[Avodah] The Holy Door and Lot

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 05:58:52PM -0600, Brent Kaufman wrote:
>> "You're exagerating how different halakhah's position is than modern
>> attitudes. Or more accurately, how different the halakhah's position
>> ended up being when it was true that "darkah bekakh" and girls grew up
>> knowing it was likely they'd be raped at some point,"

> But I am not exaggerating the mitzius of this type of rape...

I was replying to Zev, so "You're" refers to him, not you. And I didn't
talk about exaggerating the metzius, but the halakhah's posiiton. The
fact that halakhah treats rape as a kind of assault actually fits current
knowledge about rapists' motivation. And doesn't the least bit imply (as
Zev tried to) that halakhah doesn't think it's a big thing. Assault is
a big thing.


>                                                             Yet your
> statement about rape being a matter of course for every girl and how they
> handled it is completely made up. No one can therefore assume that it's
> like getting a simple mugging to be taken in stride as a common thing for
> all.

You made a strawman with "a matter of course for every girl"... What I
wrote was that is was common enough to be less shocking than it is to
people in developed countries today. Often enough that girls end up not
growing up thinking their bodies were inviolate.

Slaves and serf women were routinely abused by their masters. In Rome,
waitresses, serving girls, entertainers were all considered available.
Only citizens in good standing could even be "raped" as the law defined
it.

Soldiers also were not expected to be able to restrain themselves.


This is the second time in as many conversations (the first being equating
yam with seabed) that you were overly sure that something you didn't know
was just something I must have made up. This time, though, the topic
isn't lashon haqodesh or any other aspect of Torah, but history. So I
don't want to clutter this list with the conversation. You can google
historical information.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Mussar is like oil put in water,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   eventually it will rise to the top.
Author: Widen Your Tent                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
> handled it is completely made up. No one can therefore assume that it's
> like getting a simple mugging to be taken in stride as a common thing for
> all.
> 
> I'm not sure that I even referred to Halacha in my question. I don't know
> who would in that scenario. There was no choice about giving the girls. Lot
> made that an option all by himself. Nor do I have reason to believe that
> Lot would be concerned with halachic responsa on the issue. He, single
> handedly, created the entire problem, from putting three strangers at risk,
> endangering his family and daughters, and would be responsible for all harm
> that came from the evening's events. He lacked self-awareness and sound
> judgment.
> 
> 
> -- 
> *- "When life gives you lemons, shut up and eat your lemons."*

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Mussar is like oil put in water,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   eventually it will rise to the top.
Author: Widen Your Tent                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF