[Avodah] Vizhnitz Rebbe Asks Chasidim To Make Kiddush This Shabbos Between 6 And 7

[Prof. Levine]

At 07:30 AM 12/21/2020,Zev Sero wrote:
>On 20/12/20 11:10 am, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>> I have never understood this custom.? The hours between 6 and 7 PM
>> differ depending upon where one is in the world, so if Mars is
>> controlling the world between 6 and 7 pm in EY, it seems to me that it
>> is not controlling the world in Brooklyn between 6 and 7 pm where I live.

>No, it does not differ, except by the modern adjustment from actual
>solar time to Railroad Time.  On any given day Noon and Midnight are at
>exactly the same time all over the world, again before adjusting for
>Railroad Time.  And *mean* noon and midnight (which according to all
>opinions are used by halacha for "molad zaken", and according to RMF's
>family kabala are also used for all other purposes) are the same all
>over the world every day, again with the same modern adjustment.

But people are not using solar time when they do not make kiddush 
between 6 and 7 PM.  They are using local time, so what do they 
accomplish by not making kiddush between 6 and 7 pm local time?


[Email #2. -micha]

Recently I wrote that I simply do not understand this custom given that
the hour between 6 and 7 PM differs depending upon where one is in the
world. I received the following comments about this.

> I once was in a group discussion with the professor of astronomy,
> who was teaching a course I was taking while at Harvard. One of the
> group asked about astrology, and how the professor could be so sure that
> it was not true . He answered that when he was young, he investigated
> astrology with the same question. But he soon realized that most of their
> astronomical claims, such as "Saturn is ascending," were factually wrong.
> They were basing their predictions not on astronomical facts, but on
> statements made in books on astrology, and to most of them the actual
> facts were irrelevant.

> I harbor my doubts that most chasidic rebbes even understand the
> implications of the fact that the earth is round and rotates and revolves.
> Most balebatim do not really understand the implications, either, so how
> would a rebbe, who never learned basic astronomy and math? As far as
> chasidim are concerned, a statement like "Mars is the astrological sign
> controlling the world" is believed just as are stories of miracles wrought
> by this or that rebbe.. They do not want to be disturbed by actual facts.

and from the same person

> In addition to your question, if they really cared about when Mars was
> ascendent, the time would change by one hour when we move the clock.
> But by Chasidim, it remains 6:00 and 7:00. Therefore, they do not really
> care about where Mars is. QED.

 From another person

> Also, I think it should be dependent on real time which is local solar
> time. I can't believe that the time when Mars is controlling the world
> has anything to do with Eastern Standard Time which was only instituted
> about one hundred and twenty years ago. I believe as recently as the
> 1890s New York was 6 minutes ahead of Philadelphia.

Many may not be aware that time of day was not standardized until the 18th Century and in some places not until the 19th Century..

 From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_time#History

    Until the latter part of the 18th century, time was normally
    determined in each town by a local sundial of a location and enabled
    a precise time to be applied.

    Such new-found precision did not overcome a different problem: the
    differences between the local times of neighbouring towns. In Britain,
    local time differed by up to 20 minutes from that of London....
    Before the arrival of the railways, journeys between the larger
    cities and towns could take many hours or days, and these differences
    could be dealt with by adjusting the hands of a watch periodically
    en route... However, this variation in local times was large enough
    to present problems for the railway schedules. ... It soon became
    apparent that even such small discrepancies in times caused confusion,
    disruption, or even accidents.

Railway time - Wikipedia
    Railway time was the standardised time arrangement first applied
    by the Great Western Railway in England in November 1840, the first
    recorded occasion when different local mean times were synchronised
    and a single standard time applied....

See the above URL for more.

BTW, in most shuls the Molad is announced using Jerusalem solar time,
not local time where one is or even local Jerusalem time. We are supposed
to know when the Molad is when we bentsch Rosh Chodesh, yet most people
think that the time announced is local time and do not really know when
the Molad is where they are living. In some shuls they also announce
the Molad in local time.


[Email #3. -micha]

Reb Zalman Alpert, who comes from an old Chabad family, sent me the
following:

They got it all wrong.

This has nothing to do with science. It's in the realm of Aggada and
kabbala which has no relation to logical scientific facts.

As if any scientist can prove the nissin in the Torah according to the
laws of science or the schemes of creation as plotted by the Ari.,Rashbi
or for that matter Chazal in midrashim.

How about the stories of Rabba bar bar Chona or the fact that Rav
Yehuda haNasi made kiddush after he was dead?! Let's write an essay
disproving that.

What does science have to do with this?

Those who are followers of the Besht, etc accept this at face value.
Will we get a scientist to come here and tell us there is no scientific
proof that tefillin shel rosh cause goyim to be scared of Jews? Sounds
like a task for a psychologist. If this were a matter of halacha, the
Rebbe would not waive it!

In this case of The Holy Rebbe of Vishnitz, we learn a serious moral
and ethical lesson. instead people go crazy about so called science.
Has anyone proved the Torah is true according to scientific facts?

You need to read Ahad HaAms essay on Moshe, although AH was not a
believer. it's a powerful essay as well as is Bialik.s essay on Halacha
and Aggada.

By the way, can the fellow at MIT prove Zimzum, sefirot Adam, kadmon,
sitra achra, etc, etc,, Bad news for all the haters here the Holy Gra
of Vilna and all greats like Rav Kook, Dessler, and Elyashev. They all
believed in doctrine of zimzum and sefirot.

Our MO community is fixated on science, which has very little to do with
many of our foundational myths. But in Judaism that's of minor concern,
as Halacha trumps all.

When the Holy Shinever rav of Galicia, son of the Divre Chaim, visited
Czarist Russia on a matter of heter Agunah, he went to Brisk. to Rav
Diskin, later of Jslm, who aided him. Then the Shinever said he was off
to Kovno to see the Kovno rav RIES ZL, the greatest posek of Russi. Rabbi
Diskin begged him not to go, because the Jews of Kovna have no concept
of chassidus, of a Rebbe and of their conduct. And The Rebbe did not go.

Same is true here. The MO community has no idea, as they say in Yiddish
vi men est dos - how to understand chasidic thought and customs.

By the way Chabad also observes this custom, and their last leader,
Rabbi MM Schneerson, not only studied science in an academic setting
but had an interest in astronomy, since his teen years, but he knew
science lechud and Yahadus lechud.

Zalman Alpert