[Avodah] Accounting for a Minyan, by R Gil Student

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Jun 05, 2020 at 03:08:15PM -0400, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Please see https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/06/accounting-for-a-minyan-2

Which says:
> Torah Musings
> Accounting for a Minyan
> by R. Gil Student
> Jun 5, 20
...
> The Netziv (Meishiv Davar 1:9) compares prayer to a sacrifice. The
> Gemara (Chullin 5a) says that we accept a sacrifice from a Jewish
> sinner but not from an apostate or a Shabbos violator. Similarly,
> argues the Netziv, we include a sinner in a minyan but not an apostate
> or a Shabbos violator. Rav David Tzvi Hoffmann (Melamed Le-Ho'il 1:29)
> writes that there is room to be lenient and count a Shabbos violator
> in a minyan. He suggests that Shabbos violators today have the status
> of a tinok she-nishbah, a child who was raised among gentiles, without
> a traditional Jewish education. Rav Yosef Zechariah Stern (Zeicher
> Yehosef, Orach Chaim 21:6) expands this approach slightly. The Gemara
> (Sanhedrin 26b) says that while normally someone who commits a sin is
> invalid as a witness, this does not apply if the sin is something that
> people mistakenly think is permitted. Similarly, he suggests, someone
> who lives in a community in which Shabbos violation is considered normal
> rather than a sin should still be counted for a minyan.

> However, Rav Yechiel Ya'akov Weinberg (Seridei Eish 1:7; 2:6 in old
> editions) was asked whether we can count someone intermarried for a
> minyan. He answered that someone intermarried should be excommunicated and
> therefore cannot be counted for a minyan, even though the excommunication
> cannot be done for technical reasons.

> IV. Conclusion

> I hesitate to draw any practical conclusions because these weighty
> matters need to be addressed by our leading rabbis. Preliminarily, it
> would seem, based on the above, that according to the Chakham Tzvi,
> people who repeatedly cheat the government, year after year, cannot be
> counted for a minyan (see also Minchas Yitzchak 3:65). According to the
> Seridei Eish, if the community believes that the chillul Hashem caused
> by government cheats merits excommunication, even just in theory, then
> those who commit this sin cannot be counted for a minyan. On the other
> hand, if--Heaven forbid--this sin is so common that people do not
> consider it forbidden, then people who violate it can count for a
> minyan according to the Zeicher Yehosef. Widespread sin is not
> permission but the opposite--recognition of a communal, rather than
> personal, spiritual illness. Additionally, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggeros
> Moshe, Orach Chaim 1:23) permits counting every sinner for a minyan,
> presumably aside from someone actually excommunicated. Therefore,
> according to Rav Feinstein, even government cheats can count for a
> minyan despite their theft, lies and chillul Hashem.

So, the question is, aside from RMF's heter, and assuming the community
would not put the person in cheirem or nidui...

It would seem to me that RGS assumes that RZYS's reasoning about
communally accepted sins would hold even where the sins are theft and
chilul hasheim. So, to me it raises a question:

Can we apply tinoq shenishba or tinoq shenishba-like reasoning to an
issur like theft that defies every natural system of morality?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

"Uqarasam deror ba'aretz lekhol yosheveha." - June 19, 1865.

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life isn't about finding yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Life is about creating yourself.
Author: Widen Your Tent               - George Bernard Shaw
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