[Avodah] What Will be with Simchas Torah?

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 11:37:44PM +0100, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> I suppose the reason it seems to me obvious that mishum simcha, means the
> simcha of Yom Tov, is because:
> 
> a) when the poskim say something is meshum simcha in the context of yom tov,
> they mean the mitzvah of simcha ...

This is the crux of our difference in understanding. You're using a general
rule about "mishum simchah" in texts about hilkhos YT.

I'm using the se'if's first mention of simchah, or at least "semeichin",
as the context by which I understood all further mentions of simchah.

...
> b) I have not seen (and don't expect to see) a distinction made between an
> avel doing hakafos with the lulav, and an avel doing hakafos on simchas
> Torah.  But if they have completely different bases, then that discussion
> would need to be had.

OTOH, if simchas YT were the reason for all of the minhagim of Simchas
Torah, why aren't we dancing with the Torah on all chagim? Or at least
on Zeman Matan Toraseinu?

You see hakafos with the lulav as mishum simchah to begin with? "Anah H'
hoshia na?" I think I just don't understand what you're trying to say.

...
> So I suppose it seems to me obvious that all the heterim the Rema refers to
> cannot be because of the simcha of the siyum, especially as the heterim were
> in place before the siyum was necessarily happening, historically, which
> again seems to suggest that the one does not cause the other.

Huh? The universality of finishing veZos haBerakhah on Shemini Atzeres,
Yom Tov sheini if you're in chu"l was WELL before minhagim about hakafos
with the Torah, never mind hakafos at night, giving all the men aliyos,
and then also the older boys, hakafos at night, leining at night (where
applicable)...

Again, I must not be understanding what you're trying to say.

> I do see that in fact the Aruch HaShulchan seems to support you, as in Orech
> Chaim siman 669 si'if 2 he says in the middle of the piece:  "And also we
> are accustomed that two are called up together and bless, and even though it
> is not correct in any event because of the joy of the siyum they do so ." -
> whereas I would have thought he should say the joy of Yom Tov.  So the Aruch
> HaShulchan would seem to be supporting your position.

Possibly the source of my first impression, via AhS Yomi.

> > You're assuming the Rama changes topics without telling us.
> 
> Not really.  Given that mishum simcha in the context of a Yom Tov is
> logically understood to mean simchas yom tov...

Whenever people talk about "the ground", they mean on planet earth. Pretty
solid general rule.

But if someone starts a paragraph by saying "When Neal Armstrong left
footprints on the ground of the moon..." What would you assume "the ground"
refers to in the rest of the paragraph?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 We are great, and our foibles are great,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and therefore our troubles are great --
Author: Widen Your Tent      but our consolations will also be great.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabbi AY Kook