[Avodah] free public transport on Shabbos/Yomtov

[Zev Sero]

On 15/6/20 3:42 pm, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
 > RZS writes:
 >
>> But in the case of the light, if 51% of the people in the room
>> are nochrim then the Jews are allowed to use it.  Since the
>> majority of passengers on pretty much any bus line in chu"l are
>> nochrim, it shouldn't matter if the line passes through some areas
>> where there are a lot of Jews. Indeed it shouldn't even matter if
>> it passes through some areas where the majority of potential
>> passengers are Jews, since they're still a minority of the total 
>> population along the line.
> That is not Rav Uzziel's analysis though.  He says as follows:
> 
> אולם אין הדברים הללו אמורים אלא בקרונות שמתנהגות על ידי לא - יהודים, 
> וברחובות שרוב תושביהם הם לא יהודים, שלפי זה עיקר מציאותן ונסיעתן של
> קרונות אלה הוא בשביל לא - יהודים, ודומה לכבש שהעמידו גוי לעצמו או
> לאחרים שכמותו, אבל במקום שרובם ישראל, שנמצאים בו גם לא - יהודים
> מועטים אסור לישראל לרכוב בהם בשבת ויום טוב, הואיל וניכר הדבר שהגוי
> מנהיג קרונות אלה בשבת בשביל ישראל, והרי זה דומה למה שפסק מרן ז"ל
> (או"ח סי' שכ"ו סעיף י"ג) עיר שישראל וא"י דרים בה ויש בה מרחץ רוחצת
> בשבת אם רוב א"י מותר לרחוץ בה במו"ש מיד ואם רוב ישראל או אפילו מחצה
> על מחצה אסור למוצ"ש עד כדי שיוחם, >
> That is:
> 
> … But these things are said when the wagons that are driven by
> non-Jews, and are in streets where the majority of dwellers are
> non-Jews, that the essence of the going out and travelling of the
> wagons are only for the non-Jews, and similar to the gangplank
> [Shabbat 122a] that the non-Jew made for himself or for others like
> him.  But in a place where the majority are Jews, that there are
> found in it also a minority of non-Jews, it is forbidden for a Jew
> to ride on them on Shabbat and Yom Tov, since the matter is obvious
> that the driver is driving these wagons on Shabbat because of the
> Jews, and it is like that which Maran rules (Orech Chaim siman 226
> si’if 13) that a city of Jews and non-Jews live in it, and there is a
> bathhouse to wash on Shabbat, if the majority are non-Jews it is
> permitted to wash in it immediately on motzei Shabbat, and if the
> majority are Jews or even half and half, it is forbidden on motzei
> Shabbat until it would be heated.
> 
> If part of the route of the bus *are in streets* which have a
> majority of Jews living in them, then he says it is forbidden.
Having seen his words I don't think you are interpreting them correctly. 
  He doesn't say that it's forbidden just because the line goes through 
some areas where the majority are Jews.  He's talking about the whole 
line, and in fact the whole area in which the line operates.  If the 
line exists to serve Jews (as it would in EY), then the fact that there 
happen also to be nochrim living along it doesn't save it (unless the 
circumstances show that it really and truly is designed primarily to 
serve that nochri minority).  But I doubt that metziut exists anywhere 
in chu"l, and I doubt R Uziel had chu"l in mind.




> And the truth is, if nobody lived on Golders Green road at all, then
> the bus would be routed differently, and would stop differently.
I doubt it.  It's still the main road, and if you want to get between 
Hendon and Hampstead you have to go through there.  Of course if it were 
an uninhabited swamp or forest the bus wouldn't stop there, since nobody 
would want to get on or off anywhere along that stretch, but if all the 
Jewish inhabitants were to vanish and only the non-Jewish ones remained 
the bus would still stop.

Further, my recollection is that very few people live on that road 
anyway; it's all shops, and the bus stops are to serve not only the Jews 
who live in the surrounding streets but also all the people who live 
elsewhere on the route and are using the shops, which means even those 
stops are servicing mostly nochrim.

But in any case I don't see how it matters for whom the stop is 
designed; the bus *actually* stops only for the first passenger who 
signalled that he wants to get off, or for the passengers who are 
waiting at the stop to board.   Even if the location had been designated 
for the benefit of all the thousands of *potential* Jewish passengers, 
the bus isn't stopping for them.  And the bus is running in the first 
place for all the passengers who use it anywhere along the line, or who 
might one day want to use it, the majority of whom are nochrim.

In fact GG is proof, since as I understand it the Jews who live in that 
area don't use the bus on Shabbos, and yet they still run, and still 
stop in the same places as they do during the week.  That shows that 
they're running for the nochrim. And if so, it should be permitted for 
an individual Jew to ride along, so long as he doesn't cause the driver 
to stop and start again for him.




-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
zev at sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper




-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
zev at sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper