factor to weigh? > Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting > which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting > denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. Actually, sitting for Havdalah is a Gra (Maaseh Rav) / Brisk style innovation. Minhag Ashkenaz was to stand (Rama OC 296:6). The reason why this was a much more common minhag than standing for Qiddush is because the meal is eaten sitting. But otherwise, the Kol Bo (41) said we would stand for both, as a show of kavod for the Shabbos Malka. Just as he has us stand for Havdalah. But back to the question of sitting... I don't think the need for qevi'us is invoked for the berakhah itself, but for being yotzei another. (E.g. Tosafos Berakhos 34a, "ho'il". In contrast, the SA OC 167:13 says you can be yotzei others even if everyone is standing). See AhS OC 296:17. He quotes the aforementioned Tosafos saying that since people prepare themselves for Havdalah, there is qevi'us even when standing. And one should stand as the king (King?, or or Who is the Shabbos Malka?) departs. (Except, he notes, according to the Gra.) So, if everyone is making their own HaMotzi at the wedding, sitting vs standing is a non-issue. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You are not a human being in search http://www.aishdas.org/asp of a spiritual experience. You are a Author: Widen Your Tent spiritual being immersed in a human - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:32:15 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:32:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 8 07:24:20 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:24:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] hashgacha pratis Message-ID: <150501d7142f$1caeb8b0$560c2a10$@touchlogic.com> The question (machlokes) if a person's free will allows them to act independently/against Hashems HP has been discussed here many times. I found the following post to be a very insightful and practical nafaka mina between those opinions http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2021/03/rape-does-g-d-want-someone-to-be-raped.html#disqus_thread A young lady once came to me for a theological consultation. This poised cheerful woman told me that when she was 10 she had been raped by two young yeshiva students at a religious summer camp. As a result of this incident she went into severe depression, became suicidal, and was finally placed in a mental hospital for an extended time. She said that baruch hashem, she had recovered and was no longer depressed or obsessed with revenge. Her visit was precipitated by having just seen her assailants walking down the street in Geula in Jerusalem with their wives and children -- as if they had never done anything evil. She said there was only one issue left from her experience which she couldn't come to grips with -- Why did G-d want her to be raped?" All the rabbis she had consulted with told her that it was G-d's will and that while they couldn't explain it that it must have been good and necessary. She just had to accept it as G-d's will. Her problem was that she couldn't accept that she worshipped a G-d that wanted this horrible thing to happen. I answered her that she was being told the dominant Chassidic/kabbalistic view. However I told her that [other] the Rishonim had a different view, i.e., that it is possible for a man to choose to hurt another -- even though G-d doesn't want it to happen. That she will be compensated in the Next World for her suffering but that G-d didn't cause it to happen. She was able to accept that view. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 9 10:22:59 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 13:22:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 9 03:20:10 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:20:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> References: , <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Can't see your take on this in his words. He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Further on in the words I quoted in the last email, the word 'bishvilchem' is vital. It's for 'for you', that's quite different to being 'from you' , ie me'itchem or some similar term. And he uses the term bishvilchem twice twice in that passage. A bit further again: 'ki ein shum kedusha v'inyan eloki klal biladei metzius haBoreh yisbarach shemo'. No reference to our role in maintaining kedusha there. And more broadly, his whole thesis revolves around the misunderstanding that kedusha can be a feature of something in the world independent of ratzon Hashem. So Moshe smashed the luchos to show the people how 'they hadn't achieved the goal of emuna in Hashem and his Torah hatehora'. That is, they had to realise that even the luchos were only kadosh because HKBH willed it. I'm part paraphrasing that section of course but,I think, accurately. It's true, he does also make clear that kedusha is depedant on us. But that's because without us it's meaningless, not because it originates with is. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 08 March 2021 06:32 To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Cc: Ben Bradley Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 9 08:54:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:54:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? Message-ID: From https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/ [https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/%22https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/907310658.webp?mw=500&mh=282%22] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? ? Shulchanaruchharav.com Is one required to stand when making Kiddush? Night Kiddush: [1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush. However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit. [ From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas ... shulchanaruchharav.com Night Kiddush:[1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush.[2] However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit.[3] [>From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.[4]] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas Vayechulu, although they slightly lift their bodies when saying the first words of Yom Hashishi Vayechulu Hashamayim.[5] [The above is all in accordance to Halacha, however, according to Kaballah, Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position.[6] Practically, the Chabad custom is to stand for the night Kiddush by all times, whether on Shabbos or Yom Tov.[7] So is also the Sefaradi custom, to stand for the night Kiddush[8] and so is the custom of some Gedolei Ashkenaz.[9] Other Gedolei Yisrael of Ashkenaz, however, retain the custom to sit while saying Kiddush.[10]] Day Kiddush: Whether one should stand or sit for the day Kiddush follows the same laws as the night Kiddush, of which we ruled that from the letter of the law one may choose to sit or stand, although it is better to sit and that so is the custom.[11] However, according to the ruling of Kabala, it is debated if the day Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position just as the night Kiddush, or if it is to be recited sitting.[12] Practically, many of those who are accustomed to stand for the night Kiddush are accustomed to sit for the day Kiddush.[13] Regarding the Chabad custom for the day Kiddush, there is no clear Chabad custom in this matter [as brought below] and whatever one chooses to do by the day Kiddush he has upon what to rely. Drinking the wine:[14] Even those who are accustomed to reciting Kiddush standing, are to drink the wine after Kiddush only after they sit.[15] [Nonetheless, some are lenient to drink the wine even while standing.[16]] Summary: >From the letter of the law, Kiddush can be said in either a sitting or standing position, and each one contains advantages over the other. Practically, different customs exist regarding if Kiddush is to be said sitting or standing, and each community is to follow their custom. Sefaradim stand for the night Kiddush but sit for the day Kiddush. Amongst Ashkenazim, some sit and others stand for both the night and day Kiddush. The Chabad custom is to recite the night Kiddush standing, although regarding the day Kiddush there is no clear custom. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 10 02:10:39 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:10:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> , <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: I'm stymied at this point by not being able to find the original posts we're referring to. But you state 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over' I think the temporary kedusha of Har Sinai is at least as consistent with the first approach as the second. Har Sinai had kedusha due to its role Hashem giving the Torah. Ma'amad finishes, kedusha ceases. At least as much emphasis on giver as receiver. I still think Shabbos is the proof. It's kadosh because Hashem wills it, period. Its kedusha is for us, to be sure, but our failure to keep it doesn't impact its kedusha. It remains kadosh regardless of our chillul. When it comes to kedusha of places and things, our reponse affects it because it's in our physical domain. Time is not in our domain, we live in it not vice versa, so we can't affect its kedusha. But there's only one overarching model of kedusha, and the principle gorem is Hashem, not us. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 09 March 2021 06:22 To: Ben Bradley Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Thu Mar 11 04:55:54 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 07:55:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah Message-ID: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> See https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/pesach/app/371/a-guide-to- erev-shabbos-that-occurs-on-pesach/ He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah 'Because the bracha on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use rolls for lechem mishneh' What dispute is he referring to? If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. Mordechai cohen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 11 13:17:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 16:17:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah In-Reply-To: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> References: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: <617710ea-0a5a-86a1-c525-a2d8519c63e8@sero.name> On 11/3/21 7:55 am, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah ?Because > the /bracha/?on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use > rolls for /lechem mishneh/? > > What dispute is he referring to? > > If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. > Only if you eat a shiur, which according to some opinions is 4 eggs if you are satisfied from the meal (which I assume you would be). Still, that's not an impossibly huge amount; why not just tell people that they have to eat that much egg matzah? (If you're not satisfied from the meal then the opinions range from 6 eggs to half an issaron, which is 21.6 eggs. Though presumably you'll be satisfied long before then. But in that case the eitza is simply to eat another potato!) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 12 09:19:39 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:19:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] THE HESEIBA VIDEO! Message-ID: HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, explains that Heseiba is not intended to be an act of contortion, but a comfortable way to eat in a reclined fashion, as if one is on a short bed. By clicking here, we present a video of HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, demonstrating how Heseiba should be done YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Sat Mar 13 10:19:59 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 18:19:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Shabbat Goes into Yom Tov In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone seen a discussion of davening Ma'ariv for Yom Tov/Motsa"sh early when Shabbat goes into Yom Tov (e.g. Seder Night) - including the recitation of Va-Todi'einu Shavu'ah Tov and Chodesh Tov Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 10:37:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:37:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: The CRC sent out an email saying that soft matzah is not acceptable for Ashkenazim. The person who knows a great deal about soft matzah is Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky. A google search for Zivotofsky soft matza yields * The Halachic Acceptability of Soft Matzah halachicadventures.com ? 09 of Soft Matzah Rabbi Dr. Ari Z Zivotofsky Dr. Ari Greenspan Introduction The Torah (Shmot 12:18) commands all Jews, men and women alike, to eat matzah on the ?rst night of Pesach; yet nowhere does it explain how to make this required product or how it should look. For most Jews today, matzah is a thin, * The Thick and Thin of the History of Matzah www.hakirah.org ? Vol17Zivotofsky Ari Zivotofsky, Ph.D., is a rabbi and shoh?etand teaches in the Bar Ilan University brain science program. Together they have been researching mesorah, history and halakhah from Jewish communities around the world for over 30 years. They write extensively and lecture worldwide. * Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky www.torahinmotion.org ? sites ? default Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? and more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 06:12:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 13:12:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? A. Ordinarily, after reciting a brocha on food, one may not speak until the beracha takes affect by swallowing a small bite of food. If one spoke before eating, the beracha is invalidated because of the hefsek (interruption) and must be repeated. While this is true for all foods, bread has a unique status. The Mishnah Berurah (167:35) writes that lichatchila (preferably), one should not talk until a kezayis (half the size of an egg) of bread is swallowed. However, if there is a pressing matter, one may converse after swallowing any amount. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if one spoke while chewing on the bread before swallowing, he is uncertain whether it is a beracha livatala (a blessing recited in vain) and perhaps the beracha would need to be repeated. Therefore, this should be avoided. However, the Chayei Adam writes that if a person swallowed some of the taste of the bread while chewing (even if not the actual bread itself), a new beracha is not said. In all cases, one should make an effort to swallow a kezayis of bread before talking. In the next Halacha Yomis we will discuss why bread is different than other foods. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:29:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:29:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315202916.GA25399@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 04:47:11PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the > very first thing we say after benching. [Shefokh chamsekha...] > Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who > "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name"... Thinking "out loud": A polytheist could know there is a Creator, but call on someone else. Or henotheists. Perhaps RSRH believes such people are more likely to be in the opposition, rather than ignorant. And since we switch from amim to mamlakhos, we are switching from peoples to countries, entities with militaries. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:54:45 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:54:45 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: <20210315205445.GC25399@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 03, 2021 at 01:02:59PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that > the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only > give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. Rabbi Yehudah, who authored an earlier version of the three berakhos (goy, bur, ishah) and the rebbe of R Meir who wrote our version says they are "who didn't make me" someone with fewer mitzvos. (Y-mi Berakhos vilna ed. 63b) And the chiyuvim and issurim are there whether or not one lives up to them. Maybe RMA is saying "she'asani Yisrael" would only be a berakhah if a person is on the tzaddiq side of the beinoni line? The Taz has an interesting argument (OC 46:4). He says that if the berakhos were framed as "she'asani", a person might think that nakhriim, slaves or women are less important creations. Rather, we say that while having been created a woman would have been a blessing, I thank the RBSO that I personally was given the role that has even yet more mitzvos than that! So, if RNA wants to build on the Taz, he could be saying the berakhah is thanking G-d for not only creating me with the opportunities to fulfill mitzvos of an X, but even more. On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 07:39:20PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure I understand. Aren't we taught that a Yisrael, even one > who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth > no matter what we do. The way I spun RNAlpert's idea in reply to RJR's post, I avoid this question. Yes, the person remains a Yisrael. But a sinful Yisrael. Like we tell the prospective geir: Why not remain a non-Jew and earn a lichtiger gan eden without all those duties and prohibitions? In any case, there is also the difference between Am Yisrael and Adas Yisrael. "Yisrael, af al pi shechata, Yisrael hu" refers to qedushas Am Yisrael. What RYBS calls the qedushah of the community of fate. But someone who isn't giving the eidus isn't a member of Adas Yisrael; they aren't participating in the qedushah of the community of destiny. The latter is used in the mishnah "Kol Yisrael yeish lahem cheileq le'olam haba" followed by the list of koferim, minim, apiqorsim and mumarim who don't. Because it is specifically all of Adas Yisrael who have a cheileq` RNAlpert could have meant that the berakhah "shelo asani Yisrael" would have meant "Adas Yisrael". But I like my first suggested peshat more. Feels more like something he actually would have said. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:33:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:33:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315213314.GC3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 06:39:57AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor > balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth > floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, > or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying > it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and > Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain > reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, > halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? One is not chayav for killing a tereifah or speeding up the death of a goseis. But it's still retzichah. So, just to get the post more attention, here is my guess: Shimon is oveir retzichah either way. The only question is punishability. Since lemafreia we know that Re'uvein wasn't omeid lamus, one would have said that Shimon's violation is punishable. Except that you set up a situation in which Shimon couldn't have been acting bemeizid and with hasra'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:28:05 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:28:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315212805.GB3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 10:31:53PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax > tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's > health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? I thought "kol hameshaneh mimatbeia shetav'u chakhamim eino ela to'eh" refers to making it a norm. But the similarly phrased "... bibrakhos, lo yatza yedei chovaso", about the chasimah or whether it's a berakhah arukhah, is even once. In personal baqashos... It is one thing to make a tefillah for cholim in a time of need. But one isn't supposed to be inserting the Yehi Ratzon into EVERY Refa'einu for months or years on end. Here, IMHO the justification would be similar to that of adding baqashos to Sh"E during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah. "Zokhreinu lechaim", "Mi Khamokha", etc... Not the chasimos, which aren't baqashos but special seasonal matbeios. Which the Sha"tz says too. So, I would think the Chazan could / should say something in Refa'einu. But my 2 week search for meqoros turned up empty. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:13:38 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:13:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315211338.GA3647@aishdas.org> We discussed this topic around 15 years ago. I ended up asking R Herschel Schachter. He brought proof from the Rama that Ashkenazim weren't making cracker-like matzos in his day. So of course the concept isn't a problem. (That said, I opened the question asking about a specific bakery which had just started taking on-line orders. So RHS reminded me that he hasn't looked at that bakery. While he can say the idea has no problems, he had no idea if the hekhsher checking the implementation is reliable.) You may recall that one of our more active members at the time was making wrap- or more accurately tortilla-like matzos. (Wraps usually contain yeast, and tortillas usually don't.) So the discussion got quite lively. I learned something else interesting in that discussion. Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A person lives with himself for seventy years, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and after it is all over, he still does not Author: Widen Your Tent know himself. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 15:07:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:07:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210315220748.GD3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10:39AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is > the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those > mitzvos? I think > ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem > raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah > kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Yes, this requires that the Borei actually commands them. But it's not quite what I would consider a partnership. G-d "participates" in the sense that according to R Meir Simchah haKohein qedushah is about the Inyan E-loki. The proximate cause is us; we are the only means of bringing that G-dliness into a place or object. R Yitzchak Blau has a lecture on Gush's VBM entitled "Sanctity in the Thought of R. Meir Simcha" at https://www.etzion.org.il/en/sanctity-thought-r-meir-simcha He has more examples there of the MC making statements about qedushah to this effect than I was researching. I was on Shemos 12:21 "mishkhu uqechu" when I found that RYB's lecture. Here's what I was open to: Vehinei yeish leha'arikh, shekol meqomos hamuqdashim ein YESODAM min hadas raq meiha'umah vehasharashim "Yesodam" is underlined in my MC. As he continues, all the das, the religious texts say is "the place where Hashem will choose." It's the places history as the place from where Adam was created and where Yitzchaq was ne'eqad that gives it qedushah. We don't identify a holy location by das, we identify it from the people. Also, "Raq Y-m vekhol EY veHar haMoriah benuyim al hisyachasum la'avoseinu". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 16 04:53:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:53:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). > But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In > which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia > se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Two questions: If a belila raqa is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin? If you need to check the label to determine something or other, then you're admitting that this product does have tzuras hapas, aren't you? The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah or raqa? Akiva Miller From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 16 08:18:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:18:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210316151802.GD3279@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:53:54AM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote: > If a belila rakah is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin?... See the AhS OC 158:28, quoting the BY. Two baked goods, one avah and one raqa. The avah is "lechem gamur hu" and gets hamotzi and benching. And the ones that is rakah and very thin is mezonos and al hamichyah. But, as pas haba bekisnin -- it's a hamotzi if you are qoveia se'udah. BUT in se'ifim 47-48 he talks about a different baked good that is rakah, water and flour poured onto the kirah. The Tur says that it's mezonos normally, hamotzi if you are qoveia' se'udah. The BY says it's always mezonos -- he holds it's not lechem at all. (Which I concluded to mean, not even PhBbK.) In se'if 47, it is mezonos because there is even the littlest liquid underneath it, even if it's just to stick. In 48, there is a goma under it. Goma is apparentlly a pullrush or papyrus leaf. I am guessing that is also about not sticking. A modern factory bakery is greasing the baking surface to prevent sticking, so I assumed the latter se'ifim were closer to our topic. (In fact, it was the only case that stuck in my memory until I went back to the siman and had an "oh yeah!". I was that sure that's the case we typically face.) > The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the > liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba > b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah > or raqa? I didn't mean the ingredient label. I meant check if there is anything written next to the hekhsher. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 16 00:20:30 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:20:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Several individuals have asked me to elucidate my question appearing in Avodah Digest, Vol 39, Issue 23 regarding early minha Maariv on Shabbat going into Yom Tov If you look at the Nosei Kelim in SA OH 293:3 (e.g., Mishna Berura no. 9), it is clear that Davening Minha/Maariv [before and After Plag - with va-Todi'einu in Ma'ariv] early on Shabbat afternoon going into Yom Tov (like this year), is considered a davar Tamu'ah and halakhically dangerous since people may start with preparations for yom tov (Seder) and even melakha - and not wait for Tseit ha-Kokhavim. Hence it is permitted only bi-she'at ha-dehak (See Mishna Berura). The question is whether with the change of clock to DST, starting the Seder as soon as possible after tseit so the young children and zekeinim will be able to stay up for the seder is enough of a She'at ha-dehak to permit it. Two poskim were consulted on 2 Nisan 5781 (March 15, 2021): Rav Asher Zelig Weiss and Rav Avraham Shraga Stiglitz both Shlita - and were meikel in such a case. It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles be lit and the seder begin. Kol Tuv and Pesach Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Ethel and David Resnick Professor Emeritus of Active Oxygen Chemistry Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il. From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 08:19:58 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:19:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cracking the History of Soft Matzah Message-ID: This is a very interesting talk about soft matzah given by Rabbi dr. Ari Zivotofsky las year. The talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/podcast/cracking-the-history-of-soft-matzah Cracking the History of Soft Matzah | Torah In Motion Contact Us. Torah in Motion 3910 Bathurst Street, Suite 307 Toronto, ON M3H 5Z3 Canada Tel: (416) 633-5770 Toll Free: (866) 633-5770 info at torahinmotion.org www.torahinmotion.org The source material for this talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/sites/default/files/podcast/matzah_thick_thin_sources.pdf To whet your appetite about this talk, see the second source about finding moldy bread on Pesach in the above pdf file. YL Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky 1 Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.torahinmotion.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 06:17:26 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 13:17:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? A. Shulchan Aruch (451:26) writes that glass does not absorb and therefore does not need to be kashered. However, Rama (Orach Chaim 451:26) writes that the minhag of Ashkenazim is that glass that had been used with hot chametz may not be used on Pesach even if it was kashered. There are two reasons given for this. One reason is because we compare glass, which is made from sand, to cheres (earthenware), which is made from clay. Just as cheres cannot be kashered, likewise glass may not be kashered. The other reason is because we are concerned that one might not kasher glass properly for fear it might crack. Chayei Adam 125:22 writes that if it is difficult to purchase new drinking glasses for Pesach, glasses, which are used primarily for cold drinks, may be kashered with hagalah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 17 05:12:53 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:12:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance (e.g. distancing to try to save lives rather than to meet technical distance criteria) Thoughts on whether this is a common issue? I guess the other side is not looking at areas outside of ritual as being halachic issues? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at mail.gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:29:35 2021 From: jmeisner at mail.gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:29:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... This is a point that has been made often, even outside of the context of the frum community (Zeynep Tufekci has a number of good articles providing data points): that the fixation with hard rules such as 6 feet and 15 minutes rather than broad principles that could be intelligently applied to specific situations (such as Japan's three C's of avoiding close contact, crowded places, and closed spaces) and a tendency for experts (or politicians, perhaps) to take hold of false certainty (l'hakeil ul'hachmir) rather than a nuance born of an honest acknowledgement of how little we knew are among the greatest systemic failures of the Western COVID response. From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 17 16:05:11 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> References: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210317230511.GH19872@aishdas.org> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... I used a different metaphor in the opening of Widen Your Tent, that of an apprentice to an overly methofical carpenter. (Since it's a book about the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher, I called this chapter, "The Introduction to the Introduction".) The carpenter teaches his apprentice one skill at a time, mastering each in order before moving on to the next. So the young lad learns how to use a hammer, learning how to drive the nail in, straight and true, in just a few blows. Then he is introduced to the screwdriver, in all its variants. And when he learns how to screw into any wood without stripping the threads or the head of a Phillips screwdriver, they move on the trade's various saws. And so on through the whole toolset. In fact, the master teaches his apprentice multiple opinions about proper technique, and even ways to use the tools according to various opinions of how to maximize success at the same time. And then, as they just complete practicing a few ways of joining corners, the master, sadly, dies, leaving the student knowing everything about woodwork, but with only a layman's knowledge of the construction of a cabinet, table, or chair. Or how to build shelves that can support the weight of a library of books, and the like. And the apprentice is even further from any knowledge of how to express himself artistically, such as through detailed woodworking." This problem is worse than the forest vs. the trees. It's knowing how to walk (the "halakh" of halakhah) and not knowing where to go (having a derekh). If you miss the forest for the trees, at least you have trees. If you don't know how to define the goals halakhah are to help you reach in a way that works for you, you could walk the wrong direction. Rav Chananel bar Papa said: What is meant by, "Hear, for I will speak princely things, [and my lips will open with what is right]" (Mishlei 8:6)? Words of Torah are compared to a ruler, to tell you that just as a ruler has power of life and death, so too the words of the Torah [have potential for] life or death. As Rava said: To those who go to the right side of it, it is a sam hachaim, a medicine for life; to those who go to its left, it is a sam hamaves, an elixir of death. - Shabbos 88a In addition to creating a culture where people don't bother thinking about what all the CoVID rules are for, since we're used to just thinking about the rules (to summarize how I heard RJR's point), there is a more direct connection. We've become so obsessed with personal observance, with "frumkeit", that we risk lives in ways that would be unthinkable to true ovedei Hashem. Religion as a literal sam hamaves. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 04:52:56 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 07:52:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Selling Chometz on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In a regular year, Erev Pesach (for those who sell their chometz) is rather simple. For the early morning, we can do whatever we want with our chometz, including eating it, and doing business with it. At a certain point, we must stop eating it, and shortly thereafter, the rav sells all the chometz that we've set aside to a non-Jew. This year, the rav will obviously do this business with the non-Jew before Shabbos; it is a regular business transaction, and all the papers must be signed etc etc etc before Shabbos begins. But exactly when is this kinyan chal? Exactly when is the ownership transferred, and when does the rental of the storage space begin? My point is this thread is to suggest that each person should check with their rav to find out the answer. Perhaps there are ways to do all the paperwork etc before Shabbos, yet have it not take effect until a certain time on Shabbos morning. That would be very convenient. But if it all takes effect on Erev Shabbos, then there are several practical ramifications that people might not realize, especially for those who have reserved some chometz to be eaten on Shabbos. If the sale has already taken place on Erev Shabbos, then all my chometz MUST be gotten rid of on Shabbos morning. If the challah was too large for everyone to eat, I do not have the option of putting the remainder with the chometz to be sold. The sale already took place, and this chometz will remain mine. My only options are to eat it, or do some other form of biur. On the flip side, I also don't have the option of retrieving something from the "chometz to be sold" area. In a normal year, if it is Erev Pesach morning and there is an item in the "to be sold" area that I want to eat, there's no problem eating it. But this year, if the sale already took place on Erev Shabbos, then it is too late. Even entering that area would be a violation of the rental agreement. So if you're planning to sell your chometz this year, please ask your rav when the sale takes effect. Or show me where my logic is mistaken. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 10:14:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non- > compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing > the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the > letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit > of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. > claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than > learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance ... If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz sale contract..." cite: https://collive.com/rabbis-decide-to-unilateraly-sell-chometz-of-europes-jews/ I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. But this is an entirely different case. I appreciate the rabbis' desire to minimize the violations of these tinolos shenishbu. But it seems to me that this mechira would have the effect of totally circumventing the entire halacha of Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach. Details would need to be studied (like the status of chametz that a store acquires during Pesach) but on the simple face of it, this mechira would allow any of us to shop anywhere in chu"l after Pesach (at least b'dieved). The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law says not. When a Jew does melacha on Shabbos, and I want to get hanaah from it, halacha makes distinctions whether the melacha was done b'shogeg or b'meizid. Similar distinctions could have been applied to Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach, but instead, Chazal chose to legislate a boycott, in the hopes that these Jews would mend their ways. CONCLUSION AND DISCLAIMER: I am NOT suggesting that these rabanim are wrong. It is their job to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of such an idea. All I'm saying is that it seems to be a great example of how an implementation of the Letter might go very much against the Spirit. (And if it turns out that this article didn't get the story right, it's still an example of how Letter and Spirit *might* conflict.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 19 09:31:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:31:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? A. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 463:3) rules that flour made from roasted wheat kernels may not be mixed with water on Pesach. Even though wheat that is fully roasted cannot become chometz, we are concerned that perhaps some kernels were not properly roasted, and subsequently, the flour might become chometz when mixed with water. The same concern applies to matzah with flour on its surface. It is forbidden to mix such matzah with water because the flour may not be fully baked and would be susceptible to becoming chometz (MB 463:8). Where there is no perceptible flour in or on the matzah, is there a concern that some of the dough may not have been thoroughly mixed, and within the matzah there may be raw flour that was not fully baked? There are two different customs; Mishnah Berurah (458:4) notes that there are anshei ma?aseh, scrupulous individuals, who act stringently and do not allow matzah to come in contact with water, as perhaps it may contain unbaked flour. Many Chassidim have this custom. However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. Shaarei Teshuva, (OC 460:10) notes that both groups are meritorious. Those who do not eat gebrochts are motivated by yiras shomayim (fear of heaven), lest they inadvertently transgress the laws of Pesach. The ones who are lenient are concerned that not eating gebrochts will limit their simchas (joy of) Yom Tov. Shaarei Teshuva concludes: ?Both groups are pursuing paths for the sake of Heaven, and I declare: And Your people are entirely righteous (Yeshaya 60:21).? I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. " YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Fri Mar 19 05:19:02 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:19:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday Message-ID: <0d4301d71cba$0c5d12c0$25173840$@touchlogic.com> Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Mar 21 14:45:42 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:45:42 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 21, 2021 06:06:56 pm Message-ID: <16163811420.61bcacf5f.47748@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is > ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? > I think you need to clarify this common belief, before you ask the question. The belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may shower on Friday, to prepare for Shabbath, for yourself. Rather, the belief is that public aveluth, on Shabbath, spoils the mood, for others. If other people can notice that you have not showered, then your aveluth is intruding into the public space. If you smell like roses, the belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may nevertheless shower because you feel better when you do. It's not about you. It is the same logic that would allow you to stay (according to some opinions) after the xuppa at your daughter's wedding, if you are in aveluth -- not because you are allowed to celebrate her wedding, but because your absence would reduce her celebration. Of course, this hetter does not apply to weddings where there is a mexitza between the men and the women, because then your daughter cannot know that you are there anyway. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 07:22:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:22:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? A. The second cup of wine at the seder is filled after karpas so that Maggid (the central portion of the Haggadah) will be recited over the cup of wine. The Mishnah Berurah writes that after filling the cup, it is inappropriate to drink a separate cup of wine (Be?ur Halachah 473:3 s.v. Harishus). Both Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichos Shlomo, Hil. Pesach 9:34) and Rav Elyashiv (Shevus Yitzchok, Pesach 9:3) maintain that only wine is restricted, but in cases of necessity, one is permitted to drink water or coffee. Rav Elyashiv explains that unless there is a pressing need, even water should be avoided because the Haggadah should be recited with a sense of awe and reverence (see Mishnah Berurah 473:71). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 10:37:33 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:37:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322173733.GB27896@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 01:14:47PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." It's not really the Spirit vs the Letter of the Law, which is a Pauline concept. It's how much conformance to the spirit of the law are we obligated to obey beyond its letter. > I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even > without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for > people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. I would think because they are unlikely to get hana'ah from the chameitz, and therefore it's a case of zokhin le'adam shelo befanav. Here we would have to argue that consuming stolen chameitz is less than an issur than owning and consuming chameitz. And enough of a clear advantage that you can invoke "zokhin le'adam". So, I don't see: > The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law > says not. Because I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the da'as of the maqneh. So I would have argued the reverse: the spirit of the idea of no Jews owning chameitz on Pesach says it's a great idea, but it seems to me it would be the letter of the law that says it's impossible. As you phrased things, and you feel the halakhos of mechirah are met, there is a spirit of the law not being violated -- he shouln't want to own chameitz. I mean, this is far gentler than "kofin oso af al pi she'omer 'Rotzeh ani!'" I am wondering if there is an "al pi nistar" that is being addressed with even the flimsiest excuse of a sale. (While not a Chabad group, founder R Menachem Margolin and most (? all?) of the other members of RCE and EJA are Lubavitcher Chassidim. So, when I don't understand what they're doing al pi nigleh, I wonder if they have some al pi nistar motive.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp, http://www.aishdas.org/asp And the Torah, its light. Author: Widen Your Tent - based on Mishlei 6:2 - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 09:55:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 12:55:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322165547.GA27896@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:20:30AM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done > until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles > be lit and the seder begin. This is generally what one hears as pesaq. And I understand warning people not to forget that melakhah is prohibited, even for the seder. (The RBSO also had to remind us that melakhah is prohibited even for the Miskan.) But I don't get reason for saying no hakhanah. I would think that since the seder (or any se'udas Yom Tov) is a devar mitzvah, a shevus, such as hakhanah, would be allowed during bein hashemashos. (Assuming no melakhah is involved.) I found some sources when we discussed this back in v33n46. https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n046.shtml#01 The Rambam (Shabbos 254:10), MB 211:28, 30, AhS OC 261:11 (who allows "lidevar mitzvah o tzorekh harbei", arguably not delaying the seder is both.) So I don't know why "everyone" bans setting the table, getting the pillows and kitls out, etc..., until tzeis. It seems to me that the MB and AhS would agree you could start at sheqi'ah. Of course, I'm no poseiq. Just wondering about the gap between what I learned and the generally repeated pesaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow http://www.aishdas.org/asp man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries Author: Widen Your Tent about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 22 14:57:33 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:57:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2205c312-d18c-b963-6a89-e4de0bf1661e@sero.name> On 19/3/21 12:31 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., > citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not > /halachicaly/ mandated, Of course it isn't. Literally nobody claims it is. So what does your citation achieve? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 14:58:13 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 21:58:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] cRc Kashrus Alerts In-Reply-To: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> References: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> Message-ID: ________________________________ Tevilas Keilim Update Having trouble reading this email? View it in your browser.<{{onlineview()}}> [KASHRUTH ALERT HEADER] March 22, 2021 Last year, due to COVID-19 restrictions, consumers who were unable to tovel their new keilim (utensils) before Pesach were advised to make them ownerless (mafkir) to exempt them from tevilah. This was a special leniency due to COVID-19 when the local mikvaos were closed. This year, Boruch Hashem. those restrictions have been lifted as the mikvaos are open and have been deemed safe to use. Accordingly, before using those keilim which were made ownerless last year, one should ?reacquire? them by picking them up and then tovel them (with a bracha, if required). Anyone who is still unable to arrange for the tevila of their kelim due to exigent circumstances should be in touch with us for further instructions. Chag Kasher v'Sameach. ************************************************************************************ TO REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, please send your comment or question to the cRc at info at crcweb.org The cRc?s app is available for the iPhone, Android, Kindle, and BlackBerry 10. For product information see our Web-based Application ASKcRc where kosher consumers can check the kosher status of hechsherim, beverages, liquors, foods, fruits & vegetables, Slurpees, medicines, and more. The information is accessible via a simple search box, and the site is optimized to work on mobile as well as desktop devices. https://ASKcRc.org http://twitter.com/crckosher http://cRcweb.org Chicago Rabbinical Council 2701 W Howard Street Chicago Illinois 60645-1303 United States This email was sent to: llevine at stevens.edu Unsubscribe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 22 15:39:14 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:39:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 16:35:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:35:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder Message-ID: I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of things about the seder. I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. The following is from his Introduction to his Shiurim on the Haggadah: >From my earliest youth, 1 remember that children would ask each other on the first morning of Pesach, "How long did your Seder take?" This was true in my youth, and it is still the case today. If the children were to ask me this now, 1 would answer them, "I made sure to eat the afikoman before chatzos (midnight)." According to some poskim, even the recitation of Halle[ should be completed before chatzos. I must point out that the present-day practice in which all the children read from the prepared sheets they received in school is not exactly in accordance with the mitzvah of and you shall tell to your children, etc. (ibid.). The children have initiated a new mitzvah of and you shall tell to your father and mother, which makes it very challenging to perform the mitzvah of achilas matzah and certainly the achilas a{zkoman - before chatzos. YL YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 20:06:44 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:06:44 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . I wrote about an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." R' Micha Berger wrote: > I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the > da'as of the maqneh. A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak, I'm not going to be the one who says that the Rabbanut is wrong for choosing to do it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 23 06:38:53 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:38:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Preparing for the Seder This Year Message-ID: The following is from today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. Being that this year Shabbos is Erev Pesach when should the preparation of the shank bone, charoses, marror, roasted egg, salt water and checking the romaine lettuce take place? A. Seder preparations should be done on Friday, as it is prohibited to prepare on Shabbos for the next day. (This is known as hachana. One may not even nap on Shabbos and say, ?I am resting now to be alert at the Seder?. See M.B. 290.4.) While it would be permitted to prepare some of these items on Saturday night, it would delay the start of the Seder. Much of the seder focuses on the children, and it is important to start the seder as soon as possible before the children fall asleep (M.B.482.1). According to the Vilna Gaon, horseradish should always be grated immediately before the seder so that it will be sharp. Others say it should be grated before Shabbos and stored in a sealed jar to maintain the sharpness as much as possible. If one forgot to prepare horseradish before Shabbos, the grating should preferably be done with a shinui (deviation, such as grating on a paper towel or turning the grater upside down). Romaine lettuce that requires checking for infestation should be checked before Shabbos. One must be careful to drain the lettuce very well. Otherwise, water might accumulate in the bags, and any parts of the lettuce that soaks in water for more than twenty-four hours may not be used for maror (M.B. 473.38). If salt water was not prepared in advance, it can made on Yom Tov (implication of Mishna Berurah 473:21), though some recommend using a shinui by putting the water in the vessel before the salt (Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 118:4). If charoses was not made before Shabbos, the fruit may be grated on Yom Tov, but the nuts should be prepared with a shinui (Shemiras Shabbos Kihilchoso 7:4) (such as crushing in a bag). No deviation is needed when adding the wine (see M.B.495:8). It is preferable to roast the shank bone and egg before Shabbos. If roasted on Yom Tov, they must be eaten on that day of Yom Tov. Since one may not eat roasted meat or chicken at the seder, the shank bone that was prepared Saturday night must be eaten at the Sunday daytime meal (MB 473:32). In general, one may not prepare food on the first day of Yom Tov if the intention is to consume it on the second day or after Yom Tov. (This would constitute hachana, which is forbidden.) As such, another shank bone and egg will have to be roasted Sunday night for the second seder, and the same is true for the preparation of marror, charoses and salt water. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 23 06:58:06 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:58:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 00:59, Prof. L. Levine wrote: > I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck > the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in > the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to > expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. > Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of > things about the seder. > > I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. ... I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the 14th Nissan). This would suggest short Sedarim. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:29:12 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:29:12 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323142912.GC31103@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:06:44PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi > Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef > Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or > were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that > they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). > So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for > Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak... I did't have that big of a problem with the idea of invoking ZlASbF, where the person wasn't going to get hana'ah from the chameitz. Like the people going to RYEH last minute before Pesach. Or my example of someone in a coma. But if people are alive and well and keeping their chameitz around and don't even know it is sold, it isn't a pure zekhus to sell it. They want their chameitz to use it. So, I don't think this precedent addresses my discomfort with the idea. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element http://www.aishdas.org/asp in us could exist without the human element Author: Widen Your Tent or vice versa. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:57:37 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:57:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323145736.GD31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 01:58:06PM +0000, allan.engel at gmail.com wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night... Assuming they held like R Elazar ben Azariah and like R Eliezer in the two machloqesin discussed on Berakhos 9a. R Aqiva and R Yehoshua hold the mitzvah is until the morning. (The first machloqes is about the word "boqer", the second is how to parse Devarim 16:6 -- do you eat kevo hasemesh (sunset to chatzos), or until mo'eid tzesekha miMitzrayim?) Stam Mishnah Pesachim 10:9 talks about the pesach being metamei the hands after chatzos, because that's when it becomes nosar (TY vilna 71b, TB 120b). Zevachim 37a states that this mishnah is according to R Aqiva. The Rambam (Hil' Qorban Pesach 8:15) says the Pesach is only eaten until midnight kedai leharchiq min ha'aveirah, and deOraisa it's okay all night. So he hold like R Aqiva and R Yehoshua, with the kelal we get from R Gamliel in 1:1 that any mitzvah that is permitted all night deOraisa has a derabbanan making it lekhatchilah before chatzos, leharciq min ha'aveirah. So, whether they were very careful with a safe estimate or chatzos-ish was good enough depended on who they held like. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 23 07:46:28 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:46:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: From a letter to the editor: Although abortion is not necessarily considered to be an act of murder, it is nonetheless prohibited in accordance with Halakha (Jewish law). The statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect, as well. Any modern ruling is based on our teachings that go back to our receiving the Torah at Mount Sinai. The laws that we follow are g-d given and not something that the Jewish people came up with in their 40 years in the desert. The author clearly has no grasp on our true heritage and unfortunately feels that she can opine in an area where she has no expertise. Me- I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? CKVS Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 08:55:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:55:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323155513.GE31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 02:46:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness > of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," > is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a > way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) > that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? There are cases where halakhah grows to cover new situations. In many of them we could have extrapolated very different pesaqim for the new from what exists already. Like, in the case of electricity on Shabbos. So, halakhah grows. Changes in facts on the ground don't drive an "evolution" of halakhah. They're really just a non-obvious case of the above. The whole point of such changes isn't that we switched sides on a machloqes, but that the side chosen in the past doesn't work in the new case. So we need to grow new halakhah for the new situation. Even if on most levels it feels like we're doing the same thing but with a new pesaq. Like educable deaf-mutes. We didn't do away with din cheireish. And anyone uneducable because they can neither hear nor talk would qualify. We just don't have too many people like that any more. (RHS, for example, includes the pesi, the sane but intellectually diabled, as cheireish not shoteh. With implications (e.g.) WRT gittin after brain injury.) And then there are cases of actual evolution, where we are following new pesaqim. Halakhah evolves but according kelalei pesaq. Of course, kelalei pesaq are themselves subject to pesaqim, so they could evolve as well. And precedent isn't the only kelal in pesaq. Or, if precedent shifts unconsciously, mimetically. Like an increase in the number of people who just take it for granted that they should look to the soft-stringencies (baal nefesh yachmir and such) in the MB for their rulings rather than the MB's pesaqim or the AhS's. Or RMF grows in esteem, and LORs shift from R Henkin's pesaqim to spending more time with IM. The publishing (and new editions) of Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhasa similarly changed which pesaqim the LOR spends time analyzing, and which get accepted. So, rulings can in principle change. That was a very legal description. R/Dr Moshe Koppel convinced me of a very Rupture-and-Reconstruction-esque understanding of how halakhah evolves, in which dinim are more like laws of a language. So, at Har Sinai, we didn't need as many pesaqim. We were fully emersed in the halachic language, and had a native speaker's ear for what sounds right. And a good poet, a navi, can know just how and when the rules can be occasionally bent or even more rarely broken. But as we lose that culture we become more like English as a second language students, who need more rules. (And we have no idea what's valid poetic license.) And so, as we lose culture halakhah gains formality and rigidity. A steady shift from a mimetic "sounds right" to a textual law book. Until a rupture can cause a major step in this progression. Moshe dies, laws are lost, Osniel ben Kenaz is meyaseid them again. Numerous dinim were similarly codified by Anshei Keneses haGedolah, this is R/Dr Koppel's take on shakhechum vechazar veyasdum. And then we needed a mishnah, an actual structured code to memorize. Then shas, then writing them down... then rishonim wrote codes, and to add my own example -- the way the AhS and then MB were embraced. That is a kind of evolution where the range of valid practices narrow for a situation that didn't change nor did we learn more about the situation. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:28:39 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:28:39 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Evolved" implies an improvement, to a form more adapted to survival and therefore better. The Jewish view of the way halacha has changed over the years is one of devolution; both when we become more lenient because we don't care as much, and when we become stricter because we need it to correct our tendency to leniency, or because we have lost the knowledge on which our ancestors' leniency depended ("ein anu beki'in"). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:17:14 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:17:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f754e36-46c3-705d-e762-e28417b4da88@sero.name> On 23/3/21 9:58 am, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa > (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the > 14th Nissan). Not necessarily. Sinch chatzos is only a geder to prevent it running past dawn, people may have been generous in calculating it, knowing that if they ran over it by a little it was no big deal. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 23 10:48:22 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:48:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat. I turned to Rabbi Eli Gersten who wrtites the OU's Halacha Yomis Column this very question and I forward his answer with his permission. Question: Regarding: Halacha Yomis - Prepping The Seder Plate Since Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat, why can't Hakhanot for the Seder be done on Shabbat? Yiyasher Kochacha for your informative and lucid articles Chak Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh Answer: Yes, and No. See below what the Chayei Adam [Hilkhot Shabbat U-Moadim, sec. 153:6] writes about being maichen on Shabbos or Yomtov for a davar Mitzvah. There are many rules. Only for a dvar mitzvah, and even then only partial hachana, and done with a shinuy, and not close to end of Shabbos, so it is not obvious... ??? ??? ??? ?-? (????? ??? ???????) ??? ??? ???? ? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????. ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ??????? ???? ???, ??? ????. ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ???? (????? ?? ??? ???? ?"? ???? ???' ??"? ???? ?' ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?' ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?"? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????"? ????? ???? ?? ?' ?"? ????? ?? ????? ??' ??"? ?? ?????? ??' ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??"?), ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????. ??? ???? ?????"? ????? ??"? ??"? ???"? ????? ????? ??????? ????, ?? ??????? ????. ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????. ????? ??? ????? ??"? ?? ???? ??' ???? ??"? ?"?. ???? ?? ??"? ??"? ?? ??"? ????? ????? ??"? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????. ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???, ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ?? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????, ??? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????, ?? ????. ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????. ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????. Rabbi Eli Gersten Rabbinic Coordinator 212-613-8222-phone Gerstene at ou.org Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 16:47:46 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323234746.GC24196@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 05:48:22PM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From > Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often > permitted on Shabbat. I specifically brought up starting at sheqei'ah instead of waiting for tzeis because it then involves two factors and there is STRONG consensus to allow: shevus bein hashemeshos, and lidevar mitzvah. No new sources since last time. Just pointing out that The answer from R Eli Gersten of OU's Halacha Yomis doesn't actually help me understand why we cannot start setting the seder table at sheqi'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When we are no longer able to change a situation http://www.aishdas.org/asp -- just think of an incurable disease such as Author: Widen Your Tent inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF ourselves. - Victor Frankl (MSfM) From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Tue Mar 23 19:35:46 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 02:35:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: <278FC3E1-165C-4DFE-89FF-DA7AD035BF6B@tenzerlunin.com> "I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts?? My thought is that Jewish law is too complex to sum up in a letter to the editor even if everyone reading it is Orthodox. And, of course, Jews who are not Orthodox have a different view of Jewish law. Thus, to say in a letter to the editor that "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so? is correct or incorrect is an exercise of futility. Joseph From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:54:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:54:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Egg Matza on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In last week's issue of Ami magazine (4 Nisan, #510) Rabbi Moshe Taub's column is about Shabbos Erev Pesach. On page 162, he gives ideas for how to do the seudos, writing: "B. Use egg matzah. This would only work for Ashkenazim,..." Why would this not work for Sefaradim? Do they hold that egg matza is not pas habaa bkisnin? Do they hold that Pas habaa bkisnin remains mezonos even when one is kovea seuda on it? Maybe it's just not practical to eat 3-4 kebtitzos of it. Any other ideas? thanks Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 06:38:09 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:38:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Some people do not want to have any chametz on the table Shabbos erev Pesach. Can kosher for Pesach egg matzos be used for lechem mishneh? A. Egg matzah is in the category of pas ha?ba b?kisnin (bread-like items that are usually eaten for a snack). Ordinarily, if one eats egg matzah the bracha is borei minai mezonos, unless it is part of a substantial meal. Nonetheless, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe OC 1:155) writes that if egg matzah is used for lechem Mishnah for a Shabbos meal, the bracha is hamotzi. One should make sure to eat at least a kibaiya (a little more than 2 fl. oz) of egg matzah, in addition to other foods that will be served at the meal. According to many opinions egg matzah can only be eaten as long as chometz can be consumed, which is the end of the fourth hour. The Rema (OC 444:1) writes that in our communities, egg matzah is not eaten on Pesach. Therefore, on erev Pesach one should fulfill shalosh seudos with fruit. The implication of Rema is that egg matzah may not be eaten on erev Pesach in the afternoon. However, the Chok Yaakov (444:1) writes that it is possible that the Rema only meant that one is not required to find egg matzah for Shalosh Seudos since it was uncommon in their communities, but if one had egg matzah it may be eaten. The Sharei Teshuva (444:2) as well writes that there is a basis to be lenient. Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doniels at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:30:39 2021 From: doniels at gmail.com (Danny Schoemann) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:30:39 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months Message-ID: Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles with the source of the name Marcheshvan. Online at https://www.sefaria.org.il/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Even_HaEzer.126.17 (Interestingly enough, in 126:19 he says there's a Kometz under these months, Nison, Iyor, Sivon, Marcheshvon, Shvot, Ador.) Kol Tuv - Danny On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, R' Brent Kaufman wrote: >> Now that the ancient pantheons of gods have been brought up, can anyone >> give an explanation for why the we name our months after Babylonian gods? RMB replied: > Of the ones we know translations for, only Tammuz. Warach Dumuzu means "the month of [the god] Tammuz". > This month, Warach Samnu, which becomes Marcheshvan when mem and yud/vav swap during the borrowing, simply means "8th month". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 03:39:37 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:39:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement Message-ID: The fact it that the Shabbatzi Tzvi movement swept the Jewish world. Many important rabbonim became his followers. For example, see my article "Recife - The First Jewish Community in the New World" The Jewish Press, June 3, 2005, page 32. Glimpses into American Jewish History Part 3. The concluding paragraph there is *After finishing this article I discovered that Rabbi Isaac Aboab da Fonseca was apparently a follower of Shabbtai Tzvi. (See www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. jsp?artid=344&letter=A#810, The Sabbatean Prophets by Matt Goldish page 33, and Sabbatai Sevi by Gershom Scholem, pages 520-522.) To put it mildly, I was shocked, given the greatness of Rabbi Aboab. However, it made me realize how strong the messianic movement in the 17th century must have been to gain adherents of Rabbi Aboab`s caliber. Jacob Sasportas was one of the most violent antagonists of the Shabbethaian movement; he wrote many letters to various communities in Europe, Asia, and Africa, exhorting them to unmask the impostors and to warn the people against them. However, I do not believe that he was considered a gadol by many. So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 10:52:04 2021 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:52:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) In-Reply-To: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> References: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. For example, at https://baisdovyosef.com/2861-a-clean-slate-on-clean-hands/ Rabbi Bartfeld quotes him as stringent on foaming soap. My chevrusa asked Rabbi Felder from Toronto to ask him about this, and he said he is mattir whipped cream from a can on Shabbos /v'harei ha'devarim kal va'chomer/. KT, CKvS, YGB On 3/22/2021 6:39 PM, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%20all.doc?dl=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Avodah mailing list > Avodah at lists.aishdas.org > http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:30:10 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:30:10 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:39:37AM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for him. So, those who wanted to believe had who to rely on. (Kind of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it actually is cosidered "a thing".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Circumstances don't make a person, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they reveal a person. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:34:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:34:22 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193422.GB16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 05:30:39PM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote: > Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles > with the source of the name Marcheshvan. It his conclusion of that discussion says that he considers these explanations derashos, because RYME writes "Amnam be'eemes ein doreshin besheimos". So, I don't think he is repeating them as possible sources as much as derashos some find meaningful. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 13:31:29 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:31:29 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 03:30 PM 3/24/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > >There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei >hador. Didn't help. There was not a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Jacob Sasportas was the one who had the courage to come out against the movement. He was essentially a loan voice. Others either went along with the movement or said nothing. R. Eybeschutz was himself suspected of being a follower of ST. in fact, I believe that his son outwardly became a follower. Whether R. Eybeschutz was indeed a follower was never fully determined. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 17:10:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] R. Eybeschutz and ST In-Reply-To: <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1B.B0.11863.285DB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:24 PM 3/24/2021, micha at aishdas.org wrote: >I grew up living around the corner from the home of R SZ Leiman. He davened >(davens?) in the shteibl where my father sheyichyeh was president. I kind of >heard this story before, in a lot more detail. Which is why my post got >written to begin with. > >You are mistaken. The RYE vs RYE fight was one of many. Keep in mind that Rabbi Eybeschutz was born in 1690, long after Shabbatai Tzvi converted to Islam. Indeed ST died in 1676. Hence he could not have been involved in any discussion about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. Rabbi Yaakov Emden was born in 1697, so he also could not have been involved in any discussions about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz Already in Prague 1724, he was suspected of being a Sabbatean. He even got up on Yom Kippur to denounce the Sabbatean movement, but he remained suspected.[2] Therefore, In 1736, Rav Eybeschutz was only appointed dayan of Prague and not chief rabbi. He became rabbi of Metz in 1741. In 1750, he was elected rabbi of the "Three Communities:" Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbek. In July 1725, the Ashkenazic beit din of Amsterdam issued a ban of excommunication on the entire Sabbatian sect (kat ha-ma?aminim). Writings of Sabbatian nature found by the beit Din at that time were attributed to Rav Eybeschutz [3] In early September, similar excommunication proclamations were issued by the batei din of Frankfurt and the triple community of Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbeck. The three bans were printed and circulated in other Jewish communities throughout Europe.[4] Rabbi Ezekiel Katzenellenbogen, the chief rabbi of the Triple Community [5] was unwilling to attack Rav Eybesch?tz publicly, mentioning that ?greater than him have fallen and crumbled? and that ?there is nothing we can do to him? [6] However, Rabbi Katzenelenbogen stated that one of the texts found by the Amsterdam beit din "Va-Avo ha-Yom el ha-Ayyin? was authored by Rav Jonathan Eybesch?tz and declared that the all copies of the work that were in circulation should be immediately burned. [7]As a result of Rav Eybeschutz and other rabbis in Prague formulating a new (and different) ban against Sabbatianism shortly after the other bans were published, his reputation was restored and Rav Eybeschutz was regarded as having been totally vindicated.[8] The issue was to arise again, albeit tangentially, in the 1751 dispute between Rav Emden and Rav Eybeschutz. Sabbatian controversy Rav Eybesch?tz again became suspected of harboring secret Sabbatean beliefs because of a dispute that arose concerning the amulets which he was suspected of issuing. It was alleged that these amulets recognized the Messianic claims of Sabbatai Zevi.[9] The controversy started when Rav Yaakov Emden found serious connections between the Kabbalistic and homiletic writings of Rav Eybeschutz with those of the known Sabbatean Judah Leib Prossnitz, whom Rav Eybesch?tz knew from his days in Prossnitz.[2] Rabbi Jacob Emden accused him of heresy.[9] The majority of the rabbis in Poland, Moravia, and Bohemia, as well as the leaders of the Three Communities supported Rav Eybesch?tz: the accusation was "utterly incredible"?in 1725, Rav Eybesch?tz was among the Prague rabbis who excommunicated the Sabbateans. Others suggest that the Rabbis issued this ruling because they feared the repercussions if their leading figure, Rav Eybesch?tz, was found to be a Sabbatean. Rabbi Jacob Emden suggests that the rabbis decided against attacking Eybeschutz out of a reluctance to offend his powerful family and a fear of rich supporters of his living in their communities [10] The recent discovery of notarial copies of the actual amulets found in Metz and copying the amulets written by Rav Eyebeschutz support Rav Emden's view that these are Sabbatean writings.[11] In 1752, the controversy between Rav Emden and Rav Eybesch?tz raged.Clashes between opposing supporters occurred in the streets drawing the attention of the secular authorities.[12] Rav Emden fled. The controversy was heard by both the Senate of Hamburg and by the Royal Court of Denmark. The Hamburg Senate quickly found in favour of Rav Eybeschutz.[13] The King of Denmark asked Rav Eybeschutz to answer a number of questions about the amulets.Conflicting testimony was put forward and the matter remained officially unresolved[14] although the court imposed fines on both parties for civil unrest and ordered that Rav Emden be allowed to return to Altona.[15] At this point Rav Eybeschutz was defended by Carl Anton, a convert to Christianity, but a former disciple of Rav Eybesch?tz.[16] Rav Emden refused to accept the outcome and sent out vicious pamphlets attacking Rav Eybeschutz.[17] Rav Eyebeschutz was re-elected as Chief Rabbi. In December of that year, the Hamburg Senate rejected both the King's decision and the election result. The Senate of Hamburg started an intricate process to determine the powers of Rav Eybesch?tz, and many members of that congregation demanded that he should submit his case to rabbinical authorities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Mar 24 20:30:38 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 23:30:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <018e01d72127$39a11c60$ace35520$@touchlogic.com> RYGB writes.I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. I have personally been present multiple times when Rabbi Bartfeld discusses his questions w RSM. RB often will write them up, and then review his written answer (if complex) with RSM a second time. I can't promise that broken telephone has never occurred, but the process is pretty error free. Offhand I have only found one RB psak that was different than what RSM told me personally (wearing snowshoes where there is no eruv). It is possible that RSM has changed his mind on that issue (it has been 25yrs+ since I asked the original shaylah) As for your question, I personally have discussed whipped cream from a can on Shabbos with RSM and it is true that he is matir, and is also not concerned with the shape (round, T, etc) formed in the whipped cream by the tip either. As for your question from foaming soap, yesh l'tareitz KT, CKvS, MC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Mar 24 10:18:29 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:18:29 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] Correct Spelling Of Foreign Terms In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 24, 2021 02:33:32 pm Message-ID: <16166243090.4D54BC1.92753@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came >> to the Shabbatai Movement? >> > > Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > > There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei > hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for > him. So, those who wanted to believe had who[m] to rely on. (Kind > of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it > actually is co[n]sidered "a thing".) > I don't remember whether I have said this before on this mailing list. If I have, I apologize for the redundancy. The Hebrew words for kimono and sushi are (I am guessing with strong confidence) "kimono" and "sushi". They are foreign terms, describing foreign things, and when we speak Hebrew, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought these terms into our language. (To be more pedantically correct, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought those terms into our language, to the extent that we are able to imitate them. Our ancestors, for example, could not pronounce foreign words that begin with a shva nax, like Platon and specularia and Xshawerosh, but they did the best they could.) The people who believe in Das Torah do not pronounce the word with a pharyngeal, or even a glottal, stop. They pronounce it "Das Torah". And, since Das Torah is a foreign concept, that does not exist in traditional Judaism, it should be pronounced the way it is pronounced by the people who brought the term into our language, for the same reason that we pronounce kimono "kimono", and sushi "sushi". And when we write it with the Latin alphabet, we should write the first word with one 'a', not with two, showing the same fidelity to its correct pronunciation that we do with any other foreign word. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 13:44:52 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:44:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: . R' Yitzchok Levine quoted the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis <<< Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. >>> I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? Do other ingredients affect this? I have always presumed that all kinds of Matza Ashira are a subset of Pas Habaa Bkisnin, excluding any and all Chometz. In other words, flour and whatever you want except water. Am I mistaken? Is the definition more complicated than that? (Note: I was surprised to find such a wide variety of recipes for egg matza. (We had a large crowd on Erev Pesach, so I bought 4 different boxes so people could sample the different flavors.) Streit's has apple cider and eggs. Aviv Egg Matzah has apple juice, egg, and sugar. Aviv Egg & Onion has an unnamed "pure fruit juice" with sugar, onion powder and egg. Manischewitz contains "pure apple or grape juice" and eggs.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 30 18:49:03 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:49:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30/3/21 4:44 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah > ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it > matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? According to the Rambam, 6:5, Matza is only defined as Ashira if it's made with wine, oil, honey, or milk, but if it's made with Mei Perot it's still Lechem Oni. https://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3506.htm#6 -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 08:30:05 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] To Atone for All our Sins Message-ID: At the Seder, after Dayenu, we have a paragraph in which Dayenu is summarized. "He took us out of Mitzrayim... and He fed us manna... and He brought us to Har Sinai, etc etc and He built the Beis Habechira for us, to be m'chaper for our avonos." My daughter-in-law asked: Why do we need those last words? Let the list end simply, like Dayenu itself did: "... and He built the Beis Habechira for us [full stop]." Or, if some sort of editorializing is needed, let it be on a positive note: "... where we can be close to Him" or "...where He can dwell among us." But at this point in the Seder, (arguably) the very last words of Maggid, where we have finally completed our trip from Genai to Shevach, and from Yagon to Simcha, why do we sully the waters by mentioning our sins (even if the context is forgiveness)? My only guess is that these words serve as a bookend to Maggid's start ("In the beginning we were idolators"), but that doesn't help much; is this bookend really needed, or even helpful? Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhecht at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 13:11:38 2021 From: rhecht at gmail.com (Rafael Jason Hecht) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:11:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Techeiles and Bal Tosif Message-ID: Does anyone know if there are any issues regarding Bal Tosif when wearing the new Techeiles today? (As an aside, one speaker who will address this issue is R' Chaim Twerski - https://www.techeiles.org/yom-iyun). Thanks and Good Shabbos, Rafi Hecht *rhecht at gmail.com* ------------------------------------------------------- *LinkedIN:* *http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rafihecht* *Facebook:* *http://www.facebook.com/rhecht* *Twitter:* *https://www.twitter.com/#!/rafihecht* *Personal Site:* *www.rafihecht.com* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Jan 3 05:31:30 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2021 08:31:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? Message-ID: At 09:49 PM 1/2/2021 ,R Micha Berger wrote: >The AhS (se'if 4) gives a reason to put a gartl on even if you are >wearing a belt. The pasuq reads "Hakhon liqras E-lokhekha Yisrael". >The gemara (Shabbos 10a) gives examples of such hakhanos. The AhS brings >down this gemara earlier (se'if 1) and refers to it here. > >Putting on a gartl has become a traditional way to prepare oneself to >meet the RBSO, and even if today's fashion makes it rarely necessary >for ein libo ro'eh es ha'erva, the AhS believes the practice should not >be stopped. > >And that's from the Litvisher poseiq known for finding meqoros for >justifying minhag! I would guess that in Litta, gartelach were far more >common than among today's "Litvish". I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off his tie and used it as a gartel for davening. Rav Schwab said, "He should have left his tie on his neck. He already had a separation between his upper and lower body, since he was wearing a belt. Wearing a tie is appropriate for davening" I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should wear them out. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 07:14:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:14:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103151439.GB20407@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 03, 2021 at 08:31:30AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off > his tie and used it as a gartel for davening.... Yes, it could be that dressing fit for a melekh when speaking to the Melekh Malkhei hamlakhim is more important than putting on a gartel if you are already wearing a belt. Not really relevant to whether one should wear a gartel when there is no such trade-off. > I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After > all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their > tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should > wear them out. Mah inyan shemitah eitzel Har Sinai? The MB and AhS are very different books. One of the more spoken about differences is that the MB is a survey of acharonim who post-date the standardized SA page. The MB therefore leans toward clean-slate theory. He doesn't give much weight to centuries of accepted practice. So, the MB could say something about wearing tzitzis out that no one did. (Also, because he tells you the book is a survey of later sefarim, there is no reason to believe he expected people to follow his seifer lemaaseh. And thus it is less surprising that the CC himself didn't always follow what was written there.) The AhS is famous for finding how accepted practice is theoretically sound. (When possible, of course.) If some hold a gartel is necessary and some not, so that both sides are sound pesaqim, the AhS will almost always side with whatever is being done. Thus, the AhS's pesaq is evidence of what Litvaks held, whereas the MB's pesaq isn't. It's a methodology difference between the two works discussed on-list repeatedly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The goal isn't to live forever, http://www.aishdas.org/asp the goal is to create so mething that will. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 3 06:39:18 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 14:39:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Shimon Schwab on Chillul Hashem Message-ID: The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash pages 191 to 193. Note his message to the embezzler! Living in Caius America, the malchus shel chessed, only strengthens the Jew's obligation to create a kiddush Hashem. The Rav taught that every form of chillul Hashem decreases awareness of the Divine presence in this world. If the perpetrator is supposedly an observant Jew or, worse, a so-called Torah scholar, then the offense is that much greater. He would ask: "How can a person who has cheated his neighbor or defrauded the government have the audacity to stand in front of the congregation and recite Kaddish, a prayer for sanctifying G-d's Name in the world?" The Rav's greatest fear was of a chillul Hashem. On his checks, he never used the title "Rabbi." He told me that he was always concerned that if, G-d forbid, a check were to bounce, "Rabbi" would add to the chillul Hashem. Many years ago, a shameful scandal erupted around a Jewish businessman who was tried for embezzlement. Influential members of the embezzler's community approached Rav Schwab with a plea that he do what he could to save the man from prison. Rav Schwab became extremely agitated. He pointed out that the man's behavior, widely publicized in the media through the printed word and the television screen, had caused a tremendous chillul Hashem; the man had become .a virtual rodef of Kial Yisrael, because Jews everywhere would suffer aniti-Semitism due to his actions. He forthrightly told the visitors that the embezzler deserved to sit in prison for a long time. But he pleaded with them to give the embezzler a message: The m;111 should shave off his beard and take off his yarmulke when appearing i11 court or on television, because by wearing these religious accoutremenh, he would be creating a new chilluf Hashem every day and would be a living disgrace for the Jewish People. In Selected Writings, Rav Schwab wrote extensively on the topic of chilul Hashem: "If one steals from a non-Jew, swears falsely and dies, his death does not atone for his sin because of chillul Hashem (Tosefta Bava Kamma 10). Let us repeat. The profaners and desecrators give us all a rotten name, aiding and abetting our many adversaries and antagonizing our few friends. Therefore, no white-washing, no condoning, no apologizing on behalf of the desecrators. Let us make it clear that anyone who besmirches the sacred Name ceases to be our friend. He has unwittingly defected from our ranks and has joined our antagonists, to make us suffer in his wake. And -noblesse oblige- the more prominent a man in Orthodox Jewish circles, the more obligated he must feel to observe the most painstaking scrupulousness in his dealings with the outside world." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 05:32:03 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 08:32:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Spoiler alert: The reason I'm asking is that I have found some evidence (within Chazal) that a besula *can* become pregnant from her first act. But I don't want to expound on that evidence pointlessly, so I'll come forward only if there really is such a Chazal. Thanks in advance. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 08:36:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 11:36:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai Message-ID: . About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring how authoritative the targumim are. This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the first pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, and in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In my opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that a translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. So I decided to post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear in Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were probably his own. M'inyan l'inyan b'oso inyan... I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer Bereshis (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* translates it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". It's not until Sefer Shemos that Onkelos changes his style. Never again does he leave Ivri as Ivri; we are (or are becoming) a nation, and it seems that Onkelos wants his audience to be able to identify with that nation, by unambiguously translating it as Yehudi. This is true in Shemos 1:15, 1:16, 1:19, 2:6, 2:7, 2:11, 2:13, 3:18, 5:3, 7:16, 9:1, 9:13, and 10:3. (After Parshas Bo, the word Ivri does not appear again in the Torah, with three exceptions: Shmos 21:2, and twice in Devarim 15:12. All three of those are in the context of an Eved Ivri, and Onkelos translates "Ivri" as "Bar Yisrael." I find this to be a very reasonable change: If Onkelos had used either "Ivri" or "Yehudi", then the result would have been ambiguous, possibly meaning an eved who is *owned* by a Jew. By translating as "Bar Yisrael" in those cases, it clearly refers only to an eved who *is* a Jew.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 10:04:47 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 13:04:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Existing practice driving halacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103180447.GA5628@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 07:34:51AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > There's a recurring discussion on the list about the mechanism for > existing Jewish practice being a source for ongoing psak halacha. In view > of which I thought it useful to share an essay by R Hutner in Pachad > Yitzchak on Chanuka, maamar 14. He posits that there are two distinct > drivers of the obligation to maintain any given takana... Isn't this a different topic? Taqanos and gezeiros are dinim derabbanan. And the source of our obligation here would be the source for considering a new halakhah as binding: > the beis din concerned and the extent to which Klal Yisrael accepts and > keeps the takana. Each works independently. But pesaq is an interpretation of existing din. The AhS, noted for his support of minhag Yisrael (as I recently noted yet again on another thread), doesn't pasqen that married women don't have to cover their hair. Instead, he talks about how sad it is that this is the norm, and dicusses the impact of that norm on hilkhos qeri'as Shema. (Seeing a married woman with uncovered hair isn't a distraction when the site is commonplace, and therefore saying Shema in that situation is permitted.) Speaking of the AhS... I have been watching through this round of AhS Yomi, and I don't have a clear picture of his position yet. Sometimes it seems that RYME supports minhag Yisrael for "im lo nevi'im heim" or "she'eiris Yisrael lo yaaseh avlah" type reasons. Collectively, we have siyata diShmaya. At other times it seems RYME is resting on the authority of the centuries of posqim who allowed the practice to flourish. Not directly on the masses, but using common practice as evidence of a silent majority of formal sources. > However there's an important distinction in the mechanism by which > each works. The beis din's takana works through da'as, ie the conscious > decision to enact a practice. In contradistinction, acceptance of any > given practice by klal yisrael works specifically without da'as... Brilliant! The masses are the keepers of mimetic tradition. The second we think about it and plan, it's textual / formal tradition, and requires the expertise of rabbanim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A sick person never rejects a healing procedure http://www.aishdas.org/asp as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what Author: Widen Your Tent other people think when dealing with spiritual - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF matters? - Rav Yisrael Salanter From mgluck at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 16:51:49 2021 From: mgluck at gmail.com (Moshe Y. Gluck) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 19:51:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: R' AM: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? > And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? > > Yevamos 34a. KT, MYG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:07:30 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:07:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fw: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________ The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:23:00 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:23:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? Message-ID: Yesterday my 5-year-old grandson Yisroel Meir Levine ask me the following question. "Zaidie, why do they break a plate and a g;ass at a Chasanah?" A google search yields The breaking of the glass holds multiple meanings. Some say it represents the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Others say it demonstrates that marriage holds sorrow as well as joy and is a representation of the commitment to stand by one another even in hard times I told him about the destruction of the Temple. (I did not give him the cynical reason that I have heard, namely, "This is the last time that the chosson gets to put his foot down!"?) I had no idea why the mothers of the chosson and kallah break a plate as part of making tenaim. A goggle search yields https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/tenaim-the-conditions-of-marriage/ An Old Ceremony From the 12th to the early 19th century, tenaim announced that two families had come to terms on a match between their children. The document setting out their agreement, also called tenaim, would include the dowry and other financial arrangements, the date and time of the huppah [the actual wedding ceremony], and a knas, or penalty, if either party backed out of the deal. After the document was signed and read aloud by an esteemed guest, a piece of crockery was smashed. The origins of this practice are not clear; the most common interpretation is that a shattered dish recalls the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and it is taken to demonstrate that a broken engagement cannot be mended. The broken dish also anticipates the shattered glass that ends the wedding ceremony. In some communities it was customary for all the guests to bring some old piece of crockery to smash on the floor. There is also a tradition that the mothers-in-law-to-be break the plate?a symbolic rending of mother-child ties and an acknowledgment that soon their children will be feeding each other. After the plate breaking, the party began. Does anyone have any more insight into the reason for breaking a plate? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Jan 3 15:49:09 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:49:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0664acd2-f84a-e6f5-b3bb-9355bb8c7e6d@sero.name> On 3/1/21 8:32 am, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me?to that > chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Yes, it is definitely a maamar chazal, found in several places, e.g. Yevamos 34a, Brereshis Raba 45, Yalkut Shimoni Bereshis 16:4. Exceptions include Hagar, Lot's daughters, Tamar, *perhaps* Leah, -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 3 10:45:10 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:45:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? ----------------------------------------------------- ??"? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? (??) ?????? ???' - ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??????: Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Sun Jan 3 22:46:33 2021 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 01:46:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish impact Message-ID: Pirkei Avot Ch. 5 lists several worldwide calamities that God causes or allows to occur in response to Jewish actions or inactions, including ?dever? (plague/pestilence). It is possible that Avot only refers to Israel, not the world, despite the language, ?comes to the world.? Question - is there any source for this ethic being limited to those sins and calamities listed there, or the contrary, for the ethic being extended to sins or calamities not listed there? From sholom at aishdas.org Mon Jan 4 16:27:11 2021 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 19:27:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RAM wrote: > This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the > first > pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, > and > in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In > my > opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to > explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that > a > translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. I don't understand the stira. As I learned it: Onkelos was explaining based on a Torah-mi-Sinai *understanding*. > So I decided to > post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear > in > Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were > probably > his own. I was unaware that folks thought otherwise! > I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It > turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer > Bereshis > (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* > translates > it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". I have a Sefer on Onkelos (Drazin and Wagner) which explains that in Berehis he renders Ivri literally, but when the family grew into a nation (in Shemos) he used the nation's name known among his contemporaries. The authors say that it's Onkelos' tendency to update the names of nations and places as they were contemporaneously known. FWIW, -- Sholom From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 4 22:28:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 06:28:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 5 03:43:38 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 11:43:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" Message-ID: I have received two interesting responses to my grandson Yisrael Meir"s question. Ruth Stern wrote "To cite Rav Schwab. A broken glass can be re-blown and then repaired. China, once broken, can?t be repaired. The glass is broken to remember the Bais Hamikdash which will be restored. The broken plate represents the fact that the agreement, Tenaim, cannot be canceled without a get." Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky (who seems to have written an article about almost everything) wrote https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-law/whats-the-truth-about-breaking-a-glass-at-a-wedding/ may have some information you are looking for. This is a comprehensive article about this topic and is well worth reading. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 04:31:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 07:31:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: . (Many thanks to R' Joel Rich and R' Moshe Gluck for sending me valuable sources on this topic.) Yevamos 34a (near the bottom) states that "ain isha mis'aberes b'biah rishona - a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations." On 35b, the Gemara challenges this idea, pointing out that in Bereshis 38, Tamar got pregnant from first relations, which were with Yehuda. The answer is that Tamar had damaged her besulim beforehand, so that she would be able to conceive from Yehuda. (The Gemara adds that although Er and Onan had relations with Tamar, they deliberately did it in such a way that her besulim was not damaged.) On Bereshis 19:36, Rashi gives a similar answer regarding Lot's daughters. Rashi accepts the principle that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," and so he says that they did something which enabled them to conceive. (Rashi's wording is different from that in Yevamos, so it's not clear to me whether he's describing the same procedure. And for the purposes of this thread, the exact procedure doesn;t really matter anyway.) I would like to ask about another case where a woman seems to have conceived from her first relations, and that woman is Leah Imenu. According to Rashi on Bereshis 49:3, Reuven was conceived from Yaakov Avinu's very first drop of semen. How can this be? Did Leah have relations with someone else prior to marrying Yaakov? Did Yaakov have prior relations with Leah, rendering her non-besulah, without emitting? Those ideas are *not* very appealing. The alternative would be to suggest that she did something medically that enabled her to conceive Reuven, but whereas Tamar and Bnos Lot had strong incentives to get pregnant immediately, I don't know what Leah's motivation might have been. Perhaps she was afraid that Yaakov would divorce her when Rachel became available, so she tried to lock him in by getting pregnant? Before clicking "send", I searched for an answer yet again, and this time I found it. The Ohr Hachayim on this pasuk (Bereshis 49:3) is very long, and near the very end (paragraph beginning "Gam ramaz") he quotes Rashi and writes: "From this you learn that [Yaakov] did not have relations with [her] besulim, rather he removed [her] besulim with a finger, so that he would not waste that drop. So you have learned that even during the act, physical desire did not overpower him, and his act was a totally holy thing." Alternatively, https://mg.alhatorah.org/Parshan/Rid/Bereshit/49.1#m7e0n6 gives the perush of Rav Yeshaya of Trani (Ri"d) on this pasuk, who answers that according to the Yerushalmi, *all* of the Imahos damaged their besulim. He doesn't states where this Yerushalmi can be found, nor does he explain *why* the Imahos would do that, but I suppose it's reasonable to presume that their logic was the same as the Ohr Hachayim has assigned to Yaakov - to prevent wasted seed. Conclusion: I do not know where Chazal got this idea that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," nor have I seen any proof or evidence for it. We do have three stories in the Torah - Lot's daughters, Tamar, and Leah - which *seem* to disprove it, but all three can be understood in a way that does *not* disprove it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Tue Jan 5 07:35:45 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:35:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E.7A.23873.98784FF5@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 08:36 AM 1/5/2021, Joel Rich wrote: >Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom This gemara does not speak about the Chosson breaking a glass under the chuppah. It talks about breaking an expensive vessel to decrease the levity of those at the chasanah. Once the glass (that is not expensive) is broken by the chosson, all sorts of "joy" breaks out to the extent that some rabbonim have called for eliminating this practice. See Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky's article that I posted a link to. YL From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 6 05:19:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:19:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Kibud Av v'Aim Pointers Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin KIBUD AV V?AIM POINTERS A. Unless a parent is knowingly mochel, it is forbidden to refer to your father or mother by their first name (even when requested for identification purposes) without a title of honor preceding the first name, whether or not they are present and whether or not they are alive. When being called to the Torah, one must refer to his father as Reb or Avi Mori. Whenever referring to one?s mother, one can use the title HaIsha or Moras (Yoreh Deah 240:2) B. When honoring parents, very special care and concern must be taken to do it b?sever ponim yofos?pleasantly (Yorah Deah 240:4). The Sefer Chareidim (Mitzvos Asei of the Heart 1:35) and Rav Chaim Shmulevitz (Sichos Mussar 5731:22) both explain that in order to properly perform the mitzvah, one must mentally gain a true appreciation and honor of their parents and literally view them as royalty. Indeed, the Chayei Adom (67:3) known for his succinctness in recording Halacha, writes that the ?Ikar Kibud??the most important [aspect of] Kibud is that ?He should view his parents as GREAT personages and important dignitaries of the land YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 5 15:51:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:51:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210105235158.GA31982@aishdas.org> I was under the impression that Unqelus was credited with recreating through ruach haqodesh the Aramaic translation of the Torah that Ezra had offered. "Shakechum vechazar veyasdum". See Megillah 3a https://www.sefaria.org/Megillah.3a.7-8 I said "Ezra offered because I presumed that the version the gemara refers to from Nechemiah was the same as in Sanhedrin 21b (and the Y-mi Megillah 10a). That the Torah was given originally in Kesav Ivri and Lashon haQodesh, and given again in the days of Ezra in Kesav Ashuris and Lashon Arami. And the Jews selected Ashuris and LhQ. So that Unqelus was chazar veyasad a veritable second giving of the Torah. Which explains why the Tur holds that Shenayim Miqra veEchad Targum means specifically Targum Unqelus. (Not the only shitah, but it does explain the shitah.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From simon.montagu at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 12:09:34 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 22:09:34 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 8:41 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > . > About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring > how authoritative the targumim are. > Since then I've gone into the topic a bit more. Recommended reading: Menahem Kasher "Targum Misinai" in vol. 17 of Tora Shelema (on HebrewBooks starting at https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=51490&st=&pgnum=325) Refael Posen "Targum Misinai" in Sidra 15 ( https://forum.otzar.org/download/file.php?id=32781) and, lehavdil, my own "'Targum Onkelos is from Sinai': Origins and Interpretations of a Tradition', https://www.academia.edu/44849107/_Targum_Onkelos_is_from_Sinai_Origins_and_Interpretations_of_a_Tradition -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mendel at case.edu Wed Jan 6 07:55:50 2021 From: mendel at case.edu (Mendel Singer) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:55:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47b4bce5-c1a8-f300-1f79-5fb268e8cbc0@case.edu> My answer: So when one of the couple drops and breaks a glass or a china plate they can associate it with happy memories and not fight! (Sure, right). ? mendel From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 7 15:57:06 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> On 7/1/21 6:10 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Seforno on Shenmos 4:11: > "Mi sam peh le'adam -- Who gave man a mouth?": > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > > Notice "nasan" is lashon avar, and "sam" -- to give, and what was given > was the natural preconditions that make teva ha'adam, things like a > mouth that speaks. > > It is an interesting circumlocution by the Seforno that seems to say > that a person's biology wasn't created directly, but via processes > Hashem put into place. I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk. The human nature is to have all the necessary natural equipment, physical and neurological, for talking. About sam (past) vs yasim (future), see Malbim. Moshe's hava amina was that a person by default has no power of speech, and Hashem has to put in each person such a power. Therefore since he wasn't given this power it follows that his shlichus in the world doesn't need it. Therefore jobs that do need it, such as leading the people, aren't for him. Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an individual decision by Hashem. But as people are born, "yasum ilem", Hashem makes some of them dumb. It's dumbness that's unnatural, and therefore the result of an individual decision. So Moshe's dumbness, rather than indicating that his shlichus simply doesn't involve speech, actually indicates that his shlichus *does* include dumbness. It's precisely because he is well-known to be dumb that his eloquence on this occasion will be regarded as a miracle and will make people listen to him. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 8 12:57:43 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:57:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created > the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. > Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man > at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi > sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an > individual decision by Hashem.... Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as the thing exists. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sat Jan 9 20:50:34 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 23:50:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <70511e8b-b7ac-5261-ca01-28b581e27dfa@sero.name> On 8/1/21 3:57 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > >> I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created >> the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. > > He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for > humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce > "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. Because he's talking about human nature, not about individual humans. He didn't give humans a "power of speech", He made human nature such that humans can naturally speak. >> Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man >> at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi >> sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an >> individual decision by Hashem.... > > Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad > background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros > implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is > done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as > the thing exists. First of all, the Malbim was not a chassid, so he's not necessarily consistent with the Baal Shem Tov's ideas. And in fact he does not seem to subscribe to the Baal Shem Tov's shita in Hashgacha Pratis. He often writes that the punishment for not doing mitzvos is that Hashgacha Pratis is withdrawn and one is left to the mercy of the random forces of nature. But in this instance there's no contradiction. He's referring to when the decision was/is made that a person should be speaking or dumb. Hashem tells Moshe that He long ago made the decision that human nature would be to be able to speak, so the fact that an individual can speak doesn't mean anything. It's the default human condition. But "yasum ilem", as He creates each individual, He makes certain individuals deviate from the norm and be dumb, and that is always a deliberate decision regarding that individual, and therefore must be meaningful. The fact that each person, whether speaking or dumb, is being constantly created isn't relevant to this point. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 06:08:05 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 14:08:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? A. A general principal in halacha is ?ain bishul achar bishul? (a cooked food cannot be recooked) and it is permissible to reheat cooked food on Shabbos. Nonetheless, there are situations where this does not apply: * Food may not be put on a stove top or in an oven on Shabbos, even if fully cooked, either because it has the appearance of cooking or because one might adjust the flame. This is known as chazara (returning). * According to most opinions, ain bishul achar bishul applies only to solid food and not to liquids. * To qualify for ain bishul achar bishul, the food must be fully cooked. * According to some (Shulchan Aruch OC 318:5), ain bishul achar bishul does not apply to cooking (with liquid) a food that was previously baked or roasted (without liquid) or vice versa. This is because baking and cooking are different modes and doing one after the other may constitute bishul. As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. The Rema rules that one may not even put bread into a kli sheini, a second vessel. (Liquid that was heated on a fire is known as a kli rishon. If that liquid was transferred to another vessel it is referred to as a kli sheini- a second vessel.) However, the Mishnah Berurah (318:47) writes that one may add bread to a kli shelishi (liquid transferred to a third vessel) because the temperature is diminished. Moreover, the Mishnah Berurah (318:45) writes that if a ladle was used, the ladle may be viewed as the kli sheini, and the bowl is treated as a kli shelishi. As such, bread or matzah meal may be added to soup that was placed in a bowl with a ladle. It should be noted that in general it is questionable if raw food may be added to a kli shelishi on Shabbos. Nonetheless, bread may be placed in a kli shelishi because there is a confluence of two uncertainties: a) does cooking occur in a kli shelishi and b) does ain bishul achar bishul apply to a baked food added to a kli rishon? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Jan 11 10:34:15 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 13:34:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <681a1f57-f0e6-eb30-1316-35145df8d4ad@sero.name> However bagels would be OK, since they have already been boiled. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 09:54:54 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 17:54:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning Message-ID: Secular Studies and Torah Learning The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. ?When I was in the illustrious city of Vilna in the presence of the Rav, the light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, the light of the eyes of the exile, the renowned pious one (may Hashem protect and save him) Rav Eliyahu, in the month of Teves 5538 [January 1778], I heard from his holy mouth that according to what a person is lacking in knowledge of the ?other wisdoms,? correspondingly he will be lacking one hundred portions in the wisdom of the Torah, because the Torah and the ?other wisdoms? are inextricably linked together ?? (From the Introduction to the Hebrew translation of Euclid?s book on geometry, Sefer Uklidos [The Hague, 1780] by R. Barukh Schick of Shklov, one of the main talmidim of the Vilna Gaon.) R. Yhonason Eybeschutz in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi in Torah and Science pages 24-25) writes: "For all the sciences are 'condiments' and are necessary for our Torah, such as the science of mathematics, which is the science of measurements and includes the science of numbers, geometry, and algebra and is very essential for the measurements required in connection with the Eglah Arufah and the cities of the Levites and the cities of refuge as well as the Sabbath boundaries of our cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics] is necessary for the judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are used honestly or fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary for the Sanhedrin to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests; furthermore, the need for this science is great in connection with examining witnesses, who claim they stood at a distance and saw the scene, to determine whether the arc of vision extends so far straight or bent. The science of astronomy is a science of the Jews, the secret of leap years to know the paths of the constellations and to sanctify the new moon. The science of nature which includes the science of medicine in general is very important for distinguishing the blood of the Niddah whether it is pure or impure ? and how much more is it necessary when one strikes his fellow man in order to ascertain whether the blow was mortal, and if he died whether he died because of it, and for what disease one may desecrate the Sabbath. Regarding botany, how great is the power of the Sages in connection with kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too we may mention zoology, to know which animals may be hybridized; and chemistry, which is important in connection with the metals used in the tabernacle, etc." In light of the above, I simply do not understand why some yeshiva boys do not receive an adequate secular education and why secular subjects are disparaged in some circles. On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply.? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 11 22:50:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 06:50:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply. ======================================= 1. Difficult to convince someone whose whole education has been devoted to a different approach AND has been told it is the only acceptable approach. 2. I?ve said , I agree it?s all derivable from Torah but isn?t it a more efficient use of time to get it direct rather than derive it? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 12 05:11:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:11:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? A. A hot pot of soup is a kli rishon (primary source of heat) and one may not add cold water to the pot, since this will cook the water. However, a bowl of soup is a kli sheini (secondary source of heat), and water does not cook in a kli sheini. It would therefore seem that one may add cold water to a bowl of soup. Still, the halacha is not so obvious, since there are also pieces of meat or vegetables in the soup. A solid food transferred to a secondary vessel retains the status of a kli rishon according to some poskim. Perhaps we need be concerned that the hot pieces of vegetable or meat may cook the water. The Pri Megadim (253: Aishel Avrohom 32) writes that it is possible that all agree that hot pieces of meat that are submerged in liquid in a kli sheini have the status of a kli sheini and cannot cook. This appears to be the consensus of many poskim (see Pischei Teshuva YD 94:7 and Kitzos Hashulchan 124:39). Therefore, one may add cold water to soup. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 12 14:05:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210112220532.GA5585@aishdas.org> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 02:08:05PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup >> on Shabbos? ... >> As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup >> that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the >> temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes >> is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. >From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at : Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi (MB 318:45)[10]. Before I share footnote #10, which is long and may lose people's attention, let me cite AhS 318:25 who acknowledges that some are machmir WRT bread, but doesn't consider it iqar. And the Rama, who holds like the Raaviyah, that there is no bishul achar afiyah. So, what the OU says "should not" should really be a CYLOR. Now, back to the PH: [10] Those who do not allow dipping bread into hot soup in a kli sheni follow two stringencies: a) They prohibit cooking after baking; b) they defer to the opinion that many foods are considered kalei ha-bishul and thus can become cooked in a kli sheni. Nevertheless, when serving soup using a ladle, according to Maharil, Pri Hadash, and others, the ladle is considered a kli sheni. Accordingly, the soup bowl is a kli shlishi, and in a kli shlishi there is definitely no prohibition. While Taz and Shakh maintain that the ladle is a kli rishon and MB 318:87 follows this approach, nevertheless this is a case of a twofold doubt, and thus one may be lenient (MB 318:45) as long as the ladle does not remain in the kli rishon long enough to reach the same heat as the vessel itself. Soup nuts may be added to a kli sheni even le-khathila, since they are deep fried and are considered cooked rather than baked (SSK 1:70). Furthermore, this further cooking is not desired, as people do not want the soup nuts to get soggy. According to those who maintain that ein bishul ahar afiya (there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been baked), one may definitely toast challah. Additionally, MA 318:17, Mahatzit Ha-shekel, and Hayei Adam (Zikhru Torat Moshe 24:7) would permit this even for those who are stringent about bishul ahar afiya, since they maintain that baking and roasting are the same. In contrast, some are stringent because they maintain that roasting is different from baking (Pri Megadim, Mishbetzot Zahav 318:7; SSK 1:71; Kaf Ha-hayim 318:78; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:6; Menuhat Ahava vol. 2 ch. 10 n. 154). There is even one opinion that expresses concern that this is considered Makeh Be-fatish (applying the finishing touch) (Rav Pe'alim, OH 2:52). In practice, the lenient position (that roasting and baking are the same) seems the more reasonable one, since if one continues to bake food it dries out, and essentially becomes toasted. Nevertheless, one who chooses to be stringent is commendable. This is the case when it comes to completely toasting the bread, but even those who are stringent would allow warming up bread - even to the point that the surface crisps - because doing so does not make a significant change to the baked state. Rav Pe'alim indeed states this in OH 2:52, and Nishmat Shabbat 318:26 states similarly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The greatest discovery of all time is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp a person can change their future Author: Widen Your Tent by merely changing their attitude. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Oprah Winfrey From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 04:55:09 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 07:55:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely does not cook." When I make a coffee on Shabbos morning, I take the water from the urn and put it into a cup. I then pour this water into another cup which is then a kli shlishi. However, the temperature of the water in the second cup is still very hot. Indeed, if I poured it onto my hand I would get scalded. How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup, the kli shlishi? Not very much. The temperature of the water in the second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not cook? At 05:05 PM 1/12/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at >: > > Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent > in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must > make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a > kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in > a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be > considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi > (MB 318:45)[10]. > From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 13 08:03:48 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 11:03:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On 13/1/21 7:55 am, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > > How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water > in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup,? the > kli shlishi? Not very much.? The temperature of the water in the > second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not > cook? Because that's what the halacha says. E.g. see SA Harav 551:34 who explicitly says that the heat of a keli shlishi or revi'i, even if it is yad soledes bo, has no power to cook, although according to some it still has the power to cause absorption and expulsion. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 11:22:20 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:22:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cooking in a Kli Shlishi Message-ID: <03.F5.14965.3C84FFF5@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://ph.yhb.org.il/en/01-10-07/ There is a third type of vessel known as a kli shlishi. If one pours hot water or hot food from the pot in which it was cooked into another vessel, and from that vessel into a third one, that final container is a kli shlishi. The poskim agree that a kli shlishi is unable to cook anything.[6] [6]. In truth, some Acharonim were inclined to be stringent and avoid putting anything raw and easily cooked into a kli shlishi that is yad soledet bo. Thus states Shevitat Ha-Shabbat, Mevashel 23, based on Yere?im. This is also the position of azon Ish regarding kalei ha-bishul ( Hazon Ish, O 52:19). He maintains that as long as the water is hot, no matter how many times removed the vessel is from the original kli rishon, kalei ha-bishul become cooked. AHS 318:28 states this specifically with regard to tea. According to Chayei Adam 20:4, any vessel whose contents are so hot that they would burn someone is capable of cooking. However, according to most poskim, the principle that Bishul does not apply in a kli shlishi is absolute, and any kind of raw food may be introduced into a kli shlishi. MB 318:47 records this based on Pri Megadim. The accepted explanation is that this was the Sages? assumption ? cooking is inconceivable in a kli shlishi. Further, it seems to me that cooking in a vessel that people do not generally use for cooking would not be prohibited by Torah law, since the Torah prohibition applies only to cooking in the usual manner. Since one normally does not cook in a kli sheni, there is no Torah prohibition of putting raw food into a kli sheni. However, foods that cook easily are often cooked in a kli sheni or even by irui from a kli sheni. Therefore, if one places these foods in a kli sheni or pours water on them from a kli sheni, he transgresses a Torah prohibition. However, not even kalei ha-bishul are generally cooked in a kli shlishi, so there is never a Torah prohibition involved. And since in the vast majority of cases one cannot cook in a kli shlishi, the Sages did not prohibit cooking in one in any case.MA, MB 318:34, and Kaf Ha- chayim ?70 state that the halakha follows the first opinion presented in Tosafot, Shabbat 39a. This opinion states that even though a kli sheni does not cook, one may not place raw food into such a vessel because it resembles cooking. One may, however, add spices, since that does not resemble cooking. This is also the position of Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:5. In contrast, R. Ovadia Yosef, basing himself on a number of Rishonim and Acharonim, writes that the halakha follows the second opinion in Tosafot, according to which there is never a concern of resembling cooking in a kli sheni (Ye aveh Da?at 6:22). Some maintain that since we do not know what foods are considered kalei ha-bishul, we must be stringent and refrain from putting any foods into a kli sheni except those that we know are not kalei bishul (Yere?im; Smag). Others maintain that only specific foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul are a concern (Ran; Tur). Rema 318:5 states that the custom is to be stringent, as do MA 318:18; SAH 318:12; ayei Adam 20:4; MB 318:42; SSK 1:59. SA 318:5 cites both opinions and seems inclined to be lenient. This was the inclination of a number of poskim ? that one need be stringent only with foods that are known to cook easily ( azon Ish, O 52:18; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:3). Yalkut Yosef 318:47 also records this as the position of Rambam and Maharam ibn abib. To simplify the matter, I wrote to be consistently stringent in the case of a kli sheni, and consistently lenient in the case of a kli shlishi. Even though it is agreed that one may not pour from a kli sheni onto kalei ha-bishul, nevertheless we have seen that according to most poskim, most foods are not kalei ha-bishul. Moreover, even those who are stringent consider the prohibition rabbinic, since one does not intend to cook. Additionally, pouring will only cook the outer layer of the food, which is less than the amount required to transgress a Torah prohibition, and according to Rashbam this is not considered cooking at all. Therefore, one should only be stringent and refrain from pouring from a kli sheni in the case of foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 13 11:42:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:42:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210113194249.GA11959@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 07:55:09AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely > does not cook." Me neither. But the melakhah is bishul, not cooking. For example, you have two eggs at the same temperature, one heated by a frying pan that used to be on the fire (toledos ha'ur), the other cooking in the sun (toledos hachamah). One is bishul, the other isn't. Or the hot springs of Teveriah. Chazal knew what they were and how hot the waters are. What they didn't know is whether they were warm from the volcanic processes in the ground of from the sun's heat. And despite the water being in a known resulting state, using the hot water to cook something else may or may not be bishul depending on what heated it. In general, our culture is too fixated on science to "get" halakhah. I've been saying this for a while on my own say-so, but R' David Lapin's "Matmanim" podcast had a few shiurim on this topic as well. (RDL is not to be confused with his older brother, R Daniel. R David studied under his uncle, R Elya Lopian, has semicha from R Unterman, founded the South African Instute of Business Ethics, and came in second in the hunt for a successor for the CR of the UK when R/D/L Sacks z"l retired. Matmanim is a daily 15 min shiur (6:45-7am) in the Raanana Kollel. He finds a hashkafic point, "buried trasure", in the day's daf. https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/1528778.rss Back to the point... ) I phrased it in terms of halakhah being about observed and observable reality. As it's our first-hand experiences -- those we had and those we can be held accountable for if we don't bother checking -- that impact us on the gut level, the deeper places of our psyche where decisions are made. RDLapin talks about Torah dealing with relationships, how we relate to an item, rather than facts about the item. When I emailed RDL about it, neither of us were sure whether we are saying the same thing or if there are subtle differences. Either way, we live in an era where progress is so tied to science and technology, that when we hear a word like "bishul" we look for a scientific definition of cooking. Rather, as Rashi says about cooking toledos hachamah, derekh bishul is part of the definition of the melakhah. But it would never be part of a scientific definition of cooking. To support that broad point with another example -- tal and mayim are two diferent of the 7 liquids. Both are H2O, though. Our leap to a physics or chemistry explanation when the relevant sciences may be more psychology and sociology gets in the way of understanding halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If a person does not recognize one's own worth, http://www.aishdas.org/asp how can he appreciate the worth of another? Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 08:07:27 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 11:07:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos Message-ID: In response to my email about making coffee on Shabbos I received the following query: I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? From https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/08/making-tea-and-coffee-on-shabbos/ Instant tea: Some authorities permit using pre-cooked tea leaves. For example, it would be permitted to pour hot water onto the tea leaves before Shabbos and then to pour more hot water onto the same dry leaves to make tea on Shabbos. Some halachic authorities [14] apply the rule that there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been cooked completely. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [15] accepts this as well, but adds that when one pre-cooks the tea before Shabbos, he must leave the hot water on the tea for a while to make sure that it is fully cooked. However, some halachic authorities [16] forbid this practice because the tea leaves are used purely to extract their taste. Therefore, as long as the tea leaves continue to emit taste, they are not considered already cooked. Keli Sheini and Keli Shelishi As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. However, if something is considered mi???kalei ha???bishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein [23] rule that we do not know what foods are mi???kalei ha???bishul, and therefore we need to be concerned that all foods fall into this category unless explicitly excluded in the Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli sheini, because they might be mi???kalei ha???bishul. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [25] is certain that tea is mi???kalei ha???bishul. However, the Chazon Ish [26] argues that one need not be concerned that a given food is mi???kalei ha???bishul unless an explicit source says that it is. [27] R. Hershel Schachter writes that R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik made tea in a keli sheini because he did not consider tea leaves to be mi???kalei ha???bishul, [28] and R. Schachter himself rules this way as well. [29] A keli shelishi (a tertiary vessel, from which something was poured from a keli sheini) may provide a solution to those who are concerned that tea may cook in a keli sheini. Talmudic sources do not mention such a concept, nor do Rishonim (early authorities) distinguish between keli sheini and keli shelishi. To the best of my knowledge, the only Rishon who talks about a keli shelishi is R. Eliezer of Metz, [30] who explicitly says that a keli shelishi is the same as a keli sheini. Nevertheless, many Achronim (later authorities) [31] rule that a keli shelishi does not cook even food that is mi???kalei ha???bishul, or that one need not be concerned that something is mi???kalei ha???bishul when using a keli shelishi (but they hold that in a keli sheini one should be concerned). However, many halachic authorities [32] disagree. The Chazon Ish [33] argues that there is no basis to distinguish in theory between a keli sheini and a keli shelishi. However, he continues, there may be a practical distinction: the Chayei Adam [34] rules that a keli sheini that is extremely hot (yad nichveis bo) will cook. Based on this, the Chazon Ish says that we use a keli shelishi because by the time the item has been transferred twice, it is probably no longer as hot, and therefore one does not need to be concerned for this opinion of the Chayei Adam. [35] Making Tea Using Essence Mishna Berura [36] states that the best way to make tea on Shabbos is to make essence, meaning a very strong tea, before Shabbos. When one wants to drink tea on Shabbos, he can put hot water in the cup, and then add the cold essence. This solution works according to all views because everyone agrees that water is not mi???kalei ha???bishul and therefore will not cook in a keli sheini. ______________ Let me add the caveat that the Jewish Press often added when it came to matters of Halacha. "One should consult one's local competent Orthodox rabbi." YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 16 16:54:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:54:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210117005419.GD21719@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 11:07:27AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli > Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? > > From > ... > As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary > vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does > not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] > Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was > never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. > However, if something is considered mikalei > habishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in > a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, > [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein > [23] rule that we do not know what foods are > mikalei habishul, and therefore we need to > be concerned that all foods fall into this > category unless explicitly excluded in the > Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is > forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli > sheini, because they might be mikalei > habishul... This interestingly touches on the topic I raised in my earlier email about the difference between the halachic concept of "bishul", which is defined by a set of experiences, and the scientific concept of cooking. Tea leaves don't cook easily. I spoke to importers. Making tea doesn't cook the tea leaves. Never mind "easily cooked", they don't cook at all. Which is why one can cold brew tea or make sun tea, without the water being warm, nowhere near yad soledes bo. One could make an argument that tea leaves are tavlin, flavorings that don't cook. After all, when it comes to halakhos like drinking before davening, tea is just flavored water. And from a scientific perspective, what is happening isn't cooking. BUT, is it bishul? Without a rigorous definition of bishul, we cannot rule out the idea that it includes the speed-up of making tea from hours to minutes that is caused by the water's heat. And for all I know, that as-yet-unspecified defining feature of bishul happens easily with tea leaves. (Or at least the crumbs of those leaves found in tea bags.) So, even while the tea experts say that making tea doesn't cook the leaves, that is not enough to force the conclusion that they aren't qalei bishul! Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Jan 15 06:04:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:04:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one make ices on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one make ices on Shabbos? A. The Dovev Meisharim (siman 55) writes that changing water into ice is forbidden on Shabbos. Moreover, he writes that even if the water was placed in the freezer before Shabbos, if it freezes on Shabbos, the ice would still be forbidden because of muktza. The change in form from liquid to solid turns it into a new entity which is muktza. The Chelkas Yaakov (OC 128) and many other poskim disagree on both these points. Not only is ice that forms on Shabbos not muktza, but it is not clear that there is any prohibition to make ice. This is because one does not actually make ice. All one does is place water in a cold environment and the ice forms on its own. Although one may not chop ice with your hands to actively melt it into water, one may place ice in a bowl and let it melt on its own into water. The same should be allowed in reverse. Water should be allowed to freeze into ice on its own. The Chelkas Yaakov is unsure of this last point, and therefore recommends not making ice on Shabbos unless there is a pressing need. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 26 06:05:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 14:05:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? A. In a previous Halacha Yomis we discussed the prohibition of molid rei?ach (causing the absorption of a fragrance or scent). Our current question revolves around whether this restriction applies to the human body as well. This is a matter of dispute among poskim. The Shevet Halevi (1:137) was asked whether using mouthwash on Shabbos is prohibited because of molid rei?ach. He notes that the Taz (511:8), Magen Avrohom (511:11) and Shulchan Aruch Harav (511:7) restrict washing hands with scented water on Shabbos because of molid rei?ach. Obviously, these poskim hold that molid rei?ach applies to the human body as well. However, the Mishnah Berurah (128:23) writes that many Acharonim did not accept this stringency of not using scented water on Shabbos. For example, the Chacham Tzvi (92) proves that molid rei?ach does not apply to the body, since Shulchan Aruch (OC 322:5) permits rubbing scented sticks between one's fingers to release the scent even though the fingers will absorb the fragrance. Accordingly, the Mishnah Berurah makes the following distinction. Adding scented oil to water on Shabbos is prohibited but washing one's hands with previously scented water is acceptable. Some poskim question whether the leniency of the Mishnah Berurah regarding handwashing with scented water applies to other parts of the body. Some suggest that there is room for greater leniency with respect to hands because the scent dissipates quickly (see Piskei Teshuvos 322:7). However, the Shevet Haleivi equates the entire body to hands and allows the use of mouthwash on Shabbos. Similarly, Shmiras Shabbos K?hilchaso (14:36) allows applying perfume on Shabbos (based on the Mishna Berurah), though he cautions against spraying it on clothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 25 14:14:48 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:14:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government Message-ID: Please see pages 6 - 8 of Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" sIIRC Rav Yisroel Salanter would quietly say the prayer for the government if he wad davening in a place that did not say it. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 24 06:48:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 14:48:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Coming of Moshiach Message-ID: I have posted Rav Shimon Schwab's essay on this topic at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/coming_of_moshiach.pdf This essay was written in 1974. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:42:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:42:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: Why didn't Yeshoshua ask HKB"H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Jan 26 16:03:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:03:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70ec8204-43df-9e0b-41fd-6f365220a817@sero.name> > *Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" On page 5 of this pamphlet the author writes that the hooligans of Berachos 10a who harassed R Meir were not Jewish. He gives no source for this, and I wonder where he gets it. I have always assumed they were Jewish and have never seen anything saying otherwise. If they weren't I would have expected the gemara to say so. As far as the prayer for the king is concerned, historically the fact is that in the Russian empire it was not said except in the large shuls where the Czar was likely to know what was happening. But I understand that in the Austro-Hungarian empire it was said everywhere, because the Jews actually liked the Kaiser, and vice versa. The author claims that "The tefillah does not mention a single king but rather a kingdom, since this applies even when there is a democracy". This is just not the case. Every single siddur I have seen with Hanosen Teshua, except in the USA, uses the sovereign's name. He cites Tiferes Yisrael as his source, but the Tiferes Yisrael does not refer at all to the tefillah that is said, but only to the mishnah that recommends the practice. And he does not mention democracy, even though the USA and France existed in his day; what he says is that the mishnah includes countries that are ruled by a group of leaders. In my opinion this nusach is completely inappropriate to the USA, and those shuls here who wish to pray for the country or for the government should use a different nusach written especially for that country. I have seen such nuscha'os printed in various places, that are not simply rewrites of Hanosen Teshua. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:43:41 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:43:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction Message-ID: Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a brother? What was the value at that point? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 06:27:08 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 16:27:08 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a Message-ID: There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is permitted even though it cooks. 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Many of the Rishonim state explicitly that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a metzius. The Rashba there in Shabbos 34b, the Yeraim quoted by many other rishonim and others. Tosafos there also seems to say this because they explain the difference between a kli rishon and a kli sheini based on metzius, that a kli rishon has hot walls while a kli sheini doesn't. The gemara about kalei habishul seems to support this position. The simple reading of the gemara (39a and other places) is that there are certain things that are easily cooked and you are chayav if you cook them in a kli sheini. If it was a din then how wcould you be chayav by kalei habishul? None of the Rishonim (that I saw) say explicitly that it is a din (however see Tosafos shabbos 42a where they discuss a hot bath and other Rishonim (Ramban, Ritva) which could be interpreted this way). However the Ohr Sameach (hilchos shabbos perek 9) goes with this idea explicitly, and explains it as follows. He says that the gemara states that cooking in halacha is defined as by fire or the result of a fire. He says that a kli sheini is so far removed from the fire that it can't be called toldos haeish and therefore is not considered cooking in halacha. This is similar to the din that cooking in the sun is not considered cooking. He explains that kalei habishul is a gezera because people do cook kalei habishul in a kli sheini therefore they prohibited it m'drabbanan. There are a number of practical differences in halacha regarding this question, I will mention 2 of them: 1. If the kli sheini is really hot. The Chayei Adam based on a Rambam in Maaser Sheni holds that if the kli sheini is boiling hot (if you touch it you will get burned) then the rule of kli sheini ayno mevashel doesn't apply. This is clearly going with 2, that it is a metzius, according to the Ohr Sameach it shouldn't matter. 2. Is there a kula of kli shlishi? The Mishna Berura quotes a Pri megadim who is meikel by a kli shlishi by kalei habishul, that you would be permitted to put them in a kli shlishi. The Chazon Ish and others disagree. they hold that there is no difference between a kli sheini and a kli shlishi based on Tosafos, both have cold walls and both have the same amount of heat. If you hold like 2 then the kula of kli shlishi makes no sense. However according to the Ohr Sameach that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a din and the humra by kalei habishul is only a din drabbanan, then it makes sense to say that the gezera was only made on a kli sheini and not on a kli shlishi. At first glance opinion 1 (din) seems much more logical then 2. It seems very difficult to say that the gemara is telling us a metzius without qualifying it. If the Chayei Adam is right how come the gemara didn't warn us about it. The Chayei Adam's scenario is not so uncommon and leads to an issur d'oraysa. The gemara's statement lends itself to be interpreted as a general principle in halacha not a metzius. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 27 06:54:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:54:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?_Tu=92bishvat_is_the_Rosh_Hashanah_=28n?= =?windows-1252?q?ew_year=29_for_trees=2E_What_does_this_mean=3F?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Thursday, January 28th, will be Tu?bishvat, (the fifteenth day of the month of Shvat). Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? A. There is a seven-year cycle of terumos and ma?aseros (various tithes) for produce that grows in the land of Israel. To determine which tithes must be separated, one must know in which year the produce grew. The calendar year for fruit begins on Tu?bishvat. If a fruit reached a certain stage of development called ?onas ha?maaser? before Tu?bishvat, this fruit belongs to last year?s crop and should be tithed accordingly. Fruit that reaches the stage of ?onas ha?maaser? only after Tu?bishvat, belongs to the new year and must be tithed accordingly. One exception to this rule is the esrog, which is tithed according to the year in which it is picked, regardless of when it reaches ?onas ha?maaser? (Shulchan Aruch YD 331:125-126). Tu?bishvat is relevant outside of Israel as well. Tu?bishvat plays a role in the counting of years as relates to the laws of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years). This will be discussed further in tomorrow?s Halacha Yomis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 16:07:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:07:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128000739.GE25301@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 04:27:08PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli > sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is > permitted even though it cooks. Brisk. > 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in > general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Telzh. Except that I would say, "it isn't mevasheil". You cannot assume bishul has the same limits as cooking. We are talking about a tradition in which a bat is a kind of owf. Let's look at ofos for a second, because I find it easier to illustrate my proposed general rule with a noun. We say that an "owf" is a "bird", but that's really only shorthand. One syllable is much easier to teach with than having to say and write "flying living thing". There is still an empirical fact being described. One needn't say that owf, e.g. in the laws of owfos tehoros, is just a category with no empirical basis. But the fact isn't the one we have an easy at-hand English word. Wrong culture. Similarly here, bishul needn't be some Brisker chalos sheim. But it could be a range of physical changes in a substance defined by the use of fire and not e.g. toledos hachamah. I mean, Chazal knew what changes chamei Teveriah were capable of, they just didn't know how the hot springs were hot. But they still made whether it is mevasheil depend on whether it was heated by the sun or by volcanic processes When you get to a keli sheini, you are at quite a remove from the fire, although the heat must be fire-derived heat. OTOH, when you are dealing with kalei bishul, you are closer to the idea of trigerring a physical change. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger What we do for ourselves dies with us. http://www.aishdas.org/asp What we do for others and the world, Author: Widen Your Tent remains and is immortal. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Albert Pine From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 11:26:42 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:26:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> I don't know each stage of Tu biShvat's evolution. Was it always a holiday? In the gemara, Tu biShvat is more like a shiur -- how do you know which fruit go to which terumos uma'aseros? But by the end of the geonim, tachanun was skipped on Tu biShvat. So, even if it wasn't always a holiday, it started turning into one pretty early. Well before the *publication* (so to speak) of the Zohar. So it's not of Qabbalistic roots. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From driceman at optimum.net Wed Jan 27 16:36:43 2021 From: driceman at optimum.net (David Riceman) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:36:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >> RMB: > > There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > >> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >> sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is >> permitted even though it cooks. > > Brisk. > >> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. > > Telzh. Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos). Many years ago one of my rebbeim suggested that microwaves and solar hot water heaters weren?t bishul d?orayysa because they were uncommon, but that their status might change as they became more common. David Riceman From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 10:18:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Shevat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128181856.GE7499@aishdas.org> I asked on Areivim about the origin of Tu biShvat as a yom tov even before getting to questions about the Tu biShvat Seder and how kosher is the Seifer Chemdas Yamim. Someone emailed me this nice summary in reply. I wanted to share with the chevrah. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5009491 Below is the article from after of a discussion of Tu biShvat in Chazal as a shiur for terumos uma'aseros until they run out of history and talk about contemporary custom. About Chemdas Yamim... it's enough that it is a machloqes acharonim whether the book (1) should be treated as Sabbatean, (2) is kosher because its acceptance by so many Mequbalim Qedoshim that is happens not to contain any of the author's Sabbatean heresy (R Chaim Palaggi, Turkey, 19th cent CE), or (2) is a holy book written by R Yisrael Yaaqov al-Gazi. The way academia is structured, particularly what it takes to get published and publish-or-perish there is a built in bias toward debunking things. Too much depends on coming up with novella and their Truthiness. I am therefore skeptical of an academic consensus that shows that the benighted masses outside their ivory towers are wrong. Could be good scholarship, but there are negi'os. So I wouldn't just assume their conclusions are authoritative. (Truthiness, coined by then comedy news editorialist Stephen Colbert, to describe the things we believe because they sound true because we would like them to be true.) There are numerous examples from Middle Eastern history and Biblical Archeology I can point to, where it seems clear that out of two equally plausible theories, the author was biased to pick the one that would dethrone Yeishu. (Like, did the Judean intelligensia captured with Yechaniah teach them about the idea of a messiah and messianic era, or did we get it from Zoroastrianism? Well, saying it's not in original Judaism devalues Oso haIsh, so...) Even when it comes to some Torah journals, I got tired of picking through the articles that seem so plausible until I realized I liked them because of that feeling superiori to the benighted masses or just some clever and very Truthy. Anyway, here's the relevant half of the Chabad.org post, back on topic about Tu biShvat. Tir'u baTov! -Micha Who "Invented" the Holiday on 15 Shevat? Yehuda Shurpin chabad.org ... Yet, neither the Mishnah nor the Talmud tell us about any special celebrations or commemorations associated with the day. Earliest Celebration One of the earliest sources for the 15th of Shevat being a celebratory day is a pair of ancient liturgical poems that were found in the Cairo genizah, a trove of old Torah texts, documents and manuscripts discovered in the 19th century. The poems, composed by Rabbi Yehuda Ben Hillel Halevi around the 10th century, were meant to be added to the prayer service of the day.[9] In a response to a community that wished to establish a fast day on the 15th Shevat, Rabbeinu Gershom (c. 960-1040) explained that just as one does not fast on the other days that are called "the beginning of the year" in the Mishnah, so too, one does not fast on the 15th of Shevat.[10] Additionally, we find in early sources that one doesn't recite penitential prayers on the 15th of Shevat, just as one doesn't recite them on other holidays.[11] Eating Fruits In addition to not fasting and not reciting any penitential prayers, there is also a custom to eat fruits on this day. The first to mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) in his work Tikun Yissachar. This custom was popularized by the Kabbalists and subsequently cited in many halachic works.[12] The somewhat controversial Kabbalistic work of unknown authorship Pri Eitz Hadar (first published in Venice in 1728) was also very influential in spreading the custom to eat fruits on this day. The work includes various texts that one would recite when eating the different fruits. However, the common custom is not to recite these texts when eating fruits on the 15th of Shevat... ... [9] Eretz Yisrael, vol. 4, p. 138. [10] See Responsa of Rabbi Meir of Rottenbug (Prague ed.) 5. [11] See, for example, Maharil, Chilukei Haftorot; Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 131:6. [12] See Magen Avraham, Orach Chaim 131:16; Hashlamah to Shulchan Aruch Harav, Orach Chaim 136:8; Mishnah Berurah 131:31. From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 28 05:44:31 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:44:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?How_does_Tu=92bishvat_impact_the_counti?= =?windows-1252?q?ng_of_years_of_orlah?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. How does Tu?bishvat impact the counting of years of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years)? A. The Torah states, ?When you enter the land and plant any tree for food, you shall regard its fruit as forbidden. Three years it shall be forbidden for you, not to be eaten.? (Vayikra 19:23) From here we learn that one may not eat or derive benefit from fruit that grew during the first three years of a tree?s existence. This fruit is called orlah. This prohibition applies both in the land of Israel as well as in the diaspora. In Israel, fruit that grows in the fourth year has a special kedusha (sanctity) known as ?neta revai?. When calculating a tree?s first three years of existence for orlah, the years need not be complete. Rather, if a new tree grew for a minimum of thirty days before Rosh Hashana, this is treated as the first year of the tree's existence. It is assumed that a tree does not begin to take root and grow until fourteen days have elapsed after planting. Therefore, if a tree is planted on or before the 15 day of Av, which is 44 days before Rosh Hashana, the tree is considered one year old on Rosh Hashana, and Rosh Hashanah marks the beginning of the tree?s second year of growth. If a tree is planted less than 44 days before Rosh Hashanah, one must wait until the following Rosh Hashanah (more than a year) to complete the first year of orlah. However, even after the third Rosh Hashanah marks the completion of three years, the fruit which blossoms in the fourth year before Tu?bishvat is treated as orlah as well. This is because this fruit was nourished from sap that the tree produced before Rosh Hashana. If fruit blossomed after Tu?bishvat of the fourth year, we assume that the fruit was nourished from the current year?s sap, and the fruit is not orlah. The Shach (YD 294:10) quotes the Rosh who notes that in our climate, trees don?t ordinarily blossom before Tu?bishvat, so one may assume that all fruit that is found on the tree in the fourth year is not orlah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 27 20:01:57 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> References: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> Message-ID: As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard date is required to separate them? I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th. Or is that actually the general case, and the exact date only matters in a freak occurrence? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 03:35:39 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 06:35:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> I have often wondered the same thing about so many leaders, both Jewish and not. The precedent set by appointing Yehoshua seems to be a no-brainer, in my view. I am so often disheartened when I see an organization fall apart and descend into total factionalism when its leader passes away. So much strife could be avoided simply by grooming a successor, teaching him the required skills, and making sure that he has the allegiance of the membership. Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. It almost seems like a dereliction of duty. I'd cite examples, but that would surely spur too many bickering side-comments. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 14:04:53 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:04:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128220453.GA13382@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 07:36:43PM -0500, David Riceman via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >>> sheini is not called cooking... >> Brisk. >>> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >>> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. >> Telzh. > Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook > (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos)... I would think that's a metzi'us question, but defining the issur in terms of derekh bishul rather than bishul. That certainly fits the gemara's language, except for the one-word name of the melakhah. In terms of Brisk vs Telzh.... It would still fit under Telzh, in that it's explaining halakhah in terms of realia. Brisk would stop all explanations at halachic categories. More like the "halakhah states ... is not called ..." of number 1. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Imagine waking up tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp with only the things Author: Widen Your Tent we thanked Hashem for today! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Jan 28 20:00:07 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 04:00:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. --------------------------------- Yes and one could posit a number of reasons-some cognitive and some not. That?s what I wonder about. Behavioral psychology offers some reasons for mere mortals but?. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 28 23:16:38 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 02:16:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/1/21 5:58 pm, Alexander Seinfeld via Avodah wrote: > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 > From: Zev Sero >> As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's >> climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard >> date is required to separate them? > >> I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in >> mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't >> matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... > > The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that > time and having a suffik about it's maaser. Yes, but esrogim are different because they stay on the tree all year, and are counted according to the year in which they are picked. That rules does not apply to any other fruit. [Email #2. -micha On 28/1/21 1:18 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah [forwaded from chabad.org]: > The first to > mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in > his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) > in his work Tikun Yissachar. See the Seforim blog post that RYL linked to, which cites earlier sources that Rabbi Shurpin's sources were unaware of. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From marty.bluke at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 02:04:51 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:04:51 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] R e: May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread Message-ID: Rav Meir Twersky in Beis Yitchak suggested this as pshat in tosafos. He suggests that when tosafos explains the difference between kli rishon and kli sheini as whether the walls are hot it is not based on metzius but rather whether it is normal to cook that way. It is normal to cook in a kli rishon because the walls are hot and therefore it is prohibited. It is not normal to cook in a kli sheini because the walls are cold and therefore permitted. Likewise, by kalei habishul since they cook easily people cook then in a kli sheini and therefore you are chayav. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 13:47:11 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:47:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha Message-ID: . Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the very first thing we say after benching. ???????? ????????? ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ??????????? ??? ????????. It is composed of two similar phrases, the first of which contains the preposition "el" and the second uses the preposition "al". And yet, despite this contrast, the great majority of English Tehilims and Haggadas translate both of them as "upon". The main exception is The Psalms, with the perush of Rav RSR Hirsch. He is emphatic that "el" must be translated as "toward" and not as ?upon?. He explains that the first half refers to the nations who have merely failed to recognize God, and we pray for His anger to go *toward* them, that they might come to know and understand. It is only in the second half, which refers to the evil kingdoms who have tried to destroy us, that we pray for God's anger to pour down *upon* them. Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name". To me, both can refer to people who are simply ignorant of Hashem, or perhaps both can refer to people who actively deny Hashem. But I don't see how one group is more or less evil than the other. Perhaps he gets it by contrasting "nations" and "kingdoms". If anyone can offer ideas, I'd appreciate it. In any case, it seems clear to me that the author of this Tehillim strove to distinguish between "el" and "al", and those who recite the Haggada in English might want to take note of this. Hat tip to ArtScroll's Interlinear Tehillim, from which I've been reciting Tehillim recently. True to the advertising, I have found it very helpful in understanding what I'm saying. It really does take no more than a glance to see what the more difficult words mean. A few days ago, I wasn't even paying much attention to the English - not on a conscious level at least! But my peripheral vision was surprised to see "el" being translated as "upon", and it jarred me into further research. I will also note that although the preposition "el" is best translated as "to" or "towards" in the vast majority of cases, there are indeed some exceptions, as noted by Rashi on Bereshis 20:2. It is possible that some might consider Tehillim 79:6 to be in that category, but in my view, the contrast between "el" and "al" makes that very unlikely. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 04:27:13 2021 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 23:27:13 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Milk is Produced also by non-Kosher parts of the Cow Message-ID: The Gemara Chullin 69a documents a very strange discussion. R Yirmiyah asks - is the milk from a cow that has an Issur Yotzeh, Kosher? An Issur Yotzeh is generated when a foetus in utero extends a limb to the outside and then the mother is Shechted. That limb is permanently prohibited and cannot be made Kosher. The rest of the foetus is Kosher. The Gemara explains - ALL milk ought to be Assur, because it comes from a living animal and is like Eiver Min HaChay, and only by force of a special Limmud is it Kosher. On the one hand perhaps that also permits the milk of the cow with the Issur Yotzeh on the other hand, perhaps the Torah only permits milk from a prohibited source which CAN BE revoked via Shechita, whereas the Issur Yotzeh cannot ever be revoked which makes the milk Assur. Why is the Issur Yotzeh different from the Cheilev and Gid that are present in every cow that produces milk? Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:04:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:04:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220449.GB31611@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 03:43:41AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's > first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a > brother? What was the value at that point? isn't a parent supposed to make sure children learn from their mistakes rather than repeat them? Knowing to watch what you're saying has broad applicability in life. If Yaaqov makes sure they see they have that problem, they are that less likely to say too much in other situations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:01:31 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] min hatorah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220131.GA31611@aishdas.org> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 05:22:09PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote: > He begins his chapter on Mevo HaTalmud by saying that most matters learned > from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash, based upon > the references you and I have cited, as well as several others. So, it > comes out that Chazal had a kabalah that these matters were in Torah > Shebe-al Peh MiSinai, but knew that they were not indicated in Toras Moshe, > or could not find any such indication. But they pointed out that they found > that they were eventually committed to either explicit or drash-indicated > writing in Nach. An exception can be found in an oft-cited pasuq, in Yeshiah 57:13 (used by many in / as an introduction to Shabbos morning Qiddush). Mentions a number of shevusim, including masa umatan. I can see how a pasuq in Tanakh can be cited to show there is some TSBP that was already in place and in practice by the time the navi recorded the. But how can we prove whether those pre-existing dinim are really deOraisa? Seems that "mo "most matters learned from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash" could have numerous exceptions. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:02:59 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:02:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:04:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:04:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Soloveitchik Message-ID: Thoughts on the following as applied to Rabbi JB Soloveitchik? James Gleick-"There are two kinds of geniuses: the 'ordinary' and the 'magicians'. An ordinary genius is a fellow whom you and I would be just as good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how his mind works. Once we understand what they've done, we feel certain that we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is a magician of the highest caliber." The Feynman Algorithm: Write down the problem. Think real hard. Write down the solution. The Feynman algorithm was facetiously suggested by Murray Gell-Mann, a colleague of Feynman, in a New York Times interview. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 16:57:10 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:57:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee Message-ID: . This past August, R' Yitzhok Levine cited the OU's "Halacha Yomis": > From https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/i-will-be-travelling-and-would-like-to-know-if-there-is-a-concern-of-bishul-akum-with-coffee-a-consumers-question > I will be travelling and would like to know if there is a concern > of bishul akum with coffee? (A consumer's question) > OU Kosher Certification > > Ostensibly, the prohibition of bishul akum should apply to coffee. As > previously explained, a cooked food which cannot be eaten raw and is > "oleh al shulchan melachim" (served at fancy dinners) requires bishul > Yisroel. Raw coffee beans are inedible, a... > > See the above URL for more. In a subsequent post, I quoted the conclusion of that paragraph, which was: > Nonetheless, the Pri Chodosh writes that brewed coffee need > not be bishul Yisroel, since coffee is primarily water, and > water does not require bishul Yisroel. I have been uneasy with the idea that "primarily water" could be sufficient reason to downgrade the chashivus of a food to the point where it would be exempt from Bishul Yisroel. R' Micha Berger (in this same thread) pointed out that Bishul Yisroel and Chamar Medina seem to have different standards of chashivus. Another halacha that may be related to the above appeared in today's Halacha Yomis, at https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/must-terumah-and-maaser-tithes-be-separated-from-tea-or-herbal-leaves-that-are-grown-in-israel > Must Terumah and Ma'aser (tithes) be separated from tea or > herbal leaves that are grown in Israel? > > Tosofos (Nida 50a s.v. Kol) writes that there are two categories > of spices with regard to Teruma and Ma'aser: a) Spices that are > eaten together with other foods. These require the separation of > teruma and ma'aser. b) Spices that are removed after the cooking > and are discarded. These do not require Teruma and Ma'aser. It > should follow that tea and herbal leaves do not require separation > of Teruma and Ma'aser since the tea leaves are removed after > brewing and are not consumed. Indeed, many Poskim rule this way. > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > and Ma'aser should be separated. I can't help but wonder if Rav Sternbuch might hold - because the tea leaves are significant - that tea *is* subject to Bishul Yisroel. If he does not, that might lend weight to my suspicion that "primarily water" is merely code for "liquids" in the Mimetic Tradition, i.e., that liquids simply are not a concern. (In the Textual Tradition, "primarily water" is an exemption from Bishul Yisroel because water is normally eaten raw, which might not apply to tea leaves and coffee beans.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 3 22:47:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 01:47:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > > and Ma'aser should be separated. In that case why isn't tea ha'adamah, just like vegetable soup? The reason given is because there is no substance of the leaves in the tea, unlike soup where the vegetables are left in it and are consumed with it, and thus constitute the ikar. But according to this that shouldn't matter. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 4 05:45:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? A. This is a complex question, as it is touches on a number of principals that emerge from halachic discussions about the brachos for vegetable soup, fruit soup and beer. Important responsa on this topic were composed about 300 years ago by some of the great poskim of the eighteenth century. One of the first recorded teshuvos on this topic is found in Perach Mateh Aharon (siman 40), who ruled that the appropriate beracha is shehakol. Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt?l (1670-1744) disagrees. He writes in Panim Me?iros (2:190) that borei pri ha?adomah would be more appropriate, given that tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages. Indeed, Rav Meir notes that when visiting the city of Worms Germany, he observed the great chasid, Rav Shmuel Shatin, reciting borei pri ha?adomah on a cup of tea. Rav Meir challenged Rav Shmuel that it is customary to recite a shehakol. Rav Shmuel responded that a minhag that was not established by Rabbonim has no validity. Nonetheless, the Panim Me?eiros concludes a long teshuva by saying that while in theory he sides with Rav Shmuel, but in practice, he does not wish to break with common practice and recites shehakol. Subsequent poskim have defended the custom to recite a shehakol on coffee and tea with various explanations, and that is almost universally accepted. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 4 11:46:25 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:46:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 01:45:06PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? ... > Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt"l (1670-1744) ... writes in Panim Me'iros > (2:190) that borei pri ha'adomah would be more appropriate, given that > tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages... I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. A related (I think) case in the SA is that of date butter (OC 202:7). Date butter is "ha'eitz" for Sepharadim, because date butter was a primary use of dates in the Mechaber's day. The Rama holds the safeiq is real enough to justify "shehakol" as the catch-all. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger How wonderful it is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp nobody need wait a single moment Author: Widen Your Tent before starting to improve the world. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anne Frank Hy"d From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 11:39:20 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 19:39:20 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. Joseph (who has been saying sheasani yisrael for many decades) Sent from my iPhone From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 21:13:22 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 05:13:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com>, Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? > > ----------------------------- > I responded: I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. > --------------------------------------------- > RJR replied: My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Me (again): So was mine. Joseph From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Feb 4 19:54:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 03:54:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? ----------------------------- I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. --------------------------------------------- My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Shabbat Shalom Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 4 17:26:49 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 20:26:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> On 4/2/21 2:46 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel > reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for saying shehakol. To the best of my understanding it's simply an amhoratzus that started because people didn't know what it was. Remember that edible chocolate was only invented around 1800, so most poskim never heard of it. But the issue is very different from that of tea and coffee. The poskim did know what those are, and said they are shehakol because the leaves and beans are discarded and not consumed at all. That's why I was surprised to read an opinion that they are subject to bishul akum. That's obviously not the case with chocolate. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 5 08:40:44 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:40:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? A. Shulchan Aruch (OC 182:2; 272:9; 289:2; 296:2) writes that if there is no wine available, one may recite Birchas Hamazon, Kiddush (see last paragraph for further clarification about kiddush) or Havdalah on a beverage that is prevalent in that location. This is known as Chamar Medinah (the local wine). Do tea or coffee qualify? Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yebia Omer 3:19 and Yechaveh Daas 2:38) cites some Acharonim who maintain that a beverage is only considered Chamar Medinah if it is intoxicating. Based on this, Rav Ovadia Yosef rules that one should not recite Havdalah on tea or coffee. Only alcoholic beverages such as beer are acceptable. This was also the opinion of Rav Chaim Volozhener. The Rogotchover suggests that even if it is necessary for chamar medina to be intoxicating, milk can be considered an intoxicating beverage based on the Gemara (Kerisos 13b)that a cohen may not perform the avodah in the Beis Hamikdash after drinking milk. (Presumably, milk is intoxicating in the sense that it causes drowsiness and affects a person?s mental state.) However, Rav Y.D. Soloveichik (Mi?peninei Harav p. 87) rejects the comparison between avodah and chamar medinah. Milk invalidates a cohen for avodah because it causes drowsiness, while chamar medinah is limited to actual intoxication. On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea. One may add milk to their tea or coffee, but it is not necessary. Igeros Moshe explains that these drinks are similar to wine because they are served to guests to demonstrate distinction or respect, and not only to quench one?s thirst. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 279:9) writes that there are different opinions whether chamar medina may be used for Kiddush at night and during the day. The Mishnah Berurah (272:27) rules that Chamar Medinah may be used for Shabbos daytime kiddush, but should not be used for Friday night Kiddush, If wine is not available, Friday night Kiddush should be recited on challah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:29:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:29:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel >> reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. > I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for > saying shehakol... Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. And that when eating chocolate covered raisins or nuts, both are primary. But concludes that you should make the ha'eitz or ha'adamah on something else first and then the shehakol on the chocolate. (IM OC 3:31) That does imply the chocolate alone would be shehakol, no? (I don't know, maybe he discusses the case of chocolate directly. I can only report on what Bar Ilan helped me find.) Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - George Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:30:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:30:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210207003041.GB20855@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 04:40:44PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? > On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea... The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in Litta. Gut Voch! -Micha From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 6 17:45:42 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 20:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> On 6/2/21 7:29 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. > https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei Teshuva's day. He, like his source the Divrei Yosef (R Yosef Ergas, 1685-1730), as well as the Pri Chadash on the question of bishul akum and other acharonim, were all referring to hot chocolate, which was the only kind that existed in their day. Hot chocolate is a closer question than tea or coffee, because the cocoa itself is drunk and not removed. But Divrei Yosef compares it to Shesisa, a drink made with flour, which the gemara says is mezonos if it's thick but shehakol if it's the consistency of a drink, even though the flour is in it and not removed. > Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without > all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. Actually that is not his sevara, but one he quotes from the Minchas Shlomo as a suggestion, but that the Minchas Shlomo himself questions since it's a clear halacha that ground ginger mixed with sugar is ha'adama (it says ha'etz but that must be a typo), since ginger cannot be eaten on its own. Aderaba, that is the greatest argument for it being ha'etz, since that is not just the ikar way to eat the fruit but the only way. Even if the sugar is the majority, it comes only to make the fruit edible, so it's batel to it. His own sevara for shehakol is that the taste of the sugar and other ingredients is the ikar, and not that of the chocolate at all! But it seems to me that anyone who eats chocolate will testify that it's not so. It's not chocolate-flavored sugar, it's sugar-flavored chocolate, even when the chocolate is less than 50%, kol shekein in those bars that boast on the label of being 55% or 70% or 90% cocoa solids. By the way, he quotes Pachad Yitzchak quoting Yad Malachi, a talmid of R Yosef Ergas, who paskens (unlike his rebbe) to say Ha'eitz on hot chocolate! > RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. That's just it. He doesn't consider the question and pasken on it. He just assumes it. Who knows whether when he wrote that he had any idea what chocolate is. That's my contention about why the worlds says shehakol; they just don't know what it is, or else they're relying on their predecessors who didn't know what it was. None of them considered it. They came to America and found it there in the stores, and assumed it was just another kind of candy, and thus subsumed into the question of sugar, which we pasken is shehakol. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Feb 7 10:28:55 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 18:28:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Between Science and Torah Message-ID: What precisely is the relationship between science and Torah? Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L, deals with this issue in his commentary on Shemos 19:20 in Rav Schwab on Chumash. I have posted what he wrote at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/science_torah.pdf YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 7 14:25:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 17:25:16 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 > > Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei > Teshuva's day... We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. As I see it, if cacao is shehakol in the ST's day, the same would be true of a chocolate bar in ours. Both are the usual form of consumption for the respective times. (If anything, the bar is MORE processed than the drink.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The trick is learning to be passionate in one's http://www.aishdas.org/asp ideals, but compassionate to one's peers. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 17:29:15 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but > only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in > Litta. It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of drinking it. In fact, he contrasts this with several other drinks (seltzer, lemonade, or water with honey mixed in) which are merely "mayim metukanim - enhanced water", and he specifically says that what makes "teh matok" different is that (a) it was cooked, and (b) it is not *called* "water". My conclusion is that the AhS doesn't seem to care whether the tea is sweet or not. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 06:39:13 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:39:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/21 5:25 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 >> Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei >> Teshuva's day... > We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the > distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, > liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their > usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. There is a fundamental difference between food and drink, which is the entire basis of those who say shehakol on tea, coffee, or hot chocolate. In the case of tea and coffee there is deemed to be no substance of the leaf/berry in the water. In the case of chocolate the sevara given to say shehakol is the analogy to the gemara's "shesisa". Shesisa, even if it is merely a thick liquid, is mezonos; kol shekein if it's solid. The same should be true of chocolate. How processed it is should be irrelevant, since this is the normal way the fruit is eaten, just like ginger. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 8 13:03:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:03:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 08:29:15PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you > might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude > unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of > drinking it. Well, in OC 89:23 he notes that some prohibit drinking tea with sugar before davening -- but only wwith sugar. He is unsure why they would say that, since the sugar is just to give the hot drink a little flavor. How does that make sweatened tea "akhilah"? Others allow tea drunk through a sugar cube, but not if the sugar is dissolved in the tea. (One of the places where the AhS cites the MB.) There, he does conclude "ve'eino iqar". I am just pointing out that elsewhere in the AhS, tea and tea with sugar are different things. So, I wouldn't just assume he added the word "matoq" here simply because that's the norm. (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. I would want evidence it even was their norm. In siman 89, he gives the din for tea but if the tea is with sugar.... As opposed to if the se'if saw a need to call the first case "tea without sugar" or "unsweatened tea".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 8 05:19:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 13:19:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Proper Method of Torah Research Message-ID: The following is from the fourth footnote to RSRH's Eighteenth Letter in the Nineteen Letters. A word here about the proper method of Torah research. Two revelations are before us: nature and Torah. The same method of investigation must apply to both. In studying nature, all phenomena confront us as given data, and we can only endeavor to find the laws applying to them, and their interrelation, a posteriori-by starting from these phenomena themselves. The proof of the truth of your theory, or rather of the probability of its correctness, can be provided only by nature itself, since you will have to test your theory against nature's phenomena in order to be able to state with the highest possible degree of certainty that the facts indeed confirm your assumptions, i.e., that every phenomenon observed can be explained according to your theory. In nature, one single contradicting fact can invalidate your theory, and you must, therefore, make sure to obtain as much information as possible about the phenomena that you are studying, so that, as far as possible, you will have all the facts at your disposal. Moreover, even where we are not able to ascertain the laws and interrelations governing any given phenomenon, the phenomenon itself remains a fact. All this applies equally to the study of Torah. Just as heaven and earth are facts, so, to us, are the Torah21 and its commandments. In the Torah, just as in nature, the ultimate cause is God. In the Torah, just as in nature, no fact can be denied, even though we may comprehend neither its cause nor its relation to others; instead, we must persevere, in the Torah as in nature, to trace God's wisdom which manifests itself in them. In studying the Torah, then, we must begin by accepting the Torah's commandments in their entirety as given facts; we must study them and their relationship to each other and to the aspects of life that they govern. Then we must test the soundness of our theories by their conformity with the provisions of the Law; and, here too, the highest possible degree of certainty is obtained if everything fits our theory. Moreover, just as the phenomena of nature remain facts even though we may not have found their causes or interrelationships, and just as their existence does not depend on the results of our investigation-rather, the reverse is true-so, too, the commandments of the Torah are law even if we have not uncovered the cause and interrelationships of even a single one, and our fulfillment of the commandments in no way depends on the results of our investigation. Only the commandments belonging to the category of Edos, which seek to convey insights and to affect the emotions, remain incomplete without adequate investigation. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 13:56:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:56:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> References: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 8/2/21 4:03 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in > Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. Sugar was quite expensive there, while across the border in Galicia it was cheap. That's why Litvaks make their gefilte fish and luction kugel salty and Galicianers make them sweet. The Baal Hatanya, who lived on his pay as the town maggid, first in Liozna and then in Liadi, once asked the town council for a raise, because after much thought he had come to the conclusion that sugar is a necessity and not a luxury (hechrochios and not mosros). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 9 07:30:04 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 15:30:04 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Honoring Parents Message-ID: Please see the article at https://vosizneias.com/2021/02/09/honoring-parents-and-a-new-interpretation-from-rav-elyashiv-ztl/ [https://vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rabbi-Yosef-Shalom-Elyashiv-1024x640-1.jpg] Honoring Parents, and a New Interpretation from Rav Elyashiv Zt"l - Vos Iz Neias by Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com Last week, parshas Yisro, we leined the aseres hadibros. In them, of course, is the Mitzvah of Kivud Av v?Aim ? honoring one?s parents. The Torah itself assures us that one who is careful with it will merit long life ? something very apropos during this pandemic. The Talmud [?] vosizneias.com >From this article Speech ? Children must speak softly to their parents, in a calm tone, and using the most honorable terminology and modes of address. (See Kiddushin 30a,b). On the other hand, if one speaks abusively to one?s parents he or she will earn a place in Gehenam, rachmana litzlan. Action ? The Mishna Brurah (301:4) indicates that, if possible, it is a Mitzvah to greet one?s parents every day. There are also numerous actions that are obvious that must be done regularly, for example, taking out the garbage for them regularly ? without being asked; offering them drinks or food; requesting if there is anything they need in terms of shopping, mail, etc. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:48:15 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minhagim change over time Message-ID: Understanding how certain minhagim change over time: Imho this is a process which plays out historically without a clear algorithm. Only through the eyes of retrospection (e.g. the aruch hashulchan) is the result koshered (see hilchot aveilut as an example) Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:46:39 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:46:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience Message-ID: On belief based on personal experience: A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) Me-How do we take this into account in our emunah process? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:54:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:54:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Personal thoughts on Avodah Message-ID: * Ari Wasserman,Rabbi Moshe Hauer,Rabbi Moshe Mordechai Lowy,Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz,Reb Dovid Lichtenstein,Mr. Charlie Harary-1/2/21 - Show 304 - What halachically is a good (or bad) use of our time? Someone I know often says, "Time is our most precious and perishable asset." OTOH I'm not sure I can agree with Mick Jagger that, "Time is on my side, yes it is". You can listen here to the various presentations or you can send me $4.95 (plus shipping and handling) for Joel's magic elixir algorithm which will cure all your ills and give you the proper balance of learning, sleeping, relaxing, eating, etc. For an extra $1.05 you'll also get the proper breakdown of learning time by subject including Tehillim and gedolim bios! Seriously IMHO this our biggest avodah, figuring out how HKB"H wants us to spend our time, especially the marginal free minute. IMHO you need to think about this throughout life and to talk about it from time to time with others to ensure you take into account your blind spots (true of life in general). For me, having a working basic knowledge of behavioral economics, social science, quantum physics, scientific method, legal theory, etc. will improve one's talmud torah and avodat hashem. Just be sure you're not trying to see everything as a nail because you have a hammer! These are my thoughts on our avodah in dynamic time allocation today. What are yours? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ereich at zen.co.uk Thu Feb 11 02:37:15 2021 From: ereich at zen.co.uk (L Reich) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 10:37:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: <8dab4744-a501-4547-d3af-aad949ae4e5c@zen.co.uk> to Avodah forum: Can anyone reconcile the seeming halachic contradiction regarding figs, whether fresh or dry (the latter being known as /Grogrois/ in the Talmud. All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement of examination before consumption. Yet.... Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of /Grogrois/, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the cake? Furthermore in dealing with the hazard of /Gilui/ - liquids and soft foods left uncovered and possibly injected with snake venom - The Talmud Yurshalmi states that one may eat (soft) figs in the dark and not worry about venom. What about insects ? Elozor Reich -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 13:00:12 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:00:12 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? Message-ID: From https://www.kosher.com/lifestyle/this-year-purim-falls-on-friday-what-time-should-i-begin-my-purim-seuda-1436 [https://www.kosher.com/resized/open_graph/h/a/hamentashen_purim_concept_banner.jpg] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? | Lifestyle | Kosher.com Written by Rabbis Eli Gersten, Yaakov Luban, and Moshe Zywica of the Orthodox Union . The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat.. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat ... www.kosher.com The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat?chila postpone the seuda up until three hours before Shabbat. Bedieved (after the fact), if one is unable to begin the seuda until later, one must still eat the seuda up until Shabbat. If one is still in the middle of the Purim seuda at shkia (sunset), when Shabbat begins, one must cover the food, recite Kiddush, and then continue the meal. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if this were to happen, one would recite Retzei in bentching, but not al hanissim. One cannot recite both retzei and al hanissim, since this would be a contradiction. Since we are required to recite retzei, this indicates that it is Shabbat and Purim is over. Therefore, one can no longer recite al hanissim. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 06:16:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:16:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Special Seudah When Rosh Chodesh is on Shabbos Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This Shabbos will also be Rosh Chodesh. We will be eating three seudos in honor of Shabbos. Is there anything additional that should be served in honor of Rosh Chodesh? A. There are two versions of the Talmud. The Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) was redacted in the sixth century. The Talmud Yerushalmi was composed in an earlier period in Israel. The Tur (OC 419) quotes the Talmud Yerushalmi (Megilah 1:4) that when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, the Rosh Chodesh seuda is postponed until Sunday. (It is not feasible to eat the Rosh Chodesh meal on Shabbos since three meals already take place in honor of Shabbos.) It is apparent from the Yerushalmi that a seuda is required on Rosh Chodesh. In light of the above, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 419:2) is surprised that we do not observe this custom of eating a Rosh Chodesh seudah. He speculates that since this meal is not mentioned in the Talmud Bavli, it was assumed that the Bavli disagrees with the Yerushalmi. When there is a conflict between the Bavli and Yerushalmi, we follow the Bavli, and therefore the Rosh Chodesh seuda was not observed. The Aruch Hashulchan concludes that in deference to the Yerushalmi, an extra dish should be served at the meal on Rosh Chodesh. Similarly, when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, an extra dish should be added to the Shabbos meal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 11 15:38:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:38:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210211233848.GA14859@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 03:46:39AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> On belief based on personal experience: I checked on TorahMusings, and RJR forgot to say there as well just who he is quoting, but someone wrote: >> A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and >> analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations >> similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space >> (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they >> actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how >> many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) And RJR asked: > How do we take this into account in our emunah process? I think that's leaving the personal experience route, trying to use the idea of personal experience as a data point to build a philosophical argument. Kind of like the difference between the Kuzari cheileq 1's appeal to tradition, and "The Kuzari Principle" trying to make a philosophical argument out of the impossibility of forging this kind of tradition. The question is whether you want to philosophically get knowledge about the Borei, or you want to get to better know Him. The Rambam, because he believes that a personal relationship of that sort is impossible, focuses on theological knowledge about G-d. On the opposite extreme, R Nachman eschewed studying about G-d because all that intellectualizing gets in the way of knowng Him. The resolution I pursue in my own life assumes neither of these ends of the spectrum. Ever do something you know was the wrong choice? That's because there is a gap between what we think and what we feel. (R' Elya Lopian -- all of mussar is about moving something just an ammah. Moving an idea from the head to the heart.) It is therefore not necessarily true that a pursuit of philosophical knowledge about Hashem in all His Transcendence has to get in the way of finding a relationship with Him. This is a case where compartmentalization is a good thing. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 19:18:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 22:18:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: . R' Elozor Reich asked: > All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects > found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement > of examination before consumption. > > Yet.... > > Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of > Grogrois, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed > examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did > the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the > cake? My presumption is that the ancients knew what to look for, and so they had a simpler task of discerning a problematic fig from a problem-free fig. It is "exhausting" for us because we are less familiar with what we are doing, so we go to extremes to ensure that we've resolved all doubts. It is comparable to making matzah. Back in the day, they knew what they were doing, so they could make a loaf up to a tefach thick, and still be confident that it was chometz-free. They knew how to keep kneading the dough, so that even with the passage of hours, it would still not become chometz. They could even mix flour into a pot of boiling water, and it would cook so fast that it couldn't become chometz. But we have forgotten the details, and we're woefully out of practice. So most of us go crazy making the matza as thin as we can, and bake it as fast as we can. And just to be extra-sure, many go for the well-done matzos, disdaining the merely baked ones. So too with the figs, I suspect. If you know what you're doing, you can take a glance and know whether it has any bugs or not. But if you've lost the mimetics of how to do that, a surgical inspection is the only way to know for sure. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 18:38:50 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:38:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . No, I don't really doubt that Rosh Chodesh *does* have kedusha, if for no other reason than the Beis Din's announcement of "Medudash!" My actual question concerns how we express that kedusha, and in particular, how we talk about its kedusha in our tefilos. In the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh, the middle bracha - often nicknamed "Kedushas Hayom" - closes with the words, "Baruch Atah Hashem, mekadesh Yisrael v'Rashei Chadashim. - Blessed are You, Hashem, Who sanctifies Israel and New Moons." This conclusion certainly attests to the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh, but it seems strange to me that the body of the bracha doesn't. The main text of this bracha, beginning with the words "Rashei Chadashim l'amcha natata," says many nice things about Rosh Chodesh: It's a time for kapara, we would bring korbanos. We ask Hashem that we should be able to bring these korbanos again, and we ask Him for all sorts of brachos in this new month. And we finally state the basis for these requests: "For You chose your people Israel from all the nations, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Not a single word about the kedusha of the day (until after we cross over from the body of the bracha into the chasima). The root k-d-sh never even appears, except in the phrase "Beis Hamikdash". What's going on here? I clearly recall learning, once upon a time, halachos about the structure of a bracha, and how the conclusion should summarize the main point of what the bracha is about. But that doesn't happen here. The body of the bracha talks about the Newness of the new month, and the conclusion talks about its Holiness. When Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, this omission is even sharper: "You made your Holy Shabbos known to them, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Shabbos is explicitly holy, but Rosh Chodesh just has laws? For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant that I won't bother to list them. Amida and Musaf on the Shalosh Regalim have at least two mentions of the day's kedusha: The paragraph of "Vatiten Lanu" has the phrase "Yom Tov [Ploni] Mikra Kodesh", then just before the chasima we have the phrase "Moadei Kodshecha". On Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, "Mikra Kodesh" seems to be the only explicit reference, but that's still a lot more than Rosh Chodesh's zero. I readily concede that the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh is less than that of the other holidays, possibly even less than that of Chol Hamoed. And perhaps that's the message that Chazal were sending us when they formulated this bracha. Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Sun Feb 14 02:23:31 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:23:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 04:00, Akiva Miller wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other > holidays. > Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant > that I won't bother to list them. On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it that are different. ADE From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 06:15:34 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:15:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . I wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on > other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, ... R' Allan Engel commented> > On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the > same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it > that are different. I am not familiar with this idea. Are you suggesting that these "piyutim" were inserted long after the Anshei Knesses Hagedola, similar to the pituyim that are reserved for Chazaras Hashatz on special occasions? Thet would be news to me, most especially in the case of Musaf, where mentioning the korbanos is mandated by halacha. Even if these paragraphs are recent additions, my point was that all four of them specifically mention the kedusha of Shabbos: Maariv: "Atah kidashta es yom hashevii", "V'kidashto mikol hazmanim" Shacharis and Musaf: "Am m'kadshei shevii", "uvashevii ratzisa bo v'kidashto" Mincha: "Yom menucha uk'dusha" Additional data point: My question isn't about the Amidah specifically, but about the structure of a Bracha Arucha in general. So I took a look at the last bracha after reading the haftara. On both Shabbos and Yom Tov, this bracha concludes with the same words as we say in Kiddush and in the middle bracha of the Amida, attesting to the Kedushas Hayom. But what of the body of the bracha? On Shabbos, we say "v'al yom haShabbos hazeh, shenasata lanu Hashem Elokeinu likdusha", so that matches up. But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 15 13:45:23 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:45:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim Message-ID: Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA OU's Guidelines for Purim The approaching Adar and Purim represent the sobering milestone of a year since the arrival of the pandemic on these shores. This year has brought devastating loss of life, immense financial struggle, and significant personal and social upheaval. At the same time, we are approaching a time of year that should be filled with simcha. How do we balance these emotions and experiences? See the attached guidelines, written in concert with our poskim and medical professionals. Read Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 16 09:25:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:25:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210216172556.GA18273@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 04:45:23PM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA > OU's Guidelines for Purim See also the Agudah's guidelines https://agudah.org/purim-5781-a-time-for-mindfulness-and-care And the guidelines sent around Lakewood in the name of BMG's rashei yeshiva: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1948510 (which I think is the most conservative of those I've seen) Over in my backyard, R Ron Yitzchak Eisenman sent out guidelines for Ahavas Israel of Passaic, but since RRYE is a known columnist, I thought people might be curious what he told his shul. See below, although except for capitalizing what was originally in BOLD, formatting was removed. Tir'u baTov! -Micha --------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 12:06 PM Subject: Purim 5781 Purim 5781 """""""""" Under no circumstances may anyone ever enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose The New PIP """"""""""" You all remember PIP? Purim in Pashut. This year there is a new PIP. Purim in Pandemic. How do we celebrate the joyous day of Purim during the Pandemic? The answer is, of course, by adhering to the Covid guidelines strictly and uncompromisingly. I recall very well last Purim. No one was masking as back then; in fact, we were told not to mask. No one social distanced as we never heard of the term. Purim was celebrated together with close contact, sharing of food and drink, and unbeknownst to us at the time; we were also transmitting a deadly pathogen that would wreak havoc on the world, AND PARTICULARLY HARD HIT WERE ORTHODOX JEWS. This year Baruch Hashem, we know to be careful. THEREFORE, IN THE SPIRIT OF EVEN A SAFEK PIKUACH NEFESH (SLIGHT CHANCE OF A LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION), I PRESENT MY GUIDELINES FOR PURIM 5781. 1. Parshas Zachor -- As I have mentioned in the past, the Shul follows the Psak of the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim Kanievsky that women are NOT obligated to hear Parshas Zachor. 2. Therefore, please observe the socially distant setup of the women's section. Preferably, unless you are a regular Shul goer, better not to come. If you do go and see there are no seats, DO NOT enter the women's section. You are putting people in danger, and you are doing a "Mitzvah through an Aveira." 3. The above rule of not crowding the sections applies to the Men's section as well. 4. Under no circumstances may anyone enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. 5. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose PURIM Night """"""""""" 1. One may eat before hearing the Megillah 2. Therefore, women or men who will hear the Megillah later should eat after 6:18 PM on Thursday 3. If you cannot get out to hear the Megillah, and no one can come to you to read it. You may listen to a live Zoom broadcast of the Megillah and read along with the Baal Koreh in your printed Megillah. Purim Day """"""""" a. Mishloach Manos -- Minimal Mishloach Manos this year. You only need to give two food items to one person to fulfill the Mitzvah. b. When delivering the (hopefully one) Mishloach Manos, make sure to wear a mask c. It is highly recommended not to go driving around town delivering food. This can G-d forbid lead to a "super-spreader" infecting many people. d. Stay home in your family bubble. e. The Mitzvah this year is "less (contact) is more (health)!" f. Matanos L'Evyonim can be given to me either (cash or check) in Shul beginning today. g. If you want to drop off Matanos L'Evyonim at my home (that is allowed and recommended), please come masked h. I respectfully ask that no one feel they need to visit me and certainly do not feel the need to bring me Mishloach Manos. i. The Purim Seuda should consist of people only in your immediate bubble. j. Preferably it should take place in the morning as Shabbos is coming! k. Use the extra time to learn Torah, say Tehillim, and spend quality with your children or yourself. Wishing all a joyous Purim Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Rabbi, Congregation Ahavas Israel Passaic, NJ From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 16 09:58:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:58:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Learning for the sake of learning, just to occupy one's mind with the intricacies of the Torah, even if the practical application of the law is already known, is limited to men. A woman who learns Torah does not become greater in yiras Shamayim because of it. True, she may become very learned in Torah, but this is not the object of talmud Torah. A woman may become a great philosopher or scientist, but Torah is not philosophy or science. Torah is the way Hakadosh Baruch Hu communicates with us. Only because talmud Torah is a mitzvah, a positive commandment for man, can it be a means to connect to Hashem and thereby increase his yiras Shamayim. Because a woman has no specific mitzvah of talmud Torah, she cannot utilize it as a means to increase her many ways of connection to Hashem. If a man is a great talmud chacham, having learned the entire Talmud, and has not become a greater yerei Shamayim this learning has not achieved its purpose. If a woman were to learn and know Gemara just as well as a man, it still would not make her one iota better than she is. It would have no influence on her relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu. she'asani kirtzono - He has made me according to his will, means that a woman does not need talmud Torah to come close to Hakadosh Baruch Hu. A woman can even have prophecy-the closest possible relationship to Hakadosh Baruch Hu-without learning Torah. [Email #2. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274-275. Women are also obligated to say Biros Ha Torah. While patur (exempt) from talmud Torah purely for the sake of learning, women are, nevertheless, obligated to learn the halachos of the mitzvos so they can properly fulfil them. With the exception of the few time-bound mitzvos, women have the same obligation as men to know and keep the vast majority of the mitzvos of the Torah. It is therefore incumbent upon women to learn the details of these mitzvos in order to observe them properly. How can women keep Shabbos or Yom Tov properly without knowing the applicable halachos? How can a woman conduct a business if she is not familiar with the dinim (laws) of ribbis (interest), ona'ah (misrepresentation or price fraud), or gezel (outright theft)? The difference is only in the goal of the learning. For a man, in addition to the need to know the practical halachos in order to apply them, it is also a mitzvah to occupy himself with talmud Torah as a form of avodas Hashem, serving Hashem. This is so even if there is no immediate need for this knowledge in practice, either because he already knows the dinim, or because his immediate circumstances do not require the application of what he is learning. However, for a woman, the purpose of the learning is to gain the knowledge in order to put it into practice. From zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com Tue Feb 16 11:16:54 2021 From: zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com (Zalman Alpert) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] On Feb 16, 2021 12:58 PM, "Prof. L. Levine" wrote: > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Have to admit this is strange but reflects a weird attitude towards females May I add that the views of R Schwab are not necessarily in line with Rav Breuer or Rav SR Hirsch or that they represent daas Torah just at this point a daas Yachid it warrants further investigation By the way Rav Schwab personally from the pulpit thanked and praised the late Isha gedolah Dr Gertrude Hirschler for her abridged trans of the Hirsch chumash That was not practical halacha but Torah lishma Torah hashkofa is complex and single modules or power points do not reflect the reality on the ground This is true as all rabbis are humans and MAY and do change positions,the Rav was a powerful Agudist until 1946 and then joined Mizrachi so I can guote what he said in 1938 and that would NOT reflect his position later Rabbi Schwab himself reversed himself in Tide several times ... [Email #2. -micha] > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274 - 275. Besides hilchos Shabbos none of the halachoth mentioned was taught at the Breuer's girls high school,some time was spent on secondary subjects that could gave been used Rav Schwab was the Board of Ed dean of all KAJ schools I suspect hilchos Shabbes are taught in most Bath Jacobs in metro NY And in the KAJ school no text was used no kittzur not even Rabbi Posen's Amira leBays Yaakov which was designated as a supplementary text but not formally studied As the chazal say esmahmeha ? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 16 22:39:57 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 06:39:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts Message-ID: For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 04:13:42 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 07:13:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was learning this week. I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even today. Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? Akiva Miller (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra guessing. Happy Adar!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 18 05:04:17 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? Message-ID: There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different depending on where you live and the day of the year. For a detailed discussion of this issue see https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ YL Depression Angles ? The Seforim Blog Depression Angles By William Gewirtz. Introduction: Depression angles measure the level of darkness or illumination prior to sunrise and, in a parallel fashion, after sunset. seforimblog.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 11:53:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218195341.GB18578@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 01:04:17PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different > depending on where you live and the day of the year. > > For a detailed discussion of this issue see > https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ Only end. The day begins at sheqi'ah. 0 minutes after sunset equals the sun declining 0 degrees below the horizon. No difference in when the day starts between computing a fixed interval or degrees below horizon. In any case, computing tzeis isn't siginificantly more complex. It's as easy to compute sunset (0 deg below the horizon) and add 36 minutes as it is to compute when the sun is 7.12 deg below the horizon. See the page I wrote at http://aishdas.org/luach Or the widely used http://mysmanim.com Both use declination. But I like my formatting. One page per month in normal 7x4 or 7x5 calendar format. At the cost of not having every zeman published for every day, and having to split the difference between the zeman as it was two days before today and two day after. (I even threw in the Molad on days that have one. One known bug -- doesn't know which cities light 40 min before sheqi'ah.) Suggestions invited. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 14:36:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:36:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218223619.GA9395@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 07:13:42AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic... Shorashim, likely not. So I can't help you with cases like "techum". But it shouldn't take that much diqduq knowledge to recognize which way the word is conjugated, so, more hope for verbs. Then the easy things, like .... I say "like", but I only can think of this example: No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. A final alef "-a" for zakhar nouns ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. Eg: Malkah with a hei is Lh"Q for queen. Malka with an alef - Aramit for king. For that matter, once we get to rabbinic Hebrew, the shorashim they both got from before the split between the languages is compounded by Leshon Chazal's heavy borrowing of shorashim from Aramit. The question of which language a shoresh belongs to itself becomes blurry. More like asking "when did this enter Hebrew". Like "techum", which is used in Mishnayos, in Hebrew. So, it's a Hebrew word, but a later addition, borrowed from Aramaic. (Then there is always sefaria. When you search for the word, which books dominate the search results? If the answer is Targumim, the Talmuds, Zohar, etc... you know it's Aramaic. Of course, so much of gemara (TY & TB) is in Hebrew, finding a word in gemara alone wouldn't make the point.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was > learning this week. > > I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra > v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* > was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good > example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase > "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, > and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to > conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it > was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. > > I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the > loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the > word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), > which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a > form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A > "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). > [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find > this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is > actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. > > On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must > be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any > Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any > Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has > many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, > the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what > Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa > cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute > "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak > claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same > pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that > Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in > about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. > > My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is > Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few > places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that > whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days > of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, > and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even > today. > > Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even > earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? > > Akiva Miller > > (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, > here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. > I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's > not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. > Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want > another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra > guessing. Happy Adar!) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 02:36:31 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:36:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. > A final alef "-a" for zakhar nound ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. When I was in yeshiva, I had a friend who had more than a few seforim published with Hebrew fonts, but not Hebrew language. I ended up developing a set of rules by which I could determine a book's language at just a glance: Lots of words ending with Heh - Hebrew Lots of words ending with Aleph - Aramaic Lots of words starting with Aleph - Arabic Lots of words with aleph or ayin or double-yud in the middle - Yiddish I had a rule for Ladino too, but I've forgotten it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 19 06:26:43 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:26:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi (Megillas Esther 9:16-17) explains that the Purim story took place because Haman maligned the Jews, saying that they engage in personal feuds and do not get along with one another. This is alluded to in the verse ?yeshno am echad mefuzar umeforad bein ha?amim?, there is one nation which is dispersed and scattered among the nations, i.e., lacking unity. To demonstrate the falsehood of this libelous charge, Mordechai and Esther instituted that Mishloach Manos should be given to one?s friends and acquaintances, to foster camaraderie and good will among the Jews. This demonstrates that we do not engage in personal feuds; on the contrary, we engage in acts of friendship, by gifting our food to others. Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving one?s acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Feb 19 11:33:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:33:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi... >> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor >> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal >> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). I am not understanding the ThD's explanation. After all, there is already a mitzvah in that niche. So: 1- On the first layer of the explanation, why then enact both mishloach manos and matanos le'evyonim? And 2- If we give MM to the wealthy so as not to embarass the poor, why not JUST mishloach manos, rather than matanos le'evyonim embarassing them? :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 20 19:08:07 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 22:08:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> References: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <0568e6c2-010b-31a1-fd3b-7e820b8d7560@sero.name> On 19/2/21 2:33 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: >> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >>> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >>> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >>> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Ad kan Terumas Hadeshen. The rest is the Chasam Sofer's suggestion, or rather the OU writer's understanding of the same, which I believe to be flawed. First of all, though, the Terumas Hadeshen does not mention "poor people". He says the purpose of mishloach manos is so that everyone will have enough food for the seudah, and therefore it must consist of food. Money or clothing will not do, since one can't serve those at the seudah, whereas matanos la'evyonim can be food *or* money, or anything else that helps. It should be readily understood that a person need not be poor in order to find himself not quite up to making as big a seudah as he would like. It may be that he is neither rich nor poor, he's keeping up with his bills, but he can't afford to make the kind of purim seuda he would like to make, and a care package would be welcome. It may also be that someone has plenty of money but for some reason he didn't buy enough when he went shopping, or he just isn't that good a cook, and would appreciate an outside contribution to the meal. >>> Although most people are not poor >>> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, This part is not in the ThD or the ChS, and is the OU writer's own interjection. >>> Chazal >>> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >>> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). This is the ChS, except that he doesn't say "wealthy", he says one who has plenty of food. It could even be a poor person who happens to be well provided for the purim seudah, even if he'll be eating the leftovers all week. Technically, according to the ThD's explanation of the reason for the mitzvah there's no reason to send to this person -- one could send him matanos la'evyonim, but not mishloach manos! -- , but nevertheless the ChS suggests that Chazal said to send him anyway so as not to embarrass those who are not so well supplied. The ChS's point, however, is not to whom one should send, but whether the recipient can decline, and if he does whether the giver is yotzei. So he says that according to the ThD's explanation it's obvious that if the person actually could use the extra food then his mechilah is of no effect; lepo'el his seudah is now short of what it could be, so the purpose of the mitzvah was not fulfilled. But he says even one who is well supplied should not decline, so as not to embarrass those who don't decline. I think this answers both of your questions. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 03:47:20 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 06:47:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur Message-ID: In the "credit where credit is due" department, this post results from an article in the recent issue (Dec 2020) of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. It contains an article titled "The Halachos of Davening at Home" by "Rabbi Avraham Yeshaya Cohen, Translated by Rabbi Nosson Kaiser". On page 74-75, he writes: >>> It is forbidden for a tzibbur to recite ha'aderes v'ha'emunah except on Yom Kippur, but an individual may say it anytime. [Mishnah Berurah 565:12. Nusach Sefarad says it every Shabbos and Yom Tov during pesukei d'zimra. Perhaps that is considered an individual's tefillah, as there is no requirement for a tzibbur at that point. In fact, Siddur Tezelosa D'avraham p. 159 writes that it should be said quietly, and the chazzan should not end it aloud. See also Aruch Hashulchan 281:4 and Sheivet Levi 10:86.] Mishnah Berurah 565:12 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur, though an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. [Pri Megadim in Eishel Avraham] The Dirshu Mishneh Berurah 565:16 gives some arguments (pro and con) about saying it in Pesukei D'Zimra, and also raises the issue of singing it during Hakafos on Simchas Torah. Magen Avraham 565:5 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur. (R"m Mahari"l) Pri Megadim 565:5 says: >>> See the Magen Avraham about b'tzibbur, but an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. See Darchei Moshe. Darchei Moshe 565:4 says: >>> The Mahari'v wrote that the tefillah Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah can be said by an individual any day of the year, but a tzibbur is forbidden to say it except on Yom Kippur. My question about all this does not concern the exceptions that are made for Pesukei D'Zimra or for Simchas Torah. Rather, I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. Are there any other examples of this? Can anyone explain why it would be wrong for a tzibur to choose to say it on a day other than Yom Kippur? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 20:33:22 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 23:33:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" (beis-vav-tzadi). "Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in Divrei Hayamim. I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all of these as coming from Aramaic: techum (Onkelos' translation of gevul in Bereshis 10:19 and Devarim 27:17) butz (Onkelos' translation of shesh in Bereshis 41:42 and Shemos 28:39) yakar (Onkelos' translation of kavod in Shemos 28:2 and Devarim 5:21) siruv (Onkelos' translation of ma'en in Shemos 7:27 and Bamidbar 20:21) On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. One more note: This dictionary is available on line, as a searchable and downloadable pdf file, at https://archive.org/stream/AComprehensiveEtymologicalDictionaryOfTheHebrewLanguageErnestKlein1987OCR but its copyright is murky to me. There's an "Info" button near the top right of that page, and if you click it and the "More information" button afterwards, it claims that the dictionary is in the public domain. But page 2 of the dictionary itself says "Copyright 1987 by ...", so I don't know which claim is more correct. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 21 07:37:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 10:37:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210221153722.GA10838@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 11:33:22PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated > as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as > "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form > of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is > indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I > suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. I was under the impression that shif'il is an Aramaic binyan that is borrowed by Hebrew. So, it is used for Hebrew shorashim, but the resulting word is only Hebrew after influence from Aramaic. But AFAIK, shif'il and the passive shuf'al (meshubadim hayinu leFar'oh) don't appear in Tanakh. So, one could accurately says shi'bud is Hebrew, but Rabbinic Hebrew has Aramaic influences... So, the answer isn't all that black-and-white. Why not re-ask on our sister list mesorah at aishdas.org ? It's full of people interested in nusach, as well as getting leining and tefillah "just right". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sun Feb 21 10:19:26 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:19:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/2/21 11:33 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was > Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and > many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, > and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" > (beis-vav-tzadi).?"Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word > (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash > days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in > Divrei Hayamim. Note that in Esther 1:6, in the same pasuk where "bootz" is used to mean what the Chumash calls "shesh", "shesh" is used to mean "shayish", marble. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From simon.montagu at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 00:36:11 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:36:11 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 5:27 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason > I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive > Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by > Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen > it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all > of these as coming from Aramaic: > Klein's dictionary is also available on Sefaria with a search interface: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Klein_Dictionary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 06:32:07 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:32:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Please see my question at the end. Q. I ordered a food package on Amazon two days before Purim with guaranteed delivery to my friend on Purim day. Do I fulfill the mitzvah of Mishloach Manos with such an arrangement? A. This is a matter of dispute among the poskim. Some hold that by doing so he does fulfill his obligation of Mishloach Manos (Be?er Heitev to OC 695:7, citing Yad Aharon; Da?as Torah in the name of Mahari Assad, and Rav Elyashiv, cited in Yevakshu Mipihu, Purim 1:31). However Aruch HaShulchan (695:17) held that one does not fulfill Mishloach Manos with this arrangement. The Ben Ish Chai (Teshuvos Torah Lishmah 188) explains the reasoning behind this dispute as follows: In the previous Halacha Yomis we learned that there is a dispute as to why Mishloach Manos are given. Is it to engender good will and camaraderie between people (Manos Halevi), or is it to ensure that poor people have sufficient food for their Purim Seudah (Terumas HaDeshen)? If Mishloach Manos are to foster good will ? one must send the food on Purim itself because sending the food is part of the mitzvah. Those who hold that one is yotzei, take the position that the purpose of Mishloach Manos is for the recipient to have sufficient food for the seudah. Hence, as long as the food is received on Purim ? even if it was sent prior to Purim ? the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah. _____________________________________________________________ According to the opinion that "the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah" is the purpose of sending Mishaloach Manos, then it seems to me that sending candy and cake does not fulfill the mitzvah. While some kids may make feel that candy and cakes are fine for a meal, most adults do not, and hence it seems to me that one who sends candy and sweets does not fulfill his/her obligation to send Mishaloach Manos. For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 12:57:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 15:57:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 02:32:07PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and > croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! One can argue from the Rambam's Hikkhos Tzedaqah that the same applies to michloach manos, and it's better to give smaller m"m to more people. Or maybe not. The question of how to safely do mishloach manos this year is a touchy one, and depends on local conditions. I heard one LOR recommend giving just one person whom you've already had similar contact with, and save all the great "themed shalachmanos" ideas for next year. Last year, the week before Pesach was a vary sad one in our community. (I still cry when I think of R Matis Blum's [Torah Loda'as] mother, someone who fed me many a Shabbos Qiddush snack when I was a boy, who was still sitting shiv'ah for R Matis when she started shiv'ah for her husband.) But last Purim, we weren't aware of the notion of a "superspreader event". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone http://www.aishdas.org/asp or something in your life actually attracts more Author: Widen Your Tent of the things that you appreciate and value into - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF your life. - Christiane Northrup, M.D. From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 12:08:10 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:08:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Message-ID: The following is from the Sefer The Vilna Gaon on Megillas Esther by Rabbi Asher Baruch Wegbreit. This Sefer contains many interesting insights into the Megillah. Pasuk !:4 says "when he showed the riches of his glorious kingdom, and the splendor of his excellent majesty, many days, one hundred and eighty days." Question: Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Answer: The answer lies in understanding the real purpose of the feast. Vashti's grandfather Nevuchadnezzar had hidden 1,080 treasure houses near the Euphrates River, but Hashem revealed them to Koresh, the king who preceded Achashverosh, because Hashem had designated Koresh to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. Achashverosh inherited these treasures from him. Achashverosh decided to display his vast wealth to the officers and noblemen of all the provinces of his empire in order to awe them into submission and thereby solidify his kingship, and he used the feast as a context for the presentation. The feast was thus a pretense to allow what would have otherwise been ostentatious display of his wealth. The pasuk describes this in passive form "in his showing of his treasures," to hint that this display, which was actually the purpose of the feast, was conducted in a casual manner, as if it were merely a secondary goal. Achashverosh showcased his 1,080 treasure houses at a rate of six per day- as alluded to in the six words in the pasuk describing his wealth and power ("riches," glorious," "kingdom," "honor," "sp1endorous, " and "greatness")-on each of the 180 days of the feast (180 x 6 = 1,080). At the feast, Achashverosh also donned the Kohen Gadol's garments, to convey his personal greatness and royal dominion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 22 14:55:41 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:55:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:57 PM 2/22/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say >I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is >likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave >one maneh! So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. I think not! The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different brochos, even if combined. YL From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 20:37:09 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:37:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the > AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. > > Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your > practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for > one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons > into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is considered as two??" He makes no mention of the size of these pieces; if I give a nice-size portion of meat, and then a second portion just like it, it doesn't count, because it needs to be TWO TYPES of food. The AhS quotes the Rambam as writing, "two portions of meat, or two types of food, or two types of tavshil." [Note the change in language: Rambam used the word "manos" for the meat, but "minim" for food and tavshil.] AhS concludes that "His writing 'two types' forces you to say that when he wrote 'two portions of meat' he meant 'of two types'. Or. maybe it was a printer's error and it should have said 'two types of meat' just like 'two types of food'." In your scenario, where I gave someone a bowl of salad, and a second bowl of croutons, this is surely two separate foods, and I am yotzay. If the recipient chooses to mix them together, that is his doing, but I'm already yotzay. An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, *different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 23 05:48:26 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:48:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22e901d709ea$91763780$b462a680$@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:37:09PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very > clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." > Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But > two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is > considered as two??" ... In se'if 13 he says "uba'inan shetei manos... veyotz'in be'echad". Which being darshened from the word "rei'eka" would seem to mean 1 person (getting the 2 manos) except he doesn't get to the number And se'if 15 talks about the size of a maneh, "ke'ein chatikhah hara'ui lehiskhabeid". All that aside, yes, the AhS comes down on one side. In this case, he is defending common practice against the SA se'if 4. For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying otherwise. Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:56pm -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made > a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. No, I am saying it could well be that that's the halakhah, so CYLOR. What you consider obvious doesn't seem so when you look at the sources. > I think not! > The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different > brochos, even if combined. According to the SA, the halakhah speaks of two servings. The fundamental halakhah doesn't care about "two berakhos", and according to the SA, not even whether it's two kinds of food. Giving two hamburgers may not be our minhag, but it is clear that both the SA and the Rama would say you are yotzei. (OC 695:4) The Arukh haShulchan (se'if 15) talks about the manos being generous, so you can't be yotzei giving just two kezeisim. So yes, if you give a hamburger and a bun, you could very well not be yotzei. That's exactly the logic. You say "I think not!" but why not? Do you have a maqor? That's why I would get an expert opinion before doing the same. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 14:49:44 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:49:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222224944.GB2099@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:15:34AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the > haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh > Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha > to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is > sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm > putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. The last phrase of any berakhah (that isn't just a one sentence "Barukh") is supposed to be me'ein hachasimah. But it can drift all over the place in between. Any berakhah that covers multiple topics has to be a berakhah arukhah -- barukh at beginning and last sentence; or semuchah lechaverta and thus the first barukh can be omitted. (The AhS invokes this idea to explain the structure of Birkhas haZon (the first berakhah of bentchen). The middle berakhah on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or Rosh Chodesh is apparently a berakhah arukhah hasemukhah lechaverta. Therefore, it is allowed to have multiple topics, never mind insisting it closely match the chasimah. As long as the close is me'ein hachasimah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Mon Feb 22 09:01:51 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:01:51 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 22, 2021 01:19:26 pm Message-ID: <16140349120.7Aaf7F4e.96628@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > ... I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has > free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other > way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* > b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, > some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only > by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on > only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. > > Are there any other examples of this? > There are plenty of examples of prayers that may be recited by individuals, and that may not be recited by the tzibbur. For example, suppose you have asked Sarah Pippik to marry you, and she has nodded her head and said she'll get back to you on that. Unquestionably, until you hear back from her with her answer, you are going to be inserting a private prayer three times a weekday into the benediction of Shomea` Tefillah, that she say yes to your proposal. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Xonen Hadda`ath, if you think that not marrying you indicates a failure of intelligence on her part. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Rofeh Xoley `Amo Yisrael, if you are marrying Rn. Pippik because you need a kidney transplant, and she has the same blood type as you. The point is that individuals are allowed to utter certain kinds of prayers, that the tzibbur is not allowed to say. Now, there are special laws about rain, such that, if an entire community needs rain, a tzibbur is allowed to ask for it. But that is only because our Sages have enacted laws permitting it. Otherwise it would be forbidden. Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah. Or if the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition of the `Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, unless a good strong rain would sweep the frogs back into the river where they came from. It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed to make. Unrelated to the above, in your earlier post, you mispronounced "seiruv". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 23 05:20:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:20:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? A. The Meiri (Sefer Magen Avos 23) writes that Taanis Esther is different than other communal fast days. Other communal fast days commemorate events of tragedy, while Taanis Esther is a day of celebration, for on that day, the Jews of old fasted before going to war (Mishna Berura 686:2), merited to have Hashem listen to their plea and overcame their enemies. This contrast is reflected in the following halacha: The Gemara (Megila 5a) states that when the 9th day of Av falls on Shabbos, the fast of Tisha B?av is delayed until Sunday. We do not observe the fast before Shabbos because one should postpone, rather than advance, the commemoration of tragedy. In contrast, when the 13th day of Adar falls on Shabbos, Taanis Esther is observed on the previous Thursday. We may advance the fast since it commemorates a joyous event. By the same token, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l (Halichos Shlomo, Purim 18:6) contrasts Taanis Esther with other fast days with respect to bathing and cutting hair. Although bathing is technically permitted on all fast days except Tisha B?av (Shulchan Oruch 550:1), and hair cutting is acceptable on Tzom Gedalia and Asara B?teves, some are stringent and do not bathe and take haircuts on communal fast days, in keeping with the sad character of the day . This is not the case with Taanis Esther, where everyone agrees that bathing and haircuts are permissible. Rav Zilberstein, shlita (Chashukei Chemed Megila 16b) writes that one may even listen to music. However, Rav Elyashiv, zt?l is quoted in the sefer Ashrei HaIsh (Vol. 3:41:20) as saying that it is inappropriate to listen to music. Taanis Esther is also a day of forgiveness, and music will detract from the solemnity of the day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 23 22:25:48 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 06:25:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices Message-ID: Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim. My question, almost partially addressed in the article, is assuming such a waiver is effective, is it what HKB"H wants of us? Such a waiver certainly would help the children avoid difficult issues, not just event related such as weddings, but every day issues as well. Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the waiver sending the right message? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 24 07:13:33 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:13:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 24 05:31:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:31:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? A. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim falls on erev Shabbos, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbos. (If one eats the Purim seuda later in the day, there will minimal appetite for the Shabbos meal.) The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may lechatchila postpone the seuda up until three hours before sunset. (These three hours refer to sho?os zemanios, which means the length of each hour is proportionate to the length of the day. As an example, three hours of sho?os zemanios before sunset on Purim this year in New York City will be approximately 3:00PM.) Bedieved, if unable to begin the seuda before the three-hour period, one must start the seuda before sunset, which is when Shabbos begins. However, during this three-hour time frame, only a minimal meal should be eaten (a little more than a kibaiya of challah and a small amount of meat and wine) so that one will have an appetite to eat the Friday night seuda. (See Rema 529:1 and Aruch Hashulchan 249:7) If one did not complete the Purim seuda before shkia (sunset), which is when Shabbos begins, the challah must be covered and Kiddush is recited, and then the meal continues. Hamotzi is not recited on the challah since one is in the middle of the meal (OC 271:4 and MB 18). If one drank wine during the first part of the meal, Borei Pri Hagefen is omitted during kiddush (ibid). After the seuda, one davens Kabbalas Shabbos and Maariv. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if the meal continues after sunset, Retzei is recited in Birchas Hamozon, but Al Hanissim is omitted. (One cannot recite both Retzei and Al Hanissim, as this would be contradictory. Since we recite Retzei, this indicates that Shabbos has begun, and Purim has concluded.) YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Feb 24 10:00:02 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:00:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered via Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D.BD.20687.45496306@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 12:18 PM 2/24/2021, avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org wrote: >An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the >salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single >food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, >*different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to >be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT >have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two >types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] The salad that we buy which is sold by someone in Lakewood and is made by Postiv, has the croutons in a separate plastic bag, and hence the salad and the croutons are not mixed tether, but are separate. This to me qualifies as two different foods.. >One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! I do not agree with this. The Jewish Press used to write, "Consult your local COMPETENT Orthodox rabbi." I always took this to mean that not every O rabbi is competent to answer all questions, and I do firmly believe that this is the case. For example, I have in the past had conversations with O rabbis about kashrus, and it quickly became clear that they only had "global" knowledge about hashgachos, but no detailed knowledge. A question like "Whose meat is used in such and such a product?" was met with silence. Again, not every O rabbi has the knowledge to answer all questions. How could any one man know all the nuances of the technological world we live in? Instead of CYLOR, you should write CYLCOR. YL From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 24 15:11:29 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:11:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210224231129.GG18755@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 06:25:48AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning > parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim... If the reason for aveilus running more than sheloshim is kibud (or yir'as) av va'eim rather than aveilus itself, granting them this ability would be very logical. Like doing anything else for one's parent; if they don't want it done, there is no chiyuv to do it. (For yir'ah too -- you can get reshus from a parent to sit in their seat.) To answer your question > Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they > choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand > in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the > waiver sending the right message? It depends why the parents gave them reshus. No? It could be the parent is doing the child a favor. It could be the parent believes they are better served without it. And I could picture very different answers to your questions in those two scenarios. A mother might have waved aveilus because family is important to her, and she wants her children to be able to go to the cousin's wedding that is coming up. It may be greater kibud eim to obey her accomodating going to her niece's wedding. Alternatively, mom might know her child really want to get to their friend's upcoming wedding, and doesn't want you making major sacrifices. If indeed months 2-12 are all about kibud or eimah, and the request is for the parents' sake, the greater kibud av va'eim would be not practicing aveilus. Or maybe, just going to the one wedding. Okay, we need a scenario where the motive is continuous. (The only thing that came to mind is pretty depressing: Dad got his act together, but always regretted the years he was an abusive parent. He would prefer the kapparah of a short aveilus more than a full year of the son being pushed to think about their troubled relationship.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:55:59 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:55:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: > Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many > ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon > (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only > recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? The simple answer is: Minhagim change. That's their nature. One could just as well ask why almost none of the siddurim I've seen use the halacha's text for Haneros Halalu. (It's in O"C 676. Pick your favorite rishon or acharon, and compare what they write to what you say. Cheat sheet available at https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n251.shtml#19) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 08:31:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:31:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Are you or someone you know not going to shul this Purim? (Again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note that you can pause the reading or rewind one minute. Instructions are given at the beginning of the recording. [https://groups.io/img/digest_ico_01.png] Attachments: [X] IMG-20210224-WA0008.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:41:02 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:41:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] HILCHOS PESACH FOR THE PURIM SEUDAH Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin The Rema (in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 695:2) writes that the Seudas Purim, the festive Purim meal, should commence with Divrei Torah. The Mishna Berurah (in Orach Chayim 429, seif katan 2) rules that one must begin learning about Pesach on Purim--which is exactly 30 days before Pesach. Accordingly, putting the Rema and Mishna Berurah together, it is therefore a custom to commence the Purim Seudah with a Halacha about Pesach. In this way, one also connects the Geulah of Purim to the Geulah of Pesach (see Ta?anis 29A, which states that the reason we should increase our simcha to such a great extent in Adar is because it is the commencement of both the miracles of Purim and Pesach). We provide two Halachos for you to begin: 1. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 429:1) begins Hilchos Pesach by writing that it is our Minhag to give wheat to the poor in order to help them celebrate Pesach. The Mishna Berurah (seif katan 3) notes that this Minhag dates back to the time of Chazal. 2. Rabbi Shimon Eider, Z?tl, in the Halachos of Pesach writes that in lieu of wheat, some have the custom to distribute flour or other food supplies. In our time, most communities distribute money for the poor, in order for them to purchase their needs. The leaders of our community do not tax or otherwise assess their constituents, but instead everyone is expected to give to the best of his ability. Hakhel Note: As we connect Matanos L?Evyonim to Ma?os Chitim--let us remember the Pasuk (Yeshaya 1:27): ?Tzion B?Mishpat Tipadeh V?Shaveha B?Tzedaka?--speedily and in our day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:31:53 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:31:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say Message-ID: . R' Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter wrote: > ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the > tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a > prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the 'Amidah. Or if > the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, > the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition > of the 'Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, ... > It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed > to make. Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a prohibition. To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? In any case, my original question (in the thread "Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur") was not about impromptu prayers for special events. It was about established prayers that we can find in the siddur, machzor, or elsewhere. There are many that may be said only with a minyan, and I'm wondering if there are any (beside Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah) that may be said only with*out* a minyan. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:14:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:14:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? A. The Megillah relates that the Jews fought their enemies on the 13th day of Adar. They rested and celebrated on the following day, the 14th of Adar, and that is the day that Purim is generally observed. In the capital city of Shushan there were more enemies of the Jews. The battle lasted two days and they celebrated on the 15th of Adar. Shushan was a walled city and the Rabbis instituted that Shushan and other walled cities such as Yerushalayim would celebrate Purim on the 15th. This is known as Shushan Purim. (See Aruch Hashulchan 668:2-4) The Jewish calendar is set in a manner that the 14th of Adar will never fall on Shabbos, while the 15th of Adar occasionally falls on Shabbos. Some of the mitzvos of Purim cannot be fulfilled on Shabbos, and they are observed instead on Friday and Sunday. In such instances, Purim in Yerushalayim spans three days, and that is why it is called Purim Meshulash (the three day Purim). Here is the breakdown of mitzvos for each day of Purim Meshulash: Friday: Chazal did not want the Megilah to be read on Shabbos out of concern that one might forget it is Shabbos and carry the Megillah in an area where there is no eiruv. Rather, they instituted that the Jews of Yerushalayim read the Megillh on Friday, in conformity with everyone else around the world. Chazal associated the mitzvah of Matanos L?evyonim (giving gifts to the poor) with the reading of the Megillah, so even in Yerushalayim, matanos l?evyonim is given on Friday, even though it is not yet Purim. Rav Ovadya Yosef zt?l (Yechave Daas 1:90) points out that if one has a minhag not to do melacha on Purim (and treat it like Chol Ham?oed), melacha may be performed on Friday (in Yerushalayim), since it is not actually Purim. Shabbos: The Kerias HaTorah of Purim is read on Shabbos, as well as a special Haftorah for Purim. Al Hanissim is inserted in davening and bentching. It is proper to add a special dish to the Shabbos meal in honor of Purim. Since Megillah is not read on Shabbos, it is proper to discuss the halachos of Purim to remind oneself that it is Purim day (Mishnah Berurah 688:16). Sunday: The Purim seuda takes place on Sunday and Mishloach Manos are distributed then as well. We follow the poskim who rule that Al Hanissim is not said in davening or bentching. However, since there is a minority opinion that it should be said, Rav Ovadya Yosef recommends that it be added at the end of bentching in the section of Harachaman. (Harachaman yaaseh imanu nisim v?niflaos k?mo she?asa la?avoseinu ba?yamim ha?heim ba?zman ha?zeh. Bi?yemei Mordechai?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:35:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/2/21 10:31 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar > to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a > chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big > event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's > health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many > tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When > the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the > leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? The obvious analogy is to those countries that need rain when it is not needed in Bavel, and therefore Tal Umatar is not said. The halacha is that each individual in those countries should add "Vesein Tal Umatar Livracha" in Shomea` Tefillah. However the shliach tzibur does not do so, even though each individual he is representing needs rain and did pray for it in his private tefillah. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:43:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:43:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23baca0a-f837-9cb5-c594-5a5aea4b649a@sero.name> On 25/2/21 9:14 am, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Sunday: The Purim /seuda/ takes place on Sunday and /Mishloach Manos/ > are distributed then as well. This is the opinion of the Mechaber, who is nowadays considered the "Mara De'asra" of the whole Eretz Yisrael. But in his day he was not so considered. Yerushalayim had its own rav, the Ralbach, who holds differently; he holds that Seudas Purim and Mishloach Manos should be performed on Shabbos, and thus there is only a 2-day Purim, not 3 days. I assume that in his day the Sefardi community of Yerushalayim followed his psak and not that of the Mechaber in Tzefas. I wonder at what point the community practice changed to that of the Mechaber, and whether this was influenced by the arrival of new immigrants who challenged the existing minhag based on what is written in the Shulchan Aruch. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 14:08:50 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:08:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60ec2494-9da8-8764-525b-2d8fda20d3f3@sero.name> See Malbim, who sees the whole story as a political struggle between Achashverosh and the political establishment. Bavel had been a constitutional monarchy, its kinds bound by the law, and remained so after the Persian kings conquered it. But Achashverosh, having usurped the throne, was not content with this and wanted to change it to an absolute monarchy, where the law is subject to the king, and all the country's wealth is his to spend as he pleases. So he unilaterally moved the capital to Shushan, which had never been an important city before, and then started spending untold fortunes on an endless party, at which his own appointees, servants, and armies were honored ahead of the statesmen and ministers who had been there before him. He was rubbing their faces in the new reality. Then, once he felt that point had been made, he punctuated it by throwing a party for all the commoners whose only yichus was that they happened to live in his new capital city, and at the peak of this party he summoned Vashti, the princess of the ancien regime, to humiliate her and show that she is subject to his whims, because his authority does not derive from her but from his own might. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 07:51:08 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:51:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been > "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber > pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying > otherwise. > Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. I'd like to suggest, aliba d'RMB, how this development (from "two manos" to "two minim") might have occurred. (If he wrote this in his posts, then apologize for not seeing it.) But - today being National V'nahapoch Hu Day - I'll begin at the end of the story. There is a well-known practice nowadays (I will not call it a minhag, and AFAIK not a single posek anywhere requires it) that one's basic "two manos" should be of food that have different brachos. The reason for this (in my eyes, quite obviously) is because of what counts as two "minim". Is a chicken wing and a leg two minim or that same min? What of a cookie and a donut? White wine and red? Two different white wines? Choosing foods of different bracha removes the confusion. Similarly, I can very easily imagine confusion over how large a "maneh" must be. Imagine one piece of roast, and another piece of roast. That could be two portions for an ani, or a half-portion for a teenager. So it evolved into "two minim", which simplified things greatly. Just a guess, of course. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 08:24:12 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:24:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Message-ID: . [[[ I received this a few minutes ago, in an email from a friend. I cannot verify whether it is actually from the RCBC or not, but I'd like to think it is. Just to remind everyone, I am proud to have been originally a resident of Bergen County, whose rabbis almost a year ago had the courage to shut down all the shuls even before the government required them to do so. - Akiva ]]] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Thursday, February 25, 2021 Dear Friends, In response to our recent letter about Purim and Pesach during the pandemic, many of you have asked for more detailed guidelines about how to safely fulfill the various mitzvos of Purim this year. Please see below for additional parameters, and please direct any questions to your local Orthodox rabbi in a masked, socially distanced fashion. We empathize with the general feelings of ?Covid-19 fatigue.? However, we have been informed that a new, more virulent *Galitzianer strain* has been spreading in our community. As such, this is not the time to let our guard down. *Kriyas Hamegillah* Every Jew is obligated to hear the megillah twice on Purim, but safety concerns must take precedence. We recommend that all megillah readings be done in less than 15 minutes, to stay below the CDC time frame for Covid-19 exposure. As breathing is dangerous for everyone, instead of just reading the ten sons of Haman in one breath, the baal korei should attempt to read the entire megillah in one breath. If he must take a breath during the reading, a plastic supermarket bag should be placed over his head. Care should be taken to use one of the thick kosher supermarket bags, not those thin ones from CVS. In addition, while normally a ?hei degusha? is aspirated in words like ?lah? and ?bah,? aspirating is considered a sakanas nefashos and therefore should be avoided, as bedieved the reading is kosher without such aspirated letters. Similarly, the letter ?pei? should be replaced with the softer ?fei? if the meaning of the word is not changed. Perhaps this is why Hashem in His infinite wisdom named the holiday Furim instead of Purim (see Esther 9:26). Finally, we are all familiar with the minhag to read pesukim relating to a threat of death for the Jewish people in Eicha trop. This year many more pesukim refer to deadly threats, such as ?leich kenos es kol hayehudim? (Esther 4:16) and ?vayikahalu hayehudim? (Esther 9:15). To ensure that people do not follow these examples and gather in groups, these pesukim should also be read in Eicha trop. If it does not impede one?s ability to finish reading in less than 15 minutes, one may choose to read the entire megillah in Eicha trop, so as to diminish any feelings of mirth that may lead to a momentary lapse in Covid-19 precautions, chas v?shalom *Matanos L?Evyonim* While giving money to the poor is an important part of the holiday, extreme care must be taken to not infect those who we are trying to help. While paper money is normally handed to the poor on Purim, this will necessitate the giver coming too close to the receiver, thus putting him or her in grave danger. It is also difficult to properly sanitize paper bills with Purell. Therefore, it is recommended to pre-sanitize coins and then throw them at the poor from a distance of at least six feet. *Mishloach Manos* Our usual practice of bringing food to others? homes should be avoided this year, as standing outside someone?s door may inadvertently lead to entering their house. Many of you have asked whether one who pays taxes which are then used to provide free boxes of food to the members of our community can consider this their mishloach manos. Since the distribution of these food boxes is done in a contactless manner, this is an ideal way to fulfill the mitzvah. Those who have not reported sufficient income to require paying taxes should give some money to a wealthier neighbor and thus be considered a meshutaf (partner) in his tax payments. *Seuda* The Purim seuda is usually a festive gathering and is thus the most challenging mitzvah to fulfill this year. In addition, while drinking alcohol is always discouraged, especially on Purim, it is even more inadvisable this year as it would require removing one?s mask. There is a common misconception that the mitzvah of simcha on Purim requires one to be happy the entire day. However, according to most rishonim, the shiur of simcha only requires being happy for a toch kedei dibur - about 3.4 seconds, or 4.2 seconds according to the Chazon Ish. While it is so hard for us to find any joy these days, one can read a posuk of the Torah for a few seconds (quietly, alone, and masked) and thus fulfill the mitzvah of simcha as required on Purim. Please make sure to finish being happy by chatzos so as to have time to prepare for another lonely shabbos. *Lifnim Mishuras Hadin* While none of these restrictions are necessary based on CDC or state guidelines, it is critical that we continue to signal to the world how much more virtuous we are than our ?frummer? brothers and sisters in Passaic, Lakewood, and the Five Towns. We therefore urge everyone to get at least three shots of the vaccine, stay at least eight feet apart, and wear at least two masks (unless that becomes commonplace, in which case we should wear a minimum of three masks). Wishing everyone a safe, meaningful, and safe Purim. The Rabbinical Council of Bergen County -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Feb 28 14:29:21 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 22:29:21 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 25, 2021 12:00:04 pm Message-ID: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the >> tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a >> prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah.... >> > > Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you > have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a > prohibition. > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, > similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh > Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The > community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come > and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, > many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd > unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites > Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either > in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? > This is not going to be a satisfactory answer, but one reason for thinking that it cannot be done, is that it is not done. The scenario that you described above happens frequently: the community arranges a big event, many Psalms are recited, many speeches are given, there is communal prayer -- and the shliax tzibbur adds nothing to the repetition of the `Amida. I have seen it happen, you have seen it happen. This is not an entirely satisfactory answer, because there are plenty of explicitly permitted practices, that are not practiced. Thus, that something is not done, does not necessarily imply that it cannot be done. For example, there is an undisputed halakha of "pores mappah umqaddesh", which would have been the ideal way to fulfil the mitzva of s`udath Purim last week, but I have never seen it done, or ever heard of it done, outside of Jerusalem, which is allowed to have her own customs. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim without wine, early in the day, is not the ideal way of fulfilling the mitzva. The other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise it is theft, and it is a serious sin. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim after working hours is not permitted on a Friday, even if you live in the Diego Ramirez Islands where sunset is late, unless you are pores mappah umqaddesh, because otherwise you are having your s`udath Purim too close to your s`udath Shabbath. And yet, I have never heard of anyone doing it, outside of Jerusalem. So, the fact that something is never done -- even when you think that it would and should be done, if it were permissible -- does not necessary mean that it is not permissible. So, let us look for an answer in the Shulxan `Arukh. Orax Xayyim 119:1 is the first place where it explicitly says that an individual (even when not offering a tefillath n'dava, vide infra) is allowed to insert personal requests in the silent `Amida, although there are earlier allusions to this halakha in 90:15 and 101:4. The halakha makes a point of mentioning, incidentally, that you must phrase your request in the singular, because it is a personal request. Now, let us assume, arguendo, that the shliax tzibbur is permitted to insert communal requests, in the repetition of the `Amida. One would think, that just as there is a halakha in 119:1 explicitly permitting an individual to do such a thing, there would be a parallel halakha a few simanim later, permitting the shliax tzibbur to do such a thing, but there is no such a halakha. Now, of course, the absence of a halakha permitting something does not, in general, mean that it is forbidden; but the author of the Shulxan `Arukh did think, for some reason, that there was a need, in this case, for a halakha permitting it to an individual; I would expect, therefore, that for the same reason -- whatever that reason might be -- there would be a need for a parallel halakha permitting it to the shliax tzibbur, if it were permitted. Moreover, the halakha in 107:2 is that an individual who offers an entirely voluntary prayer, which we call a tefillath n'dava, is obliged to add a personal request in his or her `Amida; and I assume that this is the reason why you are not allowed to offer a tefillath n'dava on Shabbath or Yom Tov, because you are not allowed to add personal requests to the `Amida on Shabbath or Yom Tov. 107:3 states that the tzibbur is not allowed -- is never allowed -- to offer a tefillath n'dava, and I assume that it is for the same reason, that the tzibbur is not allowed to add additional requests to the `Amida. A more thorough answer would discuss other sources -- or at least the Beyth Yosef, since I am making inferences from what is not mentioned in the Shulxan `Arukh -- but I presently lack the time (and perhaps the skill, although that may just be my saintly modesty speaking), to put any more time into a more thorough and better-researched answer. Hopefully, someone who has time to research this question more properly will find it interesting -- because I think it is -- and continue the conversation. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 1 05:25:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:25:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? A. The answer to this question emerges from an unusual story in the Gemarah. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 102b) relates that Rav Ashi referred to the evil King Menashe in a dishonorable way. That night, King Menashe appeared to Rav Ashi in a dream and quizzed him about which part of the bread must one eat first. Rav Ashi did not know the answer and King Menashe taught him that we must begin eating from the area that was baked first. Rav Ashi accepted this ruling and taught this halacha the next morning ?in the name of our teacher, King Menashe?. The Mishnah Berurah (167:1) explains that we honor the beracha by taking the first bite from the part of the bread that was most baked. This halacha is codified in Shulchan Aruch (OC 167:1). The Rema writes that since it is not clear which part of our bread bakes first, we should cut a piece from the crusty end of the loaf that contains both the top and the bottom and this piece should be eaten first. Many Kabalistic explanations are given as to the significance of this halacha, and why it was specifically taught by King Menashe. The Ben Ish Chai (Parshas Emor 1:1) writes that this is an absolute obligation. Only if one is elderly and unable to chew the crust may he begin eating the soft center. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 06:29:38 2021 From: allan.engel at gmail.com (allan.engel at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 14:29:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: The concept of employed people taking days off work for holidays does exist. On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 at 14:07, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: The > other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before > or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or > self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise > it is theft, and it is a serious sin. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 2 22:39:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 06:39:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kupat tzedaka Message-ID: I am learning the AH"S hilchot tzedaka and am struck by the poverty in the communities he relates to. This reminded me of imi morati ZL""HH relating her father's description of the grinding poverty in the shtetl. (lots of sociological history in halacha). Of particular interest was his description of how the universal practice of a single communal kupat tzedaka came to an end. Sometimes reality trumps "halacha" and maybe the mimetic tradition fails to restart in cases it should. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 05:24:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:24:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll. Is it preferable for me to recite Hamotzi right away, to minimize the hefsek (delay) between washing and Hamotzi, or should I wait until I return to my table so I can recite Hamotzi on a whole loaf of bread? A. First, let's review the general halochos of hefsek between netilas yadayim and Hamotzi. Shulchan Aruch (OC 166:1) quotes a dispute whether one is required to recite Hamotzi immediately after washing netilas yadayim, or is it not necessary. Because of the uncertainty, the Shulchan Aruch concludes that it is best not to delay. The Rema adds that if one waited between drying their hands and reciting Hamotzi longer than the time it takes to walk 22 amos (approximately 10 seconds), it is considered a hefsek. Nonetheless, the Mishnah Berurah (ibid s?k 6) writes that although it is preferable to make Hamotzi immediately after netilas yadayim, if a significant break did occur, it is not necessary to wash again. However, Igeros Moshe (OC 2:48) notes that speaking between washing and Hamotzi is a more significant hefsek and would necessitate netilas yadayim and a new bracha (unless what was spoken related to the meal). Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 13:35:15 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 21:35:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE Message-ID: The following is from the article The Legacy of RSRH, ZT"L that appears in the Sefer Selected Writings by Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L. Rav Hirsch is usually accepted as the exponent of the Torah im Derech Eretz philosophy. This principle is explained by his grandson, Dr. Isaac Breuer, as follows: "He was strictly opposed to compromise or reconciliation, or even a synthesis: he demanded full and uncompromising rulership of the Torah. The Torah cannot endure co-rulership, far less tolerate it. As a true revolutionary he seized the liberalistic individual, the liberalistic, humanitarian ideal, liberalistic capitalism, and the human intellect, celebrating orgies in the liberalistic science, and dragged them as "circumstances", in the narrowest sense of the word, to the flaming fire of the Torah to be purified or, if need be, to be consumed. As a true revolutionary he solved the unbearable tension between the Torah and the new era which had dawned over the Jews of Western Europe. He invaded the new era with the weapons of the Torah, analyzed and dissected it down to its last ingredients, and then shaped and reformed it until it could be placed at the feet of the Torah, as new nourishment for the Divine fire. The proclamation of the rulership of the Torah over the new era was the historic achievement of Hirsch's life for his own contemporaries." -- ("Hirsch as a Guide to Jewish History'' in Fundamentals of Judaism, published by Feldheim, 1949.) Unfortunately, the principle of Torah im Derech Eretz is grossly misunderstood by our contemporary Jewish orthodoxy. It does not mean that one who is a full-fledged citizen of hedonistic America and at the same time keeps the laws of the Torah, is a follower of Torah im Derech Eretz. Not to violate the laws of the Torah certainly deserves praise and recognition but it is not an embodiment of the Hirschian philosophy. Likewise, an academy dedicated to the study of science and philosophy, not in order to serve the understanding of Torah or to further the aims of the Torah but as the independent search by the human intellect to understand and control the world around -- even when added to a department of profound and very scholarly Torah studies -this is not an outgrowth of the Torah im Derech Eretz Weltanschauung of Samson Raphael Hirsch. Also, a secular university in Israel, albeit under skullcap auspices, complete with Judaic studies, is extremely remote from a Torah im Derech Eretz school even if it has established a "Samson Raphael Hirsch chair" as part of its academic set-up, something which almost borders on blasphemy. The Orthodox professional who is not regularly "koveah ittim batorah", or otherwise lacks in the performance of mitzvohs, or who is immodest in dress or behavior, is not a follower of Samson Raphael Hirsch. From all of Hirsch's prolific writings, it becomes evident that his main concern was to establish the majesty of the Divine Word and the role of the Divine Will as revealed in the Torah, to dominate all the highways and by-ways of mundane life. Those who abuse Torah im Derech Eretz as a "hetter" to lead a life of easygoing and lenient "Yiddishkeit" or those who consider the Hirschian idea as a compromise between the right and the left in Jewish thinking have distorted the meaning of the principle as laid down in the Mishne, Avos, Perek 2, 2: "Beautiful is the study of Torah combined with Derech Eretz for the effort to attain both makes one forget to commit sins". The Torah is not a mere branch of human knowledge, one discipline amongst many others, but rather must the Torah dominate all secular knowledge and all worldly activities. Equally so, the community of Israel, Klal Yisroel, as well as all Kd1il!os and organized communities, be they local or international -- which are all segments of Klal Yisroel -- are not supposed to be mere branches of a neutral Israel but are to be totally independent. The Torah community is not beholden to any non-Torah community and it. does not even recognize its authenticity. This is the essence of the Hirschian Austritt (separation) ideology. The so ailed "Austritt" is the militant vigilance of the conscientious Jew defending the Torah community against all encroachments from the non-Torah powers that be. The "AustrittL" and Torah im Derech Eretz go hand in hand, they form "one package", so to speak, and both these aspects of Hirschian thought have one aim: the total domination of Torah over all thinking and actions of individual and national life. He who separates the rule of the Torah over all facets of the communal life of Kial Yisroel from the rule of the Torah over all human knowledge, in short, he who separates the "Austritt" from Torah im Derech Eretz, renders a disservice to both. Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. It. is none of these. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 3 15:32:08 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:32:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210303233207.GF29384@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 03, 2021 at 01:24:19PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 4 05:52:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:52:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. ---------------------------------- Interesting - You had me till here -I read through the whole piece carefully and it's pretty much what I heard from my rebbeim (and some secular studies teachers)at MTA - not always carried out but certainly the aspiration (and what I've tried to live up to) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Mar 4 04:28:35 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 07:28:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha References: Message-ID: At 06:32 PM 3/3/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up > >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... > > >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal > >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, > >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which > >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes > >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). > >Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to >the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, >wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. > >That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the >washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 4 15:21:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 18:21:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 04, 2021 at 07:28:35AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if > this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, > then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make > Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that bite? Tir'u baTov! -Micha From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 10:40:19 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:40:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . Regarding the seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach - I remember many conversations in years past about making rolls from matza meal to use for these seudos, and we discussed various recipes and what bracha would be said, and whether or not they are allowed on Erev Pesach. Have we ever discussed making a matza meal (or matza farfel) *kugel*? It occurred to me that this would be a very simple solution (for those who eat gebroks, obviously), at least for an early afternoon Seudah Shlishis. A similar idea would be if a cholent could have enough matza in it that its bracha is mezonos. I could raise various issues and questions, but I think the best first step is to ask whether we've already covered this. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Mar 5 07:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 10:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:21 PM 3/4/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a >precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that >bite? You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, no matter what you make it on. YL From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 5 13:35:55 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > no matter what you make it on. And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From larry62341 at optonline.net Sat Mar 6 16:46:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 19:46:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:35 PM 3/5/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > > no matter what you make it on. > >And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > >The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station >to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. > >Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you >are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference >for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. >>Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their >>dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and >>then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. >>According to you it would be preferable to have lechem Mishneh >>next to the sink in the kitchen and make Hamotzi there, since this >>would avoid " an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the >>bread." Yet no one I know makes Hamotzi at the sink in the >>kitchen. Everyone who does not have a sink in their dining room, >>wahses in the kitchen and then walks into the dining room, sits >>down, and then makes Hamotzit. This is clearly the preferable way >>to do things. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 7 08:15:03 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:15:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 07:46:47PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: >> And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >> As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their > dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and > then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi on a shaleim at the washing station. This situation differs from what I wrote in two ways: 1- First, you set up a situation where the pause is far less avoidable. Not the "unnecessary" pause of returning to your table from the washing station when the caterer put bread cubes there to make HaMotzi on which you choose not to use in order to make the berakhah on a shaleim. Besides, sometimes, people can't even know which seat they want until more people entered, they don't want a long line at the washing station and want to wash before the crowd, so they are hunting for a spot after HaMotzi. 2- When you wash for HaMotzi on Shabbos, everyone is up to the same part of the meal. People know that others are between washing and HaMotzi. People at a simchah have a wide variety of start times. The odds that you are greeted and might reply, or they might not understand why you aren't replying, are significant. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of http://www.aishdas.org/asp heights as long as he works his wings. Author: Widen Your Tent But if he relaxes them for but one minute, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF he plummets downward. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 08:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 11:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a >piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay >at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi >on a shaleim at the washing station. Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should preferably be made sitting not standing. At the washing station you are standing, At your table you are presumably sitting. This is an important difference. Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 10:16:54 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 13:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sitting for Hamotzi Message-ID: <3D.0D.01388.9E815406@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/85596/need-to-sit-for-hamotzi Is there an obligation or a custom to sit down while saying hamotzi? What about for the other before blessings (borei minei mezonot, borei pri adamah, borei pri ha'etz, and shehakol nihiye bidvaro)? 1 Answer The Pri Megadim (opening to Brachos, 18) specifically states that there is no obligation to sit down for the Birchos HaNehenin (including the Hamotzi) However, Chazal (Gitin p. 70) and so in the Rambam (Deios chapter 4 Halacha 3) state that for good health and Derech Eretz one should eat while sitting. And since bread is being eaten while seated, as stated in the Mor Vektzia (mark 8) that "all things that are being done standing, the blessing should also be done standing. But things done while sitting, it is not proper to bless while standing, as in Birchas Hanehenin, but Bediavad Yatza" YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 8 00:54:46 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 08:54:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha Message-ID: I can not now locate the most recent thread about the Meshech Chochma's shita on kedusha, can't get the archive search to work, but IIRC R'MB said the MC holds consistently that kedusha is never inherent to an object, it is an outcome of Jewish input. It always requires human involvement. So when my pre-hesder son came home from a few days sampling the avira ruchani at Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavneh brandishing a source sheet from a shuir on cheit ha'egel, I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way. If we mess up our attitude to the place or object in question, the kedusha is removed. Seems clear from his language that he's saying the kedusha does not originate in our actions. It always originates with Hashem for the benefit of our relationship with him, and lasts only as long as that is maintained and as long as it serves that purpose. So WRT to the first luchos - 'Ein bahem kedusha mi'tzad atzmam. Rak bishvilchem she'atem shomrim osam'. If we damage the relationship mi'meila no more kedusha, We can't create kedusha except so far as the Torah specifies, ie still originating in Hashem's tzivui, but we can destroy it. This, I think, is a far less radical take on kedusha and answers my questions as to how the MC's model of kedusha applies to kohanim and to time. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:15:24 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210308181520.GA21061@aishdas.org> On Sun, Mar 07, 2021 at 11:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should > preferably be made sitting not standing... This was the main point of the OU Halakhah Yomis you started the conversation with: > Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is > preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of > reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an > overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and > 27). The author, you will note, didn't think that standing vs. sitting was an issue. Just time delay vs having a shaleim. I replied that given those two choices, you could take a roll off the table you're seated at with you to the washing stationg. (In terms of this din, it can equally be a roll from another table. But I would think it's wrong to risk that the table you take from doesn't have enough for the people seated there.) If you want to discuss standing, that's an interesting question. Why didn't the author of the OU page not consider making HaMotzi while sitting a factor to weigh? > Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting > which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting > denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. Actually, sitting for Havdalah is a Gra (Maaseh Rav) / Brisk style innovation. Minhag Ashkenaz was to stand (Rama OC 296:6). The reason why this was a much more common minhag than standing for Qiddush is because the meal is eaten sitting. But otherwise, the Kol Bo (41) said we would stand for both, as a show of kavod for the Shabbos Malka. Just as he has us stand for Havdalah. But back to the question of sitting... I don't think the need for qevi'us is invoked for the berakhah itself, but for being yotzei another. (E.g. Tosafos Berakhos 34a, "ho'il". In contrast, the SA OC 167:13 says you can be yotzei others even if everyone is standing). See AhS OC 296:17. He quotes the aforementioned Tosafos saying that since people prepare themselves for Havdalah, there is qevi'us even when standing. And one should stand as the king (King?, or or Who is the Shabbos Malka?) departs. (Except, he notes, according to the Gra.) So, if everyone is making their own HaMotzi at the wedding, sitting vs standing is a non-issue. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You are not a human being in search http://www.aishdas.org/asp of a spiritual experience. You are a Author: Widen Your Tent spiritual being immersed in a human - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:32:15 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:32:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 8 07:24:20 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:24:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] hashgacha pratis Message-ID: <150501d7142f$1caeb8b0$560c2a10$@touchlogic.com> The question (machlokes) if a person's free will allows them to act independently/against Hashems HP has been discussed here many times. I found the following post to be a very insightful and practical nafaka mina between those opinions http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2021/03/rape-does-g-d-want-someone-to-be-raped.html#disqus_thread A young lady once came to me for a theological consultation. This poised cheerful woman told me that when she was 10 she had been raped by two young yeshiva students at a religious summer camp. As a result of this incident she went into severe depression, became suicidal, and was finally placed in a mental hospital for an extended time. She said that baruch hashem, she had recovered and was no longer depressed or obsessed with revenge. Her visit was precipitated by having just seen her assailants walking down the street in Geula in Jerusalem with their wives and children -- as if they had never done anything evil. She said there was only one issue left from her experience which she couldn't come to grips with -- Why did G-d want her to be raped?" All the rabbis she had consulted with told her that it was G-d's will and that while they couldn't explain it that it must have been good and necessary. She just had to accept it as G-d's will. Her problem was that she couldn't accept that she worshipped a G-d that wanted this horrible thing to happen. I answered her that she was being told the dominant Chassidic/kabbalistic view. However I told her that [other] the Rishonim had a different view, i.e., that it is possible for a man to choose to hurt another -- even though G-d doesn't want it to happen. That she will be compensated in the Next World for her suffering but that G-d didn't cause it to happen. She was able to accept that view. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 9 10:22:59 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 13:22:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 9 03:20:10 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:20:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> References: , <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Can't see your take on this in his words. He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Further on in the words I quoted in the last email, the word 'bishvilchem' is vital. It's for 'for you', that's quite different to being 'from you' , ie me'itchem or some similar term. And he uses the term bishvilchem twice twice in that passage. A bit further again: 'ki ein shum kedusha v'inyan eloki klal biladei metzius haBoreh yisbarach shemo'. No reference to our role in maintaining kedusha there. And more broadly, his whole thesis revolves around the misunderstanding that kedusha can be a feature of something in the world independent of ratzon Hashem. So Moshe smashed the luchos to show the people how 'they hadn't achieved the goal of emuna in Hashem and his Torah hatehora'. That is, they had to realise that even the luchos were only kadosh because HKBH willed it. I'm part paraphrasing that section of course but,I think, accurately. It's true, he does also make clear that kedusha is depedant on us. But that's because without us it's meaningless, not because it originates with is. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 08 March 2021 06:32 To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Cc: Ben Bradley Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 9 08:54:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:54:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? Message-ID: From https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/ [https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/%22https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/907310658.webp?mw=500&mh=282%22] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? ? Shulchanaruchharav.com Is one required to stand when making Kiddush? Night Kiddush: [1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush. However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit. [ From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas ... shulchanaruchharav.com Night Kiddush:[1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush.[2] However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit.[3] [>From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.[4]] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas Vayechulu, although they slightly lift their bodies when saying the first words of Yom Hashishi Vayechulu Hashamayim.[5] [The above is all in accordance to Halacha, however, according to Kaballah, Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position.[6] Practically, the Chabad custom is to stand for the night Kiddush by all times, whether on Shabbos or Yom Tov.[7] So is also the Sefaradi custom, to stand for the night Kiddush[8] and so is the custom of some Gedolei Ashkenaz.[9] Other Gedolei Yisrael of Ashkenaz, however, retain the custom to sit while saying Kiddush.[10]] Day Kiddush: Whether one should stand or sit for the day Kiddush follows the same laws as the night Kiddush, of which we ruled that from the letter of the law one may choose to sit or stand, although it is better to sit and that so is the custom.[11] However, according to the ruling of Kabala, it is debated if the day Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position just as the night Kiddush, or if it is to be recited sitting.[12] Practically, many of those who are accustomed to stand for the night Kiddush are accustomed to sit for the day Kiddush.[13] Regarding the Chabad custom for the day Kiddush, there is no clear Chabad custom in this matter [as brought below] and whatever one chooses to do by the day Kiddush he has upon what to rely. Drinking the wine:[14] Even those who are accustomed to reciting Kiddush standing, are to drink the wine after Kiddush only after they sit.[15] [Nonetheless, some are lenient to drink the wine even while standing.[16]] Summary: >From the letter of the law, Kiddush can be said in either a sitting or standing position, and each one contains advantages over the other. Practically, different customs exist regarding if Kiddush is to be said sitting or standing, and each community is to follow their custom. Sefaradim stand for the night Kiddush but sit for the day Kiddush. Amongst Ashkenazim, some sit and others stand for both the night and day Kiddush. The Chabad custom is to recite the night Kiddush standing, although regarding the day Kiddush there is no clear custom. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 10 02:10:39 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:10:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> , <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: I'm stymied at this point by not being able to find the original posts we're referring to. But you state 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over' I think the temporary kedusha of Har Sinai is at least as consistent with the first approach as the second. Har Sinai had kedusha due to its role Hashem giving the Torah. Ma'amad finishes, kedusha ceases. At least as much emphasis on giver as receiver. I still think Shabbos is the proof. It's kadosh because Hashem wills it, period. Its kedusha is for us, to be sure, but our failure to keep it doesn't impact its kedusha. It remains kadosh regardless of our chillul. When it comes to kedusha of places and things, our reponse affects it because it's in our physical domain. Time is not in our domain, we live in it not vice versa, so we can't affect its kedusha. But there's only one overarching model of kedusha, and the principle gorem is Hashem, not us. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 09 March 2021 06:22 To: Ben Bradley Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Thu Mar 11 04:55:54 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 07:55:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah Message-ID: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> See https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/pesach/app/371/a-guide-to- erev-shabbos-that-occurs-on-pesach/ He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah 'Because the bracha on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use rolls for lechem mishneh' What dispute is he referring to? If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. Mordechai cohen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 11 13:17:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 16:17:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah In-Reply-To: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> References: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: <617710ea-0a5a-86a1-c525-a2d8519c63e8@sero.name> On 11/3/21 7:55 am, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah ?Because > the /bracha/?on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use > rolls for /lechem mishneh/? > > What dispute is he referring to? > > If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. > Only if you eat a shiur, which according to some opinions is 4 eggs if you are satisfied from the meal (which I assume you would be). Still, that's not an impossibly huge amount; why not just tell people that they have to eat that much egg matzah? (If you're not satisfied from the meal then the opinions range from 6 eggs to half an issaron, which is 21.6 eggs. Though presumably you'll be satisfied long before then. But in that case the eitza is simply to eat another potato!) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 12 09:19:39 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:19:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] THE HESEIBA VIDEO! Message-ID: HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, explains that Heseiba is not intended to be an act of contortion, but a comfortable way to eat in a reclined fashion, as if one is on a short bed. By clicking here, we present a video of HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, demonstrating how Heseiba should be done YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Sat Mar 13 10:19:59 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 18:19:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Shabbat Goes into Yom Tov In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone seen a discussion of davening Ma'ariv for Yom Tov/Motsa"sh early when Shabbat goes into Yom Tov (e.g. Seder Night) - including the recitation of Va-Todi'einu Shavu'ah Tov and Chodesh Tov Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 10:37:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:37:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: The CRC sent out an email saying that soft matzah is not acceptable for Ashkenazim. The person who knows a great deal about soft matzah is Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky. A google search for Zivotofsky soft matza yields * The Halachic Acceptability of Soft Matzah halachicadventures.com ? 09 of Soft Matzah Rabbi Dr. Ari Z Zivotofsky Dr. Ari Greenspan Introduction The Torah (Shmot 12:18) commands all Jews, men and women alike, to eat matzah on the ?rst night of Pesach; yet nowhere does it explain how to make this required product or how it should look. For most Jews today, matzah is a thin, * The Thick and Thin of the History of Matzah www.hakirah.org ? Vol17Zivotofsky Ari Zivotofsky, Ph.D., is a rabbi and shoh?etand teaches in the Bar Ilan University brain science program. Together they have been researching mesorah, history and halakhah from Jewish communities around the world for over 30 years. They write extensively and lecture worldwide. * Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky www.torahinmotion.org ? sites ? default Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? and more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 06:12:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 13:12:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? A. Ordinarily, after reciting a brocha on food, one may not speak until the beracha takes affect by swallowing a small bite of food. If one spoke before eating, the beracha is invalidated because of the hefsek (interruption) and must be repeated. While this is true for all foods, bread has a unique status. The Mishnah Berurah (167:35) writes that lichatchila (preferably), one should not talk until a kezayis (half the size of an egg) of bread is swallowed. However, if there is a pressing matter, one may converse after swallowing any amount. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if one spoke while chewing on the bread before swallowing, he is uncertain whether it is a beracha livatala (a blessing recited in vain) and perhaps the beracha would need to be repeated. Therefore, this should be avoided. However, the Chayei Adam writes that if a person swallowed some of the taste of the bread while chewing (even if not the actual bread itself), a new beracha is not said. In all cases, one should make an effort to swallow a kezayis of bread before talking. In the next Halacha Yomis we will discuss why bread is different than other foods. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:29:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:29:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315202916.GA25399@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 04:47:11PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the > very first thing we say after benching. [Shefokh chamsekha...] > Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who > "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name"... Thinking "out loud": A polytheist could know there is a Creator, but call on someone else. Or henotheists. Perhaps RSRH believes such people are more likely to be in the opposition, rather than ignorant. And since we switch from amim to mamlakhos, we are switching from peoples to countries, entities with militaries. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:54:45 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:54:45 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: <20210315205445.GC25399@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 03, 2021 at 01:02:59PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that > the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only > give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. Rabbi Yehudah, who authored an earlier version of the three berakhos (goy, bur, ishah) and the rebbe of R Meir who wrote our version says they are "who didn't make me" someone with fewer mitzvos. (Y-mi Berakhos vilna ed. 63b) And the chiyuvim and issurim are there whether or not one lives up to them. Maybe RMA is saying "she'asani Yisrael" would only be a berakhah if a person is on the tzaddiq side of the beinoni line? The Taz has an interesting argument (OC 46:4). He says that if the berakhos were framed as "she'asani", a person might think that nakhriim, slaves or women are less important creations. Rather, we say that while having been created a woman would have been a blessing, I thank the RBSO that I personally was given the role that has even yet more mitzvos than that! So, if RNA wants to build on the Taz, he could be saying the berakhah is thanking G-d for not only creating me with the opportunities to fulfill mitzvos of an X, but even more. On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 07:39:20PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure I understand. Aren't we taught that a Yisrael, even one > who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth > no matter what we do. The way I spun RNAlpert's idea in reply to RJR's post, I avoid this question. Yes, the person remains a Yisrael. But a sinful Yisrael. Like we tell the prospective geir: Why not remain a non-Jew and earn a lichtiger gan eden without all those duties and prohibitions? In any case, there is also the difference between Am Yisrael and Adas Yisrael. "Yisrael, af al pi shechata, Yisrael hu" refers to qedushas Am Yisrael. What RYBS calls the qedushah of the community of fate. But someone who isn't giving the eidus isn't a member of Adas Yisrael; they aren't participating in the qedushah of the community of destiny. The latter is used in the mishnah "Kol Yisrael yeish lahem cheileq le'olam haba" followed by the list of koferim, minim, apiqorsim and mumarim who don't. Because it is specifically all of Adas Yisrael who have a cheileq` RNAlpert could have meant that the berakhah "shelo asani Yisrael" would have meant "Adas Yisrael". But I like my first suggested peshat more. Feels more like something he actually would have said. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:33:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:33:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315213314.GC3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 06:39:57AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor > balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth > floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, > or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying > it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and > Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain > reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, > halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? One is not chayav for killing a tereifah or speeding up the death of a goseis. But it's still retzichah. So, just to get the post more attention, here is my guess: Shimon is oveir retzichah either way. The only question is punishability. Since lemafreia we know that Re'uvein wasn't omeid lamus, one would have said that Shimon's violation is punishable. Except that you set up a situation in which Shimon couldn't have been acting bemeizid and with hasra'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:28:05 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:28:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315212805.GB3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 10:31:53PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax > tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's > health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? I thought "kol hameshaneh mimatbeia shetav'u chakhamim eino ela to'eh" refers to making it a norm. But the similarly phrased "... bibrakhos, lo yatza yedei chovaso", about the chasimah or whether it's a berakhah arukhah, is even once. In personal baqashos... It is one thing to make a tefillah for cholim in a time of need. But one isn't supposed to be inserting the Yehi Ratzon into EVERY Refa'einu for months or years on end. Here, IMHO the justification would be similar to that of adding baqashos to Sh"E during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah. "Zokhreinu lechaim", "Mi Khamokha", etc... Not the chasimos, which aren't baqashos but special seasonal matbeios. Which the Sha"tz says too. So, I would think the Chazan could / should say something in Refa'einu. But my 2 week search for meqoros turned up empty. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:13:38 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:13:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315211338.GA3647@aishdas.org> We discussed this topic around 15 years ago. I ended up asking R Herschel Schachter. He brought proof from the Rama that Ashkenazim weren't making cracker-like matzos in his day. So of course the concept isn't a problem. (That said, I opened the question asking about a specific bakery which had just started taking on-line orders. So RHS reminded me that he hasn't looked at that bakery. While he can say the idea has no problems, he had no idea if the hekhsher checking the implementation is reliable.) You may recall that one of our more active members at the time was making wrap- or more accurately tortilla-like matzos. (Wraps usually contain yeast, and tortillas usually don't.) So the discussion got quite lively. I learned something else interesting in that discussion. Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A person lives with himself for seventy years, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and after it is all over, he still does not Author: Widen Your Tent know himself. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 15:07:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:07:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210315220748.GD3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10:39AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is > the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those > mitzvos? I think > ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem > raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah > kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Yes, this requires that the Borei actually commands them. But it's not quite what I would consider a partnership. G-d "participates" in the sense that according to R Meir Simchah haKohein qedushah is about the Inyan E-loki. The proximate cause is us; we are the only means of bringing that G-dliness into a place or object. R Yitzchak Blau has a lecture on Gush's VBM entitled "Sanctity in the Thought of R. Meir Simcha" at https://www.etzion.org.il/en/sanctity-thought-r-meir-simcha He has more examples there of the MC making statements about qedushah to this effect than I was researching. I was on Shemos 12:21 "mishkhu uqechu" when I found that RYB's lecture. Here's what I was open to: Vehinei yeish leha'arikh, shekol meqomos hamuqdashim ein YESODAM min hadas raq meiha'umah vehasharashim "Yesodam" is underlined in my MC. As he continues, all the das, the religious texts say is "the place where Hashem will choose." It's the places history as the place from where Adam was created and where Yitzchaq was ne'eqad that gives it qedushah. We don't identify a holy location by das, we identify it from the people. Also, "Raq Y-m vekhol EY veHar haMoriah benuyim al hisyachasum la'avoseinu". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 16 04:53:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:53:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). > But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In > which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia > se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Two questions: If a belila raqa is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin? If you need to check the label to determine something or other, then you're admitting that this product does have tzuras hapas, aren't you? The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah or raqa? Akiva Miller From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 16 08:18:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:18:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210316151802.GD3279@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:53:54AM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote: > If a belila rakah is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin?... See the AhS OC 158:28, quoting the BY. Two baked goods, one avah and one raqa. The avah is "lechem gamur hu" and gets hamotzi and benching. And the ones that is rakah and very thin is mezonos and al hamichyah. But, as pas haba bekisnin -- it's a hamotzi if you are qoveia se'udah. BUT in se'ifim 47-48 he talks about a different baked good that is rakah, water and flour poured onto the kirah. The Tur says that it's mezonos normally, hamotzi if you are qoveia' se'udah. The BY says it's always mezonos -- he holds it's not lechem at all. (Which I concluded to mean, not even PhBbK.) In se'if 47, it is mezonos because there is even the littlest liquid underneath it, even if it's just to stick. In 48, there is a goma under it. Goma is apparentlly a pullrush or papyrus leaf. I am guessing that is also about not sticking. A modern factory bakery is greasing the baking surface to prevent sticking, so I assumed the latter se'ifim were closer to our topic. (In fact, it was the only case that stuck in my memory until I went back to the siman and had an "oh yeah!". I was that sure that's the case we typically face.) > The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the > liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba > b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah > or raqa? I didn't mean the ingredient label. I meant check if there is anything written next to the hekhsher. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 16 00:20:30 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:20:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Several individuals have asked me to elucidate my question appearing in Avodah Digest, Vol 39, Issue 23 regarding early minha Maariv on Shabbat going into Yom Tov If you look at the Nosei Kelim in SA OH 293:3 (e.g., Mishna Berura no. 9), it is clear that Davening Minha/Maariv [before and After Plag - with va-Todi'einu in Ma'ariv] early on Shabbat afternoon going into Yom Tov (like this year), is considered a davar Tamu'ah and halakhically dangerous since people may start with preparations for yom tov (Seder) and even melakha - and not wait for Tseit ha-Kokhavim. Hence it is permitted only bi-she'at ha-dehak (See Mishna Berura). The question is whether with the change of clock to DST, starting the Seder as soon as possible after tseit so the young children and zekeinim will be able to stay up for the seder is enough of a She'at ha-dehak to permit it. Two poskim were consulted on 2 Nisan 5781 (March 15, 2021): Rav Asher Zelig Weiss and Rav Avraham Shraga Stiglitz both Shlita - and were meikel in such a case. It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles be lit and the seder begin. Kol Tuv and Pesach Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Ethel and David Resnick Professor Emeritus of Active Oxygen Chemistry Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il. From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 08:19:58 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:19:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cracking the History of Soft Matzah Message-ID: This is a very interesting talk about soft matzah given by Rabbi dr. Ari Zivotofsky las year. The talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/podcast/cracking-the-history-of-soft-matzah Cracking the History of Soft Matzah | Torah In Motion Contact Us. Torah in Motion 3910 Bathurst Street, Suite 307 Toronto, ON M3H 5Z3 Canada Tel: (416) 633-5770 Toll Free: (866) 633-5770 info at torahinmotion.org www.torahinmotion.org The source material for this talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/sites/default/files/podcast/matzah_thick_thin_sources.pdf To whet your appetite about this talk, see the second source about finding moldy bread on Pesach in the above pdf file. YL Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky 1 Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.torahinmotion.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 06:17:26 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 13:17:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? A. Shulchan Aruch (451:26) writes that glass does not absorb and therefore does not need to be kashered. However, Rama (Orach Chaim 451:26) writes that the minhag of Ashkenazim is that glass that had been used with hot chametz may not be used on Pesach even if it was kashered. There are two reasons given for this. One reason is because we compare glass, which is made from sand, to cheres (earthenware), which is made from clay. Just as cheres cannot be kashered, likewise glass may not be kashered. The other reason is because we are concerned that one might not kasher glass properly for fear it might crack. Chayei Adam 125:22 writes that if it is difficult to purchase new drinking glasses for Pesach, glasses, which are used primarily for cold drinks, may be kashered with hagalah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 17 05:12:53 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:12:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance (e.g. distancing to try to save lives rather than to meet technical distance criteria) Thoughts on whether this is a common issue? I guess the other side is not looking at areas outside of ritual as being halachic issues? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at mail.gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:29:35 2021 From: jmeisner at mail.gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:29:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... This is a point that has been made often, even outside of the context of the frum community (Zeynep Tufekci has a number of good articles providing data points): that the fixation with hard rules such as 6 feet and 15 minutes rather than broad principles that could be intelligently applied to specific situations (such as Japan's three C's of avoiding close contact, crowded places, and closed spaces) and a tendency for experts (or politicians, perhaps) to take hold of false certainty (l'hakeil ul'hachmir) rather than a nuance born of an honest acknowledgement of how little we knew are among the greatest systemic failures of the Western COVID response. From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 17 16:05:11 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> References: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210317230511.GH19872@aishdas.org> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... I used a different metaphor in the opening of Widen Your Tent, that of an apprentice to an overly methofical carpenter. (Since it's a book about the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher, I called this chapter, "The Introduction to the Introduction".) The carpenter teaches his apprentice one skill at a time, mastering each in order before moving on to the next. So the young lad learns how to use a hammer, learning how to drive the nail in, straight and true, in just a few blows. Then he is introduced to the screwdriver, in all its variants. And when he learns how to screw into any wood without stripping the threads or the head of a Phillips screwdriver, they move on the trade's various saws. And so on through the whole toolset. In fact, the master teaches his apprentice multiple opinions about proper technique, and even ways to use the tools according to various opinions of how to maximize success at the same time. And then, as they just complete practicing a few ways of joining corners, the master, sadly, dies, leaving the student knowing everything about woodwork, but with only a layman's knowledge of the construction of a cabinet, table, or chair. Or how to build shelves that can support the weight of a library of books, and the like. And the apprentice is even further from any knowledge of how to express himself artistically, such as through detailed woodworking." This problem is worse than the forest vs. the trees. It's knowing how to walk (the "halakh" of halakhah) and not knowing where to go (having a derekh). If you miss the forest for the trees, at least you have trees. If you don't know how to define the goals halakhah are to help you reach in a way that works for you, you could walk the wrong direction. Rav Chananel bar Papa said: What is meant by, "Hear, for I will speak princely things, [and my lips will open with what is right]" (Mishlei 8:6)? Words of Torah are compared to a ruler, to tell you that just as a ruler has power of life and death, so too the words of the Torah [have potential for] life or death. As Rava said: To those who go to the right side of it, it is a sam hachaim, a medicine for life; to those who go to its left, it is a sam hamaves, an elixir of death. - Shabbos 88a In addition to creating a culture where people don't bother thinking about what all the CoVID rules are for, since we're used to just thinking about the rules (to summarize how I heard RJR's point), there is a more direct connection. We've become so obsessed with personal observance, with "frumkeit", that we risk lives in ways that would be unthinkable to true ovedei Hashem. Religion as a literal sam hamaves. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 04:52:56 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 07:52:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Selling Chometz on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In a regular year, Erev Pesach (for those who sell their chometz) is rather simple. For the early morning, we can do whatever we want with our chometz, including eating it, and doing business with it. At a certain point, we must stop eating it, and shortly thereafter, the rav sells all the chometz that we've set aside to a non-Jew. This year, the rav will obviously do this business with the non-Jew before Shabbos; it is a regular business transaction, and all the papers must be signed etc etc etc before Shabbos begins. But exactly when is this kinyan chal? Exactly when is the ownership transferred, and when does the rental of the storage space begin? My point is this thread is to suggest that each person should check with their rav to find out the answer. Perhaps there are ways to do all the paperwork etc before Shabbos, yet have it not take effect until a certain time on Shabbos morning. That would be very convenient. But if it all takes effect on Erev Shabbos, then there are several practical ramifications that people might not realize, especially for those who have reserved some chometz to be eaten on Shabbos. If the sale has already taken place on Erev Shabbos, then all my chometz MUST be gotten rid of on Shabbos morning. If the challah was too large for everyone to eat, I do not have the option of putting the remainder with the chometz to be sold. The sale already took place, and this chometz will remain mine. My only options are to eat it, or do some other form of biur. On the flip side, I also don't have the option of retrieving something from the "chometz to be sold" area. In a normal year, if it is Erev Pesach morning and there is an item in the "to be sold" area that I want to eat, there's no problem eating it. But this year, if the sale already took place on Erev Shabbos, then it is too late. Even entering that area would be a violation of the rental agreement. So if you're planning to sell your chometz this year, please ask your rav when the sale takes effect. Or show me where my logic is mistaken. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 10:14:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non- > compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing > the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the > letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit > of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. > claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than > learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance ... If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz sale contract..." cite: https://collive.com/rabbis-decide-to-unilateraly-sell-chometz-of-europes-jews/ I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. But this is an entirely different case. I appreciate the rabbis' desire to minimize the violations of these tinolos shenishbu. But it seems to me that this mechira would have the effect of totally circumventing the entire halacha of Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach. Details would need to be studied (like the status of chametz that a store acquires during Pesach) but on the simple face of it, this mechira would allow any of us to shop anywhere in chu"l after Pesach (at least b'dieved). The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law says not. When a Jew does melacha on Shabbos, and I want to get hanaah from it, halacha makes distinctions whether the melacha was done b'shogeg or b'meizid. Similar distinctions could have been applied to Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach, but instead, Chazal chose to legislate a boycott, in the hopes that these Jews would mend their ways. CONCLUSION AND DISCLAIMER: I am NOT suggesting that these rabanim are wrong. It is their job to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of such an idea. All I'm saying is that it seems to be a great example of how an implementation of the Letter might go very much against the Spirit. (And if it turns out that this article didn't get the story right, it's still an example of how Letter and Spirit *might* conflict.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 19 09:31:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:31:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? A. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 463:3) rules that flour made from roasted wheat kernels may not be mixed with water on Pesach. Even though wheat that is fully roasted cannot become chometz, we are concerned that perhaps some kernels were not properly roasted, and subsequently, the flour might become chometz when mixed with water. The same concern applies to matzah with flour on its surface. It is forbidden to mix such matzah with water because the flour may not be fully baked and would be susceptible to becoming chometz (MB 463:8). Where there is no perceptible flour in or on the matzah, is there a concern that some of the dough may not have been thoroughly mixed, and within the matzah there may be raw flour that was not fully baked? There are two different customs; Mishnah Berurah (458:4) notes that there are anshei ma?aseh, scrupulous individuals, who act stringently and do not allow matzah to come in contact with water, as perhaps it may contain unbaked flour. Many Chassidim have this custom. However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. Shaarei Teshuva, (OC 460:10) notes that both groups are meritorious. Those who do not eat gebrochts are motivated by yiras shomayim (fear of heaven), lest they inadvertently transgress the laws of Pesach. The ones who are lenient are concerned that not eating gebrochts will limit their simchas (joy of) Yom Tov. Shaarei Teshuva concludes: ?Both groups are pursuing paths for the sake of Heaven, and I declare: And Your people are entirely righteous (Yeshaya 60:21).? I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. " YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Fri Mar 19 05:19:02 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:19:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday Message-ID: <0d4301d71cba$0c5d12c0$25173840$@touchlogic.com> Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Mar 21 14:45:42 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:45:42 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 21, 2021 06:06:56 pm Message-ID: <16163811420.61bcacf5f.47748@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is > ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? > I think you need to clarify this common belief, before you ask the question. The belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may shower on Friday, to prepare for Shabbath, for yourself. Rather, the belief is that public aveluth, on Shabbath, spoils the mood, for others. If other people can notice that you have not showered, then your aveluth is intruding into the public space. If you smell like roses, the belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may nevertheless shower because you feel better when you do. It's not about you. It is the same logic that would allow you to stay (according to some opinions) after the xuppa at your daughter's wedding, if you are in aveluth -- not because you are allowed to celebrate her wedding, but because your absence would reduce her celebration. Of course, this hetter does not apply to weddings where there is a mexitza between the men and the women, because then your daughter cannot know that you are there anyway. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 07:22:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:22:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? A. The second cup of wine at the seder is filled after karpas so that Maggid (the central portion of the Haggadah) will be recited over the cup of wine. The Mishnah Berurah writes that after filling the cup, it is inappropriate to drink a separate cup of wine (Be?ur Halachah 473:3 s.v. Harishus). Both Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichos Shlomo, Hil. Pesach 9:34) and Rav Elyashiv (Shevus Yitzchok, Pesach 9:3) maintain that only wine is restricted, but in cases of necessity, one is permitted to drink water or coffee. Rav Elyashiv explains that unless there is a pressing need, even water should be avoided because the Haggadah should be recited with a sense of awe and reverence (see Mishnah Berurah 473:71). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 10:37:33 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:37:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322173733.GB27896@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 01:14:47PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." It's not really the Spirit vs the Letter of the Law, which is a Pauline concept. It's how much conformance to the spirit of the law are we obligated to obey beyond its letter. > I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even > without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for > people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. I would think because they are unlikely to get hana'ah from the chameitz, and therefore it's a case of zokhin le'adam shelo befanav. Here we would have to argue that consuming stolen chameitz is less than an issur than owning and consuming chameitz. And enough of a clear advantage that you can invoke "zokhin le'adam". So, I don't see: > The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law > says not. Because I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the da'as of the maqneh. So I would have argued the reverse: the spirit of the idea of no Jews owning chameitz on Pesach says it's a great idea, but it seems to me it would be the letter of the law that says it's impossible. As you phrased things, and you feel the halakhos of mechirah are met, there is a spirit of the law not being violated -- he shouln't want to own chameitz. I mean, this is far gentler than "kofin oso af al pi she'omer 'Rotzeh ani!'" I am wondering if there is an "al pi nistar" that is being addressed with even the flimsiest excuse of a sale. (While not a Chabad group, founder R Menachem Margolin and most (? all?) of the other members of RCE and EJA are Lubavitcher Chassidim. So, when I don't understand what they're doing al pi nigleh, I wonder if they have some al pi nistar motive.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp, http://www.aishdas.org/asp And the Torah, its light. Author: Widen Your Tent - based on Mishlei 6:2 - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 09:55:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 12:55:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322165547.GA27896@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:20:30AM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done > until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles > be lit and the seder begin. This is generally what one hears as pesaq. And I understand warning people not to forget that melakhah is prohibited, even for the seder. (The RBSO also had to remind us that melakhah is prohibited even for the Miskan.) But I don't get reason for saying no hakhanah. I would think that since the seder (or any se'udas Yom Tov) is a devar mitzvah, a shevus, such as hakhanah, would be allowed during bein hashemashos. (Assuming no melakhah is involved.) I found some sources when we discussed this back in v33n46. https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n046.shtml#01 The Rambam (Shabbos 254:10), MB 211:28, 30, AhS OC 261:11 (who allows "lidevar mitzvah o tzorekh harbei", arguably not delaying the seder is both.) So I don't know why "everyone" bans setting the table, getting the pillows and kitls out, etc..., until tzeis. It seems to me that the MB and AhS would agree you could start at sheqi'ah. Of course, I'm no poseiq. Just wondering about the gap between what I learned and the generally repeated pesaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow http://www.aishdas.org/asp man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries Author: Widen Your Tent about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 22 14:57:33 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:57:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2205c312-d18c-b963-6a89-e4de0bf1661e@sero.name> On 19/3/21 12:31 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., > citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not > /halachicaly/ mandated, Of course it isn't. Literally nobody claims it is. So what does your citation achieve? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 14:58:13 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 21:58:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] cRc Kashrus Alerts In-Reply-To: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> References: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> Message-ID: ________________________________ Tevilas Keilim Update Having trouble reading this email? View it in your browser.<{{onlineview()}}> [KASHRUTH ALERT HEADER] March 22, 2021 Last year, due to COVID-19 restrictions, consumers who were unable to tovel their new keilim (utensils) before Pesach were advised to make them ownerless (mafkir) to exempt them from tevilah. This was a special leniency due to COVID-19 when the local mikvaos were closed. This year, Boruch Hashem. those restrictions have been lifted as the mikvaos are open and have been deemed safe to use. Accordingly, before using those keilim which were made ownerless last year, one should ?reacquire? them by picking them up and then tovel them (with a bracha, if required). Anyone who is still unable to arrange for the tevila of their kelim due to exigent circumstances should be in touch with us for further instructions. Chag Kasher v'Sameach. ************************************************************************************ TO REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, please send your comment or question to the cRc at info at crcweb.org The cRc?s app is available for the iPhone, Android, Kindle, and BlackBerry 10. For product information see our Web-based Application ASKcRc where kosher consumers can check the kosher status of hechsherim, beverages, liquors, foods, fruits & vegetables, Slurpees, medicines, and more. The information is accessible via a simple search box, and the site is optimized to work on mobile as well as desktop devices. https://ASKcRc.org http://twitter.com/crckosher http://cRcweb.org Chicago Rabbinical Council 2701 W Howard Street Chicago Illinois 60645-1303 United States This email was sent to: llevine at stevens.edu Unsubscribe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 22 15:39:14 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:39:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 16:35:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:35:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder Message-ID: I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of things about the seder. I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. The following is from his Introduction to his Shiurim on the Haggadah: >From my earliest youth, 1 remember that children would ask each other on the first morning of Pesach, "How long did your Seder take?" This was true in my youth, and it is still the case today. If the children were to ask me this now, 1 would answer them, "I made sure to eat the afikoman before chatzos (midnight)." According to some poskim, even the recitation of Halle[ should be completed before chatzos. I must point out that the present-day practice in which all the children read from the prepared sheets they received in school is not exactly in accordance with the mitzvah of and you shall tell to your children, etc. (ibid.). The children have initiated a new mitzvah of and you shall tell to your father and mother, which makes it very challenging to perform the mitzvah of achilas matzah and certainly the achilas a{zkoman - before chatzos. YL YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 20:06:44 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:06:44 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . I wrote about an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." R' Micha Berger wrote: > I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the > da'as of the maqneh. A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak, I'm not going to be the one who says that the Rabbanut is wrong for choosing to do it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 23 06:38:53 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:38:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Preparing for the Seder This Year Message-ID: The following is from today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. Being that this year Shabbos is Erev Pesach when should the preparation of the shank bone, charoses, marror, roasted egg, salt water and checking the romaine lettuce take place? A. Seder preparations should be done on Friday, as it is prohibited to prepare on Shabbos for the next day. (This is known as hachana. One may not even nap on Shabbos and say, ?I am resting now to be alert at the Seder?. See M.B. 290.4.) While it would be permitted to prepare some of these items on Saturday night, it would delay the start of the Seder. Much of the seder focuses on the children, and it is important to start the seder as soon as possible before the children fall asleep (M.B.482.1). According to the Vilna Gaon, horseradish should always be grated immediately before the seder so that it will be sharp. Others say it should be grated before Shabbos and stored in a sealed jar to maintain the sharpness as much as possible. If one forgot to prepare horseradish before Shabbos, the grating should preferably be done with a shinui (deviation, such as grating on a paper towel or turning the grater upside down). Romaine lettuce that requires checking for infestation should be checked before Shabbos. One must be careful to drain the lettuce very well. Otherwise, water might accumulate in the bags, and any parts of the lettuce that soaks in water for more than twenty-four hours may not be used for maror (M.B. 473.38). If salt water was not prepared in advance, it can made on Yom Tov (implication of Mishna Berurah 473:21), though some recommend using a shinui by putting the water in the vessel before the salt (Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 118:4). If charoses was not made before Shabbos, the fruit may be grated on Yom Tov, but the nuts should be prepared with a shinui (Shemiras Shabbos Kihilchoso 7:4) (such as crushing in a bag). No deviation is needed when adding the wine (see M.B.495:8). It is preferable to roast the shank bone and egg before Shabbos. If roasted on Yom Tov, they must be eaten on that day of Yom Tov. Since one may not eat roasted meat or chicken at the seder, the shank bone that was prepared Saturday night must be eaten at the Sunday daytime meal (MB 473:32). In general, one may not prepare food on the first day of Yom Tov if the intention is to consume it on the second day or after Yom Tov. (This would constitute hachana, which is forbidden.) As such, another shank bone and egg will have to be roasted Sunday night for the second seder, and the same is true for the preparation of marror, charoses and salt water. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 23 06:58:06 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:58:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 00:59, Prof. L. Levine wrote: > I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck > the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in > the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to > expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. > Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of > things about the seder. > > I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. ... I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the 14th Nissan). This would suggest short Sedarim. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:29:12 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:29:12 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323142912.GC31103@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:06:44PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi > Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef > Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or > were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that > they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). > So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for > Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak... I did't have that big of a problem with the idea of invoking ZlASbF, where the person wasn't going to get hana'ah from the chameitz. Like the people going to RYEH last minute before Pesach. Or my example of someone in a coma. But if people are alive and well and keeping their chameitz around and don't even know it is sold, it isn't a pure zekhus to sell it. They want their chameitz to use it. So, I don't think this precedent addresses my discomfort with the idea. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element http://www.aishdas.org/asp in us could exist without the human element Author: Widen Your Tent or vice versa. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:57:37 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:57:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323145736.GD31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 01:58:06PM +0000, allan.engel at gmail.com wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night... Assuming they held like R Elazar ben Azariah and like R Eliezer in the two machloqesin discussed on Berakhos 9a. R Aqiva and R Yehoshua hold the mitzvah is until the morning. (The first machloqes is about the word "boqer", the second is how to parse Devarim 16:6 -- do you eat kevo hasemesh (sunset to chatzos), or until mo'eid tzesekha miMitzrayim?) Stam Mishnah Pesachim 10:9 talks about the pesach being metamei the hands after chatzos, because that's when it becomes nosar (TY vilna 71b, TB 120b). Zevachim 37a states that this mishnah is according to R Aqiva. The Rambam (Hil' Qorban Pesach 8:15) says the Pesach is only eaten until midnight kedai leharchiq min ha'aveirah, and deOraisa it's okay all night. So he hold like R Aqiva and R Yehoshua, with the kelal we get from R Gamliel in 1:1 that any mitzvah that is permitted all night deOraisa has a derabbanan making it lekhatchilah before chatzos, leharciq min ha'aveirah. So, whether they were very careful with a safe estimate or chatzos-ish was good enough depended on who they held like. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 23 07:46:28 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:46:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: From a letter to the editor: Although abortion is not necessarily considered to be an act of murder, it is nonetheless prohibited in accordance with Halakha (Jewish law). The statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect, as well. Any modern ruling is based on our teachings that go back to our receiving the Torah at Mount Sinai. The laws that we follow are g-d given and not something that the Jewish people came up with in their 40 years in the desert. The author clearly has no grasp on our true heritage and unfortunately feels that she can opine in an area where she has no expertise. Me- I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? CKVS Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 08:55:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:55:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323155513.GE31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 02:46:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness > of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," > is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a > way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) > that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? There are cases where halakhah grows to cover new situations. In many of them we could have extrapolated very different pesaqim for the new from what exists already. Like, in the case of electricity on Shabbos. So, halakhah grows. Changes in facts on the ground don't drive an "evolution" of halakhah. They're really just a non-obvious case of the above. The whole point of such changes isn't that we switched sides on a machloqes, but that the side chosen in the past doesn't work in the new case. So we need to grow new halakhah for the new situation. Even if on most levels it feels like we're doing the same thing but with a new pesaq. Like educable deaf-mutes. We didn't do away with din cheireish. And anyone uneducable because they can neither hear nor talk would qualify. We just don't have too many people like that any more. (RHS, for example, includes the pesi, the sane but intellectually diabled, as cheireish not shoteh. With implications (e.g.) WRT gittin after brain injury.) And then there are cases of actual evolution, where we are following new pesaqim. Halakhah evolves but according kelalei pesaq. Of course, kelalei pesaq are themselves subject to pesaqim, so they could evolve as well. And precedent isn't the only kelal in pesaq. Or, if precedent shifts unconsciously, mimetically. Like an increase in the number of people who just take it for granted that they should look to the soft-stringencies (baal nefesh yachmir and such) in the MB for their rulings rather than the MB's pesaqim or the AhS's. Or RMF grows in esteem, and LORs shift from R Henkin's pesaqim to spending more time with IM. The publishing (and new editions) of Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhasa similarly changed which pesaqim the LOR spends time analyzing, and which get accepted. So, rulings can in principle change. That was a very legal description. R/Dr Moshe Koppel convinced me of a very Rupture-and-Reconstruction-esque understanding of how halakhah evolves, in which dinim are more like laws of a language. So, at Har Sinai, we didn't need as many pesaqim. We were fully emersed in the halachic language, and had a native speaker's ear for what sounds right. And a good poet, a navi, can know just how and when the rules can be occasionally bent or even more rarely broken. But as we lose that culture we become more like English as a second language students, who need more rules. (And we have no idea what's valid poetic license.) And so, as we lose culture halakhah gains formality and rigidity. A steady shift from a mimetic "sounds right" to a textual law book. Until a rupture can cause a major step in this progression. Moshe dies, laws are lost, Osniel ben Kenaz is meyaseid them again. Numerous dinim were similarly codified by Anshei Keneses haGedolah, this is R/Dr Koppel's take on shakhechum vechazar veyasdum. And then we needed a mishnah, an actual structured code to memorize. Then shas, then writing them down... then rishonim wrote codes, and to add my own example -- the way the AhS and then MB were embraced. That is a kind of evolution where the range of valid practices narrow for a situation that didn't change nor did we learn more about the situation. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:28:39 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:28:39 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Evolved" implies an improvement, to a form more adapted to survival and therefore better. The Jewish view of the way halacha has changed over the years is one of devolution; both when we become more lenient because we don't care as much, and when we become stricter because we need it to correct our tendency to leniency, or because we have lost the knowledge on which our ancestors' leniency depended ("ein anu beki'in"). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:17:14 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:17:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f754e36-46c3-705d-e762-e28417b4da88@sero.name> On 23/3/21 9:58 am, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa > (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the > 14th Nissan). Not necessarily. Sinch chatzos is only a geder to prevent it running past dawn, people may have been generous in calculating it, knowing that if they ran over it by a little it was no big deal. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 23 10:48:22 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:48:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat. I turned to Rabbi Eli Gersten who wrtites the OU's Halacha Yomis Column this very question and I forward his answer with his permission. Question: Regarding: Halacha Yomis - Prepping The Seder Plate Since Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat, why can't Hakhanot for the Seder be done on Shabbat? Yiyasher Kochacha for your informative and lucid articles Chak Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh Answer: Yes, and No. See below what the Chayei Adam [Hilkhot Shabbat U-Moadim, sec. 153:6] writes about being maichen on Shabbos or Yomtov for a davar Mitzvah. There are many rules. Only for a dvar mitzvah, and even then only partial hachana, and done with a shinuy, and not close to end of Shabbos, so it is not obvious... ??? ??? ??? ?-? (????? ??? ???????) ??? ??? ???? ? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????. ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ??????? ???? ???, ??? ????. ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ???? (????? ?? ??? ???? ?"? ???? ???' ??"? ???? ?' ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?' ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?"? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????"? ????? ???? ?? ?' ?"? ????? ?? ????? ??' ??"? ?? ?????? ??' ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??"?), ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????. ??? ???? ?????"? ????? ??"? ??"? ???"? ????? ????? ??????? ????, ?? ??????? ????. ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????. ????? ??? ????? ??"? ?? ???? ??' ???? ??"? ?"?. ???? ?? ??"? ??"? ?? ??"? ????? ????? ??"? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????. ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???, ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ?? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????, ??? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????, ?? ????. ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????. ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????. Rabbi Eli Gersten Rabbinic Coordinator 212-613-8222-phone Gerstene at ou.org Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 16:47:46 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323234746.GC24196@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 05:48:22PM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From > Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often > permitted on Shabbat. I specifically brought up starting at sheqei'ah instead of waiting for tzeis because it then involves two factors and there is STRONG consensus to allow: shevus bein hashemeshos, and lidevar mitzvah. No new sources since last time. Just pointing out that The answer from R Eli Gersten of OU's Halacha Yomis doesn't actually help me understand why we cannot start setting the seder table at sheqi'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When we are no longer able to change a situation http://www.aishdas.org/asp -- just think of an incurable disease such as Author: Widen Your Tent inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF ourselves. - Victor Frankl (MSfM) From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Tue Mar 23 19:35:46 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 02:35:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: <278FC3E1-165C-4DFE-89FF-DA7AD035BF6B@tenzerlunin.com> "I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts?? My thought is that Jewish law is too complex to sum up in a letter to the editor even if everyone reading it is Orthodox. And, of course, Jews who are not Orthodox have a different view of Jewish law. Thus, to say in a letter to the editor that "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so? is correct or incorrect is an exercise of futility. Joseph From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:54:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:54:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Egg Matza on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In last week's issue of Ami magazine (4 Nisan, #510) Rabbi Moshe Taub's column is about Shabbos Erev Pesach. On page 162, he gives ideas for how to do the seudos, writing: "B. Use egg matzah. This would only work for Ashkenazim,..." Why would this not work for Sefaradim? Do they hold that egg matza is not pas habaa bkisnin? Do they hold that Pas habaa bkisnin remains mezonos even when one is kovea seuda on it? Maybe it's just not practical to eat 3-4 kebtitzos of it. Any other ideas? thanks Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 06:38:09 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:38:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Some people do not want to have any chametz on the table Shabbos erev Pesach. Can kosher for Pesach egg matzos be used for lechem mishneh? A. Egg matzah is in the category of pas ha?ba b?kisnin (bread-like items that are usually eaten for a snack). Ordinarily, if one eats egg matzah the bracha is borei minai mezonos, unless it is part of a substantial meal. Nonetheless, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe OC 1:155) writes that if egg matzah is used for lechem Mishnah for a Shabbos meal, the bracha is hamotzi. One should make sure to eat at least a kibaiya (a little more than 2 fl. oz) of egg matzah, in addition to other foods that will be served at the meal. According to many opinions egg matzah can only be eaten as long as chometz can be consumed, which is the end of the fourth hour. The Rema (OC 444:1) writes that in our communities, egg matzah is not eaten on Pesach. Therefore, on erev Pesach one should fulfill shalosh seudos with fruit. The implication of Rema is that egg matzah may not be eaten on erev Pesach in the afternoon. However, the Chok Yaakov (444:1) writes that it is possible that the Rema only meant that one is not required to find egg matzah for Shalosh Seudos since it was uncommon in their communities, but if one had egg matzah it may be eaten. The Sharei Teshuva (444:2) as well writes that there is a basis to be lenient. Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doniels at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:30:39 2021 From: doniels at gmail.com (Danny Schoemann) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:30:39 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months Message-ID: Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles with the source of the name Marcheshvan. Online at https://www.sefaria.org.il/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Even_HaEzer.126.17 (Interestingly enough, in 126:19 he says there's a Kometz under these months, Nison, Iyor, Sivon, Marcheshvon, Shvot, Ador.) Kol Tuv - Danny On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, R' Brent Kaufman wrote: >> Now that the ancient pantheons of gods have been brought up, can anyone >> give an explanation for why the we name our months after Babylonian gods? RMB replied: > Of the ones we know translations for, only Tammuz. Warach Dumuzu means "the month of [the god] Tammuz". > This month, Warach Samnu, which becomes Marcheshvan when mem and yud/vav swap during the borrowing, simply means "8th month". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 03:39:37 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:39:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement Message-ID: The fact it that the Shabbatzi Tzvi movement swept the Jewish world. Many important rabbonim became his followers. For example, see my article "Recife - The First Jewish Community in the New World" The Jewish Press, June 3, 2005, page 32. Glimpses into American Jewish History Part 3. The concluding paragraph there is *After finishing this article I discovered that Rabbi Isaac Aboab da Fonseca was apparently a follower of Shabbtai Tzvi. (See www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. jsp?artid=344&letter=A#810, The Sabbatean Prophets by Matt Goldish page 33, and Sabbatai Sevi by Gershom Scholem, pages 520-522.) To put it mildly, I was shocked, given the greatness of Rabbi Aboab. However, it made me realize how strong the messianic movement in the 17th century must have been to gain adherents of Rabbi Aboab`s caliber. Jacob Sasportas was one of the most violent antagonists of the Shabbethaian movement; he wrote many letters to various communities in Europe, Asia, and Africa, exhorting them to unmask the impostors and to warn the people against them. However, I do not believe that he was considered a gadol by many. So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 10:52:04 2021 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:52:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) In-Reply-To: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> References: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. For example, at https://baisdovyosef.com/2861-a-clean-slate-on-clean-hands/ Rabbi Bartfeld quotes him as stringent on foaming soap. My chevrusa asked Rabbi Felder from Toronto to ask him about this, and he said he is mattir whipped cream from a can on Shabbos /v'harei ha'devarim kal va'chomer/. KT, CKvS, YGB On 3/22/2021 6:39 PM, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%20all.doc?dl=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Avodah mailing list > Avodah at lists.aishdas.org > http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:30:10 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:30:10 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:39:37AM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for him. So, those who wanted to believe had who to rely on. (Kind of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it actually is cosidered "a thing".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Circumstances don't make a person, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they reveal a person. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:34:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:34:22 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193422.GB16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 05:30:39PM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote: > Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles > with the source of the name Marcheshvan. It his conclusion of that discussion says that he considers these explanations derashos, because RYME writes "Amnam be'eemes ein doreshin besheimos". So, I don't think he is repeating them as possible sources as much as derashos some find meaningful. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 13:31:29 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:31:29 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 03:30 PM 3/24/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > >There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei >hador. Didn't help. There was not a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Jacob Sasportas was the one who had the courage to come out against the movement. He was essentially a loan voice. Others either went along with the movement or said nothing. R. Eybeschutz was himself suspected of being a follower of ST. in fact, I believe that his son outwardly became a follower. Whether R. Eybeschutz was indeed a follower was never fully determined. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 17:10:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] R. Eybeschutz and ST In-Reply-To: <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1B.B0.11863.285DB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:24 PM 3/24/2021, micha at aishdas.org wrote: >I grew up living around the corner from the home of R SZ Leiman. He davened >(davens?) in the shteibl where my father sheyichyeh was president. I kind of >heard this story before, in a lot more detail. Which is why my post got >written to begin with. > >You are mistaken. The RYE vs RYE fight was one of many. Keep in mind that Rabbi Eybeschutz was born in 1690, long after Shabbatai Tzvi converted to Islam. Indeed ST died in 1676. Hence he could not have been involved in any discussion about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. Rabbi Yaakov Emden was born in 1697, so he also could not have been involved in any discussions about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz Already in Prague 1724, he was suspected of being a Sabbatean. He even got up on Yom Kippur to denounce the Sabbatean movement, but he remained suspected.[2] Therefore, In 1736, Rav Eybeschutz was only appointed dayan of Prague and not chief rabbi. He became rabbi of Metz in 1741. In 1750, he was elected rabbi of the "Three Communities:" Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbek. In July 1725, the Ashkenazic beit din of Amsterdam issued a ban of excommunication on the entire Sabbatian sect (kat ha-ma?aminim). Writings of Sabbatian nature found by the beit Din at that time were attributed to Rav Eybeschutz [3] In early September, similar excommunication proclamations were issued by the batei din of Frankfurt and the triple community of Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbeck. The three bans were printed and circulated in other Jewish communities throughout Europe.[4] Rabbi Ezekiel Katzenellenbogen, the chief rabbi of the Triple Community [5] was unwilling to attack Rav Eybesch?tz publicly, mentioning that ?greater than him have fallen and crumbled? and that ?there is nothing we can do to him? [6] However, Rabbi Katzenelenbogen stated that one of the texts found by the Amsterdam beit din "Va-Avo ha-Yom el ha-Ayyin? was authored by Rav Jonathan Eybesch?tz and declared that the all copies of the work that were in circulation should be immediately burned. [7]As a result of Rav Eybeschutz and other rabbis in Prague formulating a new (and different) ban against Sabbatianism shortly after the other bans were published, his reputation was restored and Rav Eybeschutz was regarded as having been totally vindicated.[8] The issue was to arise again, albeit tangentially, in the 1751 dispute between Rav Emden and Rav Eybeschutz. Sabbatian controversy Rav Eybesch?tz again became suspected of harboring secret Sabbatean beliefs because of a dispute that arose concerning the amulets which he was suspected of issuing. It was alleged that these amulets recognized the Messianic claims of Sabbatai Zevi.[9] The controversy started when Rav Yaakov Emden found serious connections between the Kabbalistic and homiletic writings of Rav Eybeschutz with those of the known Sabbatean Judah Leib Prossnitz, whom Rav Eybesch?tz knew from his days in Prossnitz.[2] Rabbi Jacob Emden accused him of heresy.[9] The majority of the rabbis in Poland, Moravia, and Bohemia, as well as the leaders of the Three Communities supported Rav Eybesch?tz: the accusation was "utterly incredible"?in 1725, Rav Eybesch?tz was among the Prague rabbis who excommunicated the Sabbateans. Others suggest that the Rabbis issued this ruling because they feared the repercussions if their leading figure, Rav Eybesch?tz, was found to be a Sabbatean. Rabbi Jacob Emden suggests that the rabbis decided against attacking Eybeschutz out of a reluctance to offend his powerful family and a fear of rich supporters of his living in their communities [10] The recent discovery of notarial copies of the actual amulets found in Metz and copying the amulets written by Rav Eyebeschutz support Rav Emden's view that these are Sabbatean writings.[11] In 1752, the controversy between Rav Emden and Rav Eybesch?tz raged.Clashes between opposing supporters occurred in the streets drawing the attention of the secular authorities.[12] Rav Emden fled. The controversy was heard by both the Senate of Hamburg and by the Royal Court of Denmark. The Hamburg Senate quickly found in favour of Rav Eybeschutz.[13] The King of Denmark asked Rav Eybeschutz to answer a number of questions about the amulets.Conflicting testimony was put forward and the matter remained officially unresolved[14] although the court imposed fines on both parties for civil unrest and ordered that Rav Emden be allowed to return to Altona.[15] At this point Rav Eybeschutz was defended by Carl Anton, a convert to Christianity, but a former disciple of Rav Eybesch?tz.[16] Rav Emden refused to accept the outcome and sent out vicious pamphlets attacking Rav Eybeschutz.[17] Rav Eyebeschutz was re-elected as Chief Rabbi. In December of that year, the Hamburg Senate rejected both the King's decision and the election result. The Senate of Hamburg started an intricate process to determine the powers of Rav Eybesch?tz, and many members of that congregation demanded that he should submit his case to rabbinical authorities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Mar 24 20:30:38 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 23:30:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <018e01d72127$39a11c60$ace35520$@touchlogic.com> RYGB writes.I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. I have personally been present multiple times when Rabbi Bartfeld discusses his questions w RSM. RB often will write them up, and then review his written answer (if complex) with RSM a second time. I can't promise that broken telephone has never occurred, but the process is pretty error free. Offhand I have only found one RB psak that was different than what RSM told me personally (wearing snowshoes where there is no eruv). It is possible that RSM has changed his mind on that issue (it has been 25yrs+ since I asked the original shaylah) As for your question, I personally have discussed whipped cream from a can on Shabbos with RSM and it is true that he is matir, and is also not concerned with the shape (round, T, etc) formed in the whipped cream by the tip either. As for your question from foaming soap, yesh l'tareitz KT, CKvS, MC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Mar 24 10:18:29 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:18:29 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] Correct Spelling Of Foreign Terms In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 24, 2021 02:33:32 pm Message-ID: <16166243090.4D54BC1.92753@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came >> to the Shabbatai Movement? >> > > Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > > There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei > hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for > him. So, those who wanted to believe had who[m] to rely on. (Kind > of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it > actually is co[n]sidered "a thing".) > I don't remember whether I have said this before on this mailing list. If I have, I apologize for the redundancy. The Hebrew words for kimono and sushi are (I am guessing with strong confidence) "kimono" and "sushi". They are foreign terms, describing foreign things, and when we speak Hebrew, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought these terms into our language. (To be more pedantically correct, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought those terms into our language, to the extent that we are able to imitate them. Our ancestors, for example, could not pronounce foreign words that begin with a shva nax, like Platon and specularia and Xshawerosh, but they did the best they could.) The people who believe in Das Torah do not pronounce the word with a pharyngeal, or even a glottal, stop. They pronounce it "Das Torah". And, since Das Torah is a foreign concept, that does not exist in traditional Judaism, it should be pronounced the way it is pronounced by the people who brought the term into our language, for the same reason that we pronounce kimono "kimono", and sushi "sushi". And when we write it with the Latin alphabet, we should write the first word with one 'a', not with two, showing the same fidelity to its correct pronunciation that we do with any other foreign word. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 13:44:52 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:44:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: . R' Yitzchok Levine quoted the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis <<< Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. >>> I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? Do other ingredients affect this? I have always presumed that all kinds of Matza Ashira are a subset of Pas Habaa Bkisnin, excluding any and all Chometz. In other words, flour and whatever you want except water. Am I mistaken? Is the definition more complicated than that? (Note: I was surprised to find such a wide variety of recipes for egg matza. (We had a large crowd on Erev Pesach, so I bought 4 different boxes so people could sample the different flavors.) Streit's has apple cider and eggs. Aviv Egg Matzah has apple juice, egg, and sugar. Aviv Egg & Onion has an unnamed "pure fruit juice" with sugar, onion powder and egg. Manischewitz contains "pure apple or grape juice" and eggs.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 30 18:49:03 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:49:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30/3/21 4:44 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah > ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it > matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? According to the Rambam, 6:5, Matza is only defined as Ashira if it's made with wine, oil, honey, or milk, but if it's made with Mei Perot it's still Lechem Oni. https://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3506.htm#6 -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 08:30:05 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] To Atone for All our Sins Message-ID: At the Seder, after Dayenu, we have a paragraph in which Dayenu is summarized. "He took us out of Mitzrayim... and He fed us manna... and He brought us to Har Sinai, etc etc and He built the Beis Habechira for us, to be m'chaper for our avonos." My daughter-in-law asked: Why do we need those last words? Let the list end simply, like Dayenu itself did: "... and He built the Beis Habechira for us [full stop]." Or, if some sort of editorializing is needed, let it be on a positive note: "... where we can be close to Him" or "...where He can dwell among us." But at this point in the Seder, (arguably) the very last words of Maggid, where we have finally completed our trip from Genai to Shevach, and from Yagon to Simcha, why do we sully the waters by mentioning our sins (even if the context is forgiveness)? My only guess is that these words serve as a bookend to Maggid's start ("In the beginning we were idolators"), but that doesn't help much; is this bookend really needed, or even helpful? Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhecht at gmail.com Fri Jan 1 13:11:38 2021 From: rhecht at gmail.com (Rafael Jason Hecht) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:11:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Techeiles and Bal Tosif Message-ID: Does anyone know if there are any issues regarding Bal Tosif when wearing the new Techeiles today? (As an aside, one speaker who will address this issue is R' Chaim Twerski - https://www.techeiles.org/yom-iyun). Thanks and Good Shabbos, Rafi Hecht *rhecht at gmail.com* ------------------------------------------------------- *LinkedIN:* *http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rafihecht* *Facebook:* *http://www.facebook.com/rhecht* *Twitter:* *https://www.twitter.com/#!/rafihecht* *Personal Site:* *www.rafihecht.com* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Jan 3 05:31:30 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2021 08:31:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? Message-ID: At 09:49 PM 1/2/2021 ,R Micha Berger wrote: >The AhS (se'if 4) gives a reason to put a gartl on even if you are >wearing a belt. The pasuq reads "Hakhon liqras E-lokhekha Yisrael". >The gemara (Shabbos 10a) gives examples of such hakhanos. The AhS brings >down this gemara earlier (se'if 1) and refers to it here. > >Putting on a gartl has become a traditional way to prepare oneself to >meet the RBSO, and even if today's fashion makes it rarely necessary >for ein libo ro'eh es ha'erva, the AhS believes the practice should not >be stopped. > >And that's from the Litvisher poseiq known for finding meqoros for >justifying minhag! I would guess that in Litta, gartelach were far more >common than among today's "Litvish". I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off his tie and used it as a gartel for davening. Rav Schwab said, "He should have left his tie on his neck. He already had a separation between his upper and lower body, since he was wearing a belt. Wearing a tie is appropriate for davening" I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should wear them out. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 07:14:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:14:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Gartel (was Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103151439.GB20407@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 03, 2021 at 08:31:30AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > I recall hearing a story about Rav Schwab and a Chosid. The Chosid took off > his tie and used it as a gartel for davening.... Yes, it could be that dressing fit for a melekh when speaking to the Melekh Malkhei hamlakhim is more important than putting on a gartel if you are already wearing a belt. Not really relevant to whether one should wear a gartel when there is no such trade-off. > I doubt that men in LIta wore gartels based on what the AhS said. After > all, in Minhagei Lita the author wrote that no one in Lita wore their > tzitzis out, not even the Chofetz Chaim, even though the MB says one should > wear them out. Mah inyan shemitah eitzel Har Sinai? The MB and AhS are very different books. One of the more spoken about differences is that the MB is a survey of acharonim who post-date the standardized SA page. The MB therefore leans toward clean-slate theory. He doesn't give much weight to centuries of accepted practice. So, the MB could say something about wearing tzitzis out that no one did. (Also, because he tells you the book is a survey of later sefarim, there is no reason to believe he expected people to follow his seifer lemaaseh. And thus it is less surprising that the CC himself didn't always follow what was written there.) The AhS is famous for finding how accepted practice is theoretically sound. (When possible, of course.) If some hold a gartel is necessary and some not, so that both sides are sound pesaqim, the AhS will almost always side with whatever is being done. Thus, the AhS's pesaq is evidence of what Litvaks held, whereas the MB's pesaq isn't. It's a methodology difference between the two works discussed on-list repeatedly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The goal isn't to live forever, http://www.aishdas.org/asp the goal is to create so mething that will. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 3 06:39:18 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 14:39:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Shimon Schwab on Chillul Hashem Message-ID: The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash pages 191 to 193. Note his message to the embezzler! Living in Caius America, the malchus shel chessed, only strengthens the Jew's obligation to create a kiddush Hashem. The Rav taught that every form of chillul Hashem decreases awareness of the Divine presence in this world. If the perpetrator is supposedly an observant Jew or, worse, a so-called Torah scholar, then the offense is that much greater. He would ask: "How can a person who has cheated his neighbor or defrauded the government have the audacity to stand in front of the congregation and recite Kaddish, a prayer for sanctifying G-d's Name in the world?" The Rav's greatest fear was of a chillul Hashem. On his checks, he never used the title "Rabbi." He told me that he was always concerned that if, G-d forbid, a check were to bounce, "Rabbi" would add to the chillul Hashem. Many years ago, a shameful scandal erupted around a Jewish businessman who was tried for embezzlement. Influential members of the embezzler's community approached Rav Schwab with a plea that he do what he could to save the man from prison. Rav Schwab became extremely agitated. He pointed out that the man's behavior, widely publicized in the media through the printed word and the television screen, had caused a tremendous chillul Hashem; the man had become .a virtual rodef of Kial Yisrael, because Jews everywhere would suffer aniti-Semitism due to his actions. He forthrightly told the visitors that the embezzler deserved to sit in prison for a long time. But he pleaded with them to give the embezzler a message: The m;111 should shave off his beard and take off his yarmulke when appearing i11 court or on television, because by wearing these religious accoutremenh, he would be creating a new chilluf Hashem every day and would be a living disgrace for the Jewish People. In Selected Writings, Rav Schwab wrote extensively on the topic of chilul Hashem: "If one steals from a non-Jew, swears falsely and dies, his death does not atone for his sin because of chillul Hashem (Tosefta Bava Kamma 10). Let us repeat. The profaners and desecrators give us all a rotten name, aiding and abetting our many adversaries and antagonizing our few friends. Therefore, no white-washing, no condoning, no apologizing on behalf of the desecrators. Let us make it clear that anyone who besmirches the sacred Name ceases to be our friend. He has unwittingly defected from our ranks and has joined our antagonists, to make us suffer in his wake. And -noblesse oblige- the more prominent a man in Orthodox Jewish circles, the more obligated he must feel to observe the most painstaking scrupulousness in his dealings with the outside world." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 05:32:03 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 08:32:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Spoiler alert: The reason I'm asking is that I have found some evidence (within Chazal) that a besula *can* become pregnant from her first act. But I don't want to expound on that evidence pointlessly, so I'll come forward only if there really is such a Chazal. Thanks in advance. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 08:36:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 11:36:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai Message-ID: . About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring how authoritative the targumim are. This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the first pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, and in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In my opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that a translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. So I decided to post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear in Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were probably his own. M'inyan l'inyan b'oso inyan... I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer Bereshis (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* translates it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". It's not until Sefer Shemos that Onkelos changes his style. Never again does he leave Ivri as Ivri; we are (or are becoming) a nation, and it seems that Onkelos wants his audience to be able to identify with that nation, by unambiguously translating it as Yehudi. This is true in Shemos 1:15, 1:16, 1:19, 2:6, 2:7, 2:11, 2:13, 3:18, 5:3, 7:16, 9:1, 9:13, and 10:3. (After Parshas Bo, the word Ivri does not appear again in the Torah, with three exceptions: Shmos 21:2, and twice in Devarim 15:12. All three of those are in the context of an Eved Ivri, and Onkelos translates "Ivri" as "Bar Yisrael." I find this to be a very reasonable change: If Onkelos had used either "Ivri" or "Yehudi", then the result would have been ambiguous, possibly meaning an eved who is *owned* by a Jew. By translating as "Bar Yisrael" in those cases, it clearly refers only to an eved who *is* a Jew.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Jan 3 10:04:47 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 13:04:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Existing practice driving halacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210103180447.GA5628@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 07:34:51AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > There's a recurring discussion on the list about the mechanism for > existing Jewish practice being a source for ongoing psak halacha. In view > of which I thought it useful to share an essay by R Hutner in Pachad > Yitzchak on Chanuka, maamar 14. He posits that there are two distinct > drivers of the obligation to maintain any given takana... Isn't this a different topic? Taqanos and gezeiros are dinim derabbanan. And the source of our obligation here would be the source for considering a new halakhah as binding: > the beis din concerned and the extent to which Klal Yisrael accepts and > keeps the takana. Each works independently. But pesaq is an interpretation of existing din. The AhS, noted for his support of minhag Yisrael (as I recently noted yet again on another thread), doesn't pasqen that married women don't have to cover their hair. Instead, he talks about how sad it is that this is the norm, and dicusses the impact of that norm on hilkhos qeri'as Shema. (Seeing a married woman with uncovered hair isn't a distraction when the site is commonplace, and therefore saying Shema in that situation is permitted.) Speaking of the AhS... I have been watching through this round of AhS Yomi, and I don't have a clear picture of his position yet. Sometimes it seems that RYME supports minhag Yisrael for "im lo nevi'im heim" or "she'eiris Yisrael lo yaaseh avlah" type reasons. Collectively, we have siyata diShmaya. At other times it seems RYME is resting on the authority of the centuries of posqim who allowed the practice to flourish. Not directly on the masses, but using common practice as evidence of a silent majority of formal sources. > However there's an important distinction in the mechanism by which > each works. The beis din's takana works through da'as, ie the conscious > decision to enact a practice. In contradistinction, acceptance of any > given practice by klal yisrael works specifically without da'as... Brilliant! The masses are the keepers of mimetic tradition. The second we think about it and plan, it's textual / formal tradition, and requires the expertise of rabbanim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A sick person never rejects a healing procedure http://www.aishdas.org/asp as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what Author: Widen Your Tent other people think when dealing with spiritual - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF matters? - Rav Yisrael Salanter From mgluck at gmail.com Sun Jan 3 16:51:49 2021 From: mgluck at gmail.com (Moshe Y. Gluck) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 19:51:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: R' AM: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? > And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? > > Yevamos 34a. KT, MYG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:07:30 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:07:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fw: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________ The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 4 09:23:00 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:23:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? Message-ID: Yesterday my 5-year-old grandson Yisroel Meir Levine ask me the following question. "Zaidie, why do they break a plate and a g;ass at a Chasanah?" A google search yields The breaking of the glass holds multiple meanings. Some say it represents the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Others say it demonstrates that marriage holds sorrow as well as joy and is a representation of the commitment to stand by one another even in hard times I told him about the destruction of the Temple. (I did not give him the cynical reason that I have heard, namely, "This is the last time that the chosson gets to put his foot down!"?) I had no idea why the mothers of the chosson and kallah break a plate as part of making tenaim. A goggle search yields https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/tenaim-the-conditions-of-marriage/ An Old Ceremony From the 12th to the early 19th century, tenaim announced that two families had come to terms on a match between their children. The document setting out their agreement, also called tenaim, would include the dowry and other financial arrangements, the date and time of the huppah [the actual wedding ceremony], and a knas, or penalty, if either party backed out of the deal. After the document was signed and read aloud by an esteemed guest, a piece of crockery was smashed. The origins of this practice are not clear; the most common interpretation is that a shattered dish recalls the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and it is taken to demonstrate that a broken engagement cannot be mended. The broken dish also anticipates the shattered glass that ends the wedding ceremony. In some communities it was customary for all the guests to bring some old piece of crockery to smash on the floor. There is also a tradition that the mothers-in-law-to-be break the plate?a symbolic rending of mother-child ties and an acknowledgment that soon their children will be feeding each other. After the plate breaking, the party began. Does anyone have any more insight into the reason for breaking a plate? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Jan 3 15:49:09 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:49:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0664acd2-f84a-e6f5-b3bb-9355bb8c7e6d@sero.name> On 3/1/21 8:32 am, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to > which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first > sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me?to that > chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? Yes, it is definitely a maamar chazal, found in several places, e.g. Yevamos 34a, Brereshis Raba 45, Yalkut Shimoni Bereshis 16:4. Exceptions include Hagar, Lot's daughters, Tamar, *perhaps* Leah, -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 3 10:45:10 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 18:45:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember once hearing that there's a chazal somewhere, according to which it is impossible for a besula to become pregnant from her first sexual act. Is this accurate? If so, can someone point me to that chazal? And if there *is* such a chazal, does anyone argue on it? ----------------------------------------------------- ??"? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? (??) ?????? ???' - ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??????: Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Sun Jan 3 22:46:33 2021 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 01:46:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish impact Message-ID: Pirkei Avot Ch. 5 lists several worldwide calamities that God causes or allows to occur in response to Jewish actions or inactions, including ?dever? (plague/pestilence). It is possible that Avot only refers to Israel, not the world, despite the language, ?comes to the world.? Question - is there any source for this ethic being limited to those sins and calamities listed there, or the contrary, for the ethic being extended to sins or calamities not listed there? From sholom at aishdas.org Mon Jan 4 16:27:11 2021 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 19:27:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RAM wrote: > This morning, as I began learning Parshas Shemos, I noticed that the > first > pesukim contain the word Ivri (Hebrew) several times in various forms, > and > in every case, Onkelos translates it as some form of Yehudai (Jew). In > my > opinion, this is a very reasonable translation if Onkelos was trying to > explain the Torah to his contemporaries, but it is highly unlikely that > a > translation dating from Sinai would have used this word. I don't understand the stira. As I learned it: Onkelos was explaining based on a Torah-mi-Sinai *understanding*. > So I decided to > post this as evidence that although the ideas and concepts which appear > in > Onkelos' translation might date from Sinai, the exact words were > probably > his own. I was unaware that folks thought otherwise! > I wondered why I didn't notice this translation in recent parshiyos. It > turns out that forms of the word Ivri appear six times in Sefer > Bereshis > (14:13, 39:14, 29:17, 40:15, 41:12, 43:32) and Onkelos *always* > translates > it as some Aramaic form of Ivri -- "Hebrew", not "Jew". I have a Sefer on Onkelos (Drazin and Wagner) which explains that in Berehis he renders Ivri literally, but when the family grew into a nation (in Shemos) he used the nation's name known among his contemporaries. The authors say that it's Onkelos' tendency to update the names of nations and places as they were contemporaneously known. FWIW, -- Sholom From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 4 22:28:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 06:28:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 5 03:43:38 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 11:43:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" Message-ID: I have received two interesting responses to my grandson Yisrael Meir"s question. Ruth Stern wrote "To cite Rav Schwab. A broken glass can be re-blown and then repaired. China, once broken, can?t be repaired. The glass is broken to remember the Bais Hamikdash which will be restored. The broken plate represents the fact that the agreement, Tenaim, cannot be canceled without a get." Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky (who seems to have written an article about almost everything) wrote https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-law/whats-the-truth-about-breaking-a-glass-at-a-wedding/ may have some information you are looking for. This is a comprehensive article about this topic and is well worth reading. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 04:31:26 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 07:31:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can a besula become pregnant? Message-ID: . (Many thanks to R' Joel Rich and R' Moshe Gluck for sending me valuable sources on this topic.) Yevamos 34a (near the bottom) states that "ain isha mis'aberes b'biah rishona - a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations." On 35b, the Gemara challenges this idea, pointing out that in Bereshis 38, Tamar got pregnant from first relations, which were with Yehuda. The answer is that Tamar had damaged her besulim beforehand, so that she would be able to conceive from Yehuda. (The Gemara adds that although Er and Onan had relations with Tamar, they deliberately did it in such a way that her besulim was not damaged.) On Bereshis 19:36, Rashi gives a similar answer regarding Lot's daughters. Rashi accepts the principle that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," and so he says that they did something which enabled them to conceive. (Rashi's wording is different from that in Yevamos, so it's not clear to me whether he's describing the same procedure. And for the purposes of this thread, the exact procedure doesn;t really matter anyway.) I would like to ask about another case where a woman seems to have conceived from her first relations, and that woman is Leah Imenu. According to Rashi on Bereshis 49:3, Reuven was conceived from Yaakov Avinu's very first drop of semen. How can this be? Did Leah have relations with someone else prior to marrying Yaakov? Did Yaakov have prior relations with Leah, rendering her non-besulah, without emitting? Those ideas are *not* very appealing. The alternative would be to suggest that she did something medically that enabled her to conceive Reuven, but whereas Tamar and Bnos Lot had strong incentives to get pregnant immediately, I don't know what Leah's motivation might have been. Perhaps she was afraid that Yaakov would divorce her when Rachel became available, so she tried to lock him in by getting pregnant? Before clicking "send", I searched for an answer yet again, and this time I found it. The Ohr Hachayim on this pasuk (Bereshis 49:3) is very long, and near the very end (paragraph beginning "Gam ramaz") he quotes Rashi and writes: "From this you learn that [Yaakov] did not have relations with [her] besulim, rather he removed [her] besulim with a finger, so that he would not waste that drop. So you have learned that even during the act, physical desire did not overpower him, and his act was a totally holy thing." Alternatively, https://mg.alhatorah.org/Parshan/Rid/Bereshit/49.1#m7e0n6 gives the perush of Rav Yeshaya of Trani (Ri"d) on this pasuk, who answers that according to the Yerushalmi, *all* of the Imahos damaged their besulim. He doesn't states where this Yerushalmi can be found, nor does he explain *why* the Imahos would do that, but I suppose it's reasonable to presume that their logic was the same as the Ohr Hachayim has assigned to Yaakov - to prevent wasted seed. Conclusion: I do not know where Chazal got this idea that "a woman does not get pregnant from (her) first relations," nor have I seen any proof or evidence for it. We do have three stories in the Torah - Lot's daughters, Tamar, and Leah - which *seem* to disprove it, but all three can be understood in a way that does *not* disprove it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Tue Jan 5 07:35:45 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:35:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why do they break a plate and glass? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E.7A.23873.98784FF5@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 08:36 AM 1/5/2021, Joel Rich wrote: >Glass-see brachot 30b at bottom This gemara does not speak about the Chosson breaking a glass under the chuppah. It talks about breaking an expensive vessel to decrease the levity of those at the chasanah. Once the glass (that is not expensive) is broken by the chosson, all sorts of "joy" breaks out to the extent that some rabbonim have called for eliminating this practice. See Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky's article that I posted a link to. YL From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 6 05:19:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:19:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Kibud Av v'Aim Pointers Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin KIBUD AV V?AIM POINTERS A. Unless a parent is knowingly mochel, it is forbidden to refer to your father or mother by their first name (even when requested for identification purposes) without a title of honor preceding the first name, whether or not they are present and whether or not they are alive. When being called to the Torah, one must refer to his father as Reb or Avi Mori. Whenever referring to one?s mother, one can use the title HaIsha or Moras (Yoreh Deah 240:2) B. When honoring parents, very special care and concern must be taken to do it b?sever ponim yofos?pleasantly (Yorah Deah 240:4). The Sefer Chareidim (Mitzvos Asei of the Heart 1:35) and Rav Chaim Shmulevitz (Sichos Mussar 5731:22) both explain that in order to properly perform the mitzvah, one must mentally gain a true appreciation and honor of their parents and literally view them as royalty. Indeed, the Chayei Adom (67:3) known for his succinctness in recording Halacha, writes that the ?Ikar Kibud??the most important [aspect of] Kibud is that ?He should view his parents as GREAT personages and important dignitaries of the land YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 5 15:51:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:51:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210105235158.GA31982@aishdas.org> I was under the impression that Unqelus was credited with recreating through ruach haqodesh the Aramaic translation of the Torah that Ezra had offered. "Shakechum vechazar veyasdum". See Megillah 3a https://www.sefaria.org/Megillah.3a.7-8 I said "Ezra offered because I presumed that the version the gemara refers to from Nechemiah was the same as in Sanhedrin 21b (and the Y-mi Megillah 10a). That the Torah was given originally in Kesav Ivri and Lashon haQodesh, and given again in the days of Ezra in Kesav Ashuris and Lashon Arami. And the Jews selected Ashuris and LhQ. So that Unqelus was chazar veyasad a veritable second giving of the Torah. Which explains why the Tur holds that Shenayim Miqra veEchad Targum means specifically Targum Unqelus. (Not the only shitah, but it does explain the shitah.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From simon.montagu at gmail.com Wed Jan 6 12:09:34 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 22:09:34 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 8:41 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > . > About 11 1/2 years ago, R' Simon Montagu started this thread, exploring > how authoritative the targumim are. > Since then I've gone into the topic a bit more. Recommended reading: Menahem Kasher "Targum Misinai" in vol. 17 of Tora Shelema (on HebrewBooks starting at https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=51490&st=&pgnum=325) Refael Posen "Targum Misinai" in Sidra 15 ( https://forum.otzar.org/download/file.php?id=32781) and, lehavdil, my own "'Targum Onkelos is from Sinai': Origins and Interpretations of a Tradition', https://www.academia.edu/44849107/_Targum_Onkelos_is_from_Sinai_Origins_and_Interpretations_of_a_Tradition -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mendel at case.edu Wed Jan 6 07:55:50 2021 From: mendel at case.edu (Mendel Singer) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:55:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Responses to "Why do they break a plate and a glass at a chasunah?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47b4bce5-c1a8-f300-1f79-5fb268e8cbc0@case.edu> My answer: So when one of the couple drops and breaks a glass or a china plate they can associate it with happy memories and not fight! (Sure, right). ? mendel From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 7 15:57:06 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> On 7/1/21 6:10 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Seforno on Shenmos 4:11: > "Mi sam peh le'adam -- Who gave man a mouth?": > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > > Notice "nasan" is lashon avar, and "sam" -- to give, and what was given > was the natural preconditions that make teva ha'adam, things like a > mouth that speaks. > > It is an interesting circumlocution by the Seforno that seems to say > that a person's biology wasn't created directly, but via processes > Hashem put into place. I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk. The human nature is to have all the necessary natural equipment, physical and neurological, for talking. About sam (past) vs yasim (future), see Malbim. Moshe's hava amina was that a person by default has no power of speech, and Hashem has to put in each person such a power. Therefore since he wasn't given this power it follows that his shlichus in the world doesn't need it. Therefore jobs that do need it, such as leading the people, aren't for him. Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an individual decision by Hashem. But as people are born, "yasum ilem", Hashem makes some of them dumb. It's dumbness that's unnatural, and therefore the result of an individual decision. So Moshe's dumbness, rather than indicating that his shlichus simply doesn't involve speech, actually indicates that his shlichus *does* include dumbness. It's precisely because he is well-known to be dumb that his eloquence on this occasion will be regarded as a miracle and will make people listen to him. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 8 12:57:43 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:57:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > > Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created > the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. > Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man > at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi > sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an > individual decision by Hashem.... Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as the thing exists. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sat Jan 9 20:50:34 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 23:50:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Would Seforno be Comfortable with Evolution? In-Reply-To: <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> References: <20210107231032.GA17796@aishdas.org> <065c9bb8-abdf-2294-b438-7d85e357629d@sero.name> <20210108205743.GA5394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <70511e8b-b7ac-5261-ca01-28b581e27dfa@sero.name> On 8/1/21 3:57 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> Mi nasan hahakhanos hativ'iyos bekoach teva ha'adam? > >> I don't see the circumlocution. He's saying that Hashem, when He created >> the human species, gave it a nature of being able to talk.. > > He didn't say nasan koach hadibur. Hashem gave the natural prep in order for > humans to have a power of speach. The wordiness, and the need to instroduce > "hahakhanos" is what I was commenting on. Because he's talking about human nature, not about individual humans. He didn't give humans a "power of speech", He made human nature such that humans can naturally speak. >> Hashem tells him his premise is wrong. The power of speech was given to Man >> at creation, and is baked in to the specification for the whole species. "Mi >> sam peh." The fact that a person can speak is not the result of an >> individual decision by Hashem.... > > Yotzeir or, not yatzar or. Hamchadeish betuvo. As someone with a Chabad > background, you know the Besh"t on this better than I do. 10 maamaros > implies that unlike the printed word, which exists after the writing is > done, creation is like the spoken word -- Hashem is creating as long as > the thing exists. First of all, the Malbim was not a chassid, so he's not necessarily consistent with the Baal Shem Tov's ideas. And in fact he does not seem to subscribe to the Baal Shem Tov's shita in Hashgacha Pratis. He often writes that the punishment for not doing mitzvos is that Hashgacha Pratis is withdrawn and one is left to the mercy of the random forces of nature. But in this instance there's no contradiction. He's referring to when the decision was/is made that a person should be speaking or dumb. Hashem tells Moshe that He long ago made the decision that human nature would be to be able to speak, so the fact that an individual can speak doesn't mean anything. It's the default human condition. But "yasum ilem", as He creates each individual, He makes certain individuals deviate from the norm and be dumb, and that is always a deliberate decision regarding that individual, and therefore must be meaningful. The fact that each person, whether speaking or dumb, is being constantly created isn't relevant to this point. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 06:08:05 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 14:08:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? A. A general principal in halacha is ?ain bishul achar bishul? (a cooked food cannot be recooked) and it is permissible to reheat cooked food on Shabbos. Nonetheless, there are situations where this does not apply: * Food may not be put on a stove top or in an oven on Shabbos, even if fully cooked, either because it has the appearance of cooking or because one might adjust the flame. This is known as chazara (returning). * According to most opinions, ain bishul achar bishul applies only to solid food and not to liquids. * To qualify for ain bishul achar bishul, the food must be fully cooked. * According to some (Shulchan Aruch OC 318:5), ain bishul achar bishul does not apply to cooking (with liquid) a food that was previously baked or roasted (without liquid) or vice versa. This is because baking and cooking are different modes and doing one after the other may constitute bishul. As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. The Rema rules that one may not even put bread into a kli sheini, a second vessel. (Liquid that was heated on a fire is known as a kli rishon. If that liquid was transferred to another vessel it is referred to as a kli sheini- a second vessel.) However, the Mishnah Berurah (318:47) writes that one may add bread to a kli shelishi (liquid transferred to a third vessel) because the temperature is diminished. Moreover, the Mishnah Berurah (318:45) writes that if a ladle was used, the ladle may be viewed as the kli sheini, and the bowl is treated as a kli shelishi. As such, bread or matzah meal may be added to soup that was placed in a bowl with a ladle. It should be noted that in general it is questionable if raw food may be added to a kli shelishi on Shabbos. Nonetheless, bread may be placed in a kli shelishi because there is a confluence of two uncertainties: a) does cooking occur in a kli shelishi and b) does ain bishul achar bishul apply to a baked food added to a kli rishon? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Jan 11 10:34:15 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 13:34:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <681a1f57-f0e6-eb30-1316-35145df8d4ad@sero.name> However bagels would be OK, since they have already been boiled. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 11 09:54:54 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 17:54:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning Message-ID: Secular Studies and Torah Learning The following is from pages 148-149 of Judaism's Encounter with Other Cultures: Rejection or Integration? Given what the GRA said below, one can only wonder why music is not taught in all of our yeshivas. R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839) wrote: I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon?s disciple R. Menahem Mendel. It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering it. . . He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from undertaking its study, fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save a life. . . . He also stated that he had mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.? [11] [11.] Pe?at ha-Shulhan, ed. Abraham M. Luncz (Jerusalem, 1911), 5a. ?When I was in the illustrious city of Vilna in the presence of the Rav, the light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, the light of the eyes of the exile, the renowned pious one (may Hashem protect and save him) Rav Eliyahu, in the month of Teves 5538 [January 1778], I heard from his holy mouth that according to what a person is lacking in knowledge of the ?other wisdoms,? correspondingly he will be lacking one hundred portions in the wisdom of the Torah, because the Torah and the ?other wisdoms? are inextricably linked together ?? (From the Introduction to the Hebrew translation of Euclid?s book on geometry, Sefer Uklidos [The Hague, 1780] by R. Barukh Schick of Shklov, one of the main talmidim of the Vilna Gaon.) R. Yhonason Eybeschutz in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi in Torah and Science pages 24-25) writes: "For all the sciences are 'condiments' and are necessary for our Torah, such as the science of mathematics, which is the science of measurements and includes the science of numbers, geometry, and algebra and is very essential for the measurements required in connection with the Eglah Arufah and the cities of the Levites and the cities of refuge as well as the Sabbath boundaries of our cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics] is necessary for the judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are used honestly or fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary for the Sanhedrin to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests; furthermore, the need for this science is great in connection with examining witnesses, who claim they stood at a distance and saw the scene, to determine whether the arc of vision extends so far straight or bent. The science of astronomy is a science of the Jews, the secret of leap years to know the paths of the constellations and to sanctify the new moon. The science of nature which includes the science of medicine in general is very important for distinguishing the blood of the Niddah whether it is pure or impure ? and how much more is it necessary when one strikes his fellow man in order to ascertain whether the blow was mortal, and if he died whether he died because of it, and for what disease one may desecrate the Sabbath. Regarding botany, how great is the power of the Sages in connection with kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too we may mention zoology, to know which animals may be hybridized; and chemistry, which is important in connection with the metals used in the tabernacle, etc." In light of the above, I simply do not understand why some yeshiva boys do not receive an adequate secular education and why secular subjects are disparaged in some circles. On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply.? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Jan 11 22:50:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 06:50:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Secular Studies and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Shabbos I showed these quotes to a 16-year-old yeshiva bochur. He said, "But everything is in the Torah." I replied, "Show me where the Pythagorean theorem is in the Torah." Needless to say, he had no reply. ======================================= 1. Difficult to convince someone whose whole education has been devoted to a different approach AND has been told it is the only acceptable approach. 2. I?ve said , I agree it?s all derivable from Torah but isn?t it a more efficient use of time to get it direct rather than derive it? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 12 05:11:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:11:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one pour cold water into hot soup to cool it down? A. A hot pot of soup is a kli rishon (primary source of heat) and one may not add cold water to the pot, since this will cook the water. However, a bowl of soup is a kli sheini (secondary source of heat), and water does not cook in a kli sheini. It would therefore seem that one may add cold water to a bowl of soup. Still, the halacha is not so obvious, since there are also pieces of meat or vegetables in the soup. A solid food transferred to a secondary vessel retains the status of a kli rishon according to some poskim. Perhaps we need be concerned that the hot pieces of vegetable or meat may cook the water. The Pri Megadim (253: Aishel Avrohom 32) writes that it is possible that all agree that hot pieces of meat that are submerged in liquid in a kli sheini have the status of a kli sheini and cannot cook. This appears to be the consensus of many poskim (see Pischei Teshuva YD 94:7 and Kitzos Hashulchan 124:39). Therefore, one may add cold water to soup. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 12 14:05:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210112220532.GA5585@aishdas.org> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 02:08:05PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup >> on Shabbos? ... >> As such, matzah meal or bread should not be placed in a bowl of hot soup >> that is yad soldes. Yad soledes is a halachic term which refers to the >> temperature at which cooking occurs. The exact temperature of yad soledes >> is open to debate, but it is generally assumed to be higher than 113 F. >From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at : Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi (MB 318:45)[10]. Before I share footnote #10, which is long and may lose people's attention, let me cite AhS 318:25 who acknowledges that some are machmir WRT bread, but doesn't consider it iqar. And the Rama, who holds like the Raaviyah, that there is no bishul achar afiyah. So, what the OU says "should not" should really be a CYLOR. Now, back to the PH: [10] Those who do not allow dipping bread into hot soup in a kli sheni follow two stringencies: a) They prohibit cooking after baking; b) they defer to the opinion that many foods are considered kalei ha-bishul and thus can become cooked in a kli sheni. Nevertheless, when serving soup using a ladle, according to Maharil, Pri Hadash, and others, the ladle is considered a kli sheni. Accordingly, the soup bowl is a kli shlishi, and in a kli shlishi there is definitely no prohibition. While Taz and Shakh maintain that the ladle is a kli rishon and MB 318:87 follows this approach, nevertheless this is a case of a twofold doubt, and thus one may be lenient (MB 318:45) as long as the ladle does not remain in the kli rishon long enough to reach the same heat as the vessel itself. Soup nuts may be added to a kli sheni even le-khathila, since they are deep fried and are considered cooked rather than baked (SSK 1:70). Furthermore, this further cooking is not desired, as people do not want the soup nuts to get soggy. According to those who maintain that ein bishul ahar afiya (there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been baked), one may definitely toast challah. Additionally, MA 318:17, Mahatzit Ha-shekel, and Hayei Adam (Zikhru Torat Moshe 24:7) would permit this even for those who are stringent about bishul ahar afiya, since they maintain that baking and roasting are the same. In contrast, some are stringent because they maintain that roasting is different from baking (Pri Megadim, Mishbetzot Zahav 318:7; SSK 1:71; Kaf Ha-hayim 318:78; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:6; Menuhat Ahava vol. 2 ch. 10 n. 154). There is even one opinion that expresses concern that this is considered Makeh Be-fatish (applying the finishing touch) (Rav Pe'alim, OH 2:52). In practice, the lenient position (that roasting and baking are the same) seems the more reasonable one, since if one continues to bake food it dries out, and essentially becomes toasted. Nevertheless, one who chooses to be stringent is commendable. This is the case when it comes to completely toasting the bread, but even those who are stringent would allow warming up bread - even to the point that the surface crisps - because doing so does not make a significant change to the baked state. Rav Pe'alim indeed states this in OH 2:52, and Nishmat Shabbat 318:26 states similarly. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The greatest discovery of all time is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp a person can change their future Author: Widen Your Tent by merely changing their attitude. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Oprah Winfrey From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 04:55:09 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 07:55:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? Message-ID: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely does not cook." When I make a coffee on Shabbos morning, I take the water from the urn and put it into a cup. I then pour this water into another cup which is then a kli shlishi. However, the temperature of the water in the second cup is still very hot. Indeed, if I poured it onto my hand I would get scalded. How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup, the kli shlishi? Not very much. The temperature of the water in the second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not cook? At 05:05 PM 1/12/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > From Peninei Halakhah 10.11 "Cooking after Baking" at >: > > Following the custom of most Jewish communities who are stringent > in this regard, one who wishes to dip a cookie in tea or coffee must > make certain that the teacup or coffee cup is a kli shlishi, since a > kli shlishi definitely does not cook. One who wishes to dip bread in > a bowl of soup may do so, as the ladle used to serve the soup can be > considered a kli sheni and the bowl can be considered a kli shlishi > (MB 318:45)[10]. > From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 13 08:03:48 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 11:03:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On 13/1/21 7:55 am, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > > How much difference can there be between the temperature of the water > in the urn and the temperature of the water in the second cup,? the > kli shlishi? Not very much.? The temperature of the water in the > second cup is certainly well over 113 F. So why do they say it does not > cook? Because that's what the halacha says. E.g. see SA Harav 551:34 who explicitly says that the heat of a keli shlishi or revi'i, even if it is yad soledes bo, has no power to cook, although according to some it still has the power to cause absorption and expulsion. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Jan 13 11:22:20 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:22:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cooking in a Kli Shlishi Message-ID: <03.F5.14965.3C84FFF5@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://ph.yhb.org.il/en/01-10-07/ There is a third type of vessel known as a kli shlishi. If one pours hot water or hot food from the pot in which it was cooked into another vessel, and from that vessel into a third one, that final container is a kli shlishi. The poskim agree that a kli shlishi is unable to cook anything.[6] [6]. In truth, some Acharonim were inclined to be stringent and avoid putting anything raw and easily cooked into a kli shlishi that is yad soledet bo. Thus states Shevitat Ha-Shabbat, Mevashel 23, based on Yere?im. This is also the position of azon Ish regarding kalei ha-bishul ( Hazon Ish, O 52:19). He maintains that as long as the water is hot, no matter how many times removed the vessel is from the original kli rishon, kalei ha-bishul become cooked. AHS 318:28 states this specifically with regard to tea. According to Chayei Adam 20:4, any vessel whose contents are so hot that they would burn someone is capable of cooking. However, according to most poskim, the principle that Bishul does not apply in a kli shlishi is absolute, and any kind of raw food may be introduced into a kli shlishi. MB 318:47 records this based on Pri Megadim. The accepted explanation is that this was the Sages? assumption ? cooking is inconceivable in a kli shlishi. Further, it seems to me that cooking in a vessel that people do not generally use for cooking would not be prohibited by Torah law, since the Torah prohibition applies only to cooking in the usual manner. Since one normally does not cook in a kli sheni, there is no Torah prohibition of putting raw food into a kli sheni. However, foods that cook easily are often cooked in a kli sheni or even by irui from a kli sheni. Therefore, if one places these foods in a kli sheni or pours water on them from a kli sheni, he transgresses a Torah prohibition. However, not even kalei ha-bishul are generally cooked in a kli shlishi, so there is never a Torah prohibition involved. And since in the vast majority of cases one cannot cook in a kli shlishi, the Sages did not prohibit cooking in one in any case.MA, MB 318:34, and Kaf Ha- chayim ?70 state that the halakha follows the first opinion presented in Tosafot, Shabbat 39a. This opinion states that even though a kli sheni does not cook, one may not place raw food into such a vessel because it resembles cooking. One may, however, add spices, since that does not resemble cooking. This is also the position of Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:5. In contrast, R. Ovadia Yosef, basing himself on a number of Rishonim and Acharonim, writes that the halakha follows the second opinion in Tosafot, according to which there is never a concern of resembling cooking in a kli sheni (Ye aveh Da?at 6:22). Some maintain that since we do not know what foods are considered kalei ha-bishul, we must be stringent and refrain from putting any foods into a kli sheni except those that we know are not kalei bishul (Yere?im; Smag). Others maintain that only specific foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul are a concern (Ran; Tur). Rema 318:5 states that the custom is to be stringent, as do MA 318:18; SAH 318:12; ayei Adam 20:4; MB 318:42; SSK 1:59. SA 318:5 cites both opinions and seems inclined to be lenient. This was the inclination of a number of poskim ? that one need be stringent only with foods that are known to cook easily ( azon Ish, O 52:18; Or Le-Tziyon 2:30:3). Yalkut Yosef 318:47 also records this as the position of Rambam and Maharam ibn abib. To simplify the matter, I wrote to be consistently stringent in the case of a kli sheni, and consistently lenient in the case of a kli shlishi. Even though it is agreed that one may not pour from a kli sheni onto kalei ha-bishul, nevertheless we have seen that according to most poskim, most foods are not kalei ha-bishul. Moreover, even those who are stringent consider the prohibition rabbinic, since one does not intend to cook. Additionally, pouring will only cook the outer layer of the food, which is less than the amount required to transgress a Torah prohibition, and according to Rashbam this is not considered cooking at all. Therefore, one should only be stringent and refrain from pouring from a kli sheni in the case of foods that are known to be kalei ha-bishul. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 13 11:42:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 14:42:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? In-Reply-To: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <63.42.11527.F0EEEFF5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210113194249.GA11959@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 07:55:09AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have never understood the assertion that "a kli shlishi definitely > does not cook." Me neither. But the melakhah is bishul, not cooking. For example, you have two eggs at the same temperature, one heated by a frying pan that used to be on the fire (toledos ha'ur), the other cooking in the sun (toledos hachamah). One is bishul, the other isn't. Or the hot springs of Teveriah. Chazal knew what they were and how hot the waters are. What they didn't know is whether they were warm from the volcanic processes in the ground of from the sun's heat. And despite the water being in a known resulting state, using the hot water to cook something else may or may not be bishul depending on what heated it. In general, our culture is too fixated on science to "get" halakhah. I've been saying this for a while on my own say-so, but R' David Lapin's "Matmanim" podcast had a few shiurim on this topic as well. (RDL is not to be confused with his older brother, R Daniel. R David studied under his uncle, R Elya Lopian, has semicha from R Unterman, founded the South African Instute of Business Ethics, and came in second in the hunt for a successor for the CR of the UK when R/D/L Sacks z"l retired. Matmanim is a daily 15 min shiur (6:45-7am) in the Raanana Kollel. He finds a hashkafic point, "buried trasure", in the day's daf. https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/1528778.rss Back to the point... ) I phrased it in terms of halakhah being about observed and observable reality. As it's our first-hand experiences -- those we had and those we can be held accountable for if we don't bother checking -- that impact us on the gut level, the deeper places of our psyche where decisions are made. RDLapin talks about Torah dealing with relationships, how we relate to an item, rather than facts about the item. When I emailed RDL about it, neither of us were sure whether we are saying the same thing or if there are subtle differences. Either way, we live in an era where progress is so tied to science and technology, that when we hear a word like "bishul" we look for a scientific definition of cooking. Rather, as Rashi says about cooking toledos hachamah, derekh bishul is part of the definition of the melakhah. But it would never be part of a scientific definition of cooking. To support that broad point with another example -- tal and mayim are two diferent of the 7 liquids. Both are H2O, though. Our leap to a physics or chemistry explanation when the relevant sciences may be more psychology and sociology gets in the way of understanding halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If a person does not recognize one's own worth, http://www.aishdas.org/asp how can he appreciate the worth of another? Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Jan 15 08:07:27 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 11:07:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos Message-ID: In response to my email about making coffee on Shabbos I received the following query: I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? From https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/08/making-tea-and-coffee-on-shabbos/ Instant tea: Some authorities permit using pre-cooked tea leaves. For example, it would be permitted to pour hot water onto the tea leaves before Shabbos and then to pour more hot water onto the same dry leaves to make tea on Shabbos. Some halachic authorities [14] apply the rule that there is no prohibition of cooking something that has already been cooked completely. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [15] accepts this as well, but adds that when one pre-cooks the tea before Shabbos, he must leave the hot water on the tea for a while to make sure that it is fully cooked. However, some halachic authorities [16] forbid this practice because the tea leaves are used purely to extract their taste. Therefore, as long as the tea leaves continue to emit taste, they are not considered already cooked. Keli Sheini and Keli Shelishi As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. However, if something is considered mi???kalei ha???bishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein [23] rule that we do not know what foods are mi???kalei ha???bishul, and therefore we need to be concerned that all foods fall into this category unless explicitly excluded in the Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli sheini, because they might be mi???kalei ha???bishul. The Aruch Ha???Shulchan [25] is certain that tea is mi???kalei ha???bishul. However, the Chazon Ish [26] argues that one need not be concerned that a given food is mi???kalei ha???bishul unless an explicit source says that it is. [27] R. Hershel Schachter writes that R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik made tea in a keli sheini because he did not consider tea leaves to be mi???kalei ha???bishul, [28] and R. Schachter himself rules this way as well. [29] A keli shelishi (a tertiary vessel, from which something was poured from a keli sheini) may provide a solution to those who are concerned that tea may cook in a keli sheini. Talmudic sources do not mention such a concept, nor do Rishonim (early authorities) distinguish between keli sheini and keli shelishi. To the best of my knowledge, the only Rishon who talks about a keli shelishi is R. Eliezer of Metz, [30] who explicitly says that a keli shelishi is the same as a keli sheini. Nevertheless, many Achronim (later authorities) [31] rule that a keli shelishi does not cook even food that is mi???kalei ha???bishul, or that one need not be concerned that something is mi???kalei ha???bishul when using a keli shelishi (but they hold that in a keli sheini one should be concerned). However, many halachic authorities [32] disagree. The Chazon Ish [33] argues that there is no basis to distinguish in theory between a keli sheini and a keli shelishi. However, he continues, there may be a practical distinction: the Chayei Adam [34] rules that a keli sheini that is extremely hot (yad nichveis bo) will cook. Based on this, the Chazon Ish says that we use a keli shelishi because by the time the item has been transferred twice, it is probably no longer as hot, and therefore one does not need to be concerned for this opinion of the Chayei Adam. [35] Making Tea Using Essence Mishna Berura [36] states that the best way to make tea on Shabbos is to make essence, meaning a very strong tea, before Shabbos. When one wants to drink tea on Shabbos, he can put hot water in the cup, and then add the cold essence. This solution works according to all views because everyone agrees that water is not mi???kalei ha???bishul and therefore will not cook in a keli sheini. ______________ Let me add the caveat that the Jewish Press often added when it came to matters of Halacha. "One should consult one's local competent Orthodox rabbi." YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 16 16:54:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:54:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Making Tea on Shabbos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210117005419.GD21719@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 11:07:27AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I have seen many people use a tea bag in a Kli > Shelishi on Shabbos. Is this Allowed??? > > From > ... > As a general rule, a keli sheini (a secondary > vessel, not the one which was on the fire) does > not cook for Hilchos Shabbos purposes. [17] > Tosafos [18] explain that since a keli sheini was > never on the fire, its walls are cooler and it cannot cook. > However, if something is considered mikalei > habishul (easy to cook), it will cook even in > a keli sheini. [19] The Ran, [20] Magen Avraham, > [21] Mishna Berura, [22] and R. Moshe Feinstein > [23] rule that we do not know what foods are > mikalei habishul, and therefore we need to > be concerned that all foods fall into this > category unless explicitly excluded in the > Talmud. [24] According to this view, one is > forbidden to put tea leaves even in a keli > sheini, because they might be mikalei > habishul... This interestingly touches on the topic I raised in my earlier email about the difference between the halachic concept of "bishul", which is defined by a set of experiences, and the scientific concept of cooking. Tea leaves don't cook easily. I spoke to importers. Making tea doesn't cook the tea leaves. Never mind "easily cooked", they don't cook at all. Which is why one can cold brew tea or make sun tea, without the water being warm, nowhere near yad soledes bo. One could make an argument that tea leaves are tavlin, flavorings that don't cook. After all, when it comes to halakhos like drinking before davening, tea is just flavored water. And from a scientific perspective, what is happening isn't cooking. BUT, is it bishul? Without a rigorous definition of bishul, we cannot rule out the idea that it includes the speed-up of making tea from hours to minutes that is caused by the water's heat. And for all I know, that as-yet-unspecified defining feature of bishul happens easily with tea leaves. (Or at least the crumbs of those leaves found in tea bags.) So, even while the tea experts say that making tea doesn't cook the leaves, that is not enough to force the conclusion that they aren't qalei bishul! Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Jan 15 06:04:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:04:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] May one make ices on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. May one make ices on Shabbos? A. The Dovev Meisharim (siman 55) writes that changing water into ice is forbidden on Shabbos. Moreover, he writes that even if the water was placed in the freezer before Shabbos, if it freezes on Shabbos, the ice would still be forbidden because of muktza. The change in form from liquid to solid turns it into a new entity which is muktza. The Chelkas Yaakov (OC 128) and many other poskim disagree on both these points. Not only is ice that forms on Shabbos not muktza, but it is not clear that there is any prohibition to make ice. This is because one does not actually make ice. All one does is place water in a cold environment and the ice forms on its own. Although one may not chop ice with your hands to actively melt it into water, one may place ice in a bowl and let it melt on its own into water. The same should be allowed in reverse. Water should be allowed to freeze into ice on its own. The Chelkas Yaakov is unsure of this last point, and therefore recommends not making ice on Shabbos unless there is a pressing need. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Jan 26 06:05:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 14:05:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to use mouthwash and perfume on Shabbos? A. In a previous Halacha Yomis we discussed the prohibition of molid rei?ach (causing the absorption of a fragrance or scent). Our current question revolves around whether this restriction applies to the human body as well. This is a matter of dispute among poskim. The Shevet Halevi (1:137) was asked whether using mouthwash on Shabbos is prohibited because of molid rei?ach. He notes that the Taz (511:8), Magen Avrohom (511:11) and Shulchan Aruch Harav (511:7) restrict washing hands with scented water on Shabbos because of molid rei?ach. Obviously, these poskim hold that molid rei?ach applies to the human body as well. However, the Mishnah Berurah (128:23) writes that many Acharonim did not accept this stringency of not using scented water on Shabbos. For example, the Chacham Tzvi (92) proves that molid rei?ach does not apply to the body, since Shulchan Aruch (OC 322:5) permits rubbing scented sticks between one's fingers to release the scent even though the fingers will absorb the fragrance. Accordingly, the Mishnah Berurah makes the following distinction. Adding scented oil to water on Shabbos is prohibited but washing one's hands with previously scented water is acceptable. Some poskim question whether the leniency of the Mishnah Berurah regarding handwashing with scented water applies to other parts of the body. Some suggest that there is room for greater leniency with respect to hands because the scent dissipates quickly (see Piskei Teshuvos 322:7). However, the Shevet Haleivi equates the entire body to hands and allows the use of mouthwash on Shabbos. Similarly, Shmiras Shabbos K?hilchaso (14:36) allows applying perfume on Shabbos (based on the Mishna Berurah), though he cautions against spraying it on clothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Jan 25 14:14:48 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:14:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government Message-ID: Please see pages 6 - 8 of Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" sIIRC Rav Yisroel Salanter would quietly say the prayer for the government if he wad davening in a place that did not say it. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 24 06:48:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 14:48:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Coming of Moshiach Message-ID: I have posted Rav Shimon Schwab's essay on this topic at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/coming_of_moshiach.pdf This essay was written in 1974. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:42:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:42:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: Why didn't Yeshoshua ask HKB"H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Jan 26 16:03:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:03:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Praying for the Government In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70ec8204-43df-9e0b-41fd-6f365220a817@sero.name> > *Click here to download "Visiting and Praying for a Non-Jew?" On page 5 of this pamphlet the author writes that the hooligans of Berachos 10a who harassed R Meir were not Jewish. He gives no source for this, and I wonder where he gets it. I have always assumed they were Jewish and have never seen anything saying otherwise. If they weren't I would have expected the gemara to say so. As far as the prayer for the king is concerned, historically the fact is that in the Russian empire it was not said except in the large shuls where the Czar was likely to know what was happening. But I understand that in the Austro-Hungarian empire it was said everywhere, because the Jews actually liked the Kaiser, and vice versa. The author claims that "The tefillah does not mention a single king but rather a kingdom, since this applies even when there is a democracy". This is just not the case. Every single siddur I have seen with Hanosen Teshua, except in the USA, uses the sovereign's name. He cites Tiferes Yisrael as his source, but the Tiferes Yisrael does not refer at all to the tefillah that is said, but only to the mishnah that recommends the practice. And he does not mention democracy, even though the USA and France existed in his day; what he says is that the mishnah includes countries that are ruled by a group of leaders. In my opinion this nusach is completely inappropriate to the USA, and those shuls here who wish to pray for the country or for the government should use a different nusach written especially for that country. I have seen such nuscha'os printed in various places, that are not simply rewrites of Hanosen Teshua. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 26 19:43:41 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:43:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction Message-ID: Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a brother? What was the value at that point? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Jan 27 06:27:08 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 16:27:08 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a Message-ID: There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is permitted even though it cooks. 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Many of the Rishonim state explicitly that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a metzius. The Rashba there in Shabbos 34b, the Yeraim quoted by many other rishonim and others. Tosafos there also seems to say this because they explain the difference between a kli rishon and a kli sheini based on metzius, that a kli rishon has hot walls while a kli sheini doesn't. The gemara about kalei habishul seems to support this position. The simple reading of the gemara (39a and other places) is that there are certain things that are easily cooked and you are chayav if you cook them in a kli sheini. If it was a din then how wcould you be chayav by kalei habishul? None of the Rishonim (that I saw) say explicitly that it is a din (however see Tosafos shabbos 42a where they discuss a hot bath and other Rishonim (Ramban, Ritva) which could be interpreted this way). However the Ohr Sameach (hilchos shabbos perek 9) goes with this idea explicitly, and explains it as follows. He says that the gemara states that cooking in halacha is defined as by fire or the result of a fire. He says that a kli sheini is so far removed from the fire that it can't be called toldos haeish and therefore is not considered cooking in halacha. This is similar to the din that cooking in the sun is not considered cooking. He explains that kalei habishul is a gezera because people do cook kalei habishul in a kli sheini therefore they prohibited it m'drabbanan. There are a number of practical differences in halacha regarding this question, I will mention 2 of them: 1. If the kli sheini is really hot. The Chayei Adam based on a Rambam in Maaser Sheni holds that if the kli sheini is boiling hot (if you touch it you will get burned) then the rule of kli sheini ayno mevashel doesn't apply. This is clearly going with 2, that it is a metzius, according to the Ohr Sameach it shouldn't matter. 2. Is there a kula of kli shlishi? The Mishna Berura quotes a Pri megadim who is meikel by a kli shlishi by kalei habishul, that you would be permitted to put them in a kli shlishi. The Chazon Ish and others disagree. they hold that there is no difference between a kli sheini and a kli shlishi based on Tosafos, both have cold walls and both have the same amount of heat. If you hold like 2 then the kula of kli shlishi makes no sense. However according to the Ohr Sameach that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a din and the humra by kalei habishul is only a din drabbanan, then it makes sense to say that the gezera was only made on a kli sheini and not on a kli shlishi. At first glance opinion 1 (din) seems much more logical then 2. It seems very difficult to say that the gemara is telling us a metzius without qualifying it. If the Chayei Adam is right how come the gemara didn't warn us about it. The Chayei Adam's scenario is not so uncommon and leads to an issur d'oraysa. The gemara's statement lends itself to be interpreted as a general principle in halacha not a metzius. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Jan 27 06:54:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:54:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?_Tu=92bishvat_is_the_Rosh_Hashanah_=28n?= =?windows-1252?q?ew_year=29_for_trees=2E_What_does_this_mean=3F?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Thursday, January 28th, will be Tu?bishvat, (the fifteenth day of the month of Shvat). Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? A. There is a seven-year cycle of terumos and ma?aseros (various tithes) for produce that grows in the land of Israel. To determine which tithes must be separated, one must know in which year the produce grew. The calendar year for fruit begins on Tu?bishvat. If a fruit reached a certain stage of development called ?onas ha?maaser? before Tu?bishvat, this fruit belongs to last year?s crop and should be tithed accordingly. Fruit that reaches the stage of ?onas ha?maaser? only after Tu?bishvat, belongs to the new year and must be tithed accordingly. One exception to this rule is the esrog, which is tithed according to the year in which it is picked, regardless of when it reaches ?onas ha?maaser? (Shulchan Aruch YD 331:125-126). Tu?bishvat is relevant outside of Israel as well. Tu?bishvat plays a role in the counting of years as relates to the laws of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years). This will be discussed further in tomorrow?s Halacha Yomis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 16:07:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:07:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128000739.GE25301@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 04:27:08PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini: There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli > sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is > permitted even though it cooks. Brisk. > 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in > general a kli sheini doesn't cook. Telzh. Except that I would say, "it isn't mevasheil". You cannot assume bishul has the same limits as cooking. We are talking about a tradition in which a bat is a kind of owf. Let's look at ofos for a second, because I find it easier to illustrate my proposed general rule with a noun. We say that an "owf" is a "bird", but that's really only shorthand. One syllable is much easier to teach with than having to say and write "flying living thing". There is still an empirical fact being described. One needn't say that owf, e.g. in the laws of owfos tehoros, is just a category with no empirical basis. But the fact isn't the one we have an easy at-hand English word. Wrong culture. Similarly here, bishul needn't be some Brisker chalos sheim. But it could be a range of physical changes in a substance defined by the use of fire and not e.g. toledos hachamah. I mean, Chazal knew what changes chamei Teveriah were capable of, they just didn't know how the hot springs were hot. But they still made whether it is mevasheil depend on whether it was heated by the sun or by volcanic processes When you get to a keli sheini, you are at quite a remove from the fire, although the heat must be fire-derived heat. OTOH, when you are dealing with kalei bishul, you are closer to the idea of trigerring a physical change. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger What we do for ourselves dies with us. http://www.aishdas.org/asp What we do for others and the world, Author: Widen Your Tent remains and is immortal. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Albert Pine From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 27 11:26:42 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:26:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> I don't know each stage of Tu biShvat's evolution. Was it always a holiday? In the gemara, Tu biShvat is more like a shiur -- how do you know which fruit go to which terumos uma'aseros? But by the end of the geonim, tachanun was skipped on Tu biShvat. So, even if it wasn't always a holiday, it started turning into one pretty early. Well before the *publication* (so to speak) of the Zohar. So it's not of Qabbalistic roots. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From driceman at optimum.net Wed Jan 27 16:36:43 2021 From: driceman at optimum.net (David Riceman) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:36:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >> RMB: > > There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh. > >> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >> sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is >> permitted even though it cooks. > > Brisk. > >> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. > > Telzh. Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos). Many years ago one of my rebbeim suggested that microwaves and solar hot water heaters weren?t bishul d?orayysa because they were uncommon, but that their status might change as they became more common. David Riceman From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 10:18:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Shevat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128181856.GE7499@aishdas.org> I asked on Areivim about the origin of Tu biShvat as a yom tov even before getting to questions about the Tu biShvat Seder and how kosher is the Seifer Chemdas Yamim. Someone emailed me this nice summary in reply. I wanted to share with the chevrah. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5009491 Below is the article from after of a discussion of Tu biShvat in Chazal as a shiur for terumos uma'aseros until they run out of history and talk about contemporary custom. About Chemdas Yamim... it's enough that it is a machloqes acharonim whether the book (1) should be treated as Sabbatean, (2) is kosher because its acceptance by so many Mequbalim Qedoshim that is happens not to contain any of the author's Sabbatean heresy (R Chaim Palaggi, Turkey, 19th cent CE), or (2) is a holy book written by R Yisrael Yaaqov al-Gazi. The way academia is structured, particularly what it takes to get published and publish-or-perish there is a built in bias toward debunking things. Too much depends on coming up with novella and their Truthiness. I am therefore skeptical of an academic consensus that shows that the benighted masses outside their ivory towers are wrong. Could be good scholarship, but there are negi'os. So I wouldn't just assume their conclusions are authoritative. (Truthiness, coined by then comedy news editorialist Stephen Colbert, to describe the things we believe because they sound true because we would like them to be true.) There are numerous examples from Middle Eastern history and Biblical Archeology I can point to, where it seems clear that out of two equally plausible theories, the author was biased to pick the one that would dethrone Yeishu. (Like, did the Judean intelligensia captured with Yechaniah teach them about the idea of a messiah and messianic era, or did we get it from Zoroastrianism? Well, saying it's not in original Judaism devalues Oso haIsh, so...) Even when it comes to some Torah journals, I got tired of picking through the articles that seem so plausible until I realized I liked them because of that feeling superiori to the benighted masses or just some clever and very Truthy. Anyway, here's the relevant half of the Chabad.org post, back on topic about Tu biShvat. Tir'u baTov! -Micha Who "Invented" the Holiday on 15 Shevat? Yehuda Shurpin chabad.org ... Yet, neither the Mishnah nor the Talmud tell us about any special celebrations or commemorations associated with the day. Earliest Celebration One of the earliest sources for the 15th of Shevat being a celebratory day is a pair of ancient liturgical poems that were found in the Cairo genizah, a trove of old Torah texts, documents and manuscripts discovered in the 19th century. The poems, composed by Rabbi Yehuda Ben Hillel Halevi around the 10th century, were meant to be added to the prayer service of the day.[9] In a response to a community that wished to establish a fast day on the 15th Shevat, Rabbeinu Gershom (c. 960-1040) explained that just as one does not fast on the other days that are called "the beginning of the year" in the Mishnah, so too, one does not fast on the 15th of Shevat.[10] Additionally, we find in early sources that one doesn't recite penitential prayers on the 15th of Shevat, just as one doesn't recite them on other holidays.[11] Eating Fruits In addition to not fasting and not reciting any penitential prayers, there is also a custom to eat fruits on this day. The first to mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) in his work Tikun Yissachar. This custom was popularized by the Kabbalists and subsequently cited in many halachic works.[12] The somewhat controversial Kabbalistic work of unknown authorship Pri Eitz Hadar (first published in Venice in 1728) was also very influential in spreading the custom to eat fruits on this day. The work includes various texts that one would recite when eating the different fruits. However, the common custom is not to recite these texts when eating fruits on the 15th of Shevat... ... [9] Eretz Yisrael, vol. 4, p. 138. [10] See Responsa of Rabbi Meir of Rottenbug (Prague ed.) 5. [11] See, for example, Maharil, Chilukei Haftorot; Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 131:6. [12] See Magen Avraham, Orach Chaim 131:16; Hashlamah to Shulchan Aruch Harav, Orach Chaim 136:8; Mishnah Berurah 131:31. From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 28 05:44:31 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:44:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?How_does_Tu=92bishvat_impact_the_counti?= =?windows-1252?q?ng_of_years_of_orlah?= Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. How does Tu?bishvat impact the counting of years of orlah (prohibition of eating fruit from a tree during its first three years)? A. The Torah states, ?When you enter the land and plant any tree for food, you shall regard its fruit as forbidden. Three years it shall be forbidden for you, not to be eaten.? (Vayikra 19:23) From here we learn that one may not eat or derive benefit from fruit that grew during the first three years of a tree?s existence. This fruit is called orlah. This prohibition applies both in the land of Israel as well as in the diaspora. In Israel, fruit that grows in the fourth year has a special kedusha (sanctity) known as ?neta revai?. When calculating a tree?s first three years of existence for orlah, the years need not be complete. Rather, if a new tree grew for a minimum of thirty days before Rosh Hashana, this is treated as the first year of the tree's existence. It is assumed that a tree does not begin to take root and grow until fourteen days have elapsed after planting. Therefore, if a tree is planted on or before the 15 day of Av, which is 44 days before Rosh Hashana, the tree is considered one year old on Rosh Hashana, and Rosh Hashanah marks the beginning of the tree?s second year of growth. If a tree is planted less than 44 days before Rosh Hashanah, one must wait until the following Rosh Hashanah (more than a year) to complete the first year of orlah. However, even after the third Rosh Hashanah marks the completion of three years, the fruit which blossoms in the fourth year before Tu?bishvat is treated as orlah as well. This is because this fruit was nourished from sap that the tree produced before Rosh Hashana. If fruit blossomed after Tu?bishvat of the fourth year, we assume that the fruit was nourished from the current year?s sap, and the fruit is not orlah. The Shach (YD 294:10) quotes the Rosh who notes that in our climate, trees don?t ordinarily blossom before Tu?bishvat, so one may assume that all fruit that is found on the tree in the fourth year is not orlah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Jan 27 20:01:57 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> References: <20210127192642.GD25301@aishdas.org> Message-ID: As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard date is required to separate them? I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th. Or is that actually the general case, and the exact date only matters in a freak occurrence? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Jan 28 03:35:39 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 06:35:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> I have often wondered the same thing about so many leaders, both Jewish and not. The precedent set by appointing Yehoshua seems to be a no-brainer, in my view. I am so often disheartened when I see an organization fall apart and descend into total factionalism when its leader passes away. So much strife could be avoided simply by grooming a successor, teaching him the required skills, and making sure that he has the allegiance of the membership. Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. It almost seems like a dereliction of duty. I'd cite examples, but that would surely spur too many bickering side-comments. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Jan 28 14:04:53 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:04:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210128220453.GA13382@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 07:36:43PM -0500, David Riceman via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli >>> sheini is not called cooking... >> Brisk. >>> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in >>> general a kli sheini doesn't cook. >> Telzh. > Or 3: it is a convention. Bishul on Shabbos is how people normally cook > (IIRC RMF suggests this in one of his tshuvos)... I would think that's a metzi'us question, but defining the issur in terms of derekh bishul rather than bishul. That certainly fits the gemara's language, except for the one-word name of the melakhah. In terms of Brisk vs Telzh.... It would still fit under Telzh, in that it's explaining halakhah in terms of realia. Brisk would stop all explanations at halachic categories. More like the "halakhah states ... is not called ..." of number 1. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Imagine waking up tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp with only the things Author: Widen Your Tent we thanked Hashem for today! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From seinfeld at jsli.org Thu Jan 28 14:58:02 2021 From: seinfeld at jsli.org (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 From: Zev Sero > As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's > climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard > date is required to separate them? > I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in > mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't > matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that time and having a suffik about it's maaser. From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Jan 28 20:00:07 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 04:00:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Succession Planning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <<< Why didn?t Yeshoshua ask HKB?H (or do so himself) to appoint a successor as his teacher Moshe Rabbeinu had done? >>> Yes, this is sometimes not possible, as when there's already a significant minority who are dissatisfied with the current leader. And other times, there are too many qualified candidates to choose from. But all too often, the leader doesn't even attempt to name a successor, apparently content to let his followers fight it out among themselves when he's gone. --------------------------------- Yes and one could posit a number of reasons-some cognitive and some not. That?s what I wonder about. Behavioral psychology offers some reasons for mere mortals but?. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Jan 28 23:16:38 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 02:16:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tu'bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/1/21 5:58 pm, Alexander Seinfeld via Avodah wrote: > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:01:57 -0500 > From: Zev Sero >> As a matter of metzius, are there any fruits that, in Eretz Yisrael's >> climate, reach onas hama'asros by the middle of Shevat, so that a hard >> date is required to separate them? > >> I would have thought the logical place to separate the years would be in >> mid-winter when there are no fruit growing anyway, so that it doesn't >> matter whether the exact date is the 1st or the 15th.... > > The Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 14ab) tells of R' Akiva picking an Esrog at that > time and having a suffik about it's maaser. Yes, but esrogim are different because they stay on the tree all year, and are counted according to the year in which they are picked. That rules does not apply to any other fruit. [Email #2. -micha On 28/1/21 1:18 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah [forwaded from chabad.org]: > The first to > mention this custom (although it seems to have already existed in > his day) was Rabbi Yissachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan (fl. 1539-1572) > in his work Tikun Yissachar. See the Seforim blog post that RYL linked to, which cites earlier sources that Rabbi Shurpin's sources were unaware of. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From marty.bluke at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 02:04:51 2021 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:04:51 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] R e: May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread Message-ID: Rav Meir Twersky in Beis Yitchak suggested this as pshat in tosafos. He suggests that when tosafos explains the difference between kli rishon and kli sheini as whether the walls are hot it is not based on metzius but rather whether it is normal to cook that way. It is normal to cook in a kli rishon because the walls are hot and therefore it is prohibited. It is not normal to cook in a kli sheini because the walls are cold and therefore permitted. Likewise, by kalei habishul since they cook easily people cook then in a kli sheini and therefore you are chayav. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 13:47:11 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:47:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha Message-ID: . Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the very first thing we say after benching. ???????? ????????? ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ??????????? ??? ????????. It is composed of two similar phrases, the first of which contains the preposition "el" and the second uses the preposition "al". And yet, despite this contrast, the great majority of English Tehilims and Haggadas translate both of them as "upon". The main exception is The Psalms, with the perush of Rav RSR Hirsch. He is emphatic that "el" must be translated as "toward" and not as ?upon?. He explains that the first half refers to the nations who have merely failed to recognize God, and we pray for His anger to go *toward* them, that they might come to know and understand. It is only in the second half, which refers to the evil kingdoms who have tried to destroy us, that we pray for God's anger to pour down *upon* them. Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name". To me, both can refer to people who are simply ignorant of Hashem, or perhaps both can refer to people who actively deny Hashem. But I don't see how one group is more or less evil than the other. Perhaps he gets it by contrasting "nations" and "kingdoms". If anyone can offer ideas, I'd appreciate it. In any case, it seems clear to me that the author of this Tehillim strove to distinguish between "el" and "al", and those who recite the Haggada in English might want to take note of this. Hat tip to ArtScroll's Interlinear Tehillim, from which I've been reciting Tehillim recently. True to the advertising, I have found it very helpful in understanding what I'm saying. It really does take no more than a glance to see what the more difficult words mean. A few days ago, I wasn't even paying much attention to the English - not on a conscious level at least! But my peripheral vision was surprised to see "el" being translated as "upon", and it jarred me into further research. I will also note that although the preposition "el" is best translated as "to" or "towards" in the vast majority of cases, there are indeed some exceptions, as noted by Rashi on Bereshis 20:2. It is possible that some might consider Tehillim 79:6 to be in that category, but in my view, the contrast between "el" and "al" makes that very unlikely. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 04:27:13 2021 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 23:27:13 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Milk is Produced also by non-Kosher parts of the Cow Message-ID: The Gemara Chullin 69a documents a very strange discussion. R Yirmiyah asks - is the milk from a cow that has an Issur Yotzeh, Kosher? An Issur Yotzeh is generated when a foetus in utero extends a limb to the outside and then the mother is Shechted. That limb is permanently prohibited and cannot be made Kosher. The rest of the foetus is Kosher. The Gemara explains - ALL milk ought to be Assur, because it comes from a living animal and is like Eiver Min HaChay, and only by force of a special Limmud is it Kosher. On the one hand perhaps that also permits the milk of the cow with the Issur Yotzeh on the other hand, perhaps the Torah only permits milk from a prohibited source which CAN BE revoked via Shechita, whereas the Issur Yotzeh cannot ever be revoked which makes the milk Assur. Why is the Issur Yotzeh different from the Cheilev and Gid that are present in every cow that produces milk? Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:04:49 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:04:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yaakov's Reaction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220449.GB31611@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 03:43:41AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any explanation why when the brothers reported back from Egypt, Yaakov's > first response was why did you tell the viceroy you were family/had a > brother? What was the value at that point? isn't a parent supposed to make sure children learn from their mistakes rather than repeat them? Knowing to watch what you're saying has broad applicability in life. If Yaaqov makes sure they see they have that problem, they are that less likely to say too much in other situations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 2 14:01:31 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 17:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] min hatorah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210202220131.GA31611@aishdas.org> On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 05:22:09PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote: > He begins his chapter on Mevo HaTalmud by saying that most matters learned > from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash, based upon > the references you and I have cited, as well as several others. So, it > comes out that Chazal had a kabalah that these matters were in Torah > Shebe-al Peh MiSinai, but knew that they were not indicated in Toras Moshe, > or could not find any such indication. But they pointed out that they found > that they were eventually committed to either explicit or drash-indicated > writing in Nach. An exception can be found in an oft-cited pasuq, in Yeshiah 57:13 (used by many in / as an introduction to Shabbos morning Qiddush). Mentions a number of shevusim, including masa umatan. I can see how a pasuq in Tanakh can be cited to show there is some TSBP that was already in place and in practice by the time the navi recorded the. But how can we prove whether those pre-existing dinim are really deOraisa? Seems that "mo "most matters learned from Nach have the same status as anything learned from Chumash" could have numerous exceptions. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:02:59 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:02:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 3 05:04:49 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:04:49 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rav Soloveitchik Message-ID: Thoughts on the following as applied to Rabbi JB Soloveitchik? James Gleick-"There are two kinds of geniuses: the 'ordinary' and the 'magicians'. An ordinary genius is a fellow whom you and I would be just as good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how his mind works. Once we understand what they've done, we feel certain that we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is a magician of the highest caliber." The Feynman Algorithm: Write down the problem. Think real hard. Write down the solution. The Feynman algorithm was facetiously suggested by Murray Gell-Mann, a colleague of Feynman, in a New York Times interview. KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 16:57:10 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:57:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee Message-ID: . This past August, R' Yitzhok Levine cited the OU's "Halacha Yomis": > From https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/i-will-be-travelling-and-would-like-to-know-if-there-is-a-concern-of-bishul-akum-with-coffee-a-consumers-question > I will be travelling and would like to know if there is a concern > of bishul akum with coffee? (A consumer's question) > OU Kosher Certification > > Ostensibly, the prohibition of bishul akum should apply to coffee. As > previously explained, a cooked food which cannot be eaten raw and is > "oleh al shulchan melachim" (served at fancy dinners) requires bishul > Yisroel. Raw coffee beans are inedible, a... > > See the above URL for more. In a subsequent post, I quoted the conclusion of that paragraph, which was: > Nonetheless, the Pri Chodosh writes that brewed coffee need > not be bishul Yisroel, since coffee is primarily water, and > water does not require bishul Yisroel. I have been uneasy with the idea that "primarily water" could be sufficient reason to downgrade the chashivus of a food to the point where it would be exempt from Bishul Yisroel. R' Micha Berger (in this same thread) pointed out that Bishul Yisroel and Chamar Medina seem to have different standards of chashivus. Another halacha that may be related to the above appeared in today's Halacha Yomis, at https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/must-terumah-and-maaser-tithes-be-separated-from-tea-or-herbal-leaves-that-are-grown-in-israel > Must Terumah and Ma'aser (tithes) be separated from tea or > herbal leaves that are grown in Israel? > > Tosofos (Nida 50a s.v. Kol) writes that there are two categories > of spices with regard to Teruma and Ma'aser: a) Spices that are > eaten together with other foods. These require the separation of > teruma and ma'aser. b) Spices that are removed after the cooking > and are discarded. These do not require Teruma and Ma'aser. It > should follow that tea and herbal leaves do not require separation > of Teruma and Ma'aser since the tea leaves are removed after > brewing and are not consumed. Indeed, many Poskim rule this way. > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > and Ma'aser should be separated. I can't help but wonder if Rav Sternbuch might hold - because the tea leaves are significant - that tea *is* subject to Bishul Yisroel. If he does not, that might lend weight to my suspicion that "primarily water" is merely code for "liquids" in the Mimetic Tradition, i.e., that liquids simply are not a concern. (In the Textual Tradition, "primarily water" is an exemption from Bishul Yisroel because water is normally eaten raw, which might not apply to tea leaves and coffee beans.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 3 22:47:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 01:47:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Concern of bishul akum with coffee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > However, Rav Sternbuch (Teshuvos V'Hanhagos 4:250) writes that tea > > leaves are not the same as spices that are discarded. Ordinarily, > > a spice is added to add flavor to another food. Since it is not > > the main ingredient and it is discarded, it lacks importance, and > > Teruma and Ma'aser are not required. On the other hand, tea leaves > > are more than a flavoring agent. The leaves are the essential > > ingredients in tea. Because the tea leaves are significant, Teruma > > and Ma'aser should be separated. In that case why isn't tea ha'adamah, just like vegetable soup? The reason given is because there is no substance of the leaves in the tea, unlike soup where the vegetables are left in it and are consumed with it, and thus constitute the ikar. But according to this that shouldn't matter. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 4 05:45:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? A. This is a complex question, as it is touches on a number of principals that emerge from halachic discussions about the brachos for vegetable soup, fruit soup and beer. Important responsa on this topic were composed about 300 years ago by some of the great poskim of the eighteenth century. One of the first recorded teshuvos on this topic is found in Perach Mateh Aharon (siman 40), who ruled that the appropriate beracha is shehakol. Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt?l (1670-1744) disagrees. He writes in Panim Me?iros (2:190) that borei pri ha?adomah would be more appropriate, given that tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages. Indeed, Rav Meir notes that when visiting the city of Worms Germany, he observed the great chasid, Rav Shmuel Shatin, reciting borei pri ha?adomah on a cup of tea. Rav Meir challenged Rav Shmuel that it is customary to recite a shehakol. Rav Shmuel responded that a minhag that was not established by Rabbonim has no validity. Nonetheless, the Panim Me?eiros concludes a long teshuva by saying that while in theory he sides with Rav Shmuel, but in practice, he does not wish to break with common practice and recites shehakol. Subsequent poskim have defended the custom to recite a shehakol on coffee and tea with various explanations, and that is almost universally accepted. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 4 11:46:25 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 14:46:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 01:45:06PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? ... > Rav Meir Eizenshtat zt"l (1670-1744) ... writes in Panim Me'iros > (2:190) that borei pri ha'adomah would be more appropriate, given that > tea and coffee are grown specifically for use as beverages... I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. A related (I think) case in the SA is that of date butter (OC 202:7). Date butter is "ha'eitz" for Sepharadim, because date butter was a primary use of dates in the Mechaber's day. The Rama holds the safeiq is real enough to justify "shehakol" as the catch-all. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger How wonderful it is that http://www.aishdas.org/asp nobody need wait a single moment Author: Widen Your Tent before starting to improve the world. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anne Frank Hy"d From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 11:39:20 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 19:39:20 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael Message-ID: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. Joseph (who has been saying sheasani yisrael for many decades) Sent from my iPhone From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Thu Feb 4 21:13:22 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 05:13:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com>, Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? > > ----------------------------- > I responded: I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. > --------------------------------------------- > RJR replied: My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Me (again): So was mine. Joseph From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Feb 4 19:54:26 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 03:54:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: RJR wrote (39/10): ? About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. It has stuck with me a long time.? ----------------------------- I?m not sure I understand. Aren?t we taught that a Yisrael, even one who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth no matter what we do. --------------------------------------------- My post was lhashkafa, lmaaseh CLOR :-) Shabbat Shalom Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 4 17:26:49 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 20:26:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> On 4/2/21 2:46 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel > reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for saying shehakol. To the best of my understanding it's simply an amhoratzus that started because people didn't know what it was. Remember that edible chocolate was only invented around 1800, so most poskim never heard of it. But the issue is very different from that of tea and coffee. The poskim did know what those are, and said they are shehakol because the leaves and beans are discarded and not consumed at all. That's why I was surprised to read an opinion that they are subject to bishul akum. That's obviously not the case with chocolate. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 5 08:40:44 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 16:40:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? A. Shulchan Aruch (OC 182:2; 272:9; 289:2; 296:2) writes that if there is no wine available, one may recite Birchas Hamazon, Kiddush (see last paragraph for further clarification about kiddush) or Havdalah on a beverage that is prevalent in that location. This is known as Chamar Medinah (the local wine). Do tea or coffee qualify? Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yebia Omer 3:19 and Yechaveh Daas 2:38) cites some Acharonim who maintain that a beverage is only considered Chamar Medinah if it is intoxicating. Based on this, Rav Ovadia Yosef rules that one should not recite Havdalah on tea or coffee. Only alcoholic beverages such as beer are acceptable. This was also the opinion of Rav Chaim Volozhener. The Rogotchover suggests that even if it is necessary for chamar medina to be intoxicating, milk can be considered an intoxicating beverage based on the Gemara (Kerisos 13b)that a cohen may not perform the avodah in the Beis Hamikdash after drinking milk. (Presumably, milk is intoxicating in the sense that it causes drowsiness and affects a person?s mental state.) However, Rav Y.D. Soloveichik (Mi?peninei Harav p. 87) rejects the comparison between avodah and chamar medinah. Milk invalidates a cohen for avodah because it causes drowsiness, while chamar medinah is limited to actual intoxication. On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea. One may add milk to their tea or coffee, but it is not necessary. Igeros Moshe explains that these drinks are similar to wine because they are served to guests to demonstrate distinction or respect, and not only to quench one?s thirst. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 279:9) writes that there are different opinions whether chamar medina may be used for Kiddush at night and during the day. The Mishnah Berurah (272:27) rules that Chamar Medinah may be used for Shabbos daytime kiddush, but should not be used for Friday night Kiddush, If wine is not available, Friday night Kiddush should be recited on challah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:29:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:29:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> I know people in YU circles who make ha'eitz on chocolate for the parallel >> reason. R SZ Auerback (Minchas Shelomo vol I 92:1) rules ha'eitz. > I say ha'eitz on chocolate, and have never seen any legitimate source for > saying shehakol... Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. And that when eating chocolate covered raisins or nuts, both are primary. But concludes that you should make the ha'eitz or ha'adamah on something else first and then the shehakol on the chocolate. (IM OC 3:31) That does imply the chocolate alone would be shehakol, no? (I don't know, maybe he discusses the case of chocolate directly. I can only report on what Bar Ilan helped me find.) Gut Voch! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - George Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sat Feb 6 16:30:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:30:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210207003041.GB20855@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 05, 2021 at 04:40:44PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > > Q. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? > On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea... The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in Litta. Gut Voch! -Micha From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 6 17:45:42 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 20:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> On 6/2/21 7:29 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Take a look at Sha'arei Teshuvah OC 202:19, who gives his sources. > https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei Teshuva's day. He, like his source the Divrei Yosef (R Yosef Ergas, 1685-1730), as well as the Pri Chadash on the question of bishul akum and other acharonim, were all referring to hot chocolate, which was the only kind that existed in their day. Hot chocolate is a closer question than tea or coffee, because the cocoa itself is drunk and not removed. But Divrei Yosef compares it to Shesisa, a drink made with flour, which the gemara says is mezonos if it's thick but shehakol if it's the consistency of a drink, even though the flour is in it and not removed. > Teshuvos veHanhagos 1:187 says that since cacao wouldn't be eaten without > all those other ingrediants that make it chocolate, it's a shehakol. Actually that is not his sevara, but one he quotes from the Minchas Shlomo as a suggestion, but that the Minchas Shlomo himself questions since it's a clear halacha that ground ginger mixed with sugar is ha'adama (it says ha'etz but that must be a typo), since ginger cannot be eaten on its own. Aderaba, that is the greatest argument for it being ha'etz, since that is not just the ikar way to eat the fruit but the only way. Even if the sugar is the majority, it comes only to make the fruit edible, so it's batel to it. His own sevara for shehakol is that the taste of the sugar and other ingredients is the ikar, and not that of the chocolate at all! But it seems to me that anyone who eats chocolate will testify that it's not so. It's not chocolate-flavored sugar, it's sugar-flavored chocolate, even when the chocolate is less than 50%, kol shekein in those bars that boast on the label of being 55% or 70% or 90% cocoa solids. By the way, he quotes Pachad Yitzchak quoting Yad Malachi, a talmid of R Yosef Ergas, who paskens (unlike his rebbe) to say Ha'eitz on hot chocolate! > RMF seems to assume the berakhah is a shehakol. That's just it. He doesn't consider the question and pasken on it. He just assumes it. Who knows whether when he wrote that he had any idea what chocolate is. That's my contention about why the worlds says shehakol; they just don't know what it is, or else they're relying on their predecessors who didn't know what it was. None of them considered it. They came to America and found it there in the stores, and assumed it was just another kind of candy, and thus subsumed into the question of sugar, which we pasken is shehakol. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Feb 7 10:28:55 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 18:28:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Between Science and Torah Message-ID: What precisely is the relationship between science and Torah? Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L, deals with this issue in his commentary on Shemos 19:20 in Rav Schwab on Chumash. I have posted what he wrote at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/science_torah.pdf YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 7 14:25:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 17:25:16 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> Message-ID: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 > > Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei > Teshuva's day... We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. As I see it, if cacao is shehakol in the ST's day, the same would be true of a chocolate bar in ours. Both are the usual form of consumption for the respective times. (If anything, the bar is MORE processed than the drink.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The trick is learning to be passionate in one's http://www.aishdas.org/asp ideals, but compassionate to one's peers. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 17:29:15 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but > only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in > Litta. It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of drinking it. In fact, he contrasts this with several other drinks (seltzer, lemonade, or water with honey mixed in) which are merely "mayim metukanim - enhanced water", and he specifically says that what makes "teh matok" different is that (a) it was cooked, and (b) it is not *called* "water". My conclusion is that the AhS doesn't seem to care whether the tea is sweet or not. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 06:39:13 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:39:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? In-Reply-To: <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> References: <20210204194624.GA28606@aishdas.org> <2dba5c63-9019-4f58-11b8-69c0d6142d63@sero.name> <20210207002902.GA20855@aishdas.org> <6a391ec6-e356-8a19-2e52-c3c40a074d54@sero.name> <20210207222515.GA14239@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/21 5:25 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19 >> Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei >> Teshuva's day... > We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the > distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate, > liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their > usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature. There is a fundamental difference between food and drink, which is the entire basis of those who say shehakol on tea, coffee, or hot chocolate. In the case of tea and coffee there is deemed to be no substance of the leaf/berry in the water. In the case of chocolate the sevara given to say shehakol is the analogy to the gemara's "shesisa". Shesisa, even if it is merely a thick liquid, is mezonos; kol shekein if it's solid. The same should be true of chocolate. How processed it is should be irrelevant, since this is the normal way the fruit is eaten, just like ginger. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 8 13:03:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:03:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 08:29:15PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you > might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude > unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of > drinking it. Well, in OC 89:23 he notes that some prohibit drinking tea with sugar before davening -- but only wwith sugar. He is unsure why they would say that, since the sugar is just to give the hot drink a little flavor. How does that make sweatened tea "akhilah"? Others allow tea drunk through a sugar cube, but not if the sugar is dissolved in the tea. (One of the places where the AhS cites the MB.) There, he does conclude "ve'eino iqar". I am just pointing out that elsewhere in the AhS, tea and tea with sugar are different things. So, I wouldn't just assume he added the word "matoq" here simply because that's the norm. (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. I would want evidence it even was their norm. In siman 89, he gives the din for tea but if the tea is with sugar.... As opposed to if the se'if saw a need to call the first case "tea without sugar" or "unsweatened tea".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 8 05:19:06 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 13:19:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Proper Method of Torah Research Message-ID: The following is from the fourth footnote to RSRH's Eighteenth Letter in the Nineteen Letters. A word here about the proper method of Torah research. Two revelations are before us: nature and Torah. The same method of investigation must apply to both. In studying nature, all phenomena confront us as given data, and we can only endeavor to find the laws applying to them, and their interrelation, a posteriori-by starting from these phenomena themselves. The proof of the truth of your theory, or rather of the probability of its correctness, can be provided only by nature itself, since you will have to test your theory against nature's phenomena in order to be able to state with the highest possible degree of certainty that the facts indeed confirm your assumptions, i.e., that every phenomenon observed can be explained according to your theory. In nature, one single contradicting fact can invalidate your theory, and you must, therefore, make sure to obtain as much information as possible about the phenomena that you are studying, so that, as far as possible, you will have all the facts at your disposal. Moreover, even where we are not able to ascertain the laws and interrelations governing any given phenomenon, the phenomenon itself remains a fact. All this applies equally to the study of Torah. Just as heaven and earth are facts, so, to us, are the Torah21 and its commandments. In the Torah, just as in nature, the ultimate cause is God. In the Torah, just as in nature, no fact can be denied, even though we may comprehend neither its cause nor its relation to others; instead, we must persevere, in the Torah as in nature, to trace God's wisdom which manifests itself in them. In studying the Torah, then, we must begin by accepting the Torah's commandments in their entirety as given facts; we must study them and their relationship to each other and to the aspects of life that they govern. Then we must test the soundness of our theories by their conformity with the provisions of the Law; and, here too, the highest possible degree of certainty is obtained if everything fits our theory. Moreover, just as the phenomena of nature remain facts even though we may not have found their causes or interrelationships, and just as their existence does not depend on the results of our investigation-rather, the reverse is true-so, too, the commandments of the Torah are law even if we have not uncovered the cause and interrelationships of even a single one, and our fulfillment of the commandments in no way depends on the results of our investigation. Only the commandments belonging to the category of Edos, which seek to convey insights and to affect the emotions, remain incomplete without adequate investigation. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Feb 8 13:56:10 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:56:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? In-Reply-To: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> References: <20210208210302.GA5850@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 8/2/21 4:03 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in > Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. Sugar was quite expensive there, while across the border in Galicia it was cheap. That's why Litvaks make their gefilte fish and luction kugel salty and Galicianers make them sweet. The Baal Hatanya, who lived on his pay as the town maggid, first in Liozna and then in Liadi, once asked the town council for a raise, because after much thought he had come to the conclusion that sugar is a necessity and not a luxury (hechrochios and not mosros). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 9 07:30:04 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 15:30:04 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Honoring Parents Message-ID: Please see the article at https://vosizneias.com/2021/02/09/honoring-parents-and-a-new-interpretation-from-rav-elyashiv-ztl/ [https://vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rabbi-Yosef-Shalom-Elyashiv-1024x640-1.jpg] Honoring Parents, and a New Interpretation from Rav Elyashiv Zt"l - Vos Iz Neias by Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com Last week, parshas Yisro, we leined the aseres hadibros. In them, of course, is the Mitzvah of Kivud Av v?Aim ? honoring one?s parents. The Torah itself assures us that one who is careful with it will merit long life ? something very apropos during this pandemic. The Talmud [?] vosizneias.com >From this article Speech ? Children must speak softly to their parents, in a calm tone, and using the most honorable terminology and modes of address. (See Kiddushin 30a,b). On the other hand, if one speaks abusively to one?s parents he or she will earn a place in Gehenam, rachmana litzlan. Action ? The Mishna Brurah (301:4) indicates that, if possible, it is a Mitzvah to greet one?s parents every day. There are also numerous actions that are obvious that must be done regularly, for example, taking out the garbage for them regularly ? without being asked; offering them drinks or food; requesting if there is anything they need in terms of shopping, mail, etc. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:48:15 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minhagim change over time Message-ID: Understanding how certain minhagim change over time: Imho this is a process which plays out historically without a clear algorithm. Only through the eyes of retrospection (e.g. the aruch hashulchan) is the result koshered (see hilchot aveilut as an example) Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:46:39 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:46:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience Message-ID: On belief based on personal experience: A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) Me-How do we take this into account in our emunah process? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 9 19:54:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:54:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Personal thoughts on Avodah Message-ID: * Ari Wasserman,Rabbi Moshe Hauer,Rabbi Moshe Mordechai Lowy,Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz,Reb Dovid Lichtenstein,Mr. Charlie Harary-1/2/21 - Show 304 - What halachically is a good (or bad) use of our time? Someone I know often says, "Time is our most precious and perishable asset." OTOH I'm not sure I can agree with Mick Jagger that, "Time is on my side, yes it is". You can listen here to the various presentations or you can send me $4.95 (plus shipping and handling) for Joel's magic elixir algorithm which will cure all your ills and give you the proper balance of learning, sleeping, relaxing, eating, etc. For an extra $1.05 you'll also get the proper breakdown of learning time by subject including Tehillim and gedolim bios! Seriously IMHO this our biggest avodah, figuring out how HKB"H wants us to spend our time, especially the marginal free minute. IMHO you need to think about this throughout life and to talk about it from time to time with others to ensure you take into account your blind spots (true of life in general). For me, having a working basic knowledge of behavioral economics, social science, quantum physics, scientific method, legal theory, etc. will improve one's talmud torah and avodat hashem. Just be sure you're not trying to see everything as a nail because you have a hammer! These are my thoughts on our avodah in dynamic time allocation today. What are yours? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ereich at zen.co.uk Thu Feb 11 02:37:15 2021 From: ereich at zen.co.uk (L Reich) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 10:37:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: <8dab4744-a501-4547-d3af-aad949ae4e5c@zen.co.uk> to Avodah forum: Can anyone reconcile the seeming halachic contradiction regarding figs, whether fresh or dry (the latter being known as /Grogrois/ in the Talmud. All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement of examination before consumption. Yet.... Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of /Grogrois/, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the cake? Furthermore in dealing with the hazard of /Gilui/ - liquids and soft foods left uncovered and possibly injected with snake venom - The Talmud Yurshalmi states that one may eat (soft) figs in the dark and not worry about venom. What about insects ? Elozor Reich -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 13:00:12 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:00:12 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? Message-ID: From https://www.kosher.com/lifestyle/this-year-purim-falls-on-friday-what-time-should-i-begin-my-purim-seuda-1436 [https://www.kosher.com/resized/open_graph/h/a/hamentashen_purim_concept_banner.jpg] This Year, Purim Falls on Friday. What Time Should I Begin My Purim Seuda? | Lifestyle | Kosher.com Written by Rabbis Eli Gersten, Yaakov Luban, and Moshe Zywica of the Orthodox Union . The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat.. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat ... www.kosher.com The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim is on erev Shabbat, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbat. The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may l?chat?chila postpone the seuda up until three hours before Shabbat. Bedieved (after the fact), if one is unable to begin the seuda until later, one must still eat the seuda up until Shabbat. If one is still in the middle of the Purim seuda at shkia (sunset), when Shabbat begins, one must cover the food, recite Kiddush, and then continue the meal. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if this were to happen, one would recite Retzei in bentching, but not al hanissim. One cannot recite both retzei and al hanissim, since this would be a contradiction. Since we are required to recite retzei, this indicates that it is Shabbat and Purim is over. Therefore, one can no longer recite al hanissim. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 11 06:16:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:16:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Special Seudah When Rosh Chodesh is on Shabbos Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This Shabbos will also be Rosh Chodesh. We will be eating three seudos in honor of Shabbos. Is there anything additional that should be served in honor of Rosh Chodesh? A. There are two versions of the Talmud. The Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) was redacted in the sixth century. The Talmud Yerushalmi was composed in an earlier period in Israel. The Tur (OC 419) quotes the Talmud Yerushalmi (Megilah 1:4) that when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, the Rosh Chodesh seuda is postponed until Sunday. (It is not feasible to eat the Rosh Chodesh meal on Shabbos since three meals already take place in honor of Shabbos.) It is apparent from the Yerushalmi that a seuda is required on Rosh Chodesh. In light of the above, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 419:2) is surprised that we do not observe this custom of eating a Rosh Chodesh seudah. He speculates that since this meal is not mentioned in the Talmud Bavli, it was assumed that the Bavli disagrees with the Yerushalmi. When there is a conflict between the Bavli and Yerushalmi, we follow the Bavli, and therefore the Rosh Chodesh seuda was not observed. The Aruch Hashulchan concludes that in deference to the Yerushalmi, an extra dish should be served at the meal on Rosh Chodesh. Similarly, when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, an extra dish should be added to the Shabbos meal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 11 15:38:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:38:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] belief based on personal experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210211233848.GA14859@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 03:46:39AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> On belief based on personal experience: I checked on TorahMusings, and RJR forgot to say there as well just who he is quoting, but someone wrote: >> A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and >> analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations >> similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space >> (ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they >> actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how >> many about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...) And RJR asked: > How do we take this into account in our emunah process? I think that's leaving the personal experience route, trying to use the idea of personal experience as a data point to build a philosophical argument. Kind of like the difference between the Kuzari cheileq 1's appeal to tradition, and "The Kuzari Principle" trying to make a philosophical argument out of the impossibility of forging this kind of tradition. The question is whether you want to philosophically get knowledge about the Borei, or you want to get to better know Him. The Rambam, because he believes that a personal relationship of that sort is impossible, focuses on theological knowledge about G-d. On the opposite extreme, R Nachman eschewed studying about G-d because all that intellectualizing gets in the way of knowng Him. The resolution I pursue in my own life assumes neither of these ends of the spectrum. Ever do something you know was the wrong choice? That's because there is a gap between what we think and what we feel. (R' Elya Lopian -- all of mussar is about moving something just an ammah. Moving an idea from the head to the heart.) It is therefore not necessarily true that a pursuit of philosophical knowledge about Hashem in all His Transcendence has to get in the way of finding a relationship with Him. This is a case where compartmentalization is a good thing. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 19:18:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 22:18:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Infestation in figs Message-ID: . R' Elozor Reich asked: > All halachic sources stress the severity of consuming insects > found in figs. Many recent works deal with exhausting requirement > of examination before consumption. > > Yet.... > > Yet we find many talmudical references to large pressed cakes of > Grogrois, which were sawn apart before consumption. Detailed > examination of such fig for insects is virtually impossible. Did > the consumers rely on the pressers to check each fig added to the > cake? My presumption is that the ancients knew what to look for, and so they had a simpler task of discerning a problematic fig from a problem-free fig. It is "exhausting" for us because we are less familiar with what we are doing, so we go to extremes to ensure that we've resolved all doubts. It is comparable to making matzah. Back in the day, they knew what they were doing, so they could make a loaf up to a tefach thick, and still be confident that it was chometz-free. They knew how to keep kneading the dough, so that even with the passage of hours, it would still not become chometz. They could even mix flour into a pot of boiling water, and it would cook so fast that it couldn't become chometz. But we have forgotten the details, and we're woefully out of practice. So most of us go crazy making the matza as thin as we can, and bake it as fast as we can. And just to be extra-sure, many go for the well-done matzos, disdaining the merely baked ones. So too with the figs, I suspect. If you know what you're doing, you can take a glance and know whether it has any bugs or not. But if you've lost the mimetics of how to do that, a surgical inspection is the only way to know for sure. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 18:38:50 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 21:38:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . No, I don't really doubt that Rosh Chodesh *does* have kedusha, if for no other reason than the Beis Din's announcement of "Medudash!" My actual question concerns how we express that kedusha, and in particular, how we talk about its kedusha in our tefilos. In the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh, the middle bracha - often nicknamed "Kedushas Hayom" - closes with the words, "Baruch Atah Hashem, mekadesh Yisrael v'Rashei Chadashim. - Blessed are You, Hashem, Who sanctifies Israel and New Moons." This conclusion certainly attests to the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh, but it seems strange to me that the body of the bracha doesn't. The main text of this bracha, beginning with the words "Rashei Chadashim l'amcha natata," says many nice things about Rosh Chodesh: It's a time for kapara, we would bring korbanos. We ask Hashem that we should be able to bring these korbanos again, and we ask Him for all sorts of brachos in this new month. And we finally state the basis for these requests: "For You chose your people Israel from all the nations, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Not a single word about the kedusha of the day (until after we cross over from the body of the bracha into the chasima). The root k-d-sh never even appears, except in the phrase "Beis Hamikdash". What's going on here? I clearly recall learning, once upon a time, halachos about the structure of a bracha, and how the conclusion should summarize the main point of what the bracha is about. But that doesn't happen here. The body of the bracha talks about the Newness of the new month, and the conclusion talks about its Holiness. When Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbos, this omission is even sharper: "You made your Holy Shabbos known to them, and You established the laws of Rosh Chodesh for them." Shabbos is explicitly holy, but Rosh Chodesh just has laws? For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant that I won't bother to list them. Amida and Musaf on the Shalosh Regalim have at least two mentions of the day's kedusha: The paragraph of "Vatiten Lanu" has the phrase "Yom Tov [Ploni] Mikra Kodesh", then just before the chasima we have the phrase "Moadei Kodshecha". On Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, "Mikra Kodesh" seems to be the only explicit reference, but that's still a lot more than Rosh Chodesh's zero. I readily concede that the kedusha of Rosh Chodesh is less than that of the other holidays, possibly even less than that of Chol Hamoed. And perhaps that's the message that Chazal were sending us when they formulated this bracha. Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Sun Feb 14 02:23:31 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:23:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 at 04:00, Akiva Miller wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on other > holidays. > Shabbos has four different versions, and the references are so abundant > that I won't bother to list them. On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it that are different. ADE From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 06:15:34 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 09:15:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? Message-ID: . I wrote: > For the sake of comparison, let's look at the middle bracha on > other holidays. Shabbos has four different versions, ... R' Allan Engel commented> > On the contrary, the middle beracha on Shabbos is exactly the > same on all four occasions. It's the piyyuitim that precede it > that are different. I am not familiar with this idea. Are you suggesting that these "piyutim" were inserted long after the Anshei Knesses Hagedola, similar to the pituyim that are reserved for Chazaras Hashatz on special occasions? Thet would be news to me, most especially in the case of Musaf, where mentioning the korbanos is mandated by halacha. Even if these paragraphs are recent additions, my point was that all four of them specifically mention the kedusha of Shabbos: Maariv: "Atah kidashta es yom hashevii", "V'kidashto mikol hazmanim" Shacharis and Musaf: "Am m'kadshei shevii", "uvashevii ratzisa bo v'kidashto" Mincha: "Yom menucha uk'dusha" Additional data point: My question isn't about the Amidah specifically, but about the structure of a Bracha Arucha in general. So I took a look at the last bracha after reading the haftara. On both Shabbos and Yom Tov, this bracha concludes with the same words as we say in Kiddush and in the middle bracha of the Amida, attesting to the Kedushas Hayom. But what of the body of the bracha? On Shabbos, we say "v'al yom haShabbos hazeh, shenasata lanu Hashem Elokeinu likdusha", so that matches up. But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 15 13:45:23 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:45:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim Message-ID: Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA OU's Guidelines for Purim The approaching Adar and Purim represent the sobering milestone of a year since the arrival of the pandemic on these shores. This year has brought devastating loss of life, immense financial struggle, and significant personal and social upheaval. At the same time, we are approaching a time of year that should be filled with simcha. How do we balance these emotions and experiences? See the attached guidelines, written in concert with our poskim and medical professionals. Read Here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 16 09:25:56 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:25:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] OU's Guidelines for Purim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210216172556.GA18273@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 04:45:23PM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Presented by Orthodox Union and RCA > OU's Guidelines for Purim See also the Agudah's guidelines https://agudah.org/purim-5781-a-time-for-mindfulness-and-care And the guidelines sent around Lakewood in the name of BMG's rashei yeshiva: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1948510 (which I think is the most conservative of those I've seen) Over in my backyard, R Ron Yitzchak Eisenman sent out guidelines for Ahavas Israel of Passaic, but since RRYE is a known columnist, I thought people might be curious what he told his shul. See below, although except for capitalizing what was originally in BOLD, formatting was removed. Tir'u baTov! -Micha --------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 12:06 PM Subject: Purim 5781 Purim 5781 """""""""" Under no circumstances may anyone ever enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose The New PIP """"""""""" You all remember PIP? Purim in Pashut. This year there is a new PIP. Purim in Pandemic. How do we celebrate the joyous day of Purim during the Pandemic? The answer is, of course, by adhering to the Covid guidelines strictly and uncompromisingly. I recall very well last Purim. No one was masking as back then; in fact, we were told not to mask. No one social distanced as we never heard of the term. Purim was celebrated together with close contact, sharing of food and drink, and unbeknownst to us at the time; we were also transmitting a deadly pathogen that would wreak havoc on the world, AND PARTICULARLY HARD HIT WERE ORTHODOX JEWS. This year Baruch Hashem, we know to be careful. THEREFORE, IN THE SPIRIT OF EVEN A SAFEK PIKUACH NEFESH (SLIGHT CHANCE OF A LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION), I PRESENT MY GUIDELINES FOR PURIM 5781. 1. Parshas Zachor -- As I have mentioned in the past, the Shul follows the Psak of the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim Kanievsky that women are NOT obligated to hear Parshas Zachor. 2. Therefore, please observe the socially distant setup of the women's section. Preferably, unless you are a regular Shul goer, better not to come. If you do go and see there are no seats, DO NOT enter the women's section. You are putting people in danger, and you are doing a "Mitzvah through an Aveira." 3. The above rule of not crowding the sections applies to the Men's section as well. 4. Under no circumstances may anyone enter the Shul at any time without a mask -- this is the rule every day -- and if you don't observe it, you are trespassing on Shul property, which is akin to stealing. This rule applies to Purim as well. 5. Please note masks must cover the mouth and nose PURIM Night """"""""""" 1. One may eat before hearing the Megillah 2. Therefore, women or men who will hear the Megillah later should eat after 6:18 PM on Thursday 3. If you cannot get out to hear the Megillah, and no one can come to you to read it. You may listen to a live Zoom broadcast of the Megillah and read along with the Baal Koreh in your printed Megillah. Purim Day """"""""" a. Mishloach Manos -- Minimal Mishloach Manos this year. You only need to give two food items to one person to fulfill the Mitzvah. b. When delivering the (hopefully one) Mishloach Manos, make sure to wear a mask c. It is highly recommended not to go driving around town delivering food. This can G-d forbid lead to a "super-spreader" infecting many people. d. Stay home in your family bubble. e. The Mitzvah this year is "less (contact) is more (health)!" f. Matanos L'Evyonim can be given to me either (cash or check) in Shul beginning today. g. If you want to drop off Matanos L'Evyonim at my home (that is allowed and recommended), please come masked h. I respectfully ask that no one feel they need to visit me and certainly do not feel the need to bring me Mishloach Manos. i. The Purim Seuda should consist of people only in your immediate bubble. j. Preferably it should take place in the morning as Shabbos is coming! k. Use the extra time to learn Torah, say Tehillim, and spend quality with your children or yourself. Wishing all a joyous Purim Ron Yitzchok Eisenman Rabbi, Congregation Ahavas Israel Passaic, NJ From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 16 09:58:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:58:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Learning for the sake of learning, just to occupy one's mind with the intricacies of the Torah, even if the practical application of the law is already known, is limited to men. A woman who learns Torah does not become greater in yiras Shamayim because of it. True, she may become very learned in Torah, but this is not the object of talmud Torah. A woman may become a great philosopher or scientist, but Torah is not philosophy or science. Torah is the way Hakadosh Baruch Hu communicates with us. Only because talmud Torah is a mitzvah, a positive commandment for man, can it be a means to connect to Hashem and thereby increase his yiras Shamayim. Because a woman has no specific mitzvah of talmud Torah, she cannot utilize it as a means to increase her many ways of connection to Hashem. If a man is a great talmud chacham, having learned the entire Talmud, and has not become a greater yerei Shamayim this learning has not achieved its purpose. If a woman were to learn and know Gemara just as well as a man, it still would not make her one iota better than she is. It would have no influence on her relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu. she'asani kirtzono - He has made me according to his will, means that a woman does not need talmud Torah to come close to Hakadosh Baruch Hu. A woman can even have prophecy-the closest possible relationship to Hakadosh Baruch Hu-without learning Torah. [Email #2. -micha] The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274-275. Women are also obligated to say Biros Ha Torah. While patur (exempt) from talmud Torah purely for the sake of learning, women are, nevertheless, obligated to learn the halachos of the mitzvos so they can properly fulfil them. With the exception of the few time-bound mitzvos, women have the same obligation as men to know and keep the vast majority of the mitzvos of the Torah. It is therefore incumbent upon women to learn the details of these mitzvos in order to observe them properly. How can women keep Shabbos or Yom Tov properly without knowing the applicable halachos? How can a woman conduct a business if she is not familiar with the dinim (laws) of ribbis (interest), ona'ah (misrepresentation or price fraud), or gezel (outright theft)? The difference is only in the goal of the learning. For a man, in addition to the need to know the practical halachos in order to apply them, it is also a mitzvah to occupy himself with talmud Torah as a form of avodas Hashem, serving Hashem. This is so even if there is no immediate need for this knowledge in practice, either because he already knows the dinim, or because his immediate circumstances do not require the application of what he is learning. However, for a woman, the purpose of the learning is to gain the knowledge in order to put it into practice. From zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com Tue Feb 16 11:16:54 2021 From: zalmanalpert770 at mail.gmail.com (Zalman Alpert) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Women and Torah Learning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Email #1. -micha] On Feb 16, 2021 12:58 PM, "Prof. L. Levine" wrote: > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, page 274 Have to admit this is strange but reflects a weird attitude towards females May I add that the views of R Schwab are not necessarily in line with Rav Breuer or Rav SR Hirsch or that they represent daas Torah just at this point a daas Yachid it warrants further investigation By the way Rav Schwab personally from the pulpit thanked and praised the late Isha gedolah Dr Gertrude Hirschler for her abridged trans of the Hirsch chumash That was not practical halacha but Torah lishma Torah hashkofa is complex and single modules or power points do not reflect the reality on the ground This is true as all rabbis are humans and MAY and do change positions,the Rav was a powerful Agudist until 1946 and then joined Mizrachi so I can guote what he said in 1938 and that would NOT reflect his position later Rabbi Schwab himself reversed himself in Tide several times ... [Email #2. -micha] > The following is from Rav Schwab on Chumash, pages 274 - 275. Besides hilchos Shabbos none of the halachoth mentioned was taught at the Breuer's girls high school,some time was spent on secondary subjects that could gave been used Rav Schwab was the Board of Ed dean of all KAJ schools I suspect hilchos Shabbes are taught in most Bath Jacobs in metro NY And in the KAJ school no text was used no kittzur not even Rabbi Posen's Amira leBays Yaakov which was designated as a supplementary text but not formally studied As the chazal say esmahmeha ? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 16 22:39:57 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 06:39:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts Message-ID: For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 04:13:42 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 07:13:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was learning this week. I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even today. Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? Akiva Miller (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra guessing. Happy Adar!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 18 05:04:17 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? Message-ID: There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different depending on where you live and the day of the year. For a detailed discussion of this issue see https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ YL Depression Angles ? The Seforim Blog Depression Angles By William Gewirtz. Introduction: Depression angles measure the level of darkness or illumination prior to sunrise and, in a parallel fashion, after sunset. seforimblog.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 11:53:41 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:53:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] When Does the Day Begin and End According to Halacha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218195341.GB18578@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 01:04:17PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > There is no simple answer to this question. The times could be different > depending on where you live and the day of the year. > > For a detailed discussion of this issue see > https://seforimblog.com/2021/02/depression-angles/ Only end. The day begins at sheqi'ah. 0 minutes after sunset equals the sun declining 0 degrees below the horizon. No difference in when the day starts between computing a fixed interval or degrees below horizon. In any case, computing tzeis isn't siginificantly more complex. It's as easy to compute sunset (0 deg below the horizon) and add 36 minutes as it is to compute when the sun is 7.12 deg below the horizon. See the page I wrote at http://aishdas.org/luach Or the widely used http://mysmanim.com Both use declination. But I like my formatting. One page per month in normal 7x4 or 7x5 calendar format. At the cost of not having every zeman published for every day, and having to split the difference between the zeman as it was two days before today and two day after. (I even threw in the Molad on days that have one. One known bug -- doesn't know which cities light 40 min before sheqi'ah.) Suggestions invited. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 18 14:36:19 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:36:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210218223619.GA9395@aishdas.org> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 07:13:42AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic... Shorashim, likely not. So I can't help you with cases like "techum". But it shouldn't take that much diqduq knowledge to recognize which way the word is conjugated, so, more hope for verbs. Then the easy things, like .... I say "like", but I only can think of this example: No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. A final alef "-a" for zakhar nouns ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. Eg: Malkah with a hei is Lh"Q for queen. Malka with an alef - Aramit for king. For that matter, once we get to rabbinic Hebrew, the shorashim they both got from before the split between the languages is compounded by Leshon Chazal's heavy borrowing of shorashim from Aramit. The question of which language a shoresh belongs to itself becomes blurry. More like asking "when did this enter Hebrew". Like "techum", which is used in Mishnayos, in Hebrew. So, it's a Hebrew word, but a later addition, borrowed from Aramaic. (Then there is always sefaria. When you search for the word, which books dominate the search results? If the answer is Targumim, the Talmuds, Zohar, etc... you know it's Aramaic. Of course, so much of gemara (TY & TB) is in Hebrew, finding a word in gemara alone wouldn't make the point.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF > The point of this post is to ask if there is a way that a > non-linguist might be able to determine whether a given word is Hebrew or > Aramaic. This question came to me from two different things that I was > learning this week. > > I have mentioned a few times recently that in my learning of Shnayim Mikra > v'Echad Targum, I've seen Onkelos translating a word into what I *thought* > was a Hebrew synonym, but is now clearly the Aramaic translation. A good > example is the word "techum", which we are familiar with from the phrase > "techum Shabbos". But as it turns out, "techum" appears nowhere in Tanach, > and it is how Onkelos consistently translates the word "gevul". I am led to > conclude that "techum" was not originally a Hebrew word at all, even if it > was absorbed into Mishnaic Hebrew and Rabbinic Hebrew. > > I found a similar word tonight, where Parshas Terumas teaches us about the > loops which were at the edges of the Mishkan's curtains. The Torah uses the > word "lulaot" for these loops in Shemos 26:10 (and many other pesukim), > which Onkelos translates as "anuvin". It is obvious to me that this is a > form of the word "anivah", which is familiar to me from Hilchos Shabbos: A > "kesher" (knot) is more problematic than a mere "anivah" (bow or loop). > [See, for example, Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata 15:53.] I was unable to find > this meaning of ayin-nun-beis in Tanach, and now I suspect that it is > actually an Aramaic loanword like techum. > > On a related note, the Gemara Megilla teaches that a Megillas Esther must > be written without translations: One's megilla will be pasul if it has any > Aramaic words that are supposed to be written in Hebrew, or if it has any > Hebrew words that are supposed to be Aramaic. Of course, the megilla has > many many Hebrew words in it, and if the sofer would translate any of them, > the result would be a pasul megilla. But, asks the Gemara Megilla 9a, what > Aramaic is there that one might wrongly translate into Hebrew? Rav Pappa > cites the word "pisgam" in Esther 1:20; if the sofer would substitute > "davar", then the megilla would be pasul. But Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak > claims to have found a different Aramaic word in the Megilla: That same > pasuk (1:20) has the word "yakar". (Indeed, I have noticed many times, that > Onkelos translates "kavod" as "yakar".) Incidentally, "yakar" appears in > about 9 other places in Megillas Esther also. > > My problem is this: How can Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak think that yakar is > Aramaic? It doesn't appear in the Chumash, but it does appear in a few > places in Tanach, such as Tehillim 49:13 and 49:21. My guess is that > whereas "techum" is an Aramaic word that was adopted by Hebrew in the days > of the Amoraim, "yakar" was already adopted into Hebrew during the Neviim, > and that for purposes of writing a Megilla, it still counts as Aramaic even > today. > > Is it possible that some Aramaic words were adopted into Hebrew even > earlier? Might they even appear in the Chumash? How might we recognize them? > > Akiva Miller > > (As long as we're talking about foreign words showing up in our texts, > here's an interesting trivia question: There is a Latin word in the siddur. > I've seen it in nusach Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Edot Hamizrach siddurim. It's > not in the daily tefilos, though, just one particular holiday paragraph. > Anyone who wants to know which word and which tefila - or if you want > another clue - write me offlist, and we'll keep the rest of the chevra > guessing. Happy Adar!) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You cannot propel yourself forward http://www.aishdas.org/asp by patting yourself on the back. Author: Widen Your Tent -Anonymous - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 02:36:31 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 05:36:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > No suffix for zakhar and a final h "-ah" for neqeiva in Hebrew. > A final alef "-a" for zakhar nound ans "-isa" for neqieva in Aramaic. When I was in yeshiva, I had a friend who had more than a few seforim published with Hebrew fonts, but not Hebrew language. I ended up developing a set of rules by which I could determine a book's language at just a glance: Lots of words ending with Heh - Hebrew Lots of words ending with Aleph - Aramaic Lots of words starting with Aleph - Arabic Lots of words with aleph or ayin or double-yud in the middle - Yiddish I had a rule for Ladino too, but I've forgotten it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 19 06:26:43 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:26:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi (Megillas Esther 9:16-17) explains that the Purim story took place because Haman maligned the Jews, saying that they engage in personal feuds and do not get along with one another. This is alluded to in the verse ?yeshno am echad mefuzar umeforad bein ha?amim?, there is one nation which is dispersed and scattered among the nations, i.e., lacking unity. To demonstrate the falsehood of this libelous charge, Mordechai and Esther instituted that Mishloach Manos should be given to one?s friends and acquaintances, to foster camaraderie and good will among the Jews. This demonstrates that we do not engage in personal feuds; on the contrary, we engage in acts of friendship, by gifting our food to others. Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving one?s acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Feb 19 11:33:39 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 14:33:39 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> A. This is the subject of a well-known dispute. Manos Halevi... >> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Although most people are not poor >> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, Chazal >> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). I am not understanding the ThD's explanation. After all, there is already a mitzvah in that niche. So: 1- On the first layer of the explanation, why then enact both mishloach manos and matanos le'evyonim? And 2- If we give MM to the wealthy so as not to embarass the poor, why not JUST mishloach manos, rather than matanos le'evyonim embarassing them? :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From zev at sero.name Sat Feb 20 19:08:07 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 22:08:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] What is the reason for the mitzvah of giving Mishloach Manos on Purim? In-Reply-To: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> References: <20210219193339.GA7712@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <0568e6c2-010b-31a1-fd3b-7e820b8d7560@sero.name> On 19/2/21 2:33 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 02:26:43PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: >> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >>> Terumas HaDeshen (1:111), however, explains that the purpose of giving >>> one's acquaintances Mishloach Manos is to ensure that poor people enjoy >>> a festive and lavish Seudas Purim. Ad kan Terumas Hadeshen. The rest is the Chasam Sofer's suggestion, or rather the OU writer's understanding of the same, which I believe to be flawed. First of all, though, the Terumas Hadeshen does not mention "poor people". He says the purpose of mishloach manos is so that everyone will have enough food for the seudah, and therefore it must consist of food. Money or clothing will not do, since one can't serve those at the seudah, whereas matanos la'evyonim can be food *or* money, or anything else that helps. It should be readily understood that a person need not be poor in order to find himself not quite up to making as big a seudah as he would like. It may be that he is neither rich nor poor, he's keeping up with his bills, but he can't afford to make the kind of purim seuda he would like to make, and a care package would be welcome. It may also be that someone has plenty of money but for some reason he didn't buy enough when he went shopping, or he just isn't that good a cook, and would appreciate an outside contribution to the meal. >>> Although most people are not poor >>> and therefore do not need food given to them for their Seudah, This part is not in the ThD or the ChS, and is the OU writer's own interjection. >>> Chazal >>> instituted that Misloach Manos be given to wealthy people as well, >>> so as not to embarrass the poor (Teshuvos Chasam Sofer OC 196). This is the ChS, except that he doesn't say "wealthy", he says one who has plenty of food. It could even be a poor person who happens to be well provided for the purim seudah, even if he'll be eating the leftovers all week. Technically, according to the ThD's explanation of the reason for the mitzvah there's no reason to send to this person -- one could send him matanos la'evyonim, but not mishloach manos! -- , but nevertheless the ChS suggests that Chazal said to send him anyway so as not to embarrass those who are not so well supplied. The ChS's point, however, is not to whom one should send, but whether the recipient can decline, and if he does whether the giver is yotzei. So he says that according to the ThD's explanation it's obvious that if the person actually could use the extra food then his mechilah is of no effect; lepo'el his seudah is now short of what it could be, so the purpose of the mitzvah was not fulfilled. But he says even one who is well supplied should not decline, so as not to embarrass those who don't decline. I think this answers both of your questions. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 03:47:20 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 06:47:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur Message-ID: In the "credit where credit is due" department, this post results from an article in the recent issue (Dec 2020) of The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. It contains an article titled "The Halachos of Davening at Home" by "Rabbi Avraham Yeshaya Cohen, Translated by Rabbi Nosson Kaiser". On page 74-75, he writes: >>> It is forbidden for a tzibbur to recite ha'aderes v'ha'emunah except on Yom Kippur, but an individual may say it anytime. [Mishnah Berurah 565:12. Nusach Sefarad says it every Shabbos and Yom Tov during pesukei d'zimra. Perhaps that is considered an individual's tefillah, as there is no requirement for a tzibbur at that point. In fact, Siddur Tezelosa D'avraham p. 159 writes that it should be said quietly, and the chazzan should not end it aloud. See also Aruch Hashulchan 281:4 and Sheivet Levi 10:86.] Mishnah Berurah 565:12 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur, though an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. [Pri Megadim in Eishel Avraham] The Dirshu Mishneh Berurah 565:16 gives some arguments (pro and con) about saying it in Pesukei D'Zimra, and also raises the issue of singing it during Hakafos on Simchas Torah. Magen Avraham 565:5 says: >>> Don't say Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah with a tzibur except on Yom Kippur. (R"m Mahari"l) Pri Megadim 565:5 says: >>> See the Magen Avraham about b'tzibbur, but an individual can say Ha'aderes all year. See Darchei Moshe. Darchei Moshe 565:4 says: >>> The Mahari'v wrote that the tefillah Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah can be said by an individual any day of the year, but a tzibbur is forbidden to say it except on Yom Kippur. My question about all this does not concern the exceptions that are made for Pesukei D'Zimra or for Simchas Torah. Rather, I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. Are there any other examples of this? Can anyone explain why it would be wrong for a tzibur to choose to say it on a day other than Yom Kippur? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 20:33:22 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 23:33:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? Message-ID: . Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" (beis-vav-tzadi). "Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in Divrei Hayamim. I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all of these as coming from Aramaic: techum (Onkelos' translation of gevul in Bereshis 10:19 and Devarim 27:17) butz (Onkelos' translation of shesh in Bereshis 41:42 and Shemos 28:39) yakar (Onkelos' translation of kavod in Shemos 28:2 and Devarim 5:21) siruv (Onkelos' translation of ma'en in Shemos 7:27 and Bamidbar 20:21) On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. One more note: This dictionary is available on line, as a searchable and downloadable pdf file, at https://archive.org/stream/AComprehensiveEtymologicalDictionaryOfTheHebrewLanguageErnestKlein1987OCR but its copyright is murky to me. There's an "Info" button near the top right of that page, and if you click it and the "More information" button afterwards, it claims that the dictionary is in the public domain. But page 2 of the dictionary itself says "Copyright 1987 by ...", so I don't know which claim is more correct. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Feb 21 07:37:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 10:37:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210221153722.GA10838@aishdas.org> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 11:33:22PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > On the other hand, consider the word "oni" (ayin-nun-yud), often translated > as "affliction", such as in Shemos 3:7, 3:17. Onkelos translates this as > "shibud" (shin-ayin-beis-vav-daled), so I imagined it to be an Aramaic form > of ayin-beis-daled. But if I am reading it correctly, Klein says that it is > indeed Hebrew, of the "shaph'el" form, which I never heard of before, but I > suppose it was vernacular to Onkelos' audience. I was under the impression that shif'il is an Aramaic binyan that is borrowed by Hebrew. So, it is used for Hebrew shorashim, but the resulting word is only Hebrew after influence from Aramaic. But AFAIK, shif'il and the passive shuf'al (meshubadim hayinu leFar'oh) don't appear in Tanakh. So, one could accurately says shi'bud is Hebrew, but Rabbinic Hebrew has Aramaic influences... So, the answer isn't all that black-and-white. Why not re-ask on our sister list mesorah at aishdas.org ? It's full of people interested in nusach, as well as getting leining and tefillah "just right". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Sun Feb 21 10:19:26 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:19:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/2/21 11:33 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Yesterday, I found yet another word in Onkelos that I thought was > Hebrew: The fabric "shesh" (shin-shin) appears in Bereshis 41:42 and > many times in Shemos from Terumah to the end. I checked five of them, > and Onkelos translates it consistently as "bootz" > (beis-vav-tzadi).?"Bootz" seems to be another case of an Aramaic word > (as attested by Onkelos) which got adopted by Hebrew long after Chumash > days: It appears once in Yechezkel, twice in Esther, and 5 times in > Divrei Hayamim. Note that in Esther 1:6, in the same pasuk where "bootz" is used to mean what the Chumash calls "shesh", "shesh" is used to mean "shayish", marble. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From simon.montagu at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 00:36:11 2021 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 10:36:11 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Is it Hebrew or is it Aramaic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 5:27 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > I'm not going to bother reporting on additional findings. The main reason > I'm posting today is to inform interested parties about "A Comprehensive > Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English" by > Ernest Klein, published by Carta. It's available from Amazon, and I've seen > it in a few seforim stores too. I was impressed to find that he lists all > of these as coming from Aramaic: > Klein's dictionary is also available on Sefaria with a search interface: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Klein_Dictionary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 06:32:07 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:32:07 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Please see my question at the end. Q. I ordered a food package on Amazon two days before Purim with guaranteed delivery to my friend on Purim day. Do I fulfill the mitzvah of Mishloach Manos with such an arrangement? A. This is a matter of dispute among the poskim. Some hold that by doing so he does fulfill his obligation of Mishloach Manos (Be?er Heitev to OC 695:7, citing Yad Aharon; Da?as Torah in the name of Mahari Assad, and Rav Elyashiv, cited in Yevakshu Mipihu, Purim 1:31). However Aruch HaShulchan (695:17) held that one does not fulfill Mishloach Manos with this arrangement. The Ben Ish Chai (Teshuvos Torah Lishmah 188) explains the reasoning behind this dispute as follows: In the previous Halacha Yomis we learned that there is a dispute as to why Mishloach Manos are given. Is it to engender good will and camaraderie between people (Manos Halevi), or is it to ensure that poor people have sufficient food for their Purim Seudah (Terumas HaDeshen)? If Mishloach Manos are to foster good will ? one must send the food on Purim itself because sending the food is part of the mitzvah. Those who hold that one is yotzei, take the position that the purpose of Mishloach Manos is for the recipient to have sufficient food for the seudah. Hence, as long as the food is received on Purim ? even if it was sent prior to Purim ? the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah. _____________________________________________________________ According to the opinion that "the sender has fulfilled his obligation of Mishloach Manos, as the recipient will now have sufficient food for his seudah" is the purpose of sending Mishaloach Manos, then it seems to me that sending candy and cake does not fulfill the mitzvah. While some kids may make feel that candy and cakes are fine for a meal, most adults do not, and hence it seems to me that one who sends candy and sweets does not fulfill his/her obligation to send Mishaloach Manos. For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 12:57:32 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 15:57:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 02:32:07PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > For the past few years have been giving a package with salad and > croutons. This certainly can be a part of a "real" Seudah. The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! One can argue from the Rambam's Hikkhos Tzedaqah that the same applies to michloach manos, and it's better to give smaller m"m to more people. Or maybe not. The question of how to safely do mishloach manos this year is a touchy one, and depends on local conditions. I heard one LOR recommend giving just one person whom you've already had similar contact with, and save all the great "themed shalachmanos" ideas for next year. Last year, the week before Pesach was a vary sad one in our community. (I still cry when I think of R Matis Blum's [Torah Loda'as] mother, someone who fed me many a Shabbos Qiddush snack when I was a boy, who was still sitting shiv'ah for R Matis when she started shiv'ah for her husband.) But last Purim, we weren't aware of the notion of a "superspreader event". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone http://www.aishdas.org/asp or something in your life actually attracts more Author: Widen Your Tent of the things that you appreciate and value into - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF your life. - Christiane Northrup, M.D. From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Feb 22 12:08:10 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:08:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Message-ID: The following is from the Sefer The Vilna Gaon on Megillas Esther by Rabbi Asher Baruch Wegbreit. This Sefer contains many interesting insights into the Megillah. Pasuk !:4 says "when he showed the riches of his glorious kingdom, and the splendor of his excellent majesty, many days, one hundred and eighty days." Question: Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? Answer: The answer lies in understanding the real purpose of the feast. Vashti's grandfather Nevuchadnezzar had hidden 1,080 treasure houses near the Euphrates River, but Hashem revealed them to Koresh, the king who preceded Achashverosh, because Hashem had designated Koresh to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. Achashverosh inherited these treasures from him. Achashverosh decided to display his vast wealth to the officers and noblemen of all the provinces of his empire in order to awe them into submission and thereby solidify his kingship, and he used the feast as a context for the presentation. The feast was thus a pretense to allow what would have otherwise been ostentatious display of his wealth. The pasuk describes this in passive form "in his showing of his treasures," to hint that this display, which was actually the purpose of the feast, was conducted in a casual manner, as if it were merely a secondary goal. Achashverosh showcased his 1,080 treasure houses at a rate of six per day- as alluded to in the six words in the pasuk describing his wealth and power ("riches," glorious," "kingdom," "honor," "sp1endorous, " and "greatness")-on each of the 180 days of the feast (180 x 6 = 1,080). At the feast, Achashverosh also donned the Kohen Gadol's garments, to convey his personal greatness and royal dominion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Mon Feb 22 14:55:41 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:55:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:57 PM 2/22/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say >I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is >likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave >one maneh! So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. I think not! The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different brochos, even if combined. YL From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 20:37:09 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 23:37:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the > AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag. > > Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your > practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for > one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons > into the salad, and I only gave one maneh! Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is considered as two??" He makes no mention of the size of these pieces; if I give a nice-size portion of meat, and then a second portion just like it, it doesn't count, because it needs to be TWO TYPES of food. The AhS quotes the Rambam as writing, "two portions of meat, or two types of food, or two types of tavshil." [Note the change in language: Rambam used the word "manos" for the meat, but "minim" for food and tavshil.] AhS concludes that "His writing 'two types' forces you to say that when he wrote 'two portions of meat' he meant 'of two types'. Or. maybe it was a printer's error and it should have said 'two types of meat' just like 'two types of food'." In your scenario, where I gave someone a bowl of salad, and a second bowl of croutons, this is surely two separate foods, and I am yotzay. If the recipient chooses to mix them together, that is his doing, but I'm already yotzay. An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, *different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 23 05:48:26 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 08:48:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon In-Reply-To: References: <20210222205732.GA2099@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22e901d709ea$91763780$b462a680$@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:37:09PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very > clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food." > Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But > two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is > considered as two??" ... In se'if 13 he says "uba'inan shetei manos... veyotz'in be'echad". Which being darshened from the word "rei'eka" would seem to mean 1 person (getting the 2 manos) except he doesn't get to the number And se'if 15 talks about the size of a maneh, "ke'ein chatikhah hara'ui lehiskhabeid". All that aside, yes, the AhS comes down on one side. In this case, he is defending common practice against the SA se'if 4. For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying otherwise. Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:56pm -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made > a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh. No, I am saying it could well be that that's the halakhah, so CYLOR. What you consider obvious doesn't seem so when you look at the sources. > I think not! > The salad and croutons are 2 different things. They have two different > brochos, even if combined. According to the SA, the halakhah speaks of two servings. The fundamental halakhah doesn't care about "two berakhos", and according to the SA, not even whether it's two kinds of food. Giving two hamburgers may not be our minhag, but it is clear that both the SA and the Rama would say you are yotzei. (OC 695:4) The Arukh haShulchan (se'if 15) talks about the manos being generous, so you can't be yotzei giving just two kezeisim. So yes, if you give a hamburger and a bun, you could very well not be yotzei. That's exactly the logic. You say "I think not!" but why not? Do you have a maqor? That's why I would get an expert opinion before doing the same. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 22 14:49:44 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:49:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210222224944.GB2099@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:15:34AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the > haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh > Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha > to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is > sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm > putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day. The last phrase of any berakhah (that isn't just a one sentence "Barukh") is supposed to be me'ein hachasimah. But it can drift all over the place in between. Any berakhah that covers multiple topics has to be a berakhah arukhah -- barukh at beginning and last sentence; or semuchah lechaverta and thus the first barukh can be omitted. (The AhS invokes this idea to explain the structure of Birkhas haZon (the first berakhah of bentchen). The middle berakhah on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or Rosh Chodesh is apparently a berakhah arukhah hasemukhah lechaverta. Therefore, it is allowed to have multiple topics, never mind insisting it closely match the chasimah. As long as the close is me'ein hachasimah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Mon Feb 22 09:01:51 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 17:01:51 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 22, 2021 01:19:26 pm Message-ID: <16140349120.7Aaf7F4e.96628@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > ... I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has > free rein, but the tzibur is restricted. Usually it is the other > way around. There are many tefilos which may be said *only* > b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances. For example, > some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only > by the chazan. Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on > only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime. > > Are there any other examples of this? > There are plenty of examples of prayers that may be recited by individuals, and that may not be recited by the tzibbur. For example, suppose you have asked Sarah Pippik to marry you, and she has nodded her head and said she'll get back to you on that. Unquestionably, until you hear back from her with her answer, you are going to be inserting a private prayer three times a weekday into the benediction of Shomea` Tefillah, that she say yes to your proposal. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Xonen Hadda`ath, if you think that not marrying you indicates a failure of intelligence on her part. Or maybe you will put your prayer into Rofeh Xoley `Amo Yisrael, if you are marrying Rn. Pippik because you need a kidney transplant, and she has the same blood type as you. The point is that individuals are allowed to utter certain kinds of prayers, that the tzibbur is not allowed to say. Now, there are special laws about rain, such that, if an entire community needs rain, a tzibbur is allowed to ask for it. But that is only because our Sages have enacted laws permitting it. Otherwise it would be forbidden. Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah. Or if the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition of the `Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, unless a good strong rain would sweep the frogs back into the river where they came from. It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed to make. Unrelated to the above, in your earlier post, you mispronounced "seiruv". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Feb 23 05:20:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:20:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? A. The Meiri (Sefer Magen Avos 23) writes that Taanis Esther is different than other communal fast days. Other communal fast days commemorate events of tragedy, while Taanis Esther is a day of celebration, for on that day, the Jews of old fasted before going to war (Mishna Berura 686:2), merited to have Hashem listen to their plea and overcame their enemies. This contrast is reflected in the following halacha: The Gemara (Megila 5a) states that when the 9th day of Av falls on Shabbos, the fast of Tisha B?av is delayed until Sunday. We do not observe the fast before Shabbos because one should postpone, rather than advance, the commemoration of tragedy. In contrast, when the 13th day of Adar falls on Shabbos, Taanis Esther is observed on the previous Thursday. We may advance the fast since it commemorates a joyous event. By the same token, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l (Halichos Shlomo, Purim 18:6) contrasts Taanis Esther with other fast days with respect to bathing and cutting hair. Although bathing is technically permitted on all fast days except Tisha B?av (Shulchan Oruch 550:1), and hair cutting is acceptable on Tzom Gedalia and Asara B?teves, some are stringent and do not bathe and take haircuts on communal fast days, in keeping with the sad character of the day . This is not the case with Taanis Esther, where everyone agrees that bathing and haircuts are permissible. Rav Zilberstein, shlita (Chashukei Chemed Megila 16b) writes that one may even listen to music. However, Rav Elyashiv, zt?l is quoted in the sefer Ashrei HaIsh (Vol. 3:41:20) as saying that it is inappropriate to listen to music. Taanis Esther is also a day of forgiveness, and music will detract from the solemnity of the day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 23 22:25:48 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 06:25:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices Message-ID: Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim. My question, almost partially addressed in the article, is assuming such a waiver is effective, is it what HKB"H wants of us? Such a waiver certainly would help the children avoid difficult issues, not just event related such as weddings, but every day issues as well. Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the waiver sending the right message? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 24 07:13:33 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:13:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 24 05:31:46 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:31:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. This year Purim will be on Friday. What time should one begin their Purim seuda? A. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch OC 695:2) writes that when Purim falls on erev Shabbos, it is preferable to begin the Purim seuda in the morning (before midday) so as not to detract from the honor of Shabbos. (If one eats the Purim seuda later in the day, there will minimal appetite for the Shabbos meal.) The Mishnah Berurah (695:10) cites the Yad Efrayim who writes that if this will be difficult, one may lechatchila postpone the seuda up until three hours before sunset. (These three hours refer to sho?os zemanios, which means the length of each hour is proportionate to the length of the day. As an example, three hours of sho?os zemanios before sunset on Purim this year in New York City will be approximately 3:00PM.) Bedieved, if unable to begin the seuda before the three-hour period, one must start the seuda before sunset, which is when Shabbos begins. However, during this three-hour time frame, only a minimal meal should be eaten (a little more than a kibaiya of challah and a small amount of meat and wine) so that one will have an appetite to eat the Friday night seuda. (See Rema 529:1 and Aruch Hashulchan 249:7) If one did not complete the Purim seuda before shkia (sunset), which is when Shabbos begins, the challah must be covered and Kiddush is recited, and then the meal continues. Hamotzi is not recited on the challah since one is in the middle of the meal (OC 271:4 and MB 18). If one drank wine during the first part of the meal, Borei Pri Hagefen is omitted during kiddush (ibid). After the seuda, one davens Kabbalas Shabbos and Maariv. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if the meal continues after sunset, Retzei is recited in Birchas Hamozon, but Al Hanissim is omitted. (One cannot recite both Retzei and Al Hanissim, as this would be contradictory. Since we recite Retzei, this indicates that Shabbos has begun, and Purim has concluded.) YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Feb 24 10:00:02 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:00:02 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered via Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D.BD.20687.45496306@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 12:18 PM 2/24/2021, avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org wrote: >An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the >salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single >food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second, >*different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to >be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT >have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two >types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]] The salad that we buy which is sold by someone in Lakewood and is made by Postiv, has the croutons in a separate plastic bag, and hence the salad and the croutons are not mixed tether, but are separate. This to me qualifies as two different foods.. >One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR! I do not agree with this. The Jewish Press used to write, "Consult your local COMPETENT Orthodox rabbi." I always took this to mean that not every O rabbi is competent to answer all questions, and I do firmly believe that this is the case. For example, I have in the past had conversations with O rabbis about kashrus, and it quickly became clear that they only had "global" knowledge about hashgachos, but no detailed knowledge. A question like "Whose meat is used in such and such a product?" was met with silence. Again, not every O rabbi has the knowledge to answer all questions. How could any one man know all the nuances of the technological world we live in? Instead of CYLOR, you should write CYLCOR. YL From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 24 15:11:29 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 18:11:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Waiving mourning practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210224231129.GG18755@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 06:25:48AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning > parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim... If the reason for aveilus running more than sheloshim is kibud (or yir'as) av va'eim rather than aveilus itself, granting them this ability would be very logical. Like doing anything else for one's parent; if they don't want it done, there is no chiyuv to do it. (For yir'ah too -- you can get reshus from a parent to sit in their seat.) To answer your question > Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they > choose but from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand > in for HKBH's happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the > waiver sending the right message? It depends why the parents gave them reshus. No? It could be the parent is doing the child a favor. It could be the parent believes they are better served without it. And I could picture very different answers to your questions in those two scenarios. A mother might have waved aveilus because family is important to her, and she wants her children to be able to go to the cousin's wedding that is coming up. It may be greater kibud eim to obey her accomodating going to her niece's wedding. Alternatively, mom might know her child really want to get to their friend's upcoming wedding, and doesn't want you making major sacrifices. If indeed months 2-12 are all about kibud or eimah, and the request is for the parents' sake, the greater kibud av va'eim would be not practicing aveilus. Or maybe, just going to the one wedding. Okay, we need a scenario where the motive is continuous. (The only thing that came to mind is pretty depressing: Dad got his act together, but always regretted the years he was an abusive parent. He would prefer the kapparah of a short aveilus more than a full year of the son being pushed to think about their troubled relationship.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:55:59 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:55:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Birchat Haorchim Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich asked: > Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many > ashkenazim did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon > (assumedly relying on the harachaman to do the job) and only > recently was it added back into the standard text of birchonim? The simple answer is: Minhagim change. That's their nature. One could just as well ask why almost none of the siddurim I've seen use the halacha's text for Haneros Halalu. (It's in O"C 676. Pick your favorite rishon or acharon, and compare what they write to what you say. Cheat sheet available at https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n251.shtml#19) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 08:31:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:31:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Are you or someone you know not going to shul this Purim? (Again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note that you can pause the reading or rewind one minute. Instructions are given at the beginning of the recording. [https://groups.io/img/digest_ico_01.png] Attachments: [X] IMG-20210224-WA0008.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:41:02 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:41:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] HILCHOS PESACH FOR THE PURIM SEUDAH Message-ID: >From today's Hakel Bulletin The Rema (in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 695:2) writes that the Seudas Purim, the festive Purim meal, should commence with Divrei Torah. The Mishna Berurah (in Orach Chayim 429, seif katan 2) rules that one must begin learning about Pesach on Purim--which is exactly 30 days before Pesach. Accordingly, putting the Rema and Mishna Berurah together, it is therefore a custom to commence the Purim Seudah with a Halacha about Pesach. In this way, one also connects the Geulah of Purim to the Geulah of Pesach (see Ta?anis 29A, which states that the reason we should increase our simcha to such a great extent in Adar is because it is the commencement of both the miracles of Purim and Pesach). We provide two Halachos for you to begin: 1. The Rema (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 429:1) begins Hilchos Pesach by writing that it is our Minhag to give wheat to the poor in order to help them celebrate Pesach. The Mishna Berurah (seif katan 3) notes that this Minhag dates back to the time of Chazal. 2. Rabbi Shimon Eider, Z?tl, in the Halachos of Pesach writes that in lieu of wheat, some have the custom to distribute flour or other food supplies. In our time, most communities distribute money for the poor, in order for them to purchase their needs. The leaders of our community do not tax or otherwise assess their constituents, but instead everyone is expected to give to the best of his ability. Hakhel Note: As we connect Matanos L?Evyonim to Ma?os Chitim--let us remember the Pasuk (Yeshaya 1:27): ?Tzion B?Mishpat Tipadeh V?Shaveha B?Tzedaka?--speedily and in our day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:31:53 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:31:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say Message-ID: . R' Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter wrote: > ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the > tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a > prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the 'Amidah. Or if > the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs, > the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition > of the 'Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, ... > It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed > to make. Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a prohibition. To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? In any case, my original question (in the thread "Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah on days other than Yom Kippur") was not about impromptu prayers for special events. It was about established prayers that we can find in the siddur, machzor, or elsewhere. There are many that may be said only with a minyan, and I'm wondering if there are any (beside Ha'aderes V'ha'emunah) that may be said only with*out* a minyan. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Feb 25 06:14:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:14:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? A. The Megillah relates that the Jews fought their enemies on the 13th day of Adar. They rested and celebrated on the following day, the 14th of Adar, and that is the day that Purim is generally observed. In the capital city of Shushan there were more enemies of the Jews. The battle lasted two days and they celebrated on the 15th of Adar. Shushan was a walled city and the Rabbis instituted that Shushan and other walled cities such as Yerushalayim would celebrate Purim on the 15th. This is known as Shushan Purim. (See Aruch Hashulchan 668:2-4) The Jewish calendar is set in a manner that the 14th of Adar will never fall on Shabbos, while the 15th of Adar occasionally falls on Shabbos. Some of the mitzvos of Purim cannot be fulfilled on Shabbos, and they are observed instead on Friday and Sunday. In such instances, Purim in Yerushalayim spans three days, and that is why it is called Purim Meshulash (the three day Purim). Here is the breakdown of mitzvos for each day of Purim Meshulash: Friday: Chazal did not want the Megilah to be read on Shabbos out of concern that one might forget it is Shabbos and carry the Megillah in an area where there is no eiruv. Rather, they instituted that the Jews of Yerushalayim read the Megillh on Friday, in conformity with everyone else around the world. Chazal associated the mitzvah of Matanos L?evyonim (giving gifts to the poor) with the reading of the Megillah, so even in Yerushalayim, matanos l?evyonim is given on Friday, even though it is not yet Purim. Rav Ovadya Yosef zt?l (Yechave Daas 1:90) points out that if one has a minhag not to do melacha on Purim (and treat it like Chol Ham?oed), melacha may be performed on Friday (in Yerushalayim), since it is not actually Purim. Shabbos: The Kerias HaTorah of Purim is read on Shabbos, as well as a special Haftorah for Purim. Al Hanissim is inserted in davening and bentching. It is proper to add a special dish to the Shabbos meal in honor of Purim. Since Megillah is not read on Shabbos, it is proper to discuss the halachos of Purim to remind oneself that it is Purim day (Mishnah Berurah 688:16). Sunday: The Purim seuda takes place on Sunday and Mishloach Manos are distributed then as well. We follow the poskim who rule that Al Hanissim is not said in davening or bentching. However, since there is a minority opinion that it should be said, Rav Ovadya Yosef recommends that it be added at the end of bentching in the section of Harachaman. (Harachaman yaaseh imanu nisim v?niflaos k?mo she?asa la?avoseinu ba?yamim ha?heim ba?zman ha?zeh. Bi?yemei Mordechai?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:35:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/2/21 10:31 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, similar > to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh Yeshiva, or a > chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The community arranges a big > event, to encourage great throngs to come and pray for the leader's > health. There are many tehillim recited, many speeches given, and many > tears shed. Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When > the shliax tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the > leader's health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? The obvious analogy is to those countries that need rain when it is not needed in Bavel, and therefore Tal Umatar is not said. The halacha is that each individual in those countries should add "Vesein Tal Umatar Livracha" in Shomea` Tefillah. However the shliach tzibur does not do so, even though each individual he is representing needs rain and did pray for it in his private tefillah. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 13:43:52 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:43:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Purim Meshulash is celebrated this year in Yerushalayim. What is Purim Meshulash? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23baca0a-f837-9cb5-c594-5a5aea4b649a@sero.name> On 25/2/21 9:14 am, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Sunday: The Purim /seuda/ takes place on Sunday and /Mishloach Manos/ > are distributed then as well. This is the opinion of the Mechaber, who is nowadays considered the "Mara De'asra" of the whole Eretz Yisrael. But in his day he was not so considered. Yerushalayim had its own rav, the Ralbach, who holds differently; he holds that Seudas Purim and Mishloach Manos should be performed on Shabbos, and thus there is only a 2-day Purim, not 3 days. I assume that in his day the Sefardi community of Yerushalayim followed his psak and not that of the Mechaber in Tzefas. I wonder at what point the community practice changed to that of the Mechaber, and whether this was influenced by the arrival of new immigrants who challenged the existing minhag based on what is written in the Shulchan Aruch. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Thu Feb 25 14:08:50 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:08:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Why did Achashverosh's feast last so long? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60ec2494-9da8-8764-525b-2d8fda20d3f3@sero.name> See Malbim, who sees the whole story as a political struggle between Achashverosh and the political establishment. Bavel had been a constitutional monarchy, its kinds bound by the law, and remained so after the Persian kings conquered it. But Achashverosh, having usurped the throne, was not content with this and wanted to change it to an absolute monarchy, where the law is subject to the king, and all the country's wealth is his to spend as he pleases. So he unilaterally moved the capital to Shushan, which had never been an important city before, and then started spending untold fortunes on an endless party, at which his own appointees, servants, and armies were honored ahead of the statesmen and ministers who had been there before him. He was rubbing their faces in the new reality. Then, once he felt that point had been made, he punctuated it by throwing a party for all the commoners whose only yichus was that they happened to live in his new capital city, and at the peak of this party he summoned Vashti, the princess of the ancien regime, to humiliate her and show that she is subject to his whims, because his authority does not derive from her but from his own might. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 07:51:08 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:51:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger wrote: > For all the AhS's saying the Rambam must have originally been > "minim" across the board rather than "manos", the Mechaber > pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah from the Rama saying > otherwise. > Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory. I'd like to suggest, aliba d'RMB, how this development (from "two manos" to "two minim") might have occurred. (If he wrote this in his posts, then apologize for not seeing it.) But - today being National V'nahapoch Hu Day - I'll begin at the end of the story. There is a well-known practice nowadays (I will not call it a minhag, and AFAIK not a single posek anywhere requires it) that one's basic "two manos" should be of food that have different brachos. The reason for this (in my eyes, quite obviously) is because of what counts as two "minim". Is a chicken wing and a leg two minim or that same min? What of a cookie and a donut? White wine and red? Two different white wines? Choosing foods of different bracha removes the confusion. Similarly, I can very easily imagine confusion over how large a "maneh" must be. Imagine one piece of roast, and another piece of roast. That could be two portions for an ani, or a half-portion for a teenager. So it evolved into "two minim", which simplified things greatly. Just a guess, of course. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 08:24:12 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:24:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Message-ID: . [[[ I received this a few minutes ago, in an email from a friend. I cannot verify whether it is actually from the RCBC or not, but I'd like to think it is. Just to remind everyone, I am proud to have been originally a resident of Bergen County, whose rabbis almost a year ago had the courage to shut down all the shuls even before the government required them to do so. - Akiva ]]] Rabbinical Council of Bergen County Purim Guidelines Thursday, February 25, 2021 Dear Friends, In response to our recent letter about Purim and Pesach during the pandemic, many of you have asked for more detailed guidelines about how to safely fulfill the various mitzvos of Purim this year. Please see below for additional parameters, and please direct any questions to your local Orthodox rabbi in a masked, socially distanced fashion. We empathize with the general feelings of ?Covid-19 fatigue.? However, we have been informed that a new, more virulent *Galitzianer strain* has been spreading in our community. As such, this is not the time to let our guard down. *Kriyas Hamegillah* Every Jew is obligated to hear the megillah twice on Purim, but safety concerns must take precedence. We recommend that all megillah readings be done in less than 15 minutes, to stay below the CDC time frame for Covid-19 exposure. As breathing is dangerous for everyone, instead of just reading the ten sons of Haman in one breath, the baal korei should attempt to read the entire megillah in one breath. If he must take a breath during the reading, a plastic supermarket bag should be placed over his head. Care should be taken to use one of the thick kosher supermarket bags, not those thin ones from CVS. In addition, while normally a ?hei degusha? is aspirated in words like ?lah? and ?bah,? aspirating is considered a sakanas nefashos and therefore should be avoided, as bedieved the reading is kosher without such aspirated letters. Similarly, the letter ?pei? should be replaced with the softer ?fei? if the meaning of the word is not changed. Perhaps this is why Hashem in His infinite wisdom named the holiday Furim instead of Purim (see Esther 9:26). Finally, we are all familiar with the minhag to read pesukim relating to a threat of death for the Jewish people in Eicha trop. This year many more pesukim refer to deadly threats, such as ?leich kenos es kol hayehudim? (Esther 4:16) and ?vayikahalu hayehudim? (Esther 9:15). To ensure that people do not follow these examples and gather in groups, these pesukim should also be read in Eicha trop. If it does not impede one?s ability to finish reading in less than 15 minutes, one may choose to read the entire megillah in Eicha trop, so as to diminish any feelings of mirth that may lead to a momentary lapse in Covid-19 precautions, chas v?shalom *Matanos L?Evyonim* While giving money to the poor is an important part of the holiday, extreme care must be taken to not infect those who we are trying to help. While paper money is normally handed to the poor on Purim, this will necessitate the giver coming too close to the receiver, thus putting him or her in grave danger. It is also difficult to properly sanitize paper bills with Purell. Therefore, it is recommended to pre-sanitize coins and then throw them at the poor from a distance of at least six feet. *Mishloach Manos* Our usual practice of bringing food to others? homes should be avoided this year, as standing outside someone?s door may inadvertently lead to entering their house. Many of you have asked whether one who pays taxes which are then used to provide free boxes of food to the members of our community can consider this their mishloach manos. Since the distribution of these food boxes is done in a contactless manner, this is an ideal way to fulfill the mitzvah. Those who have not reported sufficient income to require paying taxes should give some money to a wealthier neighbor and thus be considered a meshutaf (partner) in his tax payments. *Seuda* The Purim seuda is usually a festive gathering and is thus the most challenging mitzvah to fulfill this year. In addition, while drinking alcohol is always discouraged, especially on Purim, it is even more inadvisable this year as it would require removing one?s mask. There is a common misconception that the mitzvah of simcha on Purim requires one to be happy the entire day. However, according to most rishonim, the shiur of simcha only requires being happy for a toch kedei dibur - about 3.4 seconds, or 4.2 seconds according to the Chazon Ish. While it is so hard for us to find any joy these days, one can read a posuk of the Torah for a few seconds (quietly, alone, and masked) and thus fulfill the mitzvah of simcha as required on Purim. Please make sure to finish being happy by chatzos so as to have time to prepare for another lonely shabbos. *Lifnim Mishuras Hadin* While none of these restrictions are necessary based on CDC or state guidelines, it is critical that we continue to signal to the world how much more virtuous we are than our ?frummer? brothers and sisters in Passaic, Lakewood, and the Five Towns. We therefore urge everyone to get at least three shots of the vaccine, stay at least eight feet apart, and wear at least two masks (unless that becomes commonplace, in which case we should wear a minimum of three masks). Wishing everyone a safe, meaningful, and safe Purim. The Rabbinical Council of Bergen County -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Feb 28 14:29:21 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 22:29:21 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 25, 2021 12:00:04 pm Message-ID: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> ... Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried people, and the >> tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not insert a >> prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah.... >> > > Perhaps such a halacha exists, but I have not heard of it. Do you > have a source? I wonder what the reason would be for such a > prohibition. > > To keep the conversation going, I'll suggest another scenario, > similar to those you've mentioned. Suppose a great leader (a Rosh > Yeshiva, or a chassidic Rebbe, for example) is very ill. The > community arranges a big event, to encourage great throngs to come > and pray for the leader's health. There are many tehillim recited, > many speeches given, and many tears shed. Then the entire crowd > unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax tzibbur recites > Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's health, either > in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? > This is not going to be a satisfactory answer, but one reason for thinking that it cannot be done, is that it is not done. The scenario that you described above happens frequently: the community arranges a big event, many Psalms are recited, many speeches are given, there is communal prayer -- and the shliax tzibbur adds nothing to the repetition of the `Amida. I have seen it happen, you have seen it happen. This is not an entirely satisfactory answer, because there are plenty of explicitly permitted practices, that are not practiced. Thus, that something is not done, does not necessarily imply that it cannot be done. For example, there is an undisputed halakha of "pores mappah umqaddesh", which would have been the ideal way to fulfil the mitzva of s`udath Purim last week, but I have never seen it done, or ever heard of it done, outside of Jerusalem, which is allowed to have her own customs. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim without wine, early in the day, is not the ideal way of fulfilling the mitzva. The other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise it is theft, and it is a serious sin. The alternative of having a s`udath Purim after working hours is not permitted on a Friday, even if you live in the Diego Ramirez Islands where sunset is late, unless you are pores mappah umqaddesh, because otherwise you are having your s`udath Purim too close to your s`udath Shabbath. And yet, I have never heard of anyone doing it, outside of Jerusalem. So, the fact that something is never done -- even when you think that it would and should be done, if it were permissible -- does not necessary mean that it is not permissible. So, let us look for an answer in the Shulxan `Arukh. Orax Xayyim 119:1 is the first place where it explicitly says that an individual (even when not offering a tefillath n'dava, vide infra) is allowed to insert personal requests in the silent `Amida, although there are earlier allusions to this halakha in 90:15 and 101:4. The halakha makes a point of mentioning, incidentally, that you must phrase your request in the singular, because it is a personal request. Now, let us assume, arguendo, that the shliax tzibbur is permitted to insert communal requests, in the repetition of the `Amida. One would think, that just as there is a halakha in 119:1 explicitly permitting an individual to do such a thing, there would be a parallel halakha a few simanim later, permitting the shliax tzibbur to do such a thing, but there is no such a halakha. Now, of course, the absence of a halakha permitting something does not, in general, mean that it is forbidden; but the author of the Shulxan `Arukh did think, for some reason, that there was a need, in this case, for a halakha permitting it to an individual; I would expect, therefore, that for the same reason -- whatever that reason might be -- there would be a need for a parallel halakha permitting it to the shliax tzibbur, if it were permitted. Moreover, the halakha in 107:2 is that an individual who offers an entirely voluntary prayer, which we call a tefillath n'dava, is obliged to add a personal request in his or her `Amida; and I assume that this is the reason why you are not allowed to offer a tefillath n'dava on Shabbath or Yom Tov, because you are not allowed to add personal requests to the `Amida on Shabbath or Yom Tov. 107:3 states that the tzibbur is not allowed -- is never allowed -- to offer a tefillath n'dava, and I assume that it is for the same reason, that the tzibbur is not allowed to add additional requests to the `Amida. A more thorough answer would discuss other sources -- or at least the Beyth Yosef, since I am making inferences from what is not mentioned in the Shulxan `Arukh -- but I presently lack the time (and perhaps the skill, although that may just be my saintly modesty speaking), to put any more time into a more thorough and better-researched answer. Hopefully, someone who has time to research this question more properly will find it interesting -- because I think it is -- and continue the conversation. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 1 05:25:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:25:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When one recites Hamotzi on a loaf of bread, is there a specific part that one should eat first? A. The answer to this question emerges from an unusual story in the Gemarah. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 102b) relates that Rav Ashi referred to the evil King Menashe in a dishonorable way. That night, King Menashe appeared to Rav Ashi in a dream and quizzed him about which part of the bread must one eat first. Rav Ashi did not know the answer and King Menashe taught him that we must begin eating from the area that was baked first. Rav Ashi accepted this ruling and taught this halacha the next morning ?in the name of our teacher, King Menashe?. The Mishnah Berurah (167:1) explains that we honor the beracha by taking the first bite from the part of the bread that was most baked. This halacha is codified in Shulchan Aruch (OC 167:1). The Rema writes that since it is not clear which part of our bread bakes first, we should cut a piece from the crusty end of the loaf that contains both the top and the bottom and this piece should be eaten first. Many Kabalistic explanations are given as to the significance of this halacha, and why it was specifically taught by King Menashe. The Ben Ish Chai (Parshas Emor 1:1) writes that this is an absolute obligation. Only if one is elderly and unable to chew the crust may he begin eating the soft center. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 06:29:38 2021 From: allan.engel at gmail.com (allan.engel at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 14:29:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say -- Sources In-Reply-To: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <16145729620.bf5AE2FE.72518@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: The concept of employed people taking days off work for holidays does exist. On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 at 14:07, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: The > other alternative of having a s`udath Purim with wine, either before > or during working hours, is allowed only if you are unemployed, or > self-employed, or if Purim does not fall on a working day; otherwise > it is theft, and it is a serious sin. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 2 22:39:50 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 06:39:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kupat tzedaka Message-ID: I am learning the AH"S hilchot tzedaka and am struck by the poverty in the communities he relates to. This reminded me of imi morati ZL""HH relating her father's description of the grinding poverty in the shtetl. (lots of sociological history in halacha). Of particular interest was his description of how the universal practice of a single communal kupat tzedaka came to an end. Sometimes reality trumps "halacha" and maybe the mimetic tradition fails to restart in cases it should. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 05:24:19 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:24:19 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll. Is it preferable for me to recite Hamotzi right away, to minimize the hefsek (delay) between washing and Hamotzi, or should I wait until I return to my table so I can recite Hamotzi on a whole loaf of bread? A. First, let's review the general halochos of hefsek between netilas yadayim and Hamotzi. Shulchan Aruch (OC 166:1) quotes a dispute whether one is required to recite Hamotzi immediately after washing netilas yadayim, or is it not necessary. Because of the uncertainty, the Shulchan Aruch concludes that it is best not to delay. The Rema adds that if one waited between drying their hands and reciting Hamotzi longer than the time it takes to walk 22 amos (approximately 10 seconds), it is considered a hefsek. Nonetheless, the Mishnah Berurah (ibid s?k 6) writes that although it is preferable to make Hamotzi immediately after netilas yadayim, if a significant break did occur, it is not necessary to wash again. However, Igeros Moshe (OC 2:48) notes that speaking between washing and Hamotzi is a more significant hefsek and would necessitate netilas yadayim and a new bracha (unless what was spoken related to the meal). Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 3 13:35:15 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 21:35:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE Message-ID: The following is from the article The Legacy of RSRH, ZT"L that appears in the Sefer Selected Writings by Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L. Rav Hirsch is usually accepted as the exponent of the Torah im Derech Eretz philosophy. This principle is explained by his grandson, Dr. Isaac Breuer, as follows: "He was strictly opposed to compromise or reconciliation, or even a synthesis: he demanded full and uncompromising rulership of the Torah. The Torah cannot endure co-rulership, far less tolerate it. As a true revolutionary he seized the liberalistic individual, the liberalistic, humanitarian ideal, liberalistic capitalism, and the human intellect, celebrating orgies in the liberalistic science, and dragged them as "circumstances", in the narrowest sense of the word, to the flaming fire of the Torah to be purified or, if need be, to be consumed. As a true revolutionary he solved the unbearable tension between the Torah and the new era which had dawned over the Jews of Western Europe. He invaded the new era with the weapons of the Torah, analyzed and dissected it down to its last ingredients, and then shaped and reformed it until it could be placed at the feet of the Torah, as new nourishment for the Divine fire. The proclamation of the rulership of the Torah over the new era was the historic achievement of Hirsch's life for his own contemporaries." -- ("Hirsch as a Guide to Jewish History'' in Fundamentals of Judaism, published by Feldheim, 1949.) Unfortunately, the principle of Torah im Derech Eretz is grossly misunderstood by our contemporary Jewish orthodoxy. It does not mean that one who is a full-fledged citizen of hedonistic America and at the same time keeps the laws of the Torah, is a follower of Torah im Derech Eretz. Not to violate the laws of the Torah certainly deserves praise and recognition but it is not an embodiment of the Hirschian philosophy. Likewise, an academy dedicated to the study of science and philosophy, not in order to serve the understanding of Torah or to further the aims of the Torah but as the independent search by the human intellect to understand and control the world around -- even when added to a department of profound and very scholarly Torah studies -this is not an outgrowth of the Torah im Derech Eretz Weltanschauung of Samson Raphael Hirsch. Also, a secular university in Israel, albeit under skullcap auspices, complete with Judaic studies, is extremely remote from a Torah im Derech Eretz school even if it has established a "Samson Raphael Hirsch chair" as part of its academic set-up, something which almost borders on blasphemy. The Orthodox professional who is not regularly "koveah ittim batorah", or otherwise lacks in the performance of mitzvohs, or who is immodest in dress or behavior, is not a follower of Samson Raphael Hirsch. From all of Hirsch's prolific writings, it becomes evident that his main concern was to establish the majesty of the Divine Word and the role of the Divine Will as revealed in the Torah, to dominate all the highways and by-ways of mundane life. Those who abuse Torah im Derech Eretz as a "hetter" to lead a life of easygoing and lenient "Yiddishkeit" or those who consider the Hirschian idea as a compromise between the right and the left in Jewish thinking have distorted the meaning of the principle as laid down in the Mishne, Avos, Perek 2, 2: "Beautiful is the study of Torah combined with Derech Eretz for the effort to attain both makes one forget to commit sins". The Torah is not a mere branch of human knowledge, one discipline amongst many others, but rather must the Torah dominate all secular knowledge and all worldly activities. Equally so, the community of Israel, Klal Yisroel, as well as all Kd1il!os and organized communities, be they local or international -- which are all segments of Klal Yisroel -- are not supposed to be mere branches of a neutral Israel but are to be totally independent. The Torah community is not beholden to any non-Torah community and it. does not even recognize its authenticity. This is the essence of the Hirschian Austritt (separation) ideology. The so ailed "Austritt" is the militant vigilance of the conscientious Jew defending the Torah community against all encroachments from the non-Torah powers that be. The "AustrittL" and Torah im Derech Eretz go hand in hand, they form "one package", so to speak, and both these aspects of Hirschian thought have one aim: the total domination of Torah over all thinking and actions of individual and national life. He who separates the rule of the Torah over all facets of the communal life of Kial Yisroel from the rule of the Torah over all human knowledge, in short, he who separates the "Austritt" from Torah im Derech Eretz, renders a disservice to both. Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. It. is none of these. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 3 15:32:08 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:32:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210303233207.GF29384@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 03, 2021 at 01:24:19PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life isn't about finding yourself http://www.aishdas.org/asp Life is about creating yourself. Author: Widen Your Tent - Bernard Shaw - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 4 05:52:13 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:52:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What Is and What Is Not TIDE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Furthermore, the leit-motif is neither Torah and Derech Eretz nor Torah U'Madoh -- the two are not equal partners nor must it be twisted around into Derech Eretz plus Torah. It is neither a synthesis of Torah with assimilation nor a bloodless orthopraxy blended with earthbound Americanism. ---------------------------------- Interesting - You had me till here -I read through the whole piece carefully and it's pretty much what I heard from my rebbeim (and some secular studies teachers)at MTA - not always carried out but certainly the aspiration (and what I've tried to live up to) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Mar 4 04:28:35 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 07:28:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha References: Message-ID: At 06:32 PM 3/3/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > >> Q. Next to the washing station at a simcha hall there are cut up > >> pieces of pita. At my table there is a whole roll.... > > >> A. ... Regarding our original question, although in normal > >> circumstances, it is preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, > >> nonetheless, the importance of reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which > >> adds honor to the bracha) is an overriding consideration and takes > >> precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and 27). > >Being a balebus, the balebatishe answer seems more obvious to me: Go to >the table you are seated at, take a roll with you to the washing station, >wash and make hamotzi on a whole roll. > >That said, I have noticed many kosher caterers use mini rolls at the >washing station. I had assumed, to avoid this question. Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 4 15:21:58 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 18:21:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 04, 2021 at 07:28:35AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > Isn't it preferable to eat while sitting? It certainly used to be. and, if > this is so, then isn't preferable to make Hamotzi while sitting? If so, > then it would be preferable to wash and then go back to one's table and make > Hamotzi, even if one does make the bracha on a whole roll. How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that bite? Tir'u baTov! -Micha From akivagmiller at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 10:40:19 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 13:40:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . Regarding the seudos of Shabbos Erev Pesach - I remember many conversations in years past about making rolls from matza meal to use for these seudos, and we discussed various recipes and what bracha would be said, and whether or not they are allowed on Erev Pesach. Have we ever discussed making a matza meal (or matza farfel) *kugel*? It occurred to me that this would be a very simple solution (for those who eat gebroks, obviously), at least for an early afternoon Seudah Shlishis. A similar idea would be if a cholent could have enough matza in it that its bracha is mezonos. I could raise various issues and questions, but I think the best first step is to ask whether we've already covered this. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry62341 at optonline.net Fri Mar 5 07:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 10:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:21 PM 3/4/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >How is taking a bite from a whole roll more problematic than eating a >precut peice left by the washing station of the same size as that >bite? You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, no matter what you make it on. YL From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 5 13:35:55 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > no matter what you make it on. And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From larry62341 at optonline.net Sat Mar 6 16:46:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 19:46:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:35 PM 3/5/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >On Fri, Mar 05, 2021 at 10:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: > > You missed my point. When you go back to your table, you sit down and make > > the bracha, and I think that this is the appropriate way to make HaMotzi, > > no matter what you make it on. > >And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > >The whole reason why the caterer put cubes of bread at the washing station >to begin with. Just with a nod to the preference to use a whole loaf. > >Truth is, I didn't understand the original article's problem. When you >are washing, there is no whole loaf there. I'm not sure the preference >for whole goes as for as even when they aren't at hand. >>Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their >>dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and >>then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. >>According to you it would be preferable to have lechem Mishneh >>next to the sink in the kitchen and make Hamotzi there, since this >>would avoid " an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the >>bread." Yet no one I know makes Hamotzi at the sink in the >>kitchen. Everyone who does not have a sink in their dining room, >>wahses in the kitchen and then walks into the dining room, sits >>down, and then makes Hamotzit. This is clearly the preferable way >>to do things. YL From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 7 08:15:03 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 11:15:03 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 07:46:47PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: >> And that means an unnecessary pause between washing and eating the bread. >> As well as puzzled people upset you didn't answer their greating. > Question for you. Most people do not have a wash sink in their > dining room. They wash for Hamotzi on Shabbos in the kitchen and > then they walk to the dining room, sit down, and make Hamotzi. You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi on a shaleim at the washing station. This situation differs from what I wrote in two ways: 1- First, you set up a situation where the pause is far less avoidable. Not the "unnecessary" pause of returning to your table from the washing station when the caterer put bread cubes there to make HaMotzi on which you choose not to use in order to make the berakhah on a shaleim. Besides, sometimes, people can't even know which seat they want until more people entered, they don't want a long line at the washing station and want to wash before the crowd, so they are hunting for a spot after HaMotzi. 2- When you wash for HaMotzi on Shabbos, everyone is up to the same part of the meal. People know that others are between washing and HaMotzi. People at a simchah have a wide variety of start times. The odds that you are greeted and might reply, or they might not understand why you aren't replying, are significant. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of http://www.aishdas.org/asp heights as long as he works his wings. Author: Widen Your Tent But if he relaxes them for but one minute, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF he plummets downward. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 08:32:58 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 11:32:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >You went from having someone choose a delay over making HaMotzi over a >piece rather than a whole bread to asking why people accept any delay >at all. My point was that it isn't an either or -- you can have HaMotzi >on a shaleim at the washing station. Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should preferably be made sitting not standing. At the washing station you are standing, At your table you are presumably sitting. This is an important difference. Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 7 10:16:54 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 13:16:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Sitting for Hamotzi Message-ID: <3D.0D.01388.9E815406@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/85596/need-to-sit-for-hamotzi Is there an obligation or a custom to sit down while saying hamotzi? What about for the other before blessings (borei minei mezonot, borei pri adamah, borei pri ha'etz, and shehakol nihiye bidvaro)? 1 Answer The Pri Megadim (opening to Brachos, 18) specifically states that there is no obligation to sit down for the Birchos HaNehenin (including the Hamotzi) However, Chazal (Gitin p. 70) and so in the Rambam (Deios chapter 4 Halacha 3) state that for good health and Derech Eretz one should eat while sitting. And since bread is being eaten while seated, as stated in the Mor Vektzia (mark 8) that "all things that are being done standing, the blessing should also be done standing. But things done while sitting, it is not proper to bless while standing, as in Birchas Hanehenin, but Bediavad Yatza" YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 8 00:54:46 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 08:54:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha Message-ID: I can not now locate the most recent thread about the Meshech Chochma's shita on kedusha, can't get the archive search to work, but IIRC R'MB said the MC holds consistently that kedusha is never inherent to an object, it is an outcome of Jewish input. It always requires human involvement. So when my pre-hesder son came home from a few days sampling the avira ruchani at Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavneh brandishing a source sheet from a shuir on cheit ha'egel, I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way. If we mess up our attitude to the place or object in question, the kedusha is removed. Seems clear from his language that he's saying the kedusha does not originate in our actions. It always originates with Hashem for the benefit of our relationship with him, and lasts only as long as that is maintained and as long as it serves that purpose. So WRT to the first luchos - 'Ein bahem kedusha mi'tzad atzmam. Rak bishvilchem she'atem shomrim osam'. If we damage the relationship mi'meila no more kedusha, We can't create kedusha except so far as the Torah specifies, ie still originating in Hashem's tzivui, but we can destroy it. This, I think, is a far less radical take on kedusha and answers my questions as to how the MC's model of kedusha applies to kohanim and to time. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:15:24 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:15:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Reciting Hamotzi at a Simcha In-Reply-To: <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20210304232158.GA28493@aishdas.org> <6C.F8.15634.57F42406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210305213555.GA29248@aishdas.org> <29.34.26755.DB224406@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20210307161503.GA1253@aishdas.org> <44.20.20125.D8005406@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20210308181520.GA21061@aishdas.org> On Sun, Mar 07, 2021 at 11:32:58AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote: > At 11:15 AM 3/7/2021, Micha Berger wrote: > Again, you have missed my main point, which is that Hamotzi should > preferably be made sitting not standing... This was the main point of the OU Halakhah Yomis you started the conversation with: > Regarding our original question, although in normal circumstances, it is > preferable not to delay reciting Hamotzi, nonetheless, the importance of > reciting Hamotzi on a whole loaf (which adds honor to the bracha) is an > overriding consideration and takes precedence. (See Mishnah Berurah 167:4 and > 27). The author, you will note, didn't think that standing vs. sitting was an issue. Just time delay vs having a shaleim. I replied that given those two choices, you could take a roll off the table you're seated at with you to the washing stationg. (In terms of this din, it can equally be a roll from another table. But I would think it's wrong to risk that the table you take from doesn't have enough for the people seated there.) If you want to discuss standing, that's an interesting question. Why didn't the author of the OU page not consider making HaMotzi while sitting a factor to weigh? > Indeed, Ashkenazim in general make kiddush sitting and Havdalah sitting > which is in accordance with a Tosafos in Brachos, I believe. Sitting > denotes a "permanence". Standing is not the preferable way to eat. Actually, sitting for Havdalah is a Gra (Maaseh Rav) / Brisk style innovation. Minhag Ashkenaz was to stand (Rama OC 296:6). The reason why this was a much more common minhag than standing for Qiddush is because the meal is eaten sitting. But otherwise, the Kol Bo (41) said we would stand for both, as a show of kavod for the Shabbos Malka. Just as he has us stand for Havdalah. But back to the question of sitting... I don't think the need for qevi'us is invoked for the berakhah itself, but for being yotzei another. (E.g. Tosafos Berakhos 34a, "ho'il". In contrast, the SA OC 167:13 says you can be yotzei others even if everyone is standing). See AhS OC 296:17. He quotes the aforementioned Tosafos saying that since people prepare themselves for Havdalah, there is qevi'us even when standing. And one should stand as the king (King?, or or Who is the Shabbos Malka?) departs. (Except, he notes, according to the Gra.) So, if everyone is making their own HaMotzi at the wedding, sitting vs standing is a non-issue. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You are not a human being in search http://www.aishdas.org/asp of a spiritual experience. You are a Author: Widen Your Tent spiritual being immersed in a human - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 8 10:32:15 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 13:32:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 8 07:24:20 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:24:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] hashgacha pratis Message-ID: <150501d7142f$1caeb8b0$560c2a10$@touchlogic.com> The question (machlokes) if a person's free will allows them to act independently/against Hashems HP has been discussed here many times. I found the following post to be a very insightful and practical nafaka mina between those opinions http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2021/03/rape-does-g-d-want-someone-to-be-raped.html#disqus_thread A young lady once came to me for a theological consultation. This poised cheerful woman told me that when she was 10 she had been raped by two young yeshiva students at a religious summer camp. As a result of this incident she went into severe depression, became suicidal, and was finally placed in a mental hospital for an extended time. She said that baruch hashem, she had recovered and was no longer depressed or obsessed with revenge. Her visit was precipitated by having just seen her assailants walking down the street in Geula in Jerusalem with their wives and children -- as if they had never done anything evil. She said there was only one issue left from her experience which she couldn't come to grips with -- Why did G-d want her to be raped?" All the rabbis she had consulted with told her that it was G-d's will and that while they couldn't explain it that it must have been good and necessary. She just had to accept it as G-d's will. Her problem was that she couldn't accept that she worshipped a G-d that wanted this horrible thing to happen. I answered her that she was being told the dominant Chassidic/kabbalistic view. However I told her that [other] the Rishonim had a different view, i.e., that it is possible for a man to choose to hurt another -- even though G-d doesn't want it to happen. That she will be compensated in the Next World for her suffering but that G-d didn't cause it to happen. She was able to accept that view. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 9 10:22:59 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 13:22:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 9 03:20:10 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:20:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> References: , <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Can't see your take on this in his words. He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Further on in the words I quoted in the last email, the word 'bishvilchem' is vital. It's for 'for you', that's quite different to being 'from you' , ie me'itchem or some similar term. And he uses the term bishvilchem twice twice in that passage. A bit further again: 'ki ein shum kedusha v'inyan eloki klal biladei metzius haBoreh yisbarach shemo'. No reference to our role in maintaining kedusha there. And more broadly, his whole thesis revolves around the misunderstanding that kedusha can be a feature of something in the world independent of ratzon Hashem. So Moshe smashed the luchos to show the people how 'they hadn't achieved the goal of emuna in Hashem and his Torah hatehora'. That is, they had to realise that even the luchos were only kadosh because HKBH willed it. I'm part paraphrasing that section of course but,I think, accurately. It's true, he does also make clear that kedusha is depedant on us. But that's because without us it's meaningless, not because it originates with is. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 08 March 2021 06:32 To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Cc: Ben Bradley Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19 > He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly > inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha > is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from > with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we > relate to it the correct way... I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently. You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah haKohein writes further down, ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Between stimulus & response, there is a space. http://www.aishdas.org/asp In that space is our power to choose our Author: Widen Your Tent response. In our response lies our growth - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 9 08:54:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:54:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? Message-ID: From https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/ [https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/%22https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/907310658.webp?mw=500&mh=282%22] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? ? Shulchanaruchharav.com Is one required to stand when making Kiddush? Night Kiddush: [1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush. However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit. [ From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas ... shulchanaruchharav.com Night Kiddush:[1] It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush.[2] However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit.[3] [>From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.[4]] Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to sit even while reciting Parshas Vayechulu, although they slightly lift their bodies when saying the first words of Yom Hashishi Vayechulu Hashamayim.[5] [The above is all in accordance to Halacha, however, according to Kaballah, Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position.[6] Practically, the Chabad custom is to stand for the night Kiddush by all times, whether on Shabbos or Yom Tov.[7] So is also the Sefaradi custom, to stand for the night Kiddush[8] and so is the custom of some Gedolei Ashkenaz.[9] Other Gedolei Yisrael of Ashkenaz, however, retain the custom to sit while saying Kiddush.[10]] Day Kiddush: Whether one should stand or sit for the day Kiddush follows the same laws as the night Kiddush, of which we ruled that from the letter of the law one may choose to sit or stand, although it is better to sit and that so is the custom.[11] However, according to the ruling of Kabala, it is debated if the day Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position just as the night Kiddush, or if it is to be recited sitting.[12] Practically, many of those who are accustomed to stand for the night Kiddush are accustomed to sit for the day Kiddush.[13] Regarding the Chabad custom for the day Kiddush, there is no clear Chabad custom in this matter [as brought below] and whatever one chooses to do by the day Kiddush he has upon what to rely. Drinking the wine:[14] Even those who are accustomed to reciting Kiddush standing, are to drink the wine after Kiddush only after they sit.[15] [Nonetheless, some are lenient to drink the wine even while standing.[16]] Summary: >From the letter of the law, Kiddush can be said in either a sitting or standing position, and each one contains advantages over the other. Practically, different customs exist regarding if Kiddush is to be said sitting or standing, and each community is to follow their custom. Sefaradim stand for the night Kiddush but sit for the day Kiddush. Amongst Ashkenazim, some sit and others stand for both the night and day Kiddush. The Chabad custom is to recite the night Kiddush standing, although regarding the day Kiddush there is no clear custom. See the above URL for more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 10 02:10:39 2021 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:10:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> , <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: I'm stymied at this point by not being able to find the original posts we're referring to. But you state 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over' I think the temporary kedusha of Har Sinai is at least as consistent with the first approach as the second. Har Sinai had kedusha due to its role Hashem giving the Torah. Ma'amad finishes, kedusha ceases. At least as much emphasis on giver as receiver. I still think Shabbos is the proof. It's kadosh because Hashem wills it, period. Its kedusha is for us, to be sure, but our failure to keep it doesn't impact its kedusha. It remains kadosh regardless of our chillul. When it comes to kedusha of places and things, our reponse affects it because it's in our physical domain. Time is not in our domain, we live in it not vice versa, so we can't affect its kedusha. But there's only one overarching model of kedusha, and the principle gorem is Hashem, not us. Ben ________________________________ From: Micha Berger Sent: 09 March 2021 06:22 To: Ben Bradley Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote: > He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim > are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the > root is Hashem's Torah not our actions. Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui and to Torah. And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since they aren't about our point of contention. But: Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those mitzvos? If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that association the qedushah is gone. And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object. ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Thu Mar 11 04:55:54 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 07:55:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah Message-ID: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> See https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/pesach/app/371/a-guide-to- erev-shabbos-that-occurs-on-pesach/ He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah 'Because the bracha on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use rolls for lechem mishneh' What dispute is he referring to? If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. Mordechai cohen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 11 13:17:41 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 16:17:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah In-Reply-To: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> References: <005901d71675$dfcf2bc0$9f6d8340$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: <617710ea-0a5a-86a1-c525-a2d8519c63e8@sero.name> On 11/3/21 7:55 am, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah ?Because > the /bracha/?on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use > rolls for /lechem mishneh/? > > What dispute is he referring to? > > If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee. > Only if you eat a shiur, which according to some opinions is 4 eggs if you are satisfied from the meal (which I assume you would be). Still, that's not an impossibly huge amount; why not just tell people that they have to eat that much egg matzah? (If you're not satisfied from the meal then the opinions range from 6 eggs to half an issaron, which is 21.6 eggs. Though presumably you'll be satisfied long before then. But in that case the eitza is simply to eat another potato!) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 12 09:19:39 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:19:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] THE HESEIBA VIDEO! Message-ID: HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, explains that Heseiba is not intended to be an act of contortion, but a comfortable way to eat in a reclined fashion, as if one is on a short bed. By clicking here, we present a video of HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, demonstrating how Heseiba should be done YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Sat Mar 13 10:19:59 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 18:19:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] When Shabbat Goes into Yom Tov In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone seen a discussion of davening Ma'ariv for Yom Tov/Motsa"sh early when Shabbat goes into Yom Tov (e.g. Seder Night) - including the recitation of Va-Todi'einu Shavu'ah Tov and Chodesh Tov Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 10:37:23 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:37:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: The CRC sent out an email saying that soft matzah is not acceptable for Ashkenazim. The person who knows a great deal about soft matzah is Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky. A google search for Zivotofsky soft matza yields * The Halachic Acceptability of Soft Matzah halachicadventures.com ? 09 of Soft Matzah Rabbi Dr. Ari Z Zivotofsky Dr. Ari Greenspan Introduction The Torah (Shmot 12:18) commands all Jews, men and women alike, to eat matzah on the ?rst night of Pesach; yet nowhere does it explain how to make this required product or how it should look. For most Jews today, matzah is a thin, * The Thick and Thin of the History of Matzah www.hakirah.org ? Vol17Zivotofsky Ari Zivotofsky, Ph.D., is a rabbi and shoh?etand teaches in the Bar Ilan University brain science program. Together they have been researching mesorah, history and halakhah from Jewish communities around the world for over 30 years. They write extensively and lecture worldwide. * Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky www.torahinmotion.org ? sites ? default Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? and more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 15 06:12:42 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 13:12:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. After reciting Hamotzi, how much bread should be eaten before conversing? A. Ordinarily, after reciting a brocha on food, one may not speak until the beracha takes affect by swallowing a small bite of food. If one spoke before eating, the beracha is invalidated because of the hefsek (interruption) and must be repeated. While this is true for all foods, bread has a unique status. The Mishnah Berurah (167:35) writes that lichatchila (preferably), one should not talk until a kezayis (half the size of an egg) of bread is swallowed. However, if there is a pressing matter, one may converse after swallowing any amount. The Mishnah Berurah writes that if one spoke while chewing on the bread before swallowing, he is uncertain whether it is a beracha livatala (a blessing recited in vain) and perhaps the beracha would need to be repeated. Therefore, this should be avoided. However, the Chayei Adam writes that if a person swallowed some of the taste of the bread while chewing (even if not the actual bread itself), a new beracha is not said. In all cases, one should make an effort to swallow a kezayis of bread before talking. In the next Halacha Yomis we will discuss why bread is different than other foods. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:29:16 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:29:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sh'foch Chamas'cha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315202916.GA25399@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 04:47:11PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Please note the text of Tehillim 79-6, which appears in the Haggada as the > very first thing we say after benching. [Shefokh chamsekha...] > Personally, I don't know how he sees such a distinction between those who > "do not know You" and those who "do not call on your name"... Thinking "out loud": A polytheist could know there is a Creator, but call on someone else. Or henotheists. Perhaps RSRH believes such people are more likely to be in the opposition, rather than ignorant. And since we switch from amim to mamlakhos, we are switching from peoples to countries, entities with militaries. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger If you won't be better tomorrow http://www.aishdas.org/asp than you were today, Author: Widen Your Tent then what need do you have for tomorrow? - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 13:54:45 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:54:45 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] sheasani yisrael In-Reply-To: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <86E6D7F6-9E23-4C02-83A6-F7826998E09A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: <20210315205445.GC25399@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 03, 2021 at 01:02:59PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > About 50 years ago if I recall correctly I heard R' N Alpert ZT"L say that > the reason we don't say a bracha sheasani yisrael is that HKBH can only > give us the opportunity to be so but it is up to us to make ourselves so. Rabbi Yehudah, who authored an earlier version of the three berakhos (goy, bur, ishah) and the rebbe of R Meir who wrote our version says they are "who didn't make me" someone with fewer mitzvos. (Y-mi Berakhos vilna ed. 63b) And the chiyuvim and issurim are there whether or not one lives up to them. Maybe RMA is saying "she'asani Yisrael" would only be a berakhah if a person is on the tzaddiq side of the beinoni line? The Taz has an interesting argument (OC 46:4). He says that if the berakhos were framed as "she'asani", a person might think that nakhriim, slaves or women are less important creations. Rather, we say that while having been created a woman would have been a blessing, I thank the RBSO that I personally was given the role that has even yet more mitzvos than that! So, if RNA wants to build on the Taz, he could be saying the berakhah is thanking G-d for not only creating me with the opportunities to fulfill mitzvos of an X, but even more. On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 07:39:20PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure I understand. Aren't we taught that a Yisrael, even one > who has sinned, remains a Yisrael? So each of us is a Yisrael by birth > no matter what we do. The way I spun RNAlpert's idea in reply to RJR's post, I avoid this question. Yes, the person remains a Yisrael. But a sinful Yisrael. Like we tell the prospective geir: Why not remain a non-Jew and earn a lichtiger gan eden without all those duties and prohibitions? In any case, there is also the difference between Am Yisrael and Adas Yisrael. "Yisrael, af al pi shechata, Yisrael hu" refers to qedushas Am Yisrael. What RYBS calls the qedushah of the community of fate. But someone who isn't giving the eidus isn't a member of Adas Yisrael; they aren't participating in the qedushah of the community of destiny. The latter is used in the mishnah "Kol Yisrael yeish lahem cheileq le'olam haba" followed by the list of koferim, minim, apiqorsim and mumarim who don't. Because it is specifically all of Adas Yisrael who have a cheileq` RNAlpert could have meant that the berakhah "shelo asani Yisrael" would have meant "Adas Yisrael". But I like my first suggested peshat more. Feels more like something he actually would have said. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them, http://www.aishdas.org/asp I have found myself, my work, and my God. Author: Widen Your Tent - Helen Keller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:33:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:33:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] For trolley enthusiasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315213314.GC3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 06:39:57AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > For trolley enthusiasts: Reuvain (falls, jumps off from) the sixth floor > balcony. As he passes by the fourth floor a bullet from Shimon's fourth > floor apartment is released (maybe accidentally, or just to let off steam, > or to kill Levi across the street) piercing Reuvain's brain and destroying > it. As Reuvain's body passes the third floor and awning (which he and > Shimon were aware of or unaware of) (was open, or is opened/before Reuvain > reaches it) and breaks his fall. In each case what is the (secular, > halachic) cause of death? What liability is cast on each participant? One is not chayav for killing a tereifah or speeding up the death of a goseis. But it's still retzichah. So, just to get the post more attention, here is my guess: Shimon is oveir retzichah either way. The only question is punishability. Since lemafreia we know that Re'uvein wasn't omeid lamus, one would have said that Shimon's violation is punishable. Except that you set up a situation in which Shimon couldn't have been acting bemeizid and with hasra'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:28:05 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:28:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315212805.GB3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 10:31:53PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Then the entire crowd unites to daven mincha together. When the shliax > tzibbur recites Xazaras Hashatz, can he add a tefila for the leader's > health, either in Refa'einu or in Shema Kolenu? If not, why not? I thought "kol hameshaneh mimatbeia shetav'u chakhamim eino ela to'eh" refers to making it a norm. But the similarly phrased "... bibrakhos, lo yatza yedei chovaso", about the chasimah or whether it's a berakhah arukhah, is even once. In personal baqashos... It is one thing to make a tefillah for cholim in a time of need. But one isn't supposed to be inserting the Yehi Ratzon into EVERY Refa'einu for months or years on end. Here, IMHO the justification would be similar to that of adding baqashos to Sh"E during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah. "Zokhreinu lechaim", "Mi Khamokha", etc... Not the chasimos, which aren't baqashos but special seasonal matbeios. Which the Sha"tz says too. So, I would think the Chazan could / should say something in Refa'einu. But my 2 week search for meqoros turned up empty. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 14:13:38 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 17:13:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210315211338.GA3647@aishdas.org> We discussed this topic around 15 years ago. I ended up asking R Herschel Schachter. He brought proof from the Rama that Ashkenazim weren't making cracker-like matzos in his day. So of course the concept isn't a problem. (That said, I opened the question asking about a specific bakery which had just started taking on-line orders. So RHS reminded me that he hasn't looked at that bakery. While he can say the idea has no problems, he had no idea if the hekhsher checking the implementation is reliable.) You may recall that one of our more active members at the time was making wrap- or more accurately tortilla-like matzos. (Wraps usually contain yeast, and tortillas usually don't.) So the discussion got quite lively. I learned something else interesting in that discussion. Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A person lives with himself for seventy years, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and after it is all over, he still does not Author: Widen Your Tent know himself. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 15 15:07:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:07:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha In-Reply-To: References: <20210308183214.GB21061@aishdas.org> <20210309182259.GA17090@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20210315220748.GD3647@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10:39AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > 'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is > the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those > mitzvos? I think > ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem > raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah > kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh... Yes, this requires that the Borei actually commands them. But it's not quite what I would consider a partnership. G-d "participates" in the sense that according to R Meir Simchah haKohein qedushah is about the Inyan E-loki. The proximate cause is us; we are the only means of bringing that G-dliness into a place or object. R Yitzchak Blau has a lecture on Gush's VBM entitled "Sanctity in the Thought of R. Meir Simcha" at https://www.etzion.org.il/en/sanctity-thought-r-meir-simcha He has more examples there of the MC making statements about qedushah to this effect than I was researching. I was on Shemos 12:21 "mishkhu uqechu" when I found that RYB's lecture. Here's what I was open to: Vehinei yeish leha'arikh, shekol meqomos hamuqdashim ein YESODAM min hadas raq meiha'umah vehasharashim "Yesodam" is underlined in my MC. As he continues, all the das, the religious texts say is "the place where Hashem will choose." It's the places history as the place from where Adam was created and where Yitzchaq was ne'eqad that gives it qedushah. We don't identify a holy location by das, we identify it from the people. Also, "Raq Y-m vekhol EY veHar haMoriah benuyim al hisyachasum la'avoseinu". Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 16 04:53:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at mail.gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:53:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > Tortillas and wraps are usually made from dough (belila avah). > But they are sometimes made from batter (belila raqa). In > which case, they would be mezonos, even if you are qoveia > se'udah on a stack of them. So, check the label! Two questions: If a belila raqa is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin? If you need to check the label to determine something or other, then you're admitting that this product does have tzuras hapas, aren't you? The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah or raqa? Akiva Miller From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 16 08:18:02 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 11:18:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Soft Matzah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210316151802.GD3279@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:53:54AM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote: > If a belila rakah is baked, wouldn't it still be pas haba b'kisnin?... See the AhS OC 158:28, quoting the BY. Two baked goods, one avah and one raqa. The avah is "lechem gamur hu" and gets hamotzi and benching. And the ones that is rakah and very thin is mezonos and al hamichyah. But, as pas haba bekisnin -- it's a hamotzi if you are qoveia se'udah. BUT in se'ifim 47-48 he talks about a different baked good that is rakah, water and flour poured onto the kirah. The Tur says that it's mezonos normally, hamotzi if you are qoveia' se'udah. The BY says it's always mezonos -- he holds it's not lechem at all. (Which I concluded to mean, not even PhBbK.) In se'if 47, it is mezonos because there is even the littlest liquid underneath it, even if it's just to stick. In 48, there is a goma under it. Goma is apparentlly a pullrush or papyrus leaf. I am guessing that is also about not sticking. A modern factory bakery is greasing the baking surface to prevent sticking, so I assumed the latter se'ifim were closer to our topic. (In fact, it was the only case that stuck in my memory until I went back to the siman and had an "oh yeah!". I was that sure that's the case we typically face.) > The ingredient label can be very helpful in determining whether the > liquids are mostly water (pas gamur) or mostly mei peiros (pas haba > b'kisnin). But how would the label tell you whether it is belila avah > or raqa? I didn't mean the ingredient label. I meant check if there is anything written next to the hekhsher. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 16 00:20:30 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 07:20:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Several individuals have asked me to elucidate my question appearing in Avodah Digest, Vol 39, Issue 23 regarding early minha Maariv on Shabbat going into Yom Tov If you look at the Nosei Kelim in SA OH 293:3 (e.g., Mishna Berura no. 9), it is clear that Davening Minha/Maariv [before and After Plag - with va-Todi'einu in Ma'ariv] early on Shabbat afternoon going into Yom Tov (like this year), is considered a davar Tamu'ah and halakhically dangerous since people may start with preparations for yom tov (Seder) and even melakha - and not wait for Tseit ha-Kokhavim. Hence it is permitted only bi-she'at ha-dehak (See Mishna Berura). The question is whether with the change of clock to DST, starting the Seder as soon as possible after tseit so the young children and zekeinim will be able to stay up for the seder is enough of a She'at ha-dehak to permit it. Two poskim were consulted on 2 Nisan 5781 (March 15, 2021): Rav Asher Zelig Weiss and Rav Avraham Shraga Stiglitz both Shlita - and were meikel in such a case. It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles be lit and the seder begin. Kol Tuv and Pesach Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh -------------------------------------------------- Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Ethel and David Resnick Professor Emeritus of Active Oxygen Chemistry Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il. From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 08:19:58 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:19:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cracking the History of Soft Matzah Message-ID: This is a very interesting talk about soft matzah given by Rabbi dr. Ari Zivotofsky las year. The talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/podcast/cracking-the-history-of-soft-matzah Cracking the History of Soft Matzah | Torah In Motion Contact Us. Torah in Motion 3910 Bathurst Street, Suite 307 Toronto, ON M3H 5Z3 Canada Tel: (416) 633-5770 Toll Free: (866) 633-5770 info at torahinmotion.org www.torahinmotion.org The source material for this talk is at https://www.torahinmotion.org/sites/default/files/podcast/matzah_thick_thin_sources.pdf To whet your appetite about this talk, see the second source about finding moldy bread on Pesach in the above pdf file. YL Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky 1 Matzah: Thin and Hard vs. Thick and Soft Ari Zivotofsky (biblical mitzvah to eat matzah on the first night of Pesach ? what is it?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.torahinmotion.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 17 06:17:26 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 13:17:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Can one kasher drinking glasses for Pesach? A. Shulchan Aruch (451:26) writes that glass does not absorb and therefore does not need to be kashered. However, Rama (Orach Chaim 451:26) writes that the minhag of Ashkenazim is that glass that had been used with hot chametz may not be used on Pesach even if it was kashered. There are two reasons given for this. One reason is because we compare glass, which is made from sand, to cheres (earthenware), which is made from clay. Just as cheres cannot be kashered, likewise glass may not be kashered. The other reason is because we are concerned that one might not kasher glass properly for fear it might crack. Chayei Adam 125:22 writes that if it is difficult to purchase new drinking glasses for Pesach, glasses, which are used primarily for cold drinks, may be kashered with hagalah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 17 05:12:53 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:12:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance (e.g. distancing to try to save lives rather than to meet technical distance criteria) Thoughts on whether this is a common issue? I guess the other side is not looking at areas outside of ritual as being halachic issues? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at mail.gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:29:35 2021 From: jmeisner at mail.gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 12:29:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... This is a point that has been made often, even outside of the context of the frum community (Zeynep Tufekci has a number of good articles providing data points): that the fixation with hard rules such as 6 feet and 15 minutes rather than broad principles that could be intelligently applied to specific situations (such as Japan's three C's of avoiding close contact, crowded places, and closed spaces) and a tendency for experts (or politicians, perhaps) to take hold of false certainty (l'hakeil ul'hachmir) rather than a nuance born of an honest acknowledgement of how little we knew are among the greatest systemic failures of the Western COVID response. From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 17 16:05:11 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> References: <00D352FE-C511-44E0-967A-1F1D54255C7A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210317230511.GH19872@aishdas.org> On Mar 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Rich, Joel wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non-compliance > with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing the forest for the > trees. When one is taught to look at the letter of the law exclusively one > can forget about the spirit of the law. The goal becomes the technical > compliance ... I used a different metaphor in the opening of Widen Your Tent, that of an apprentice to an overly methofical carpenter. (Since it's a book about the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher, I called this chapter, "The Introduction to the Introduction".) The carpenter teaches his apprentice one skill at a time, mastering each in order before moving on to the next. So the young lad learns how to use a hammer, learning how to drive the nail in, straight and true, in just a few blows. Then he is introduced to the screwdriver, in all its variants. And when he learns how to screw into any wood without stripping the threads or the head of a Phillips screwdriver, they move on the trade's various saws. And so on through the whole toolset. In fact, the master teaches his apprentice multiple opinions about proper technique, and even ways to use the tools according to various opinions of how to maximize success at the same time. And then, as they just complete practicing a few ways of joining corners, the master, sadly, dies, leaving the student knowing everything about woodwork, but with only a layman's knowledge of the construction of a cabinet, table, or chair. Or how to build shelves that can support the weight of a library of books, and the like. And the apprentice is even further from any knowledge of how to express himself artistically, such as through detailed woodworking." This problem is worse than the forest vs. the trees. It's knowing how to walk (the "halakh" of halakhah) and not knowing where to go (having a derekh). If you miss the forest for the trees, at least you have trees. If you don't know how to define the goals halakhah are to help you reach in a way that works for you, you could walk the wrong direction. Rav Chananel bar Papa said: What is meant by, "Hear, for I will speak princely things, [and my lips will open with what is right]" (Mishlei 8:6)? Words of Torah are compared to a ruler, to tell you that just as a ruler has power of life and death, so too the words of the Torah [have potential for] life or death. As Rava said: To those who go to the right side of it, it is a sam hachaim, a medicine for life; to those who go to its left, it is a sam hamaves, an elixir of death. - Shabbos 88a In addition to creating a culture where people don't bother thinking about what all the CoVID rules are for, since we're used to just thinking about the rules (to summarize how I heard RJR's point), there is a more direct connection. We've become so obsessed with personal observance, with "frumkeit", that we risk lives in ways that would be unthinkable to true ovedei Hashem. Religion as a literal sam hamaves. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 04:52:56 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 07:52:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Selling Chometz on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In a regular year, Erev Pesach (for those who sell their chometz) is rather simple. For the early morning, we can do whatever we want with our chometz, including eating it, and doing business with it. At a certain point, we must stop eating it, and shortly thereafter, the rav sells all the chometz that we've set aside to a non-Jew. This year, the rav will obviously do this business with the non-Jew before Shabbos; it is a regular business transaction, and all the papers must be signed etc etc etc before Shabbos begins. But exactly when is this kinyan chal? Exactly when is the ownership transferred, and when does the rental of the storage space begin? My point is this thread is to suggest that each person should check with their rav to find out the answer. Perhaps there are ways to do all the paperwork etc before Shabbos, yet have it not take effect until a certain time on Shabbos morning. That would be very convenient. But if it all takes effect on Erev Shabbos, then there are several practical ramifications that people might not realize, especially for those who have reserved some chometz to be eaten on Shabbos. If the sale has already taken place on Erev Shabbos, then all my chometz MUST be gotten rid of on Shabbos morning. If the challah was too large for everyone to eat, I do not have the option of putting the remainder with the chometz to be sold. The sale already took place, and this chometz will remain mine. My only options are to eat it, or do some other form of biur. On the flip side, I also don't have the option of retrieving something from the "chometz to be sold" area. In a normal year, if it is Erev Pesach morning and there is an item in the "to be sold" area that I want to eat, there's no problem eating it. But this year, if the sale already took place on Erev Shabbos, then it is too late. Even entering that area would be a violation of the rental agreement. So if you're planning to sell your chometz this year, please ask your rav when the sale takes effect. Or show me where my logic is mistaken. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 10:14:47 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 13:14:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . R' Joel Rich wrote: > IMHO the issue alluded to (in a post concerning orthodox non- > compliance with Covid rules) may be more of one of not seeing > the forest for the trees. When one is taught to look at the > letter of the law exclusively one can forget about the spirit > of the law. The goal becomes the technical compliance (e.g. > claiming kids are part of a permitted demonstration rather than > learning in school) vs. technical and meta compliance ... If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz sale contract..." cite: https://collive.com/rabbis-decide-to-unilateraly-sell-chometz-of-europes-jews/ I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. But this is an entirely different case. I appreciate the rabbis' desire to minimize the violations of these tinolos shenishbu. But it seems to me that this mechira would have the effect of totally circumventing the entire halacha of Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach. Details would need to be studied (like the status of chametz that a store acquires during Pesach) but on the simple face of it, this mechira would allow any of us to shop anywhere in chu"l after Pesach (at least b'dieved). The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law says not. When a Jew does melacha on Shabbos, and I want to get hanaah from it, halacha makes distinctions whether the melacha was done b'shogeg or b'meizid. Similar distinctions could have been applied to Chametz She'avar Alav Hapesach, but instead, Chazal chose to legislate a boycott, in the hopes that these Jews would mend their ways. CONCLUSION AND DISCLAIMER: I am NOT suggesting that these rabanim are wrong. It is their job to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of such an idea. All I'm saying is that it seems to be a great example of how an implementation of the Letter might go very much against the Spirit. (And if it turns out that this article didn't get the story right, it's still an example of how Letter and Spirit *might* conflict.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Mar 19 09:31:21 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:31:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? A. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 463:3) rules that flour made from roasted wheat kernels may not be mixed with water on Pesach. Even though wheat that is fully roasted cannot become chometz, we are concerned that perhaps some kernels were not properly roasted, and subsequently, the flour might become chometz when mixed with water. The same concern applies to matzah with flour on its surface. It is forbidden to mix such matzah with water because the flour may not be fully baked and would be susceptible to becoming chometz (MB 463:8). Where there is no perceptible flour in or on the matzah, is there a concern that some of the dough may not have been thoroughly mixed, and within the matzah there may be raw flour that was not fully baked? There are two different customs; Mishnah Berurah (458:4) notes that there are anshei ma?aseh, scrupulous individuals, who act stringently and do not allow matzah to come in contact with water, as perhaps it may contain unbaked flour. Many Chassidim have this custom. However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. Shaarei Teshuva, (OC 460:10) notes that both groups are meritorious. Those who do not eat gebrochts are motivated by yiras shomayim (fear of heaven), lest they inadvertently transgress the laws of Pesach. The ones who are lenient are concerned that not eating gebrochts will limit their simchas (joy of) Yom Tov. Shaarei Teshuva concludes: ?Both groups are pursuing paths for the sake of Heaven, and I declare: And Your people are entirely righteous (Yeshaya 60:21).? I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well. " YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Fri Mar 19 05:19:02 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:19:02 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday Message-ID: <0d4301d71cba$0c5d12c0$25173840$@touchlogic.com> Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Sun Mar 21 14:45:42 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:45:42 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] avel showering Friday In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 21, 2021 06:06:56 pm Message-ID: <16163811420.61bcacf5f.47748@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > Does anyone know a source for the (common) belief that showering is > ok for an avel on Friday as prep for Shabbos? > I think you need to clarify this common belief, before you ask the question. The belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may shower on Friday, to prepare for Shabbath, for yourself. Rather, the belief is that public aveluth, on Shabbath, spoils the mood, for others. If other people can notice that you have not showered, then your aveluth is intruding into the public space. If you smell like roses, the belief is not -- at least, I hope it is not -- that you may nevertheless shower because you feel better when you do. It's not about you. It is the same logic that would allow you to stay (according to some opinions) after the xuppa at your daughter's wedding, if you are in aveluth -- not because you are allowed to celebrate her wedding, but because your absence would reduce her celebration. Of course, this hetter does not apply to weddings where there is a mexitza between the men and the women, because then your daughter cannot know that you are there anyway. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 07:22:41 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:22:41 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I sometimes become hungry and thirsty during Maggid. May I eat a snack or drink a coffee? A. The second cup of wine at the seder is filled after karpas so that Maggid (the central portion of the Haggadah) will be recited over the cup of wine. The Mishnah Berurah writes that after filling the cup, it is inappropriate to drink a separate cup of wine (Be?ur Halachah 473:3 s.v. Harishus). Both Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichos Shlomo, Hil. Pesach 9:34) and Rav Elyashiv (Shevus Yitzchok, Pesach 9:3) maintain that only wine is restricted, but in cases of necessity, one is permitted to drink water or coffee. Rav Elyashiv explains that unless there is a pressing need, even water should be avoided because the Haggadah should be recited with a sense of awe and reverence (see Mishnah Berurah 473:71). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 10:37:33 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:37:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322173733.GB27896@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 01:14:47PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > If the topic of discussion is Spirit vs Letter of the law, I will cite an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." It's not really the Spirit vs the Letter of the Law, which is a Pauline concept. It's how much conformance to the spirit of the law are we obligated to obey beyond its letter. > I do understand that some poskim allow Mechiras Chometz for someone even > without their knowledge, but I've always presumed that would be used for > people who are R"L unconscious and unable to sell it themselves. I would think because they are unlikely to get hana'ah from the chameitz, and therefore it's a case of zokhin le'adam shelo befanav. Here we would have to argue that consuming stolen chameitz is less than an issur than owning and consuming chameitz. And enough of a clear advantage that you can invoke "zokhin le'adam". So, I don't see: > The Letter of the law says this is a great idea. But the Spirit of the law > says not. Because I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the da'as of the maqneh. So I would have argued the reverse: the spirit of the idea of no Jews owning chameitz on Pesach says it's a great idea, but it seems to me it would be the letter of the law that says it's impossible. As you phrased things, and you feel the halakhos of mechirah are met, there is a spirit of the law not being violated -- he shouln't want to own chameitz. I mean, this is far gentler than "kofin oso af al pi she'omer 'Rotzeh ani!'" I am wondering if there is an "al pi nistar" that is being addressed with even the flimsiest excuse of a sale. (While not a Chabad group, founder R Menachem Margolin and most (? all?) of the other members of RCE and EJA are Lubavitcher Chassidim. So, when I don't understand what they're doing al pi nigleh, I wonder if they have some al pi nistar motive.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp, http://www.aishdas.org/asp And the Torah, its light. Author: Widen Your Tent - based on Mishlei 6:2 - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 22 09:55:48 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 12:55:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] early maariv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210322165547.GA27896@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 07:20:30AM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > It must be reiterated that no preparations or Melaka can be done > until Shabbat is over (Tseit haKokhavim). Only then can Yom Tov candles > be lit and the seder begin. This is generally what one hears as pesaq. And I understand warning people not to forget that melakhah is prohibited, even for the seder. (The RBSO also had to remind us that melakhah is prohibited even for the Miskan.) But I don't get reason for saying no hakhanah. I would think that since the seder (or any se'udas Yom Tov) is a devar mitzvah, a shevus, such as hakhanah, would be allowed during bein hashemashos. (Assuming no melakhah is involved.) I found some sources when we discussed this back in v33n46. https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n046.shtml#01 The Rambam (Shabbos 254:10), MB 211:28, 30, AhS OC 261:11 (who allows "lidevar mitzvah o tzorekh harbei", arguably not delaying the seder is both.) So I don't know why "everyone" bans setting the table, getting the pillows and kitls out, etc..., until tzeis. It seems to me that the MB and AhS would agree you could start at sheqi'ah. Of course, I'm no poseiq. Just wondering about the gap between what I learned and the generally repeated pesaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow http://www.aishdas.org/asp man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries Author: Widen Your Tent about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 22 14:57:33 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:57:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2205c312-d18c-b963-6a89-e4de0bf1661e@sero.name> On 19/3/21 12:31 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > I note the following in the above. " However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid., > citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not > /halachicaly/ mandated, Of course it isn't. Literally nobody claims it is. So what does your citation achieve? -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 14:58:13 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 21:58:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] cRc Kashrus Alerts In-Reply-To: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> References: <1616440493051.50404865.143706198.24137534722@backend.cp20.com> Message-ID: ________________________________ Tevilas Keilim Update Having trouble reading this email? View it in your browser.<{{onlineview()}}> [KASHRUTH ALERT HEADER] March 22, 2021 Last year, due to COVID-19 restrictions, consumers who were unable to tovel their new keilim (utensils) before Pesach were advised to make them ownerless (mafkir) to exempt them from tevilah. This was a special leniency due to COVID-19 when the local mikvaos were closed. This year, Boruch Hashem. those restrictions have been lifted as the mikvaos are open and have been deemed safe to use. Accordingly, before using those keilim which were made ownerless last year, one should ?reacquire? them by picking them up and then tovel them (with a bracha, if required). Anyone who is still unable to arrange for the tevila of their kelim due to exigent circumstances should be in touch with us for further instructions. Chag Kasher v'Sameach. ************************************************************************************ TO REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, please send your comment or question to the cRc at info at crcweb.org The cRc?s app is available for the iPhone, Android, Kindle, and BlackBerry 10. For product information see our Web-based Application ASKcRc where kosher consumers can check the kosher status of hechsherim, beverages, liquors, foods, fruits & vegetables, Slurpees, medicines, and more. The information is accessible via a simple search box, and the site is optimized to work on mobile as well as desktop devices. https://ASKcRc.org http://twitter.com/crckosher http://cRcweb.org Chicago Rabbinical Council 2701 W Howard Street Chicago Illinois 60645-1303 United States This email was sent to: llevine at stevens.edu Unsubscribe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Mar 22 15:39:14 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:39:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 22 16:35:27 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:35:27 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder Message-ID: I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of things about the seder. I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. The following is from his Introduction to his Shiurim on the Haggadah: >From my earliest youth, 1 remember that children would ask each other on the first morning of Pesach, "How long did your Seder take?" This was true in my youth, and it is still the case today. If the children were to ask me this now, 1 would answer them, "I made sure to eat the afikoman before chatzos (midnight)." According to some poskim, even the recitation of Halle[ should be completed before chatzos. I must point out that the present-day practice in which all the children read from the prepared sheets they received in school is not exactly in accordance with the mitzvah of and you shall tell to your children, etc. (ibid.). The children have initiated a new mitzvah of and you shall tell to your father and mother, which makes it very challenging to perform the mitzvah of achilas matzah and certainly the achilas a{zkoman - before chatzos. YL YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 20:06:44 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:06:44 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules Message-ID: . I wrote about an > article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel will > include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz > sale contract..." R' Micha Berger wrote: > I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the > da'as of the maqneh. A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak, I'm not going to be the one who says that the Rabbanut is wrong for choosing to do it. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Mar 23 06:38:53 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:38:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Preparing for the Seder This Year Message-ID: The following is from today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. Being that this year Shabbos is Erev Pesach when should the preparation of the shank bone, charoses, marror, roasted egg, salt water and checking the romaine lettuce take place? A. Seder preparations should be done on Friday, as it is prohibited to prepare on Shabbos for the next day. (This is known as hachana. One may not even nap on Shabbos and say, ?I am resting now to be alert at the Seder?. See M.B. 290.4.) While it would be permitted to prepare some of these items on Saturday night, it would delay the start of the Seder. Much of the seder focuses on the children, and it is important to start the seder as soon as possible before the children fall asleep (M.B.482.1). According to the Vilna Gaon, horseradish should always be grated immediately before the seder so that it will be sharp. Others say it should be grated before Shabbos and stored in a sealed jar to maintain the sharpness as much as possible. If one forgot to prepare horseradish before Shabbos, the grating should preferably be done with a shinui (deviation, such as grating on a paper towel or turning the grater upside down). Romaine lettuce that requires checking for infestation should be checked before Shabbos. One must be careful to drain the lettuce very well. Otherwise, water might accumulate in the bags, and any parts of the lettuce that soaks in water for more than twenty-four hours may not be used for maror (M.B. 473.38). If salt water was not prepared in advance, it can made on Yom Tov (implication of Mishna Berurah 473:21), though some recommend using a shinui by putting the water in the vessel before the salt (Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 118:4). If charoses was not made before Shabbos, the fruit may be grated on Yom Tov, but the nuts should be prepared with a shinui (Shemiras Shabbos Kihilchoso 7:4) (such as crushing in a bag). No deviation is needed when adding the wine (see M.B.495:8). It is preferable to roast the shank bone and egg before Shabbos. If roasted on Yom Tov, they must be eaten on that day of Yom Tov. Since one may not eat roasted meat or chicken at the seder, the shank bone that was prepared Saturday night must be eaten at the Sunday daytime meal (MB 473:32). In general, one may not prepare food on the first day of Yom Tov if the intention is to consume it on the second day or after Yom Tov. (This would constitute hachana, which is forbidden.) As such, another shank bone and egg will have to be roasted Sunday night for the second seder, and the same is true for the preparation of marror, charoses and salt water. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan.engel at mail.gmail.com Tue Mar 23 06:58:06 2021 From: allan.engel at mail.gmail.com (allan.engel at mail.gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:58:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 00:59, Prof. L. Levine wrote: > I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck > the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in > the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to > expect. They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah. > Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of > things about the seder. > > I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do. ... I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the 14th Nissan). This would suggest short Sedarim. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:29:12 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:29:12 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323142912.GC31103@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:06:44PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi > Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef > Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or > were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that > they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha). > So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for > Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak... I did't have that big of a problem with the idea of invoking ZlASbF, where the person wasn't going to get hana'ah from the chameitz. Like the people going to RYEH last minute before Pesach. Or my example of someone in a coma. But if people are alive and well and keeping their chameitz around and don't even know it is sold, it isn't a pure zekhus to sell it. They want their chameitz to use it. So, I don't think this precedent addresses my discomfort with the idea. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element http://www.aishdas.org/asp in us could exist without the human element Author: Widen Your Tent or vice versa. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 07:57:37 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:57:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323145736.GD31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 01:58:06PM +0000, allan.engel at gmail.com wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night... Assuming they held like R Elazar ben Azariah and like R Eliezer in the two machloqesin discussed on Berakhos 9a. R Aqiva and R Yehoshua hold the mitzvah is until the morning. (The first machloqes is about the word "boqer", the second is how to parse Devarim 16:6 -- do you eat kevo hasemesh (sunset to chatzos), or until mo'eid tzesekha miMitzrayim?) Stam Mishnah Pesachim 10:9 talks about the pesach being metamei the hands after chatzos, because that's when it becomes nosar (TY vilna 71b, TB 120b). Zevachim 37a states that this mishnah is according to R Aqiva. The Rambam (Hil' Qorban Pesach 8:15) says the Pesach is only eaten until midnight kedai leharchiq min ha'aveirah, and deOraisa it's okay all night. So he hold like R Aqiva and R Yehoshua, with the kelal we get from R Gamliel in 1:1 that any mitzvah that is permitted all night deOraisa has a derabbanan making it lekhatchilah before chatzos, leharciq min ha'aveirah. So, whether they were very careful with a safe estimate or chatzos-ish was good enough depended on who they held like. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is http://www.aishdas.org/asp excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety: Author: Widen Your Tent 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 23 07:46:28 2021 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:46:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: From a letter to the editor: Although abortion is not necessarily considered to be an act of murder, it is nonetheless prohibited in accordance with Halakha (Jewish law). The statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect, as well. Any modern ruling is based on our teachings that go back to our receiving the Torah at Mount Sinai. The laws that we follow are g-d given and not something that the Jewish people came up with in their 40 years in the desert. The author clearly has no grasp on our true heritage and unfortunately feels that she can opine in an area where she has no expertise. Me- I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? CKVS Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 08:55:14 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:55:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323155513.GE31103@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 02:46:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness > of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," > is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a > way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) > that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts? There are cases where halakhah grows to cover new situations. In many of them we could have extrapolated very different pesaqim for the new from what exists already. Like, in the case of electricity on Shabbos. So, halakhah grows. Changes in facts on the ground don't drive an "evolution" of halakhah. They're really just a non-obvious case of the above. The whole point of such changes isn't that we switched sides on a machloqes, but that the side chosen in the past doesn't work in the new case. So we need to grow new halakhah for the new situation. Even if on most levels it feels like we're doing the same thing but with a new pesaq. Like educable deaf-mutes. We didn't do away with din cheireish. And anyone uneducable because they can neither hear nor talk would qualify. We just don't have too many people like that any more. (RHS, for example, includes the pesi, the sane but intellectually diabled, as cheireish not shoteh. With implications (e.g.) WRT gittin after brain injury.) And then there are cases of actual evolution, where we are following new pesaqim. Halakhah evolves but according kelalei pesaq. Of course, kelalei pesaq are themselves subject to pesaqim, so they could evolve as well. And precedent isn't the only kelal in pesaq. Or, if precedent shifts unconsciously, mimetically. Like an increase in the number of people who just take it for granted that they should look to the soft-stringencies (baal nefesh yachmir and such) in the MB for their rulings rather than the MB's pesaqim or the AhS's. Or RMF grows in esteem, and LORs shift from R Henkin's pesaqim to spending more time with IM. The publishing (and new editions) of Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhasa similarly changed which pesaqim the LOR spends time analyzing, and which get accepted. So, rulings can in principle change. That was a very legal description. R/Dr Moshe Koppel convinced me of a very Rupture-and-Reconstruction-esque understanding of how halakhah evolves, in which dinim are more like laws of a language. So, at Har Sinai, we didn't need as many pesaqim. We were fully emersed in the halachic language, and had a native speaker's ear for what sounds right. And a good poet, a navi, can know just how and when the rules can be occasionally bent or even more rarely broken. But as we lose that culture we become more like English as a second language students, who need more rules. (And we have no idea what's valid poetic license.) And so, as we lose culture halakhah gains formality and rigidity. A steady shift from a mimetic "sounds right" to a textual law book. Until a rupture can cause a major step in this progression. Moshe dies, laws are lost, Osniel ben Kenaz is meyaseid them again. Numerous dinim were similarly codified by Anshei Keneses haGedolah, this is R/Dr Koppel's take on shakhechum vechazar veyasdum. And then we needed a mishnah, an actual structured code to memorize. Then shas, then writing them down... then rishonim wrote codes, and to add my own example -- the way the AhS and then MB were embraced. That is a kind of evolution where the range of valid practices narrow for a situation that didn't change nor did we learn more about the situation. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:28:39 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:28:39 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Evolved" implies an improvement, to a form more adapted to survival and therefore better. The Jewish view of the way halacha has changed over the years is one of devolution; both when we become more lenient because we don't care as much, and when we become stricter because we need it to correct our tendency to leniency, or because we have lost the knowledge on which our ancestors' leniency depended ("ein anu beki'in"). -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 23 12:17:14 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:17:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f754e36-46c3-705d-e762-e28417b4da88@sero.name> On 23/3/21 9:58 am, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote: > I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average > person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos > Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish > eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa > (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the > 14th Nissan). Not necessarily. Sinch chatzos is only a geder to prevent it running past dawn, people may have been generous in calculating it, knowing that if they ran over it by a little it was no big deal. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il Tue Mar 23 10:48:22 2021 From: Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il (Aryeh Frimer) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:48:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat. I turned to Rabbi Eli Gersten who wrtites the OU's Halacha Yomis Column this very question and I forward his answer with his permission. Question: Regarding: Halacha Yomis - Prepping The Seder Plate Since Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat, why can't Hakhanot for the Seder be done on Shabbat? Yiyasher Kochacha for your informative and lucid articles Chak Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach Aryeh Answer: Yes, and No. See below what the Chayei Adam [Hilkhot Shabbat U-Moadim, sec. 153:6] writes about being maichen on Shabbos or Yomtov for a davar Mitzvah. There are many rules. Only for a dvar mitzvah, and even then only partial hachana, and done with a shinuy, and not close to end of Shabbos, so it is not obvious... ??? ??? ??? ?-? (????? ??? ???????) ??? ??? ???? ? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????. ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ??????? ???? ???, ??? ????. ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ???? (????? ?? ??? ???? ?"? ???? ???' ??"? ???? ?' ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?' ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?"? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????"? ????? ???? ?? ?' ?"? ????? ?? ????? ??' ??"? ?? ?????? ??' ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??"?), ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????. ??? ???? ?????"? ????? ??"? ??"? ???"? ????? ????? ??????? ????, ?? ??????? ????. ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????. ????? ??? ????? ??"? ?? ???? ??' ???? ??"? ?"?. ???? ?? ??"? ??"? ?? ??"? ????? ????? ??"? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????. ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???, ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ?? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????, ??? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????, ?? ????. ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????. ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????. Rabbi Eli Gersten Rabbinic Coordinator 212-613-8222-phone Gerstene at ou.org Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 23 16:47:46 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:47:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210323234746.GC24196@aishdas.org> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 05:48:22PM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote: > There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From > Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often > permitted on Shabbat. I specifically brought up starting at sheqei'ah instead of waiting for tzeis because it then involves two factors and there is STRONG consensus to allow: shevus bein hashemeshos, and lidevar mitzvah. No new sources since last time. Just pointing out that The answer from R Eli Gersten of OU's Halacha Yomis doesn't actually help me understand why we cannot start setting the seder table at sheqi'ah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When we are no longer able to change a situation http://www.aishdas.org/asp -- just think of an incurable disease such as Author: Widen Your Tent inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF ourselves. - Victor Frankl (MSfM) From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Tue Mar 23 19:35:46 2021 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 02:35:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish law has evolved Message-ID: <278FC3E1-165C-4DFE-89FF-DA7AD035BF6B@tenzerlunin.com> "I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts?? My thought is that Jewish law is too complex to sum up in a letter to the editor even if everyone reading it is Orthodox. And, of course, Jews who are not Orthodox have a different view of Jewish law. Thus, to say in a letter to the editor that "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so? is correct or incorrect is an exercise of futility. Joseph From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:54:54 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:54:54 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Egg Matza on Shabbos Erev Pesach Message-ID: . In last week's issue of Ami magazine (4 Nisan, #510) Rabbi Moshe Taub's column is about Shabbos Erev Pesach. On page 162, he gives ideas for how to do the seudos, writing: "B. Use egg matzah. This would only work for Ashkenazim,..." Why would this not work for Sefaradim? Do they hold that egg matza is not pas habaa bkisnin? Do they hold that Pas habaa bkisnin remains mezonos even when one is kovea seuda on it? Maybe it's just not practical to eat 3-4 kebtitzos of it. Any other ideas? thanks Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 06:38:09 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:38:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Some people do not want to have any chametz on the table Shabbos erev Pesach. Can kosher for Pesach egg matzos be used for lechem mishneh? A. Egg matzah is in the category of pas ha?ba b?kisnin (bread-like items that are usually eaten for a snack). Ordinarily, if one eats egg matzah the bracha is borei minai mezonos, unless it is part of a substantial meal. Nonetheless, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe OC 1:155) writes that if egg matzah is used for lechem Mishnah for a Shabbos meal, the bracha is hamotzi. One should make sure to eat at least a kibaiya (a little more than 2 fl. oz) of egg matzah, in addition to other foods that will be served at the meal. According to many opinions egg matzah can only be eaten as long as chometz can be consumed, which is the end of the fourth hour. The Rema (OC 444:1) writes that in our communities, egg matzah is not eaten on Pesach. Therefore, on erev Pesach one should fulfill shalosh seudos with fruit. The implication of Rema is that egg matzah may not be eaten on erev Pesach in the afternoon. However, the Chok Yaakov (444:1) writes that it is possible that the Rema only meant that one is not required to find egg matzah for Shalosh Seudos since it was uncommon in their communities, but if one had egg matzah it may be eaten. The Sharei Teshuva (444:2) as well writes that there is a basis to be lenient. Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doniels at gmail.com Wed Mar 24 08:30:39 2021 From: doniels at gmail.com (Danny Schoemann) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:30:39 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months Message-ID: Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles with the source of the name Marcheshvan. Online at https://www.sefaria.org.il/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Even_HaEzer.126.17 (Interestingly enough, in 126:19 he says there's a Kometz under these months, Nison, Iyor, Sivon, Marcheshvon, Shvot, Ador.) Kol Tuv - Danny On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, R' Brent Kaufman wrote: >> Now that the ancient pantheons of gods have been brought up, can anyone >> give an explanation for why the we name our months after Babylonian gods? RMB replied: > Of the ones we know translations for, only Tammuz. Warach Dumuzu means "the month of [the god] Tammuz". > This month, Warach Samnu, which becomes Marcheshvan when mem and yud/vav swap during the borrowing, simply means "8th month". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Mar 24 03:39:37 2021 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:39:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement Message-ID: The fact it that the Shabbatzi Tzvi movement swept the Jewish world. Many important rabbonim became his followers. For example, see my article "Recife - The First Jewish Community in the New World" The Jewish Press, June 3, 2005, page 32. Glimpses into American Jewish History Part 3. The concluding paragraph there is *After finishing this article I discovered that Rabbi Isaac Aboab da Fonseca was apparently a follower of Shabbtai Tzvi. (See www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. jsp?artid=344&letter=A#810, The Sabbatean Prophets by Matt Goldish page 33, and Sabbatai Sevi by Gershom Scholem, pages 520-522.) To put it mildly, I was shocked, given the greatness of Rabbi Aboab. However, it made me realize how strong the messianic movement in the 17th century must have been to gain adherents of Rabbi Aboab`s caliber. Jacob Sasportas was one of the most violent antagonists of the Shabbethaian movement; he wrote many letters to various communities in Europe, Asia, and Africa, exhorting them to unmask the impostors and to warn the people against them. However, I do not believe that he was considered a gadol by many. So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 10:52:04 2021 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:52:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) In-Reply-To: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> References: <106901d71f6c$30019ca0$9004d5e0$@touchlogic.com> Message-ID: I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. For example, at https://baisdovyosef.com/2861-a-clean-slate-on-clean-hands/ Rabbi Bartfeld quotes him as stringent on foaming soap. My chevrusa asked Rabbi Felder from Toronto to ask him about this, and he said he is mattir whipped cream from a can on Shabbos /v'harei ha'devarim kal va'chomer/. KT, CKvS, YGB On 3/22/2021 6:39 PM, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%20all.doc?dl=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Avodah mailing list > Avodah at lists.aishdas.org > http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:30:10 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:30:10 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:39:37AM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement? Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for him. So, those who wanted to believe had who to rely on. (Kind of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it actually is cosidered "a thing".) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Circumstances don't make a person, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they reveal a person. Author: Widen Your Tent - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 24 12:34:22 2021 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:34:22 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Names of Months In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210324193422.GB16038@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 05:30:39PM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote: > Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles > with the source of the name Marcheshvan. It his conclusion of that discussion says that he considers these explanations derashos, because RYME writes "Amnam be'eemes ein doreshin besheimos". So, I don't think he is repeating them as possible sources as much as derashos some find meaningful. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 13:31:29 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:31:29 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement In-Reply-To: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 03:30 PM 3/24/2021, Micha Berger wrote: >Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > >There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei >hador. Didn't help. There was not a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei hador. Jacob Sasportas was the one who had the courage to come out against the movement. He was essentially a loan voice. Others either went along with the movement or said nothing. R. Eybeschutz was himself suspected of being a follower of ST. in fact, I believe that his son outwardly became a follower. Whether R. Eybeschutz was indeed a follower was never fully determined. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz YL From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 24 17:10:47 2021 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] R. Eybeschutz and ST In-Reply-To: <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> References: <20210324193010.GA16038@aishdas.org> <31.EB.11863.422AB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1a5601d720fc$6ec60e80$4c522b80$@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1B.B0.11863.285DB506@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 06:24 PM 3/24/2021, micha at aishdas.org wrote: >I grew up living around the corner from the home of R SZ Leiman. He davened >(davens?) in the shteibl where my father sheyichyeh was president. I kind of >heard this story before, in a lot more detail. Which is why my post got >written to begin with. > >You are mistaken. The RYE vs RYE fight was one of many. Keep in mind that Rabbi Eybeschutz was born in 1690, long after Shabbatai Tzvi converted to Islam. Indeed ST died in 1676. Hence he could not have been involved in any discussion about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. Rabbi Yaakov Emden was born in 1697, so he also could not have been involved in any discussions about ST being Moshiach when ST was alive. The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Eybeschutz Already in Prague 1724, he was suspected of being a Sabbatean. He even got up on Yom Kippur to denounce the Sabbatean movement, but he remained suspected.[2] Therefore, In 1736, Rav Eybeschutz was only appointed dayan of Prague and not chief rabbi. He became rabbi of Metz in 1741. In 1750, he was elected rabbi of the "Three Communities:" Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbek. In July 1725, the Ashkenazic beit din of Amsterdam issued a ban of excommunication on the entire Sabbatian sect (kat ha-ma?aminim). Writings of Sabbatian nature found by the beit Din at that time were attributed to Rav Eybeschutz [3] In early September, similar excommunication proclamations were issued by the batei din of Frankfurt and the triple community of Altona, Hamburg, and Wandsbeck. The three bans were printed and circulated in other Jewish communities throughout Europe.[4] Rabbi Ezekiel Katzenellenbogen, the chief rabbi of the Triple Community [5] was unwilling to attack Rav Eybesch?tz publicly, mentioning that ?greater than him have fallen and crumbled? and that ?there is nothing we can do to him? [6] However, Rabbi Katzenelenbogen stated that one of the texts found by the Amsterdam beit din "Va-Avo ha-Yom el ha-Ayyin? was authored by Rav Jonathan Eybesch?tz and declared that the all copies of the work that were in circulation should be immediately burned. [7]As a result of Rav Eybeschutz and other rabbis in Prague formulating a new (and different) ban against Sabbatianism shortly after the other bans were published, his reputation was restored and Rav Eybeschutz was regarded as having been totally vindicated.[8] The issue was to arise again, albeit tangentially, in the 1751 dispute between Rav Emden and Rav Eybeschutz. Sabbatian controversy Rav Eybesch?tz again became suspected of harboring secret Sabbatean beliefs because of a dispute that arose concerning the amulets which he was suspected of issuing. It was alleged that these amulets recognized the Messianic claims of Sabbatai Zevi.[9] The controversy started when Rav Yaakov Emden found serious connections between the Kabbalistic and homiletic writings of Rav Eybeschutz with those of the known Sabbatean Judah Leib Prossnitz, whom Rav Eybesch?tz knew from his days in Prossnitz.[2] Rabbi Jacob Emden accused him of heresy.[9] The majority of the rabbis in Poland, Moravia, and Bohemia, as well as the leaders of the Three Communities supported Rav Eybesch?tz: the accusation was "utterly incredible"?in 1725, Rav Eybesch?tz was among the Prague rabbis who excommunicated the Sabbateans. Others suggest that the Rabbis issued this ruling because they feared the repercussions if their leading figure, Rav Eybesch?tz, was found to be a Sabbatean. Rabbi Jacob Emden suggests that the rabbis decided against attacking Eybeschutz out of a reluctance to offend his powerful family and a fear of rich supporters of his living in their communities [10] The recent discovery of notarial copies of the actual amulets found in Metz and copying the amulets written by Rav Eyebeschutz support Rav Emden's view that these are Sabbatean writings.[11] In 1752, the controversy between Rav Emden and Rav Eybesch?tz raged.Clashes between opposing supporters occurred in the streets drawing the attention of the secular authorities.[12] Rav Emden fled. The controversy was heard by both the Senate of Hamburg and by the Royal Court of Denmark. The Hamburg Senate quickly found in favour of Rav Eybeschutz.[13] The King of Denmark asked Rav Eybeschutz to answer a number of questions about the amulets.Conflicting testimony was put forward and the matter remained officially unresolved[14] although the court imposed fines on both parties for civil unrest and ordered that Rav Emden be allowed to return to Altona.[15] At this point Rav Eybeschutz was defended by Carl Anton, a convert to Christianity, but a former disciple of Rav Eybesch?tz.[16] Rav Emden refused to accept the outcome and sent out vicious pamphlets attacking Rav Eybeschutz.[17] Rav Eyebeschutz was re-elected as Chief Rabbi. In December of that year, the Hamburg Senate rejected both the King's decision and the election result. The Senate of Hamburg started an intricate process to determine the powers of Rav Eybesch?tz, and many members of that congregation demanded that he should submit his case to rabbinical authorities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Mar 24 20:30:38 2021 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 23:30:38 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav Shlomo Miller of Toronto (3100 questions) Message-ID: <018e01d72127$39a11c60$ace35520$@touchlogic.com> RYGB writes.I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. I have personally been present multiple times when Rabbi Bartfeld discusses his questions w RSM. RB often will write them up, and then review his written answer (if complex) with RSM a second time. I can't promise that broken telephone has never occurred, but the process is pretty error free. Offhand I have only found one RB psak that was different than what RSM told me personally (wearing snowshoes where there is no eruv). It is possible that RSM has changed his mind on that issue (it has been 25yrs+ since I asked the original shaylah) As for your question, I personally have discussed whipped cream from a can on Shabbos with RSM and it is true that he is matir, and is also not concerned with the shape (round, T, etc) formed in the whipped cream by the tip either. As for your question from foaming soap, yesh l'tareitz KT, CKvS, MC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Mar 24 10:18:29 2021 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:18:29 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] Correct Spelling Of Foreign Terms In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Mar 24, 2021 02:33:32 pm Message-ID: <16166243090.4D54BC1.92753@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > >> >> So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came >> to the Shabbatai Movement? >> > > Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden. > > There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei > hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for > him. So, those who wanted to believe had who[m] to rely on. (Kind > of like what happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it > actually is co[n]sidered "a thing".) > I don't remember whether I have said this before on this mailing list. If I have, I apologize for the redundancy. The Hebrew words for kimono and sushi are (I am guessing with strong confidence) "kimono" and "sushi". They are foreign terms, describing foreign things, and when we speak Hebrew, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought these terms into our language. (To be more pedantically correct, we pronounce them they way they are pronounced by the people who brought those terms into our language, to the extent that we are able to imitate them. Our ancestors, for example, could not pronounce foreign words that begin with a shva nax, like Platon and specularia and Xshawerosh, but they did the best they could.) The people who believe in Das Torah do not pronounce the word with a pharyngeal, or even a glottal, stop. They pronounce it "Das Torah". And, since Das Torah is a foreign concept, that does not exist in traditional Judaism, it should be pronounced the way it is pronounced by the people who brought the term into our language, for the same reason that we pronounce kimono "kimono", and sushi "sushi". And when we write it with the Latin alphabet, we should write the first word with one 'a', not with two, showing the same fidelity to its correct pronunciation that we do with any other foreign word. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 13:44:52 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:44:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? Message-ID: . R' Yitzchok Levine quoted the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis <<< Rav Schachter says that if one has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov. >>> I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? Do other ingredients affect this? I have always presumed that all kinds of Matza Ashira are a subset of Pas Habaa Bkisnin, excluding any and all Chometz. In other words, flour and whatever you want except water. Am I mistaken? Is the definition more complicated than that? (Note: I was surprised to find such a wide variety of recipes for egg matza. (We had a large crowd on Erev Pesach, so I bought 4 different boxes so people could sample the different flavors.) Streit's has apple cider and eggs. Aviv Egg Matzah has apple juice, egg, and sugar. Aviv Egg & Onion has an unnamed "pure fruit juice" with sugar, onion powder and egg. Manischewitz contains "pure apple or grape juice" and eggs.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Tue Mar 30 18:49:03 2021 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:49:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30/3/21 4:44 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition of matzah > ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is it > matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? According to the Rambam, 6:5, Matza is only defined as Ashira if it's made with wine, oil, honey, or milk, but if it's made with Mei Perot it's still Lechem Oni. https://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3506.htm#6 -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781 zev at sero.name "May this year and its curses end May a new year and its blessings begin" From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 08:30:05 2021 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] To Atone for All our Sins Message-ID: At the Seder, after Dayenu, we have a paragraph in which Dayenu is summarized. "He took us out of Mitzrayim... and He fed us manna... and He brought us to Har Sinai, etc etc and He built the Beis Habechira for us, to be m'chaper for our avonos." My daughter-in-law asked: Why do we need those last words? Let the list end simply, like Dayenu itself did: "... and He built the Beis Habechira for us [full stop]." Or, if some sort of editorializing is needed, let it be on a positive note: "... where we can be close to Him" or "...where He can dwell among us." But at this point in the Seder, (arguably) the very last words of Maggid, where we have finally completed our trip from Genai to Shevach, and from Yagon to Simcha, why do we sully the waters by mentioning our sins (even if the context is forgiveness)? My only guess is that these words serve as a bookend to Maggid's start ("In the beginning we were idolators"), but that doesn't help much; is this bookend really needed, or even helpful? Any other ideas? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: