[Avodah] The shape of the Menorah of the Temple

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 02:38:51PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> > Which RET and I revived for similar reasons in 2008 & 2009, respectively,
> > reports came from other excavations, and again in 2010 because the IE's
> > position ended up discussed on Areivim.
> 
> *Not* the IE's position.  He makes two statements about the menorah's
> structure, neither of which is about the shape of the arms.

We did indeed discuss the IE's position. You're just repeating your
side of the discussion. Not sure why you're denying a position no one
asserted here in the past decade.

> 2. (in the long IE that's published as a separate book) that the arms were
> not arranged in a flat vertical plane, as everyone else seems to think, but
> rather the six arms were arranged in a semi-circle behind and around the
> seventh one, like half of a chandelier.  This is equally consistent with
> straight arms and with curved ones.

No need to site the picture. Shemos 25:37:
   And the qadmonim said: For one neir was in the middle, and the six
   arranged one after the other in half-circle "chatzi agul".

Saying the half-circle is on the horizontal plane, rather than the shapes
of the arms, is the only way to salvage the possibility of the IE holding
the arms were straight.

It could also be read as describing your standard curved-arm image of the
menorah. I don't know the connection between the IE and the illustrator.
Unlike the Rambam, where we know the straight arms in the picture go
back to his use of a straight-edge. And the most one can argue is that
he simply didn't bother constructing parabolic arms in a schematic
diagram of the gevi'im, kaftorim ufrachim.

As can the short IE's comment (v. 32) be read both ways. He says: agulim,
arukhim, chalalim.

You assert that the IE means agul in cross-section. I think that's
presuming your conclusion. OTOH, the half-circle arrangement in the long
peirush is "chatzi agul". Picturing a full quadrant, curved arms in a
half-circle, would explain the IE's use of agul in a consistent way.
Or not.

I took away from that conversation that the IE could be read either way,
and therefore can't be used in a discussion of the shape of the arms of
the menorah altogether.

(I also noted then that while 24 kt gold is both heavy and softer than
many other metals, and my metalurgist uncle did the math and found
that straight arms would droop, the arms being hollow would avoid that
problem. Unfortunately, 10 years later, my uncle is no longer in any
shape to field any more such questions. Al taazveinu le'eis ziqnah...)



But this thread was originally about something much more haskalishe...
EVERY depiction of the menorah by people who could have seen it, or could
have met people who saw it, shows curved arms. And another example was
recently published, the third coming out of what looks like it was a
city of kohanim.

We may be forced to concude that whatever rishonim may have thought
about the appearance of the menorah in the Mishkan, in the latter part
of Bayis Sheini they were using a menorah with curved ones.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Rescue me from the desire to win every
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   argument and to always be right.
Author: Widen Your Tent                 - Rav Nassan of Breslav
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 Likutei Tefilos 94:964