[Avodah] free will

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 11:25:25PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> > Not if those small changes aren't deterministic

> That is meaningless. If one thinks the world is deterministic then the
> small changes are deterministic. You can't prove free will by assuming
> small changes are not determined. You are assuming what you want to prove

No, I am combining two ideas you are insisting on treating separately:
The effects of Chaos on a Quantum Mechanical system.

The small changes are on a quantum uncertainly level. So, Chaos will
magnify quantum effects to macroscopic level. I am not assuming quantum
uncertainty; I am taking it for granted that verifications of Bell's
Inequality have ruled out "hidden variables" and other deterministic
models. This is experimental data, not an assumption.

And thus even if quantum randomness can't exist on a macroscopic level,
and the wave function collapses into some classical state Chaos Theory
will tell us that those classical states need not resemble each other.


I wrote about Libet here in the past. See a couple of explanations at
https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol25/v25n344.shtml#03

Libet concluded that there is a 300 to 500 ms (roughly 1/3 - 1/2 sec)
delay between making a decision and consiousness. That the neurons
actually choosing to move of not fire first, then we make up explanations
to ourselves to align them with our "will". The latter just being a
fiction we tell ourselves.

I like the idea that Libet measured the time lag between making a free
will decision and realizing one has just watched themself making that
free will decision. (Which is likely why I chose that quote to put
last.) Libet was off by one level of meta.

Alternatively, REED wouldn't expect the kind of arbitrary choice like
when to press a button to involve free will. It doesn't reach the nequdas
habechirah. Only decisions that involve warring interests that push
themselves to awareness, concious choice, and bechirah chofshi.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   heights as long as he works his wings.
Author: Widen Your Tent      But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter