[Avodah] [Areivim] Ultra-Orthodox suffering in COVID-19 pandemic due to sins of community

[Micha Berger]

Continuing the move of this thread from Areivim to Avodah, started by
R Akiva Miller.

On 7/5/20 6:19 pm, Joseph Kaplan wrote to Areivim:
> I wonder how he knows that. Did he read it in a sefer?

[MB: he = R Gershon Edenlstein, in the video RAM posted a link to alredy.]

On Fri, May 08, 2020 at 10:48:10AM -0400, Zev Sero responsed there:
> All the sefarim. See, for instance, the beginning of Rambam Hil' Taanit.  We
> are *required* to make this sort of cheshbon and consider that what happens
> to us is mipnei chata'einu, and therefore can be averted by teshuvah, rather
> than something that just happened and over which we are powerless.

To which I added:
> And, as in every iteration, I would point out that yefashpeish / yemashmeish
> bema'asav does NOT imply causality.

And Zev on Areivim Sun, 10 May 2020 16:47:50 EDT:
> It explicitly does.

> "That when a trouble comes and they cry out over it and make a noise, 
> all will know that it became bad for them because of their bad deeds, as 
> it is written, "Your sins brought these" to you, and this is what will 
> cause them to remove the trouble from upon them. But if they do not cry 
> out and do not make a noise, but say "this thing happened to us because 
> it is the nature of the world, and this trouble happened by 
> coincidence", this is a cruel path, and causes them to stick to their 
> bad deeds, and will add to the trouble and to other troubles."

> That explicitly speaks of direct causality.

And now something I want to add here:

Zev are quoting Rambam, Hil Taanis 1:2-3, which is not what I quoted.
Different "it".

But to get to the point, different "it" in that you are talking about
whether or not causality is involved. Yes, yeish din veyeish Dayan.
But the "it" of the phrase I quoted was response, and it says nothing
about *finding* cause, the topic at hand. The response to suffering is
about taking lesson, not finding cause.

(As for the Rambam, could you really picture the Rambam telling us
to find Hashem's Motive for our issurim, that such a thing is even
knowable? He may even deny that "Hashem's Motive" is a meaningful
concept.)

Batei Hillel and Shammai, or maybe the gemara commenting on their
conclusion (Eiruvin 13b) give us this response as a way to live with
noach lo le'adam shelo nivra. and not any specific time of yissurin.

And in the version of Rav or R' Chisda (Berakhos 7b, not the one I was
referring to, because no "yemashmeish") where it is about a person and
their sins it could still at the end of everything have been yissurin
shel ahavah.

But again, even in the Rambam, the response to suffering is to look for
what to do teshuvah about. Not to think you do or can find a cause. The
response is not about causality.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 33rd day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Hod sheb'Hod: LAG B'OMER - What is total
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF             submission to truth, and what results?