From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 2 13:37:43 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: >From today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? A. The Steipler Gaon (Orchos Rabbeinu 2:57) writes that one who studies Gemara or any other subject cannot make a siyum unless one understood the subject matter. The learning need not be with great depth. It is enough that one learns the p?shat (simple understanding). Many poskim hold that this is true even if one did not study the Gemara with Rashi or any other commentary. Sefer Ohr L?Tzion (3:12, ha?arah 1) writes that even if one might have missed a few lines here or there, they can still make a siyum. Similarly, he writes that although when one learns Torah one must vocalize every word (or listen to each word from a chavrusa), but if one occasionally learned by reading the words in one?s mind, one may still make a siyum. One can make a siyum even if one learns a short Masechta such as Tamid or Horiyos, and even if it was studied out of order. Rav Elyashiv, zt?l (Doleh Umashkeh, p. 318:3) held that one person must learn the entire Masechta and it cannot be divided up among a group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sat Jan 4 18:20:44 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: That?s a question which I have always wondered about. The way I see it is the same as taking a test and either passing or failing. If you and I take a test and you get 100 and I get a 60 (assuming that is the passing grade), then I have at least passed. Therefore, I see the same as learning. We both can have learned B?rochos and you know it by heart with all of the m?forshim, and I have learned it enough to get a passing grade so therefore I feel I would have the right to make a siyyum. However, I would look upon your siyyum as more noteworthy (however you wish to interpret that). From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 5 10:41:22 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: <0A849E37-7BD7-45AA-9C73-83FC0FE25429@cox.net> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry is Scripture's way of conveying the conviction that the formative age in Israel's history was not a series of haphazard incidents but the fulfillment of God's grand design??" Avraham lived for 175 years Yitzchok for 180 years Ya'akov for 147years. These numbers form an ordered and symmet- rical series: 7 x 5 squared = 175 (Abraham) 5 x 6 squared = 180 (Isaac) 3 x 7 squared = 147 (Jacob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Tue Jan 7 06:53:14 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:53:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] downloads available.. Message-ID: <134f01d5c56a$313b9010$93b2b030$@touchlogic.com> A coffee drinker's guide to Shabbos micro ground coffee / drip coffee / French press / using timer OUD creamer. do you have to wait 6 hrs till using.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/62kukx9q3ybjs4f/A%20coffee%20drinker%27s%20guide%2 0to%20Shabbos.docx?dl=0 2500 quick English psakim from R Shlomo Miller shlita https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 7 14:12:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? Message-ID: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> From a post: On the one hand, a frustrating element of arbitrariness surrounds umbrella use on Shabbos. Why do we act strictly on this issue, which is hotly debated among authorities, while acting leniently on other disputed issues? God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident. On the other hand, like an individual, a community is defined in part by its past. We cannot change how we got to where we are, our communal evolution through history. As halakhah evolves--within boundaries, of course--we cannot turn back the clock without destabilizing the system. Me: ?God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident.? I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening in ch?ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation) ? Your thoughts? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 04:12:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> Message-ID: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 10:12:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > "God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical > accident." I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories > told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening > in ch"ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at > least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation)? Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a factor in choosing which. After all, we allow for G-d's Will including 49 ways letamei and 49 ways letaheir, and letting humans decide which way of approaching the Truth is necessary for the situation we're in. What I am proposing is more limited than Historical School. With no parallel to some travesty like assigning personal or political motives to a ruling. I am saying that the strengths and weaknesses of how the masses are relating to halakhah itself are historical realities halakhah must account for. Also, to be complete although the issue isn't pragmatic any more -- gezeiros. If you do not believe that Chazal saw where practice *happened to* need shoring up at their moment in time, the decision to make a gezeira to avoid one risk and not a different one seems kind of arbitary at times. I have to believe they were responding to which mistakes were actually being made, or at least mistaken attitudes gaining currnecy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:03:38 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200108200338.GA3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 7:12am EST I replied to RJR: > Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu > va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a > factor in choosing which. This reminds me of another question RJR (was it RJR or is my memory playing tricks?) asked years ago about Goedel's Theorem. Halakhah is immune from Goedel's Theorem: Halakhah on the Divrei Elokim Chaim / dialectic level allows for Eilu veEilu. THere is no Law of Contradiciton, A and not-A can both be Torah, so Goedel's proof fails. Halakhah lemaaseh is not a closed formal system, because -- as I am arguing in this thread -- history matters. It's not a clean room exercise detatched from the realia the poseiq and sho'el/alim are living in. More info from the outside can influence the answer. It's not the kind of system math is, so Goedel's proof fails here too. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:10:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200108201057.GB3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 07:14:21AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: >> We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them >> as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, >> it should be done by example. > Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" > (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish > human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner > consistent with the will of HKB"H... In R' Wolbe's essay titled "Frumkeit" (Alei Shur vol II, available at ), he quotes the Alter of Slabodka as saying "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." The frum person is the one who makes sure to have Shabbos guests each week, but whose guests end up feeling much like his tefillin -- an object with which he did a mitzvah. A person acting out of frumkeit doesn't love to love, he loves in order to be a holier person. And ironically, he thereby fails -- because he never develops that Image of the Holy One he was created to become. The person who acts from self-interest, even from the interest of ascending closer to G-d, will not reach Him. (Taken from my blog post at .) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Thus excellence is not an event, Author: Widen Your Tent but a habit. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aristotle From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 9 11:45:06 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 19:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? Message-ID: >From today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? A. If a person owns their home, they are obligated to put mezuzos on the door as soon as they occupy the home (see Gilyon Maharsha YD 286:22). At what point is one considered an occupant? If one moves furniture and other belongings into a home, but has not actually started living in the house, there is a dispute between the poskim whether a mezuzah is required. The Chovas Hadar (13, footnote 10) assumes there is an obligation, while Rabbi Aharon Felder, in Oholei Yeshurun (page 6, fn 69) quotes other poskim who say the mitzvah begins only when one resides in the home. Shulchan Aruch (YD 236:22) rules that if one rents a house or apartment in the Diaspora, the requirement to put up mezuzos begins after 30 days have elapsed ? on the 31st day (the day of the move counts as day one, even if it is only a partial day.) The Derech Chaim disagrees and maintains that if the lease is for more than 30 days, the obligation to post mezuzos begins immediately. Though most poskim agree with the Shulchan Aruch that there is no obligation to post a mezuzah within 30 days under all circumstances, nonetheless the Magen Avrohom suggests that it is permissible to put a mezuzah on the wall during the first thirty days and recite a bracha. By doing so, the opinion of the Derech Chaim will be covered. The Nachalas Tzvi (286:22) objects to the suggestion of the Magen Avrohom and maintains that the bracha cannot be recited before the mitzvah is obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein (YD 1:179) offers a solution that covers all bases. He recommends putting up the mezuzos (to satisfy the opinion of the Derech Chaim) without a bracha (in deference to the Nachalas Tzvi). After 30 days the mezuzos should be removed, or at least slightly pushed, and then a bracha is required. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 10 06:22:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Askara In-Reply-To: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> References: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200110142208.GA29555@aishdas.org> Talmudology is a blog by R Jeremy Brown on science and gemara, following the daf yomi. (His wife is the known author on Torah topics, Dr Erica Brown.) In this installment, for Berakhos 8a (tomorrow's daf) http://www.talmudology.com/jeremybrownmdgmailcom/2020/1/8/berachot-8a-what-is-askera-and-why-does-it-kill-you or http://bit.ly/36EBBHy RJB rules out the usual translation of "askara" as "croup", since even in their day it wasn't likely to be fatal. Instead, he finds that diphtheria, epiglottitis and quincy fit the gemara's description and suggests it was one of those. Adding another suggestion we're discussed here during the omer in years past: R Sheira Gaon (She'iltos 1:1) says "askara" refers to the sicarii, literally: daggers, but the name was given to the dagger-bearing class of Roman soldiers. His context is the death of R' Aqiva's students by askara; he says they died at the Romans' hands. But, to quote Koren's translation of the gemara, minus the word "croup": [Askara] is like a thorn entangled in a wool fleece, which, when pulled out backwards, tears the wool. Some say that [askara] is like ropes at the entrance to the esophagus, which would be nearly impossible to insert and excruciating to remove. I cannot believe R' Sherira Gaon didn't have an answer for the description in this gemara. Maybe askara is an actual illness that in that one story was being used euphemistically? Or maybe the Romans took to shechting or garroting their victims, r"l? :-)BBii! -Micha PS: Below is a very helpful signature quote, for those of us who spend a lot of time "talking" about things online. -- Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every http://www.aishdas.org/asp argument and to always be right. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Nassan of Breslav - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Likutei Tefilos 94:964 From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 05:52:08 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: > Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." < One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 14 08:32:32 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Adopting Outside the Community Message-ID: <20200114163231.GA17990@aishdas.org> In , or https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/politics-current-affairs/2020/01/why-orthodox-jews-have-been-hesitant-to-adopt-outside-their-community-and-why-they-shouldnt-be/ Malka Groden ("a domestic-adoption advocate in the American Jewish community") writes and article titled: Why Orthodox Jews Have Been Hesitant to Adopt Outside Their Community, and Why They Shouldn't Be I am posting to Avodah because I am including her summaries of points made by RMMS (about the duty to raise nitzotzos, including those in non-Jews) and by RYBS (from Family Redeemed about natural vs covenantal parenthood). And afterwood, the thoughts I had on the subject of adopting non-Jews, developing since the days when we did. ... There is, however, one group of American Jews who are indeed marrying young, having children, and building families deeply connected to Jewish communal infrastructure through synagogues, schools, and a broad range of support organizations. That group comprises both the Charedim and the [M]odern Orthodox... In recent decades, indeed, the Orthodox world has become adept at devising arrangements in support of individuals and families going through life's most significant challenges: medical crises, infertility, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, and more. The organization In Shifra's Arms, for example, supports, emotionally, practically, and financially, Jewish women facing unplanned pregnancies; for another example, the Jewish Children's Adoption Network has placed thousands of Jewish babies with special needs in Jewish homes nationwide. But there's the rub: float within Orthodox precincts any suggestion of becoming involved with the issue of foster care and adoption in the larger society, and the initial response will likely be, "But those children aren't Jewish. Why is this a Jewish cause?" ... [The Lubavitcher] Rebbe taught that Jews are tasked with revealing not only their own "divine spark" but also the divine spark that resides within each human being, Jew and non-Jew alike. Thus, among Chabad's initiatives was a campaign to include, at the start of each day in the nation's public schools, a moment of silence during which all children would have an opportunity to contemplate their own purpose and responsibilities. Similarly, the Rebbe pushed for criminal-justice reform--stressing that those incarcerated must be given the chance for rehabilitation so that they too can return to their God-given mission in life--at a time when this issue did not command the broad consensus it enjoys today. Both of these projects, geared simultaneously toward Jews and the broader community, reflected the Rebbe's firmly activist view of the essential worth of each human being. With a proper moral foundation and education, he held, every individual, however highly or humbly situated, has the potential to grow and reveal his or her own divine spark. It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home. Meanwhile, Rabbi Soloveitchik, coming at the issue from his own direction, devoted an entire volume of essays, Family Redeemed, to the theme of family relationships. In one of these essays, he describes two forms of parenthood. The first form, "natural parenthood," is represented by Adam and Eve. The motherhood of Eve is instinctual and all-consuming; her entire being is involved, through the nine months of pregnancy and onward through the physical and biological demands of childbirth and child rearing. For Adam, by contrast, fathering a child makes no biological claims at all; after the child's birth, he is free to act exactly as he did before. With Abraham and Sarah, a new form--"covenantal" or "redeemed" parenthood--is revealed. For the first time, fatherhood demands something of men: Abraham must serve as an educator, molding his children and the next generation. In this mission, Sarah, the redeemed mother, joins him as partner and essential link in the transmission of the covenant. Separate from the biological demands made on her as a mother, motherhood takes on a larger ethical meaning to which she in turn makes a free commitment. At the start of the Jewish people's history, God confers on the first foremother and forefather the chance to move beyond the innate ties of biology and assume a trans-generational mission. ... By learning from the remarkable work done by American Christians, and by actualizing the core Jewish mission through the redemptive power of the Jewish family, American Jews can begin to help bring healing to a generation of children wounded and forgotten. I am not a huge fan of focusing on the need for homes as a motive for adoption. I am afraid of too many children being taken on as chessed projects rather than letting a normal parent-child relationship develop. But let me focus on Avodah material. If someone wants to adopt in order to continue their mimetic line, (along with the joys and the aggravations of parenting -- kind of like gilu bir'adah) the halakhos are simpler and cleaner when adopting a non-Jewish child. The giyur will be al daas beis din, and the parents are apitrupusei beis din. There is actually a halachically recognized tie between parents and adopted child, and the chinukh you provide is a chiyuv. (Not the chiyuv of "veshinantam levanekha", but still, a chiyuv.) That said, I still think aniyei irekha qodmin -- as long as there are Jewish children to be found, in today's climate of Open Adoption the halachic issues are generally resolvable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair: http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while, Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:32:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) Message-ID: My comment on a hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) shiur: imho an example of trying to codify something that is primarily mimetic. 100 shiurim can't take the place of role models who demonstrate how to know when it will be accepted and how time and place define when to dig in your heels on what issues. Also how you evaluate the impact on the individual vs. the community. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:35:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:35:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hedgehog? Message-ID: On R' Gil Perl's hedgehog piece https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ : I would agree that if MO's goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys' rabbeim's question as to why I just didn't put on a black hat ,is that I just don't think it's what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 20th century) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t613k at aol.com Tue Jan 14 22:42:12 2020 From: t613k at aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> In Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1 dated 1/4/2020? >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinksthat the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... <>>> This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against Orthodox Jews for 200 years.? But this accusation is simply not true.? We Orthodox Jews should not internalize the false image that our enemies have of us.? This belief that our enemies are right about us reflects a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.? Since we are all human beings, of course we all have our faults.? But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <>? In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim? --Toby Katzt613k at aol.com ============= ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 15 05:39:53 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <> --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com I would simply say community should be judged by the following ???- Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying.-Ralph Waldo Emerson Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 06:23:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] =?iso-8859-1?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Adam=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200115142357.GA30570@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 06:42:12AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote: >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, >> thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... > > This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against > Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against > Orthodox Jews for 200 years... And the Semag made against us 700 yearts ago, in asei #74. In explaining why, lemaaseh, one does have to return an aveidas aku"m, he writes , tr. mine so see it in the original at the link: I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain and the rest of Goliyos Edom that now that the exile has gone on far too long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of the world and grab onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not commit sin, do not speak lies, and one won't find a false tongue in their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them, the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People] for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesn't plant a kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One, blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves with trickery, who will attach to them? And R Breuer, 69 years ago, wrote "`Glatt Kosher -- Glatt Yoshor" because he felt a need to remind people that the latter is more important than the former (translation via RYL). To give just the closing: We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for "Glatt Kosher" with an equally intensive one for "Glatt Yoshor." This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13): "The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." As for the wonderful things our community does, a couple of theories: While my negative stereotype is truer than RnTK will admit to herself, it is still just a generalization. The number of people running and participating in those gema"chs, bikur cholim, the chevrah.... they don't total anywhere near half of us. Second, there is just being a religious community. Compare ourselves to another Middle or Upper-Middle class religious community. Look at chessed among actual aku"m like the Mormons. And yet we have the Emes! And we have a system that shapes our lives to inclucate that Emes, from what we eat to how we put on our shoes! Third, bein adam lachaveiro also has a BALM aspect, and we do see signs that it is that aspect that drives much of the chessed. Like the numerous articles by BT, singles, people who rely on Shabbos hospitality, who so often leave feeling like they served as an esrog, a cheftza shel mitzvah. The Alter of Slabodka says something related, about the lishmah of BALC (found quoted in Alei Shur vol II, tr. mine): "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning, http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to Author: Widen Your Tent mend." - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Jan 15 05:56:18 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira Message-ID: <006801d5cbab$90687a70$b1396f50$@touchlogic.com> https://lehavin.org/ At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both topics and keyword searches From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Jan 15 11:27:46 2020 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: <6757A82F-25CA-46D9-A1F0-1C001AA62A5B@tenzerlunin.com> I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh, brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore BALC in the face of BALM. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:56 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: R'n TK writes: "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?" R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Indeed, there is the rub. We learn one thing, but how much do we practice? Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters. An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring home to the shabbos table, and what-not. It was a terrific program. (I have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome -- see https://projectderech.org/). My kids, B"H, are still positively effected by that program. I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15 years ago or so (IIRC) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:55:44 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha Message-ID: R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted? But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha will NOT be accepted? Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until that standard is met the duty remains. We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands of sheep, stole this one sheep etc. The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous. In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even though they did not seek his forgiveness? as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct. Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all circumstances to be a Chassid? Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch. One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national history. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 19:00:45 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are > shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many > questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon > harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? Other illustrations: 1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha. And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff. This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus. 3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by self-identifying as "frum". Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And which one isn't given kibudim in shul? 3- Newspaper headlines. Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that impression, although most boys do. And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust. So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know I was the exception. 4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there. And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro. Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are middos seen as an end in themselves? 5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!" That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut the line in and of itself, doesn't work. And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe http://www.aishdas.org/asp you can be certain of improving, Author: Widen Your Tent and that's your own self. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aldous Huxley From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 18:40:35 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tochachah until when? Message-ID: <20200116024035.GA7698@aishdas.org> So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6) who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9 . I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else. So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo? How do these two issues shtim together? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 17 09:42:58 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro In-Reply-To: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> References: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200117174258.GA9251@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: >> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are >> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many >> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon >> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? > Other illustrations: Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was triggered. The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael". There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos) which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment): Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t) See a daf image at https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_36079_73.pdf or http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2864&size=2 It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions, nor even Sefaria (see "No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")! :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 18 16:53:29 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo Message-ID: <20200119005329.GA12632@aishdas.org> Times of Israel or https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-at-shiloh-archaeologist-finds-artifacts-hinting-at-biblical-tabernacle/ As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including in full): Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh Jan. 17 2020 According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio, 33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.) https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/742731340&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true -micha From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 19 12:53:49 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question Message-ID: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 19 08:26:56 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? Message-ID: Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father, and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says -- that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These [...] From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 19 22:20:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? _______________________________________________ IMHO 1. Make sure the ba'al kore gets proper medical treatment 2. clean up any mess 3. if the ba'al kore can't continue, get a substitute Now if the oleh is the one bleeding, it's probably a bigger issue. See S"A O"C 140 KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Jan 20 04:48:53 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200120124853.GB13148@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 03:53:49PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > A colleague asked me the following question and I had > no answer. > If the ba'al kore is reading the Torah and either has a > nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer > to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? RJR focused on the leining. But I saw the question as being more about the kashrus of the Torah with the blood on it. Ink spills, which are actually black, do not invalidate a sefer Torah -- as long as the letters remain intact. Now that I think of it, although I do not remember this case in the AhS -- maybe also as long as the ink itself doesn't look like an inserted letter? Blood that is red or brown could invalidate a letter too. Or so I am deducing from the case of black letters that had gold painted on top of them (eg in an attempt to glorify Hashem's name) -- the gold has to be removed. So it seems you have to see the black ink. But I do not think any of my speculation about added letters would apply. And in any case, it should be cleaned up simply out of respect for the Torah. ---- I also had thoughts about tum'ah. And so I wrote the below. But I don't think the blood in either scenario (nose bleed or paper cut) is tamei even to begin with. Struck me after I wrote it, in comparison to dam niddah. Still, I invested time, and there are things in it that might inform, so I didn't delete. There is a derabbanan to treat a seifer Torah as if it were tamei. This was to prevent a practice that became commonplace, that of storing all the holy things together. But rodents would come to eat the terumah, and naw on any scrolls nearby. But once they told the masses that the seifer Torah is not only tamei, but can be metamai one's hands too much for handling terumah, that ended. However, a seifer Torah cannot really become tamei. All of this is about treating it as though tamei. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, http://www.aishdas.org/asp if only because it offers us the opportunity of Author: Widen Your Tent self-fulfilling prophecy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Arthur C. Clarke From rabbiknopf at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:12:57 2020 From: rabbiknopf at yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> I've read this recent discussion with great interest. Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious community. I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's?What You Don?t Know About the Ultra-Orthodox - Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other articles:?Values and Religiosity?and?Charitable Giving Among Britain's Jews. And see also this page from?The Jewish Mind. With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a genuine problem (and therefore a challenge). I think it is true that fewer sheilos are asked in bein adam lechavero. I agree that both the occurrence and the communal reaction to scandals in bein adam lechavero are telling and disconcerting.? As Rabbi Berger acknowledges, there are different approaches within our mesorah in understanding the place of bein adam lechavero. Which ever approach one takes, there is room for much more serious thought as to how to reduce the gap between values and communal practice. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:09 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:13:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority Message-ID: A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a)remains silent or (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth 1. What percentage of people would take each course? (orthodox vs. non? 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:48:14 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero In-Reply-To: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200128214814.GD29555@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote: > Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the > frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't > simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious > community. > > I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About > the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other > articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's > Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind. > > With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a > genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)... I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest. What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox is at or https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/what-you-dont-know-about-the-ultra-orthodox/ From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:45:28 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128214528.GC29555@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until > that standard is met the duty remains. > > We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to > many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's > the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds > are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts > to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to > succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which > Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal). So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without the help of finding sources. The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the pasuq: Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha velo savo alav cheit. (The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for how you perceive what they did to you.) However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So, the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them into meizidim means you can't do it. But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how. That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty, even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or someone who hears the story will be influenced. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 14:20:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder) only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so we're talking about 1.8 oz. The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk. HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so. Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot. Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with te'imah. Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which "fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is. The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:35:55 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128213555.GA29555@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote: >> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." > One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and > loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. To me shilush refers to the human condition. When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face. Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.) The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3. Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz. Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give. The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others. The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above. Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:53:07 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128215307.GE29555@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony > that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or > (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth ... > 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif they did, the testimony is void? Li nir'eh: We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma. And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 29 11:53:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> References: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200129195327.GD10165@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com When we discussed this topic a decade ago (10-Oct-2009), R/Dr Prof Levine pointed us to a copy he kept of an article by R/Dr Ari Zivotofsky at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf Tir'u baTov! -Micha From sholom at aishdas.org Sun Feb 2 11:43:54 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Which parsha...? Message-ID: <1580762914542.2f7d92c33c16fe9c@aishdas.org> Someone in shul mused to me that parshas Ve'eria sure had a whole lot of mentions of H's name, and was wondering if that parsha had more mentions than any other parsha. I told him: I don't know, but I have some ideas on who/where to ask! Thoughts? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 4 19:14:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 03:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? Message-ID: In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 5 08:04:04 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ce3160-8d3b-c3a9-9e5d-e781c8bd03c7@sero.name> On 4/2/20 10:14 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R?Gil Student wrote about R?C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? According to the Rosh, at least, the minhag of most (nowadays all) Chu"l communities saying tal umatar as if they were in Iraq is mistaken, and he tried his best to change it in Spain, but faced such massive opposition that he gave up and accepted the status quo. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 5 09:57:59 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE Message-ID: This morning while shopping I noted that many types of Arnold's bread now bear on OU DE instead of OU Pareve. The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Q. Is one permitted to bake DE (Dairy Equipment) bread? For example, may one bake bread on a baking pan that was previously used to bake cheese danishes? A. (The OU recently focused on this issue, as a major bread manufacturer certified by the OU requested authorization to produce OU-DE certified bread. Click here to read Rabbi Genack?s extensive teshuva on this topic.) The Pischei Teshuva (YD 97:5) rules that bread baked on dairy equipment may be consumed. He reasons that as follows: Chazal (Pesachim 46a) forbade eating dairy bread as a gezaira (a prohibitive measure), lest one forgets the dairy status of the bread and consumes it with meat. This concern is valid when the bread contains actual dairy ingredients. However, when the bread is baked on dairy equipment, the bread is technically pareve according to the Rama, but as a chumra (an extra stringency), the bread may not be eaten with meat. Bidi?eved (after the fact), the Rama agrees that DE bread mixed with meat may be consumed. The possibility that one might not remember the status of DE bread is much less of a concern than for bread that contains actual dairy, and therefore there is no restriction on consuming DE bread. This reasoning is valid according to the Rama (95:2) who allows DE items mixed with meat bidi?eved. However, the Shach (quoted in a previous Halacha Yomis) rules that pareve items baked or roasted on dairy equipment are fully dairy and may not be consumed with meat even bidi?eved. Accordingly, the Shach would forbid all consumption of DE bread. As previously noted, many poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan (95:12), are not in agreement with the Shach. We will now address the second question about bread baked on a cheese danish pan. Are pans used to bake cheese danish treated as dairy? Interestingly, this depends on how the danish was prepared. If the cheese remained inside the dough, the pan would not have the status of actual dairy, and bread baked on the pan can be eaten with pareve or dairy foods. However, if the cheese leaked out of the danish onto the pan, the Shach would consider the pan to be actual dairy even bidi?eved, and bread baked subsequently would be forbidden. ___________________________________________ Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:41:50 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim Message-ID: Questions from (another) guy in my shul: On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is trying to annul or alleviate. (And either the P"Y, or R Rosner, suggest that perhaps this is why when a crisis is facing the community, we engage in tefilla and/or recitation of tehillim). (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the chiddush in that? Do I need R Eazar to tell me that? Or, perhaps R Elazar is saying: you can do all the ma'asim tovim you want, but without tefilla, it's not going to help? But I digress....) That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. Is there any intersection of thought -- is there any influence or stira -- of R Elazar's statements to this order of words? And why does R Elazar seemingly ignore teshuva? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:43:55 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good place to ask ;-) Thoughts, anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 5 18:59:15 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 02:59:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E809B88-1E18-4EBE-84F2-BA7F5BC94544@Segalco.com> Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. -/?????????? Some context is important. As I understand it for many years the OU Used the DE designation and then changed policy because they thought it was too confusing. This led to a time Where they fielded many questions (maybe unofficially? )about what the D really meant and many people used products as if they were DE. Now apparently they?ve gone back to issuing the DE. I think a consumer awareness campaign would be worthwhile I personally prefer having the DE designation available so that people don?t just decide on their own based on the ingredients. Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:08:01 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206200801.GA20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:43:55AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for > us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did > H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good > place to ask ;-) Well, if you don't take Bereishis 1 as history, or you believe in Omphalism ("the universe was created old, as though it all happened" -- RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements. The universe's size also is an effect of the kind of Inflation and Big Bang we had, or H' made a universe as thought we had. The same thing that set up many other things in physics, and is subject to our laws of physics. Which in turn would mean that to have the physics we do, we would need a universe of a certain size. (Or a universe that was obviously created in a "puff" of neis.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:24:09 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206202409.GB20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:41:50AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, > and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's > talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers > that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is > trying to annul or alleviate... Which fits the context; the gemara is talking about Moshe davening to come to EY. > (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with > tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the > chiddush in that? ... So the Penei Yeoshua tell you to look in the Maharsha and the Mahari Pinto, who ask just your question -- of course T + MT > T. And also, why go to Moshe who excelled at everything, not the clearest maqor for this kind of comparison. The PY only gives his own answer -- obviously the sekhar of MT is greater, as they involve many mitzvos. Even if tefillah is deOraisa, which he notes is unclear. Rather, it is specifically WRT getting out of a gezeira ra'ah. Barukh shekivanta! My reaction: We're talking about Moshe level davening, and it's still not enough without maasim tovim?! The Ben Yehoyada (ad loc) says that the intent is Avos 5:21, "kol hamzakeh es harabim, tekhus harabim talui bo". So the gemara is saying that the tefillah of someone with maasim tovim is greater than the maasim tovim in and of their own zekhuyos. > That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana > Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. And the next line in the gemara is R Elazar saying that taanis is greater than tzedaqah -- because it is done with his body, and tzedaqah is done with his money. Remember the Machzorim that have the words tzom, qol, mamon over teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, and they're all there. Tzom is a maaseh associated with teshuvah. BUT... The next line after that, also R Elazar, says that tefillah is greater that qorbanos. If the gemara were working with teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, this quote wouldn't be here, it breaks the symbolism. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:33:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206203333.GC20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 03:14:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue > I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue > since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were > all holy) There are at least two ways you can ascribe importance to mimetic precedent, whether minhag or accepted pesaq, or any other of the looser usages of the word "minhag": 1- "Im lo neviim heim benei neviim heim" or "she'reis Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" mean that there is siyata diShmaya involved in what Jews end up doing. And thus Retzon haBorei blesses such practices. (In some way that doesn't violate lo bashamayim hi. Just as a poseiq's siyata diShmaya doesn't.) 2- The lack of rabbinic objection shows that generations of rabbanim found textual support for the practice. Which would rule out practices where we have a record of rabbinic protests. I brought up #2 in the early days of Avodah, when R/Dr Meir Shinnar used a mimetic argument to prove that sei'ar be'ishah ervah is das Yehudis and changes with the fashion. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I want to do it." - is weak. Author: Widen Your Tent "I am doing it." - that is the right way. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 05:00:41 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] New Haggada Available Message-ID: A new edition is now available of my "Achieving Immortality - A Haggada for Re-Experiencing the Exodus". My main goal in this Haggada is to avoid anything that would distract us from "seeing ourselves as if we left Egypt ourselves." For example, the peirushim are incorporated into the translation and instructions, rather than being relegated to the bottom of the page. Extensive footnotes for supplementary material are accessible on the bottom of each page, but for the seder itself they are in the back of the book, to be less distracting. It is available online at Lulu.com, where anyone can find it by searching for the title and/or my name. It is available in three bindings: hardcover, paperback, and a coil-bound version (which is my family's favorite because it lies flat with no effort, so yet another distraction is avoided). All three have the exact same 200-page interior. SPECIAL HALF-PRICE pricing for Avodah readers is available if you use these links: Softcover $5.97 at https://tinyurl.com/SoftcoverHaggada Coilbound $7.47 at https://tinyurl.com/CoilboundHaggada Hardcover $12.97 at https://tinyurl.com/HardcoverHaggada (plus tax and shipping, obviously) You can often get it even cheaper! Lulu often (but usually only from Monday to Thursday) offers coupon codes that you can use when you check out and pay. You can go to Lulu.com and look for the popup notice, or you can try the frequently-offered codes LULU10 (for 10% off) or ONEFIVE (for 15% off). If you'd like to see a sample of this Haggada, to better judge how much my style fits yours, you can download a 25-page sample at https://www.dropbox.com/s/eizebhfa5qtfpwo/Haggada%202020%20Excerpts.pdf?dl=0 or https://tinyurl.com/v27cwtt Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 17:41:39 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:41:39 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Joel Rich asked Message-ID: < BL0PR02MB37454F2E5D8D2B1D2559773EBF020 at BL0PR02MB3745.namprd02.prod.outlook.com > Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hankman at bell.net Thu Feb 6 21:01:17 2020 From: hankman at bell.net (hank) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 00:01:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: <20200207050117.JFSZ16482.mtlspm02.bell.net@[IPv6:::ffff:192.168.2.56]> RMB wrote: ?RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements.? That is plausible for stars within our galaxy, but not for the billions of stars in billions of galaxies far outside the milkyway galaxy. Those heavy elements could never reach us in this galaxy. Should we postulate intelligent beings in each of those distant galaxies with their own relationship to G-d for whom their stars supply heavy elements to? Kol tuv, Chaim Manaster Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Fri Feb 7 07:43:50 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/20 8:41 pm, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > > But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the > repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - > one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. 1. As I understand it he succeeded, within his area of influence, and chazarat hashatz disappeared for several centuries, until at least the Radvaz's times. (Though his takana was only for Shacharit/Musaf on Shabbat, and for Mincha only if it was getting late.) 2. More importantly it's not an example of this phenomenon because it was *not* an incorrect minhag. Not even the Rambam claimed it was incorrect. The Rambam simply thought a new problem had arisen, which required a new takanah invoking eit laasot to override this correct minhag. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From meirabi at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 17:37:26 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:37:26 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - Talking During Tefillah, That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Zev Message-ID: suggested that RaMBaM, at least within his area of influence, succeeded in cancelling the Chazoras HaShaTz, and we assume also thereby reduced the talking during Tefillah. However, during the Radvaz's times, Ch HaShaTz was reintroduced which only reinforces the notion that Mistaken Minhagim, even if they can be temporarily abated, cannot be stopped Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinlbrody at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 21:49:16 2020 From: martinlbrody at gmail.com (Martin Brody) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:49:16 -0800 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minchagim.... Message-ID: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Cheers, Martin Brody "Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazze Meir G. Rabi From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Tue Feb 11 01:17:50 2020 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:17:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 10, 2020 02:03:22 pm Message-ID: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Talking during prayer is not a minhag. It is a hanhagah (Hebrew, like every language, has nuanced near-synonyms in matters of importance to its speakers). Jews do not talk during prayer thinking "this is how Jews should conduct themselves", or even "this is how Jews conduct themselves", and those cognitions are part of the definition of the word "minhag". The original poster asked for mistaken minhagim, which originated in the hamon `am, and which were subsequently tolerated by the scholarly class. Talking during prayer is not a mistaken minhag, because it is not a minhag at all. A minhag that satisfies the original poster's question -- as has already been pointed out by another contributor to this mailing list -- is praying for rain, not when you need rain, but when the people of Iraq need rain. Other minhagim that satisfy the original poster's question are wearing costumes on Purim, or not cutting a boy's hair till he is three years old. And there are numerous other idolatrous practices and superstitions that are found among Jews, like tugging your ear after you sneeze, or not walking over a baby, and if you do walk over a baby, then walking backwards over the baby to undo the walking forwards. If you read classic Yiddish literature, you will learn many minhagim regarding sickness which clearly belong to the category of "halloxesh `al hammakkah" but which were nearly universal among the Jews depicted in that literature, and which are not condemned by the Yiddish-speaking scholarly class even now. The practice of not eating kitniyyoth (deliberately left untranslated) on Passover also originated in the hamon `am, and was later ratified, and even codified, by the scholarly class, but I would abolish it if I could, because, inter alia, it makes it more expensive to observe Passover, and God cares about the property of His people. There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An example of this category is the practice of earning a living from teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. An even more odious example is the practice of "kollel", which involves paying people, not even to teach Torah, but just to learn it. This is not only prohibited by Jewish law, but also condemned in the strongest terms; yet the scholarly class have taken a prohibition, and turned it into a commandment, because it benefits them. A third example is draft exemptions for yeshiva students, even though -- as has been pointed out before on this mailing list -- the halakha clearly states that "bmilxemeth mitzva hakkol yotz'im, afilu xathan mixedro vkhallah mixupathah". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:43:23 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minhagim Message-ID: R' Martin Brody wrote: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Rambam's rejection can be distinguished from what we do now. The Rambam also held that we never change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta?am tachton, and so it appears we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with ta?am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, in which case it?s perfectly fine to stand. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:45:42 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah Message-ID: The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he does so here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Feb 11 10:20:47 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58288555-F618-4C81-866B-E853B664DA8C@cox.net> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who consistently stood for the entire leining. I would assume that was their minhag. The other thing I learned that many of my peers did not know and that was the halacha regarding whether you stand for the sh?ma or sit. The answer is if you are already sitting, you remain seated and conversely, if you are already standing, you remain standing. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 11 14:34:55 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should they daven? what else should they do?)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 14 08:25:30 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:25:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I typically eat only cholov Yisrael products. Accidentally, I bought a cereal that is labeled OU-D. I checked with the OU?s Webbe Rebbe (Kosherq at OU.org) and was told the cereal does not contain actual dairy, but it is made on dairy equipment. I opened the box, and I can no longer return it to the store. May I eat the cereal? A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot must be kashered before it is re-used. Nonetheless, there are various positions among poskim regarding food that was cooked in cholov akum pots in our contemporary times. The issue revolves around the current status of commercial milk. It is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l and other contemporary poskim held that the prohibition of cholov akum does not apply to commercial milk which is regulated and monitored by government agencies. Others reject this leniency. Still a third group are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As such, there are the following positions: * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position on commercial milk would obviously have no problem cooking in pots used for cholov stam. (Cholov stam is milk that was not supervised by a mashgiach, but was produced in a dairy that is monitored for purity by government inspectors.) * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a chumrah (stringency). This position is further split into two camps with respect to cholov stam keilim : Some are stringent only regarding actual cholov stam, but are lenient with respect to cholov stam keilim. This was the position of Rav Henkin, zt?l (Teshuvos Ivra 43). Others maintained the same stringency applies to keilim as well. Rav Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan HaLevi 22:5) writes that this was the position of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt?l. Nonetheless, one can argue that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would allow using a cholov stam pot that may have been unused for 24 hours. The basis for this is the Shach (YD 119:20) who writes that if a person has a chumra that his neighbor does not observe, he may still eat food that was cooked in his neighbors pot, so long as the food was not cooked specifically for him (i.e., the food was also cooked for those who are not strict), and it is not known if the pot was used in the past 24 hours. A similar argument can be made to permit the cereal in our original question, since it was already purchased, and it is not known if the equipment was used for dairy in the past 24 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 07:30:09 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] HALF A SHEKEL IS BETTER THAN NONE Message-ID: <29FD8EA8-0052-4B93-ACD1-422064094773@cox.net> As you know, this Shabbos is Shabbos Shekalim as well as Shabbos M'vorchim. I'm reminded of the Hazzan who was chanting the Rosh Chodesh Bentching and was very careful not to repeat words. But he had to fit the melody to the prayer so he sang ".....chayim she parnoso, chayim shel shekalim....." At least the uninformed realized it was Shabbos Shekalim. The Mishna Meg. 3:4 explains in the days of the monarchy, the shekel tax had become a permanent institution, and its proceeds together with other freewill offerings were used to maintain and repair the Temple (ll Kings 12:15-17; 22:3-7). Since the shekel tax was due on the first of Nisan, the Rabbis ordained that this section (30:11-16) be read as an added Torah portion about a month before: on the Shabbos before the new moon of Adar or on Rosh Chodesh itself, if it fell on Shabbos. Because of this added reading the Sabbath has become known as Shabbos Shekalim. (There is also a talmudic treatise called Shekalim). L?havdil, as a side, Christian Scriptures, Matthew 17:27, notes that Peter paid the tax for both himself and his master. The Zionist movement at its first congress (1897) revived the shekel as a common expression of support for Eretz Yisroel. The number of shekel holders became an indication of the strength of political Zionism. There were 165,000 in 1907 and in 1946 there were 2,160,000. In Yalkut Me'am Lo'ez. Sh?mos, Vol.lll, pp. 1068-1069, the question is asked why the sum chosen for expiation was fixed at one-half shekel (30:15). The reason was because Joseph had been sold into Egypt by his brothers for twenty dinars, i.e. five shekels. There being ten brothers, this amounted to a profit of one-half shekel for each. Another explanation: It was expiation for the sin of the golden calf. (Though this sin is told later, in chapter 32, the comment is based on the talmudic principle of Ein mukdam um'uchar baTorah. This same issue is raised in Mishpatim because Ch.24 shifts from the laws, that have been the subject of the Sidrah, back to the Revelation at Sinai. There is a machlokes among the m'forshim regarding when the events in this chapter took place. According to Rashi, the events recorded in verses 1-11 occurred before the Ten Commandments were given. Ramban, Ibn ezra, Rashbam, among others, maintain that these events took place after Israel had received the Ten Commandments and Moses had taught them the laws of the previous 3 chapters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 12:52:19 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 15:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag Message-ID: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> I?m not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until ?Im kesef talve.? And the second week is the second half. I don?t know which haftarah they use for the second week. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 17 20:52:17 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag In-Reply-To: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> References: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200218045217.GA2684@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 03:52:19PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely > a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot > read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until "Im > kesef talve." And the second week is the second half. I don't know which > haftarah they use for the second week. I had always wondered why the standard chapterization of the Seifer haChinukh starts a new parashash there. I was wondering if this was an actual minhag, or just a way to split up the 52 mitzvos that are in Mishpatim to more managable chapters. Now I know! Thanks. The Chinukh was written by R Aharon haLeci in Barcelona in the 13th cent. Although the chapterization may be far later, so I don't know what that says about the scope and evolution of that minhag. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 18 13:51:24 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim Message-ID: Heard in a daf yomi shiur -- R Sholom Rosner was: -- critical of minhag of oleh to not say birkas hatorah on tochacha -- critical of the minhag that women don't make a mezumin when they are three on their own; or, if with 10 men, not answering the mizumin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:23:05 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:23:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:25:46 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers Message-ID: I spent some time looking for commentaries explaining the focus on the donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers. I realize it's probably projection but I came up with two possibilities. The first was that many places the donkey seems to be taking somebody to their destiny (Think avraham Moshe bilaam......)I was thinking when they might've been concerned that they would be unable to fulfill theirs My other thought was that they represented technological extensions Of human ability ( think vcivshuha) And they would be unable to fulfill their human capabilities and be no more than another animal Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at chamor and saw chomer(material world) Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 20 11:11:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200220191100.GA15866@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:23:05AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: > But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? In terms of the tech, we're not close yet, and may never be. To weave a derashah into my explanation of that sentence, the word "binah" can refer to thought in at least two ways: - from "bein", the art of making distinctions -- bein qodesh lekhol, bein or lechoshekh... Being able to characterize this as an A, that as a B, this is spam, this is not spam. And when things are not separated: this A and B share features that would allow them to belong to the same font, whereas that A & B are in another. Finding the limits of sets, to know what to separate. That's what AI is now doing. Using what boils down to a lot of linear algebra to draw lines between sets using known examples of what's in and what's out. That can be obvious in cases of AI reading CT or MRI scans. But that is also how automous vehicles decide when to change lanes, accelerate, or whatnot. There are two sets: a right time and a wrong time. - from "binyan", the art of combining facts. Whether making deductions of the sort you did formally in Geomatry class, or inductions -- figuring out that those sets even exist. There is AI that does binyan-binah. It is very simple, generally just searching the space of possibilities until it hits sueccess (as defined for it). That's not what ML is about, and it's not where we are close to the commercial application. And may never be. Then there is informal thought. Conclusions you can only reach because you not only have a concept of red in your head, but you know what it is like to see red. (Apologies to the color blind for that example.) In terms of hashkafah... I argued that lo bashamayim hee has more to do with whose hands halakhh is in than whose it isn't. A pesaq can only come from someone who (to jump ahead to the end of the statement) "befikha ublivavkha la'asoso". Related to that knowing what red is *like*, knowing what moral is *like* is arguably a fundamental element of what a poseiq brings to the question. And even if that argument fails hashkafically, halachically pro forma a poseiq must be a mentally competent Jewish male adult who you believed has the appropriate knowledge, ability and experience (experiential knowledge?). It's the difference between whether any error would be your aveira beshogeig or your doing the right thing in following a pesaq. (And the the case of a human poseiq, their shogeig.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything. http://www.aishdas.org/asp If you want time, you must make it. Author: Widen Your Tent - Charles Buxton - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From cantorwolberg at cox.net Fri Feb 21 05:54:14 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Purim Twist Message-ID: <810C4798-B74F-40A2-B8AA-1CF357667DF4@cox.net> 1) We're all familiar with the custom and law of making much noise when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the Megilla. The standard answer to why we do it is to drown out his name. I see another reason. We must make a lot of noise against EVIL. Haman, a descendant of Amalek, is evil personified. We cannot be silent in the face of evil. We must yell, shout, and make all the noise we can. (Does this sound timely)? 2) If we were asked the etymology of the word "Megilla," we would say it comes from the word galal, "to roll." The word gelila, "wrapping the Torah" also comes from the same root. I came across a nice midrashic twist. As we know the word "Esther" has as its root "samech, tof, reish" for hidden. Interestingly, Megilla has been explained to have the root giluy, which means "revealed." Hence, we have a major theme for the Megilla -- revealing that which is hidden. From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Feb 21 07:49:15 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: "Rich, Joel" wrote: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article (to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts. In it, he talks about future possibilities. https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/ (PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form already.) It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether the machine-made connections make sense or not. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 11:58:18 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: > There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon > `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned > by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An > example of this category is the practice of earning a living from > teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like the Rambam. There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo. (Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but the Bartenura disagrees apparently.) R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah to make your daily bread? Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original: Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for, and not the learning itself. Thinking out loud: The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod, that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution instead of just "don't take pay". But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that "most". On to a very different topic, same subject line... On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I recall in my youth that there were individuals who > consistently stood for the entire leining. I would > assume that was their minhag. My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian. Amu"sh.) My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk, not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam, and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing for the diberos: > he Rambam also held that we never > change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that > we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears > we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. > My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with > ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, > in which case it's perfectly fine to stand. Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for everything. Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos. Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean a- pesaqim specific to a community b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin c- ... anything else? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:45:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour to chatzos is only bedi'eved. So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:53:40 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224205340.GB9637@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at : chamor and saw chomer(material world) The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they are in charge of their chomer side. Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason" symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me, I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Feb 24 18:58:03 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:58:03 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? --------------------------- At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan KT Joel THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 25 09:00:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200225170034.GI27056@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved or hefsed situations. But I was confused about the first question: >> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, >> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven >> is at the beginning of that time range? On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening > with a minyan The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at haneitz. In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar. Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else is also yotzei. Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.) Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan. The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema (Rambam). Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 26 04:50:01 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply z'rizin makdimin. I'm even tempted to say that it has nothing to do with z'rizin makdimin, and the proof is that the same pasuk is used for two purposes: Shacharis at the very beginning of the day, and also Mincha at the very end. Mechaber 89:1 - "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." Brachos 29b - R' Yochanan said, "It's a mitzva to pray when the sun is red." R' Zeira said, "What's the pasuk? Yira'ucha im shamesh, v'lifnay yare'ach, dor dorim." (Tehillim 72:5) Brachos 29b Rashi - "Yira'ucha im shamesh" - This is Tefilas Yotzer. "V'lifnay yare'ach" - This is Tefilas Mincha. Shabbos 118b Rashi - "V'lifnay yare'ach" - Prior to the light of the moon, while the sun has not yet set. Brachos 29b Steinzaltz - "When the sun is red" - Tefilas Yotzer with Haneitz Hachama, and Tefilas Mincha with Shkias Hachama. Brachos 29b ArtScroll note 11 - These two times (just after sunrise and just prior to sunset) are the most propitious for reciting the morning and afternoon Prayers respectively. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva ( http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24777) which says: "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day to pray - "with sunrise." And optimal time for the Minchah prayer is at the end of the day, as the sun is setting - "before the moon." I believe that the above is true l'halacha, but in the l'maaseh there is a very big difference between Shacharis and Mincha, perhaps explained best by Gemara Brachos 29b, immediately after the line I quoted above. "In the west [Eretz Yisrael] they would curse someone who davens [Mincha] when the sun gets red. Why? Because he might miss the zman." In order words, there is no downside to saying Shacharis at the very earliest time, but there is a very great danger in delaying Mincha to the very latest time. I suspect that this is why discussions about the time for Mincha center on "How early CAN I daven", and not on "When is the BEST time to daven." Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 26 07:10:59 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200226151059.GE3829@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:50am EST, R Akiva Miller wrote: > R' Micha Berger wrote: >> So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. > The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply > z'rizin makdimin... Which is why my post continued. As I noted, the Rambam says it's the sole right time, and everything else is inferior. Why would he say that? Likely the pasuq the machaber quotes: > Mechaber 89:1 -- "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one > should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." And so, I concluded that the main reason is being chosheish for the Rambam's reasoning. But even if your confidence in halachic process is such that you don't need to go beyond the Tur's shitah and minhag yisrael, there is still zerizim maqdimin. But there is more! Because doing anything before minyan is lesse Majeste or borders on it. (Thus we don't eat before davening, uless needed for davening, we don't go in order to greet people...) So, there is more drive for "as early as possible" than most mitzvos. And I think that is why: > Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, > other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva > () which says: > "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day > to pray -- "with sunrise."... I have heard Breslover speakers argue similarly. Kevasiqin is for OT1H chassidim and other benei aliyah who want to follow the beautiful idea in the pasuq in Tehillim, and OTOH for Briskers and the sort who are regularly chosheshim for rejected shitos. But never caught on among those in the middle. (It is also more common among actual vasiqin, as waking up enough before haneitz to catch a minyan kevasiqin is frustratingly common among the more "ancient" among us. That's when my father amu"sh started.) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" -- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From eliturkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 14:17:58 2020 From: eliturkel at gmail.com (Eli Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 00:17:58 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus Message-ID: halkachic cautions in the face of coronavirus https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/02/precautions-in-shul-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus/ -- Eli Turkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 13:31:37 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> References: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200301213137.GA13398@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean > a- pesaqim specific to a community > b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin > c- ... anything else? RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis until marriage. Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes, it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's all post facto. And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost. So there is a (c) for my list c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic. Anyone have a suggestion for (d)? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 14:02:05 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following: > A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) > writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot > must be kashered before it is re-used... > are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but > nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As > such, there are the following positions: > * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be > halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as > non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. > * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient > position on commercial milk would... > * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position > in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a > chumrah... This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's, as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago). But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation. Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify. Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against adulterating his milk. Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS. Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly (YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews. Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all. So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or that of another CY eater.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift. http://www.aishdas.org/asp The purpose of life Author: Widen Your Tent is to give it away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Pablo Picasso From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 15:35:52 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly. For example, I recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold in NY as kosher was actually treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper kashrus standards.. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 15:58:22 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <07ea01d5f025$4c5d3250$e51796f0$@aishdas.org> From: Prof. Levine Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST > At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. > Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for > those who wanted to keep kosher properly... But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened? My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical, since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting pesaq halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Mar 1 20:11:23 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 04:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. -------------------------------------- And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 2 07:30:52 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > following the Peri Chadash against the CS. Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all he does is cite the Radvaz? > So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes > is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or > that of another CY eater.) Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was used with was non-CY milk. If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed up in good faith. But if you hold that it's actually kosher then there's no problem in the first place. And if you're kind of in the middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as snifim lehakel. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 2 13:01:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200302210134.GC3266@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. > Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all > he does is cite the Radvaz? I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse. -Micha From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:34:37 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mezuzah checked Message-ID: From the OU: Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done? A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years (i.e., every 3? years). ......... Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions of their rav when a question would be appropriate. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:57 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot Message-ID: From R'Rimon in Hamizrachi: "In light of the above (me - shtarei hedyotot et al) it would be best if there were no ads at all in our Parshat Hashavua sheets"..... "However it is very difficult to abide by these demands in our times because it's the ads that fund the publication"... "Still it would be worth having clear guidelines" This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." I'd really appreciate a better understanding of the halachic force of this consideration. Oh, and did the publishers of Hamizrachi appreciate the irony of this article appearing in their publication with advertisement which is distributed in many shuls on Shabbat? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 10:59:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self Message-ID: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Experiencing the tzelem Elokim as proof there is an Elokim? See https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/search-soul-john-cottingham-review or http://bit.ly/3czL1aK Snippets / teasers: New Statesman The paradox of an atheist soul Why the idea of a single self only makes sense in a theistic world. By John Gray There are many arguments for theism, most of them not worth rehearsing. ... A different and more interesting approach is to argue that theism is suggested by the fact that we experience ourselves as unified, conscious beings - in other words, as having a soul. Not necessarily an immaterial entity, the soul is the part of us that strives to realise what is best in our nature. We do not come to know the soul through any special revelation. We know it by considering the kind of creature we find ourselves to be - a thinking being inhabiting a life-world that seems to reflect a mind greater than our own. Once we realise we have a soul, theism becomes a credible way of thinking. Such is the approach adopted in this lucid and illuminating book by John Cottingham, professor of the philosophy of religion at University of Roehampton.... Cottingham presents a version of the transcendental argument deployed by the German Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804). A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, it asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are accepted as given. Kant used it to support his belief in a universal moral law and, at points in his writings, the existence of God. As used by Cottingham, its purpose is to refute the Scottish sceptic David Hume (1711-1776), whom Kant described as "having interrupted my dogmatic slumber". In A Treatise of Human Nature (1739), Hume had written that the self is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed one another with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement". If the self is not an autonomous entity but an assemblage of sensations Kant's theistic faith crumbles into dust. Cottingham spells out the connection between theism and the idea of the self: It is a fundamental theistic belief, following the words of Genesis, that human beings are made "in the image" of God; and this is taken to be especially true in virtue of our conscious minds, in virtue of our attributes of intellect and will. Theism thus posits a source of ground of all being that is somehow mind-like: consciousness is taken to be at the heart of reality. The theistic picture tends to be discarded or ignored by the majority of contemporary philosophers, but it seems perverse to dismiss it from consideration should it turn out to fit rather well with certain aspects of reality that cannot in integrity be denied... [such as] the irreducible reality of consciousness. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 11:15:13 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> In a recent post in Torah Musings , R Daniel Mann answers a question about a new practice some have regarding parashas Zakhor. Again, snippets: Question: My shul has always read Parashat Zachor once, with our regular havara (pronunciation). Some people now complain that we do not follow other shuls and read multiple times with different havarot to fulfill the mitzva according to more opinions and to do the mitzva properly for Sephardim. Should we change our minhag? First he brings arguments that one doesn't need correct havara to be yotzei. Whether because the deOraisa doesn't need to be in lashon haqodesh, or perhaps has no specific text, or RMF's (IM OC 3:5) proof from chalitza that havara is not meqev, or that an Ashkenzi who doesn't distinguish between alef and ayin may serve as chazan for Ashkenazim... The latter two arguments saying that "correct havarah" is societal. Still, one might need to have Parashas Zakhor available in many havaros if the community is of people of different eidos. At least as a chumerah. But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... Several (Teshuvot V'hanhagot ibid.; Halichot Shlomo ibid.; Aseh Lecha Rav VI:22) mention hearing of such a new practice and consider it strange. They reject it as being disrespectful to the tzibbur, to the rest of our lainings, and/or to past generations who did not do such things. I would not criticize a minyan that decides to do so anyway (some fine places do), and there are circumstances in which there is a stronger argument (e.g., there is no minyan in the area of other eidot), but it is wrong to criticize the normal minhag for not adopting this innovation. In the early days of the list, I was particularly prone to Brisker chumeros (trying to be yotzei as many shitos as possible) or to chumeros or pesaqim that allow expression of how I understood the mitzvah hashkafically. I think learning a cycle and a fraction of AhS Yomi has toned that down. At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of confidence in the halachic process. As for hashkafically motivated pesaq, that's still with me more. But I think I've gotten to an age where I finally understand the value of continuity as well. (I mentioned before, though, my mother's observation about the family she married in to. My grandfather got to the US too young to be aware of most of his minhagim and therefore ended up acting as per R/Dr Mirsky's shiurim. My father's decades of "the Rav's" (RYBS's) Tues night shiur, and repreatedly took on the implications of those shiurim. And then my own habits. Doing what fits what we learned in shiur last IS the onky continuity my family practice has.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Live as if you were living already for the http://www.aishdas.org/asp second time and as if you had acted the first Author: Widen Your Tent time as wrongly as you are about to act now! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 4 11:36:42 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36.2D.07714.B14006E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:25 PM 3/4/2020, R. Joel Rich wrote: >People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients >listed on the label. > >-------------------------------------- >And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" >KT >Joel Rich Since when to two wrongs make a right? Also one has to keep in mind that in many places everything was made from scratch. My mother-in-law comes from a small town in Hungary. There was essentially no prepared anything. Baking was done at home, meat and chickens were kashered at home, etc. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Mar 6 08:19:30 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: Good stuff from Rav Aviner: http://www.ravaviner.com/2020/03/hilchot-corona.html Some of the questions include: Q: Is one obligated to listen to the instructions of the Ministry of Health regarding Corona? Q: Does one fulfill the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim on the phone? Q: If a person is in quarantine for Corona, what does he do about Davening in a Minyan? Q: Should one refrain from kissing Mezuzot on account of Corona? Q: How could someone get sick with Corona while hearing the Megillah when the Gemara states, "Harm will not befall one on the way to perform a Mitzvah"? Q: What is Hashem trying to teach us with the Corona Virus in the world? and many more -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 17:58:20 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing > practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, > some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different minhagim? -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 18:25:10 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > accepted as given. One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is universal. "Kol echad be`atzmo shi`er", and assumed everyone else must be the same. If that assumption is not true, it can lead to utter confusion, as people debate at cross-purposes, each completely unable to understand the other's arguments. See, for an example, https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like? Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even existed. The debate was resolved by Francis Galton, a fascinating man who among other achievements invented eugenics, the "wisdom of crowds", and standard deviation. Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images. Dr. Berman dubbed this the Typical Mind Fallacy: the human tendency to believe that one's own mental structure can be generalized to apply to everyone else's. -- Zev Sero Have a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:23:48 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: > One should therefore refrain from touching or kissing Mezuzot. < My practice for some time has been to "point to" (essentially, reach towards but not touch) the m'zuzah as I pass (and when I leave my house, to say, "Baruch ata b'vo'echa, uvaruch ata b'tzeisecha"). However, having trouble getting used to a clenched-fist (and hate the dangerous elbow) greeting... :). --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:53:00 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. Very well phrased! I have often felt this way, but was unable to find the words to express it. Thank you. For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Mar 9 07:09:31 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. ----------------------------------- Or a lack of confidence in oneself (or their ability/worthiness to decide)? I often think of R? Schachter comparing the personalities of R? Chaim and the Netziv and wonder if this could be explained on that basis. Enough said? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 11 11:47:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:47:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] NYT Ethicist Message-ID: NYT Ethicist - What would halacha be? Q.I have been struck by a fatal disease, inherited from my father. I have children, who know they have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the disease from me. I have several siblings. One has children of her own. She has so far refused to be tested on the off chance that she, too, has the gene. This means that her children don't know anything about the cause of my disease. There are interventions that could protect any future grandchildren, but her children don't know they are in danger of passing the disease along. I have been tempted to tell my sister's children myself, but I know this would result in a major breach in our relationship (a real loss to me). What is my ethical responsibility here? Name Withheld A. ... The trouble isn't that your sister refuses to be tested. That's her choice. ... The trouble is that she wants to prevent her children from knowing what she already knows. By keeping them in the dark, she's robbing them of the ability to make their own choices. And here's a critical point. Even if they declined to be tested themselves, simply knowing that they're at risk would enable them to protect any children they might have in the future, through "nondisclosure testing." Clinics can conduct pre?implantation embryo screening without sharing the results with the at-risk parent... Preserving your own uncertainty is defensible; putting others in jeopardy is not... As painful as a breach in your relationship with your sister would be, it's clear that your sister's misguided plan is itself weighing heavily on you. Urge her to level with her children about the facts. (She could implore them not to tell her if they are tested and get a positive result.) Were she still to refuse, tell them yourself. KT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:53:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200311205357.GG11689@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 08:58:20PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing >> practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, >> some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... > How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 > kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different > minhagim? Chazal wanted everyone doing the same thing, but rather than mandate one definition of the teru'ah to the exclusion of the others, we all do all three of them. This innovation breaks from everyone doing the same. But more than that... Chazal had the power to pasqen and would have pasqened if they didn't feel this compromise brought more achdus. Being chosheish for shitas Rashi after centuries of no one (or kim'at no one) blew according to shitas Rashi is an unwillingness to pasqen. And an unwillingness to accept that the halachic process can actually say A is right and B wrong. It's questioning the whole concept of pesaq! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:02:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311200248.GD11689@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:45:42AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be > holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six > different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). > > This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he > does so here? Never found an answer, and a month later, I'm giving up. BUT, I liked the Y-mi's explanation at the end of Challah pereq 1 (vilna daf 9b) cited at the SA ad loc by the Gra -- OC 167 s"q 4 . The ten fingers are a reminder of the 10 mitzvos it took to get the bread: 1- Lo sacharosh - Not plowing with a kelaim of animals 2- Bal tizra - Not planting kelaim 3- Bal tachsom - Not muzzling the animals to keep them from eating 4- Leqet 5- Shikhechah 6- Pei'ah 7- Terumah 8- Maaser Rishon 9- Maaser Sheini (or Maaser Ani, depending on the year, though not mentioned in the Y-mi) 10- Challah Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:20:47 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live R Ari Kahn (of Bar Ilan) came out in favor of such readings, the mar'eh meqomos for his shiur are available at https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2020/03/hearing-megillah-over-telephone-or.html AIUI, RAK's primary concern was to reassure people who have no choice, and to make sure questionable cases don't risk spreading disease by showing up. So he really presents the case for only one side. RGS pointed people to R Daniel Z Feldman's (RIETS) older piece (not reflecting this year's she'as hadechaq) in Tradition at https://traditiononline.org/the-virtual-minyain which gives both sides of the story. I tried to lend my megillah to someone so that they could listen to the above-linked reading at YU and read along from a kosher megillah. But, my livingroom is being painted, the bookcase where I keep my megillah was among those boxed up, and someone else beat me to the mitzvah. In Westchester County, NY, Chabad managed to organize leining for 100 quarantined people by having the baal qeriah read on a deck or porch, outside an open door or window. But such arrangements are not available to everyone. I saw on Facebook the following social concern that I thought was interesting and valid enough to share here. https://www.facebook.com/matthew.kritz.9/posts/2899197760173502 R Matthew Nitzanim writes (in part): This is why I fear the live-feed Megillah readings. There is no doubt that it is the most practical solution to ensure more people hear the Megillah, without risking more people catching the virus, and there is arguably halachic grounds to allow the practice (even as the debate continues), especially under these extenuating circumstances. But once virtual readings are normalized, what will Purim look like next year? I'm not too worried about no one showing up for Megillah next year - we all know it's more fun to boo for Haman and show off our costumes with friends around. But what about all those people who are alone, boxed out of society? Will the hospital and the rehab center call the local yeshiva for volunteers to come visit, or will they suffice with arranging a dial-in reading (which will inevitably come to be replaced with a recording for those who can't distinguish)? Will the readers and merry-makers of years past feel less push to pay visits when the mitzvah can be fulfilled electronically? Certainly this change wouldn't happen in just one year, but perhaps we are setting a precedent that will be taken seriously in years to come. Because what's at stake is not merely the obligation to hear the Megillah. What is at stake is the future of community and interpersonal connection in the age of digital media. Performing one of our most communal mitzvot through a screen means radically reimagining the very meaning of community, a process that is already well underway. Among the Orthodox, the study of Torah, traditionally intended to bring people into the same room, is increasingly done via recorded shiurim. Elsewhere in the Jewish world, services are taped and can be watched from home, and you can even find a dial-in Kaddish minyan. And shout out to the various Skype Seudot and Zoom Tishes spreading Purim cheer to the quarantined. Each of these is an exciting way digital communication can be used to better include those would otherwise be left out. But if we aren't careful with the pace of development, we will end up creating tools that, although intended to increase connection and participation, will further distance and disenfranchise those who were already only hoping for a visitor or two, and will be left with nothing but a computer screen. What we are watching is reminiscent of the Conservative Movement's ruling permitting driving on Shabbat -- intended to increase access to communal life, but perhaps in the process weakening the physical proximity that keeps community alive, with only time to tell whether the benefits outweigh the costs. So too with screen talk: appealing as it may be in this moment, down the road, we risk harming the very deep sense of community that held us together in ancient Persia and through the ages to this very day. Maybe this is a moment where we would benefit from Halacha being less accommodating of the present, and more oppositional and countercultural.... So he recommends making a heqer: So be cautious this Purim, not only hygienically, but spiritually too. If I had a say, I would encourage those who are doing the holy work of reading Megillah by livestream for people in quarantine not to say the Brachot, even if they are also reading for themselves, to make clear that this is a sub par, temporary fix, and not necessarily an ideal, long term change. And finally, this nice thought is off topic for the thread, but worth sharing: More importantly, for everyone stuck at home this Purim, please take it upon yourself, once your quarantine is LONG SINCE OVER, to pay a visit to someone who feels alone for more than two weeks at a time. It can be next Purim, or maybe even sooner. Take your experience of being homebound, and allow it to be a springboard for being more aware of the many, many people who would give anything not to be alone, to be greeted by a friendly face with a warm smile, by someone who remembered that it's Purim for them too. More than an ecard, or a phone call, or a Zoom chat, what they really want to see is you. qiyum is suboptimal. -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:28:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202821.GF11689@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving > priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." What the "this" was aside, I didn't think that's why we ignore those priorities. Rather, it ends up never being halakhah lemaaseh even from day one. The mishnah itself says these priorities are "all else being equal". And all else is never equal. The reisha is just one triage factor among many. The problem, thus, isn't abiding, but in deciding which mamzer is enough of a talmid chakham to go ahead of the kohein gadol, or which baal chessed outranks the innate qedushah of a kohein. Or... Lack of ability to assess, not lack of emotional constitution to follow through. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:56:30 2020 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or rimon? On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos > that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic > transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > > From penkap at panix.com Wed Mar 11 18:28:28 2020 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: ? For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" ?And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. ?So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. ?A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers.? The amount of sechel in this comment is almost overwhelming. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 11 21:26:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Perhaps one can add as a snif to "permit" it the Chasam Sofer on Hil' Kidush Levana, citing a case during a cholera epidemic in Cracow, when the rov of the time found a heter to say kidush levana on the 16th night so that people who would not otherwise be able to say it should not get depressed and ch"v endanger themselves. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:58:07 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: On Areivim, the issue was raised that the shuls in Bergen County NJ are now closed, and the question of "house minyanim" was raised too. I have a question about house minyanim that I'd like to discuss. My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. Once that minyan exists, additional people can be in adjoining rooms, provided that they can see and hear. I've often been at house minyanim where fewer people are in the room with the Shliach Tzibur, and the rest are in an adjoining room. The doorway between them is so wide that people don't give it a second thought. It seems to me that even though there is no actual door separating these two rooms, the fact that there's a mezuzah between them might define them as distinct rooms for the halacha of establishing a minyan. I hope I have explained the situation clearly enough. The MB does not seem to specify the width of the doorway in question, nor did I see any distinction between a "doorway" and an "open door". I suppose someone could argue that the problem exists only for standard-width doors which happen to be open at the moment, and that there's no problem for a living room and dining room that happen to have a mezuzah between them. Has anyone see any poskim write about this? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:02:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hand shake Message-ID: Listened to a shiur where the magid shiur said that R'X used to advise job interviewees to use the dead fish handshake, then later advised the iron man handshake until he was told that each of those would not get you a job. Now he advises a firm, quick business-like handshake. May I vent - I heard R'X say these things over the years and always wondered who he had asked about the real world. How many job opportunities were lost?? etc.?? How much of a responsibility does a poseik have to determine "reality"? (Another example - toveiling electronics) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:04:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals Message-ID: Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 18 08:05:11 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> On 18/3/20 3:04 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals > per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in > halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and condiments to make the bread taste better. Sometimes a grain porridge would substitute for the bread, but the essential roles were the same. To us, the bread, if it appears at all, is a condiment or entree to the real food. We don't eat bread with meat, we eat meat with bread. Even with grains, we regard them as a side dish, not as the main part of the course. So in principle the entire basis of hil' bh"n should be reversed. Next: Undoing the whole concept of 7 mashkim, and the principle that the juice of any fruit but grapes and olives is not a mashkeh. Not just in hil' bh"n and shabbos, but also in hil' taharos. (At least in principle, since they're not practical halachos anyway.) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 11:33:16 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: In Avodah V38n19, RAMiller noted: > My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. < But see the latter half of BH 55:14/MB 55:50. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Mar 15 18:42:51 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper _______________________________________________ Areivim mailing list Areivim at lists.aishdas.org http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 19 07:10:49 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 4 amos and Epidimeology Message-ID: <20200319141049.GA17120@aishdas.org> Is it "coincidence" or do you think it's common cause: The recommended distance to be sure we don't breathe on each other is given as 6 feet or 2 m, depending on what the masses being recommended to think in. Which "just happens to be" just around the 4 amos radius used to define a person's space for the sake of davening or acquisitions. (As an ammah is defined by to the Rambam, R Chaim Naeh, and the plaque on the wall found at Chizqiyahu's water tunnel. Not the CI. Would tzadiq gozer veE' meqayeim mean that people need to be be staying farther apart in Bnei Braq to be safe?) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 19 09:23:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> References: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> Message-ID: There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. =================================== He also said (From R' Torcyner translation): And after each prayer, evening and morning, they should recite Tehillim, certain psalms which his honour should select, and then the text of Kel rachum sh'mecha, Aneinu Hashem aneinu, Mi she'anah, and the Y'hi ratzon after Tehillim, mentioning in it the king, may Gd protect him, and his children and nobles and all who live in his land. IMHO the last part is also about the realization that a united community response is required bderech hateva (not each subsegment deciding on its own what to do) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 05:20:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:20:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger by R Herschel Schachter Message-ID: <20200320122008.GA4902@aishdas.org> This is an abornamlly long piece for Facebook, but it's making the rounds there. :-)BBii! -Micha The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger Rav Hershel Schachter Many have the mistaken impression that the Jewish religion places much emphasis on death and respect for the dead; after all, we recite kaddish, yizkor, observe shiva, and yahrzeit, etc. This is a gross misunderstanding. The respect that we show for the dead is a carryover from the respect that we show for the living. The Gemorah (Kesubos 17a, see Shitah Mekubetzes) tells us that whenever there is a conflict between kovod ha'chayim and kovod ha'meisim, kovod ha'chaim takes precedence. When the chevra kadisha brings in the aron at a funeral, everyone stands up. People mistakenly think that we stand up out of respect for the niftar, but in many cases we never stood up for him when he was alive, so why should we stand up for him now that he passed away? The Bartenurah (Mishnayos Bikurim 3:3) explains that we are not standing up out of respect for the niftar but rather out of respect for the members of the chevra kaddisha who are presently involved in the fulfillment of a mitzvah. The respect for the living is based on the premise that all human beings were created b'tzelem Elokim. When the Torah requires us to demonstrate kovod ha'meis, it means that even after the person passed away and no longer has tzelem Elokim, i.e. a neshama, we still have to act respectfully towards the body because it used to have a tzelem Elokim. Of the six hundred and thirteen mitzvos, one of the most important is the mitzvah of v'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem (Yoma 85b). Not only does the halacha require that if there is a sofek sakanah we must violate almost all of the mitzvos in the Torah to save a life, but we are also required to do so even if there is only a s'fek s'feika, a remote possibility(Yoma 85a). The Gemorah (ibid) adds that even if the likelihood is that by violating Shabbos or whatever other aveira we most probably will not be saving anyone's life, we still do not abstain from the action due to that likelihood (rove - majority). When Bnei Yisroel were traveling in the midbar for 40 years, the weather conditions were such that there was a slight sakanah in performing bris milah. Most of the sh'votim did not fulfill the mitzvah except for sheivet Levi[1]. They had an Orthodox rabbi among them, i.e. Moshe Rabbeinu. Why didn't all the shevatim ask him what to about this sofek sakanah? If it is a real sofek sakanah he should not have permitted sheivet Levi to perform the mitzvah despite their pietistic protests, and if the sofek sakanah was so insignificant that it simply should have been dismissed, why didn't he insist that all the shevatim perform the mitzvah of milah? The Gemorah (Yevamos 12b) tells us that the answer is to be found in Tehillim (116:6), "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." Whenever there is a slight sofek sakanah that is nowhere near fifty-fifty[2], the halacha declares that it depends on the attitude of the patient. If the patient whose life is at risk (or the parent of the patient who is responsible for his well-being) is personally not nervous about the danger, then the halacha does not consider it a sofek sakanah; we apply "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." But if the patient whose life is at risk is nervous and concerned about the sofek sakanah, then the halacha requires us to act based on, "V'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem", and the sofek sakanah takes precedence over almost all of the mitzvos of the Torah. Shevet Levi had bitachon, and therefore were not concerned, and therefore for their children it was not considered a sofek sakanah, but with respect to the other shevatim who were concerned it was in fact a sofek sakanah, so every shevet was acting k'din. However, if one individual is not concerned, but the nature of the sakanah is such that everyone is interdependent and the individual who personally is not nervous may possibly spread a disease to others who are concerned about its spread, then the concept of Shomer p'soyim Hashem does not apply. The individual who is not concerned does not have the right to determine for the others who are concerned that there is no sakanah for them. The Rakanti[3] relates that one of Ba'alei Ha'tosfos was deathly sick before Yom Kippur and the doctors warned him that if he fasts he will certainly die but if he eats on Yom Kippur there is a slim chance that he may survive. He decided to fast, and of course he died. All of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos were upset over his decision and felt that he went against the halacha. If a terrorist threatens to kill me unless I violate one of the mitzvos of the Torah, the halacha usually is that pikuach nefesh takes precedence over most of the mitzvos in the Torah. What if an individual wants to put up a fight knowing that he may well lose his life but thinks that by being moser nefesh he will fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem? This matter was a famous dispute amongst the Rishonim. The Rambam's opinion is that one may not volunteer to give up his life al kiddush Hashem when not required by halacha because this is tantamount to suicide[4]. Many other Rishonim disagreed with the Rambam. However, if there is no terrorist pressuring me to violate my religion, but there is merely a dangerous situation of sickness then all of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos agreed with the Rambam that it would not constitute a midas chassidus to ignore the sakanah[5]. In determining what is a sakanah and what is not, the practice of the Tanoim always was to follow the doctors of their generation. Every so often the Rambam would take a stand on a medical issue against what it says in the Gemorah and the Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah #101) explains that the Rambam was a doctor and he did exactly as the Tanoim did, namely, to follow the doctors of his generation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 331:9) also says explicitly that we follow the doctors of our generation even in contradiction to the medicine recommended in the Gemorah. We should certainly do the same as the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and follow the doctors of our generation in determining what is considered a sakanah and what is not considered a sakanah. Some well-meaning individuals have blown out of halachic proportion the significance of tefillah b'tzibur and talmud Torah b'rabim and have opted to ignore the sofek sakanah presented by the corona virus when in conflict with these two most important mitzvos. We live in a generation where many b'nei Torah tend to exaggerate the significance of Torah and tefillah. Although their intention is certainly l'shaim Shomayim, we must all keep in mind that when paskening shailos, one may not rely on an exaggeration. All exaggerations by definition are sheker - a misrepresentation of the truth of the Torah. Rav Chaim Volozhiner signs off quite a few of his teshuvos saying, "Keil Emes, Nosan lanu Toras Emes, u'bilti el ho'emes eineinu - the true God gave us the true Torah, and we only look for the truth." Any exaggeration in the area of Torah and halacha is clearly a misrepresentation of our religion. The commentaries on Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 157) refer to the comments of the Maharshal in his sefer Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kamma 38a) that to misrepresent a law of the Torah constitutes an aveira related to avodah zorah[6] and as such would be subject to the principle of yeihoreig v'al ya'avor. With respect to a sofek sakanah the halacha clearly requires that we go extremely l'chumrah. Especially religious Jews, who know that they are charged with a mission in life, should certainly be extremely machmir on matters of sofek sakanah. Although every word of a poem appears in the dictionary, the poet conveys an idea by putting the words in a certain order. So too, different people can have the same ideas and the same principles, but if you put them in a different arrangement you have changed the whole understanding if each one of the principles[7]. Once you exaggerate the significance of any particular mitzvah, you have misrepresented the whole picture of kol haTorah kula. [1] See Rashi, Devarim 33:9. [2] See Achiezer, volume 1, #23,2. [3] Siman 166; see Teshuvos Dvar Yehoshua, vol. 2 #94 [4] Hilchos Yesodei haTorah, 5:1. [5] See Mishna Berura 328:6. [6] Because we believe that the Torah is a description of the essence of G-d, misrepresenting the Torah is tantamount to misrepresenting G-d Himself [7] Thoughts 1:22, by Blaise Pascal` From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 07:07:03 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Message-ID: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> R R Wolpoe or R Ben Hecht (the blog post gives me mixed signals) posted the following guidelines from R Yaakov Hoffman of the Washington Heights Congregation designed for his congregation. (Not to be confused with R Yair Hoffman of the 5TJT.) http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-rrw-guest-blogger-rabbi-yaakov.html On factor I noticed RYH didn't mention that I saw others did was maintaining your usual davening times. (Assuming we're not talking about kevasiqin as the other option.) :-)BBii! -Micha NishmaBlog Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Friday, 20 March 2020 >From RRW Guest Blogger: Rabbi Yaakov Hoffman Below is a halachic guide I prepared for my shul on how to daven on Shabbos without a minyan, and general halachos one should know that are affected by not being in a shul framework on Shabbos. Feel free to use/adapt for your own shuls. Also, I would be happy to receive any he'aros you may have. Thanks. Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide - One should make an effort to daven Mincha on Friday before plag ha-mincha (this week ~5:50pm). - It is not necessary to recite the full Kabbalat Shabbat as recited in shul; reciting Lecha Dodi, Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat, Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh, and Bameh Madlikin is sufficient. One should recite Lecha Dodi and Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat before sunset (this week ~7:07pm). - Although ordinarily one should daven Maariv after nightfall when praying without a minyan, on Friday evening one may daven after plag (preferably one should wait ~20 minutes after plag). The Shema must be repeated after nightfall (tzeit ha-kochavim, this Friday ~7:42pm). - One may make Kiddush and begin the meal immediately after davening Maariv. If one has not yet begun the meal by tzeit ha-kochavim, one must repeat the Shema before eating. - Those who arise early are strongly encouraged to daven ke-vatikin -- timing one's Shacharit to begin the Amidah at sunrise (this week ~6:56am). - If one is pressed for time (e.g., in order to daven at sunrise, or because one needs to help out at home), one can skip the extra psalms added during Psukei de-Zimra on Shabbat, with the exception of Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat and Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh. - Men should take care to daven Shacharit before the latest time for the Shema (this week ~10am). - After the Amidah of Shacharit, one recites Ashrei and then the Amidah of Musaf, followed by Ein k'Elokeinu, Aleinu, and Shir shel Yom. - It is extremely advisable to read or study the weekly parashah at some point over Shabbat (and to be extra careful about shnayim mikra during the preceding week). - On Shabbat Mevarchim, it is a good idea to remind oneself and one's household about the upcoming Rosh Chodesh (Rosh Chodesh Nisan is Thursday March 26). One does not recite the formal prayer for the upcoming month that is recited in shul. - One should wash for the Shabbat morning meal before midday (this week ~1pm). - One should daven Mincha before eating se`udah shlishit. - Se`udah shlishit should begin before sunset, and may extend as long as one likes. After benching, or after 10 minutes post-sunset (whichever is later), one may not eat or drink anything except water until after Havdalah. - One should not daven Maariv on Saturday night until after Shabbat is over (this week ~7:50pm); preferably, one should not do any melacha before davening Maariv (with atah chonantanu) or making Havdalah. - Baruch Hashem L'Olam is omitted in Maariv when not davening with a minyan. The rest of Maariv, including additions for motza'ei Shabbat, is recited as usual. Veyiten lecha may be recited after Havdalah. Vihi no`am and ve'attah kadosh are omitted on the Saturday night preceding Pesach (and Shavuot, but hopefully we will be back in shul well before then!), but veyiten lecha is still recited. Yaakov Hoffman Rabbi, Washington Heights Congregation[5] www.bridgeshul.com Posted by Rabbi Ben Hecht at 9:08 am From dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk Fri Mar 20 05:02:57 2020 From: dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk (D Rubin) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> References: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 From: Zev Sero > I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so > completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made > hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who > can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and > condiments to make the bread taste better... http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29994 From zev at sero.name Fri Mar 20 08:38:46 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Also omit bracha me'ein sheva, as one does whenever one is not davening with a regularly scheduled minyan. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at Segalco.com Sat Mar 21 11:26:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Interesting-no mention of remembering to dress for shabbat KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From isaac at balb.in Sat Mar 21 04:29:28 2020 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:29:28 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis a vis Lo Sa'amod? 2. Has there been any advice to Mohelim who normally do Metzitza bPeh to cease the practice at this time? 3. Does a Rav have a Chiyuv as Mesader Kiddushin to cease proceedings until there is (in Australia) 4 meters square between people 4. Does a Caterer have a Chiyuv to cease serving food at a Simcha or the like if it too is breaching guidelines? _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ??? From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:35:43 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kshering Metal Sinks Message-ID: . The Chicago CRC has a video on hag'alat keilim at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HSfRG69ho&feature=youtu.be I am curious about two things he said at 6:52-6:59, about kashering a metal sink: 1) "make sure that it's a continuous flow and not to stop in the middle from that pot" 2) "start from the bottom and then you work your way up" Why should it be a continuous flow? What's wrong with pausing the flow, as long as every square millimeter gets hit? And what is the advantage of doing the floor of the sink prior to the walls? Alternatively, what's the downside of kashering the walls first? My totally uneducated guess is that the runoff from the walls would do a "chozer v'niur" on the floor, cancelling the 24-hour wait, whereas if the floor is done first, the runoff from the walls is not sufficiently chometzdik to invalidate the kashering. Am I close? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 24 16:23:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: <20200324232314.GA12402@aishdas.org> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 I see two distinct conversations here: - Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? - Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc... When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria. -Micha IsraelNationalNews.com Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33 A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the presence of the "Zoom" program. The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly people who cannot be physically close to their family members due to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their family through the program. The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the start of the holiday. Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency. "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness, so is the case here," the rabbis wrote. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:29:48 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minor fasts? Message-ID: The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare with other b'al nefesh call outs? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:31:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut Message-ID: A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have failed this test. Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:18:33 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder Message-ID: More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to him? I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps, and we would not want to skip any of them. For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on, and then eating the karpas. But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha, the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately. Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on during the meal. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they arise. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 25 13:40:14 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:40:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:56:23 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325215623.GC14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > > accepted as given. > > One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is > universal.... Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal. > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example ... > Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually > a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't > think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist > that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." > Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of > famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading > scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even > existed. And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population. https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US. https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are non-sighted people. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:37:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> Message-ID: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: > 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching > government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis > a vis Lo Sa'amod? I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera > epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, > davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan > that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to > station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:33:51 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The 5780th Pasuk Message-ID: <20200325213351.GA11104@aishdas.org> There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the corresponding pasuq. So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24: Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov... Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to the year of RMF's petirah. So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28: Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah ve'ein bahem tevunah. Of course, I don't know what to make of that. OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth, 5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim): Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha... >From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at "R Eliyahu Shelomo". This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the 601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo: Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz... (I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es haqeitz.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:40:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? See AhS OC 158:13 , where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not, and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open -- safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:04:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325220433.GD14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote: > On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos >> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic >> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or > rimon? You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit if an esrog is unavailable. If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is complex. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Decisions are complex. Author: Widen Your Tent The Torah is complex. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' Binyamin Hecht From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:19:11 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: <20200325211911.GA6964@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable >> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as >> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the >> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt >> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would >> have failed this test. Thoughts? > He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his > colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, > Achiyah Hashiloni. The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact limits of a relative term. If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim, then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the seeds were there. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 10:40:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m! Message-ID: <20200326174000.GA8153@aishdas.org> Save the date! SAVE THE DATE Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020 1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom! https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598 There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time with a Facebook account, just email me at micha at aishdas.org and ask to be included. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 25 23:15:16 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. --------------------------- For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah KT and stay safe Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:14:21 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger asked: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 > ... > Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi > names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA > systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article. I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this in paragraph Aleph: "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei Ashkenaz. But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other reasons? Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 09:24:16 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >> a vis Lo Sa'amod? > > I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera >> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, >> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan >> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to >> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 12:14:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus Message-ID: <20200326191427.GB19172@aishdas.org> The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't want to post the question, but invited me to. RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that is particularly communicable. As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum number of people necessary. But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to the babies. Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear someone discuss the question? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From crclbas at mail.aol.com Thu Mar 26 13:16:34 2020 From: crclbas at mail.aol.com (BenS) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom seder Message-ID: <202003862i1634.GA18647@aishdas.org> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger wrote: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 ... >> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the >> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly >> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due >> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their >> family through the program. I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak. Ben From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 15:02:56 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >>> a vis Lo Sa'amod? >> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ... > No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In > that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested > that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government > to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it > (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing > them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know > how RAE would answer the question posed here. If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to have the police there to break up any violations? Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 17:01:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, > rather than prevent or break up violations? Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places, including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report* to the authorities a violation of *their* rules. Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not yours. So it's very different from RAE's case. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mgluck at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:45:27 2020 From: mgluck at gmail.com (mgluck at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> References: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <027501d603f2$89d05870$9d710950$@gmail.com> R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... ---- R' MB: I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? --------- IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing doesn't make him tahor either, according to that. KT, MYG From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:40:46 2020 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well > known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa > hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon > Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom > Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many > Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." > > Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei > Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or > whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei > Ashkenaz. > The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the latter option would seem to be correct. > > But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. > The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under those circumstances. > > But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a > regular basis? > Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice. ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less widespread. IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let alone the end of maggid, are minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:06:34 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim Message-ID: . For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating, then do we really have permission to break the fast? Think about that for a moment. If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English, so it's HIS words, not my translation.) <<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>> Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:33:50 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:33:50 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns Message-ID: . When I was younger, the electric urns that we used for hot water on Shabbos were very simple: fill it, plug it in, and there was a valve for taking the water when you needed it. But many of the newer ones have various settings. Mine ( https://www.amazon.com/ProChef-SM300-35-Cup-Water-Shabbostat/dp/B07FK8KTZ6) for example, has three settings, called Regular, Shabbat, and Yom Tov. The manual gives the following explanation of the three settings: > Regular Mode: Keeps the water hot based on the water temperature > Shabbat Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer > Yom Tov Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer and is Halachically permissible to add cold water on Yom Tov Based on that explanation, this is my understanding: In Regular Mode, the thermostat is in full control; when the water gets too cool the heater will turn on until the correct temperature is reached, and then the heater turns off. In Shabbat and Yom Tov modes, the thermostat never responds to the water being too cool. Rather, every so often the timer will turn the heater on, and the thermostat will turn the heater off when the water is hot enough. So what's the difference between Shabbat Mode and Yom Tov mode? If I would use the Shabbat Mode on Yov Tov, is it assur to add water? If I would use the Yom Tov Mode on Shabbat, is there a problem? These are not theoretical questions. If we are still in Chutz Laaretz for this coming Pesach, we'll have a "three day yom tov", and I don't know which setting is preferable. Does anyone else know? Thank you! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Mar 29 10:15:09 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tefillah When Davening Alone Message-ID: Click here to download "Tefillah When Davening Alone" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 30 08:17:44 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:17:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato Message-ID: Please see https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:04 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Announcing Geshem Message-ID: . In Dec 2011, in the thread "Announcing Tal Umatar", I asked why halacha demands such critical announcements for starting and stopping the prayer for Geshem, yet no formal announcements at all for starting and stopping Tal Umatar. I got no response at all. I asked the same question again in Oct 2015, in the thread "Announcing Geshem". This time I did get one response, from R' Micha Berger, who wrote: > Well, it does make sense to me that baqashos have a level of > personalization that we do not find in shevach. I can insert > whatever baqashos I want to add for birkhas hashanim, so things > are more fluid there. > > My question is more your first one -- why must shevach be communal? > Not making up your own adjectives for G-d, I understand; but even > if I were to switch without everyone in the qehillah doing so yet > (because of the lack of announcement), I wouldn't be doing that... His answer seems very similar to what I found in a teshuva from Rav Hershel Schachter, https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950285/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-9-hallel-on-pesach-night-and-tefillas-tal/ released just yesterday, on how we should handle the switchover this coming Pesach, when most of us will have no effective tzibur for the announcement. The brackets are mine, parentheses are Rav Schachter's. > There is a big difference between She'eila (V'sen Tal Umatar > Livracha) and Hazkara (Mashiv Haruach). See what I wrote in > the name of our Rav [Soloveitchik] in MiPeninei HaRav (section > Tefila, number 5), that changing the descriptions of Hashem > (from Mashiv Haruach to Morid Hatal) requires Reshus Hatzibur, > and an individual is not allowed to make changes on his own. So to answer *my* question, Tefilas Geshem and Tefilas Tal are not informational. They don't simply inform us about the change, they *authorize* the change. And that authorization is not needed in Barech Aleinu. And to answer RMB's question, I'd suggest learning that section of MiPeninei HaRav. (Rav Schachter did give his views there about what we should do in our private Musafs this coming yom tov, but I need to learn it a few more times, and understand it better, before I comment on it.) Akiva Miller Stay Home - Save Lives . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:20:34 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] roll your own Message-ID: An oleh one Thursday (hopefully we will be back in shul soon) morning insisted on reading his own aliyah. I was surprised that the gabbai/Rabbi did not waive him off (given the reason individual olim stopped reading was so as not to embarrass others). Is this at all common? KT and Be Well Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:21:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ukimtas Message-ID: When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara(e.g. the gemara really was dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 2 13:37:43 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: >From today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? A. The Steipler Gaon (Orchos Rabbeinu 2:57) writes that one who studies Gemara or any other subject cannot make a siyum unless one understood the subject matter. The learning need not be with great depth. It is enough that one learns the p?shat (simple understanding). Many poskim hold that this is true even if one did not study the Gemara with Rashi or any other commentary. Sefer Ohr L?Tzion (3:12, ha?arah 1) writes that even if one might have missed a few lines here or there, they can still make a siyum. Similarly, he writes that although when one learns Torah one must vocalize every word (or listen to each word from a chavrusa), but if one occasionally learned by reading the words in one?s mind, one may still make a siyum. One can make a siyum even if one learns a short Masechta such as Tamid or Horiyos, and even if it was studied out of order. Rav Elyashiv, zt?l (Doleh Umashkeh, p. 318:3) held that one person must learn the entire Masechta and it cannot be divided up among a group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sat Jan 4 18:20:44 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: That?s a question which I have always wondered about. The way I see it is the same as taking a test and either passing or failing. If you and I take a test and you get 100 and I get a 60 (assuming that is the passing grade), then I have at least passed. Therefore, I see the same as learning. We both can have learned B?rochos and you know it by heart with all of the m?forshim, and I have learned it enough to get a passing grade so therefore I feel I would have the right to make a siyyum. However, I would look upon your siyyum as more noteworthy (however you wish to interpret that). From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 5 10:41:22 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: <0A849E37-7BD7-45AA-9C73-83FC0FE25429@cox.net> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry is Scripture's way of conveying the conviction that the formative age in Israel's history was not a series of haphazard incidents but the fulfillment of God's grand design??" Avraham lived for 175 years Yitzchok for 180 years Ya'akov for 147years. These numbers form an ordered and symmet- rical series: 7 x 5 squared = 175 (Abraham) 5 x 6 squared = 180 (Isaac) 3 x 7 squared = 147 (Jacob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Tue Jan 7 06:53:14 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:53:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] downloads available.. Message-ID: <134f01d5c56a$313b9010$93b2b030$@touchlogic.com> A coffee drinker's guide to Shabbos micro ground coffee / drip coffee / French press / using timer OUD creamer. do you have to wait 6 hrs till using.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/62kukx9q3ybjs4f/A%20coffee%20drinker%27s%20guide%2 0to%20Shabbos.docx?dl=0 2500 quick English psakim from R Shlomo Miller shlita https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 7 14:12:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? Message-ID: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> From a post: On the one hand, a frustrating element of arbitrariness surrounds umbrella use on Shabbos. Why do we act strictly on this issue, which is hotly debated among authorities, while acting leniently on other disputed issues? God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident. On the other hand, like an individual, a community is defined in part by its past. We cannot change how we got to where we are, our communal evolution through history. As halakhah evolves--within boundaries, of course--we cannot turn back the clock without destabilizing the system. Me: ?God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident.? I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening in ch?ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation) ? Your thoughts? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 04:12:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> Message-ID: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 10:12:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > "God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical > accident." I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories > told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening > in ch"ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at > least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation)? Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a factor in choosing which. After all, we allow for G-d's Will including 49 ways letamei and 49 ways letaheir, and letting humans decide which way of approaching the Truth is necessary for the situation we're in. What I am proposing is more limited than Historical School. With no parallel to some travesty like assigning personal or political motives to a ruling. I am saying that the strengths and weaknesses of how the masses are relating to halakhah itself are historical realities halakhah must account for. Also, to be complete although the issue isn't pragmatic any more -- gezeiros. If you do not believe that Chazal saw where practice *happened to* need shoring up at their moment in time, the decision to make a gezeira to avoid one risk and not a different one seems kind of arbitary at times. I have to believe they were responding to which mistakes were actually being made, or at least mistaken attitudes gaining currnecy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:03:38 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200108200338.GA3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 7:12am EST I replied to RJR: > Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu > va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a > factor in choosing which. This reminds me of another question RJR (was it RJR or is my memory playing tricks?) asked years ago about Goedel's Theorem. Halakhah is immune from Goedel's Theorem: Halakhah on the Divrei Elokim Chaim / dialectic level allows for Eilu veEilu. THere is no Law of Contradiciton, A and not-A can both be Torah, so Goedel's proof fails. Halakhah lemaaseh is not a closed formal system, because -- as I am arguing in this thread -- history matters. It's not a clean room exercise detatched from the realia the poseiq and sho'el/alim are living in. More info from the outside can influence the answer. It's not the kind of system math is, so Goedel's proof fails here too. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:10:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200108201057.GB3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 07:14:21AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: >> We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them >> as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, >> it should be done by example. > Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" > (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish > human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner > consistent with the will of HKB"H... In R' Wolbe's essay titled "Frumkeit" (Alei Shur vol II, available at ), he quotes the Alter of Slabodka as saying "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." The frum person is the one who makes sure to have Shabbos guests each week, but whose guests end up feeling much like his tefillin -- an object with which he did a mitzvah. A person acting out of frumkeit doesn't love to love, he loves in order to be a holier person. And ironically, he thereby fails -- because he never develops that Image of the Holy One he was created to become. The person who acts from self-interest, even from the interest of ascending closer to G-d, will not reach Him. (Taken from my blog post at .) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Thus excellence is not an event, Author: Widen Your Tent but a habit. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aristotle From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 9 11:45:06 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 19:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? Message-ID: >From today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? A. If a person owns their home, they are obligated to put mezuzos on the door as soon as they occupy the home (see Gilyon Maharsha YD 286:22). At what point is one considered an occupant? If one moves furniture and other belongings into a home, but has not actually started living in the house, there is a dispute between the poskim whether a mezuzah is required. The Chovas Hadar (13, footnote 10) assumes there is an obligation, while Rabbi Aharon Felder, in Oholei Yeshurun (page 6, fn 69) quotes other poskim who say the mitzvah begins only when one resides in the home. Shulchan Aruch (YD 236:22) rules that if one rents a house or apartment in the Diaspora, the requirement to put up mezuzos begins after 30 days have elapsed ? on the 31st day (the day of the move counts as day one, even if it is only a partial day.) The Derech Chaim disagrees and maintains that if the lease is for more than 30 days, the obligation to post mezuzos begins immediately. Though most poskim agree with the Shulchan Aruch that there is no obligation to post a mezuzah within 30 days under all circumstances, nonetheless the Magen Avrohom suggests that it is permissible to put a mezuzah on the wall during the first thirty days and recite a bracha. By doing so, the opinion of the Derech Chaim will be covered. The Nachalas Tzvi (286:22) objects to the suggestion of the Magen Avrohom and maintains that the bracha cannot be recited before the mitzvah is obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein (YD 1:179) offers a solution that covers all bases. He recommends putting up the mezuzos (to satisfy the opinion of the Derech Chaim) without a bracha (in deference to the Nachalas Tzvi). After 30 days the mezuzos should be removed, or at least slightly pushed, and then a bracha is required. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 10 06:22:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Askara In-Reply-To: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> References: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200110142208.GA29555@aishdas.org> Talmudology is a blog by R Jeremy Brown on science and gemara, following the daf yomi. (His wife is the known author on Torah topics, Dr Erica Brown.) In this installment, for Berakhos 8a (tomorrow's daf) http://www.talmudology.com/jeremybrownmdgmailcom/2020/1/8/berachot-8a-what-is-askera-and-why-does-it-kill-you or http://bit.ly/36EBBHy RJB rules out the usual translation of "askara" as "croup", since even in their day it wasn't likely to be fatal. Instead, he finds that diphtheria, epiglottitis and quincy fit the gemara's description and suggests it was one of those. Adding another suggestion we're discussed here during the omer in years past: R Sheira Gaon (She'iltos 1:1) says "askara" refers to the sicarii, literally: daggers, but the name was given to the dagger-bearing class of Roman soldiers. His context is the death of R' Aqiva's students by askara; he says they died at the Romans' hands. But, to quote Koren's translation of the gemara, minus the word "croup": [Askara] is like a thorn entangled in a wool fleece, which, when pulled out backwards, tears the wool. Some say that [askara] is like ropes at the entrance to the esophagus, which would be nearly impossible to insert and excruciating to remove. I cannot believe R' Sherira Gaon didn't have an answer for the description in this gemara. Maybe askara is an actual illness that in that one story was being used euphemistically? Or maybe the Romans took to shechting or garroting their victims, r"l? :-)BBii! -Micha PS: Below is a very helpful signature quote, for those of us who spend a lot of time "talking" about things online. -- Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every http://www.aishdas.org/asp argument and to always be right. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Nassan of Breslav - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Likutei Tefilos 94:964 From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 05:52:08 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: > Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." < One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 14 08:32:32 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Adopting Outside the Community Message-ID: <20200114163231.GA17990@aishdas.org> In , or https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/politics-current-affairs/2020/01/why-orthodox-jews-have-been-hesitant-to-adopt-outside-their-community-and-why-they-shouldnt-be/ Malka Groden ("a domestic-adoption advocate in the American Jewish community") writes and article titled: Why Orthodox Jews Have Been Hesitant to Adopt Outside Their Community, and Why They Shouldn't Be I am posting to Avodah because I am including her summaries of points made by RMMS (about the duty to raise nitzotzos, including those in non-Jews) and by RYBS (from Family Redeemed about natural vs covenantal parenthood). And afterwood, the thoughts I had on the subject of adopting non-Jews, developing since the days when we did. ... There is, however, one group of American Jews who are indeed marrying young, having children, and building families deeply connected to Jewish communal infrastructure through synagogues, schools, and a broad range of support organizations. That group comprises both the Charedim and the [M]odern Orthodox... In recent decades, indeed, the Orthodox world has become adept at devising arrangements in support of individuals and families going through life's most significant challenges: medical crises, infertility, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, and more. The organization In Shifra's Arms, for example, supports, emotionally, practically, and financially, Jewish women facing unplanned pregnancies; for another example, the Jewish Children's Adoption Network has placed thousands of Jewish babies with special needs in Jewish homes nationwide. But there's the rub: float within Orthodox precincts any suggestion of becoming involved with the issue of foster care and adoption in the larger society, and the initial response will likely be, "But those children aren't Jewish. Why is this a Jewish cause?" ... [The Lubavitcher] Rebbe taught that Jews are tasked with revealing not only their own "divine spark" but also the divine spark that resides within each human being, Jew and non-Jew alike. Thus, among Chabad's initiatives was a campaign to include, at the start of each day in the nation's public schools, a moment of silence during which all children would have an opportunity to contemplate their own purpose and responsibilities. Similarly, the Rebbe pushed for criminal-justice reform--stressing that those incarcerated must be given the chance for rehabilitation so that they too can return to their God-given mission in life--at a time when this issue did not command the broad consensus it enjoys today. Both of these projects, geared simultaneously toward Jews and the broader community, reflected the Rebbe's firmly activist view of the essential worth of each human being. With a proper moral foundation and education, he held, every individual, however highly or humbly situated, has the potential to grow and reveal his or her own divine spark. It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home. Meanwhile, Rabbi Soloveitchik, coming at the issue from his own direction, devoted an entire volume of essays, Family Redeemed, to the theme of family relationships. In one of these essays, he describes two forms of parenthood. The first form, "natural parenthood," is represented by Adam and Eve. The motherhood of Eve is instinctual and all-consuming; her entire being is involved, through the nine months of pregnancy and onward through the physical and biological demands of childbirth and child rearing. For Adam, by contrast, fathering a child makes no biological claims at all; after the child's birth, he is free to act exactly as he did before. With Abraham and Sarah, a new form--"covenantal" or "redeemed" parenthood--is revealed. For the first time, fatherhood demands something of men: Abraham must serve as an educator, molding his children and the next generation. In this mission, Sarah, the redeemed mother, joins him as partner and essential link in the transmission of the covenant. Separate from the biological demands made on her as a mother, motherhood takes on a larger ethical meaning to which she in turn makes a free commitment. At the start of the Jewish people's history, God confers on the first foremother and forefather the chance to move beyond the innate ties of biology and assume a trans-generational mission. ... By learning from the remarkable work done by American Christians, and by actualizing the core Jewish mission through the redemptive power of the Jewish family, American Jews can begin to help bring healing to a generation of children wounded and forgotten. I am not a huge fan of focusing on the need for homes as a motive for adoption. I am afraid of too many children being taken on as chessed projects rather than letting a normal parent-child relationship develop. But let me focus on Avodah material. If someone wants to adopt in order to continue their mimetic line, (along with the joys and the aggravations of parenting -- kind of like gilu bir'adah) the halakhos are simpler and cleaner when adopting a non-Jewish child. The giyur will be al daas beis din, and the parents are apitrupusei beis din. There is actually a halachically recognized tie between parents and adopted child, and the chinukh you provide is a chiyuv. (Not the chiyuv of "veshinantam levanekha", but still, a chiyuv.) That said, I still think aniyei irekha qodmin -- as long as there are Jewish children to be found, in today's climate of Open Adoption the halachic issues are generally resolvable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair: http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while, Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:32:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) Message-ID: My comment on a hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) shiur: imho an example of trying to codify something that is primarily mimetic. 100 shiurim can't take the place of role models who demonstrate how to know when it will be accepted and how time and place define when to dig in your heels on what issues. Also how you evaluate the impact on the individual vs. the community. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:35:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:35:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hedgehog? Message-ID: On R' Gil Perl's hedgehog piece https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ : I would agree that if MO's goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys' rabbeim's question as to why I just didn't put on a black hat ,is that I just don't think it's what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 20th century) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t613k at aol.com Tue Jan 14 22:42:12 2020 From: t613k at aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> In Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1 dated 1/4/2020? >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinksthat the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... <>>> This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against Orthodox Jews for 200 years.? But this accusation is simply not true.? We Orthodox Jews should not internalize the false image that our enemies have of us.? This belief that our enemies are right about us reflects a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.? Since we are all human beings, of course we all have our faults.? But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <>? In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim? --Toby Katzt613k at aol.com ============= ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 15 05:39:53 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <> --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com I would simply say community should be judged by the following ???- Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying.-Ralph Waldo Emerson Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 06:23:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] =?iso-8859-1?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Adam=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200115142357.GA30570@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 06:42:12AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote: >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, >> thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... > > This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against > Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against > Orthodox Jews for 200 years... And the Semag made against us 700 yearts ago, in asei #74. In explaining why, lemaaseh, one does have to return an aveidas aku"m, he writes , tr. mine so see it in the original at the link: I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain and the rest of Goliyos Edom that now that the exile has gone on far too long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of the world and grab onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not commit sin, do not speak lies, and one won't find a false tongue in their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them, the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People] for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesn't plant a kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One, blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves with trickery, who will attach to them? And R Breuer, 69 years ago, wrote "`Glatt Kosher -- Glatt Yoshor" because he felt a need to remind people that the latter is more important than the former (translation via RYL). To give just the closing: We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for "Glatt Kosher" with an equally intensive one for "Glatt Yoshor." This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13): "The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." As for the wonderful things our community does, a couple of theories: While my negative stereotype is truer than RnTK will admit to herself, it is still just a generalization. The number of people running and participating in those gema"chs, bikur cholim, the chevrah.... they don't total anywhere near half of us. Second, there is just being a religious community. Compare ourselves to another Middle or Upper-Middle class religious community. Look at chessed among actual aku"m like the Mormons. And yet we have the Emes! And we have a system that shapes our lives to inclucate that Emes, from what we eat to how we put on our shoes! Third, bein adam lachaveiro also has a BALM aspect, and we do see signs that it is that aspect that drives much of the chessed. Like the numerous articles by BT, singles, people who rely on Shabbos hospitality, who so often leave feeling like they served as an esrog, a cheftza shel mitzvah. The Alter of Slabodka says something related, about the lishmah of BALC (found quoted in Alei Shur vol II, tr. mine): "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning, http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to Author: Widen Your Tent mend." - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Jan 15 05:56:18 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira Message-ID: <006801d5cbab$90687a70$b1396f50$@touchlogic.com> https://lehavin.org/ At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both topics and keyword searches From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Jan 15 11:27:46 2020 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: <6757A82F-25CA-46D9-A1F0-1C001AA62A5B@tenzerlunin.com> I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh, brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore BALC in the face of BALM. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:56 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: R'n TK writes: "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?" R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Indeed, there is the rub. We learn one thing, but how much do we practice? Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters. An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring home to the shabbos table, and what-not. It was a terrific program. (I have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome -- see https://projectderech.org/). My kids, B"H, are still positively effected by that program. I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15 years ago or so (IIRC) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:55:44 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha Message-ID: R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted? But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha will NOT be accepted? Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until that standard is met the duty remains. We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands of sheep, stole this one sheep etc. The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous. In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even though they did not seek his forgiveness? as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct. Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all circumstances to be a Chassid? Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch. One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national history. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 19:00:45 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are > shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many > questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon > harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? Other illustrations: 1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha. And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff. This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus. 3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by self-identifying as "frum". Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And which one isn't given kibudim in shul? 3- Newspaper headlines. Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that impression, although most boys do. And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust. So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know I was the exception. 4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there. And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro. Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are middos seen as an end in themselves? 5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!" That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut the line in and of itself, doesn't work. And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe http://www.aishdas.org/asp you can be certain of improving, Author: Widen Your Tent and that's your own self. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aldous Huxley From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 18:40:35 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tochachah until when? Message-ID: <20200116024035.GA7698@aishdas.org> So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6) who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9 . I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else. So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo? How do these two issues shtim together? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 17 09:42:58 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro In-Reply-To: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> References: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200117174258.GA9251@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: >> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are >> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many >> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon >> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? > Other illustrations: Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was triggered. The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael". There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos) which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment): Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t) See a daf image at https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_36079_73.pdf or http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2864&size=2 It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions, nor even Sefaria (see "No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")! :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 18 16:53:29 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo Message-ID: <20200119005329.GA12632@aishdas.org> Times of Israel or https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-at-shiloh-archaeologist-finds-artifacts-hinting-at-biblical-tabernacle/ As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including in full): Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh Jan. 17 2020 According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio, 33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.) https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/742731340&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true -micha From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 19 12:53:49 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question Message-ID: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 19 08:26:56 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? Message-ID: Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father, and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says -- that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These [...] From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 19 22:20:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? _______________________________________________ IMHO 1. Make sure the ba'al kore gets proper medical treatment 2. clean up any mess 3. if the ba'al kore can't continue, get a substitute Now if the oleh is the one bleeding, it's probably a bigger issue. See S"A O"C 140 KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Jan 20 04:48:53 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200120124853.GB13148@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 03:53:49PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > A colleague asked me the following question and I had > no answer. > If the ba'al kore is reading the Torah and either has a > nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer > to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? RJR focused on the leining. But I saw the question as being more about the kashrus of the Torah with the blood on it. Ink spills, which are actually black, do not invalidate a sefer Torah -- as long as the letters remain intact. Now that I think of it, although I do not remember this case in the AhS -- maybe also as long as the ink itself doesn't look like an inserted letter? Blood that is red or brown could invalidate a letter too. Or so I am deducing from the case of black letters that had gold painted on top of them (eg in an attempt to glorify Hashem's name) -- the gold has to be removed. So it seems you have to see the black ink. But I do not think any of my speculation about added letters would apply. And in any case, it should be cleaned up simply out of respect for the Torah. ---- I also had thoughts about tum'ah. And so I wrote the below. But I don't think the blood in either scenario (nose bleed or paper cut) is tamei even to begin with. Struck me after I wrote it, in comparison to dam niddah. Still, I invested time, and there are things in it that might inform, so I didn't delete. There is a derabbanan to treat a seifer Torah as if it were tamei. This was to prevent a practice that became commonplace, that of storing all the holy things together. But rodents would come to eat the terumah, and naw on any scrolls nearby. But once they told the masses that the seifer Torah is not only tamei, but can be metamai one's hands too much for handling terumah, that ended. However, a seifer Torah cannot really become tamei. All of this is about treating it as though tamei. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, http://www.aishdas.org/asp if only because it offers us the opportunity of Author: Widen Your Tent self-fulfilling prophecy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Arthur C. Clarke From rabbiknopf at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:12:57 2020 From: rabbiknopf at yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> I've read this recent discussion with great interest. Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious community. I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's?What You Don?t Know About the Ultra-Orthodox - Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other articles:?Values and Religiosity?and?Charitable Giving Among Britain's Jews. And see also this page from?The Jewish Mind. With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a genuine problem (and therefore a challenge). I think it is true that fewer sheilos are asked in bein adam lechavero. I agree that both the occurrence and the communal reaction to scandals in bein adam lechavero are telling and disconcerting.? As Rabbi Berger acknowledges, there are different approaches within our mesorah in understanding the place of bein adam lechavero. Which ever approach one takes, there is room for much more serious thought as to how to reduce the gap between values and communal practice. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:09 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:13:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority Message-ID: A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a)remains silent or (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth 1. What percentage of people would take each course? (orthodox vs. non? 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:48:14 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero In-Reply-To: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200128214814.GD29555@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote: > Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the > frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't > simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious > community. > > I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About > the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other > articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's > Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind. > > With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a > genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)... I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest. What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox is at or https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/what-you-dont-know-about-the-ultra-orthodox/ From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:45:28 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128214528.GC29555@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until > that standard is met the duty remains. > > We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to > many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's > the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds > are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts > to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to > succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which > Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal). So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without the help of finding sources. The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the pasuq: Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha velo savo alav cheit. (The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for how you perceive what they did to you.) However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So, the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them into meizidim means you can't do it. But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how. That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty, even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or someone who hears the story will be influenced. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 14:20:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder) only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so we're talking about 1.8 oz. The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk. HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so. Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot. Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with te'imah. Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which "fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is. The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:35:55 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128213555.GA29555@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote: >> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." > One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and > loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. To me shilush refers to the human condition. When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face. Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.) The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3. Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz. Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give. The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others. The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above. Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:53:07 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128215307.GE29555@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony > that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or > (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth ... > 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif they did, the testimony is void? Li nir'eh: We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma. And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 29 11:53:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> References: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200129195327.GD10165@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com When we discussed this topic a decade ago (10-Oct-2009), R/Dr Prof Levine pointed us to a copy he kept of an article by R/Dr Ari Zivotofsky at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf Tir'u baTov! -Micha From sholom at aishdas.org Sun Feb 2 11:43:54 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Which parsha...? Message-ID: <1580762914542.2f7d92c33c16fe9c@aishdas.org> Someone in shul mused to me that parshas Ve'eria sure had a whole lot of mentions of H's name, and was wondering if that parsha had more mentions than any other parsha. I told him: I don't know, but I have some ideas on who/where to ask! Thoughts? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 4 19:14:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 03:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? Message-ID: In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 5 08:04:04 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ce3160-8d3b-c3a9-9e5d-e781c8bd03c7@sero.name> On 4/2/20 10:14 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R?Gil Student wrote about R?C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? According to the Rosh, at least, the minhag of most (nowadays all) Chu"l communities saying tal umatar as if they were in Iraq is mistaken, and he tried his best to change it in Spain, but faced such massive opposition that he gave up and accepted the status quo. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 5 09:57:59 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE Message-ID: This morning while shopping I noted that many types of Arnold's bread now bear on OU DE instead of OU Pareve. The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Q. Is one permitted to bake DE (Dairy Equipment) bread? For example, may one bake bread on a baking pan that was previously used to bake cheese danishes? A. (The OU recently focused on this issue, as a major bread manufacturer certified by the OU requested authorization to produce OU-DE certified bread. Click here to read Rabbi Genack?s extensive teshuva on this topic.) The Pischei Teshuva (YD 97:5) rules that bread baked on dairy equipment may be consumed. He reasons that as follows: Chazal (Pesachim 46a) forbade eating dairy bread as a gezaira (a prohibitive measure), lest one forgets the dairy status of the bread and consumes it with meat. This concern is valid when the bread contains actual dairy ingredients. However, when the bread is baked on dairy equipment, the bread is technically pareve according to the Rama, but as a chumra (an extra stringency), the bread may not be eaten with meat. Bidi?eved (after the fact), the Rama agrees that DE bread mixed with meat may be consumed. The possibility that one might not remember the status of DE bread is much less of a concern than for bread that contains actual dairy, and therefore there is no restriction on consuming DE bread. This reasoning is valid according to the Rama (95:2) who allows DE items mixed with meat bidi?eved. However, the Shach (quoted in a previous Halacha Yomis) rules that pareve items baked or roasted on dairy equipment are fully dairy and may not be consumed with meat even bidi?eved. Accordingly, the Shach would forbid all consumption of DE bread. As previously noted, many poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan (95:12), are not in agreement with the Shach. We will now address the second question about bread baked on a cheese danish pan. Are pans used to bake cheese danish treated as dairy? Interestingly, this depends on how the danish was prepared. If the cheese remained inside the dough, the pan would not have the status of actual dairy, and bread baked on the pan can be eaten with pareve or dairy foods. However, if the cheese leaked out of the danish onto the pan, the Shach would consider the pan to be actual dairy even bidi?eved, and bread baked subsequently would be forbidden. ___________________________________________ Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:41:50 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim Message-ID: Questions from (another) guy in my shul: On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is trying to annul or alleviate. (And either the P"Y, or R Rosner, suggest that perhaps this is why when a crisis is facing the community, we engage in tefilla and/or recitation of tehillim). (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the chiddush in that? Do I need R Eazar to tell me that? Or, perhaps R Elazar is saying: you can do all the ma'asim tovim you want, but without tefilla, it's not going to help? But I digress....) That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. Is there any intersection of thought -- is there any influence or stira -- of R Elazar's statements to this order of words? And why does R Elazar seemingly ignore teshuva? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:43:55 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good place to ask ;-) Thoughts, anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 5 18:59:15 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 02:59:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E809B88-1E18-4EBE-84F2-BA7F5BC94544@Segalco.com> Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. -/?????????? Some context is important. As I understand it for many years the OU Used the DE designation and then changed policy because they thought it was too confusing. This led to a time Where they fielded many questions (maybe unofficially? )about what the D really meant and many people used products as if they were DE. Now apparently they?ve gone back to issuing the DE. I think a consumer awareness campaign would be worthwhile I personally prefer having the DE designation available so that people don?t just decide on their own based on the ingredients. Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:08:01 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206200801.GA20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:43:55AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for > us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did > H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good > place to ask ;-) Well, if you don't take Bereishis 1 as history, or you believe in Omphalism ("the universe was created old, as though it all happened" -- RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements. The universe's size also is an effect of the kind of Inflation and Big Bang we had, or H' made a universe as thought we had. The same thing that set up many other things in physics, and is subject to our laws of physics. Which in turn would mean that to have the physics we do, we would need a universe of a certain size. (Or a universe that was obviously created in a "puff" of neis.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:24:09 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206202409.GB20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:41:50AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, > and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's > talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers > that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is > trying to annul or alleviate... Which fits the context; the gemara is talking about Moshe davening to come to EY. > (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with > tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the > chiddush in that? ... So the Penei Yeoshua tell you to look in the Maharsha and the Mahari Pinto, who ask just your question -- of course T + MT > T. And also, why go to Moshe who excelled at everything, not the clearest maqor for this kind of comparison. The PY only gives his own answer -- obviously the sekhar of MT is greater, as they involve many mitzvos. Even if tefillah is deOraisa, which he notes is unclear. Rather, it is specifically WRT getting out of a gezeira ra'ah. Barukh shekivanta! My reaction: We're talking about Moshe level davening, and it's still not enough without maasim tovim?! The Ben Yehoyada (ad loc) says that the intent is Avos 5:21, "kol hamzakeh es harabim, tekhus harabim talui bo". So the gemara is saying that the tefillah of someone with maasim tovim is greater than the maasim tovim in and of their own zekhuyos. > That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana > Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. And the next line in the gemara is R Elazar saying that taanis is greater than tzedaqah -- because it is done with his body, and tzedaqah is done with his money. Remember the Machzorim that have the words tzom, qol, mamon over teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, and they're all there. Tzom is a maaseh associated with teshuvah. BUT... The next line after that, also R Elazar, says that tefillah is greater that qorbanos. If the gemara were working with teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, this quote wouldn't be here, it breaks the symbolism. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:33:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206203333.GC20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 03:14:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue > I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue > since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were > all holy) There are at least two ways you can ascribe importance to mimetic precedent, whether minhag or accepted pesaq, or any other of the looser usages of the word "minhag": 1- "Im lo neviim heim benei neviim heim" or "she'reis Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" mean that there is siyata diShmaya involved in what Jews end up doing. And thus Retzon haBorei blesses such practices. (In some way that doesn't violate lo bashamayim hi. Just as a poseiq's siyata diShmaya doesn't.) 2- The lack of rabbinic objection shows that generations of rabbanim found textual support for the practice. Which would rule out practices where we have a record of rabbinic protests. I brought up #2 in the early days of Avodah, when R/Dr Meir Shinnar used a mimetic argument to prove that sei'ar be'ishah ervah is das Yehudis and changes with the fashion. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I want to do it." - is weak. Author: Widen Your Tent "I am doing it." - that is the right way. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 05:00:41 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] New Haggada Available Message-ID: A new edition is now available of my "Achieving Immortality - A Haggada for Re-Experiencing the Exodus". My main goal in this Haggada is to avoid anything that would distract us from "seeing ourselves as if we left Egypt ourselves." For example, the peirushim are incorporated into the translation and instructions, rather than being relegated to the bottom of the page. Extensive footnotes for supplementary material are accessible on the bottom of each page, but for the seder itself they are in the back of the book, to be less distracting. It is available online at Lulu.com, where anyone can find it by searching for the title and/or my name. It is available in three bindings: hardcover, paperback, and a coil-bound version (which is my family's favorite because it lies flat with no effort, so yet another distraction is avoided). All three have the exact same 200-page interior. SPECIAL HALF-PRICE pricing for Avodah readers is available if you use these links: Softcover $5.97 at https://tinyurl.com/SoftcoverHaggada Coilbound $7.47 at https://tinyurl.com/CoilboundHaggada Hardcover $12.97 at https://tinyurl.com/HardcoverHaggada (plus tax and shipping, obviously) You can often get it even cheaper! Lulu often (but usually only from Monday to Thursday) offers coupon codes that you can use when you check out and pay. You can go to Lulu.com and look for the popup notice, or you can try the frequently-offered codes LULU10 (for 10% off) or ONEFIVE (for 15% off). If you'd like to see a sample of this Haggada, to better judge how much my style fits yours, you can download a 25-page sample at https://www.dropbox.com/s/eizebhfa5qtfpwo/Haggada%202020%20Excerpts.pdf?dl=0 or https://tinyurl.com/v27cwtt Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 17:41:39 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:41:39 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Joel Rich asked Message-ID: < BL0PR02MB37454F2E5D8D2B1D2559773EBF020 at BL0PR02MB3745.namprd02.prod.outlook.com > Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hankman at bell.net Thu Feb 6 21:01:17 2020 From: hankman at bell.net (hank) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 00:01:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: <20200207050117.JFSZ16482.mtlspm02.bell.net@[IPv6:::ffff:192.168.2.56]> RMB wrote: ?RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements.? That is plausible for stars within our galaxy, but not for the billions of stars in billions of galaxies far outside the milkyway galaxy. Those heavy elements could never reach us in this galaxy. Should we postulate intelligent beings in each of those distant galaxies with their own relationship to G-d for whom their stars supply heavy elements to? Kol tuv, Chaim Manaster Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Fri Feb 7 07:43:50 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/20 8:41 pm, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > > But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the > repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - > one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. 1. As I understand it he succeeded, within his area of influence, and chazarat hashatz disappeared for several centuries, until at least the Radvaz's times. (Though his takana was only for Shacharit/Musaf on Shabbat, and for Mincha only if it was getting late.) 2. More importantly it's not an example of this phenomenon because it was *not* an incorrect minhag. Not even the Rambam claimed it was incorrect. The Rambam simply thought a new problem had arisen, which required a new takanah invoking eit laasot to override this correct minhag. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From meirabi at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 17:37:26 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:37:26 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - Talking During Tefillah, That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Zev Message-ID: suggested that RaMBaM, at least within his area of influence, succeeded in cancelling the Chazoras HaShaTz, and we assume also thereby reduced the talking during Tefillah. However, during the Radvaz's times, Ch HaShaTz was reintroduced which only reinforces the notion that Mistaken Minhagim, even if they can be temporarily abated, cannot be stopped Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinlbrody at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 21:49:16 2020 From: martinlbrody at gmail.com (Martin Brody) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:49:16 -0800 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minchagim.... Message-ID: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Cheers, Martin Brody "Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazze Meir G. Rabi From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Tue Feb 11 01:17:50 2020 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:17:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 10, 2020 02:03:22 pm Message-ID: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Talking during prayer is not a minhag. It is a hanhagah (Hebrew, like every language, has nuanced near-synonyms in matters of importance to its speakers). Jews do not talk during prayer thinking "this is how Jews should conduct themselves", or even "this is how Jews conduct themselves", and those cognitions are part of the definition of the word "minhag". The original poster asked for mistaken minhagim, which originated in the hamon `am, and which were subsequently tolerated by the scholarly class. Talking during prayer is not a mistaken minhag, because it is not a minhag at all. A minhag that satisfies the original poster's question -- as has already been pointed out by another contributor to this mailing list -- is praying for rain, not when you need rain, but when the people of Iraq need rain. Other minhagim that satisfy the original poster's question are wearing costumes on Purim, or not cutting a boy's hair till he is three years old. And there are numerous other idolatrous practices and superstitions that are found among Jews, like tugging your ear after you sneeze, or not walking over a baby, and if you do walk over a baby, then walking backwards over the baby to undo the walking forwards. If you read classic Yiddish literature, you will learn many minhagim regarding sickness which clearly belong to the category of "halloxesh `al hammakkah" but which were nearly universal among the Jews depicted in that literature, and which are not condemned by the Yiddish-speaking scholarly class even now. The practice of not eating kitniyyoth (deliberately left untranslated) on Passover also originated in the hamon `am, and was later ratified, and even codified, by the scholarly class, but I would abolish it if I could, because, inter alia, it makes it more expensive to observe Passover, and God cares about the property of His people. There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An example of this category is the practice of earning a living from teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. An even more odious example is the practice of "kollel", which involves paying people, not even to teach Torah, but just to learn it. This is not only prohibited by Jewish law, but also condemned in the strongest terms; yet the scholarly class have taken a prohibition, and turned it into a commandment, because it benefits them. A third example is draft exemptions for yeshiva students, even though -- as has been pointed out before on this mailing list -- the halakha clearly states that "bmilxemeth mitzva hakkol yotz'im, afilu xathan mixedro vkhallah mixupathah". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:43:23 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minhagim Message-ID: R' Martin Brody wrote: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Rambam's rejection can be distinguished from what we do now. The Rambam also held that we never change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta?am tachton, and so it appears we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with ta?am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, in which case it?s perfectly fine to stand. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:45:42 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah Message-ID: The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he does so here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Feb 11 10:20:47 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58288555-F618-4C81-866B-E853B664DA8C@cox.net> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who consistently stood for the entire leining. I would assume that was their minhag. The other thing I learned that many of my peers did not know and that was the halacha regarding whether you stand for the sh?ma or sit. The answer is if you are already sitting, you remain seated and conversely, if you are already standing, you remain standing. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 11 14:34:55 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should they daven? what else should they do?)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 14 08:25:30 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:25:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I typically eat only cholov Yisrael products. Accidentally, I bought a cereal that is labeled OU-D. I checked with the OU?s Webbe Rebbe (Kosherq at OU.org) and was told the cereal does not contain actual dairy, but it is made on dairy equipment. I opened the box, and I can no longer return it to the store. May I eat the cereal? A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot must be kashered before it is re-used. Nonetheless, there are various positions among poskim regarding food that was cooked in cholov akum pots in our contemporary times. The issue revolves around the current status of commercial milk. It is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l and other contemporary poskim held that the prohibition of cholov akum does not apply to commercial milk which is regulated and monitored by government agencies. Others reject this leniency. Still a third group are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As such, there are the following positions: * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position on commercial milk would obviously have no problem cooking in pots used for cholov stam. (Cholov stam is milk that was not supervised by a mashgiach, but was produced in a dairy that is monitored for purity by government inspectors.) * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a chumrah (stringency). This position is further split into two camps with respect to cholov stam keilim : Some are stringent only regarding actual cholov stam, but are lenient with respect to cholov stam keilim. This was the position of Rav Henkin, zt?l (Teshuvos Ivra 43). Others maintained the same stringency applies to keilim as well. Rav Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan HaLevi 22:5) writes that this was the position of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt?l. Nonetheless, one can argue that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would allow using a cholov stam pot that may have been unused for 24 hours. The basis for this is the Shach (YD 119:20) who writes that if a person has a chumra that his neighbor does not observe, he may still eat food that was cooked in his neighbors pot, so long as the food was not cooked specifically for him (i.e., the food was also cooked for those who are not strict), and it is not known if the pot was used in the past 24 hours. A similar argument can be made to permit the cereal in our original question, since it was already purchased, and it is not known if the equipment was used for dairy in the past 24 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 07:30:09 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] HALF A SHEKEL IS BETTER THAN NONE Message-ID: <29FD8EA8-0052-4B93-ACD1-422064094773@cox.net> As you know, this Shabbos is Shabbos Shekalim as well as Shabbos M'vorchim. I'm reminded of the Hazzan who was chanting the Rosh Chodesh Bentching and was very careful not to repeat words. But he had to fit the melody to the prayer so he sang ".....chayim she parnoso, chayim shel shekalim....." At least the uninformed realized it was Shabbos Shekalim. The Mishna Meg. 3:4 explains in the days of the monarchy, the shekel tax had become a permanent institution, and its proceeds together with other freewill offerings were used to maintain and repair the Temple (ll Kings 12:15-17; 22:3-7). Since the shekel tax was due on the first of Nisan, the Rabbis ordained that this section (30:11-16) be read as an added Torah portion about a month before: on the Shabbos before the new moon of Adar or on Rosh Chodesh itself, if it fell on Shabbos. Because of this added reading the Sabbath has become known as Shabbos Shekalim. (There is also a talmudic treatise called Shekalim). L?havdil, as a side, Christian Scriptures, Matthew 17:27, notes that Peter paid the tax for both himself and his master. The Zionist movement at its first congress (1897) revived the shekel as a common expression of support for Eretz Yisroel. The number of shekel holders became an indication of the strength of political Zionism. There were 165,000 in 1907 and in 1946 there were 2,160,000. In Yalkut Me'am Lo'ez. Sh?mos, Vol.lll, pp. 1068-1069, the question is asked why the sum chosen for expiation was fixed at one-half shekel (30:15). The reason was because Joseph had been sold into Egypt by his brothers for twenty dinars, i.e. five shekels. There being ten brothers, this amounted to a profit of one-half shekel for each. Another explanation: It was expiation for the sin of the golden calf. (Though this sin is told later, in chapter 32, the comment is based on the talmudic principle of Ein mukdam um'uchar baTorah. This same issue is raised in Mishpatim because Ch.24 shifts from the laws, that have been the subject of the Sidrah, back to the Revelation at Sinai. There is a machlokes among the m'forshim regarding when the events in this chapter took place. According to Rashi, the events recorded in verses 1-11 occurred before the Ten Commandments were given. Ramban, Ibn ezra, Rashbam, among others, maintain that these events took place after Israel had received the Ten Commandments and Moses had taught them the laws of the previous 3 chapters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 12:52:19 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 15:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag Message-ID: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> I?m not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until ?Im kesef talve.? And the second week is the second half. I don?t know which haftarah they use for the second week. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 17 20:52:17 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag In-Reply-To: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> References: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200218045217.GA2684@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 03:52:19PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely > a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot > read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until "Im > kesef talve." And the second week is the second half. I don't know which > haftarah they use for the second week. I had always wondered why the standard chapterization of the Seifer haChinukh starts a new parashash there. I was wondering if this was an actual minhag, or just a way to split up the 52 mitzvos that are in Mishpatim to more managable chapters. Now I know! Thanks. The Chinukh was written by R Aharon haLeci in Barcelona in the 13th cent. Although the chapterization may be far later, so I don't know what that says about the scope and evolution of that minhag. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 18 13:51:24 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim Message-ID: Heard in a daf yomi shiur -- R Sholom Rosner was: -- critical of minhag of oleh to not say birkas hatorah on tochacha -- critical of the minhag that women don't make a mezumin when they are three on their own; or, if with 10 men, not answering the mizumin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:23:05 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:23:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:25:46 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers Message-ID: I spent some time looking for commentaries explaining the focus on the donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers. I realize it's probably projection but I came up with two possibilities. The first was that many places the donkey seems to be taking somebody to their destiny (Think avraham Moshe bilaam......)I was thinking when they might've been concerned that they would be unable to fulfill theirs My other thought was that they represented technological extensions Of human ability ( think vcivshuha) And they would be unable to fulfill their human capabilities and be no more than another animal Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at chamor and saw chomer(material world) Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 20 11:11:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200220191100.GA15866@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:23:05AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: > But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? In terms of the tech, we're not close yet, and may never be. To weave a derashah into my explanation of that sentence, the word "binah" can refer to thought in at least two ways: - from "bein", the art of making distinctions -- bein qodesh lekhol, bein or lechoshekh... Being able to characterize this as an A, that as a B, this is spam, this is not spam. And when things are not separated: this A and B share features that would allow them to belong to the same font, whereas that A & B are in another. Finding the limits of sets, to know what to separate. That's what AI is now doing. Using what boils down to a lot of linear algebra to draw lines between sets using known examples of what's in and what's out. That can be obvious in cases of AI reading CT or MRI scans. But that is also how automous vehicles decide when to change lanes, accelerate, or whatnot. There are two sets: a right time and a wrong time. - from "binyan", the art of combining facts. Whether making deductions of the sort you did formally in Geomatry class, or inductions -- figuring out that those sets even exist. There is AI that does binyan-binah. It is very simple, generally just searching the space of possibilities until it hits sueccess (as defined for it). That's not what ML is about, and it's not where we are close to the commercial application. And may never be. Then there is informal thought. Conclusions you can only reach because you not only have a concept of red in your head, but you know what it is like to see red. (Apologies to the color blind for that example.) In terms of hashkafah... I argued that lo bashamayim hee has more to do with whose hands halakhh is in than whose it isn't. A pesaq can only come from someone who (to jump ahead to the end of the statement) "befikha ublivavkha la'asoso". Related to that knowing what red is *like*, knowing what moral is *like* is arguably a fundamental element of what a poseiq brings to the question. And even if that argument fails hashkafically, halachically pro forma a poseiq must be a mentally competent Jewish male adult who you believed has the appropriate knowledge, ability and experience (experiential knowledge?). It's the difference between whether any error would be your aveira beshogeig or your doing the right thing in following a pesaq. (And the the case of a human poseiq, their shogeig.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything. http://www.aishdas.org/asp If you want time, you must make it. Author: Widen Your Tent - Charles Buxton - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From cantorwolberg at cox.net Fri Feb 21 05:54:14 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Purim Twist Message-ID: <810C4798-B74F-40A2-B8AA-1CF357667DF4@cox.net> 1) We're all familiar with the custom and law of making much noise when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the Megilla. The standard answer to why we do it is to drown out his name. I see another reason. We must make a lot of noise against EVIL. Haman, a descendant of Amalek, is evil personified. We cannot be silent in the face of evil. We must yell, shout, and make all the noise we can. (Does this sound timely)? 2) If we were asked the etymology of the word "Megilla," we would say it comes from the word galal, "to roll." The word gelila, "wrapping the Torah" also comes from the same root. I came across a nice midrashic twist. As we know the word "Esther" has as its root "samech, tof, reish" for hidden. Interestingly, Megilla has been explained to have the root giluy, which means "revealed." Hence, we have a major theme for the Megilla -- revealing that which is hidden. From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Feb 21 07:49:15 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: "Rich, Joel" wrote: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article (to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts. In it, he talks about future possibilities. https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/ (PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form already.) It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether the machine-made connections make sense or not. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 11:58:18 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: > There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon > `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned > by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An > example of this category is the practice of earning a living from > teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like the Rambam. There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo. (Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but the Bartenura disagrees apparently.) R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah to make your daily bread? Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original: Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for, and not the learning itself. Thinking out loud: The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod, that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution instead of just "don't take pay". But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that "most". On to a very different topic, same subject line... On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I recall in my youth that there were individuals who > consistently stood for the entire leining. I would > assume that was their minhag. My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian. Amu"sh.) My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk, not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam, and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing for the diberos: > he Rambam also held that we never > change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that > we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears > we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. > My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with > ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, > in which case it's perfectly fine to stand. Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for everything. Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos. Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean a- pesaqim specific to a community b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin c- ... anything else? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:45:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour to chatzos is only bedi'eved. So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:53:40 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224205340.GB9637@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at : chamor and saw chomer(material world) The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they are in charge of their chomer side. Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason" symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me, I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Feb 24 18:58:03 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:58:03 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? --------------------------- At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan KT Joel THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 25 09:00:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200225170034.GI27056@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved or hefsed situations. But I was confused about the first question: >> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, >> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven >> is at the beginning of that time range? On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening > with a minyan The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at haneitz. In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar. Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else is also yotzei. Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.) Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan. The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema (Rambam). Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 26 04:50:01 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply z'rizin makdimin. I'm even tempted to say that it has nothing to do with z'rizin makdimin, and the proof is that the same pasuk is used for two purposes: Shacharis at the very beginning of the day, and also Mincha at the very end. Mechaber 89:1 - "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." Brachos 29b - R' Yochanan said, "It's a mitzva to pray when the sun is red." R' Zeira said, "What's the pasuk? Yira'ucha im shamesh, v'lifnay yare'ach, dor dorim." (Tehillim 72:5) Brachos 29b Rashi - "Yira'ucha im shamesh" - This is Tefilas Yotzer. "V'lifnay yare'ach" - This is Tefilas Mincha. Shabbos 118b Rashi - "V'lifnay yare'ach" - Prior to the light of the moon, while the sun has not yet set. Brachos 29b Steinzaltz - "When the sun is red" - Tefilas Yotzer with Haneitz Hachama, and Tefilas Mincha with Shkias Hachama. Brachos 29b ArtScroll note 11 - These two times (just after sunrise and just prior to sunset) are the most propitious for reciting the morning and afternoon Prayers respectively. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva ( http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24777) which says: "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day to pray - "with sunrise." And optimal time for the Minchah prayer is at the end of the day, as the sun is setting - "before the moon." I believe that the above is true l'halacha, but in the l'maaseh there is a very big difference between Shacharis and Mincha, perhaps explained best by Gemara Brachos 29b, immediately after the line I quoted above. "In the west [Eretz Yisrael] they would curse someone who davens [Mincha] when the sun gets red. Why? Because he might miss the zman." In order words, there is no downside to saying Shacharis at the very earliest time, but there is a very great danger in delaying Mincha to the very latest time. I suspect that this is why discussions about the time for Mincha center on "How early CAN I daven", and not on "When is the BEST time to daven." Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 26 07:10:59 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200226151059.GE3829@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:50am EST, R Akiva Miller wrote: > R' Micha Berger wrote: >> So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. > The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply > z'rizin makdimin... Which is why my post continued. As I noted, the Rambam says it's the sole right time, and everything else is inferior. Why would he say that? Likely the pasuq the machaber quotes: > Mechaber 89:1 -- "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one > should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." And so, I concluded that the main reason is being chosheish for the Rambam's reasoning. But even if your confidence in halachic process is such that you don't need to go beyond the Tur's shitah and minhag yisrael, there is still zerizim maqdimin. But there is more! Because doing anything before minyan is lesse Majeste or borders on it. (Thus we don't eat before davening, uless needed for davening, we don't go in order to greet people...) So, there is more drive for "as early as possible" than most mitzvos. And I think that is why: > Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, > other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva > () which says: > "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day > to pray -- "with sunrise."... I have heard Breslover speakers argue similarly. Kevasiqin is for OT1H chassidim and other benei aliyah who want to follow the beautiful idea in the pasuq in Tehillim, and OTOH for Briskers and the sort who are regularly chosheshim for rejected shitos. But never caught on among those in the middle. (It is also more common among actual vasiqin, as waking up enough before haneitz to catch a minyan kevasiqin is frustratingly common among the more "ancient" among us. That's when my father amu"sh started.) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" -- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From eliturkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 14:17:58 2020 From: eliturkel at gmail.com (Eli Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 00:17:58 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus Message-ID: halkachic cautions in the face of coronavirus https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/02/precautions-in-shul-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus/ -- Eli Turkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 13:31:37 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> References: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200301213137.GA13398@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean > a- pesaqim specific to a community > b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin > c- ... anything else? RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis until marriage. Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes, it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's all post facto. And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost. So there is a (c) for my list c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic. Anyone have a suggestion for (d)? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 14:02:05 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following: > A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) > writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot > must be kashered before it is re-used... > are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but > nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As > such, there are the following positions: > * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be > halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as > non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. > * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient > position on commercial milk would... > * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position > in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a > chumrah... This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's, as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago). But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation. Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify. Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against adulterating his milk. Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS. Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly (YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews. Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all. So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or that of another CY eater.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift. http://www.aishdas.org/asp The purpose of life Author: Widen Your Tent is to give it away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Pablo Picasso From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 15:35:52 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly. For example, I recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold in NY as kosher was actually treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper kashrus standards.. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 15:58:22 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <07ea01d5f025$4c5d3250$e51796f0$@aishdas.org> From: Prof. Levine Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST > At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. > Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for > those who wanted to keep kosher properly... But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened? My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical, since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting pesaq halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Mar 1 20:11:23 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 04:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. -------------------------------------- And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 2 07:30:52 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > following the Peri Chadash against the CS. Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all he does is cite the Radvaz? > So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes > is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or > that of another CY eater.) Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was used with was non-CY milk. If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed up in good faith. But if you hold that it's actually kosher then there's no problem in the first place. And if you're kind of in the middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as snifim lehakel. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 2 13:01:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200302210134.GC3266@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. > Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all > he does is cite the Radvaz? I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse. -Micha From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:34:37 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mezuzah checked Message-ID: From the OU: Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done? A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years (i.e., every 3? years). ......... Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions of their rav when a question would be appropriate. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:57 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot Message-ID: From R'Rimon in Hamizrachi: "In light of the above (me - shtarei hedyotot et al) it would be best if there were no ads at all in our Parshat Hashavua sheets"..... "However it is very difficult to abide by these demands in our times because it's the ads that fund the publication"... "Still it would be worth having clear guidelines" This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." I'd really appreciate a better understanding of the halachic force of this consideration. Oh, and did the publishers of Hamizrachi appreciate the irony of this article appearing in their publication with advertisement which is distributed in many shuls on Shabbat? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 10:59:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self Message-ID: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Experiencing the tzelem Elokim as proof there is an Elokim? See https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/search-soul-john-cottingham-review or http://bit.ly/3czL1aK Snippets / teasers: New Statesman The paradox of an atheist soul Why the idea of a single self only makes sense in a theistic world. By John Gray There are many arguments for theism, most of them not worth rehearsing. ... A different and more interesting approach is to argue that theism is suggested by the fact that we experience ourselves as unified, conscious beings - in other words, as having a soul. Not necessarily an immaterial entity, the soul is the part of us that strives to realise what is best in our nature. We do not come to know the soul through any special revelation. We know it by considering the kind of creature we find ourselves to be - a thinking being inhabiting a life-world that seems to reflect a mind greater than our own. Once we realise we have a soul, theism becomes a credible way of thinking. Such is the approach adopted in this lucid and illuminating book by John Cottingham, professor of the philosophy of religion at University of Roehampton.... Cottingham presents a version of the transcendental argument deployed by the German Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804). A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, it asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are accepted as given. Kant used it to support his belief in a universal moral law and, at points in his writings, the existence of God. As used by Cottingham, its purpose is to refute the Scottish sceptic David Hume (1711-1776), whom Kant described as "having interrupted my dogmatic slumber". In A Treatise of Human Nature (1739), Hume had written that the self is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed one another with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement". If the self is not an autonomous entity but an assemblage of sensations Kant's theistic faith crumbles into dust. Cottingham spells out the connection between theism and the idea of the self: It is a fundamental theistic belief, following the words of Genesis, that human beings are made "in the image" of God; and this is taken to be especially true in virtue of our conscious minds, in virtue of our attributes of intellect and will. Theism thus posits a source of ground of all being that is somehow mind-like: consciousness is taken to be at the heart of reality. The theistic picture tends to be discarded or ignored by the majority of contemporary philosophers, but it seems perverse to dismiss it from consideration should it turn out to fit rather well with certain aspects of reality that cannot in integrity be denied... [such as] the irreducible reality of consciousness. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 11:15:13 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> In a recent post in Torah Musings , R Daniel Mann answers a question about a new practice some have regarding parashas Zakhor. Again, snippets: Question: My shul has always read Parashat Zachor once, with our regular havara (pronunciation). Some people now complain that we do not follow other shuls and read multiple times with different havarot to fulfill the mitzva according to more opinions and to do the mitzva properly for Sephardim. Should we change our minhag? First he brings arguments that one doesn't need correct havara to be yotzei. Whether because the deOraisa doesn't need to be in lashon haqodesh, or perhaps has no specific text, or RMF's (IM OC 3:5) proof from chalitza that havara is not meqev, or that an Ashkenzi who doesn't distinguish between alef and ayin may serve as chazan for Ashkenazim... The latter two arguments saying that "correct havarah" is societal. Still, one might need to have Parashas Zakhor available in many havaros if the community is of people of different eidos. At least as a chumerah. But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... Several (Teshuvot V'hanhagot ibid.; Halichot Shlomo ibid.; Aseh Lecha Rav VI:22) mention hearing of such a new practice and consider it strange. They reject it as being disrespectful to the tzibbur, to the rest of our lainings, and/or to past generations who did not do such things. I would not criticize a minyan that decides to do so anyway (some fine places do), and there are circumstances in which there is a stronger argument (e.g., there is no minyan in the area of other eidot), but it is wrong to criticize the normal minhag for not adopting this innovation. In the early days of the list, I was particularly prone to Brisker chumeros (trying to be yotzei as many shitos as possible) or to chumeros or pesaqim that allow expression of how I understood the mitzvah hashkafically. I think learning a cycle and a fraction of AhS Yomi has toned that down. At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of confidence in the halachic process. As for hashkafically motivated pesaq, that's still with me more. But I think I've gotten to an age where I finally understand the value of continuity as well. (I mentioned before, though, my mother's observation about the family she married in to. My grandfather got to the US too young to be aware of most of his minhagim and therefore ended up acting as per R/Dr Mirsky's shiurim. My father's decades of "the Rav's" (RYBS's) Tues night shiur, and repreatedly took on the implications of those shiurim. And then my own habits. Doing what fits what we learned in shiur last IS the onky continuity my family practice has.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Live as if you were living already for the http://www.aishdas.org/asp second time and as if you had acted the first Author: Widen Your Tent time as wrongly as you are about to act now! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 4 11:36:42 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36.2D.07714.B14006E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:25 PM 3/4/2020, R. Joel Rich wrote: >People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients >listed on the label. > >-------------------------------------- >And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" >KT >Joel Rich Since when to two wrongs make a right? Also one has to keep in mind that in many places everything was made from scratch. My mother-in-law comes from a small town in Hungary. There was essentially no prepared anything. Baking was done at home, meat and chickens were kashered at home, etc. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Mar 6 08:19:30 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: Good stuff from Rav Aviner: http://www.ravaviner.com/2020/03/hilchot-corona.html Some of the questions include: Q: Is one obligated to listen to the instructions of the Ministry of Health regarding Corona? Q: Does one fulfill the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim on the phone? Q: If a person is in quarantine for Corona, what does he do about Davening in a Minyan? Q: Should one refrain from kissing Mezuzot on account of Corona? Q: How could someone get sick with Corona while hearing the Megillah when the Gemara states, "Harm will not befall one on the way to perform a Mitzvah"? Q: What is Hashem trying to teach us with the Corona Virus in the world? and many more -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 17:58:20 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing > practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, > some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different minhagim? -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 18:25:10 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > accepted as given. One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is universal. "Kol echad be`atzmo shi`er", and assumed everyone else must be the same. If that assumption is not true, it can lead to utter confusion, as people debate at cross-purposes, each completely unable to understand the other's arguments. See, for an example, https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like? Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even existed. The debate was resolved by Francis Galton, a fascinating man who among other achievements invented eugenics, the "wisdom of crowds", and standard deviation. Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images. Dr. Berman dubbed this the Typical Mind Fallacy: the human tendency to believe that one's own mental structure can be generalized to apply to everyone else's. -- Zev Sero Have a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:23:48 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: > One should therefore refrain from touching or kissing Mezuzot. < My practice for some time has been to "point to" (essentially, reach towards but not touch) the m'zuzah as I pass (and when I leave my house, to say, "Baruch ata b'vo'echa, uvaruch ata b'tzeisecha"). However, having trouble getting used to a clenched-fist (and hate the dangerous elbow) greeting... :). --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:53:00 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. Very well phrased! I have often felt this way, but was unable to find the words to express it. Thank you. For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Mar 9 07:09:31 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. ----------------------------------- Or a lack of confidence in oneself (or their ability/worthiness to decide)? I often think of R? Schachter comparing the personalities of R? Chaim and the Netziv and wonder if this could be explained on that basis. Enough said? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 11 11:47:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:47:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] NYT Ethicist Message-ID: NYT Ethicist - What would halacha be? Q.I have been struck by a fatal disease, inherited from my father. I have children, who know they have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the disease from me. I have several siblings. One has children of her own. She has so far refused to be tested on the off chance that she, too, has the gene. This means that her children don't know anything about the cause of my disease. There are interventions that could protect any future grandchildren, but her children don't know they are in danger of passing the disease along. I have been tempted to tell my sister's children myself, but I know this would result in a major breach in our relationship (a real loss to me). What is my ethical responsibility here? Name Withheld A. ... The trouble isn't that your sister refuses to be tested. That's her choice. ... The trouble is that she wants to prevent her children from knowing what she already knows. By keeping them in the dark, she's robbing them of the ability to make their own choices. And here's a critical point. Even if they declined to be tested themselves, simply knowing that they're at risk would enable them to protect any children they might have in the future, through "nondisclosure testing." Clinics can conduct pre?implantation embryo screening without sharing the results with the at-risk parent... Preserving your own uncertainty is defensible; putting others in jeopardy is not... As painful as a breach in your relationship with your sister would be, it's clear that your sister's misguided plan is itself weighing heavily on you. Urge her to level with her children about the facts. (She could implore them not to tell her if they are tested and get a positive result.) Were she still to refuse, tell them yourself. KT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:53:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200311205357.GG11689@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 08:58:20PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing >> practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, >> some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... > How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 > kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different > minhagim? Chazal wanted everyone doing the same thing, but rather than mandate one definition of the teru'ah to the exclusion of the others, we all do all three of them. This innovation breaks from everyone doing the same. But more than that... Chazal had the power to pasqen and would have pasqened if they didn't feel this compromise brought more achdus. Being chosheish for shitas Rashi after centuries of no one (or kim'at no one) blew according to shitas Rashi is an unwillingness to pasqen. And an unwillingness to accept that the halachic process can actually say A is right and B wrong. It's questioning the whole concept of pesaq! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:02:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311200248.GD11689@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:45:42AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be > holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six > different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). > > This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he > does so here? Never found an answer, and a month later, I'm giving up. BUT, I liked the Y-mi's explanation at the end of Challah pereq 1 (vilna daf 9b) cited at the SA ad loc by the Gra -- OC 167 s"q 4 . The ten fingers are a reminder of the 10 mitzvos it took to get the bread: 1- Lo sacharosh - Not plowing with a kelaim of animals 2- Bal tizra - Not planting kelaim 3- Bal tachsom - Not muzzling the animals to keep them from eating 4- Leqet 5- Shikhechah 6- Pei'ah 7- Terumah 8- Maaser Rishon 9- Maaser Sheini (or Maaser Ani, depending on the year, though not mentioned in the Y-mi) 10- Challah Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:20:47 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live R Ari Kahn (of Bar Ilan) came out in favor of such readings, the mar'eh meqomos for his shiur are available at https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2020/03/hearing-megillah-over-telephone-or.html AIUI, RAK's primary concern was to reassure people who have no choice, and to make sure questionable cases don't risk spreading disease by showing up. So he really presents the case for only one side. RGS pointed people to R Daniel Z Feldman's (RIETS) older piece (not reflecting this year's she'as hadechaq) in Tradition at https://traditiononline.org/the-virtual-minyain which gives both sides of the story. I tried to lend my megillah to someone so that they could listen to the above-linked reading at YU and read along from a kosher megillah. But, my livingroom is being painted, the bookcase where I keep my megillah was among those boxed up, and someone else beat me to the mitzvah. In Westchester County, NY, Chabad managed to organize leining for 100 quarantined people by having the baal qeriah read on a deck or porch, outside an open door or window. But such arrangements are not available to everyone. I saw on Facebook the following social concern that I thought was interesting and valid enough to share here. https://www.facebook.com/matthew.kritz.9/posts/2899197760173502 R Matthew Nitzanim writes (in part): This is why I fear the live-feed Megillah readings. There is no doubt that it is the most practical solution to ensure more people hear the Megillah, without risking more people catching the virus, and there is arguably halachic grounds to allow the practice (even as the debate continues), especially under these extenuating circumstances. But once virtual readings are normalized, what will Purim look like next year? I'm not too worried about no one showing up for Megillah next year - we all know it's more fun to boo for Haman and show off our costumes with friends around. But what about all those people who are alone, boxed out of society? Will the hospital and the rehab center call the local yeshiva for volunteers to come visit, or will they suffice with arranging a dial-in reading (which will inevitably come to be replaced with a recording for those who can't distinguish)? Will the readers and merry-makers of years past feel less push to pay visits when the mitzvah can be fulfilled electronically? Certainly this change wouldn't happen in just one year, but perhaps we are setting a precedent that will be taken seriously in years to come. Because what's at stake is not merely the obligation to hear the Megillah. What is at stake is the future of community and interpersonal connection in the age of digital media. Performing one of our most communal mitzvot through a screen means radically reimagining the very meaning of community, a process that is already well underway. Among the Orthodox, the study of Torah, traditionally intended to bring people into the same room, is increasingly done via recorded shiurim. Elsewhere in the Jewish world, services are taped and can be watched from home, and you can even find a dial-in Kaddish minyan. And shout out to the various Skype Seudot and Zoom Tishes spreading Purim cheer to the quarantined. Each of these is an exciting way digital communication can be used to better include those would otherwise be left out. But if we aren't careful with the pace of development, we will end up creating tools that, although intended to increase connection and participation, will further distance and disenfranchise those who were already only hoping for a visitor or two, and will be left with nothing but a computer screen. What we are watching is reminiscent of the Conservative Movement's ruling permitting driving on Shabbat -- intended to increase access to communal life, but perhaps in the process weakening the physical proximity that keeps community alive, with only time to tell whether the benefits outweigh the costs. So too with screen talk: appealing as it may be in this moment, down the road, we risk harming the very deep sense of community that held us together in ancient Persia and through the ages to this very day. Maybe this is a moment where we would benefit from Halacha being less accommodating of the present, and more oppositional and countercultural.... So he recommends making a heqer: So be cautious this Purim, not only hygienically, but spiritually too. If I had a say, I would encourage those who are doing the holy work of reading Megillah by livestream for people in quarantine not to say the Brachot, even if they are also reading for themselves, to make clear that this is a sub par, temporary fix, and not necessarily an ideal, long term change. And finally, this nice thought is off topic for the thread, but worth sharing: More importantly, for everyone stuck at home this Purim, please take it upon yourself, once your quarantine is LONG SINCE OVER, to pay a visit to someone who feels alone for more than two weeks at a time. It can be next Purim, or maybe even sooner. Take your experience of being homebound, and allow it to be a springboard for being more aware of the many, many people who would give anything not to be alone, to be greeted by a friendly face with a warm smile, by someone who remembered that it's Purim for them too. More than an ecard, or a phone call, or a Zoom chat, what they really want to see is you. qiyum is suboptimal. -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:28:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202821.GF11689@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving > priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." What the "this" was aside, I didn't think that's why we ignore those priorities. Rather, it ends up never being halakhah lemaaseh even from day one. The mishnah itself says these priorities are "all else being equal". And all else is never equal. The reisha is just one triage factor among many. The problem, thus, isn't abiding, but in deciding which mamzer is enough of a talmid chakham to go ahead of the kohein gadol, or which baal chessed outranks the innate qedushah of a kohein. Or... Lack of ability to assess, not lack of emotional constitution to follow through. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:56:30 2020 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or rimon? On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos > that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic > transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > > From penkap at panix.com Wed Mar 11 18:28:28 2020 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: ? For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" ?And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. ?So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. ?A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers.? The amount of sechel in this comment is almost overwhelming. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 11 21:26:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Perhaps one can add as a snif to "permit" it the Chasam Sofer on Hil' Kidush Levana, citing a case during a cholera epidemic in Cracow, when the rov of the time found a heter to say kidush levana on the 16th night so that people who would not otherwise be able to say it should not get depressed and ch"v endanger themselves. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:58:07 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: On Areivim, the issue was raised that the shuls in Bergen County NJ are now closed, and the question of "house minyanim" was raised too. I have a question about house minyanim that I'd like to discuss. My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. Once that minyan exists, additional people can be in adjoining rooms, provided that they can see and hear. I've often been at house minyanim where fewer people are in the room with the Shliach Tzibur, and the rest are in an adjoining room. The doorway between them is so wide that people don't give it a second thought. It seems to me that even though there is no actual door separating these two rooms, the fact that there's a mezuzah between them might define them as distinct rooms for the halacha of establishing a minyan. I hope I have explained the situation clearly enough. The MB does not seem to specify the width of the doorway in question, nor did I see any distinction between a "doorway" and an "open door". I suppose someone could argue that the problem exists only for standard-width doors which happen to be open at the moment, and that there's no problem for a living room and dining room that happen to have a mezuzah between them. Has anyone see any poskim write about this? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:02:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hand shake Message-ID: Listened to a shiur where the magid shiur said that R'X used to advise job interviewees to use the dead fish handshake, then later advised the iron man handshake until he was told that each of those would not get you a job. Now he advises a firm, quick business-like handshake. May I vent - I heard R'X say these things over the years and always wondered who he had asked about the real world. How many job opportunities were lost?? etc.?? How much of a responsibility does a poseik have to determine "reality"? (Another example - toveiling electronics) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:04:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals Message-ID: Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 18 08:05:11 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> On 18/3/20 3:04 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals > per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in > halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and condiments to make the bread taste better. Sometimes a grain porridge would substitute for the bread, but the essential roles were the same. To us, the bread, if it appears at all, is a condiment or entree to the real food. We don't eat bread with meat, we eat meat with bread. Even with grains, we regard them as a side dish, not as the main part of the course. So in principle the entire basis of hil' bh"n should be reversed. Next: Undoing the whole concept of 7 mashkim, and the principle that the juice of any fruit but grapes and olives is not a mashkeh. Not just in hil' bh"n and shabbos, but also in hil' taharos. (At least in principle, since they're not practical halachos anyway.) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 11:33:16 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: In Avodah V38n19, RAMiller noted: > My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. < But see the latter half of BH 55:14/MB 55:50. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Mar 15 18:42:51 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper _______________________________________________ Areivim mailing list Areivim at lists.aishdas.org http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 19 07:10:49 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 4 amos and Epidimeology Message-ID: <20200319141049.GA17120@aishdas.org> Is it "coincidence" or do you think it's common cause: The recommended distance to be sure we don't breathe on each other is given as 6 feet or 2 m, depending on what the masses being recommended to think in. Which "just happens to be" just around the 4 amos radius used to define a person's space for the sake of davening or acquisitions. (As an ammah is defined by to the Rambam, R Chaim Naeh, and the plaque on the wall found at Chizqiyahu's water tunnel. Not the CI. Would tzadiq gozer veE' meqayeim mean that people need to be be staying farther apart in Bnei Braq to be safe?) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 19 09:23:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> References: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> Message-ID: There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. =================================== He also said (From R' Torcyner translation): And after each prayer, evening and morning, they should recite Tehillim, certain psalms which his honour should select, and then the text of Kel rachum sh'mecha, Aneinu Hashem aneinu, Mi she'anah, and the Y'hi ratzon after Tehillim, mentioning in it the king, may Gd protect him, and his children and nobles and all who live in his land. IMHO the last part is also about the realization that a united community response is required bderech hateva (not each subsegment deciding on its own what to do) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 05:20:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:20:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger by R Herschel Schachter Message-ID: <20200320122008.GA4902@aishdas.org> This is an abornamlly long piece for Facebook, but it's making the rounds there. :-)BBii! -Micha The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger Rav Hershel Schachter Many have the mistaken impression that the Jewish religion places much emphasis on death and respect for the dead; after all, we recite kaddish, yizkor, observe shiva, and yahrzeit, etc. This is a gross misunderstanding. The respect that we show for the dead is a carryover from the respect that we show for the living. The Gemorah (Kesubos 17a, see Shitah Mekubetzes) tells us that whenever there is a conflict between kovod ha'chayim and kovod ha'meisim, kovod ha'chaim takes precedence. When the chevra kadisha brings in the aron at a funeral, everyone stands up. People mistakenly think that we stand up out of respect for the niftar, but in many cases we never stood up for him when he was alive, so why should we stand up for him now that he passed away? The Bartenurah (Mishnayos Bikurim 3:3) explains that we are not standing up out of respect for the niftar but rather out of respect for the members of the chevra kaddisha who are presently involved in the fulfillment of a mitzvah. The respect for the living is based on the premise that all human beings were created b'tzelem Elokim. When the Torah requires us to demonstrate kovod ha'meis, it means that even after the person passed away and no longer has tzelem Elokim, i.e. a neshama, we still have to act respectfully towards the body because it used to have a tzelem Elokim. Of the six hundred and thirteen mitzvos, one of the most important is the mitzvah of v'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem (Yoma 85b). Not only does the halacha require that if there is a sofek sakanah we must violate almost all of the mitzvos in the Torah to save a life, but we are also required to do so even if there is only a s'fek s'feika, a remote possibility(Yoma 85a). The Gemorah (ibid) adds that even if the likelihood is that by violating Shabbos or whatever other aveira we most probably will not be saving anyone's life, we still do not abstain from the action due to that likelihood (rove - majority). When Bnei Yisroel were traveling in the midbar for 40 years, the weather conditions were such that there was a slight sakanah in performing bris milah. Most of the sh'votim did not fulfill the mitzvah except for sheivet Levi[1]. They had an Orthodox rabbi among them, i.e. Moshe Rabbeinu. Why didn't all the shevatim ask him what to about this sofek sakanah? If it is a real sofek sakanah he should not have permitted sheivet Levi to perform the mitzvah despite their pietistic protests, and if the sofek sakanah was so insignificant that it simply should have been dismissed, why didn't he insist that all the shevatim perform the mitzvah of milah? The Gemorah (Yevamos 12b) tells us that the answer is to be found in Tehillim (116:6), "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." Whenever there is a slight sofek sakanah that is nowhere near fifty-fifty[2], the halacha declares that it depends on the attitude of the patient. If the patient whose life is at risk (or the parent of the patient who is responsible for his well-being) is personally not nervous about the danger, then the halacha does not consider it a sofek sakanah; we apply "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." But if the patient whose life is at risk is nervous and concerned about the sofek sakanah, then the halacha requires us to act based on, "V'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem", and the sofek sakanah takes precedence over almost all of the mitzvos of the Torah. Shevet Levi had bitachon, and therefore were not concerned, and therefore for their children it was not considered a sofek sakanah, but with respect to the other shevatim who were concerned it was in fact a sofek sakanah, so every shevet was acting k'din. However, if one individual is not concerned, but the nature of the sakanah is such that everyone is interdependent and the individual who personally is not nervous may possibly spread a disease to others who are concerned about its spread, then the concept of Shomer p'soyim Hashem does not apply. The individual who is not concerned does not have the right to determine for the others who are concerned that there is no sakanah for them. The Rakanti[3] relates that one of Ba'alei Ha'tosfos was deathly sick before Yom Kippur and the doctors warned him that if he fasts he will certainly die but if he eats on Yom Kippur there is a slim chance that he may survive. He decided to fast, and of course he died. All of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos were upset over his decision and felt that he went against the halacha. If a terrorist threatens to kill me unless I violate one of the mitzvos of the Torah, the halacha usually is that pikuach nefesh takes precedence over most of the mitzvos in the Torah. What if an individual wants to put up a fight knowing that he may well lose his life but thinks that by being moser nefesh he will fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem? This matter was a famous dispute amongst the Rishonim. The Rambam's opinion is that one may not volunteer to give up his life al kiddush Hashem when not required by halacha because this is tantamount to suicide[4]. Many other Rishonim disagreed with the Rambam. However, if there is no terrorist pressuring me to violate my religion, but there is merely a dangerous situation of sickness then all of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos agreed with the Rambam that it would not constitute a midas chassidus to ignore the sakanah[5]. In determining what is a sakanah and what is not, the practice of the Tanoim always was to follow the doctors of their generation. Every so often the Rambam would take a stand on a medical issue against what it says in the Gemorah and the Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah #101) explains that the Rambam was a doctor and he did exactly as the Tanoim did, namely, to follow the doctors of his generation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 331:9) also says explicitly that we follow the doctors of our generation even in contradiction to the medicine recommended in the Gemorah. We should certainly do the same as the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and follow the doctors of our generation in determining what is considered a sakanah and what is not considered a sakanah. Some well-meaning individuals have blown out of halachic proportion the significance of tefillah b'tzibur and talmud Torah b'rabim and have opted to ignore the sofek sakanah presented by the corona virus when in conflict with these two most important mitzvos. We live in a generation where many b'nei Torah tend to exaggerate the significance of Torah and tefillah. Although their intention is certainly l'shaim Shomayim, we must all keep in mind that when paskening shailos, one may not rely on an exaggeration. All exaggerations by definition are sheker - a misrepresentation of the truth of the Torah. Rav Chaim Volozhiner signs off quite a few of his teshuvos saying, "Keil Emes, Nosan lanu Toras Emes, u'bilti el ho'emes eineinu - the true God gave us the true Torah, and we only look for the truth." Any exaggeration in the area of Torah and halacha is clearly a misrepresentation of our religion. The commentaries on Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 157) refer to the comments of the Maharshal in his sefer Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kamma 38a) that to misrepresent a law of the Torah constitutes an aveira related to avodah zorah[6] and as such would be subject to the principle of yeihoreig v'al ya'avor. With respect to a sofek sakanah the halacha clearly requires that we go extremely l'chumrah. Especially religious Jews, who know that they are charged with a mission in life, should certainly be extremely machmir on matters of sofek sakanah. Although every word of a poem appears in the dictionary, the poet conveys an idea by putting the words in a certain order. So too, different people can have the same ideas and the same principles, but if you put them in a different arrangement you have changed the whole understanding if each one of the principles[7]. Once you exaggerate the significance of any particular mitzvah, you have misrepresented the whole picture of kol haTorah kula. [1] See Rashi, Devarim 33:9. [2] See Achiezer, volume 1, #23,2. [3] Siman 166; see Teshuvos Dvar Yehoshua, vol. 2 #94 [4] Hilchos Yesodei haTorah, 5:1. [5] See Mishna Berura 328:6. [6] Because we believe that the Torah is a description of the essence of G-d, misrepresenting the Torah is tantamount to misrepresenting G-d Himself [7] Thoughts 1:22, by Blaise Pascal` From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 07:07:03 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Message-ID: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> R R Wolpoe or R Ben Hecht (the blog post gives me mixed signals) posted the following guidelines from R Yaakov Hoffman of the Washington Heights Congregation designed for his congregation. (Not to be confused with R Yair Hoffman of the 5TJT.) http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-rrw-guest-blogger-rabbi-yaakov.html On factor I noticed RYH didn't mention that I saw others did was maintaining your usual davening times. (Assuming we're not talking about kevasiqin as the other option.) :-)BBii! -Micha NishmaBlog Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Friday, 20 March 2020 >From RRW Guest Blogger: Rabbi Yaakov Hoffman Below is a halachic guide I prepared for my shul on how to daven on Shabbos without a minyan, and general halachos one should know that are affected by not being in a shul framework on Shabbos. Feel free to use/adapt for your own shuls. Also, I would be happy to receive any he'aros you may have. Thanks. Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide - One should make an effort to daven Mincha on Friday before plag ha-mincha (this week ~5:50pm). - It is not necessary to recite the full Kabbalat Shabbat as recited in shul; reciting Lecha Dodi, Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat, Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh, and Bameh Madlikin is sufficient. One should recite Lecha Dodi and Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat before sunset (this week ~7:07pm). - Although ordinarily one should daven Maariv after nightfall when praying without a minyan, on Friday evening one may daven after plag (preferably one should wait ~20 minutes after plag). The Shema must be repeated after nightfall (tzeit ha-kochavim, this Friday ~7:42pm). - One may make Kiddush and begin the meal immediately after davening Maariv. If one has not yet begun the meal by tzeit ha-kochavim, one must repeat the Shema before eating. - Those who arise early are strongly encouraged to daven ke-vatikin -- timing one's Shacharit to begin the Amidah at sunrise (this week ~6:56am). - If one is pressed for time (e.g., in order to daven at sunrise, or because one needs to help out at home), one can skip the extra psalms added during Psukei de-Zimra on Shabbat, with the exception of Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat and Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh. - Men should take care to daven Shacharit before the latest time for the Shema (this week ~10am). - After the Amidah of Shacharit, one recites Ashrei and then the Amidah of Musaf, followed by Ein k'Elokeinu, Aleinu, and Shir shel Yom. - It is extremely advisable to read or study the weekly parashah at some point over Shabbat (and to be extra careful about shnayim mikra during the preceding week). - On Shabbat Mevarchim, it is a good idea to remind oneself and one's household about the upcoming Rosh Chodesh (Rosh Chodesh Nisan is Thursday March 26). One does not recite the formal prayer for the upcoming month that is recited in shul. - One should wash for the Shabbat morning meal before midday (this week ~1pm). - One should daven Mincha before eating se`udah shlishit. - Se`udah shlishit should begin before sunset, and may extend as long as one likes. After benching, or after 10 minutes post-sunset (whichever is later), one may not eat or drink anything except water until after Havdalah. - One should not daven Maariv on Saturday night until after Shabbat is over (this week ~7:50pm); preferably, one should not do any melacha before davening Maariv (with atah chonantanu) or making Havdalah. - Baruch Hashem L'Olam is omitted in Maariv when not davening with a minyan. The rest of Maariv, including additions for motza'ei Shabbat, is recited as usual. Veyiten lecha may be recited after Havdalah. Vihi no`am and ve'attah kadosh are omitted on the Saturday night preceding Pesach (and Shavuot, but hopefully we will be back in shul well before then!), but veyiten lecha is still recited. Yaakov Hoffman Rabbi, Washington Heights Congregation[5] www.bridgeshul.com Posted by Rabbi Ben Hecht at 9:08 am From dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk Fri Mar 20 05:02:57 2020 From: dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk (D Rubin) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> References: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 From: Zev Sero > I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so > completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made > hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who > can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and > condiments to make the bread taste better... http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29994 From zev at sero.name Fri Mar 20 08:38:46 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Also omit bracha me'ein sheva, as one does whenever one is not davening with a regularly scheduled minyan. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at Segalco.com Sat Mar 21 11:26:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Interesting-no mention of remembering to dress for shabbat KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From isaac at balb.in Sat Mar 21 04:29:28 2020 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:29:28 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis a vis Lo Sa'amod? 2. Has there been any advice to Mohelim who normally do Metzitza bPeh to cease the practice at this time? 3. Does a Rav have a Chiyuv as Mesader Kiddushin to cease proceedings until there is (in Australia) 4 meters square between people 4. Does a Caterer have a Chiyuv to cease serving food at a Simcha or the like if it too is breaching guidelines? _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ??? From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:35:43 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kshering Metal Sinks Message-ID: . The Chicago CRC has a video on hag'alat keilim at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HSfRG69ho&feature=youtu.be I am curious about two things he said at 6:52-6:59, about kashering a metal sink: 1) "make sure that it's a continuous flow and not to stop in the middle from that pot" 2) "start from the bottom and then you work your way up" Why should it be a continuous flow? What's wrong with pausing the flow, as long as every square millimeter gets hit? And what is the advantage of doing the floor of the sink prior to the walls? Alternatively, what's the downside of kashering the walls first? My totally uneducated guess is that the runoff from the walls would do a "chozer v'niur" on the floor, cancelling the 24-hour wait, whereas if the floor is done first, the runoff from the walls is not sufficiently chometzdik to invalidate the kashering. Am I close? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 24 16:23:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: <20200324232314.GA12402@aishdas.org> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 I see two distinct conversations here: - Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? - Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc... When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria. -Micha IsraelNationalNews.com Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33 A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the presence of the "Zoom" program. The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly people who cannot be physically close to their family members due to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their family through the program. The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the start of the holiday. Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency. "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness, so is the case here," the rabbis wrote. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:29:48 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minor fasts? Message-ID: The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare with other b'al nefesh call outs? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:31:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut Message-ID: A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have failed this test. Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:18:33 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder Message-ID: More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to him? I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps, and we would not want to skip any of them. For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on, and then eating the karpas. But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha, the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately. Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on during the meal. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they arise. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 25 13:40:14 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:40:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:56:23 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325215623.GC14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > > accepted as given. > > One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is > universal.... Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal. > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example ... > Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually > a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't > think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist > that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." > Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of > famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading > scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even > existed. And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population. https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US. https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are non-sighted people. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:37:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> Message-ID: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: > 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching > government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis > a vis Lo Sa'amod? I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera > epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, > davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan > that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to > station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:33:51 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The 5780th Pasuk Message-ID: <20200325213351.GA11104@aishdas.org> There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the corresponding pasuq. So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24: Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov... Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to the year of RMF's petirah. So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28: Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah ve'ein bahem tevunah. Of course, I don't know what to make of that. OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth, 5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim): Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha... >From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at "R Eliyahu Shelomo". This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the 601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo: Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz... (I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es haqeitz.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:40:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? See AhS OC 158:13 , where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not, and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open -- safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:04:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325220433.GD14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote: > On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos >> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic >> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or > rimon? You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit if an esrog is unavailable. If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is complex. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Decisions are complex. Author: Widen Your Tent The Torah is complex. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' Binyamin Hecht From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:19:11 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: <20200325211911.GA6964@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable >> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as >> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the >> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt >> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would >> have failed this test. Thoughts? > He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his > colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, > Achiyah Hashiloni. The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact limits of a relative term. If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim, then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the seeds were there. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 10:40:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m! Message-ID: <20200326174000.GA8153@aishdas.org> Save the date! SAVE THE DATE Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020 1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom! https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598 There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time with a Facebook account, just email me at micha at aishdas.org and ask to be included. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 25 23:15:16 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. --------------------------- For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah KT and stay safe Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:14:21 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger asked: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 > ... > Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi > names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA > systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article. I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this in paragraph Aleph: "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei Ashkenaz. But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other reasons? Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 09:24:16 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >> a vis Lo Sa'amod? > > I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera >> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, >> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan >> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to >> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 12:14:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus Message-ID: <20200326191427.GB19172@aishdas.org> The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't want to post the question, but invited me to. RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that is particularly communicable. As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum number of people necessary. But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to the babies. Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear someone discuss the question? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From crclbas at mail.aol.com Thu Mar 26 13:16:34 2020 From: crclbas at mail.aol.com (BenS) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom seder Message-ID: <202003862i1634.GA18647@aishdas.org> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger wrote: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 ... >> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the >> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly >> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due >> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their >> family through the program. I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak. Ben From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 15:02:56 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >>> a vis Lo Sa'amod? >> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ... > No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In > that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested > that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government > to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it > (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing > them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know > how RAE would answer the question posed here. If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to have the police there to break up any violations? Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 17:01:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, > rather than prevent or break up violations? Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places, including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report* to the authorities a violation of *their* rules. Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not yours. So it's very different from RAE's case. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mgluck at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:45:27 2020 From: mgluck at gmail.com (mgluck at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> References: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <027501d603f2$89d05870$9d710950$@gmail.com> R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... ---- R' MB: I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? --------- IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing doesn't make him tahor either, according to that. KT, MYG From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:40:46 2020 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well > known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa > hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon > Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom > Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many > Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." > > Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei > Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or > whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei > Ashkenaz. > The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the latter option would seem to be correct. > > But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. > The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under those circumstances. > > But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a > regular basis? > Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice. ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less widespread. IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let alone the end of maggid, are minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:06:34 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim Message-ID: . For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating, then do we really have permission to break the fast? Think about that for a moment. If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English, so it's HIS words, not my translation.) <<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>> Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:33:50 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:33:50 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns Message-ID: . When I was younger, the electric urns that we used for hot water on Shabbos were very simple: fill it, plug it in, and there was a valve for taking the water when you needed it. But many of the newer ones have various settings. Mine ( https://www.amazon.com/ProChef-SM300-35-Cup-Water-Shabbostat/dp/B07FK8KTZ6) for example, has three settings, called Regular, Shabbat, and Yom Tov. The manual gives the following explanation of the three settings: > Regular Mode: Keeps the water hot based on the water temperature > Shabbat Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer > Yom Tov Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer and is Halachically permissible to add cold water on Yom Tov Based on that explanation, this is my understanding: In Regular Mode, the thermostat is in full control; when the water gets too cool the heater will turn on until the correct temperature is reached, and then the heater turns off. In Shabbat and Yom Tov modes, the thermostat never responds to the water being too cool. Rather, every so often the timer will turn the heater on, and the thermostat will turn the heater off when the water is hot enough. So what's the difference between Shabbat Mode and Yom Tov mode? If I would use the Shabbat Mode on Yov Tov, is it assur to add water? If I would use the Yom Tov Mode on Shabbat, is there a problem? These are not theoretical questions. If we are still in Chutz Laaretz for this coming Pesach, we'll have a "three day yom tov", and I don't know which setting is preferable. Does anyone else know? Thank you! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Mar 29 10:15:09 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tefillah When Davening Alone Message-ID: Click here to download "Tefillah When Davening Alone" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 30 08:17:44 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:17:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato Message-ID: Please see https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:04 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Announcing Geshem Message-ID: . In Dec 2011, in the thread "Announcing Tal Umatar", I asked why halacha demands such critical announcements for starting and stopping the prayer for Geshem, yet no formal announcements at all for starting and stopping Tal Umatar. I got no response at all. I asked the same question again in Oct 2015, in the thread "Announcing Geshem". This time I did get one response, from R' Micha Berger, who wrote: > Well, it does make sense to me that baqashos have a level of > personalization that we do not find in shevach. I can insert > whatever baqashos I want to add for birkhas hashanim, so things > are more fluid there. > > My question is more your first one -- why must shevach be communal? > Not making up your own adjectives for G-d, I understand; but even > if I were to switch without everyone in the qehillah doing so yet > (because of the lack of announcement), I wouldn't be doing that... His answer seems very similar to what I found in a teshuva from Rav Hershel Schachter, https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950285/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-9-hallel-on-pesach-night-and-tefillas-tal/ released just yesterday, on how we should handle the switchover this coming Pesach, when most of us will have no effective tzibur for the announcement. The brackets are mine, parentheses are Rav Schachter's. > There is a big difference between She'eila (V'sen Tal Umatar > Livracha) and Hazkara (Mashiv Haruach). See what I wrote in > the name of our Rav [Soloveitchik] in MiPeninei HaRav (section > Tefila, number 5), that changing the descriptions of Hashem > (from Mashiv Haruach to Morid Hatal) requires Reshus Hatzibur, > and an individual is not allowed to make changes on his own. So to answer *my* question, Tefilas Geshem and Tefilas Tal are not informational. They don't simply inform us about the change, they *authorize* the change. And that authorization is not needed in Barech Aleinu. And to answer RMB's question, I'd suggest learning that section of MiPeninei HaRav. (Rav Schachter did give his views there about what we should do in our private Musafs this coming yom tov, but I need to learn it a few more times, and understand it better, before I comment on it.) Akiva Miller Stay Home - Save Lives . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:20:34 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] roll your own Message-ID: An oleh one Thursday (hopefully we will be back in shul soon) morning insisted on reading his own aliyah. I was surprised that the gabbai/Rabbi did not waive him off (given the reason individual olim stopped reading was so as not to embarrass others). Is this at all common? KT and Be Well Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:21:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ukimtas Message-ID: When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara(e.g. the gemara really was dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 2 13:37:43 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: >From today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? A. The Steipler Gaon (Orchos Rabbeinu 2:57) writes that one who studies Gemara or any other subject cannot make a siyum unless one understood the subject matter. The learning need not be with great depth. It is enough that one learns the p?shat (simple understanding). Many poskim hold that this is true even if one did not study the Gemara with Rashi or any other commentary. Sefer Ohr L?Tzion (3:12, ha?arah 1) writes that even if one might have missed a few lines here or there, they can still make a siyum. Similarly, he writes that although when one learns Torah one must vocalize every word (or listen to each word from a chavrusa), but if one occasionally learned by reading the words in one?s mind, one may still make a siyum. One can make a siyum even if one learns a short Masechta such as Tamid or Horiyos, and even if it was studied out of order. Rav Elyashiv, zt?l (Doleh Umashkeh, p. 318:3) held that one person must learn the entire Masechta and it cannot be divided up among a group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sat Jan 4 18:20:44 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: That?s a question which I have always wondered about. The way I see it is the same as taking a test and either passing or failing. If you and I take a test and you get 100 and I get a 60 (assuming that is the passing grade), then I have at least passed. Therefore, I see the same as learning. We both can have learned B?rochos and you know it by heart with all of the m?forshim, and I have learned it enough to get a passing grade so therefore I feel I would have the right to make a siyyum. However, I would look upon your siyyum as more noteworthy (however you wish to interpret that). From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 5 10:41:22 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: <0A849E37-7BD7-45AA-9C73-83FC0FE25429@cox.net> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry is Scripture's way of conveying the conviction that the formative age in Israel's history was not a series of haphazard incidents but the fulfillment of God's grand design??" Avraham lived for 175 years Yitzchok for 180 years Ya'akov for 147years. These numbers form an ordered and symmet- rical series: 7 x 5 squared = 175 (Abraham) 5 x 6 squared = 180 (Isaac) 3 x 7 squared = 147 (Jacob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Tue Jan 7 06:53:14 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:53:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] downloads available.. Message-ID: <134f01d5c56a$313b9010$93b2b030$@touchlogic.com> A coffee drinker's guide to Shabbos micro ground coffee / drip coffee / French press / using timer OUD creamer. do you have to wait 6 hrs till using.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/62kukx9q3ybjs4f/A%20coffee%20drinker%27s%20guide%2 0to%20Shabbos.docx?dl=0 2500 quick English psakim from R Shlomo Miller shlita https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 7 14:12:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? Message-ID: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> From a post: On the one hand, a frustrating element of arbitrariness surrounds umbrella use on Shabbos. Why do we act strictly on this issue, which is hotly debated among authorities, while acting leniently on other disputed issues? God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident. On the other hand, like an individual, a community is defined in part by its past. We cannot change how we got to where we are, our communal evolution through history. As halakhah evolves--within boundaries, of course--we cannot turn back the clock without destabilizing the system. Me: ?God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident.? I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening in ch?ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation) ? Your thoughts? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 04:12:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> Message-ID: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 10:12:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > "God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical > accident." I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories > told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening > in ch"ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at > least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation)? Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a factor in choosing which. After all, we allow for G-d's Will including 49 ways letamei and 49 ways letaheir, and letting humans decide which way of approaching the Truth is necessary for the situation we're in. What I am proposing is more limited than Historical School. With no parallel to some travesty like assigning personal or political motives to a ruling. I am saying that the strengths and weaknesses of how the masses are relating to halakhah itself are historical realities halakhah must account for. Also, to be complete although the issue isn't pragmatic any more -- gezeiros. If you do not believe that Chazal saw where practice *happened to* need shoring up at their moment in time, the decision to make a gezeira to avoid one risk and not a different one seems kind of arbitary at times. I have to believe they were responding to which mistakes were actually being made, or at least mistaken attitudes gaining currnecy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:03:38 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200108200338.GA3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 7:12am EST I replied to RJR: > Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu > va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a > factor in choosing which. This reminds me of another question RJR (was it RJR or is my memory playing tricks?) asked years ago about Goedel's Theorem. Halakhah is immune from Goedel's Theorem: Halakhah on the Divrei Elokim Chaim / dialectic level allows for Eilu veEilu. THere is no Law of Contradiciton, A and not-A can both be Torah, so Goedel's proof fails. Halakhah lemaaseh is not a closed formal system, because -- as I am arguing in this thread -- history matters. It's not a clean room exercise detatched from the realia the poseiq and sho'el/alim are living in. More info from the outside can influence the answer. It's not the kind of system math is, so Goedel's proof fails here too. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:10:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200108201057.GB3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 07:14:21AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: >> We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them >> as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, >> it should be done by example. > Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" > (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish > human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner > consistent with the will of HKB"H... In R' Wolbe's essay titled "Frumkeit" (Alei Shur vol II, available at ), he quotes the Alter of Slabodka as saying "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." The frum person is the one who makes sure to have Shabbos guests each week, but whose guests end up feeling much like his tefillin -- an object with which he did a mitzvah. A person acting out of frumkeit doesn't love to love, he loves in order to be a holier person. And ironically, he thereby fails -- because he never develops that Image of the Holy One he was created to become. The person who acts from self-interest, even from the interest of ascending closer to G-d, will not reach Him. (Taken from my blog post at .) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Thus excellence is not an event, Author: Widen Your Tent but a habit. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aristotle From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 9 11:45:06 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 19:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? Message-ID: >From today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? A. If a person owns their home, they are obligated to put mezuzos on the door as soon as they occupy the home (see Gilyon Maharsha YD 286:22). At what point is one considered an occupant? If one moves furniture and other belongings into a home, but has not actually started living in the house, there is a dispute between the poskim whether a mezuzah is required. The Chovas Hadar (13, footnote 10) assumes there is an obligation, while Rabbi Aharon Felder, in Oholei Yeshurun (page 6, fn 69) quotes other poskim who say the mitzvah begins only when one resides in the home. Shulchan Aruch (YD 236:22) rules that if one rents a house or apartment in the Diaspora, the requirement to put up mezuzos begins after 30 days have elapsed ? on the 31st day (the day of the move counts as day one, even if it is only a partial day.) The Derech Chaim disagrees and maintains that if the lease is for more than 30 days, the obligation to post mezuzos begins immediately. Though most poskim agree with the Shulchan Aruch that there is no obligation to post a mezuzah within 30 days under all circumstances, nonetheless the Magen Avrohom suggests that it is permissible to put a mezuzah on the wall during the first thirty days and recite a bracha. By doing so, the opinion of the Derech Chaim will be covered. The Nachalas Tzvi (286:22) objects to the suggestion of the Magen Avrohom and maintains that the bracha cannot be recited before the mitzvah is obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein (YD 1:179) offers a solution that covers all bases. He recommends putting up the mezuzos (to satisfy the opinion of the Derech Chaim) without a bracha (in deference to the Nachalas Tzvi). After 30 days the mezuzos should be removed, or at least slightly pushed, and then a bracha is required. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 10 06:22:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Askara In-Reply-To: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> References: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200110142208.GA29555@aishdas.org> Talmudology is a blog by R Jeremy Brown on science and gemara, following the daf yomi. (His wife is the known author on Torah topics, Dr Erica Brown.) In this installment, for Berakhos 8a (tomorrow's daf) http://www.talmudology.com/jeremybrownmdgmailcom/2020/1/8/berachot-8a-what-is-askera-and-why-does-it-kill-you or http://bit.ly/36EBBHy RJB rules out the usual translation of "askara" as "croup", since even in their day it wasn't likely to be fatal. Instead, he finds that diphtheria, epiglottitis and quincy fit the gemara's description and suggests it was one of those. Adding another suggestion we're discussed here during the omer in years past: R Sheira Gaon (She'iltos 1:1) says "askara" refers to the sicarii, literally: daggers, but the name was given to the dagger-bearing class of Roman soldiers. His context is the death of R' Aqiva's students by askara; he says they died at the Romans' hands. But, to quote Koren's translation of the gemara, minus the word "croup": [Askara] is like a thorn entangled in a wool fleece, which, when pulled out backwards, tears the wool. Some say that [askara] is like ropes at the entrance to the esophagus, which would be nearly impossible to insert and excruciating to remove. I cannot believe R' Sherira Gaon didn't have an answer for the description in this gemara. Maybe askara is an actual illness that in that one story was being used euphemistically? Or maybe the Romans took to shechting or garroting their victims, r"l? :-)BBii! -Micha PS: Below is a very helpful signature quote, for those of us who spend a lot of time "talking" about things online. -- Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every http://www.aishdas.org/asp argument and to always be right. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Nassan of Breslav - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Likutei Tefilos 94:964 From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 05:52:08 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: > Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." < One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 14 08:32:32 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Adopting Outside the Community Message-ID: <20200114163231.GA17990@aishdas.org> In , or https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/politics-current-affairs/2020/01/why-orthodox-jews-have-been-hesitant-to-adopt-outside-their-community-and-why-they-shouldnt-be/ Malka Groden ("a domestic-adoption advocate in the American Jewish community") writes and article titled: Why Orthodox Jews Have Been Hesitant to Adopt Outside Their Community, and Why They Shouldn't Be I am posting to Avodah because I am including her summaries of points made by RMMS (about the duty to raise nitzotzos, including those in non-Jews) and by RYBS (from Family Redeemed about natural vs covenantal parenthood). And afterwood, the thoughts I had on the subject of adopting non-Jews, developing since the days when we did. ... There is, however, one group of American Jews who are indeed marrying young, having children, and building families deeply connected to Jewish communal infrastructure through synagogues, schools, and a broad range of support organizations. That group comprises both the Charedim and the [M]odern Orthodox... In recent decades, indeed, the Orthodox world has become adept at devising arrangements in support of individuals and families going through life's most significant challenges: medical crises, infertility, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, and more. The organization In Shifra's Arms, for example, supports, emotionally, practically, and financially, Jewish women facing unplanned pregnancies; for another example, the Jewish Children's Adoption Network has placed thousands of Jewish babies with special needs in Jewish homes nationwide. But there's the rub: float within Orthodox precincts any suggestion of becoming involved with the issue of foster care and adoption in the larger society, and the initial response will likely be, "But those children aren't Jewish. Why is this a Jewish cause?" ... [The Lubavitcher] Rebbe taught that Jews are tasked with revealing not only their own "divine spark" but also the divine spark that resides within each human being, Jew and non-Jew alike. Thus, among Chabad's initiatives was a campaign to include, at the start of each day in the nation's public schools, a moment of silence during which all children would have an opportunity to contemplate their own purpose and responsibilities. Similarly, the Rebbe pushed for criminal-justice reform--stressing that those incarcerated must be given the chance for rehabilitation so that they too can return to their God-given mission in life--at a time when this issue did not command the broad consensus it enjoys today. Both of these projects, geared simultaneously toward Jews and the broader community, reflected the Rebbe's firmly activist view of the essential worth of each human being. With a proper moral foundation and education, he held, every individual, however highly or humbly situated, has the potential to grow and reveal his or her own divine spark. It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home. Meanwhile, Rabbi Soloveitchik, coming at the issue from his own direction, devoted an entire volume of essays, Family Redeemed, to the theme of family relationships. In one of these essays, he describes two forms of parenthood. The first form, "natural parenthood," is represented by Adam and Eve. The motherhood of Eve is instinctual and all-consuming; her entire being is involved, through the nine months of pregnancy and onward through the physical and biological demands of childbirth and child rearing. For Adam, by contrast, fathering a child makes no biological claims at all; after the child's birth, he is free to act exactly as he did before. With Abraham and Sarah, a new form--"covenantal" or "redeemed" parenthood--is revealed. For the first time, fatherhood demands something of men: Abraham must serve as an educator, molding his children and the next generation. In this mission, Sarah, the redeemed mother, joins him as partner and essential link in the transmission of the covenant. Separate from the biological demands made on her as a mother, motherhood takes on a larger ethical meaning to which she in turn makes a free commitment. At the start of the Jewish people's history, God confers on the first foremother and forefather the chance to move beyond the innate ties of biology and assume a trans-generational mission. ... By learning from the remarkable work done by American Christians, and by actualizing the core Jewish mission through the redemptive power of the Jewish family, American Jews can begin to help bring healing to a generation of children wounded and forgotten. I am not a huge fan of focusing on the need for homes as a motive for adoption. I am afraid of too many children being taken on as chessed projects rather than letting a normal parent-child relationship develop. But let me focus on Avodah material. If someone wants to adopt in order to continue their mimetic line, (along with the joys and the aggravations of parenting -- kind of like gilu bir'adah) the halakhos are simpler and cleaner when adopting a non-Jewish child. The giyur will be al daas beis din, and the parents are apitrupusei beis din. There is actually a halachically recognized tie between parents and adopted child, and the chinukh you provide is a chiyuv. (Not the chiyuv of "veshinantam levanekha", but still, a chiyuv.) That said, I still think aniyei irekha qodmin -- as long as there are Jewish children to be found, in today's climate of Open Adoption the halachic issues are generally resolvable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair: http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while, Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:32:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) Message-ID: My comment on a hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) shiur: imho an example of trying to codify something that is primarily mimetic. 100 shiurim can't take the place of role models who demonstrate how to know when it will be accepted and how time and place define when to dig in your heels on what issues. Also how you evaluate the impact on the individual vs. the community. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:35:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:35:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hedgehog? Message-ID: On R' Gil Perl's hedgehog piece https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ : I would agree that if MO's goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys' rabbeim's question as to why I just didn't put on a black hat ,is that I just don't think it's what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 20th century) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t613k at aol.com Tue Jan 14 22:42:12 2020 From: t613k at aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> In Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1 dated 1/4/2020? >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinksthat the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... <>>> This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against Orthodox Jews for 200 years.? But this accusation is simply not true.? We Orthodox Jews should not internalize the false image that our enemies have of us.? This belief that our enemies are right about us reflects a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.? Since we are all human beings, of course we all have our faults.? But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <>? In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim? --Toby Katzt613k at aol.com ============= ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 15 05:39:53 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <> --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com I would simply say community should be judged by the following ???- Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying.-Ralph Waldo Emerson Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 06:23:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] =?iso-8859-1?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Adam=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200115142357.GA30570@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 06:42:12AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote: >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, >> thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... > > This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against > Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against > Orthodox Jews for 200 years... And the Semag made against us 700 yearts ago, in asei #74. In explaining why, lemaaseh, one does have to return an aveidas aku"m, he writes , tr. mine so see it in the original at the link: I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain and the rest of Goliyos Edom that now that the exile has gone on far too long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of the world and grab onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not commit sin, do not speak lies, and one won't find a false tongue in their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them, the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People] for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesn't plant a kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One, blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves with trickery, who will attach to them? And R Breuer, 69 years ago, wrote "`Glatt Kosher -- Glatt Yoshor" because he felt a need to remind people that the latter is more important than the former (translation via RYL). To give just the closing: We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for "Glatt Kosher" with an equally intensive one for "Glatt Yoshor." This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13): "The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." As for the wonderful things our community does, a couple of theories: While my negative stereotype is truer than RnTK will admit to herself, it is still just a generalization. The number of people running and participating in those gema"chs, bikur cholim, the chevrah.... they don't total anywhere near half of us. Second, there is just being a religious community. Compare ourselves to another Middle or Upper-Middle class religious community. Look at chessed among actual aku"m like the Mormons. And yet we have the Emes! And we have a system that shapes our lives to inclucate that Emes, from what we eat to how we put on our shoes! Third, bein adam lachaveiro also has a BALM aspect, and we do see signs that it is that aspect that drives much of the chessed. Like the numerous articles by BT, singles, people who rely on Shabbos hospitality, who so often leave feeling like they served as an esrog, a cheftza shel mitzvah. The Alter of Slabodka says something related, about the lishmah of BALC (found quoted in Alei Shur vol II, tr. mine): "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning, http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to Author: Widen Your Tent mend." - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Jan 15 05:56:18 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira Message-ID: <006801d5cbab$90687a70$b1396f50$@touchlogic.com> https://lehavin.org/ At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both topics and keyword searches From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Jan 15 11:27:46 2020 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: <6757A82F-25CA-46D9-A1F0-1C001AA62A5B@tenzerlunin.com> I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh, brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore BALC in the face of BALM. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:56 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: R'n TK writes: "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?" R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Indeed, there is the rub. We learn one thing, but how much do we practice? Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters. An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring home to the shabbos table, and what-not. It was a terrific program. (I have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome -- see https://projectderech.org/). My kids, B"H, are still positively effected by that program. I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15 years ago or so (IIRC) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:55:44 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha Message-ID: R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted? But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha will NOT be accepted? Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until that standard is met the duty remains. We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands of sheep, stole this one sheep etc. The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous. In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even though they did not seek his forgiveness? as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct. Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all circumstances to be a Chassid? Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch. One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national history. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 19:00:45 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are > shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many > questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon > harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? Other illustrations: 1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha. And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff. This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus. 3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by self-identifying as "frum". Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And which one isn't given kibudim in shul? 3- Newspaper headlines. Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that impression, although most boys do. And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust. So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know I was the exception. 4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there. And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro. Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are middos seen as an end in themselves? 5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!" That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut the line in and of itself, doesn't work. And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe http://www.aishdas.org/asp you can be certain of improving, Author: Widen Your Tent and that's your own self. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aldous Huxley From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 18:40:35 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tochachah until when? Message-ID: <20200116024035.GA7698@aishdas.org> So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6) who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9 . I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else. So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo? How do these two issues shtim together? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 17 09:42:58 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro In-Reply-To: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> References: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200117174258.GA9251@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: >> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are >> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many >> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon >> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? > Other illustrations: Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was triggered. The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael". There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos) which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment): Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t) See a daf image at https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_36079_73.pdf or http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2864&size=2 It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions, nor even Sefaria (see "No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")! :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 18 16:53:29 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo Message-ID: <20200119005329.GA12632@aishdas.org> Times of Israel or https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-at-shiloh-archaeologist-finds-artifacts-hinting-at-biblical-tabernacle/ As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including in full): Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh Jan. 17 2020 According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio, 33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.) https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/742731340&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true -micha From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 19 12:53:49 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question Message-ID: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 19 08:26:56 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? Message-ID: Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father, and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says -- that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These [...] From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 19 22:20:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? _______________________________________________ IMHO 1. Make sure the ba'al kore gets proper medical treatment 2. clean up any mess 3. if the ba'al kore can't continue, get a substitute Now if the oleh is the one bleeding, it's probably a bigger issue. See S"A O"C 140 KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Jan 20 04:48:53 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200120124853.GB13148@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 03:53:49PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > A colleague asked me the following question and I had > no answer. > If the ba'al kore is reading the Torah and either has a > nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer > to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? RJR focused on the leining. But I saw the question as being more about the kashrus of the Torah with the blood on it. Ink spills, which are actually black, do not invalidate a sefer Torah -- as long as the letters remain intact. Now that I think of it, although I do not remember this case in the AhS -- maybe also as long as the ink itself doesn't look like an inserted letter? Blood that is red or brown could invalidate a letter too. Or so I am deducing from the case of black letters that had gold painted on top of them (eg in an attempt to glorify Hashem's name) -- the gold has to be removed. So it seems you have to see the black ink. But I do not think any of my speculation about added letters would apply. And in any case, it should be cleaned up simply out of respect for the Torah. ---- I also had thoughts about tum'ah. And so I wrote the below. But I don't think the blood in either scenario (nose bleed or paper cut) is tamei even to begin with. Struck me after I wrote it, in comparison to dam niddah. Still, I invested time, and there are things in it that might inform, so I didn't delete. There is a derabbanan to treat a seifer Torah as if it were tamei. This was to prevent a practice that became commonplace, that of storing all the holy things together. But rodents would come to eat the terumah, and naw on any scrolls nearby. But once they told the masses that the seifer Torah is not only tamei, but can be metamai one's hands too much for handling terumah, that ended. However, a seifer Torah cannot really become tamei. All of this is about treating it as though tamei. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, http://www.aishdas.org/asp if only because it offers us the opportunity of Author: Widen Your Tent self-fulfilling prophecy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Arthur C. Clarke From rabbiknopf at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:12:57 2020 From: rabbiknopf at yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> I've read this recent discussion with great interest. Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious community. I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's?What You Don?t Know About the Ultra-Orthodox - Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other articles:?Values and Religiosity?and?Charitable Giving Among Britain's Jews. And see also this page from?The Jewish Mind. With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a genuine problem (and therefore a challenge). I think it is true that fewer sheilos are asked in bein adam lechavero. I agree that both the occurrence and the communal reaction to scandals in bein adam lechavero are telling and disconcerting.? As Rabbi Berger acknowledges, there are different approaches within our mesorah in understanding the place of bein adam lechavero. Which ever approach one takes, there is room for much more serious thought as to how to reduce the gap between values and communal practice. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:09 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:13:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority Message-ID: A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a)remains silent or (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth 1. What percentage of people would take each course? (orthodox vs. non? 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:48:14 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero In-Reply-To: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200128214814.GD29555@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote: > Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the > frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't > simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious > community. > > I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About > the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other > articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's > Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind. > > With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a > genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)... I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest. What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox is at or https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/what-you-dont-know-about-the-ultra-orthodox/ From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:45:28 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128214528.GC29555@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until > that standard is met the duty remains. > > We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to > many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's > the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds > are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts > to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to > succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which > Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal). So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without the help of finding sources. The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the pasuq: Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha velo savo alav cheit. (The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for how you perceive what they did to you.) However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So, the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them into meizidim means you can't do it. But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how. That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty, even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or someone who hears the story will be influenced. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 14:20:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder) only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so we're talking about 1.8 oz. The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk. HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so. Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot. Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with te'imah. Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which "fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is. The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:35:55 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128213555.GA29555@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote: >> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." > One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and > loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. To me shilush refers to the human condition. When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face. Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.) The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3. Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz. Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give. The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others. The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above. Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:53:07 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128215307.GE29555@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony > that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or > (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth ... > 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif they did, the testimony is void? Li nir'eh: We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma. And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 29 11:53:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> References: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200129195327.GD10165@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com When we discussed this topic a decade ago (10-Oct-2009), R/Dr Prof Levine pointed us to a copy he kept of an article by R/Dr Ari Zivotofsky at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf Tir'u baTov! -Micha From sholom at aishdas.org Sun Feb 2 11:43:54 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Which parsha...? Message-ID: <1580762914542.2f7d92c33c16fe9c@aishdas.org> Someone in shul mused to me that parshas Ve'eria sure had a whole lot of mentions of H's name, and was wondering if that parsha had more mentions than any other parsha. I told him: I don't know, but I have some ideas on who/where to ask! Thoughts? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 4 19:14:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 03:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? Message-ID: In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 5 08:04:04 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ce3160-8d3b-c3a9-9e5d-e781c8bd03c7@sero.name> On 4/2/20 10:14 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R?Gil Student wrote about R?C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? According to the Rosh, at least, the minhag of most (nowadays all) Chu"l communities saying tal umatar as if they were in Iraq is mistaken, and he tried his best to change it in Spain, but faced such massive opposition that he gave up and accepted the status quo. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 5 09:57:59 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE Message-ID: This morning while shopping I noted that many types of Arnold's bread now bear on OU DE instead of OU Pareve. The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Q. Is one permitted to bake DE (Dairy Equipment) bread? For example, may one bake bread on a baking pan that was previously used to bake cheese danishes? A. (The OU recently focused on this issue, as a major bread manufacturer certified by the OU requested authorization to produce OU-DE certified bread. Click here to read Rabbi Genack?s extensive teshuva on this topic.) The Pischei Teshuva (YD 97:5) rules that bread baked on dairy equipment may be consumed. He reasons that as follows: Chazal (Pesachim 46a) forbade eating dairy bread as a gezaira (a prohibitive measure), lest one forgets the dairy status of the bread and consumes it with meat. This concern is valid when the bread contains actual dairy ingredients. However, when the bread is baked on dairy equipment, the bread is technically pareve according to the Rama, but as a chumra (an extra stringency), the bread may not be eaten with meat. Bidi?eved (after the fact), the Rama agrees that DE bread mixed with meat may be consumed. The possibility that one might not remember the status of DE bread is much less of a concern than for bread that contains actual dairy, and therefore there is no restriction on consuming DE bread. This reasoning is valid according to the Rama (95:2) who allows DE items mixed with meat bidi?eved. However, the Shach (quoted in a previous Halacha Yomis) rules that pareve items baked or roasted on dairy equipment are fully dairy and may not be consumed with meat even bidi?eved. Accordingly, the Shach would forbid all consumption of DE bread. As previously noted, many poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan (95:12), are not in agreement with the Shach. We will now address the second question about bread baked on a cheese danish pan. Are pans used to bake cheese danish treated as dairy? Interestingly, this depends on how the danish was prepared. If the cheese remained inside the dough, the pan would not have the status of actual dairy, and bread baked on the pan can be eaten with pareve or dairy foods. However, if the cheese leaked out of the danish onto the pan, the Shach would consider the pan to be actual dairy even bidi?eved, and bread baked subsequently would be forbidden. ___________________________________________ Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:41:50 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim Message-ID: Questions from (another) guy in my shul: On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is trying to annul or alleviate. (And either the P"Y, or R Rosner, suggest that perhaps this is why when a crisis is facing the community, we engage in tefilla and/or recitation of tehillim). (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the chiddush in that? Do I need R Eazar to tell me that? Or, perhaps R Elazar is saying: you can do all the ma'asim tovim you want, but without tefilla, it's not going to help? But I digress....) That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. Is there any intersection of thought -- is there any influence or stira -- of R Elazar's statements to this order of words? And why does R Elazar seemingly ignore teshuva? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:43:55 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good place to ask ;-) Thoughts, anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 5 18:59:15 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 02:59:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E809B88-1E18-4EBE-84F2-BA7F5BC94544@Segalco.com> Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. -/?????????? Some context is important. As I understand it for many years the OU Used the DE designation and then changed policy because they thought it was too confusing. This led to a time Where they fielded many questions (maybe unofficially? )about what the D really meant and many people used products as if they were DE. Now apparently they?ve gone back to issuing the DE. I think a consumer awareness campaign would be worthwhile I personally prefer having the DE designation available so that people don?t just decide on their own based on the ingredients. Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:08:01 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206200801.GA20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:43:55AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for > us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did > H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good > place to ask ;-) Well, if you don't take Bereishis 1 as history, or you believe in Omphalism ("the universe was created old, as though it all happened" -- RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements. The universe's size also is an effect of the kind of Inflation and Big Bang we had, or H' made a universe as thought we had. The same thing that set up many other things in physics, and is subject to our laws of physics. Which in turn would mean that to have the physics we do, we would need a universe of a certain size. (Or a universe that was obviously created in a "puff" of neis.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:24:09 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206202409.GB20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:41:50AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, > and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's > talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers > that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is > trying to annul or alleviate... Which fits the context; the gemara is talking about Moshe davening to come to EY. > (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with > tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the > chiddush in that? ... So the Penei Yeoshua tell you to look in the Maharsha and the Mahari Pinto, who ask just your question -- of course T + MT > T. And also, why go to Moshe who excelled at everything, not the clearest maqor for this kind of comparison. The PY only gives his own answer -- obviously the sekhar of MT is greater, as they involve many mitzvos. Even if tefillah is deOraisa, which he notes is unclear. Rather, it is specifically WRT getting out of a gezeira ra'ah. Barukh shekivanta! My reaction: We're talking about Moshe level davening, and it's still not enough without maasim tovim?! The Ben Yehoyada (ad loc) says that the intent is Avos 5:21, "kol hamzakeh es harabim, tekhus harabim talui bo". So the gemara is saying that the tefillah of someone with maasim tovim is greater than the maasim tovim in and of their own zekhuyos. > That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana > Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. And the next line in the gemara is R Elazar saying that taanis is greater than tzedaqah -- because it is done with his body, and tzedaqah is done with his money. Remember the Machzorim that have the words tzom, qol, mamon over teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, and they're all there. Tzom is a maaseh associated with teshuvah. BUT... The next line after that, also R Elazar, says that tefillah is greater that qorbanos. If the gemara were working with teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, this quote wouldn't be here, it breaks the symbolism. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:33:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206203333.GC20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 03:14:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue > I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue > since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were > all holy) There are at least two ways you can ascribe importance to mimetic precedent, whether minhag or accepted pesaq, or any other of the looser usages of the word "minhag": 1- "Im lo neviim heim benei neviim heim" or "she'reis Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" mean that there is siyata diShmaya involved in what Jews end up doing. And thus Retzon haBorei blesses such practices. (In some way that doesn't violate lo bashamayim hi. Just as a poseiq's siyata diShmaya doesn't.) 2- The lack of rabbinic objection shows that generations of rabbanim found textual support for the practice. Which would rule out practices where we have a record of rabbinic protests. I brought up #2 in the early days of Avodah, when R/Dr Meir Shinnar used a mimetic argument to prove that sei'ar be'ishah ervah is das Yehudis and changes with the fashion. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I want to do it." - is weak. Author: Widen Your Tent "I am doing it." - that is the right way. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 05:00:41 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] New Haggada Available Message-ID: A new edition is now available of my "Achieving Immortality - A Haggada for Re-Experiencing the Exodus". My main goal in this Haggada is to avoid anything that would distract us from "seeing ourselves as if we left Egypt ourselves." For example, the peirushim are incorporated into the translation and instructions, rather than being relegated to the bottom of the page. Extensive footnotes for supplementary material are accessible on the bottom of each page, but for the seder itself they are in the back of the book, to be less distracting. It is available online at Lulu.com, where anyone can find it by searching for the title and/or my name. It is available in three bindings: hardcover, paperback, and a coil-bound version (which is my family's favorite because it lies flat with no effort, so yet another distraction is avoided). All three have the exact same 200-page interior. SPECIAL HALF-PRICE pricing for Avodah readers is available if you use these links: Softcover $5.97 at https://tinyurl.com/SoftcoverHaggada Coilbound $7.47 at https://tinyurl.com/CoilboundHaggada Hardcover $12.97 at https://tinyurl.com/HardcoverHaggada (plus tax and shipping, obviously) You can often get it even cheaper! Lulu often (but usually only from Monday to Thursday) offers coupon codes that you can use when you check out and pay. You can go to Lulu.com and look for the popup notice, or you can try the frequently-offered codes LULU10 (for 10% off) or ONEFIVE (for 15% off). If you'd like to see a sample of this Haggada, to better judge how much my style fits yours, you can download a 25-page sample at https://www.dropbox.com/s/eizebhfa5qtfpwo/Haggada%202020%20Excerpts.pdf?dl=0 or https://tinyurl.com/v27cwtt Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 17:41:39 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:41:39 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Joel Rich asked Message-ID: < BL0PR02MB37454F2E5D8D2B1D2559773EBF020 at BL0PR02MB3745.namprd02.prod.outlook.com > Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hankman at bell.net Thu Feb 6 21:01:17 2020 From: hankman at bell.net (hank) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 00:01:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: <20200207050117.JFSZ16482.mtlspm02.bell.net@[IPv6:::ffff:192.168.2.56]> RMB wrote: ?RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements.? That is plausible for stars within our galaxy, but not for the billions of stars in billions of galaxies far outside the milkyway galaxy. Those heavy elements could never reach us in this galaxy. Should we postulate intelligent beings in each of those distant galaxies with their own relationship to G-d for whom their stars supply heavy elements to? Kol tuv, Chaim Manaster Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Fri Feb 7 07:43:50 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/20 8:41 pm, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > > But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the > repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - > one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. 1. As I understand it he succeeded, within his area of influence, and chazarat hashatz disappeared for several centuries, until at least the Radvaz's times. (Though his takana was only for Shacharit/Musaf on Shabbat, and for Mincha only if it was getting late.) 2. More importantly it's not an example of this phenomenon because it was *not* an incorrect minhag. Not even the Rambam claimed it was incorrect. The Rambam simply thought a new problem had arisen, which required a new takanah invoking eit laasot to override this correct minhag. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From meirabi at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 17:37:26 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:37:26 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - Talking During Tefillah, That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Zev Message-ID: suggested that RaMBaM, at least within his area of influence, succeeded in cancelling the Chazoras HaShaTz, and we assume also thereby reduced the talking during Tefillah. However, during the Radvaz's times, Ch HaShaTz was reintroduced which only reinforces the notion that Mistaken Minhagim, even if they can be temporarily abated, cannot be stopped Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinlbrody at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 21:49:16 2020 From: martinlbrody at gmail.com (Martin Brody) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:49:16 -0800 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minchagim.... Message-ID: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Cheers, Martin Brody "Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazze Meir G. Rabi From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Tue Feb 11 01:17:50 2020 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:17:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 10, 2020 02:03:22 pm Message-ID: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Talking during prayer is not a minhag. It is a hanhagah (Hebrew, like every language, has nuanced near-synonyms in matters of importance to its speakers). Jews do not talk during prayer thinking "this is how Jews should conduct themselves", or even "this is how Jews conduct themselves", and those cognitions are part of the definition of the word "minhag". The original poster asked for mistaken minhagim, which originated in the hamon `am, and which were subsequently tolerated by the scholarly class. Talking during prayer is not a mistaken minhag, because it is not a minhag at all. A minhag that satisfies the original poster's question -- as has already been pointed out by another contributor to this mailing list -- is praying for rain, not when you need rain, but when the people of Iraq need rain. Other minhagim that satisfy the original poster's question are wearing costumes on Purim, or not cutting a boy's hair till he is three years old. And there are numerous other idolatrous practices and superstitions that are found among Jews, like tugging your ear after you sneeze, or not walking over a baby, and if you do walk over a baby, then walking backwards over the baby to undo the walking forwards. If you read classic Yiddish literature, you will learn many minhagim regarding sickness which clearly belong to the category of "halloxesh `al hammakkah" but which were nearly universal among the Jews depicted in that literature, and which are not condemned by the Yiddish-speaking scholarly class even now. The practice of not eating kitniyyoth (deliberately left untranslated) on Passover also originated in the hamon `am, and was later ratified, and even codified, by the scholarly class, but I would abolish it if I could, because, inter alia, it makes it more expensive to observe Passover, and God cares about the property of His people. There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An example of this category is the practice of earning a living from teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. An even more odious example is the practice of "kollel", which involves paying people, not even to teach Torah, but just to learn it. This is not only prohibited by Jewish law, but also condemned in the strongest terms; yet the scholarly class have taken a prohibition, and turned it into a commandment, because it benefits them. A third example is draft exemptions for yeshiva students, even though -- as has been pointed out before on this mailing list -- the halakha clearly states that "bmilxemeth mitzva hakkol yotz'im, afilu xathan mixedro vkhallah mixupathah". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:43:23 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minhagim Message-ID: R' Martin Brody wrote: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Rambam's rejection can be distinguished from what we do now. The Rambam also held that we never change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta?am tachton, and so it appears we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with ta?am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, in which case it?s perfectly fine to stand. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:45:42 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah Message-ID: The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he does so here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Feb 11 10:20:47 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58288555-F618-4C81-866B-E853B664DA8C@cox.net> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who consistently stood for the entire leining. I would assume that was their minhag. The other thing I learned that many of my peers did not know and that was the halacha regarding whether you stand for the sh?ma or sit. The answer is if you are already sitting, you remain seated and conversely, if you are already standing, you remain standing. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 11 14:34:55 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should they daven? what else should they do?)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 14 08:25:30 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:25:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I typically eat only cholov Yisrael products. Accidentally, I bought a cereal that is labeled OU-D. I checked with the OU?s Webbe Rebbe (Kosherq at OU.org) and was told the cereal does not contain actual dairy, but it is made on dairy equipment. I opened the box, and I can no longer return it to the store. May I eat the cereal? A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot must be kashered before it is re-used. Nonetheless, there are various positions among poskim regarding food that was cooked in cholov akum pots in our contemporary times. The issue revolves around the current status of commercial milk. It is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l and other contemporary poskim held that the prohibition of cholov akum does not apply to commercial milk which is regulated and monitored by government agencies. Others reject this leniency. Still a third group are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As such, there are the following positions: * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position on commercial milk would obviously have no problem cooking in pots used for cholov stam. (Cholov stam is milk that was not supervised by a mashgiach, but was produced in a dairy that is monitored for purity by government inspectors.) * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a chumrah (stringency). This position is further split into two camps with respect to cholov stam keilim : Some are stringent only regarding actual cholov stam, but are lenient with respect to cholov stam keilim. This was the position of Rav Henkin, zt?l (Teshuvos Ivra 43). Others maintained the same stringency applies to keilim as well. Rav Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan HaLevi 22:5) writes that this was the position of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt?l. Nonetheless, one can argue that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would allow using a cholov stam pot that may have been unused for 24 hours. The basis for this is the Shach (YD 119:20) who writes that if a person has a chumra that his neighbor does not observe, he may still eat food that was cooked in his neighbors pot, so long as the food was not cooked specifically for him (i.e., the food was also cooked for those who are not strict), and it is not known if the pot was used in the past 24 hours. A similar argument can be made to permit the cereal in our original question, since it was already purchased, and it is not known if the equipment was used for dairy in the past 24 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 07:30:09 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] HALF A SHEKEL IS BETTER THAN NONE Message-ID: <29FD8EA8-0052-4B93-ACD1-422064094773@cox.net> As you know, this Shabbos is Shabbos Shekalim as well as Shabbos M'vorchim. I'm reminded of the Hazzan who was chanting the Rosh Chodesh Bentching and was very careful not to repeat words. But he had to fit the melody to the prayer so he sang ".....chayim she parnoso, chayim shel shekalim....." At least the uninformed realized it was Shabbos Shekalim. The Mishna Meg. 3:4 explains in the days of the monarchy, the shekel tax had become a permanent institution, and its proceeds together with other freewill offerings were used to maintain and repair the Temple (ll Kings 12:15-17; 22:3-7). Since the shekel tax was due on the first of Nisan, the Rabbis ordained that this section (30:11-16) be read as an added Torah portion about a month before: on the Shabbos before the new moon of Adar or on Rosh Chodesh itself, if it fell on Shabbos. Because of this added reading the Sabbath has become known as Shabbos Shekalim. (There is also a talmudic treatise called Shekalim). L?havdil, as a side, Christian Scriptures, Matthew 17:27, notes that Peter paid the tax for both himself and his master. The Zionist movement at its first congress (1897) revived the shekel as a common expression of support for Eretz Yisroel. The number of shekel holders became an indication of the strength of political Zionism. There were 165,000 in 1907 and in 1946 there were 2,160,000. In Yalkut Me'am Lo'ez. Sh?mos, Vol.lll, pp. 1068-1069, the question is asked why the sum chosen for expiation was fixed at one-half shekel (30:15). The reason was because Joseph had been sold into Egypt by his brothers for twenty dinars, i.e. five shekels. There being ten brothers, this amounted to a profit of one-half shekel for each. Another explanation: It was expiation for the sin of the golden calf. (Though this sin is told later, in chapter 32, the comment is based on the talmudic principle of Ein mukdam um'uchar baTorah. This same issue is raised in Mishpatim because Ch.24 shifts from the laws, that have been the subject of the Sidrah, back to the Revelation at Sinai. There is a machlokes among the m'forshim regarding when the events in this chapter took place. According to Rashi, the events recorded in verses 1-11 occurred before the Ten Commandments were given. Ramban, Ibn ezra, Rashbam, among others, maintain that these events took place after Israel had received the Ten Commandments and Moses had taught them the laws of the previous 3 chapters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 12:52:19 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 15:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag Message-ID: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> I?m not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until ?Im kesef talve.? And the second week is the second half. I don?t know which haftarah they use for the second week. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 17 20:52:17 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag In-Reply-To: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> References: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200218045217.GA2684@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 03:52:19PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely > a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot > read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until "Im > kesef talve." And the second week is the second half. I don't know which > haftarah they use for the second week. I had always wondered why the standard chapterization of the Seifer haChinukh starts a new parashash there. I was wondering if this was an actual minhag, or just a way to split up the 52 mitzvos that are in Mishpatim to more managable chapters. Now I know! Thanks. The Chinukh was written by R Aharon haLeci in Barcelona in the 13th cent. Although the chapterization may be far later, so I don't know what that says about the scope and evolution of that minhag. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 18 13:51:24 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim Message-ID: Heard in a daf yomi shiur -- R Sholom Rosner was: -- critical of minhag of oleh to not say birkas hatorah on tochacha -- critical of the minhag that women don't make a mezumin when they are three on their own; or, if with 10 men, not answering the mizumin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:23:05 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:23:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:25:46 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers Message-ID: I spent some time looking for commentaries explaining the focus on the donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers. I realize it's probably projection but I came up with two possibilities. The first was that many places the donkey seems to be taking somebody to their destiny (Think avraham Moshe bilaam......)I was thinking when they might've been concerned that they would be unable to fulfill theirs My other thought was that they represented technological extensions Of human ability ( think vcivshuha) And they would be unable to fulfill their human capabilities and be no more than another animal Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at chamor and saw chomer(material world) Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 20 11:11:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200220191100.GA15866@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:23:05AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: > But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? In terms of the tech, we're not close yet, and may never be. To weave a derashah into my explanation of that sentence, the word "binah" can refer to thought in at least two ways: - from "bein", the art of making distinctions -- bein qodesh lekhol, bein or lechoshekh... Being able to characterize this as an A, that as a B, this is spam, this is not spam. And when things are not separated: this A and B share features that would allow them to belong to the same font, whereas that A & B are in another. Finding the limits of sets, to know what to separate. That's what AI is now doing. Using what boils down to a lot of linear algebra to draw lines between sets using known examples of what's in and what's out. That can be obvious in cases of AI reading CT or MRI scans. But that is also how automous vehicles decide when to change lanes, accelerate, or whatnot. There are two sets: a right time and a wrong time. - from "binyan", the art of combining facts. Whether making deductions of the sort you did formally in Geomatry class, or inductions -- figuring out that those sets even exist. There is AI that does binyan-binah. It is very simple, generally just searching the space of possibilities until it hits sueccess (as defined for it). That's not what ML is about, and it's not where we are close to the commercial application. And may never be. Then there is informal thought. Conclusions you can only reach because you not only have a concept of red in your head, but you know what it is like to see red. (Apologies to the color blind for that example.) In terms of hashkafah... I argued that lo bashamayim hee has more to do with whose hands halakhh is in than whose it isn't. A pesaq can only come from someone who (to jump ahead to the end of the statement) "befikha ublivavkha la'asoso". Related to that knowing what red is *like*, knowing what moral is *like* is arguably a fundamental element of what a poseiq brings to the question. And even if that argument fails hashkafically, halachically pro forma a poseiq must be a mentally competent Jewish male adult who you believed has the appropriate knowledge, ability and experience (experiential knowledge?). It's the difference between whether any error would be your aveira beshogeig or your doing the right thing in following a pesaq. (And the the case of a human poseiq, their shogeig.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything. http://www.aishdas.org/asp If you want time, you must make it. Author: Widen Your Tent - Charles Buxton - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From cantorwolberg at cox.net Fri Feb 21 05:54:14 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Purim Twist Message-ID: <810C4798-B74F-40A2-B8AA-1CF357667DF4@cox.net> 1) We're all familiar with the custom and law of making much noise when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the Megilla. The standard answer to why we do it is to drown out his name. I see another reason. We must make a lot of noise against EVIL. Haman, a descendant of Amalek, is evil personified. We cannot be silent in the face of evil. We must yell, shout, and make all the noise we can. (Does this sound timely)? 2) If we were asked the etymology of the word "Megilla," we would say it comes from the word galal, "to roll." The word gelila, "wrapping the Torah" also comes from the same root. I came across a nice midrashic twist. As we know the word "Esther" has as its root "samech, tof, reish" for hidden. Interestingly, Megilla has been explained to have the root giluy, which means "revealed." Hence, we have a major theme for the Megilla -- revealing that which is hidden. From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Feb 21 07:49:15 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: "Rich, Joel" wrote: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article (to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts. In it, he talks about future possibilities. https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/ (PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form already.) It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether the machine-made connections make sense or not. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 11:58:18 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: > There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon > `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned > by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An > example of this category is the practice of earning a living from > teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like the Rambam. There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo. (Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but the Bartenura disagrees apparently.) R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah to make your daily bread? Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original: Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for, and not the learning itself. Thinking out loud: The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod, that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution instead of just "don't take pay". But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that "most". On to a very different topic, same subject line... On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I recall in my youth that there were individuals who > consistently stood for the entire leining. I would > assume that was their minhag. My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian. Amu"sh.) My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk, not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam, and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing for the diberos: > he Rambam also held that we never > change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that > we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears > we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. > My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with > ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, > in which case it's perfectly fine to stand. Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for everything. Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos. Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean a- pesaqim specific to a community b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin c- ... anything else? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:45:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour to chatzos is only bedi'eved. So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:53:40 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224205340.GB9637@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at : chamor and saw chomer(material world) The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they are in charge of their chomer side. Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason" symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me, I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Feb 24 18:58:03 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:58:03 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? --------------------------- At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan KT Joel THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 25 09:00:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200225170034.GI27056@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved or hefsed situations. But I was confused about the first question: >> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, >> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven >> is at the beginning of that time range? On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening > with a minyan The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at haneitz. In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar. Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else is also yotzei. Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.) Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan. The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema (Rambam). Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 26 04:50:01 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply z'rizin makdimin. I'm even tempted to say that it has nothing to do with z'rizin makdimin, and the proof is that the same pasuk is used for two purposes: Shacharis at the very beginning of the day, and also Mincha at the very end. Mechaber 89:1 - "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." Brachos 29b - R' Yochanan said, "It's a mitzva to pray when the sun is red." R' Zeira said, "What's the pasuk? Yira'ucha im shamesh, v'lifnay yare'ach, dor dorim." (Tehillim 72:5) Brachos 29b Rashi - "Yira'ucha im shamesh" - This is Tefilas Yotzer. "V'lifnay yare'ach" - This is Tefilas Mincha. Shabbos 118b Rashi - "V'lifnay yare'ach" - Prior to the light of the moon, while the sun has not yet set. Brachos 29b Steinzaltz - "When the sun is red" - Tefilas Yotzer with Haneitz Hachama, and Tefilas Mincha with Shkias Hachama. Brachos 29b ArtScroll note 11 - These two times (just after sunrise and just prior to sunset) are the most propitious for reciting the morning and afternoon Prayers respectively. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva ( http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24777) which says: "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day to pray - "with sunrise." And optimal time for the Minchah prayer is at the end of the day, as the sun is setting - "before the moon." I believe that the above is true l'halacha, but in the l'maaseh there is a very big difference between Shacharis and Mincha, perhaps explained best by Gemara Brachos 29b, immediately after the line I quoted above. "In the west [Eretz Yisrael] they would curse someone who davens [Mincha] when the sun gets red. Why? Because he might miss the zman." In order words, there is no downside to saying Shacharis at the very earliest time, but there is a very great danger in delaying Mincha to the very latest time. I suspect that this is why discussions about the time for Mincha center on "How early CAN I daven", and not on "When is the BEST time to daven." Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 26 07:10:59 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200226151059.GE3829@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:50am EST, R Akiva Miller wrote: > R' Micha Berger wrote: >> So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. > The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply > z'rizin makdimin... Which is why my post continued. As I noted, the Rambam says it's the sole right time, and everything else is inferior. Why would he say that? Likely the pasuq the machaber quotes: > Mechaber 89:1 -- "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one > should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." And so, I concluded that the main reason is being chosheish for the Rambam's reasoning. But even if your confidence in halachic process is such that you don't need to go beyond the Tur's shitah and minhag yisrael, there is still zerizim maqdimin. But there is more! Because doing anything before minyan is lesse Majeste or borders on it. (Thus we don't eat before davening, uless needed for davening, we don't go in order to greet people...) So, there is more drive for "as early as possible" than most mitzvos. And I think that is why: > Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, > other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva > () which says: > "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day > to pray -- "with sunrise."... I have heard Breslover speakers argue similarly. Kevasiqin is for OT1H chassidim and other benei aliyah who want to follow the beautiful idea in the pasuq in Tehillim, and OTOH for Briskers and the sort who are regularly chosheshim for rejected shitos. But never caught on among those in the middle. (It is also more common among actual vasiqin, as waking up enough before haneitz to catch a minyan kevasiqin is frustratingly common among the more "ancient" among us. That's when my father amu"sh started.) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" -- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From eliturkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 14:17:58 2020 From: eliturkel at gmail.com (Eli Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 00:17:58 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus Message-ID: halkachic cautions in the face of coronavirus https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/02/precautions-in-shul-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus/ -- Eli Turkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 13:31:37 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> References: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200301213137.GA13398@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean > a- pesaqim specific to a community > b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin > c- ... anything else? RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis until marriage. Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes, it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's all post facto. And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost. So there is a (c) for my list c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic. Anyone have a suggestion for (d)? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 14:02:05 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following: > A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) > writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot > must be kashered before it is re-used... > are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but > nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As > such, there are the following positions: > * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be > halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as > non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. > * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient > position on commercial milk would... > * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position > in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a > chumrah... This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's, as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago). But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation. Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify. Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against adulterating his milk. Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS. Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly (YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews. Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all. So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or that of another CY eater.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift. http://www.aishdas.org/asp The purpose of life Author: Widen Your Tent is to give it away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Pablo Picasso From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 15:35:52 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly. For example, I recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold in NY as kosher was actually treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper kashrus standards.. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 15:58:22 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <07ea01d5f025$4c5d3250$e51796f0$@aishdas.org> From: Prof. Levine Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST > At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. > Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for > those who wanted to keep kosher properly... But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened? My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical, since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting pesaq halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Mar 1 20:11:23 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 04:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. -------------------------------------- And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 2 07:30:52 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > following the Peri Chadash against the CS. Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all he does is cite the Radvaz? > So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes > is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or > that of another CY eater.) Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was used with was non-CY milk. If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed up in good faith. But if you hold that it's actually kosher then there's no problem in the first place. And if you're kind of in the middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as snifim lehakel. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 2 13:01:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200302210134.GC3266@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. > Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all > he does is cite the Radvaz? I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse. -Micha From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:34:37 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mezuzah checked Message-ID: From the OU: Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done? A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years (i.e., every 3? years). ......... Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions of their rav when a question would be appropriate. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:57 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot Message-ID: From R'Rimon in Hamizrachi: "In light of the above (me - shtarei hedyotot et al) it would be best if there were no ads at all in our Parshat Hashavua sheets"..... "However it is very difficult to abide by these demands in our times because it's the ads that fund the publication"... "Still it would be worth having clear guidelines" This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." I'd really appreciate a better understanding of the halachic force of this consideration. Oh, and did the publishers of Hamizrachi appreciate the irony of this article appearing in their publication with advertisement which is distributed in many shuls on Shabbat? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 10:59:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self Message-ID: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Experiencing the tzelem Elokim as proof there is an Elokim? See https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/search-soul-john-cottingham-review or http://bit.ly/3czL1aK Snippets / teasers: New Statesman The paradox of an atheist soul Why the idea of a single self only makes sense in a theistic world. By John Gray There are many arguments for theism, most of them not worth rehearsing. ... A different and more interesting approach is to argue that theism is suggested by the fact that we experience ourselves as unified, conscious beings - in other words, as having a soul. Not necessarily an immaterial entity, the soul is the part of us that strives to realise what is best in our nature. We do not come to know the soul through any special revelation. We know it by considering the kind of creature we find ourselves to be - a thinking being inhabiting a life-world that seems to reflect a mind greater than our own. Once we realise we have a soul, theism becomes a credible way of thinking. Such is the approach adopted in this lucid and illuminating book by John Cottingham, professor of the philosophy of religion at University of Roehampton.... Cottingham presents a version of the transcendental argument deployed by the German Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804). A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, it asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are accepted as given. Kant used it to support his belief in a universal moral law and, at points in his writings, the existence of God. As used by Cottingham, its purpose is to refute the Scottish sceptic David Hume (1711-1776), whom Kant described as "having interrupted my dogmatic slumber". In A Treatise of Human Nature (1739), Hume had written that the self is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed one another with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement". If the self is not an autonomous entity but an assemblage of sensations Kant's theistic faith crumbles into dust. Cottingham spells out the connection between theism and the idea of the self: It is a fundamental theistic belief, following the words of Genesis, that human beings are made "in the image" of God; and this is taken to be especially true in virtue of our conscious minds, in virtue of our attributes of intellect and will. Theism thus posits a source of ground of all being that is somehow mind-like: consciousness is taken to be at the heart of reality. The theistic picture tends to be discarded or ignored by the majority of contemporary philosophers, but it seems perverse to dismiss it from consideration should it turn out to fit rather well with certain aspects of reality that cannot in integrity be denied... [such as] the irreducible reality of consciousness. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 11:15:13 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> In a recent post in Torah Musings , R Daniel Mann answers a question about a new practice some have regarding parashas Zakhor. Again, snippets: Question: My shul has always read Parashat Zachor once, with our regular havara (pronunciation). Some people now complain that we do not follow other shuls and read multiple times with different havarot to fulfill the mitzva according to more opinions and to do the mitzva properly for Sephardim. Should we change our minhag? First he brings arguments that one doesn't need correct havara to be yotzei. Whether because the deOraisa doesn't need to be in lashon haqodesh, or perhaps has no specific text, or RMF's (IM OC 3:5) proof from chalitza that havara is not meqev, or that an Ashkenzi who doesn't distinguish between alef and ayin may serve as chazan for Ashkenazim... The latter two arguments saying that "correct havarah" is societal. Still, one might need to have Parashas Zakhor available in many havaros if the community is of people of different eidos. At least as a chumerah. But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... Several (Teshuvot V'hanhagot ibid.; Halichot Shlomo ibid.; Aseh Lecha Rav VI:22) mention hearing of such a new practice and consider it strange. They reject it as being disrespectful to the tzibbur, to the rest of our lainings, and/or to past generations who did not do such things. I would not criticize a minyan that decides to do so anyway (some fine places do), and there are circumstances in which there is a stronger argument (e.g., there is no minyan in the area of other eidot), but it is wrong to criticize the normal minhag for not adopting this innovation. In the early days of the list, I was particularly prone to Brisker chumeros (trying to be yotzei as many shitos as possible) or to chumeros or pesaqim that allow expression of how I understood the mitzvah hashkafically. I think learning a cycle and a fraction of AhS Yomi has toned that down. At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of confidence in the halachic process. As for hashkafically motivated pesaq, that's still with me more. But I think I've gotten to an age where I finally understand the value of continuity as well. (I mentioned before, though, my mother's observation about the family she married in to. My grandfather got to the US too young to be aware of most of his minhagim and therefore ended up acting as per R/Dr Mirsky's shiurim. My father's decades of "the Rav's" (RYBS's) Tues night shiur, and repreatedly took on the implications of those shiurim. And then my own habits. Doing what fits what we learned in shiur last IS the onky continuity my family practice has.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Live as if you were living already for the http://www.aishdas.org/asp second time and as if you had acted the first Author: Widen Your Tent time as wrongly as you are about to act now! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 4 11:36:42 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36.2D.07714.B14006E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:25 PM 3/4/2020, R. Joel Rich wrote: >People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients >listed on the label. > >-------------------------------------- >And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" >KT >Joel Rich Since when to two wrongs make a right? Also one has to keep in mind that in many places everything was made from scratch. My mother-in-law comes from a small town in Hungary. There was essentially no prepared anything. Baking was done at home, meat and chickens were kashered at home, etc. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Mar 6 08:19:30 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: Good stuff from Rav Aviner: http://www.ravaviner.com/2020/03/hilchot-corona.html Some of the questions include: Q: Is one obligated to listen to the instructions of the Ministry of Health regarding Corona? Q: Does one fulfill the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim on the phone? Q: If a person is in quarantine for Corona, what does he do about Davening in a Minyan? Q: Should one refrain from kissing Mezuzot on account of Corona? Q: How could someone get sick with Corona while hearing the Megillah when the Gemara states, "Harm will not befall one on the way to perform a Mitzvah"? Q: What is Hashem trying to teach us with the Corona Virus in the world? and many more -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 17:58:20 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing > practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, > some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different minhagim? -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 18:25:10 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > accepted as given. One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is universal. "Kol echad be`atzmo shi`er", and assumed everyone else must be the same. If that assumption is not true, it can lead to utter confusion, as people debate at cross-purposes, each completely unable to understand the other's arguments. See, for an example, https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like? Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even existed. The debate was resolved by Francis Galton, a fascinating man who among other achievements invented eugenics, the "wisdom of crowds", and standard deviation. Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images. Dr. Berman dubbed this the Typical Mind Fallacy: the human tendency to believe that one's own mental structure can be generalized to apply to everyone else's. -- Zev Sero Have a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:23:48 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: > One should therefore refrain from touching or kissing Mezuzot. < My practice for some time has been to "point to" (essentially, reach towards but not touch) the m'zuzah as I pass (and when I leave my house, to say, "Baruch ata b'vo'echa, uvaruch ata b'tzeisecha"). However, having trouble getting used to a clenched-fist (and hate the dangerous elbow) greeting... :). --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:53:00 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. Very well phrased! I have often felt this way, but was unable to find the words to express it. Thank you. For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Mar 9 07:09:31 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. ----------------------------------- Or a lack of confidence in oneself (or their ability/worthiness to decide)? I often think of R? Schachter comparing the personalities of R? Chaim and the Netziv and wonder if this could be explained on that basis. Enough said? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 11 11:47:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:47:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] NYT Ethicist Message-ID: NYT Ethicist - What would halacha be? Q.I have been struck by a fatal disease, inherited from my father. I have children, who know they have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the disease from me. I have several siblings. One has children of her own. She has so far refused to be tested on the off chance that she, too, has the gene. This means that her children don't know anything about the cause of my disease. There are interventions that could protect any future grandchildren, but her children don't know they are in danger of passing the disease along. I have been tempted to tell my sister's children myself, but I know this would result in a major breach in our relationship (a real loss to me). What is my ethical responsibility here? Name Withheld A. ... The trouble isn't that your sister refuses to be tested. That's her choice. ... The trouble is that she wants to prevent her children from knowing what she already knows. By keeping them in the dark, she's robbing them of the ability to make their own choices. And here's a critical point. Even if they declined to be tested themselves, simply knowing that they're at risk would enable them to protect any children they might have in the future, through "nondisclosure testing." Clinics can conduct pre?implantation embryo screening without sharing the results with the at-risk parent... Preserving your own uncertainty is defensible; putting others in jeopardy is not... As painful as a breach in your relationship with your sister would be, it's clear that your sister's misguided plan is itself weighing heavily on you. Urge her to level with her children about the facts. (She could implore them not to tell her if they are tested and get a positive result.) Were she still to refuse, tell them yourself. KT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:53:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200311205357.GG11689@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 08:58:20PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing >> practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, >> some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... > How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 > kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different > minhagim? Chazal wanted everyone doing the same thing, but rather than mandate one definition of the teru'ah to the exclusion of the others, we all do all three of them. This innovation breaks from everyone doing the same. But more than that... Chazal had the power to pasqen and would have pasqened if they didn't feel this compromise brought more achdus. Being chosheish for shitas Rashi after centuries of no one (or kim'at no one) blew according to shitas Rashi is an unwillingness to pasqen. And an unwillingness to accept that the halachic process can actually say A is right and B wrong. It's questioning the whole concept of pesaq! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:02:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311200248.GD11689@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:45:42AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be > holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six > different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). > > This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he > does so here? Never found an answer, and a month later, I'm giving up. BUT, I liked the Y-mi's explanation at the end of Challah pereq 1 (vilna daf 9b) cited at the SA ad loc by the Gra -- OC 167 s"q 4 . The ten fingers are a reminder of the 10 mitzvos it took to get the bread: 1- Lo sacharosh - Not plowing with a kelaim of animals 2- Bal tizra - Not planting kelaim 3- Bal tachsom - Not muzzling the animals to keep them from eating 4- Leqet 5- Shikhechah 6- Pei'ah 7- Terumah 8- Maaser Rishon 9- Maaser Sheini (or Maaser Ani, depending on the year, though not mentioned in the Y-mi) 10- Challah Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:20:47 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live R Ari Kahn (of Bar Ilan) came out in favor of such readings, the mar'eh meqomos for his shiur are available at https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2020/03/hearing-megillah-over-telephone-or.html AIUI, RAK's primary concern was to reassure people who have no choice, and to make sure questionable cases don't risk spreading disease by showing up. So he really presents the case for only one side. RGS pointed people to R Daniel Z Feldman's (RIETS) older piece (not reflecting this year's she'as hadechaq) in Tradition at https://traditiononline.org/the-virtual-minyain which gives both sides of the story. I tried to lend my megillah to someone so that they could listen to the above-linked reading at YU and read along from a kosher megillah. But, my livingroom is being painted, the bookcase where I keep my megillah was among those boxed up, and someone else beat me to the mitzvah. In Westchester County, NY, Chabad managed to organize leining for 100 quarantined people by having the baal qeriah read on a deck or porch, outside an open door or window. But such arrangements are not available to everyone. I saw on Facebook the following social concern that I thought was interesting and valid enough to share here. https://www.facebook.com/matthew.kritz.9/posts/2899197760173502 R Matthew Nitzanim writes (in part): This is why I fear the live-feed Megillah readings. There is no doubt that it is the most practical solution to ensure more people hear the Megillah, without risking more people catching the virus, and there is arguably halachic grounds to allow the practice (even as the debate continues), especially under these extenuating circumstances. But once virtual readings are normalized, what will Purim look like next year? I'm not too worried about no one showing up for Megillah next year - we all know it's more fun to boo for Haman and show off our costumes with friends around. But what about all those people who are alone, boxed out of society? Will the hospital and the rehab center call the local yeshiva for volunteers to come visit, or will they suffice with arranging a dial-in reading (which will inevitably come to be replaced with a recording for those who can't distinguish)? Will the readers and merry-makers of years past feel less push to pay visits when the mitzvah can be fulfilled electronically? Certainly this change wouldn't happen in just one year, but perhaps we are setting a precedent that will be taken seriously in years to come. Because what's at stake is not merely the obligation to hear the Megillah. What is at stake is the future of community and interpersonal connection in the age of digital media. Performing one of our most communal mitzvot through a screen means radically reimagining the very meaning of community, a process that is already well underway. Among the Orthodox, the study of Torah, traditionally intended to bring people into the same room, is increasingly done via recorded shiurim. Elsewhere in the Jewish world, services are taped and can be watched from home, and you can even find a dial-in Kaddish minyan. And shout out to the various Skype Seudot and Zoom Tishes spreading Purim cheer to the quarantined. Each of these is an exciting way digital communication can be used to better include those would otherwise be left out. But if we aren't careful with the pace of development, we will end up creating tools that, although intended to increase connection and participation, will further distance and disenfranchise those who were already only hoping for a visitor or two, and will be left with nothing but a computer screen. What we are watching is reminiscent of the Conservative Movement's ruling permitting driving on Shabbat -- intended to increase access to communal life, but perhaps in the process weakening the physical proximity that keeps community alive, with only time to tell whether the benefits outweigh the costs. So too with screen talk: appealing as it may be in this moment, down the road, we risk harming the very deep sense of community that held us together in ancient Persia and through the ages to this very day. Maybe this is a moment where we would benefit from Halacha being less accommodating of the present, and more oppositional and countercultural.... So he recommends making a heqer: So be cautious this Purim, not only hygienically, but spiritually too. If I had a say, I would encourage those who are doing the holy work of reading Megillah by livestream for people in quarantine not to say the Brachot, even if they are also reading for themselves, to make clear that this is a sub par, temporary fix, and not necessarily an ideal, long term change. And finally, this nice thought is off topic for the thread, but worth sharing: More importantly, for everyone stuck at home this Purim, please take it upon yourself, once your quarantine is LONG SINCE OVER, to pay a visit to someone who feels alone for more than two weeks at a time. It can be next Purim, or maybe even sooner. Take your experience of being homebound, and allow it to be a springboard for being more aware of the many, many people who would give anything not to be alone, to be greeted by a friendly face with a warm smile, by someone who remembered that it's Purim for them too. More than an ecard, or a phone call, or a Zoom chat, what they really want to see is you. qiyum is suboptimal. -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:28:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202821.GF11689@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving > priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." What the "this" was aside, I didn't think that's why we ignore those priorities. Rather, it ends up never being halakhah lemaaseh even from day one. The mishnah itself says these priorities are "all else being equal". And all else is never equal. The reisha is just one triage factor among many. The problem, thus, isn't abiding, but in deciding which mamzer is enough of a talmid chakham to go ahead of the kohein gadol, or which baal chessed outranks the innate qedushah of a kohein. Or... Lack of ability to assess, not lack of emotional constitution to follow through. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:56:30 2020 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or rimon? On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos > that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic > transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > > From penkap at panix.com Wed Mar 11 18:28:28 2020 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: ? For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" ?And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. ?So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. ?A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers.? The amount of sechel in this comment is almost overwhelming. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 11 21:26:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Perhaps one can add as a snif to "permit" it the Chasam Sofer on Hil' Kidush Levana, citing a case during a cholera epidemic in Cracow, when the rov of the time found a heter to say kidush levana on the 16th night so that people who would not otherwise be able to say it should not get depressed and ch"v endanger themselves. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:58:07 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: On Areivim, the issue was raised that the shuls in Bergen County NJ are now closed, and the question of "house minyanim" was raised too. I have a question about house minyanim that I'd like to discuss. My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. Once that minyan exists, additional people can be in adjoining rooms, provided that they can see and hear. I've often been at house minyanim where fewer people are in the room with the Shliach Tzibur, and the rest are in an adjoining room. The doorway between them is so wide that people don't give it a second thought. It seems to me that even though there is no actual door separating these two rooms, the fact that there's a mezuzah between them might define them as distinct rooms for the halacha of establishing a minyan. I hope I have explained the situation clearly enough. The MB does not seem to specify the width of the doorway in question, nor did I see any distinction between a "doorway" and an "open door". I suppose someone could argue that the problem exists only for standard-width doors which happen to be open at the moment, and that there's no problem for a living room and dining room that happen to have a mezuzah between them. Has anyone see any poskim write about this? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:02:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hand shake Message-ID: Listened to a shiur where the magid shiur said that R'X used to advise job interviewees to use the dead fish handshake, then later advised the iron man handshake until he was told that each of those would not get you a job. Now he advises a firm, quick business-like handshake. May I vent - I heard R'X say these things over the years and always wondered who he had asked about the real world. How many job opportunities were lost?? etc.?? How much of a responsibility does a poseik have to determine "reality"? (Another example - toveiling electronics) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:04:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals Message-ID: Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 18 08:05:11 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> On 18/3/20 3:04 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals > per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in > halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and condiments to make the bread taste better. Sometimes a grain porridge would substitute for the bread, but the essential roles were the same. To us, the bread, if it appears at all, is a condiment or entree to the real food. We don't eat bread with meat, we eat meat with bread. Even with grains, we regard them as a side dish, not as the main part of the course. So in principle the entire basis of hil' bh"n should be reversed. Next: Undoing the whole concept of 7 mashkim, and the principle that the juice of any fruit but grapes and olives is not a mashkeh. Not just in hil' bh"n and shabbos, but also in hil' taharos. (At least in principle, since they're not practical halachos anyway.) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 11:33:16 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: In Avodah V38n19, RAMiller noted: > My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. < But see the latter half of BH 55:14/MB 55:50. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Mar 15 18:42:51 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper _______________________________________________ Areivim mailing list Areivim at lists.aishdas.org http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 19 07:10:49 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 4 amos and Epidimeology Message-ID: <20200319141049.GA17120@aishdas.org> Is it "coincidence" or do you think it's common cause: The recommended distance to be sure we don't breathe on each other is given as 6 feet or 2 m, depending on what the masses being recommended to think in. Which "just happens to be" just around the 4 amos radius used to define a person's space for the sake of davening or acquisitions. (As an ammah is defined by to the Rambam, R Chaim Naeh, and the plaque on the wall found at Chizqiyahu's water tunnel. Not the CI. Would tzadiq gozer veE' meqayeim mean that people need to be be staying farther apart in Bnei Braq to be safe?) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 19 09:23:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> References: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> Message-ID: There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. =================================== He also said (From R' Torcyner translation): And after each prayer, evening and morning, they should recite Tehillim, certain psalms which his honour should select, and then the text of Kel rachum sh'mecha, Aneinu Hashem aneinu, Mi she'anah, and the Y'hi ratzon after Tehillim, mentioning in it the king, may Gd protect him, and his children and nobles and all who live in his land. IMHO the last part is also about the realization that a united community response is required bderech hateva (not each subsegment deciding on its own what to do) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 05:20:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:20:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger by R Herschel Schachter Message-ID: <20200320122008.GA4902@aishdas.org> This is an abornamlly long piece for Facebook, but it's making the rounds there. :-)BBii! -Micha The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger Rav Hershel Schachter Many have the mistaken impression that the Jewish religion places much emphasis on death and respect for the dead; after all, we recite kaddish, yizkor, observe shiva, and yahrzeit, etc. This is a gross misunderstanding. The respect that we show for the dead is a carryover from the respect that we show for the living. The Gemorah (Kesubos 17a, see Shitah Mekubetzes) tells us that whenever there is a conflict between kovod ha'chayim and kovod ha'meisim, kovod ha'chaim takes precedence. When the chevra kadisha brings in the aron at a funeral, everyone stands up. People mistakenly think that we stand up out of respect for the niftar, but in many cases we never stood up for him when he was alive, so why should we stand up for him now that he passed away? The Bartenurah (Mishnayos Bikurim 3:3) explains that we are not standing up out of respect for the niftar but rather out of respect for the members of the chevra kaddisha who are presently involved in the fulfillment of a mitzvah. The respect for the living is based on the premise that all human beings were created b'tzelem Elokim. When the Torah requires us to demonstrate kovod ha'meis, it means that even after the person passed away and no longer has tzelem Elokim, i.e. a neshama, we still have to act respectfully towards the body because it used to have a tzelem Elokim. Of the six hundred and thirteen mitzvos, one of the most important is the mitzvah of v'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem (Yoma 85b). Not only does the halacha require that if there is a sofek sakanah we must violate almost all of the mitzvos in the Torah to save a life, but we are also required to do so even if there is only a s'fek s'feika, a remote possibility(Yoma 85a). The Gemorah (ibid) adds that even if the likelihood is that by violating Shabbos or whatever other aveira we most probably will not be saving anyone's life, we still do not abstain from the action due to that likelihood (rove - majority). When Bnei Yisroel were traveling in the midbar for 40 years, the weather conditions were such that there was a slight sakanah in performing bris milah. Most of the sh'votim did not fulfill the mitzvah except for sheivet Levi[1]. They had an Orthodox rabbi among them, i.e. Moshe Rabbeinu. Why didn't all the shevatim ask him what to about this sofek sakanah? If it is a real sofek sakanah he should not have permitted sheivet Levi to perform the mitzvah despite their pietistic protests, and if the sofek sakanah was so insignificant that it simply should have been dismissed, why didn't he insist that all the shevatim perform the mitzvah of milah? The Gemorah (Yevamos 12b) tells us that the answer is to be found in Tehillim (116:6), "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." Whenever there is a slight sofek sakanah that is nowhere near fifty-fifty[2], the halacha declares that it depends on the attitude of the patient. If the patient whose life is at risk (or the parent of the patient who is responsible for his well-being) is personally not nervous about the danger, then the halacha does not consider it a sofek sakanah; we apply "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." But if the patient whose life is at risk is nervous and concerned about the sofek sakanah, then the halacha requires us to act based on, "V'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem", and the sofek sakanah takes precedence over almost all of the mitzvos of the Torah. Shevet Levi had bitachon, and therefore were not concerned, and therefore for their children it was not considered a sofek sakanah, but with respect to the other shevatim who were concerned it was in fact a sofek sakanah, so every shevet was acting k'din. However, if one individual is not concerned, but the nature of the sakanah is such that everyone is interdependent and the individual who personally is not nervous may possibly spread a disease to others who are concerned about its spread, then the concept of Shomer p'soyim Hashem does not apply. The individual who is not concerned does not have the right to determine for the others who are concerned that there is no sakanah for them. The Rakanti[3] relates that one of Ba'alei Ha'tosfos was deathly sick before Yom Kippur and the doctors warned him that if he fasts he will certainly die but if he eats on Yom Kippur there is a slim chance that he may survive. He decided to fast, and of course he died. All of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos were upset over his decision and felt that he went against the halacha. If a terrorist threatens to kill me unless I violate one of the mitzvos of the Torah, the halacha usually is that pikuach nefesh takes precedence over most of the mitzvos in the Torah. What if an individual wants to put up a fight knowing that he may well lose his life but thinks that by being moser nefesh he will fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem? This matter was a famous dispute amongst the Rishonim. The Rambam's opinion is that one may not volunteer to give up his life al kiddush Hashem when not required by halacha because this is tantamount to suicide[4]. Many other Rishonim disagreed with the Rambam. However, if there is no terrorist pressuring me to violate my religion, but there is merely a dangerous situation of sickness then all of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos agreed with the Rambam that it would not constitute a midas chassidus to ignore the sakanah[5]. In determining what is a sakanah and what is not, the practice of the Tanoim always was to follow the doctors of their generation. Every so often the Rambam would take a stand on a medical issue against what it says in the Gemorah and the Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah #101) explains that the Rambam was a doctor and he did exactly as the Tanoim did, namely, to follow the doctors of his generation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 331:9) also says explicitly that we follow the doctors of our generation even in contradiction to the medicine recommended in the Gemorah. We should certainly do the same as the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and follow the doctors of our generation in determining what is considered a sakanah and what is not considered a sakanah. Some well-meaning individuals have blown out of halachic proportion the significance of tefillah b'tzibur and talmud Torah b'rabim and have opted to ignore the sofek sakanah presented by the corona virus when in conflict with these two most important mitzvos. We live in a generation where many b'nei Torah tend to exaggerate the significance of Torah and tefillah. Although their intention is certainly l'shaim Shomayim, we must all keep in mind that when paskening shailos, one may not rely on an exaggeration. All exaggerations by definition are sheker - a misrepresentation of the truth of the Torah. Rav Chaim Volozhiner signs off quite a few of his teshuvos saying, "Keil Emes, Nosan lanu Toras Emes, u'bilti el ho'emes eineinu - the true God gave us the true Torah, and we only look for the truth." Any exaggeration in the area of Torah and halacha is clearly a misrepresentation of our religion. The commentaries on Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 157) refer to the comments of the Maharshal in his sefer Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kamma 38a) that to misrepresent a law of the Torah constitutes an aveira related to avodah zorah[6] and as such would be subject to the principle of yeihoreig v'al ya'avor. With respect to a sofek sakanah the halacha clearly requires that we go extremely l'chumrah. Especially religious Jews, who know that they are charged with a mission in life, should certainly be extremely machmir on matters of sofek sakanah. Although every word of a poem appears in the dictionary, the poet conveys an idea by putting the words in a certain order. So too, different people can have the same ideas and the same principles, but if you put them in a different arrangement you have changed the whole understanding if each one of the principles[7]. Once you exaggerate the significance of any particular mitzvah, you have misrepresented the whole picture of kol haTorah kula. [1] See Rashi, Devarim 33:9. [2] See Achiezer, volume 1, #23,2. [3] Siman 166; see Teshuvos Dvar Yehoshua, vol. 2 #94 [4] Hilchos Yesodei haTorah, 5:1. [5] See Mishna Berura 328:6. [6] Because we believe that the Torah is a description of the essence of G-d, misrepresenting the Torah is tantamount to misrepresenting G-d Himself [7] Thoughts 1:22, by Blaise Pascal` From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 07:07:03 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Message-ID: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> R R Wolpoe or R Ben Hecht (the blog post gives me mixed signals) posted the following guidelines from R Yaakov Hoffman of the Washington Heights Congregation designed for his congregation. (Not to be confused with R Yair Hoffman of the 5TJT.) http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-rrw-guest-blogger-rabbi-yaakov.html On factor I noticed RYH didn't mention that I saw others did was maintaining your usual davening times. (Assuming we're not talking about kevasiqin as the other option.) :-)BBii! -Micha NishmaBlog Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Friday, 20 March 2020 >From RRW Guest Blogger: Rabbi Yaakov Hoffman Below is a halachic guide I prepared for my shul on how to daven on Shabbos without a minyan, and general halachos one should know that are affected by not being in a shul framework on Shabbos. Feel free to use/adapt for your own shuls. Also, I would be happy to receive any he'aros you may have. Thanks. Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide - One should make an effort to daven Mincha on Friday before plag ha-mincha (this week ~5:50pm). - It is not necessary to recite the full Kabbalat Shabbat as recited in shul; reciting Lecha Dodi, Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat, Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh, and Bameh Madlikin is sufficient. One should recite Lecha Dodi and Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat before sunset (this week ~7:07pm). - Although ordinarily one should daven Maariv after nightfall when praying without a minyan, on Friday evening one may daven after plag (preferably one should wait ~20 minutes after plag). The Shema must be repeated after nightfall (tzeit ha-kochavim, this Friday ~7:42pm). - One may make Kiddush and begin the meal immediately after davening Maariv. If one has not yet begun the meal by tzeit ha-kochavim, one must repeat the Shema before eating. - Those who arise early are strongly encouraged to daven ke-vatikin -- timing one's Shacharit to begin the Amidah at sunrise (this week ~6:56am). - If one is pressed for time (e.g., in order to daven at sunrise, or because one needs to help out at home), one can skip the extra psalms added during Psukei de-Zimra on Shabbat, with the exception of Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat and Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh. - Men should take care to daven Shacharit before the latest time for the Shema (this week ~10am). - After the Amidah of Shacharit, one recites Ashrei and then the Amidah of Musaf, followed by Ein k'Elokeinu, Aleinu, and Shir shel Yom. - It is extremely advisable to read or study the weekly parashah at some point over Shabbat (and to be extra careful about shnayim mikra during the preceding week). - On Shabbat Mevarchim, it is a good idea to remind oneself and one's household about the upcoming Rosh Chodesh (Rosh Chodesh Nisan is Thursday March 26). One does not recite the formal prayer for the upcoming month that is recited in shul. - One should wash for the Shabbat morning meal before midday (this week ~1pm). - One should daven Mincha before eating se`udah shlishit. - Se`udah shlishit should begin before sunset, and may extend as long as one likes. After benching, or after 10 minutes post-sunset (whichever is later), one may not eat or drink anything except water until after Havdalah. - One should not daven Maariv on Saturday night until after Shabbat is over (this week ~7:50pm); preferably, one should not do any melacha before davening Maariv (with atah chonantanu) or making Havdalah. - Baruch Hashem L'Olam is omitted in Maariv when not davening with a minyan. The rest of Maariv, including additions for motza'ei Shabbat, is recited as usual. Veyiten lecha may be recited after Havdalah. Vihi no`am and ve'attah kadosh are omitted on the Saturday night preceding Pesach (and Shavuot, but hopefully we will be back in shul well before then!), but veyiten lecha is still recited. Yaakov Hoffman Rabbi, Washington Heights Congregation[5] www.bridgeshul.com Posted by Rabbi Ben Hecht at 9:08 am From dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk Fri Mar 20 05:02:57 2020 From: dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk (D Rubin) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> References: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 From: Zev Sero > I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so > completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made > hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who > can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and > condiments to make the bread taste better... http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29994 From zev at sero.name Fri Mar 20 08:38:46 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Also omit bracha me'ein sheva, as one does whenever one is not davening with a regularly scheduled minyan. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at Segalco.com Sat Mar 21 11:26:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Interesting-no mention of remembering to dress for shabbat KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From isaac at balb.in Sat Mar 21 04:29:28 2020 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:29:28 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis a vis Lo Sa'amod? 2. Has there been any advice to Mohelim who normally do Metzitza bPeh to cease the practice at this time? 3. Does a Rav have a Chiyuv as Mesader Kiddushin to cease proceedings until there is (in Australia) 4 meters square between people 4. Does a Caterer have a Chiyuv to cease serving food at a Simcha or the like if it too is breaching guidelines? _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ??? From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:35:43 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kshering Metal Sinks Message-ID: . The Chicago CRC has a video on hag'alat keilim at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HSfRG69ho&feature=youtu.be I am curious about two things he said at 6:52-6:59, about kashering a metal sink: 1) "make sure that it's a continuous flow and not to stop in the middle from that pot" 2) "start from the bottom and then you work your way up" Why should it be a continuous flow? What's wrong with pausing the flow, as long as every square millimeter gets hit? And what is the advantage of doing the floor of the sink prior to the walls? Alternatively, what's the downside of kashering the walls first? My totally uneducated guess is that the runoff from the walls would do a "chozer v'niur" on the floor, cancelling the 24-hour wait, whereas if the floor is done first, the runoff from the walls is not sufficiently chometzdik to invalidate the kashering. Am I close? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 24 16:23:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: <20200324232314.GA12402@aishdas.org> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 I see two distinct conversations here: - Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? - Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc... When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria. -Micha IsraelNationalNews.com Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33 A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the presence of the "Zoom" program. The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly people who cannot be physically close to their family members due to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their family through the program. The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the start of the holiday. Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency. "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness, so is the case here," the rabbis wrote. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:29:48 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minor fasts? Message-ID: The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare with other b'al nefesh call outs? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:31:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut Message-ID: A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have failed this test. Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:18:33 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder Message-ID: More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to him? I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps, and we would not want to skip any of them. For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on, and then eating the karpas. But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha, the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately. Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on during the meal. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they arise. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 25 13:40:14 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:40:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:56:23 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325215623.GC14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > > accepted as given. > > One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is > universal.... Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal. > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example ... > Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually > a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't > think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist > that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." > Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of > famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading > scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even > existed. And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population. https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US. https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are non-sighted people. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:37:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> Message-ID: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: > 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching > government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis > a vis Lo Sa'amod? I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera > epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, > davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan > that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to > station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:33:51 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The 5780th Pasuk Message-ID: <20200325213351.GA11104@aishdas.org> There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the corresponding pasuq. So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24: Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov... Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to the year of RMF's petirah. So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28: Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah ve'ein bahem tevunah. Of course, I don't know what to make of that. OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth, 5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim): Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha... >From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at "R Eliyahu Shelomo". This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the 601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo: Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz... (I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es haqeitz.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:40:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? See AhS OC 158:13 , where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not, and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open -- safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:04:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325220433.GD14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote: > On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos >> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic >> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or > rimon? You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit if an esrog is unavailable. If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is complex. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Decisions are complex. Author: Widen Your Tent The Torah is complex. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' Binyamin Hecht From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:19:11 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: <20200325211911.GA6964@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable >> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as >> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the >> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt >> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would >> have failed this test. Thoughts? > He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his > colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, > Achiyah Hashiloni. The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact limits of a relative term. If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim, then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the seeds were there. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 10:40:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m! Message-ID: <20200326174000.GA8153@aishdas.org> Save the date! SAVE THE DATE Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020 1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom! https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598 There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time with a Facebook account, just email me at micha at aishdas.org and ask to be included. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 25 23:15:16 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. --------------------------- For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah KT and stay safe Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:14:21 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger asked: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 > ... > Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi > names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA > systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article. I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this in paragraph Aleph: "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei Ashkenaz. But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other reasons? Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 09:24:16 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >> a vis Lo Sa'amod? > > I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera >> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, >> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan >> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to >> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 12:14:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus Message-ID: <20200326191427.GB19172@aishdas.org> The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't want to post the question, but invited me to. RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that is particularly communicable. As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum number of people necessary. But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to the babies. Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear someone discuss the question? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From crclbas at mail.aol.com Thu Mar 26 13:16:34 2020 From: crclbas at mail.aol.com (BenS) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom seder Message-ID: <202003862i1634.GA18647@aishdas.org> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger wrote: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 ... >> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the >> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly >> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due >> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their >> family through the program. I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak. Ben From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 15:02:56 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >>> a vis Lo Sa'amod? >> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ... > No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In > that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested > that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government > to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it > (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing > them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know > how RAE would answer the question posed here. If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to have the police there to break up any violations? Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 17:01:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, > rather than prevent or break up violations? Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places, including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report* to the authorities a violation of *their* rules. Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not yours. So it's very different from RAE's case. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mgluck at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:45:27 2020 From: mgluck at gmail.com (mgluck at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> References: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <027501d603f2$89d05870$9d710950$@gmail.com> R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... ---- R' MB: I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? --------- IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing doesn't make him tahor either, according to that. KT, MYG From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:40:46 2020 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well > known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa > hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon > Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom > Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many > Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." > > Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei > Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or > whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei > Ashkenaz. > The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the latter option would seem to be correct. > > But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. > The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under those circumstances. > > But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a > regular basis? > Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice. ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less widespread. IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let alone the end of maggid, are minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:06:34 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim Message-ID: . For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating, then do we really have permission to break the fast? Think about that for a moment. If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English, so it's HIS words, not my translation.) <<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>> Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:33:50 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:33:50 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns Message-ID: . When I was younger, the electric urns that we used for hot water on Shabbos were very simple: fill it, plug it in, and there was a valve for taking the water when you needed it. But many of the newer ones have various settings. Mine ( https://www.amazon.com/ProChef-SM300-35-Cup-Water-Shabbostat/dp/B07FK8KTZ6) for example, has three settings, called Regular, Shabbat, and Yom Tov. The manual gives the following explanation of the three settings: > Regular Mode: Keeps the water hot based on the water temperature > Shabbat Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer > Yom Tov Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer and is Halachically permissible to add cold water on Yom Tov Based on that explanation, this is my understanding: In Regular Mode, the thermostat is in full control; when the water gets too cool the heater will turn on until the correct temperature is reached, and then the heater turns off. In Shabbat and Yom Tov modes, the thermostat never responds to the water being too cool. Rather, every so often the timer will turn the heater on, and the thermostat will turn the heater off when the water is hot enough. So what's the difference between Shabbat Mode and Yom Tov mode? If I would use the Shabbat Mode on Yov Tov, is it assur to add water? If I would use the Yom Tov Mode on Shabbat, is there a problem? These are not theoretical questions. If we are still in Chutz Laaretz for this coming Pesach, we'll have a "three day yom tov", and I don't know which setting is preferable. Does anyone else know? Thank you! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Mar 29 10:15:09 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tefillah When Davening Alone Message-ID: Click here to download "Tefillah When Davening Alone" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 30 08:17:44 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:17:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato Message-ID: Please see https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:04 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Announcing Geshem Message-ID: . In Dec 2011, in the thread "Announcing Tal Umatar", I asked why halacha demands such critical announcements for starting and stopping the prayer for Geshem, yet no formal announcements at all for starting and stopping Tal Umatar. I got no response at all. I asked the same question again in Oct 2015, in the thread "Announcing Geshem". This time I did get one response, from R' Micha Berger, who wrote: > Well, it does make sense to me that baqashos have a level of > personalization that we do not find in shevach. I can insert > whatever baqashos I want to add for birkhas hashanim, so things > are more fluid there. > > My question is more your first one -- why must shevach be communal? > Not making up your own adjectives for G-d, I understand; but even > if I were to switch without everyone in the qehillah doing so yet > (because of the lack of announcement), I wouldn't be doing that... His answer seems very similar to what I found in a teshuva from Rav Hershel Schachter, https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950285/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-9-hallel-on-pesach-night-and-tefillas-tal/ released just yesterday, on how we should handle the switchover this coming Pesach, when most of us will have no effective tzibur for the announcement. The brackets are mine, parentheses are Rav Schachter's. > There is a big difference between She'eila (V'sen Tal Umatar > Livracha) and Hazkara (Mashiv Haruach). See what I wrote in > the name of our Rav [Soloveitchik] in MiPeninei HaRav (section > Tefila, number 5), that changing the descriptions of Hashem > (from Mashiv Haruach to Morid Hatal) requires Reshus Hatzibur, > and an individual is not allowed to make changes on his own. So to answer *my* question, Tefilas Geshem and Tefilas Tal are not informational. They don't simply inform us about the change, they *authorize* the change. And that authorization is not needed in Barech Aleinu. And to answer RMB's question, I'd suggest learning that section of MiPeninei HaRav. (Rav Schachter did give his views there about what we should do in our private Musafs this coming yom tov, but I need to learn it a few more times, and understand it better, before I comment on it.) Akiva Miller Stay Home - Save Lives . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:20:34 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] roll your own Message-ID: An oleh one Thursday (hopefully we will be back in shul soon) morning insisted on reading his own aliyah. I was surprised that the gabbai/Rabbi did not waive him off (given the reason individual olim stopped reading was so as not to embarrass others). Is this at all common? KT and Be Well Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:21:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ukimtas Message-ID: When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara(e.g. the gemara really was dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 2 13:37:43 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: >From today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? A. The Steipler Gaon (Orchos Rabbeinu 2:57) writes that one who studies Gemara or any other subject cannot make a siyum unless one understood the subject matter. The learning need not be with great depth. It is enough that one learns the p?shat (simple understanding). Many poskim hold that this is true even if one did not study the Gemara with Rashi or any other commentary. Sefer Ohr L?Tzion (3:12, ha?arah 1) writes that even if one might have missed a few lines here or there, they can still make a siyum. Similarly, he writes that although when one learns Torah one must vocalize every word (or listen to each word from a chavrusa), but if one occasionally learned by reading the words in one?s mind, one may still make a siyum. One can make a siyum even if one learns a short Masechta such as Tamid or Horiyos, and even if it was studied out of order. Rav Elyashiv, zt?l (Doleh Umashkeh, p. 318:3) held that one person must learn the entire Masechta and it cannot be divided up among a group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sat Jan 4 18:20:44 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: That?s a question which I have always wondered about. The way I see it is the same as taking a test and either passing or failing. If you and I take a test and you get 100 and I get a 60 (assuming that is the passing grade), then I have at least passed. Therefore, I see the same as learning. We both can have learned B?rochos and you know it by heart with all of the m?forshim, and I have learned it enough to get a passing grade so therefore I feel I would have the right to make a siyyum. However, I would look upon your siyyum as more noteworthy (however you wish to interpret that). From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 5 10:41:22 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: <0A849E37-7BD7-45AA-9C73-83FC0FE25429@cox.net> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry is Scripture's way of conveying the conviction that the formative age in Israel's history was not a series of haphazard incidents but the fulfillment of God's grand design??" Avraham lived for 175 years Yitzchok for 180 years Ya'akov for 147years. These numbers form an ordered and symmet- rical series: 7 x 5 squared = 175 (Abraham) 5 x 6 squared = 180 (Isaac) 3 x 7 squared = 147 (Jacob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Tue Jan 7 06:53:14 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:53:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] downloads available.. Message-ID: <134f01d5c56a$313b9010$93b2b030$@touchlogic.com> A coffee drinker's guide to Shabbos micro ground coffee / drip coffee / French press / using timer OUD creamer. do you have to wait 6 hrs till using.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/62kukx9q3ybjs4f/A%20coffee%20drinker%27s%20guide%2 0to%20Shabbos.docx?dl=0 2500 quick English psakim from R Shlomo Miller shlita https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 7 14:12:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? Message-ID: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> From a post: On the one hand, a frustrating element of arbitrariness surrounds umbrella use on Shabbos. Why do we act strictly on this issue, which is hotly debated among authorities, while acting leniently on other disputed issues? God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident. On the other hand, like an individual, a community is defined in part by its past. We cannot change how we got to where we are, our communal evolution through history. As halakhah evolves--within boundaries, of course--we cannot turn back the clock without destabilizing the system. Me: ?God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident.? I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening in ch?ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation) ? Your thoughts? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 04:12:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> Message-ID: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 10:12:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > "God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical > accident." I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories > told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening > in ch"ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at > least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation)? Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a factor in choosing which. After all, we allow for G-d's Will including 49 ways letamei and 49 ways letaheir, and letting humans decide which way of approaching the Truth is necessary for the situation we're in. What I am proposing is more limited than Historical School. With no parallel to some travesty like assigning personal or political motives to a ruling. I am saying that the strengths and weaknesses of how the masses are relating to halakhah itself are historical realities halakhah must account for. Also, to be complete although the issue isn't pragmatic any more -- gezeiros. If you do not believe that Chazal saw where practice *happened to* need shoring up at their moment in time, the decision to make a gezeira to avoid one risk and not a different one seems kind of arbitary at times. I have to believe they were responding to which mistakes were actually being made, or at least mistaken attitudes gaining currnecy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:03:38 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200108200338.GA3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 7:12am EST I replied to RJR: > Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu > va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a > factor in choosing which. This reminds me of another question RJR (was it RJR or is my memory playing tricks?) asked years ago about Goedel's Theorem. Halakhah is immune from Goedel's Theorem: Halakhah on the Divrei Elokim Chaim / dialectic level allows for Eilu veEilu. THere is no Law of Contradiciton, A and not-A can both be Torah, so Goedel's proof fails. Halakhah lemaaseh is not a closed formal system, because -- as I am arguing in this thread -- history matters. It's not a clean room exercise detatched from the realia the poseiq and sho'el/alim are living in. More info from the outside can influence the answer. It's not the kind of system math is, so Goedel's proof fails here too. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:10:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200108201057.GB3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 07:14:21AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: >> We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them >> as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, >> it should be done by example. > Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" > (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish > human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner > consistent with the will of HKB"H... In R' Wolbe's essay titled "Frumkeit" (Alei Shur vol II, available at ), he quotes the Alter of Slabodka as saying "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." The frum person is the one who makes sure to have Shabbos guests each week, but whose guests end up feeling much like his tefillin -- an object with which he did a mitzvah. A person acting out of frumkeit doesn't love to love, he loves in order to be a holier person. And ironically, he thereby fails -- because he never develops that Image of the Holy One he was created to become. The person who acts from self-interest, even from the interest of ascending closer to G-d, will not reach Him. (Taken from my blog post at .) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Thus excellence is not an event, Author: Widen Your Tent but a habit. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aristotle From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 9 11:45:06 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 19:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? Message-ID: >From today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? A. If a person owns their home, they are obligated to put mezuzos on the door as soon as they occupy the home (see Gilyon Maharsha YD 286:22). At what point is one considered an occupant? If one moves furniture and other belongings into a home, but has not actually started living in the house, there is a dispute between the poskim whether a mezuzah is required. The Chovas Hadar (13, footnote 10) assumes there is an obligation, while Rabbi Aharon Felder, in Oholei Yeshurun (page 6, fn 69) quotes other poskim who say the mitzvah begins only when one resides in the home. Shulchan Aruch (YD 236:22) rules that if one rents a house or apartment in the Diaspora, the requirement to put up mezuzos begins after 30 days have elapsed ? on the 31st day (the day of the move counts as day one, even if it is only a partial day.) The Derech Chaim disagrees and maintains that if the lease is for more than 30 days, the obligation to post mezuzos begins immediately. Though most poskim agree with the Shulchan Aruch that there is no obligation to post a mezuzah within 30 days under all circumstances, nonetheless the Magen Avrohom suggests that it is permissible to put a mezuzah on the wall during the first thirty days and recite a bracha. By doing so, the opinion of the Derech Chaim will be covered. The Nachalas Tzvi (286:22) objects to the suggestion of the Magen Avrohom and maintains that the bracha cannot be recited before the mitzvah is obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein (YD 1:179) offers a solution that covers all bases. He recommends putting up the mezuzos (to satisfy the opinion of the Derech Chaim) without a bracha (in deference to the Nachalas Tzvi). After 30 days the mezuzos should be removed, or at least slightly pushed, and then a bracha is required. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 10 06:22:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Askara In-Reply-To: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> References: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200110142208.GA29555@aishdas.org> Talmudology is a blog by R Jeremy Brown on science and gemara, following the daf yomi. (His wife is the known author on Torah topics, Dr Erica Brown.) In this installment, for Berakhos 8a (tomorrow's daf) http://www.talmudology.com/jeremybrownmdgmailcom/2020/1/8/berachot-8a-what-is-askera-and-why-does-it-kill-you or http://bit.ly/36EBBHy RJB rules out the usual translation of "askara" as "croup", since even in their day it wasn't likely to be fatal. Instead, he finds that diphtheria, epiglottitis and quincy fit the gemara's description and suggests it was one of those. Adding another suggestion we're discussed here during the omer in years past: R Sheira Gaon (She'iltos 1:1) says "askara" refers to the sicarii, literally: daggers, but the name was given to the dagger-bearing class of Roman soldiers. His context is the death of R' Aqiva's students by askara; he says they died at the Romans' hands. But, to quote Koren's translation of the gemara, minus the word "croup": [Askara] is like a thorn entangled in a wool fleece, which, when pulled out backwards, tears the wool. Some say that [askara] is like ropes at the entrance to the esophagus, which would be nearly impossible to insert and excruciating to remove. I cannot believe R' Sherira Gaon didn't have an answer for the description in this gemara. Maybe askara is an actual illness that in that one story was being used euphemistically? Or maybe the Romans took to shechting or garroting their victims, r"l? :-)BBii! -Micha PS: Below is a very helpful signature quote, for those of us who spend a lot of time "talking" about things online. -- Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every http://www.aishdas.org/asp argument and to always be right. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Nassan of Breslav - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Likutei Tefilos 94:964 From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 05:52:08 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: > Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." < One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 14 08:32:32 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Adopting Outside the Community Message-ID: <20200114163231.GA17990@aishdas.org> In , or https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/politics-current-affairs/2020/01/why-orthodox-jews-have-been-hesitant-to-adopt-outside-their-community-and-why-they-shouldnt-be/ Malka Groden ("a domestic-adoption advocate in the American Jewish community") writes and article titled: Why Orthodox Jews Have Been Hesitant to Adopt Outside Their Community, and Why They Shouldn't Be I am posting to Avodah because I am including her summaries of points made by RMMS (about the duty to raise nitzotzos, including those in non-Jews) and by RYBS (from Family Redeemed about natural vs covenantal parenthood). And afterwood, the thoughts I had on the subject of adopting non-Jews, developing since the days when we did. ... There is, however, one group of American Jews who are indeed marrying young, having children, and building families deeply connected to Jewish communal infrastructure through synagogues, schools, and a broad range of support organizations. That group comprises both the Charedim and the [M]odern Orthodox... In recent decades, indeed, the Orthodox world has become adept at devising arrangements in support of individuals and families going through life's most significant challenges: medical crises, infertility, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, and more. The organization In Shifra's Arms, for example, supports, emotionally, practically, and financially, Jewish women facing unplanned pregnancies; for another example, the Jewish Children's Adoption Network has placed thousands of Jewish babies with special needs in Jewish homes nationwide. But there's the rub: float within Orthodox precincts any suggestion of becoming involved with the issue of foster care and adoption in the larger society, and the initial response will likely be, "But those children aren't Jewish. Why is this a Jewish cause?" ... [The Lubavitcher] Rebbe taught that Jews are tasked with revealing not only their own "divine spark" but also the divine spark that resides within each human being, Jew and non-Jew alike. Thus, among Chabad's initiatives was a campaign to include, at the start of each day in the nation's public schools, a moment of silence during which all children would have an opportunity to contemplate their own purpose and responsibilities. Similarly, the Rebbe pushed for criminal-justice reform--stressing that those incarcerated must be given the chance for rehabilitation so that they too can return to their God-given mission in life--at a time when this issue did not command the broad consensus it enjoys today. Both of these projects, geared simultaneously toward Jews and the broader community, reflected the Rebbe's firmly activist view of the essential worth of each human being. With a proper moral foundation and education, he held, every individual, however highly or humbly situated, has the potential to grow and reveal his or her own divine spark. It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home. Meanwhile, Rabbi Soloveitchik, coming at the issue from his own direction, devoted an entire volume of essays, Family Redeemed, to the theme of family relationships. In one of these essays, he describes two forms of parenthood. The first form, "natural parenthood," is represented by Adam and Eve. The motherhood of Eve is instinctual and all-consuming; her entire being is involved, through the nine months of pregnancy and onward through the physical and biological demands of childbirth and child rearing. For Adam, by contrast, fathering a child makes no biological claims at all; after the child's birth, he is free to act exactly as he did before. With Abraham and Sarah, a new form--"covenantal" or "redeemed" parenthood--is revealed. For the first time, fatherhood demands something of men: Abraham must serve as an educator, molding his children and the next generation. In this mission, Sarah, the redeemed mother, joins him as partner and essential link in the transmission of the covenant. Separate from the biological demands made on her as a mother, motherhood takes on a larger ethical meaning to which she in turn makes a free commitment. At the start of the Jewish people's history, God confers on the first foremother and forefather the chance to move beyond the innate ties of biology and assume a trans-generational mission. ... By learning from the remarkable work done by American Christians, and by actualizing the core Jewish mission through the redemptive power of the Jewish family, American Jews can begin to help bring healing to a generation of children wounded and forgotten. I am not a huge fan of focusing on the need for homes as a motive for adoption. I am afraid of too many children being taken on as chessed projects rather than letting a normal parent-child relationship develop. But let me focus on Avodah material. If someone wants to adopt in order to continue their mimetic line, (along with the joys and the aggravations of parenting -- kind of like gilu bir'adah) the halakhos are simpler and cleaner when adopting a non-Jewish child. The giyur will be al daas beis din, and the parents are apitrupusei beis din. There is actually a halachically recognized tie between parents and adopted child, and the chinukh you provide is a chiyuv. (Not the chiyuv of "veshinantam levanekha", but still, a chiyuv.) That said, I still think aniyei irekha qodmin -- as long as there are Jewish children to be found, in today's climate of Open Adoption the halachic issues are generally resolvable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair: http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while, Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:32:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) Message-ID: My comment on a hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) shiur: imho an example of trying to codify something that is primarily mimetic. 100 shiurim can't take the place of role models who demonstrate how to know when it will be accepted and how time and place define when to dig in your heels on what issues. Also how you evaluate the impact on the individual vs. the community. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:35:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:35:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hedgehog? Message-ID: On R' Gil Perl's hedgehog piece https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ : I would agree that if MO's goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys' rabbeim's question as to why I just didn't put on a black hat ,is that I just don't think it's what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 20th century) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t613k at aol.com Tue Jan 14 22:42:12 2020 From: t613k at aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> In Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1 dated 1/4/2020? >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinksthat the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... <>>> This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against Orthodox Jews for 200 years.? But this accusation is simply not true.? We Orthodox Jews should not internalize the false image that our enemies have of us.? This belief that our enemies are right about us reflects a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.? Since we are all human beings, of course we all have our faults.? But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <>? In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim? --Toby Katzt613k at aol.com ============= ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 15 05:39:53 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <> --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com I would simply say community should be judged by the following ???- Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying.-Ralph Waldo Emerson Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 06:23:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] =?iso-8859-1?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Adam=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200115142357.GA30570@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 06:42:12AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote: >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, >> thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... > > This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against > Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against > Orthodox Jews for 200 years... And the Semag made against us 700 yearts ago, in asei #74. In explaining why, lemaaseh, one does have to return an aveidas aku"m, he writes , tr. mine so see it in the original at the link: I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain and the rest of Goliyos Edom that now that the exile has gone on far too long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of the world and grab onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not commit sin, do not speak lies, and one won't find a false tongue in their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them, the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People] for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesn't plant a kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One, blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves with trickery, who will attach to them? And R Breuer, 69 years ago, wrote "`Glatt Kosher -- Glatt Yoshor" because he felt a need to remind people that the latter is more important than the former (translation via RYL). To give just the closing: We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for "Glatt Kosher" with an equally intensive one for "Glatt Yoshor." This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13): "The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." As for the wonderful things our community does, a couple of theories: While my negative stereotype is truer than RnTK will admit to herself, it is still just a generalization. The number of people running and participating in those gema"chs, bikur cholim, the chevrah.... they don't total anywhere near half of us. Second, there is just being a religious community. Compare ourselves to another Middle or Upper-Middle class religious community. Look at chessed among actual aku"m like the Mormons. And yet we have the Emes! And we have a system that shapes our lives to inclucate that Emes, from what we eat to how we put on our shoes! Third, bein adam lachaveiro also has a BALM aspect, and we do see signs that it is that aspect that drives much of the chessed. Like the numerous articles by BT, singles, people who rely on Shabbos hospitality, who so often leave feeling like they served as an esrog, a cheftza shel mitzvah. The Alter of Slabodka says something related, about the lishmah of BALC (found quoted in Alei Shur vol II, tr. mine): "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning, http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to Author: Widen Your Tent mend." - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Jan 15 05:56:18 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira Message-ID: <006801d5cbab$90687a70$b1396f50$@touchlogic.com> https://lehavin.org/ At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both topics and keyword searches From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Jan 15 11:27:46 2020 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: <6757A82F-25CA-46D9-A1F0-1C001AA62A5B@tenzerlunin.com> I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh, brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore BALC in the face of BALM. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:56 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: R'n TK writes: "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?" R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Indeed, there is the rub. We learn one thing, but how much do we practice? Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters. An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring home to the shabbos table, and what-not. It was a terrific program. (I have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome -- see https://projectderech.org/). My kids, B"H, are still positively effected by that program. I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15 years ago or so (IIRC) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:55:44 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha Message-ID: R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted? But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha will NOT be accepted? Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until that standard is met the duty remains. We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands of sheep, stole this one sheep etc. The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous. In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even though they did not seek his forgiveness? as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct. Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all circumstances to be a Chassid? Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch. One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national history. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 19:00:45 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are > shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many > questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon > harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? Other illustrations: 1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha. And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff. This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus. 3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by self-identifying as "frum". Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And which one isn't given kibudim in shul? 3- Newspaper headlines. Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that impression, although most boys do. And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust. So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know I was the exception. 4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there. And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro. Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are middos seen as an end in themselves? 5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!" That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut the line in and of itself, doesn't work. And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe http://www.aishdas.org/asp you can be certain of improving, Author: Widen Your Tent and that's your own self. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aldous Huxley From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 18:40:35 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tochachah until when? Message-ID: <20200116024035.GA7698@aishdas.org> So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6) who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9 . I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else. So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo? How do these two issues shtim together? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 17 09:42:58 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro In-Reply-To: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> References: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200117174258.GA9251@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: >> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are >> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many >> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon >> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? > Other illustrations: Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was triggered. The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael". There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos) which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment): Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t) See a daf image at https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_36079_73.pdf or http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2864&size=2 It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions, nor even Sefaria (see "No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")! :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 18 16:53:29 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo Message-ID: <20200119005329.GA12632@aishdas.org> Times of Israel or https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-at-shiloh-archaeologist-finds-artifacts-hinting-at-biblical-tabernacle/ As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including in full): Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh Jan. 17 2020 According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio, 33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.) https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/742731340&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true -micha From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 19 12:53:49 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question Message-ID: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 19 08:26:56 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? Message-ID: Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father, and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says -- that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These [...] From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 19 22:20:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? _______________________________________________ IMHO 1. Make sure the ba'al kore gets proper medical treatment 2. clean up any mess 3. if the ba'al kore can't continue, get a substitute Now if the oleh is the one bleeding, it's probably a bigger issue. See S"A O"C 140 KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Jan 20 04:48:53 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200120124853.GB13148@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 03:53:49PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > A colleague asked me the following question and I had > no answer. > If the ba'al kore is reading the Torah and either has a > nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer > to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? RJR focused on the leining. But I saw the question as being more about the kashrus of the Torah with the blood on it. Ink spills, which are actually black, do not invalidate a sefer Torah -- as long as the letters remain intact. Now that I think of it, although I do not remember this case in the AhS -- maybe also as long as the ink itself doesn't look like an inserted letter? Blood that is red or brown could invalidate a letter too. Or so I am deducing from the case of black letters that had gold painted on top of them (eg in an attempt to glorify Hashem's name) -- the gold has to be removed. So it seems you have to see the black ink. But I do not think any of my speculation about added letters would apply. And in any case, it should be cleaned up simply out of respect for the Torah. ---- I also had thoughts about tum'ah. And so I wrote the below. But I don't think the blood in either scenario (nose bleed or paper cut) is tamei even to begin with. Struck me after I wrote it, in comparison to dam niddah. Still, I invested time, and there are things in it that might inform, so I didn't delete. There is a derabbanan to treat a seifer Torah as if it were tamei. This was to prevent a practice that became commonplace, that of storing all the holy things together. But rodents would come to eat the terumah, and naw on any scrolls nearby. But once they told the masses that the seifer Torah is not only tamei, but can be metamai one's hands too much for handling terumah, that ended. However, a seifer Torah cannot really become tamei. All of this is about treating it as though tamei. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, http://www.aishdas.org/asp if only because it offers us the opportunity of Author: Widen Your Tent self-fulfilling prophecy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Arthur C. Clarke From rabbiknopf at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:12:57 2020 From: rabbiknopf at yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> I've read this recent discussion with great interest. Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious community. I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's?What You Don?t Know About the Ultra-Orthodox - Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other articles:?Values and Religiosity?and?Charitable Giving Among Britain's Jews. And see also this page from?The Jewish Mind. With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a genuine problem (and therefore a challenge). I think it is true that fewer sheilos are asked in bein adam lechavero. I agree that both the occurrence and the communal reaction to scandals in bein adam lechavero are telling and disconcerting.? As Rabbi Berger acknowledges, there are different approaches within our mesorah in understanding the place of bein adam lechavero. Which ever approach one takes, there is room for much more serious thought as to how to reduce the gap between values and communal practice. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:09 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:13:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority Message-ID: A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a)remains silent or (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth 1. What percentage of people would take each course? (orthodox vs. non? 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:48:14 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero In-Reply-To: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200128214814.GD29555@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote: > Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the > frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't > simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious > community. > > I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About > the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other > articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's > Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind. > > With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a > genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)... I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest. What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox is at or https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/what-you-dont-know-about-the-ultra-orthodox/ From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:45:28 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128214528.GC29555@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until > that standard is met the duty remains. > > We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to > many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's > the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds > are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts > to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to > succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which > Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal). So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without the help of finding sources. The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the pasuq: Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha velo savo alav cheit. (The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for how you perceive what they did to you.) However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So, the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them into meizidim means you can't do it. But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how. That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty, even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or someone who hears the story will be influenced. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 14:20:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder) only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so we're talking about 1.8 oz. The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk. HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so. Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot. Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with te'imah. Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which "fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is. The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:35:55 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128213555.GA29555@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote: >> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." > One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and > loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. To me shilush refers to the human condition. When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face. Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.) The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3. Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz. Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give. The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others. The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above. Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:53:07 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128215307.GE29555@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony > that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or > (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth ... > 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif they did, the testimony is void? Li nir'eh: We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma. And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 29 11:53:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> References: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200129195327.GD10165@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com When we discussed this topic a decade ago (10-Oct-2009), R/Dr Prof Levine pointed us to a copy he kept of an article by R/Dr Ari Zivotofsky at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf Tir'u baTov! -Micha From sholom at aishdas.org Sun Feb 2 11:43:54 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Which parsha...? Message-ID: <1580762914542.2f7d92c33c16fe9c@aishdas.org> Someone in shul mused to me that parshas Ve'eria sure had a whole lot of mentions of H's name, and was wondering if that parsha had more mentions than any other parsha. I told him: I don't know, but I have some ideas on who/where to ask! Thoughts? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 4 19:14:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 03:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? Message-ID: In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 5 08:04:04 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ce3160-8d3b-c3a9-9e5d-e781c8bd03c7@sero.name> On 4/2/20 10:14 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R?Gil Student wrote about R?C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? According to the Rosh, at least, the minhag of most (nowadays all) Chu"l communities saying tal umatar as if they were in Iraq is mistaken, and he tried his best to change it in Spain, but faced such massive opposition that he gave up and accepted the status quo. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 5 09:57:59 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE Message-ID: This morning while shopping I noted that many types of Arnold's bread now bear on OU DE instead of OU Pareve. The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Q. Is one permitted to bake DE (Dairy Equipment) bread? For example, may one bake bread on a baking pan that was previously used to bake cheese danishes? A. (The OU recently focused on this issue, as a major bread manufacturer certified by the OU requested authorization to produce OU-DE certified bread. Click here to read Rabbi Genack?s extensive teshuva on this topic.) The Pischei Teshuva (YD 97:5) rules that bread baked on dairy equipment may be consumed. He reasons that as follows: Chazal (Pesachim 46a) forbade eating dairy bread as a gezaira (a prohibitive measure), lest one forgets the dairy status of the bread and consumes it with meat. This concern is valid when the bread contains actual dairy ingredients. However, when the bread is baked on dairy equipment, the bread is technically pareve according to the Rama, but as a chumra (an extra stringency), the bread may not be eaten with meat. Bidi?eved (after the fact), the Rama agrees that DE bread mixed with meat may be consumed. The possibility that one might not remember the status of DE bread is much less of a concern than for bread that contains actual dairy, and therefore there is no restriction on consuming DE bread. This reasoning is valid according to the Rama (95:2) who allows DE items mixed with meat bidi?eved. However, the Shach (quoted in a previous Halacha Yomis) rules that pareve items baked or roasted on dairy equipment are fully dairy and may not be consumed with meat even bidi?eved. Accordingly, the Shach would forbid all consumption of DE bread. As previously noted, many poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan (95:12), are not in agreement with the Shach. We will now address the second question about bread baked on a cheese danish pan. Are pans used to bake cheese danish treated as dairy? Interestingly, this depends on how the danish was prepared. If the cheese remained inside the dough, the pan would not have the status of actual dairy, and bread baked on the pan can be eaten with pareve or dairy foods. However, if the cheese leaked out of the danish onto the pan, the Shach would consider the pan to be actual dairy even bidi?eved, and bread baked subsequently would be forbidden. ___________________________________________ Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:41:50 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim Message-ID: Questions from (another) guy in my shul: On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is trying to annul or alleviate. (And either the P"Y, or R Rosner, suggest that perhaps this is why when a crisis is facing the community, we engage in tefilla and/or recitation of tehillim). (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the chiddush in that? Do I need R Eazar to tell me that? Or, perhaps R Elazar is saying: you can do all the ma'asim tovim you want, but without tefilla, it's not going to help? But I digress....) That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. Is there any intersection of thought -- is there any influence or stira -- of R Elazar's statements to this order of words? And why does R Elazar seemingly ignore teshuva? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:43:55 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good place to ask ;-) Thoughts, anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 5 18:59:15 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 02:59:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E809B88-1E18-4EBE-84F2-BA7F5BC94544@Segalco.com> Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. -/?????????? Some context is important. As I understand it for many years the OU Used the DE designation and then changed policy because they thought it was too confusing. This led to a time Where they fielded many questions (maybe unofficially? )about what the D really meant and many people used products as if they were DE. Now apparently they?ve gone back to issuing the DE. I think a consumer awareness campaign would be worthwhile I personally prefer having the DE designation available so that people don?t just decide on their own based on the ingredients. Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:08:01 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206200801.GA20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:43:55AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for > us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did > H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good > place to ask ;-) Well, if you don't take Bereishis 1 as history, or you believe in Omphalism ("the universe was created old, as though it all happened" -- RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements. The universe's size also is an effect of the kind of Inflation and Big Bang we had, or H' made a universe as thought we had. The same thing that set up many other things in physics, and is subject to our laws of physics. Which in turn would mean that to have the physics we do, we would need a universe of a certain size. (Or a universe that was obviously created in a "puff" of neis.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:24:09 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206202409.GB20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:41:50AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, > and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's > talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers > that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is > trying to annul or alleviate... Which fits the context; the gemara is talking about Moshe davening to come to EY. > (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with > tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the > chiddush in that? ... So the Penei Yeoshua tell you to look in the Maharsha and the Mahari Pinto, who ask just your question -- of course T + MT > T. And also, why go to Moshe who excelled at everything, not the clearest maqor for this kind of comparison. The PY only gives his own answer -- obviously the sekhar of MT is greater, as they involve many mitzvos. Even if tefillah is deOraisa, which he notes is unclear. Rather, it is specifically WRT getting out of a gezeira ra'ah. Barukh shekivanta! My reaction: We're talking about Moshe level davening, and it's still not enough without maasim tovim?! The Ben Yehoyada (ad loc) says that the intent is Avos 5:21, "kol hamzakeh es harabim, tekhus harabim talui bo". So the gemara is saying that the tefillah of someone with maasim tovim is greater than the maasim tovim in and of their own zekhuyos. > That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana > Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. And the next line in the gemara is R Elazar saying that taanis is greater than tzedaqah -- because it is done with his body, and tzedaqah is done with his money. Remember the Machzorim that have the words tzom, qol, mamon over teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, and they're all there. Tzom is a maaseh associated with teshuvah. BUT... The next line after that, also R Elazar, says that tefillah is greater that qorbanos. If the gemara were working with teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, this quote wouldn't be here, it breaks the symbolism. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:33:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206203333.GC20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 03:14:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue > I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue > since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were > all holy) There are at least two ways you can ascribe importance to mimetic precedent, whether minhag or accepted pesaq, or any other of the looser usages of the word "minhag": 1- "Im lo neviim heim benei neviim heim" or "she'reis Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" mean that there is siyata diShmaya involved in what Jews end up doing. And thus Retzon haBorei blesses such practices. (In some way that doesn't violate lo bashamayim hi. Just as a poseiq's siyata diShmaya doesn't.) 2- The lack of rabbinic objection shows that generations of rabbanim found textual support for the practice. Which would rule out practices where we have a record of rabbinic protests. I brought up #2 in the early days of Avodah, when R/Dr Meir Shinnar used a mimetic argument to prove that sei'ar be'ishah ervah is das Yehudis and changes with the fashion. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I want to do it." - is weak. Author: Widen Your Tent "I am doing it." - that is the right way. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 05:00:41 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] New Haggada Available Message-ID: A new edition is now available of my "Achieving Immortality - A Haggada for Re-Experiencing the Exodus". My main goal in this Haggada is to avoid anything that would distract us from "seeing ourselves as if we left Egypt ourselves." For example, the peirushim are incorporated into the translation and instructions, rather than being relegated to the bottom of the page. Extensive footnotes for supplementary material are accessible on the bottom of each page, but for the seder itself they are in the back of the book, to be less distracting. It is available online at Lulu.com, where anyone can find it by searching for the title and/or my name. It is available in three bindings: hardcover, paperback, and a coil-bound version (which is my family's favorite because it lies flat with no effort, so yet another distraction is avoided). All three have the exact same 200-page interior. SPECIAL HALF-PRICE pricing for Avodah readers is available if you use these links: Softcover $5.97 at https://tinyurl.com/SoftcoverHaggada Coilbound $7.47 at https://tinyurl.com/CoilboundHaggada Hardcover $12.97 at https://tinyurl.com/HardcoverHaggada (plus tax and shipping, obviously) You can often get it even cheaper! Lulu often (but usually only from Monday to Thursday) offers coupon codes that you can use when you check out and pay. You can go to Lulu.com and look for the popup notice, or you can try the frequently-offered codes LULU10 (for 10% off) or ONEFIVE (for 15% off). If you'd like to see a sample of this Haggada, to better judge how much my style fits yours, you can download a 25-page sample at https://www.dropbox.com/s/eizebhfa5qtfpwo/Haggada%202020%20Excerpts.pdf?dl=0 or https://tinyurl.com/v27cwtt Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 17:41:39 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:41:39 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Joel Rich asked Message-ID: < BL0PR02MB37454F2E5D8D2B1D2559773EBF020 at BL0PR02MB3745.namprd02.prod.outlook.com > Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hankman at bell.net Thu Feb 6 21:01:17 2020 From: hankman at bell.net (hank) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 00:01:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: <20200207050117.JFSZ16482.mtlspm02.bell.net@[IPv6:::ffff:192.168.2.56]> RMB wrote: ?RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements.? That is plausible for stars within our galaxy, but not for the billions of stars in billions of galaxies far outside the milkyway galaxy. Those heavy elements could never reach us in this galaxy. Should we postulate intelligent beings in each of those distant galaxies with their own relationship to G-d for whom their stars supply heavy elements to? Kol tuv, Chaim Manaster Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Fri Feb 7 07:43:50 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/20 8:41 pm, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > > But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the > repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - > one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. 1. As I understand it he succeeded, within his area of influence, and chazarat hashatz disappeared for several centuries, until at least the Radvaz's times. (Though his takana was only for Shacharit/Musaf on Shabbat, and for Mincha only if it was getting late.) 2. More importantly it's not an example of this phenomenon because it was *not* an incorrect minhag. Not even the Rambam claimed it was incorrect. The Rambam simply thought a new problem had arisen, which required a new takanah invoking eit laasot to override this correct minhag. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From meirabi at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 17:37:26 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:37:26 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - Talking During Tefillah, That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Zev Message-ID: suggested that RaMBaM, at least within his area of influence, succeeded in cancelling the Chazoras HaShaTz, and we assume also thereby reduced the talking during Tefillah. However, during the Radvaz's times, Ch HaShaTz was reintroduced which only reinforces the notion that Mistaken Minhagim, even if they can be temporarily abated, cannot be stopped Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinlbrody at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 21:49:16 2020 From: martinlbrody at gmail.com (Martin Brody) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:49:16 -0800 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minchagim.... Message-ID: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Cheers, Martin Brody "Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazze Meir G. Rabi From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Tue Feb 11 01:17:50 2020 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:17:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 10, 2020 02:03:22 pm Message-ID: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Talking during prayer is not a minhag. It is a hanhagah (Hebrew, like every language, has nuanced near-synonyms in matters of importance to its speakers). Jews do not talk during prayer thinking "this is how Jews should conduct themselves", or even "this is how Jews conduct themselves", and those cognitions are part of the definition of the word "minhag". The original poster asked for mistaken minhagim, which originated in the hamon `am, and which were subsequently tolerated by the scholarly class. Talking during prayer is not a mistaken minhag, because it is not a minhag at all. A minhag that satisfies the original poster's question -- as has already been pointed out by another contributor to this mailing list -- is praying for rain, not when you need rain, but when the people of Iraq need rain. Other minhagim that satisfy the original poster's question are wearing costumes on Purim, or not cutting a boy's hair till he is three years old. And there are numerous other idolatrous practices and superstitions that are found among Jews, like tugging your ear after you sneeze, or not walking over a baby, and if you do walk over a baby, then walking backwards over the baby to undo the walking forwards. If you read classic Yiddish literature, you will learn many minhagim regarding sickness which clearly belong to the category of "halloxesh `al hammakkah" but which were nearly universal among the Jews depicted in that literature, and which are not condemned by the Yiddish-speaking scholarly class even now. The practice of not eating kitniyyoth (deliberately left untranslated) on Passover also originated in the hamon `am, and was later ratified, and even codified, by the scholarly class, but I would abolish it if I could, because, inter alia, it makes it more expensive to observe Passover, and God cares about the property of His people. There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An example of this category is the practice of earning a living from teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. An even more odious example is the practice of "kollel", which involves paying people, not even to teach Torah, but just to learn it. This is not only prohibited by Jewish law, but also condemned in the strongest terms; yet the scholarly class have taken a prohibition, and turned it into a commandment, because it benefits them. A third example is draft exemptions for yeshiva students, even though -- as has been pointed out before on this mailing list -- the halakha clearly states that "bmilxemeth mitzva hakkol yotz'im, afilu xathan mixedro vkhallah mixupathah". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:43:23 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minhagim Message-ID: R' Martin Brody wrote: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Rambam's rejection can be distinguished from what we do now. The Rambam also held that we never change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta?am tachton, and so it appears we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with ta?am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, in which case it?s perfectly fine to stand. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:45:42 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah Message-ID: The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he does so here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Feb 11 10:20:47 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58288555-F618-4C81-866B-E853B664DA8C@cox.net> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who consistently stood for the entire leining. I would assume that was their minhag. The other thing I learned that many of my peers did not know and that was the halacha regarding whether you stand for the sh?ma or sit. The answer is if you are already sitting, you remain seated and conversely, if you are already standing, you remain standing. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 11 14:34:55 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should they daven? what else should they do?)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 14 08:25:30 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:25:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I typically eat only cholov Yisrael products. Accidentally, I bought a cereal that is labeled OU-D. I checked with the OU?s Webbe Rebbe (Kosherq at OU.org) and was told the cereal does not contain actual dairy, but it is made on dairy equipment. I opened the box, and I can no longer return it to the store. May I eat the cereal? A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot must be kashered before it is re-used. Nonetheless, there are various positions among poskim regarding food that was cooked in cholov akum pots in our contemporary times. The issue revolves around the current status of commercial milk. It is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l and other contemporary poskim held that the prohibition of cholov akum does not apply to commercial milk which is regulated and monitored by government agencies. Others reject this leniency. Still a third group are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As such, there are the following positions: * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position on commercial milk would obviously have no problem cooking in pots used for cholov stam. (Cholov stam is milk that was not supervised by a mashgiach, but was produced in a dairy that is monitored for purity by government inspectors.) * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a chumrah (stringency). This position is further split into two camps with respect to cholov stam keilim : Some are stringent only regarding actual cholov stam, but are lenient with respect to cholov stam keilim. This was the position of Rav Henkin, zt?l (Teshuvos Ivra 43). Others maintained the same stringency applies to keilim as well. Rav Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan HaLevi 22:5) writes that this was the position of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt?l. Nonetheless, one can argue that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would allow using a cholov stam pot that may have been unused for 24 hours. The basis for this is the Shach (YD 119:20) who writes that if a person has a chumra that his neighbor does not observe, he may still eat food that was cooked in his neighbors pot, so long as the food was not cooked specifically for him (i.e., the food was also cooked for those who are not strict), and it is not known if the pot was used in the past 24 hours. A similar argument can be made to permit the cereal in our original question, since it was already purchased, and it is not known if the equipment was used for dairy in the past 24 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 07:30:09 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] HALF A SHEKEL IS BETTER THAN NONE Message-ID: <29FD8EA8-0052-4B93-ACD1-422064094773@cox.net> As you know, this Shabbos is Shabbos Shekalim as well as Shabbos M'vorchim. I'm reminded of the Hazzan who was chanting the Rosh Chodesh Bentching and was very careful not to repeat words. But he had to fit the melody to the prayer so he sang ".....chayim she parnoso, chayim shel shekalim....." At least the uninformed realized it was Shabbos Shekalim. The Mishna Meg. 3:4 explains in the days of the monarchy, the shekel tax had become a permanent institution, and its proceeds together with other freewill offerings were used to maintain and repair the Temple (ll Kings 12:15-17; 22:3-7). Since the shekel tax was due on the first of Nisan, the Rabbis ordained that this section (30:11-16) be read as an added Torah portion about a month before: on the Shabbos before the new moon of Adar or on Rosh Chodesh itself, if it fell on Shabbos. Because of this added reading the Sabbath has become known as Shabbos Shekalim. (There is also a talmudic treatise called Shekalim). L?havdil, as a side, Christian Scriptures, Matthew 17:27, notes that Peter paid the tax for both himself and his master. The Zionist movement at its first congress (1897) revived the shekel as a common expression of support for Eretz Yisroel. The number of shekel holders became an indication of the strength of political Zionism. There were 165,000 in 1907 and in 1946 there were 2,160,000. In Yalkut Me'am Lo'ez. Sh?mos, Vol.lll, pp. 1068-1069, the question is asked why the sum chosen for expiation was fixed at one-half shekel (30:15). The reason was because Joseph had been sold into Egypt by his brothers for twenty dinars, i.e. five shekels. There being ten brothers, this amounted to a profit of one-half shekel for each. Another explanation: It was expiation for the sin of the golden calf. (Though this sin is told later, in chapter 32, the comment is based on the talmudic principle of Ein mukdam um'uchar baTorah. This same issue is raised in Mishpatim because Ch.24 shifts from the laws, that have been the subject of the Sidrah, back to the Revelation at Sinai. There is a machlokes among the m'forshim regarding when the events in this chapter took place. According to Rashi, the events recorded in verses 1-11 occurred before the Ten Commandments were given. Ramban, Ibn ezra, Rashbam, among others, maintain that these events took place after Israel had received the Ten Commandments and Moses had taught them the laws of the previous 3 chapters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 12:52:19 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 15:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag Message-ID: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> I?m not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until ?Im kesef talve.? And the second week is the second half. I don?t know which haftarah they use for the second week. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 17 20:52:17 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag In-Reply-To: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> References: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200218045217.GA2684@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 03:52:19PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely > a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot > read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until "Im > kesef talve." And the second week is the second half. I don't know which > haftarah they use for the second week. I had always wondered why the standard chapterization of the Seifer haChinukh starts a new parashash there. I was wondering if this was an actual minhag, or just a way to split up the 52 mitzvos that are in Mishpatim to more managable chapters. Now I know! Thanks. The Chinukh was written by R Aharon haLeci in Barcelona in the 13th cent. Although the chapterization may be far later, so I don't know what that says about the scope and evolution of that minhag. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 18 13:51:24 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim Message-ID: Heard in a daf yomi shiur -- R Sholom Rosner was: -- critical of minhag of oleh to not say birkas hatorah on tochacha -- critical of the minhag that women don't make a mezumin when they are three on their own; or, if with 10 men, not answering the mizumin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:23:05 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:23:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:25:46 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers Message-ID: I spent some time looking for commentaries explaining the focus on the donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers. I realize it's probably projection but I came up with two possibilities. The first was that many places the donkey seems to be taking somebody to their destiny (Think avraham Moshe bilaam......)I was thinking when they might've been concerned that they would be unable to fulfill theirs My other thought was that they represented technological extensions Of human ability ( think vcivshuha) And they would be unable to fulfill their human capabilities and be no more than another animal Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at chamor and saw chomer(material world) Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 20 11:11:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200220191100.GA15866@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:23:05AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: > But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? In terms of the tech, we're not close yet, and may never be. To weave a derashah into my explanation of that sentence, the word "binah" can refer to thought in at least two ways: - from "bein", the art of making distinctions -- bein qodesh lekhol, bein or lechoshekh... Being able to characterize this as an A, that as a B, this is spam, this is not spam. And when things are not separated: this A and B share features that would allow them to belong to the same font, whereas that A & B are in another. Finding the limits of sets, to know what to separate. That's what AI is now doing. Using what boils down to a lot of linear algebra to draw lines between sets using known examples of what's in and what's out. That can be obvious in cases of AI reading CT or MRI scans. But that is also how automous vehicles decide when to change lanes, accelerate, or whatnot. There are two sets: a right time and a wrong time. - from "binyan", the art of combining facts. Whether making deductions of the sort you did formally in Geomatry class, or inductions -- figuring out that those sets even exist. There is AI that does binyan-binah. It is very simple, generally just searching the space of possibilities until it hits sueccess (as defined for it). That's not what ML is about, and it's not where we are close to the commercial application. And may never be. Then there is informal thought. Conclusions you can only reach because you not only have a concept of red in your head, but you know what it is like to see red. (Apologies to the color blind for that example.) In terms of hashkafah... I argued that lo bashamayim hee has more to do with whose hands halakhh is in than whose it isn't. A pesaq can only come from someone who (to jump ahead to the end of the statement) "befikha ublivavkha la'asoso". Related to that knowing what red is *like*, knowing what moral is *like* is arguably a fundamental element of what a poseiq brings to the question. And even if that argument fails hashkafically, halachically pro forma a poseiq must be a mentally competent Jewish male adult who you believed has the appropriate knowledge, ability and experience (experiential knowledge?). It's the difference between whether any error would be your aveira beshogeig or your doing the right thing in following a pesaq. (And the the case of a human poseiq, their shogeig.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything. http://www.aishdas.org/asp If you want time, you must make it. Author: Widen Your Tent - Charles Buxton - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From cantorwolberg at cox.net Fri Feb 21 05:54:14 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Purim Twist Message-ID: <810C4798-B74F-40A2-B8AA-1CF357667DF4@cox.net> 1) We're all familiar with the custom and law of making much noise when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the Megilla. The standard answer to why we do it is to drown out his name. I see another reason. We must make a lot of noise against EVIL. Haman, a descendant of Amalek, is evil personified. We cannot be silent in the face of evil. We must yell, shout, and make all the noise we can. (Does this sound timely)? 2) If we were asked the etymology of the word "Megilla," we would say it comes from the word galal, "to roll." The word gelila, "wrapping the Torah" also comes from the same root. I came across a nice midrashic twist. As we know the word "Esther" has as its root "samech, tof, reish" for hidden. Interestingly, Megilla has been explained to have the root giluy, which means "revealed." Hence, we have a major theme for the Megilla -- revealing that which is hidden. From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Feb 21 07:49:15 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: "Rich, Joel" wrote: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article (to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts. In it, he talks about future possibilities. https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/ (PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form already.) It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether the machine-made connections make sense or not. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 11:58:18 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: > There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon > `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned > by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An > example of this category is the practice of earning a living from > teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like the Rambam. There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo. (Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but the Bartenura disagrees apparently.) R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah to make your daily bread? Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original: Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for, and not the learning itself. Thinking out loud: The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod, that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution instead of just "don't take pay". But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that "most". On to a very different topic, same subject line... On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I recall in my youth that there were individuals who > consistently stood for the entire leining. I would > assume that was their minhag. My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian. Amu"sh.) My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk, not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam, and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing for the diberos: > he Rambam also held that we never > change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that > we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears > we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. > My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with > ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, > in which case it's perfectly fine to stand. Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for everything. Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos. Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean a- pesaqim specific to a community b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin c- ... anything else? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:45:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour to chatzos is only bedi'eved. So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:53:40 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224205340.GB9637@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at : chamor and saw chomer(material world) The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they are in charge of their chomer side. Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason" symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me, I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Feb 24 18:58:03 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:58:03 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? --------------------------- At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan KT Joel THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 25 09:00:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200225170034.GI27056@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved or hefsed situations. But I was confused about the first question: >> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, >> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven >> is at the beginning of that time range? On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening > with a minyan The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at haneitz. In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar. Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else is also yotzei. Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.) Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan. The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema (Rambam). Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 26 04:50:01 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply z'rizin makdimin. I'm even tempted to say that it has nothing to do with z'rizin makdimin, and the proof is that the same pasuk is used for two purposes: Shacharis at the very beginning of the day, and also Mincha at the very end. Mechaber 89:1 - "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." Brachos 29b - R' Yochanan said, "It's a mitzva to pray when the sun is red." R' Zeira said, "What's the pasuk? Yira'ucha im shamesh, v'lifnay yare'ach, dor dorim." (Tehillim 72:5) Brachos 29b Rashi - "Yira'ucha im shamesh" - This is Tefilas Yotzer. "V'lifnay yare'ach" - This is Tefilas Mincha. Shabbos 118b Rashi - "V'lifnay yare'ach" - Prior to the light of the moon, while the sun has not yet set. Brachos 29b Steinzaltz - "When the sun is red" - Tefilas Yotzer with Haneitz Hachama, and Tefilas Mincha with Shkias Hachama. Brachos 29b ArtScroll note 11 - These two times (just after sunrise and just prior to sunset) are the most propitious for reciting the morning and afternoon Prayers respectively. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva ( http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24777) which says: "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day to pray - "with sunrise." And optimal time for the Minchah prayer is at the end of the day, as the sun is setting - "before the moon." I believe that the above is true l'halacha, but in the l'maaseh there is a very big difference between Shacharis and Mincha, perhaps explained best by Gemara Brachos 29b, immediately after the line I quoted above. "In the west [Eretz Yisrael] they would curse someone who davens [Mincha] when the sun gets red. Why? Because he might miss the zman." In order words, there is no downside to saying Shacharis at the very earliest time, but there is a very great danger in delaying Mincha to the very latest time. I suspect that this is why discussions about the time for Mincha center on "How early CAN I daven", and not on "When is the BEST time to daven." Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 26 07:10:59 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200226151059.GE3829@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:50am EST, R Akiva Miller wrote: > R' Micha Berger wrote: >> So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. > The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply > z'rizin makdimin... Which is why my post continued. As I noted, the Rambam says it's the sole right time, and everything else is inferior. Why would he say that? Likely the pasuq the machaber quotes: > Mechaber 89:1 -- "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one > should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." And so, I concluded that the main reason is being chosheish for the Rambam's reasoning. But even if your confidence in halachic process is such that you don't need to go beyond the Tur's shitah and minhag yisrael, there is still zerizim maqdimin. But there is more! Because doing anything before minyan is lesse Majeste or borders on it. (Thus we don't eat before davening, uless needed for davening, we don't go in order to greet people...) So, there is more drive for "as early as possible" than most mitzvos. And I think that is why: > Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, > other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva > () which says: > "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day > to pray -- "with sunrise."... I have heard Breslover speakers argue similarly. Kevasiqin is for OT1H chassidim and other benei aliyah who want to follow the beautiful idea in the pasuq in Tehillim, and OTOH for Briskers and the sort who are regularly chosheshim for rejected shitos. But never caught on among those in the middle. (It is also more common among actual vasiqin, as waking up enough before haneitz to catch a minyan kevasiqin is frustratingly common among the more "ancient" among us. That's when my father amu"sh started.) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" -- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From eliturkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 14:17:58 2020 From: eliturkel at gmail.com (Eli Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 00:17:58 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus Message-ID: halkachic cautions in the face of coronavirus https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/02/precautions-in-shul-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus/ -- Eli Turkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 13:31:37 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> References: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200301213137.GA13398@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean > a- pesaqim specific to a community > b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin > c- ... anything else? RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis until marriage. Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes, it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's all post facto. And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost. So there is a (c) for my list c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic. Anyone have a suggestion for (d)? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 14:02:05 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following: > A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) > writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot > must be kashered before it is re-used... > are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but > nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As > such, there are the following positions: > * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be > halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as > non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. > * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient > position on commercial milk would... > * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position > in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a > chumrah... This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's, as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago). But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation. Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify. Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against adulterating his milk. Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS. Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly (YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews. Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all. So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or that of another CY eater.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift. http://www.aishdas.org/asp The purpose of life Author: Widen Your Tent is to give it away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Pablo Picasso From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 15:35:52 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly. For example, I recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold in NY as kosher was actually treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper kashrus standards.. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 15:58:22 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <07ea01d5f025$4c5d3250$e51796f0$@aishdas.org> From: Prof. Levine Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST > At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. > Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for > those who wanted to keep kosher properly... But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened? My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical, since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting pesaq halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Mar 1 20:11:23 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 04:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. -------------------------------------- And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 2 07:30:52 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > following the Peri Chadash against the CS. Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all he does is cite the Radvaz? > So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes > is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or > that of another CY eater.) Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was used with was non-CY milk. If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed up in good faith. But if you hold that it's actually kosher then there's no problem in the first place. And if you're kind of in the middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as snifim lehakel. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 2 13:01:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200302210134.GC3266@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. > Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all > he does is cite the Radvaz? I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse. -Micha From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:34:37 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mezuzah checked Message-ID: From the OU: Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done? A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years (i.e., every 3? years). ......... Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions of their rav when a question would be appropriate. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:57 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot Message-ID: From R'Rimon in Hamizrachi: "In light of the above (me - shtarei hedyotot et al) it would be best if there were no ads at all in our Parshat Hashavua sheets"..... "However it is very difficult to abide by these demands in our times because it's the ads that fund the publication"... "Still it would be worth having clear guidelines" This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." I'd really appreciate a better understanding of the halachic force of this consideration. Oh, and did the publishers of Hamizrachi appreciate the irony of this article appearing in their publication with advertisement which is distributed in many shuls on Shabbat? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 10:59:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self Message-ID: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Experiencing the tzelem Elokim as proof there is an Elokim? See https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/search-soul-john-cottingham-review or http://bit.ly/3czL1aK Snippets / teasers: New Statesman The paradox of an atheist soul Why the idea of a single self only makes sense in a theistic world. By John Gray There are many arguments for theism, most of them not worth rehearsing. ... A different and more interesting approach is to argue that theism is suggested by the fact that we experience ourselves as unified, conscious beings - in other words, as having a soul. Not necessarily an immaterial entity, the soul is the part of us that strives to realise what is best in our nature. We do not come to know the soul through any special revelation. We know it by considering the kind of creature we find ourselves to be - a thinking being inhabiting a life-world that seems to reflect a mind greater than our own. Once we realise we have a soul, theism becomes a credible way of thinking. Such is the approach adopted in this lucid and illuminating book by John Cottingham, professor of the philosophy of religion at University of Roehampton.... Cottingham presents a version of the transcendental argument deployed by the German Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804). A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, it asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are accepted as given. Kant used it to support his belief in a universal moral law and, at points in his writings, the existence of God. As used by Cottingham, its purpose is to refute the Scottish sceptic David Hume (1711-1776), whom Kant described as "having interrupted my dogmatic slumber". In A Treatise of Human Nature (1739), Hume had written that the self is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed one another with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement". If the self is not an autonomous entity but an assemblage of sensations Kant's theistic faith crumbles into dust. Cottingham spells out the connection between theism and the idea of the self: It is a fundamental theistic belief, following the words of Genesis, that human beings are made "in the image" of God; and this is taken to be especially true in virtue of our conscious minds, in virtue of our attributes of intellect and will. Theism thus posits a source of ground of all being that is somehow mind-like: consciousness is taken to be at the heart of reality. The theistic picture tends to be discarded or ignored by the majority of contemporary philosophers, but it seems perverse to dismiss it from consideration should it turn out to fit rather well with certain aspects of reality that cannot in integrity be denied... [such as] the irreducible reality of consciousness. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 11:15:13 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> In a recent post in Torah Musings , R Daniel Mann answers a question about a new practice some have regarding parashas Zakhor. Again, snippets: Question: My shul has always read Parashat Zachor once, with our regular havara (pronunciation). Some people now complain that we do not follow other shuls and read multiple times with different havarot to fulfill the mitzva according to more opinions and to do the mitzva properly for Sephardim. Should we change our minhag? First he brings arguments that one doesn't need correct havara to be yotzei. Whether because the deOraisa doesn't need to be in lashon haqodesh, or perhaps has no specific text, or RMF's (IM OC 3:5) proof from chalitza that havara is not meqev, or that an Ashkenzi who doesn't distinguish between alef and ayin may serve as chazan for Ashkenazim... The latter two arguments saying that "correct havarah" is societal. Still, one might need to have Parashas Zakhor available in many havaros if the community is of people of different eidos. At least as a chumerah. But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... Several (Teshuvot V'hanhagot ibid.; Halichot Shlomo ibid.; Aseh Lecha Rav VI:22) mention hearing of such a new practice and consider it strange. They reject it as being disrespectful to the tzibbur, to the rest of our lainings, and/or to past generations who did not do such things. I would not criticize a minyan that decides to do so anyway (some fine places do), and there are circumstances in which there is a stronger argument (e.g., there is no minyan in the area of other eidot), but it is wrong to criticize the normal minhag for not adopting this innovation. In the early days of the list, I was particularly prone to Brisker chumeros (trying to be yotzei as many shitos as possible) or to chumeros or pesaqim that allow expression of how I understood the mitzvah hashkafically. I think learning a cycle and a fraction of AhS Yomi has toned that down. At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of confidence in the halachic process. As for hashkafically motivated pesaq, that's still with me more. But I think I've gotten to an age where I finally understand the value of continuity as well. (I mentioned before, though, my mother's observation about the family she married in to. My grandfather got to the US too young to be aware of most of his minhagim and therefore ended up acting as per R/Dr Mirsky's shiurim. My father's decades of "the Rav's" (RYBS's) Tues night shiur, and repreatedly took on the implications of those shiurim. And then my own habits. Doing what fits what we learned in shiur last IS the onky continuity my family practice has.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Live as if you were living already for the http://www.aishdas.org/asp second time and as if you had acted the first Author: Widen Your Tent time as wrongly as you are about to act now! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 4 11:36:42 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36.2D.07714.B14006E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:25 PM 3/4/2020, R. Joel Rich wrote: >People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients >listed on the label. > >-------------------------------------- >And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" >KT >Joel Rich Since when to two wrongs make a right? Also one has to keep in mind that in many places everything was made from scratch. My mother-in-law comes from a small town in Hungary. There was essentially no prepared anything. Baking was done at home, meat and chickens were kashered at home, etc. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Mar 6 08:19:30 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: Good stuff from Rav Aviner: http://www.ravaviner.com/2020/03/hilchot-corona.html Some of the questions include: Q: Is one obligated to listen to the instructions of the Ministry of Health regarding Corona? Q: Does one fulfill the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim on the phone? Q: If a person is in quarantine for Corona, what does he do about Davening in a Minyan? Q: Should one refrain from kissing Mezuzot on account of Corona? Q: How could someone get sick with Corona while hearing the Megillah when the Gemara states, "Harm will not befall one on the way to perform a Mitzvah"? Q: What is Hashem trying to teach us with the Corona Virus in the world? and many more -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 17:58:20 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing > practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, > some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different minhagim? -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 18:25:10 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > accepted as given. One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is universal. "Kol echad be`atzmo shi`er", and assumed everyone else must be the same. If that assumption is not true, it can lead to utter confusion, as people debate at cross-purposes, each completely unable to understand the other's arguments. See, for an example, https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like? Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even existed. The debate was resolved by Francis Galton, a fascinating man who among other achievements invented eugenics, the "wisdom of crowds", and standard deviation. Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images. Dr. Berman dubbed this the Typical Mind Fallacy: the human tendency to believe that one's own mental structure can be generalized to apply to everyone else's. -- Zev Sero Have a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:23:48 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: > One should therefore refrain from touching or kissing Mezuzot. < My practice for some time has been to "point to" (essentially, reach towards but not touch) the m'zuzah as I pass (and when I leave my house, to say, "Baruch ata b'vo'echa, uvaruch ata b'tzeisecha"). However, having trouble getting used to a clenched-fist (and hate the dangerous elbow) greeting... :). --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:53:00 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. Very well phrased! I have often felt this way, but was unable to find the words to express it. Thank you. For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Mar 9 07:09:31 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. ----------------------------------- Or a lack of confidence in oneself (or their ability/worthiness to decide)? I often think of R? Schachter comparing the personalities of R? Chaim and the Netziv and wonder if this could be explained on that basis. Enough said? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 11 11:47:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:47:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] NYT Ethicist Message-ID: NYT Ethicist - What would halacha be? Q.I have been struck by a fatal disease, inherited from my father. I have children, who know they have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the disease from me. I have several siblings. One has children of her own. She has so far refused to be tested on the off chance that she, too, has the gene. This means that her children don't know anything about the cause of my disease. There are interventions that could protect any future grandchildren, but her children don't know they are in danger of passing the disease along. I have been tempted to tell my sister's children myself, but I know this would result in a major breach in our relationship (a real loss to me). What is my ethical responsibility here? Name Withheld A. ... The trouble isn't that your sister refuses to be tested. That's her choice. ... The trouble is that she wants to prevent her children from knowing what she already knows. By keeping them in the dark, she's robbing them of the ability to make their own choices. And here's a critical point. Even if they declined to be tested themselves, simply knowing that they're at risk would enable them to protect any children they might have in the future, through "nondisclosure testing." Clinics can conduct pre?implantation embryo screening without sharing the results with the at-risk parent... Preserving your own uncertainty is defensible; putting others in jeopardy is not... As painful as a breach in your relationship with your sister would be, it's clear that your sister's misguided plan is itself weighing heavily on you. Urge her to level with her children about the facts. (She could implore them not to tell her if they are tested and get a positive result.) Were she still to refuse, tell them yourself. KT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:53:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200311205357.GG11689@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 08:58:20PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing >> practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, >> some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... > How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 > kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different > minhagim? Chazal wanted everyone doing the same thing, but rather than mandate one definition of the teru'ah to the exclusion of the others, we all do all three of them. This innovation breaks from everyone doing the same. But more than that... Chazal had the power to pasqen and would have pasqened if they didn't feel this compromise brought more achdus. Being chosheish for shitas Rashi after centuries of no one (or kim'at no one) blew according to shitas Rashi is an unwillingness to pasqen. And an unwillingness to accept that the halachic process can actually say A is right and B wrong. It's questioning the whole concept of pesaq! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:02:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311200248.GD11689@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:45:42AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be > holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six > different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). > > This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he > does so here? Never found an answer, and a month later, I'm giving up. BUT, I liked the Y-mi's explanation at the end of Challah pereq 1 (vilna daf 9b) cited at the SA ad loc by the Gra -- OC 167 s"q 4 . The ten fingers are a reminder of the 10 mitzvos it took to get the bread: 1- Lo sacharosh - Not plowing with a kelaim of animals 2- Bal tizra - Not planting kelaim 3- Bal tachsom - Not muzzling the animals to keep them from eating 4- Leqet 5- Shikhechah 6- Pei'ah 7- Terumah 8- Maaser Rishon 9- Maaser Sheini (or Maaser Ani, depending on the year, though not mentioned in the Y-mi) 10- Challah Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:20:47 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live R Ari Kahn (of Bar Ilan) came out in favor of such readings, the mar'eh meqomos for his shiur are available at https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2020/03/hearing-megillah-over-telephone-or.html AIUI, RAK's primary concern was to reassure people who have no choice, and to make sure questionable cases don't risk spreading disease by showing up. So he really presents the case for only one side. RGS pointed people to R Daniel Z Feldman's (RIETS) older piece (not reflecting this year's she'as hadechaq) in Tradition at https://traditiononline.org/the-virtual-minyain which gives both sides of the story. I tried to lend my megillah to someone so that they could listen to the above-linked reading at YU and read along from a kosher megillah. But, my livingroom is being painted, the bookcase where I keep my megillah was among those boxed up, and someone else beat me to the mitzvah. In Westchester County, NY, Chabad managed to organize leining for 100 quarantined people by having the baal qeriah read on a deck or porch, outside an open door or window. But such arrangements are not available to everyone. I saw on Facebook the following social concern that I thought was interesting and valid enough to share here. https://www.facebook.com/matthew.kritz.9/posts/2899197760173502 R Matthew Nitzanim writes (in part): This is why I fear the live-feed Megillah readings. There is no doubt that it is the most practical solution to ensure more people hear the Megillah, without risking more people catching the virus, and there is arguably halachic grounds to allow the practice (even as the debate continues), especially under these extenuating circumstances. But once virtual readings are normalized, what will Purim look like next year? I'm not too worried about no one showing up for Megillah next year - we all know it's more fun to boo for Haman and show off our costumes with friends around. But what about all those people who are alone, boxed out of society? Will the hospital and the rehab center call the local yeshiva for volunteers to come visit, or will they suffice with arranging a dial-in reading (which will inevitably come to be replaced with a recording for those who can't distinguish)? Will the readers and merry-makers of years past feel less push to pay visits when the mitzvah can be fulfilled electronically? Certainly this change wouldn't happen in just one year, but perhaps we are setting a precedent that will be taken seriously in years to come. Because what's at stake is not merely the obligation to hear the Megillah. What is at stake is the future of community and interpersonal connection in the age of digital media. Performing one of our most communal mitzvot through a screen means radically reimagining the very meaning of community, a process that is already well underway. Among the Orthodox, the study of Torah, traditionally intended to bring people into the same room, is increasingly done via recorded shiurim. Elsewhere in the Jewish world, services are taped and can be watched from home, and you can even find a dial-in Kaddish minyan. And shout out to the various Skype Seudot and Zoom Tishes spreading Purim cheer to the quarantined. Each of these is an exciting way digital communication can be used to better include those would otherwise be left out. But if we aren't careful with the pace of development, we will end up creating tools that, although intended to increase connection and participation, will further distance and disenfranchise those who were already only hoping for a visitor or two, and will be left with nothing but a computer screen. What we are watching is reminiscent of the Conservative Movement's ruling permitting driving on Shabbat -- intended to increase access to communal life, but perhaps in the process weakening the physical proximity that keeps community alive, with only time to tell whether the benefits outweigh the costs. So too with screen talk: appealing as it may be in this moment, down the road, we risk harming the very deep sense of community that held us together in ancient Persia and through the ages to this very day. Maybe this is a moment where we would benefit from Halacha being less accommodating of the present, and more oppositional and countercultural.... So he recommends making a heqer: So be cautious this Purim, not only hygienically, but spiritually too. If I had a say, I would encourage those who are doing the holy work of reading Megillah by livestream for people in quarantine not to say the Brachot, even if they are also reading for themselves, to make clear that this is a sub par, temporary fix, and not necessarily an ideal, long term change. And finally, this nice thought is off topic for the thread, but worth sharing: More importantly, for everyone stuck at home this Purim, please take it upon yourself, once your quarantine is LONG SINCE OVER, to pay a visit to someone who feels alone for more than two weeks at a time. It can be next Purim, or maybe even sooner. Take your experience of being homebound, and allow it to be a springboard for being more aware of the many, many people who would give anything not to be alone, to be greeted by a friendly face with a warm smile, by someone who remembered that it's Purim for them too. More than an ecard, or a phone call, or a Zoom chat, what they really want to see is you. qiyum is suboptimal. -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:28:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202821.GF11689@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving > priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." What the "this" was aside, I didn't think that's why we ignore those priorities. Rather, it ends up never being halakhah lemaaseh even from day one. The mishnah itself says these priorities are "all else being equal". And all else is never equal. The reisha is just one triage factor among many. The problem, thus, isn't abiding, but in deciding which mamzer is enough of a talmid chakham to go ahead of the kohein gadol, or which baal chessed outranks the innate qedushah of a kohein. Or... Lack of ability to assess, not lack of emotional constitution to follow through. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:56:30 2020 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or rimon? On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos > that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic > transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > > From penkap at panix.com Wed Mar 11 18:28:28 2020 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: ? For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" ?And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. ?So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. ?A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers.? The amount of sechel in this comment is almost overwhelming. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 11 21:26:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Perhaps one can add as a snif to "permit" it the Chasam Sofer on Hil' Kidush Levana, citing a case during a cholera epidemic in Cracow, when the rov of the time found a heter to say kidush levana on the 16th night so that people who would not otherwise be able to say it should not get depressed and ch"v endanger themselves. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:58:07 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: On Areivim, the issue was raised that the shuls in Bergen County NJ are now closed, and the question of "house minyanim" was raised too. I have a question about house minyanim that I'd like to discuss. My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. Once that minyan exists, additional people can be in adjoining rooms, provided that they can see and hear. I've often been at house minyanim where fewer people are in the room with the Shliach Tzibur, and the rest are in an adjoining room. The doorway between them is so wide that people don't give it a second thought. It seems to me that even though there is no actual door separating these two rooms, the fact that there's a mezuzah between them might define them as distinct rooms for the halacha of establishing a minyan. I hope I have explained the situation clearly enough. The MB does not seem to specify the width of the doorway in question, nor did I see any distinction between a "doorway" and an "open door". I suppose someone could argue that the problem exists only for standard-width doors which happen to be open at the moment, and that there's no problem for a living room and dining room that happen to have a mezuzah between them. Has anyone see any poskim write about this? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:02:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hand shake Message-ID: Listened to a shiur where the magid shiur said that R'X used to advise job interviewees to use the dead fish handshake, then later advised the iron man handshake until he was told that each of those would not get you a job. Now he advises a firm, quick business-like handshake. May I vent - I heard R'X say these things over the years and always wondered who he had asked about the real world. How many job opportunities were lost?? etc.?? How much of a responsibility does a poseik have to determine "reality"? (Another example - toveiling electronics) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:04:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals Message-ID: Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 18 08:05:11 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> On 18/3/20 3:04 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals > per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in > halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and condiments to make the bread taste better. Sometimes a grain porridge would substitute for the bread, but the essential roles were the same. To us, the bread, if it appears at all, is a condiment or entree to the real food. We don't eat bread with meat, we eat meat with bread. Even with grains, we regard them as a side dish, not as the main part of the course. So in principle the entire basis of hil' bh"n should be reversed. Next: Undoing the whole concept of 7 mashkim, and the principle that the juice of any fruit but grapes and olives is not a mashkeh. Not just in hil' bh"n and shabbos, but also in hil' taharos. (At least in principle, since they're not practical halachos anyway.) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 11:33:16 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: In Avodah V38n19, RAMiller noted: > My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. < But see the latter half of BH 55:14/MB 55:50. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Mar 15 18:42:51 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper _______________________________________________ Areivim mailing list Areivim at lists.aishdas.org http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 19 07:10:49 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 4 amos and Epidimeology Message-ID: <20200319141049.GA17120@aishdas.org> Is it "coincidence" or do you think it's common cause: The recommended distance to be sure we don't breathe on each other is given as 6 feet or 2 m, depending on what the masses being recommended to think in. Which "just happens to be" just around the 4 amos radius used to define a person's space for the sake of davening or acquisitions. (As an ammah is defined by to the Rambam, R Chaim Naeh, and the plaque on the wall found at Chizqiyahu's water tunnel. Not the CI. Would tzadiq gozer veE' meqayeim mean that people need to be be staying farther apart in Bnei Braq to be safe?) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 19 09:23:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> References: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> Message-ID: There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. =================================== He also said (From R' Torcyner translation): And after each prayer, evening and morning, they should recite Tehillim, certain psalms which his honour should select, and then the text of Kel rachum sh'mecha, Aneinu Hashem aneinu, Mi she'anah, and the Y'hi ratzon after Tehillim, mentioning in it the king, may Gd protect him, and his children and nobles and all who live in his land. IMHO the last part is also about the realization that a united community response is required bderech hateva (not each subsegment deciding on its own what to do) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 05:20:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:20:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger by R Herschel Schachter Message-ID: <20200320122008.GA4902@aishdas.org> This is an abornamlly long piece for Facebook, but it's making the rounds there. :-)BBii! -Micha The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger Rav Hershel Schachter Many have the mistaken impression that the Jewish religion places much emphasis on death and respect for the dead; after all, we recite kaddish, yizkor, observe shiva, and yahrzeit, etc. This is a gross misunderstanding. The respect that we show for the dead is a carryover from the respect that we show for the living. The Gemorah (Kesubos 17a, see Shitah Mekubetzes) tells us that whenever there is a conflict between kovod ha'chayim and kovod ha'meisim, kovod ha'chaim takes precedence. When the chevra kadisha brings in the aron at a funeral, everyone stands up. People mistakenly think that we stand up out of respect for the niftar, but in many cases we never stood up for him when he was alive, so why should we stand up for him now that he passed away? The Bartenurah (Mishnayos Bikurim 3:3) explains that we are not standing up out of respect for the niftar but rather out of respect for the members of the chevra kaddisha who are presently involved in the fulfillment of a mitzvah. The respect for the living is based on the premise that all human beings were created b'tzelem Elokim. When the Torah requires us to demonstrate kovod ha'meis, it means that even after the person passed away and no longer has tzelem Elokim, i.e. a neshama, we still have to act respectfully towards the body because it used to have a tzelem Elokim. Of the six hundred and thirteen mitzvos, one of the most important is the mitzvah of v'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem (Yoma 85b). Not only does the halacha require that if there is a sofek sakanah we must violate almost all of the mitzvos in the Torah to save a life, but we are also required to do so even if there is only a s'fek s'feika, a remote possibility(Yoma 85a). The Gemorah (ibid) adds that even if the likelihood is that by violating Shabbos or whatever other aveira we most probably will not be saving anyone's life, we still do not abstain from the action due to that likelihood (rove - majority). When Bnei Yisroel were traveling in the midbar for 40 years, the weather conditions were such that there was a slight sakanah in performing bris milah. Most of the sh'votim did not fulfill the mitzvah except for sheivet Levi[1]. They had an Orthodox rabbi among them, i.e. Moshe Rabbeinu. Why didn't all the shevatim ask him what to about this sofek sakanah? If it is a real sofek sakanah he should not have permitted sheivet Levi to perform the mitzvah despite their pietistic protests, and if the sofek sakanah was so insignificant that it simply should have been dismissed, why didn't he insist that all the shevatim perform the mitzvah of milah? The Gemorah (Yevamos 12b) tells us that the answer is to be found in Tehillim (116:6), "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." Whenever there is a slight sofek sakanah that is nowhere near fifty-fifty[2], the halacha declares that it depends on the attitude of the patient. If the patient whose life is at risk (or the parent of the patient who is responsible for his well-being) is personally not nervous about the danger, then the halacha does not consider it a sofek sakanah; we apply "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." But if the patient whose life is at risk is nervous and concerned about the sofek sakanah, then the halacha requires us to act based on, "V'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem", and the sofek sakanah takes precedence over almost all of the mitzvos of the Torah. Shevet Levi had bitachon, and therefore were not concerned, and therefore for their children it was not considered a sofek sakanah, but with respect to the other shevatim who were concerned it was in fact a sofek sakanah, so every shevet was acting k'din. However, if one individual is not concerned, but the nature of the sakanah is such that everyone is interdependent and the individual who personally is not nervous may possibly spread a disease to others who are concerned about its spread, then the concept of Shomer p'soyim Hashem does not apply. The individual who is not concerned does not have the right to determine for the others who are concerned that there is no sakanah for them. The Rakanti[3] relates that one of Ba'alei Ha'tosfos was deathly sick before Yom Kippur and the doctors warned him that if he fasts he will certainly die but if he eats on Yom Kippur there is a slim chance that he may survive. He decided to fast, and of course he died. All of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos were upset over his decision and felt that he went against the halacha. If a terrorist threatens to kill me unless I violate one of the mitzvos of the Torah, the halacha usually is that pikuach nefesh takes precedence over most of the mitzvos in the Torah. What if an individual wants to put up a fight knowing that he may well lose his life but thinks that by being moser nefesh he will fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem? This matter was a famous dispute amongst the Rishonim. The Rambam's opinion is that one may not volunteer to give up his life al kiddush Hashem when not required by halacha because this is tantamount to suicide[4]. Many other Rishonim disagreed with the Rambam. However, if there is no terrorist pressuring me to violate my religion, but there is merely a dangerous situation of sickness then all of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos agreed with the Rambam that it would not constitute a midas chassidus to ignore the sakanah[5]. In determining what is a sakanah and what is not, the practice of the Tanoim always was to follow the doctors of their generation. Every so often the Rambam would take a stand on a medical issue against what it says in the Gemorah and the Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah #101) explains that the Rambam was a doctor and he did exactly as the Tanoim did, namely, to follow the doctors of his generation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 331:9) also says explicitly that we follow the doctors of our generation even in contradiction to the medicine recommended in the Gemorah. We should certainly do the same as the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and follow the doctors of our generation in determining what is considered a sakanah and what is not considered a sakanah. Some well-meaning individuals have blown out of halachic proportion the significance of tefillah b'tzibur and talmud Torah b'rabim and have opted to ignore the sofek sakanah presented by the corona virus when in conflict with these two most important mitzvos. We live in a generation where many b'nei Torah tend to exaggerate the significance of Torah and tefillah. Although their intention is certainly l'shaim Shomayim, we must all keep in mind that when paskening shailos, one may not rely on an exaggeration. All exaggerations by definition are sheker - a misrepresentation of the truth of the Torah. Rav Chaim Volozhiner signs off quite a few of his teshuvos saying, "Keil Emes, Nosan lanu Toras Emes, u'bilti el ho'emes eineinu - the true God gave us the true Torah, and we only look for the truth." Any exaggeration in the area of Torah and halacha is clearly a misrepresentation of our religion. The commentaries on Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 157) refer to the comments of the Maharshal in his sefer Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kamma 38a) that to misrepresent a law of the Torah constitutes an aveira related to avodah zorah[6] and as such would be subject to the principle of yeihoreig v'al ya'avor. With respect to a sofek sakanah the halacha clearly requires that we go extremely l'chumrah. Especially religious Jews, who know that they are charged with a mission in life, should certainly be extremely machmir on matters of sofek sakanah. Although every word of a poem appears in the dictionary, the poet conveys an idea by putting the words in a certain order. So too, different people can have the same ideas and the same principles, but if you put them in a different arrangement you have changed the whole understanding if each one of the principles[7]. Once you exaggerate the significance of any particular mitzvah, you have misrepresented the whole picture of kol haTorah kula. [1] See Rashi, Devarim 33:9. [2] See Achiezer, volume 1, #23,2. [3] Siman 166; see Teshuvos Dvar Yehoshua, vol. 2 #94 [4] Hilchos Yesodei haTorah, 5:1. [5] See Mishna Berura 328:6. [6] Because we believe that the Torah is a description of the essence of G-d, misrepresenting the Torah is tantamount to misrepresenting G-d Himself [7] Thoughts 1:22, by Blaise Pascal` From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 07:07:03 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Message-ID: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> R R Wolpoe or R Ben Hecht (the blog post gives me mixed signals) posted the following guidelines from R Yaakov Hoffman of the Washington Heights Congregation designed for his congregation. (Not to be confused with R Yair Hoffman of the 5TJT.) http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-rrw-guest-blogger-rabbi-yaakov.html On factor I noticed RYH didn't mention that I saw others did was maintaining your usual davening times. (Assuming we're not talking about kevasiqin as the other option.) :-)BBii! -Micha NishmaBlog Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Friday, 20 March 2020 >From RRW Guest Blogger: Rabbi Yaakov Hoffman Below is a halachic guide I prepared for my shul on how to daven on Shabbos without a minyan, and general halachos one should know that are affected by not being in a shul framework on Shabbos. Feel free to use/adapt for your own shuls. Also, I would be happy to receive any he'aros you may have. Thanks. Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide - One should make an effort to daven Mincha on Friday before plag ha-mincha (this week ~5:50pm). - It is not necessary to recite the full Kabbalat Shabbat as recited in shul; reciting Lecha Dodi, Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat, Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh, and Bameh Madlikin is sufficient. One should recite Lecha Dodi and Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat before sunset (this week ~7:07pm). - Although ordinarily one should daven Maariv after nightfall when praying without a minyan, on Friday evening one may daven after plag (preferably one should wait ~20 minutes after plag). The Shema must be repeated after nightfall (tzeit ha-kochavim, this Friday ~7:42pm). - One may make Kiddush and begin the meal immediately after davening Maariv. If one has not yet begun the meal by tzeit ha-kochavim, one must repeat the Shema before eating. - Those who arise early are strongly encouraged to daven ke-vatikin -- timing one's Shacharit to begin the Amidah at sunrise (this week ~6:56am). - If one is pressed for time (e.g., in order to daven at sunrise, or because one needs to help out at home), one can skip the extra psalms added during Psukei de-Zimra on Shabbat, with the exception of Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat and Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh. - Men should take care to daven Shacharit before the latest time for the Shema (this week ~10am). - After the Amidah of Shacharit, one recites Ashrei and then the Amidah of Musaf, followed by Ein k'Elokeinu, Aleinu, and Shir shel Yom. - It is extremely advisable to read or study the weekly parashah at some point over Shabbat (and to be extra careful about shnayim mikra during the preceding week). - On Shabbat Mevarchim, it is a good idea to remind oneself and one's household about the upcoming Rosh Chodesh (Rosh Chodesh Nisan is Thursday March 26). One does not recite the formal prayer for the upcoming month that is recited in shul. - One should wash for the Shabbat morning meal before midday (this week ~1pm). - One should daven Mincha before eating se`udah shlishit. - Se`udah shlishit should begin before sunset, and may extend as long as one likes. After benching, or after 10 minutes post-sunset (whichever is later), one may not eat or drink anything except water until after Havdalah. - One should not daven Maariv on Saturday night until after Shabbat is over (this week ~7:50pm); preferably, one should not do any melacha before davening Maariv (with atah chonantanu) or making Havdalah. - Baruch Hashem L'Olam is omitted in Maariv when not davening with a minyan. The rest of Maariv, including additions for motza'ei Shabbat, is recited as usual. Veyiten lecha may be recited after Havdalah. Vihi no`am and ve'attah kadosh are omitted on the Saturday night preceding Pesach (and Shavuot, but hopefully we will be back in shul well before then!), but veyiten lecha is still recited. Yaakov Hoffman Rabbi, Washington Heights Congregation[5] www.bridgeshul.com Posted by Rabbi Ben Hecht at 9:08 am From dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk Fri Mar 20 05:02:57 2020 From: dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk (D Rubin) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> References: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 From: Zev Sero > I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so > completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made > hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who > can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and > condiments to make the bread taste better... http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29994 From zev at sero.name Fri Mar 20 08:38:46 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Also omit bracha me'ein sheva, as one does whenever one is not davening with a regularly scheduled minyan. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at Segalco.com Sat Mar 21 11:26:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Interesting-no mention of remembering to dress for shabbat KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From isaac at balb.in Sat Mar 21 04:29:28 2020 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:29:28 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis a vis Lo Sa'amod? 2. Has there been any advice to Mohelim who normally do Metzitza bPeh to cease the practice at this time? 3. Does a Rav have a Chiyuv as Mesader Kiddushin to cease proceedings until there is (in Australia) 4 meters square between people 4. Does a Caterer have a Chiyuv to cease serving food at a Simcha or the like if it too is breaching guidelines? _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ??? From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:35:43 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kshering Metal Sinks Message-ID: . The Chicago CRC has a video on hag'alat keilim at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HSfRG69ho&feature=youtu.be I am curious about two things he said at 6:52-6:59, about kashering a metal sink: 1) "make sure that it's a continuous flow and not to stop in the middle from that pot" 2) "start from the bottom and then you work your way up" Why should it be a continuous flow? What's wrong with pausing the flow, as long as every square millimeter gets hit? And what is the advantage of doing the floor of the sink prior to the walls? Alternatively, what's the downside of kashering the walls first? My totally uneducated guess is that the runoff from the walls would do a "chozer v'niur" on the floor, cancelling the 24-hour wait, whereas if the floor is done first, the runoff from the walls is not sufficiently chometzdik to invalidate the kashering. Am I close? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 24 16:23:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: <20200324232314.GA12402@aishdas.org> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 I see two distinct conversations here: - Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? - Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc... When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria. -Micha IsraelNationalNews.com Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33 A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the presence of the "Zoom" program. The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly people who cannot be physically close to their family members due to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their family through the program. The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the start of the holiday. Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency. "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness, so is the case here," the rabbis wrote. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:29:48 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minor fasts? Message-ID: The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare with other b'al nefesh call outs? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:31:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut Message-ID: A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have failed this test. Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:18:33 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder Message-ID: More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to him? I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps, and we would not want to skip any of them. For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on, and then eating the karpas. But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha, the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately. Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on during the meal. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they arise. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 25 13:40:14 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:40:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:56:23 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325215623.GC14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > > accepted as given. > > One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is > universal.... Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal. > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example ... > Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually > a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't > think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist > that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." > Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of > famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading > scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even > existed. And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population. https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US. https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are non-sighted people. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:37:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> Message-ID: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: > 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching > government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis > a vis Lo Sa'amod? I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera > epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, > davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan > that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to > station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:33:51 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The 5780th Pasuk Message-ID: <20200325213351.GA11104@aishdas.org> There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the corresponding pasuq. So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24: Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov... Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to the year of RMF's petirah. So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28: Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah ve'ein bahem tevunah. Of course, I don't know what to make of that. OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth, 5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim): Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha... >From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at "R Eliyahu Shelomo". This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the 601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo: Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz... (I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es haqeitz.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:40:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? See AhS OC 158:13 , where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not, and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open -- safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:04:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325220433.GD14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote: > On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos >> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic >> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or > rimon? You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit if an esrog is unavailable. If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is complex. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Decisions are complex. Author: Widen Your Tent The Torah is complex. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' Binyamin Hecht From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:19:11 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: <20200325211911.GA6964@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable >> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as >> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the >> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt >> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would >> have failed this test. Thoughts? > He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his > colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, > Achiyah Hashiloni. The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact limits of a relative term. If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim, then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the seeds were there. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 10:40:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m! Message-ID: <20200326174000.GA8153@aishdas.org> Save the date! SAVE THE DATE Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020 1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom! https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598 There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time with a Facebook account, just email me at micha at aishdas.org and ask to be included. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 25 23:15:16 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. --------------------------- For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah KT and stay safe Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:14:21 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger asked: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 > ... > Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi > names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA > systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article. I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this in paragraph Aleph: "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei Ashkenaz. But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other reasons? Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 09:24:16 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >> a vis Lo Sa'amod? > > I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera >> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, >> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan >> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to >> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 12:14:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus Message-ID: <20200326191427.GB19172@aishdas.org> The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't want to post the question, but invited me to. RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that is particularly communicable. As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum number of people necessary. But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to the babies. Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear someone discuss the question? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From crclbas at mail.aol.com Thu Mar 26 13:16:34 2020 From: crclbas at mail.aol.com (BenS) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom seder Message-ID: <202003862i1634.GA18647@aishdas.org> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger wrote: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 ... >> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the >> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly >> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due >> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their >> family through the program. I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak. Ben From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 15:02:56 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >>> a vis Lo Sa'amod? >> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ... > No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In > that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested > that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government > to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it > (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing > them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know > how RAE would answer the question posed here. If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to have the police there to break up any violations? Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 17:01:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, > rather than prevent or break up violations? Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places, including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report* to the authorities a violation of *their* rules. Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not yours. So it's very different from RAE's case. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mgluck at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:45:27 2020 From: mgluck at gmail.com (mgluck at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> References: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <027501d603f2$89d05870$9d710950$@gmail.com> R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... ---- R' MB: I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? --------- IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing doesn't make him tahor either, according to that. KT, MYG From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:40:46 2020 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well > known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa > hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon > Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom > Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many > Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." > > Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei > Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or > whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei > Ashkenaz. > The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the latter option would seem to be correct. > > But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. > The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under those circumstances. > > But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a > regular basis? > Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice. ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less widespread. IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let alone the end of maggid, are minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:06:34 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim Message-ID: . For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating, then do we really have permission to break the fast? Think about that for a moment. If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English, so it's HIS words, not my translation.) <<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>> Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:33:50 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:33:50 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns Message-ID: . When I was younger, the electric urns that we used for hot water on Shabbos were very simple: fill it, plug it in, and there was a valve for taking the water when you needed it. But many of the newer ones have various settings. Mine ( https://www.amazon.com/ProChef-SM300-35-Cup-Water-Shabbostat/dp/B07FK8KTZ6) for example, has three settings, called Regular, Shabbat, and Yom Tov. The manual gives the following explanation of the three settings: > Regular Mode: Keeps the water hot based on the water temperature > Shabbat Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer > Yom Tov Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer and is Halachically permissible to add cold water on Yom Tov Based on that explanation, this is my understanding: In Regular Mode, the thermostat is in full control; when the water gets too cool the heater will turn on until the correct temperature is reached, and then the heater turns off. In Shabbat and Yom Tov modes, the thermostat never responds to the water being too cool. Rather, every so often the timer will turn the heater on, and the thermostat will turn the heater off when the water is hot enough. So what's the difference between Shabbat Mode and Yom Tov mode? If I would use the Shabbat Mode on Yov Tov, is it assur to add water? If I would use the Yom Tov Mode on Shabbat, is there a problem? These are not theoretical questions. If we are still in Chutz Laaretz for this coming Pesach, we'll have a "three day yom tov", and I don't know which setting is preferable. Does anyone else know? Thank you! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Mar 29 10:15:09 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tefillah When Davening Alone Message-ID: Click here to download "Tefillah When Davening Alone" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 30 08:17:44 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:17:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato Message-ID: Please see https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:04 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Announcing Geshem Message-ID: . In Dec 2011, in the thread "Announcing Tal Umatar", I asked why halacha demands such critical announcements for starting and stopping the prayer for Geshem, yet no formal announcements at all for starting and stopping Tal Umatar. I got no response at all. I asked the same question again in Oct 2015, in the thread "Announcing Geshem". This time I did get one response, from R' Micha Berger, who wrote: > Well, it does make sense to me that baqashos have a level of > personalization that we do not find in shevach. I can insert > whatever baqashos I want to add for birkhas hashanim, so things > are more fluid there. > > My question is more your first one -- why must shevach be communal? > Not making up your own adjectives for G-d, I understand; but even > if I were to switch without everyone in the qehillah doing so yet > (because of the lack of announcement), I wouldn't be doing that... His answer seems very similar to what I found in a teshuva from Rav Hershel Schachter, https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950285/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-9-hallel-on-pesach-night-and-tefillas-tal/ released just yesterday, on how we should handle the switchover this coming Pesach, when most of us will have no effective tzibur for the announcement. The brackets are mine, parentheses are Rav Schachter's. > There is a big difference between She'eila (V'sen Tal Umatar > Livracha) and Hazkara (Mashiv Haruach). See what I wrote in > the name of our Rav [Soloveitchik] in MiPeninei HaRav (section > Tefila, number 5), that changing the descriptions of Hashem > (from Mashiv Haruach to Morid Hatal) requires Reshus Hatzibur, > and an individual is not allowed to make changes on his own. So to answer *my* question, Tefilas Geshem and Tefilas Tal are not informational. They don't simply inform us about the change, they *authorize* the change. And that authorization is not needed in Barech Aleinu. And to answer RMB's question, I'd suggest learning that section of MiPeninei HaRav. (Rav Schachter did give his views there about what we should do in our private Musafs this coming yom tov, but I need to learn it a few more times, and understand it better, before I comment on it.) Akiva Miller Stay Home - Save Lives . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:20:34 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] roll your own Message-ID: An oleh one Thursday (hopefully we will be back in shul soon) morning insisted on reading his own aliyah. I was surprised that the gabbai/Rabbi did not waive him off (given the reason individual olim stopped reading was so as not to embarrass others). Is this at all common? KT and Be Well Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:21:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ukimtas Message-ID: When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara(e.g. the gemara really was dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 2 13:37:43 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: >From today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? A. The Steipler Gaon (Orchos Rabbeinu 2:57) writes that one who studies Gemara or any other subject cannot make a siyum unless one understood the subject matter. The learning need not be with great depth. It is enough that one learns the p?shat (simple understanding). Many poskim hold that this is true even if one did not study the Gemara with Rashi or any other commentary. Sefer Ohr L?Tzion (3:12, ha?arah 1) writes that even if one might have missed a few lines here or there, they can still make a siyum. Similarly, he writes that although when one learns Torah one must vocalize every word (or listen to each word from a chavrusa), but if one occasionally learned by reading the words in one?s mind, one may still make a siyum. One can make a siyum even if one learns a short Masechta such as Tamid or Horiyos, and even if it was studied out of order. Rav Elyashiv, zt?l (Doleh Umashkeh, p. 318:3) held that one person must learn the entire Masechta and it cannot be divided up among a group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sat Jan 4 18:20:44 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: That?s a question which I have always wondered about. The way I see it is the same as taking a test and either passing or failing. If you and I take a test and you get 100 and I get a 60 (assuming that is the passing grade), then I have at least passed. Therefore, I see the same as learning. We both can have learned B?rochos and you know it by heart with all of the m?forshim, and I have learned it enough to get a passing grade so therefore I feel I would have the right to make a siyyum. However, I would look upon your siyyum as more noteworthy (however you wish to interpret that). From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 5 10:41:22 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: <0A849E37-7BD7-45AA-9C73-83FC0FE25429@cox.net> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry is Scripture's way of conveying the conviction that the formative age in Israel's history was not a series of haphazard incidents but the fulfillment of God's grand design??" Avraham lived for 175 years Yitzchok for 180 years Ya'akov for 147years. These numbers form an ordered and symmet- rical series: 7 x 5 squared = 175 (Abraham) 5 x 6 squared = 180 (Isaac) 3 x 7 squared = 147 (Jacob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Tue Jan 7 06:53:14 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:53:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] downloads available.. Message-ID: <134f01d5c56a$313b9010$93b2b030$@touchlogic.com> A coffee drinker's guide to Shabbos micro ground coffee / drip coffee / French press / using timer OUD creamer. do you have to wait 6 hrs till using.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/62kukx9q3ybjs4f/A%20coffee%20drinker%27s%20guide%2 0to%20Shabbos.docx?dl=0 2500 quick English psakim from R Shlomo Miller shlita https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 7 14:12:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? Message-ID: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> From a post: On the one hand, a frustrating element of arbitrariness surrounds umbrella use on Shabbos. Why do we act strictly on this issue, which is hotly debated among authorities, while acting leniently on other disputed issues? God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident. On the other hand, like an individual, a community is defined in part by its past. We cannot change how we got to where we are, our communal evolution through history. As halakhah evolves--within boundaries, of course--we cannot turn back the clock without destabilizing the system. Me: ?God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident.? I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening in ch?ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation) ? Your thoughts? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 04:12:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> Message-ID: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 10:12:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > "God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical > accident." I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories > told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening > in ch"ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at > least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation)? Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a factor in choosing which. After all, we allow for G-d's Will including 49 ways letamei and 49 ways letaheir, and letting humans decide which way of approaching the Truth is necessary for the situation we're in. What I am proposing is more limited than Historical School. With no parallel to some travesty like assigning personal or political motives to a ruling. I am saying that the strengths and weaknesses of how the masses are relating to halakhah itself are historical realities halakhah must account for. Also, to be complete although the issue isn't pragmatic any more -- gezeiros. If you do not believe that Chazal saw where practice *happened to* need shoring up at their moment in time, the decision to make a gezeira to avoid one risk and not a different one seems kind of arbitary at times. I have to believe they were responding to which mistakes were actually being made, or at least mistaken attitudes gaining currnecy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:03:38 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200108200338.GA3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 7:12am EST I replied to RJR: > Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu > va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a > factor in choosing which. This reminds me of another question RJR (was it RJR or is my memory playing tricks?) asked years ago about Goedel's Theorem. Halakhah is immune from Goedel's Theorem: Halakhah on the Divrei Elokim Chaim / dialectic level allows for Eilu veEilu. THere is no Law of Contradiciton, A and not-A can both be Torah, so Goedel's proof fails. Halakhah lemaaseh is not a closed formal system, because -- as I am arguing in this thread -- history matters. It's not a clean room exercise detatched from the realia the poseiq and sho'el/alim are living in. More info from the outside can influence the answer. It's not the kind of system math is, so Goedel's proof fails here too. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:10:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200108201057.GB3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 07:14:21AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: >> We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them >> as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, >> it should be done by example. > Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" > (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish > human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner > consistent with the will of HKB"H... In R' Wolbe's essay titled "Frumkeit" (Alei Shur vol II, available at ), he quotes the Alter of Slabodka as saying "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." The frum person is the one who makes sure to have Shabbos guests each week, but whose guests end up feeling much like his tefillin -- an object with which he did a mitzvah. A person acting out of frumkeit doesn't love to love, he loves in order to be a holier person. And ironically, he thereby fails -- because he never develops that Image of the Holy One he was created to become. The person who acts from self-interest, even from the interest of ascending closer to G-d, will not reach Him. (Taken from my blog post at .) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Thus excellence is not an event, Author: Widen Your Tent but a habit. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aristotle From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 9 11:45:06 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 19:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? Message-ID: >From today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? A. If a person owns their home, they are obligated to put mezuzos on the door as soon as they occupy the home (see Gilyon Maharsha YD 286:22). At what point is one considered an occupant? If one moves furniture and other belongings into a home, but has not actually started living in the house, there is a dispute between the poskim whether a mezuzah is required. The Chovas Hadar (13, footnote 10) assumes there is an obligation, while Rabbi Aharon Felder, in Oholei Yeshurun (page 6, fn 69) quotes other poskim who say the mitzvah begins only when one resides in the home. Shulchan Aruch (YD 236:22) rules that if one rents a house or apartment in the Diaspora, the requirement to put up mezuzos begins after 30 days have elapsed ? on the 31st day (the day of the move counts as day one, even if it is only a partial day.) The Derech Chaim disagrees and maintains that if the lease is for more than 30 days, the obligation to post mezuzos begins immediately. Though most poskim agree with the Shulchan Aruch that there is no obligation to post a mezuzah within 30 days under all circumstances, nonetheless the Magen Avrohom suggests that it is permissible to put a mezuzah on the wall during the first thirty days and recite a bracha. By doing so, the opinion of the Derech Chaim will be covered. The Nachalas Tzvi (286:22) objects to the suggestion of the Magen Avrohom and maintains that the bracha cannot be recited before the mitzvah is obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein (YD 1:179) offers a solution that covers all bases. He recommends putting up the mezuzos (to satisfy the opinion of the Derech Chaim) without a bracha (in deference to the Nachalas Tzvi). After 30 days the mezuzos should be removed, or at least slightly pushed, and then a bracha is required. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 10 06:22:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Askara In-Reply-To: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> References: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200110142208.GA29555@aishdas.org> Talmudology is a blog by R Jeremy Brown on science and gemara, following the daf yomi. (His wife is the known author on Torah topics, Dr Erica Brown.) In this installment, for Berakhos 8a (tomorrow's daf) http://www.talmudology.com/jeremybrownmdgmailcom/2020/1/8/berachot-8a-what-is-askera-and-why-does-it-kill-you or http://bit.ly/36EBBHy RJB rules out the usual translation of "askara" as "croup", since even in their day it wasn't likely to be fatal. Instead, he finds that diphtheria, epiglottitis and quincy fit the gemara's description and suggests it was one of those. Adding another suggestion we're discussed here during the omer in years past: R Sheira Gaon (She'iltos 1:1) says "askara" refers to the sicarii, literally: daggers, but the name was given to the dagger-bearing class of Roman soldiers. His context is the death of R' Aqiva's students by askara; he says they died at the Romans' hands. But, to quote Koren's translation of the gemara, minus the word "croup": [Askara] is like a thorn entangled in a wool fleece, which, when pulled out backwards, tears the wool. Some say that [askara] is like ropes at the entrance to the esophagus, which would be nearly impossible to insert and excruciating to remove. I cannot believe R' Sherira Gaon didn't have an answer for the description in this gemara. Maybe askara is an actual illness that in that one story was being used euphemistically? Or maybe the Romans took to shechting or garroting their victims, r"l? :-)BBii! -Micha PS: Below is a very helpful signature quote, for those of us who spend a lot of time "talking" about things online. -- Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every http://www.aishdas.org/asp argument and to always be right. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Nassan of Breslav - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Likutei Tefilos 94:964 From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 05:52:08 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: > Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." < One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 14 08:32:32 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Adopting Outside the Community Message-ID: <20200114163231.GA17990@aishdas.org> In , or https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/politics-current-affairs/2020/01/why-orthodox-jews-have-been-hesitant-to-adopt-outside-their-community-and-why-they-shouldnt-be/ Malka Groden ("a domestic-adoption advocate in the American Jewish community") writes and article titled: Why Orthodox Jews Have Been Hesitant to Adopt Outside Their Community, and Why They Shouldn't Be I am posting to Avodah because I am including her summaries of points made by RMMS (about the duty to raise nitzotzos, including those in non-Jews) and by RYBS (from Family Redeemed about natural vs covenantal parenthood). And afterwood, the thoughts I had on the subject of adopting non-Jews, developing since the days when we did. ... There is, however, one group of American Jews who are indeed marrying young, having children, and building families deeply connected to Jewish communal infrastructure through synagogues, schools, and a broad range of support organizations. That group comprises both the Charedim and the [M]odern Orthodox... In recent decades, indeed, the Orthodox world has become adept at devising arrangements in support of individuals and families going through life's most significant challenges: medical crises, infertility, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, and more. The organization In Shifra's Arms, for example, supports, emotionally, practically, and financially, Jewish women facing unplanned pregnancies; for another example, the Jewish Children's Adoption Network has placed thousands of Jewish babies with special needs in Jewish homes nationwide. But there's the rub: float within Orthodox precincts any suggestion of becoming involved with the issue of foster care and adoption in the larger society, and the initial response will likely be, "But those children aren't Jewish. Why is this a Jewish cause?" ... [The Lubavitcher] Rebbe taught that Jews are tasked with revealing not only their own "divine spark" but also the divine spark that resides within each human being, Jew and non-Jew alike. Thus, among Chabad's initiatives was a campaign to include, at the start of each day in the nation's public schools, a moment of silence during which all children would have an opportunity to contemplate their own purpose and responsibilities. Similarly, the Rebbe pushed for criminal-justice reform--stressing that those incarcerated must be given the chance for rehabilitation so that they too can return to their God-given mission in life--at a time when this issue did not command the broad consensus it enjoys today. Both of these projects, geared simultaneously toward Jews and the broader community, reflected the Rebbe's firmly activist view of the essential worth of each human being. With a proper moral foundation and education, he held, every individual, however highly or humbly situated, has the potential to grow and reveal his or her own divine spark. It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home. Meanwhile, Rabbi Soloveitchik, coming at the issue from his own direction, devoted an entire volume of essays, Family Redeemed, to the theme of family relationships. In one of these essays, he describes two forms of parenthood. The first form, "natural parenthood," is represented by Adam and Eve. The motherhood of Eve is instinctual and all-consuming; her entire being is involved, through the nine months of pregnancy and onward through the physical and biological demands of childbirth and child rearing. For Adam, by contrast, fathering a child makes no biological claims at all; after the child's birth, he is free to act exactly as he did before. With Abraham and Sarah, a new form--"covenantal" or "redeemed" parenthood--is revealed. For the first time, fatherhood demands something of men: Abraham must serve as an educator, molding his children and the next generation. In this mission, Sarah, the redeemed mother, joins him as partner and essential link in the transmission of the covenant. Separate from the biological demands made on her as a mother, motherhood takes on a larger ethical meaning to which she in turn makes a free commitment. At the start of the Jewish people's history, God confers on the first foremother and forefather the chance to move beyond the innate ties of biology and assume a trans-generational mission. ... By learning from the remarkable work done by American Christians, and by actualizing the core Jewish mission through the redemptive power of the Jewish family, American Jews can begin to help bring healing to a generation of children wounded and forgotten. I am not a huge fan of focusing on the need for homes as a motive for adoption. I am afraid of too many children being taken on as chessed projects rather than letting a normal parent-child relationship develop. But let me focus on Avodah material. If someone wants to adopt in order to continue their mimetic line, (along with the joys and the aggravations of parenting -- kind of like gilu bir'adah) the halakhos are simpler and cleaner when adopting a non-Jewish child. The giyur will be al daas beis din, and the parents are apitrupusei beis din. There is actually a halachically recognized tie between parents and adopted child, and the chinukh you provide is a chiyuv. (Not the chiyuv of "veshinantam levanekha", but still, a chiyuv.) That said, I still think aniyei irekha qodmin -- as long as there are Jewish children to be found, in today's climate of Open Adoption the halachic issues are generally resolvable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair: http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while, Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:32:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) Message-ID: My comment on a hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) shiur: imho an example of trying to codify something that is primarily mimetic. 100 shiurim can't take the place of role models who demonstrate how to know when it will be accepted and how time and place define when to dig in your heels on what issues. Also how you evaluate the impact on the individual vs. the community. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:35:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:35:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hedgehog? Message-ID: On R' Gil Perl's hedgehog piece https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ : I would agree that if MO's goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys' rabbeim's question as to why I just didn't put on a black hat ,is that I just don't think it's what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 20th century) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t613k at aol.com Tue Jan 14 22:42:12 2020 From: t613k at aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> In Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1 dated 1/4/2020? >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinksthat the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... <>>> This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against Orthodox Jews for 200 years.? But this accusation is simply not true.? We Orthodox Jews should not internalize the false image that our enemies have of us.? This belief that our enemies are right about us reflects a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.? Since we are all human beings, of course we all have our faults.? But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <>? In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim? --Toby Katzt613k at aol.com ============= ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 15 05:39:53 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <> --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com I would simply say community should be judged by the following ???- Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying.-Ralph Waldo Emerson Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 06:23:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] =?iso-8859-1?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Adam=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200115142357.GA30570@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 06:42:12AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote: >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, >> thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... > > This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against > Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against > Orthodox Jews for 200 years... And the Semag made against us 700 yearts ago, in asei #74. In explaining why, lemaaseh, one does have to return an aveidas aku"m, he writes , tr. mine so see it in the original at the link: I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain and the rest of Goliyos Edom that now that the exile has gone on far too long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of the world and grab onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not commit sin, do not speak lies, and one won't find a false tongue in their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them, the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People] for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesn't plant a kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One, blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves with trickery, who will attach to them? And R Breuer, 69 years ago, wrote "`Glatt Kosher -- Glatt Yoshor" because he felt a need to remind people that the latter is more important than the former (translation via RYL). To give just the closing: We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for "Glatt Kosher" with an equally intensive one for "Glatt Yoshor." This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13): "The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." As for the wonderful things our community does, a couple of theories: While my negative stereotype is truer than RnTK will admit to herself, it is still just a generalization. The number of people running and participating in those gema"chs, bikur cholim, the chevrah.... they don't total anywhere near half of us. Second, there is just being a religious community. Compare ourselves to another Middle or Upper-Middle class religious community. Look at chessed among actual aku"m like the Mormons. And yet we have the Emes! And we have a system that shapes our lives to inclucate that Emes, from what we eat to how we put on our shoes! Third, bein adam lachaveiro also has a BALM aspect, and we do see signs that it is that aspect that drives much of the chessed. Like the numerous articles by BT, singles, people who rely on Shabbos hospitality, who so often leave feeling like they served as an esrog, a cheftza shel mitzvah. The Alter of Slabodka says something related, about the lishmah of BALC (found quoted in Alei Shur vol II, tr. mine): "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning, http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to Author: Widen Your Tent mend." - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Jan 15 05:56:18 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira Message-ID: <006801d5cbab$90687a70$b1396f50$@touchlogic.com> https://lehavin.org/ At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both topics and keyword searches From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Jan 15 11:27:46 2020 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: <6757A82F-25CA-46D9-A1F0-1C001AA62A5B@tenzerlunin.com> I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh, brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore BALC in the face of BALM. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:56 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: R'n TK writes: "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?" R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Indeed, there is the rub. We learn one thing, but how much do we practice? Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters. An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring home to the shabbos table, and what-not. It was a terrific program. (I have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome -- see https://projectderech.org/). My kids, B"H, are still positively effected by that program. I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15 years ago or so (IIRC) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:55:44 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha Message-ID: R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted? But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha will NOT be accepted? Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until that standard is met the duty remains. We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands of sheep, stole this one sheep etc. The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous. In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even though they did not seek his forgiveness? as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct. Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all circumstances to be a Chassid? Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch. One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national history. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 19:00:45 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are > shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many > questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon > harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? Other illustrations: 1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha. And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff. This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus. 3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by self-identifying as "frum". Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And which one isn't given kibudim in shul? 3- Newspaper headlines. Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that impression, although most boys do. And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust. So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know I was the exception. 4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there. And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro. Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are middos seen as an end in themselves? 5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!" That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut the line in and of itself, doesn't work. And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe http://www.aishdas.org/asp you can be certain of improving, Author: Widen Your Tent and that's your own self. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aldous Huxley From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 18:40:35 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tochachah until when? Message-ID: <20200116024035.GA7698@aishdas.org> So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6) who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9 . I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else. So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo? How do these two issues shtim together? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 17 09:42:58 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro In-Reply-To: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> References: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200117174258.GA9251@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: >> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are >> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many >> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon >> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? > Other illustrations: Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was triggered. The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael". There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos) which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment): Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t) See a daf image at https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_36079_73.pdf or http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2864&size=2 It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions, nor even Sefaria (see "No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")! :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 18 16:53:29 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo Message-ID: <20200119005329.GA12632@aishdas.org> Times of Israel or https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-at-shiloh-archaeologist-finds-artifacts-hinting-at-biblical-tabernacle/ As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including in full): Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh Jan. 17 2020 According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio, 33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.) https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/742731340&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true -micha From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 19 12:53:49 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question Message-ID: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 19 08:26:56 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? Message-ID: Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father, and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says -- that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These [...] From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 19 22:20:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? _______________________________________________ IMHO 1. Make sure the ba'al kore gets proper medical treatment 2. clean up any mess 3. if the ba'al kore can't continue, get a substitute Now if the oleh is the one bleeding, it's probably a bigger issue. See S"A O"C 140 KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Jan 20 04:48:53 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200120124853.GB13148@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 03:53:49PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > A colleague asked me the following question and I had > no answer. > If the ba'al kore is reading the Torah and either has a > nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer > to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? RJR focused on the leining. But I saw the question as being more about the kashrus of the Torah with the blood on it. Ink spills, which are actually black, do not invalidate a sefer Torah -- as long as the letters remain intact. Now that I think of it, although I do not remember this case in the AhS -- maybe also as long as the ink itself doesn't look like an inserted letter? Blood that is red or brown could invalidate a letter too. Or so I am deducing from the case of black letters that had gold painted on top of them (eg in an attempt to glorify Hashem's name) -- the gold has to be removed. So it seems you have to see the black ink. But I do not think any of my speculation about added letters would apply. And in any case, it should be cleaned up simply out of respect for the Torah. ---- I also had thoughts about tum'ah. And so I wrote the below. But I don't think the blood in either scenario (nose bleed or paper cut) is tamei even to begin with. Struck me after I wrote it, in comparison to dam niddah. Still, I invested time, and there are things in it that might inform, so I didn't delete. There is a derabbanan to treat a seifer Torah as if it were tamei. This was to prevent a practice that became commonplace, that of storing all the holy things together. But rodents would come to eat the terumah, and naw on any scrolls nearby. But once they told the masses that the seifer Torah is not only tamei, but can be metamai one's hands too much for handling terumah, that ended. However, a seifer Torah cannot really become tamei. All of this is about treating it as though tamei. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, http://www.aishdas.org/asp if only because it offers us the opportunity of Author: Widen Your Tent self-fulfilling prophecy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Arthur C. Clarke From rabbiknopf at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:12:57 2020 From: rabbiknopf at yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> I've read this recent discussion with great interest. Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious community. I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's?What You Don?t Know About the Ultra-Orthodox - Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other articles:?Values and Religiosity?and?Charitable Giving Among Britain's Jews. And see also this page from?The Jewish Mind. With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a genuine problem (and therefore a challenge). I think it is true that fewer sheilos are asked in bein adam lechavero. I agree that both the occurrence and the communal reaction to scandals in bein adam lechavero are telling and disconcerting.? As Rabbi Berger acknowledges, there are different approaches within our mesorah in understanding the place of bein adam lechavero. Which ever approach one takes, there is room for much more serious thought as to how to reduce the gap between values and communal practice. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:09 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:13:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority Message-ID: A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a)remains silent or (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth 1. What percentage of people would take each course? (orthodox vs. non? 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:48:14 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero In-Reply-To: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200128214814.GD29555@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote: > Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the > frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't > simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious > community. > > I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About > the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other > articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's > Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind. > > With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a > genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)... I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest. What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox is at or https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/what-you-dont-know-about-the-ultra-orthodox/ From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:45:28 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128214528.GC29555@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until > that standard is met the duty remains. > > We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to > many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's > the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds > are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts > to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to > succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which > Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal). So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without the help of finding sources. The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the pasuq: Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha velo savo alav cheit. (The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for how you perceive what they did to you.) However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So, the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them into meizidim means you can't do it. But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how. That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty, even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or someone who hears the story will be influenced. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 14:20:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder) only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so we're talking about 1.8 oz. The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk. HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so. Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot. Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with te'imah. Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which "fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is. The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:35:55 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128213555.GA29555@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote: >> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." > One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and > loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. To me shilush refers to the human condition. When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face. Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.) The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3. Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz. Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give. The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others. The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above. Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:53:07 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128215307.GE29555@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony > that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or > (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth ... > 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif they did, the testimony is void? Li nir'eh: We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma. And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 29 11:53:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> References: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200129195327.GD10165@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com When we discussed this topic a decade ago (10-Oct-2009), R/Dr Prof Levine pointed us to a copy he kept of an article by R/Dr Ari Zivotofsky at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf Tir'u baTov! -Micha From sholom at aishdas.org Sun Feb 2 11:43:54 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Which parsha...? Message-ID: <1580762914542.2f7d92c33c16fe9c@aishdas.org> Someone in shul mused to me that parshas Ve'eria sure had a whole lot of mentions of H's name, and was wondering if that parsha had more mentions than any other parsha. I told him: I don't know, but I have some ideas on who/where to ask! Thoughts? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 4 19:14:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 03:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? Message-ID: In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 5 08:04:04 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ce3160-8d3b-c3a9-9e5d-e781c8bd03c7@sero.name> On 4/2/20 10:14 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R?Gil Student wrote about R?C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? According to the Rosh, at least, the minhag of most (nowadays all) Chu"l communities saying tal umatar as if they were in Iraq is mistaken, and he tried his best to change it in Spain, but faced such massive opposition that he gave up and accepted the status quo. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 5 09:57:59 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE Message-ID: This morning while shopping I noted that many types of Arnold's bread now bear on OU DE instead of OU Pareve. The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Q. Is one permitted to bake DE (Dairy Equipment) bread? For example, may one bake bread on a baking pan that was previously used to bake cheese danishes? A. (The OU recently focused on this issue, as a major bread manufacturer certified by the OU requested authorization to produce OU-DE certified bread. Click here to read Rabbi Genack?s extensive teshuva on this topic.) The Pischei Teshuva (YD 97:5) rules that bread baked on dairy equipment may be consumed. He reasons that as follows: Chazal (Pesachim 46a) forbade eating dairy bread as a gezaira (a prohibitive measure), lest one forgets the dairy status of the bread and consumes it with meat. This concern is valid when the bread contains actual dairy ingredients. However, when the bread is baked on dairy equipment, the bread is technically pareve according to the Rama, but as a chumra (an extra stringency), the bread may not be eaten with meat. Bidi?eved (after the fact), the Rama agrees that DE bread mixed with meat may be consumed. The possibility that one might not remember the status of DE bread is much less of a concern than for bread that contains actual dairy, and therefore there is no restriction on consuming DE bread. This reasoning is valid according to the Rama (95:2) who allows DE items mixed with meat bidi?eved. However, the Shach (quoted in a previous Halacha Yomis) rules that pareve items baked or roasted on dairy equipment are fully dairy and may not be consumed with meat even bidi?eved. Accordingly, the Shach would forbid all consumption of DE bread. As previously noted, many poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan (95:12), are not in agreement with the Shach. We will now address the second question about bread baked on a cheese danish pan. Are pans used to bake cheese danish treated as dairy? Interestingly, this depends on how the danish was prepared. If the cheese remained inside the dough, the pan would not have the status of actual dairy, and bread baked on the pan can be eaten with pareve or dairy foods. However, if the cheese leaked out of the danish onto the pan, the Shach would consider the pan to be actual dairy even bidi?eved, and bread baked subsequently would be forbidden. ___________________________________________ Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:41:50 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim Message-ID: Questions from (another) guy in my shul: On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is trying to annul or alleviate. (And either the P"Y, or R Rosner, suggest that perhaps this is why when a crisis is facing the community, we engage in tefilla and/or recitation of tehillim). (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the chiddush in that? Do I need R Eazar to tell me that? Or, perhaps R Elazar is saying: you can do all the ma'asim tovim you want, but without tefilla, it's not going to help? But I digress....) That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. Is there any intersection of thought -- is there any influence or stira -- of R Elazar's statements to this order of words? And why does R Elazar seemingly ignore teshuva? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:43:55 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good place to ask ;-) Thoughts, anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 5 18:59:15 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 02:59:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E809B88-1E18-4EBE-84F2-BA7F5BC94544@Segalco.com> Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. -/?????????? Some context is important. As I understand it for many years the OU Used the DE designation and then changed policy because they thought it was too confusing. This led to a time Where they fielded many questions (maybe unofficially? )about what the D really meant and many people used products as if they were DE. Now apparently they?ve gone back to issuing the DE. I think a consumer awareness campaign would be worthwhile I personally prefer having the DE designation available so that people don?t just decide on their own based on the ingredients. Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:08:01 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206200801.GA20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:43:55AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for > us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did > H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good > place to ask ;-) Well, if you don't take Bereishis 1 as history, or you believe in Omphalism ("the universe was created old, as though it all happened" -- RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements. The universe's size also is an effect of the kind of Inflation and Big Bang we had, or H' made a universe as thought we had. The same thing that set up many other things in physics, and is subject to our laws of physics. Which in turn would mean that to have the physics we do, we would need a universe of a certain size. (Or a universe that was obviously created in a "puff" of neis.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:24:09 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206202409.GB20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:41:50AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, > and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's > talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers > that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is > trying to annul or alleviate... Which fits the context; the gemara is talking about Moshe davening to come to EY. > (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with > tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the > chiddush in that? ... So the Penei Yeoshua tell you to look in the Maharsha and the Mahari Pinto, who ask just your question -- of course T + MT > T. And also, why go to Moshe who excelled at everything, not the clearest maqor for this kind of comparison. The PY only gives his own answer -- obviously the sekhar of MT is greater, as they involve many mitzvos. Even if tefillah is deOraisa, which he notes is unclear. Rather, it is specifically WRT getting out of a gezeira ra'ah. Barukh shekivanta! My reaction: We're talking about Moshe level davening, and it's still not enough without maasim tovim?! The Ben Yehoyada (ad loc) says that the intent is Avos 5:21, "kol hamzakeh es harabim, tekhus harabim talui bo". So the gemara is saying that the tefillah of someone with maasim tovim is greater than the maasim tovim in and of their own zekhuyos. > That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana > Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. And the next line in the gemara is R Elazar saying that taanis is greater than tzedaqah -- because it is done with his body, and tzedaqah is done with his money. Remember the Machzorim that have the words tzom, qol, mamon over teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, and they're all there. Tzom is a maaseh associated with teshuvah. BUT... The next line after that, also R Elazar, says that tefillah is greater that qorbanos. If the gemara were working with teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, this quote wouldn't be here, it breaks the symbolism. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:33:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206203333.GC20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 03:14:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue > I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue > since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were > all holy) There are at least two ways you can ascribe importance to mimetic precedent, whether minhag or accepted pesaq, or any other of the looser usages of the word "minhag": 1- "Im lo neviim heim benei neviim heim" or "she'reis Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" mean that there is siyata diShmaya involved in what Jews end up doing. And thus Retzon haBorei blesses such practices. (In some way that doesn't violate lo bashamayim hi. Just as a poseiq's siyata diShmaya doesn't.) 2- The lack of rabbinic objection shows that generations of rabbanim found textual support for the practice. Which would rule out practices where we have a record of rabbinic protests. I brought up #2 in the early days of Avodah, when R/Dr Meir Shinnar used a mimetic argument to prove that sei'ar be'ishah ervah is das Yehudis and changes with the fashion. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I want to do it." - is weak. Author: Widen Your Tent "I am doing it." - that is the right way. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 05:00:41 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] New Haggada Available Message-ID: A new edition is now available of my "Achieving Immortality - A Haggada for Re-Experiencing the Exodus". My main goal in this Haggada is to avoid anything that would distract us from "seeing ourselves as if we left Egypt ourselves." For example, the peirushim are incorporated into the translation and instructions, rather than being relegated to the bottom of the page. Extensive footnotes for supplementary material are accessible on the bottom of each page, but for the seder itself they are in the back of the book, to be less distracting. It is available online at Lulu.com, where anyone can find it by searching for the title and/or my name. It is available in three bindings: hardcover, paperback, and a coil-bound version (which is my family's favorite because it lies flat with no effort, so yet another distraction is avoided). All three have the exact same 200-page interior. SPECIAL HALF-PRICE pricing for Avodah readers is available if you use these links: Softcover $5.97 at https://tinyurl.com/SoftcoverHaggada Coilbound $7.47 at https://tinyurl.com/CoilboundHaggada Hardcover $12.97 at https://tinyurl.com/HardcoverHaggada (plus tax and shipping, obviously) You can often get it even cheaper! Lulu often (but usually only from Monday to Thursday) offers coupon codes that you can use when you check out and pay. You can go to Lulu.com and look for the popup notice, or you can try the frequently-offered codes LULU10 (for 10% off) or ONEFIVE (for 15% off). If you'd like to see a sample of this Haggada, to better judge how much my style fits yours, you can download a 25-page sample at https://www.dropbox.com/s/eizebhfa5qtfpwo/Haggada%202020%20Excerpts.pdf?dl=0 or https://tinyurl.com/v27cwtt Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 17:41:39 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:41:39 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Joel Rich asked Message-ID: < BL0PR02MB37454F2E5D8D2B1D2559773EBF020 at BL0PR02MB3745.namprd02.prod.outlook.com > Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hankman at bell.net Thu Feb 6 21:01:17 2020 From: hankman at bell.net (hank) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 00:01:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: <20200207050117.JFSZ16482.mtlspm02.bell.net@[IPv6:::ffff:192.168.2.56]> RMB wrote: ?RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements.? That is plausible for stars within our galaxy, but not for the billions of stars in billions of galaxies far outside the milkyway galaxy. Those heavy elements could never reach us in this galaxy. Should we postulate intelligent beings in each of those distant galaxies with their own relationship to G-d for whom their stars supply heavy elements to? Kol tuv, Chaim Manaster Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Fri Feb 7 07:43:50 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/20 8:41 pm, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > > But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the > repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - > one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. 1. As I understand it he succeeded, within his area of influence, and chazarat hashatz disappeared for several centuries, until at least the Radvaz's times. (Though his takana was only for Shacharit/Musaf on Shabbat, and for Mincha only if it was getting late.) 2. More importantly it's not an example of this phenomenon because it was *not* an incorrect minhag. Not even the Rambam claimed it was incorrect. The Rambam simply thought a new problem had arisen, which required a new takanah invoking eit laasot to override this correct minhag. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From meirabi at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 17:37:26 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:37:26 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - Talking During Tefillah, That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Zev Message-ID: suggested that RaMBaM, at least within his area of influence, succeeded in cancelling the Chazoras HaShaTz, and we assume also thereby reduced the talking during Tefillah. However, during the Radvaz's times, Ch HaShaTz was reintroduced which only reinforces the notion that Mistaken Minhagim, even if they can be temporarily abated, cannot be stopped Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinlbrody at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 21:49:16 2020 From: martinlbrody at gmail.com (Martin Brody) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:49:16 -0800 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minchagim.... Message-ID: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Cheers, Martin Brody "Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazze Meir G. Rabi From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Tue Feb 11 01:17:50 2020 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:17:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 10, 2020 02:03:22 pm Message-ID: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Talking during prayer is not a minhag. It is a hanhagah (Hebrew, like every language, has nuanced near-synonyms in matters of importance to its speakers). Jews do not talk during prayer thinking "this is how Jews should conduct themselves", or even "this is how Jews conduct themselves", and those cognitions are part of the definition of the word "minhag". The original poster asked for mistaken minhagim, which originated in the hamon `am, and which were subsequently tolerated by the scholarly class. Talking during prayer is not a mistaken minhag, because it is not a minhag at all. A minhag that satisfies the original poster's question -- as has already been pointed out by another contributor to this mailing list -- is praying for rain, not when you need rain, but when the people of Iraq need rain. Other minhagim that satisfy the original poster's question are wearing costumes on Purim, or not cutting a boy's hair till he is three years old. And there are numerous other idolatrous practices and superstitions that are found among Jews, like tugging your ear after you sneeze, or not walking over a baby, and if you do walk over a baby, then walking backwards over the baby to undo the walking forwards. If you read classic Yiddish literature, you will learn many minhagim regarding sickness which clearly belong to the category of "halloxesh `al hammakkah" but which were nearly universal among the Jews depicted in that literature, and which are not condemned by the Yiddish-speaking scholarly class even now. The practice of not eating kitniyyoth (deliberately left untranslated) on Passover also originated in the hamon `am, and was later ratified, and even codified, by the scholarly class, but I would abolish it if I could, because, inter alia, it makes it more expensive to observe Passover, and God cares about the property of His people. There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An example of this category is the practice of earning a living from teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. An even more odious example is the practice of "kollel", which involves paying people, not even to teach Torah, but just to learn it. This is not only prohibited by Jewish law, but also condemned in the strongest terms; yet the scholarly class have taken a prohibition, and turned it into a commandment, because it benefits them. A third example is draft exemptions for yeshiva students, even though -- as has been pointed out before on this mailing list -- the halakha clearly states that "bmilxemeth mitzva hakkol yotz'im, afilu xathan mixedro vkhallah mixupathah". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:43:23 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minhagim Message-ID: R' Martin Brody wrote: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Rambam's rejection can be distinguished from what we do now. The Rambam also held that we never change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta?am tachton, and so it appears we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with ta?am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, in which case it?s perfectly fine to stand. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:45:42 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah Message-ID: The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he does so here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Feb 11 10:20:47 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58288555-F618-4C81-866B-E853B664DA8C@cox.net> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who consistently stood for the entire leining. I would assume that was their minhag. The other thing I learned that many of my peers did not know and that was the halacha regarding whether you stand for the sh?ma or sit. The answer is if you are already sitting, you remain seated and conversely, if you are already standing, you remain standing. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 11 14:34:55 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should they daven? what else should they do?)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 14 08:25:30 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:25:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I typically eat only cholov Yisrael products. Accidentally, I bought a cereal that is labeled OU-D. I checked with the OU?s Webbe Rebbe (Kosherq at OU.org) and was told the cereal does not contain actual dairy, but it is made on dairy equipment. I opened the box, and I can no longer return it to the store. May I eat the cereal? A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot must be kashered before it is re-used. Nonetheless, there are various positions among poskim regarding food that was cooked in cholov akum pots in our contemporary times. The issue revolves around the current status of commercial milk. It is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l and other contemporary poskim held that the prohibition of cholov akum does not apply to commercial milk which is regulated and monitored by government agencies. Others reject this leniency. Still a third group are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As such, there are the following positions: * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position on commercial milk would obviously have no problem cooking in pots used for cholov stam. (Cholov stam is milk that was not supervised by a mashgiach, but was produced in a dairy that is monitored for purity by government inspectors.) * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a chumrah (stringency). This position is further split into two camps with respect to cholov stam keilim : Some are stringent only regarding actual cholov stam, but are lenient with respect to cholov stam keilim. This was the position of Rav Henkin, zt?l (Teshuvos Ivra 43). Others maintained the same stringency applies to keilim as well. Rav Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan HaLevi 22:5) writes that this was the position of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt?l. Nonetheless, one can argue that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would allow using a cholov stam pot that may have been unused for 24 hours. The basis for this is the Shach (YD 119:20) who writes that if a person has a chumra that his neighbor does not observe, he may still eat food that was cooked in his neighbors pot, so long as the food was not cooked specifically for him (i.e., the food was also cooked for those who are not strict), and it is not known if the pot was used in the past 24 hours. A similar argument can be made to permit the cereal in our original question, since it was already purchased, and it is not known if the equipment was used for dairy in the past 24 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 07:30:09 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] HALF A SHEKEL IS BETTER THAN NONE Message-ID: <29FD8EA8-0052-4B93-ACD1-422064094773@cox.net> As you know, this Shabbos is Shabbos Shekalim as well as Shabbos M'vorchim. I'm reminded of the Hazzan who was chanting the Rosh Chodesh Bentching and was very careful not to repeat words. But he had to fit the melody to the prayer so he sang ".....chayim she parnoso, chayim shel shekalim....." At least the uninformed realized it was Shabbos Shekalim. The Mishna Meg. 3:4 explains in the days of the monarchy, the shekel tax had become a permanent institution, and its proceeds together with other freewill offerings were used to maintain and repair the Temple (ll Kings 12:15-17; 22:3-7). Since the shekel tax was due on the first of Nisan, the Rabbis ordained that this section (30:11-16) be read as an added Torah portion about a month before: on the Shabbos before the new moon of Adar or on Rosh Chodesh itself, if it fell on Shabbos. Because of this added reading the Sabbath has become known as Shabbos Shekalim. (There is also a talmudic treatise called Shekalim). L?havdil, as a side, Christian Scriptures, Matthew 17:27, notes that Peter paid the tax for both himself and his master. The Zionist movement at its first congress (1897) revived the shekel as a common expression of support for Eretz Yisroel. The number of shekel holders became an indication of the strength of political Zionism. There were 165,000 in 1907 and in 1946 there were 2,160,000. In Yalkut Me'am Lo'ez. Sh?mos, Vol.lll, pp. 1068-1069, the question is asked why the sum chosen for expiation was fixed at one-half shekel (30:15). The reason was because Joseph had been sold into Egypt by his brothers for twenty dinars, i.e. five shekels. There being ten brothers, this amounted to a profit of one-half shekel for each. Another explanation: It was expiation for the sin of the golden calf. (Though this sin is told later, in chapter 32, the comment is based on the talmudic principle of Ein mukdam um'uchar baTorah. This same issue is raised in Mishpatim because Ch.24 shifts from the laws, that have been the subject of the Sidrah, back to the Revelation at Sinai. There is a machlokes among the m'forshim regarding when the events in this chapter took place. According to Rashi, the events recorded in verses 1-11 occurred before the Ten Commandments were given. Ramban, Ibn ezra, Rashbam, among others, maintain that these events took place after Israel had received the Ten Commandments and Moses had taught them the laws of the previous 3 chapters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 12:52:19 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 15:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag Message-ID: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> I?m not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until ?Im kesef talve.? And the second week is the second half. I don?t know which haftarah they use for the second week. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 17 20:52:17 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag In-Reply-To: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> References: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200218045217.GA2684@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 03:52:19PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely > a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot > read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until "Im > kesef talve." And the second week is the second half. I don't know which > haftarah they use for the second week. I had always wondered why the standard chapterization of the Seifer haChinukh starts a new parashash there. I was wondering if this was an actual minhag, or just a way to split up the 52 mitzvos that are in Mishpatim to more managable chapters. Now I know! Thanks. The Chinukh was written by R Aharon haLeci in Barcelona in the 13th cent. Although the chapterization may be far later, so I don't know what that says about the scope and evolution of that minhag. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 18 13:51:24 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim Message-ID: Heard in a daf yomi shiur -- R Sholom Rosner was: -- critical of minhag of oleh to not say birkas hatorah on tochacha -- critical of the minhag that women don't make a mezumin when they are three on their own; or, if with 10 men, not answering the mizumin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:23:05 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:23:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:25:46 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers Message-ID: I spent some time looking for commentaries explaining the focus on the donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers. I realize it's probably projection but I came up with two possibilities. The first was that many places the donkey seems to be taking somebody to their destiny (Think avraham Moshe bilaam......)I was thinking when they might've been concerned that they would be unable to fulfill theirs My other thought was that they represented technological extensions Of human ability ( think vcivshuha) And they would be unable to fulfill their human capabilities and be no more than another animal Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at chamor and saw chomer(material world) Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 20 11:11:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200220191100.GA15866@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:23:05AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: > But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? In terms of the tech, we're not close yet, and may never be. To weave a derashah into my explanation of that sentence, the word "binah" can refer to thought in at least two ways: - from "bein", the art of making distinctions -- bein qodesh lekhol, bein or lechoshekh... Being able to characterize this as an A, that as a B, this is spam, this is not spam. And when things are not separated: this A and B share features that would allow them to belong to the same font, whereas that A & B are in another. Finding the limits of sets, to know what to separate. That's what AI is now doing. Using what boils down to a lot of linear algebra to draw lines between sets using known examples of what's in and what's out. That can be obvious in cases of AI reading CT or MRI scans. But that is also how automous vehicles decide when to change lanes, accelerate, or whatnot. There are two sets: a right time and a wrong time. - from "binyan", the art of combining facts. Whether making deductions of the sort you did formally in Geomatry class, or inductions -- figuring out that those sets even exist. There is AI that does binyan-binah. It is very simple, generally just searching the space of possibilities until it hits sueccess (as defined for it). That's not what ML is about, and it's not where we are close to the commercial application. And may never be. Then there is informal thought. Conclusions you can only reach because you not only have a concept of red in your head, but you know what it is like to see red. (Apologies to the color blind for that example.) In terms of hashkafah... I argued that lo bashamayim hee has more to do with whose hands halakhh is in than whose it isn't. A pesaq can only come from someone who (to jump ahead to the end of the statement) "befikha ublivavkha la'asoso". Related to that knowing what red is *like*, knowing what moral is *like* is arguably a fundamental element of what a poseiq brings to the question. And even if that argument fails hashkafically, halachically pro forma a poseiq must be a mentally competent Jewish male adult who you believed has the appropriate knowledge, ability and experience (experiential knowledge?). It's the difference between whether any error would be your aveira beshogeig or your doing the right thing in following a pesaq. (And the the case of a human poseiq, their shogeig.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything. http://www.aishdas.org/asp If you want time, you must make it. Author: Widen Your Tent - Charles Buxton - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From cantorwolberg at cox.net Fri Feb 21 05:54:14 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Purim Twist Message-ID: <810C4798-B74F-40A2-B8AA-1CF357667DF4@cox.net> 1) We're all familiar with the custom and law of making much noise when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the Megilla. The standard answer to why we do it is to drown out his name. I see another reason. We must make a lot of noise against EVIL. Haman, a descendant of Amalek, is evil personified. We cannot be silent in the face of evil. We must yell, shout, and make all the noise we can. (Does this sound timely)? 2) If we were asked the etymology of the word "Megilla," we would say it comes from the word galal, "to roll." The word gelila, "wrapping the Torah" also comes from the same root. I came across a nice midrashic twist. As we know the word "Esther" has as its root "samech, tof, reish" for hidden. Interestingly, Megilla has been explained to have the root giluy, which means "revealed." Hence, we have a major theme for the Megilla -- revealing that which is hidden. From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Feb 21 07:49:15 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: "Rich, Joel" wrote: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article (to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts. In it, he talks about future possibilities. https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/ (PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form already.) It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether the machine-made connections make sense or not. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 11:58:18 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: > There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon > `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned > by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An > example of this category is the practice of earning a living from > teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like the Rambam. There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo. (Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but the Bartenura disagrees apparently.) R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah to make your daily bread? Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original: Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for, and not the learning itself. Thinking out loud: The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod, that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution instead of just "don't take pay". But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that "most". On to a very different topic, same subject line... On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I recall in my youth that there were individuals who > consistently stood for the entire leining. I would > assume that was their minhag. My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian. Amu"sh.) My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk, not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam, and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing for the diberos: > he Rambam also held that we never > change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that > we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears > we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. > My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with > ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, > in which case it's perfectly fine to stand. Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for everything. Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos. Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean a- pesaqim specific to a community b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin c- ... anything else? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:45:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour to chatzos is only bedi'eved. So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:53:40 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224205340.GB9637@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at : chamor and saw chomer(material world) The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they are in charge of their chomer side. Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason" symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me, I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Feb 24 18:58:03 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:58:03 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? --------------------------- At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan KT Joel THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 25 09:00:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200225170034.GI27056@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved or hefsed situations. But I was confused about the first question: >> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, >> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven >> is at the beginning of that time range? On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening > with a minyan The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at haneitz. In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar. Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else is also yotzei. Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.) Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan. The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema (Rambam). Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 26 04:50:01 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply z'rizin makdimin. I'm even tempted to say that it has nothing to do with z'rizin makdimin, and the proof is that the same pasuk is used for two purposes: Shacharis at the very beginning of the day, and also Mincha at the very end. Mechaber 89:1 - "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." Brachos 29b - R' Yochanan said, "It's a mitzva to pray when the sun is red." R' Zeira said, "What's the pasuk? Yira'ucha im shamesh, v'lifnay yare'ach, dor dorim." (Tehillim 72:5) Brachos 29b Rashi - "Yira'ucha im shamesh" - This is Tefilas Yotzer. "V'lifnay yare'ach" - This is Tefilas Mincha. Shabbos 118b Rashi - "V'lifnay yare'ach" - Prior to the light of the moon, while the sun has not yet set. Brachos 29b Steinzaltz - "When the sun is red" - Tefilas Yotzer with Haneitz Hachama, and Tefilas Mincha with Shkias Hachama. Brachos 29b ArtScroll note 11 - These two times (just after sunrise and just prior to sunset) are the most propitious for reciting the morning and afternoon Prayers respectively. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva ( http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24777) which says: "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day to pray - "with sunrise." And optimal time for the Minchah prayer is at the end of the day, as the sun is setting - "before the moon." I believe that the above is true l'halacha, but in the l'maaseh there is a very big difference between Shacharis and Mincha, perhaps explained best by Gemara Brachos 29b, immediately after the line I quoted above. "In the west [Eretz Yisrael] they would curse someone who davens [Mincha] when the sun gets red. Why? Because he might miss the zman." In order words, there is no downside to saying Shacharis at the very earliest time, but there is a very great danger in delaying Mincha to the very latest time. I suspect that this is why discussions about the time for Mincha center on "How early CAN I daven", and not on "When is the BEST time to daven." Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 26 07:10:59 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200226151059.GE3829@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:50am EST, R Akiva Miller wrote: > R' Micha Berger wrote: >> So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. > The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply > z'rizin makdimin... Which is why my post continued. As I noted, the Rambam says it's the sole right time, and everything else is inferior. Why would he say that? Likely the pasuq the machaber quotes: > Mechaber 89:1 -- "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one > should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." And so, I concluded that the main reason is being chosheish for the Rambam's reasoning. But even if your confidence in halachic process is such that you don't need to go beyond the Tur's shitah and minhag yisrael, there is still zerizim maqdimin. But there is more! Because doing anything before minyan is lesse Majeste or borders on it. (Thus we don't eat before davening, uless needed for davening, we don't go in order to greet people...) So, there is more drive for "as early as possible" than most mitzvos. And I think that is why: > Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, > other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva > () which says: > "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day > to pray -- "with sunrise."... I have heard Breslover speakers argue similarly. Kevasiqin is for OT1H chassidim and other benei aliyah who want to follow the beautiful idea in the pasuq in Tehillim, and OTOH for Briskers and the sort who are regularly chosheshim for rejected shitos. But never caught on among those in the middle. (It is also more common among actual vasiqin, as waking up enough before haneitz to catch a minyan kevasiqin is frustratingly common among the more "ancient" among us. That's when my father amu"sh started.) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" -- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From eliturkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 14:17:58 2020 From: eliturkel at gmail.com (Eli Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 00:17:58 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus Message-ID: halkachic cautions in the face of coronavirus https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/02/precautions-in-shul-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus/ -- Eli Turkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 13:31:37 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> References: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200301213137.GA13398@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean > a- pesaqim specific to a community > b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin > c- ... anything else? RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis until marriage. Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes, it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's all post facto. And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost. So there is a (c) for my list c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic. Anyone have a suggestion for (d)? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 14:02:05 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following: > A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) > writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot > must be kashered before it is re-used... > are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but > nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As > such, there are the following positions: > * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be > halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as > non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. > * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient > position on commercial milk would... > * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position > in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a > chumrah... This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's, as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago). But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation. Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify. Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against adulterating his milk. Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS. Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly (YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews. Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all. So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or that of another CY eater.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift. http://www.aishdas.org/asp The purpose of life Author: Widen Your Tent is to give it away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Pablo Picasso From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 15:35:52 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly. For example, I recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold in NY as kosher was actually treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper kashrus standards.. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 15:58:22 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <07ea01d5f025$4c5d3250$e51796f0$@aishdas.org> From: Prof. Levine Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST > At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. > Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for > those who wanted to keep kosher properly... But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened? My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical, since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting pesaq halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Mar 1 20:11:23 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 04:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. -------------------------------------- And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 2 07:30:52 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > following the Peri Chadash against the CS. Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all he does is cite the Radvaz? > So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes > is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or > that of another CY eater.) Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was used with was non-CY milk. If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed up in good faith. But if you hold that it's actually kosher then there's no problem in the first place. And if you're kind of in the middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as snifim lehakel. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 2 13:01:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200302210134.GC3266@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. > Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all > he does is cite the Radvaz? I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse. -Micha From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:34:37 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mezuzah checked Message-ID: From the OU: Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done? A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years (i.e., every 3? years). ......... Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions of their rav when a question would be appropriate. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:57 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot Message-ID: From R'Rimon in Hamizrachi: "In light of the above (me - shtarei hedyotot et al) it would be best if there were no ads at all in our Parshat Hashavua sheets"..... "However it is very difficult to abide by these demands in our times because it's the ads that fund the publication"... "Still it would be worth having clear guidelines" This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." I'd really appreciate a better understanding of the halachic force of this consideration. Oh, and did the publishers of Hamizrachi appreciate the irony of this article appearing in their publication with advertisement which is distributed in many shuls on Shabbat? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 10:59:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self Message-ID: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Experiencing the tzelem Elokim as proof there is an Elokim? See https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/search-soul-john-cottingham-review or http://bit.ly/3czL1aK Snippets / teasers: New Statesman The paradox of an atheist soul Why the idea of a single self only makes sense in a theistic world. By John Gray There are many arguments for theism, most of them not worth rehearsing. ... A different and more interesting approach is to argue that theism is suggested by the fact that we experience ourselves as unified, conscious beings - in other words, as having a soul. Not necessarily an immaterial entity, the soul is the part of us that strives to realise what is best in our nature. We do not come to know the soul through any special revelation. We know it by considering the kind of creature we find ourselves to be - a thinking being inhabiting a life-world that seems to reflect a mind greater than our own. Once we realise we have a soul, theism becomes a credible way of thinking. Such is the approach adopted in this lucid and illuminating book by John Cottingham, professor of the philosophy of religion at University of Roehampton.... Cottingham presents a version of the transcendental argument deployed by the German Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804). A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, it asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are accepted as given. Kant used it to support his belief in a universal moral law and, at points in his writings, the existence of God. As used by Cottingham, its purpose is to refute the Scottish sceptic David Hume (1711-1776), whom Kant described as "having interrupted my dogmatic slumber". In A Treatise of Human Nature (1739), Hume had written that the self is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed one another with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement". If the self is not an autonomous entity but an assemblage of sensations Kant's theistic faith crumbles into dust. Cottingham spells out the connection between theism and the idea of the self: It is a fundamental theistic belief, following the words of Genesis, that human beings are made "in the image" of God; and this is taken to be especially true in virtue of our conscious minds, in virtue of our attributes of intellect and will. Theism thus posits a source of ground of all being that is somehow mind-like: consciousness is taken to be at the heart of reality. The theistic picture tends to be discarded or ignored by the majority of contemporary philosophers, but it seems perverse to dismiss it from consideration should it turn out to fit rather well with certain aspects of reality that cannot in integrity be denied... [such as] the irreducible reality of consciousness. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 11:15:13 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> In a recent post in Torah Musings , R Daniel Mann answers a question about a new practice some have regarding parashas Zakhor. Again, snippets: Question: My shul has always read Parashat Zachor once, with our regular havara (pronunciation). Some people now complain that we do not follow other shuls and read multiple times with different havarot to fulfill the mitzva according to more opinions and to do the mitzva properly for Sephardim. Should we change our minhag? First he brings arguments that one doesn't need correct havara to be yotzei. Whether because the deOraisa doesn't need to be in lashon haqodesh, or perhaps has no specific text, or RMF's (IM OC 3:5) proof from chalitza that havara is not meqev, or that an Ashkenzi who doesn't distinguish between alef and ayin may serve as chazan for Ashkenazim... The latter two arguments saying that "correct havarah" is societal. Still, one might need to have Parashas Zakhor available in many havaros if the community is of people of different eidos. At least as a chumerah. But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... Several (Teshuvot V'hanhagot ibid.; Halichot Shlomo ibid.; Aseh Lecha Rav VI:22) mention hearing of such a new practice and consider it strange. They reject it as being disrespectful to the tzibbur, to the rest of our lainings, and/or to past generations who did not do such things. I would not criticize a minyan that decides to do so anyway (some fine places do), and there are circumstances in which there is a stronger argument (e.g., there is no minyan in the area of other eidot), but it is wrong to criticize the normal minhag for not adopting this innovation. In the early days of the list, I was particularly prone to Brisker chumeros (trying to be yotzei as many shitos as possible) or to chumeros or pesaqim that allow expression of how I understood the mitzvah hashkafically. I think learning a cycle and a fraction of AhS Yomi has toned that down. At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of confidence in the halachic process. As for hashkafically motivated pesaq, that's still with me more. But I think I've gotten to an age where I finally understand the value of continuity as well. (I mentioned before, though, my mother's observation about the family she married in to. My grandfather got to the US too young to be aware of most of his minhagim and therefore ended up acting as per R/Dr Mirsky's shiurim. My father's decades of "the Rav's" (RYBS's) Tues night shiur, and repreatedly took on the implications of those shiurim. And then my own habits. Doing what fits what we learned in shiur last IS the onky continuity my family practice has.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Live as if you were living already for the http://www.aishdas.org/asp second time and as if you had acted the first Author: Widen Your Tent time as wrongly as you are about to act now! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 4 11:36:42 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36.2D.07714.B14006E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:25 PM 3/4/2020, R. Joel Rich wrote: >People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients >listed on the label. > >-------------------------------------- >And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" >KT >Joel Rich Since when to two wrongs make a right? Also one has to keep in mind that in many places everything was made from scratch. My mother-in-law comes from a small town in Hungary. There was essentially no prepared anything. Baking was done at home, meat and chickens were kashered at home, etc. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Mar 6 08:19:30 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: Good stuff from Rav Aviner: http://www.ravaviner.com/2020/03/hilchot-corona.html Some of the questions include: Q: Is one obligated to listen to the instructions of the Ministry of Health regarding Corona? Q: Does one fulfill the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim on the phone? Q: If a person is in quarantine for Corona, what does he do about Davening in a Minyan? Q: Should one refrain from kissing Mezuzot on account of Corona? Q: How could someone get sick with Corona while hearing the Megillah when the Gemara states, "Harm will not befall one on the way to perform a Mitzvah"? Q: What is Hashem trying to teach us with the Corona Virus in the world? and many more -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 17:58:20 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing > practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, > some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different minhagim? -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 18:25:10 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > accepted as given. One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is universal. "Kol echad be`atzmo shi`er", and assumed everyone else must be the same. If that assumption is not true, it can lead to utter confusion, as people debate at cross-purposes, each completely unable to understand the other's arguments. See, for an example, https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like? Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even existed. The debate was resolved by Francis Galton, a fascinating man who among other achievements invented eugenics, the "wisdom of crowds", and standard deviation. Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images. Dr. Berman dubbed this the Typical Mind Fallacy: the human tendency to believe that one's own mental structure can be generalized to apply to everyone else's. -- Zev Sero Have a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:23:48 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: > One should therefore refrain from touching or kissing Mezuzot. < My practice for some time has been to "point to" (essentially, reach towards but not touch) the m'zuzah as I pass (and when I leave my house, to say, "Baruch ata b'vo'echa, uvaruch ata b'tzeisecha"). However, having trouble getting used to a clenched-fist (and hate the dangerous elbow) greeting... :). --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:53:00 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. Very well phrased! I have often felt this way, but was unable to find the words to express it. Thank you. For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Mar 9 07:09:31 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. ----------------------------------- Or a lack of confidence in oneself (or their ability/worthiness to decide)? I often think of R? Schachter comparing the personalities of R? Chaim and the Netziv and wonder if this could be explained on that basis. Enough said? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 11 11:47:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:47:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] NYT Ethicist Message-ID: NYT Ethicist - What would halacha be? Q.I have been struck by a fatal disease, inherited from my father. I have children, who know they have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the disease from me. I have several siblings. One has children of her own. She has so far refused to be tested on the off chance that she, too, has the gene. This means that her children don't know anything about the cause of my disease. There are interventions that could protect any future grandchildren, but her children don't know they are in danger of passing the disease along. I have been tempted to tell my sister's children myself, but I know this would result in a major breach in our relationship (a real loss to me). What is my ethical responsibility here? Name Withheld A. ... The trouble isn't that your sister refuses to be tested. That's her choice. ... The trouble is that she wants to prevent her children from knowing what she already knows. By keeping them in the dark, she's robbing them of the ability to make their own choices. And here's a critical point. Even if they declined to be tested themselves, simply knowing that they're at risk would enable them to protect any children they might have in the future, through "nondisclosure testing." Clinics can conduct pre?implantation embryo screening without sharing the results with the at-risk parent... Preserving your own uncertainty is defensible; putting others in jeopardy is not... As painful as a breach in your relationship with your sister would be, it's clear that your sister's misguided plan is itself weighing heavily on you. Urge her to level with her children about the facts. (She could implore them not to tell her if they are tested and get a positive result.) Were she still to refuse, tell them yourself. KT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:53:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200311205357.GG11689@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 08:58:20PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing >> practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, >> some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... > How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 > kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different > minhagim? Chazal wanted everyone doing the same thing, but rather than mandate one definition of the teru'ah to the exclusion of the others, we all do all three of them. This innovation breaks from everyone doing the same. But more than that... Chazal had the power to pasqen and would have pasqened if they didn't feel this compromise brought more achdus. Being chosheish for shitas Rashi after centuries of no one (or kim'at no one) blew according to shitas Rashi is an unwillingness to pasqen. And an unwillingness to accept that the halachic process can actually say A is right and B wrong. It's questioning the whole concept of pesaq! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:02:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311200248.GD11689@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:45:42AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be > holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six > different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). > > This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he > does so here? Never found an answer, and a month later, I'm giving up. BUT, I liked the Y-mi's explanation at the end of Challah pereq 1 (vilna daf 9b) cited at the SA ad loc by the Gra -- OC 167 s"q 4 . The ten fingers are a reminder of the 10 mitzvos it took to get the bread: 1- Lo sacharosh - Not plowing with a kelaim of animals 2- Bal tizra - Not planting kelaim 3- Bal tachsom - Not muzzling the animals to keep them from eating 4- Leqet 5- Shikhechah 6- Pei'ah 7- Terumah 8- Maaser Rishon 9- Maaser Sheini (or Maaser Ani, depending on the year, though not mentioned in the Y-mi) 10- Challah Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:20:47 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live R Ari Kahn (of Bar Ilan) came out in favor of such readings, the mar'eh meqomos for his shiur are available at https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2020/03/hearing-megillah-over-telephone-or.html AIUI, RAK's primary concern was to reassure people who have no choice, and to make sure questionable cases don't risk spreading disease by showing up. So he really presents the case for only one side. RGS pointed people to R Daniel Z Feldman's (RIETS) older piece (not reflecting this year's she'as hadechaq) in Tradition at https://traditiononline.org/the-virtual-minyain which gives both sides of the story. I tried to lend my megillah to someone so that they could listen to the above-linked reading at YU and read along from a kosher megillah. But, my livingroom is being painted, the bookcase where I keep my megillah was among those boxed up, and someone else beat me to the mitzvah. In Westchester County, NY, Chabad managed to organize leining for 100 quarantined people by having the baal qeriah read on a deck or porch, outside an open door or window. But such arrangements are not available to everyone. I saw on Facebook the following social concern that I thought was interesting and valid enough to share here. https://www.facebook.com/matthew.kritz.9/posts/2899197760173502 R Matthew Nitzanim writes (in part): This is why I fear the live-feed Megillah readings. There is no doubt that it is the most practical solution to ensure more people hear the Megillah, without risking more people catching the virus, and there is arguably halachic grounds to allow the practice (even as the debate continues), especially under these extenuating circumstances. But once virtual readings are normalized, what will Purim look like next year? I'm not too worried about no one showing up for Megillah next year - we all know it's more fun to boo for Haman and show off our costumes with friends around. But what about all those people who are alone, boxed out of society? Will the hospital and the rehab center call the local yeshiva for volunteers to come visit, or will they suffice with arranging a dial-in reading (which will inevitably come to be replaced with a recording for those who can't distinguish)? Will the readers and merry-makers of years past feel less push to pay visits when the mitzvah can be fulfilled electronically? Certainly this change wouldn't happen in just one year, but perhaps we are setting a precedent that will be taken seriously in years to come. Because what's at stake is not merely the obligation to hear the Megillah. What is at stake is the future of community and interpersonal connection in the age of digital media. Performing one of our most communal mitzvot through a screen means radically reimagining the very meaning of community, a process that is already well underway. Among the Orthodox, the study of Torah, traditionally intended to bring people into the same room, is increasingly done via recorded shiurim. Elsewhere in the Jewish world, services are taped and can be watched from home, and you can even find a dial-in Kaddish minyan. And shout out to the various Skype Seudot and Zoom Tishes spreading Purim cheer to the quarantined. Each of these is an exciting way digital communication can be used to better include those would otherwise be left out. But if we aren't careful with the pace of development, we will end up creating tools that, although intended to increase connection and participation, will further distance and disenfranchise those who were already only hoping for a visitor or two, and will be left with nothing but a computer screen. What we are watching is reminiscent of the Conservative Movement's ruling permitting driving on Shabbat -- intended to increase access to communal life, but perhaps in the process weakening the physical proximity that keeps community alive, with only time to tell whether the benefits outweigh the costs. So too with screen talk: appealing as it may be in this moment, down the road, we risk harming the very deep sense of community that held us together in ancient Persia and through the ages to this very day. Maybe this is a moment where we would benefit from Halacha being less accommodating of the present, and more oppositional and countercultural.... So he recommends making a heqer: So be cautious this Purim, not only hygienically, but spiritually too. If I had a say, I would encourage those who are doing the holy work of reading Megillah by livestream for people in quarantine not to say the Brachot, even if they are also reading for themselves, to make clear that this is a sub par, temporary fix, and not necessarily an ideal, long term change. And finally, this nice thought is off topic for the thread, but worth sharing: More importantly, for everyone stuck at home this Purim, please take it upon yourself, once your quarantine is LONG SINCE OVER, to pay a visit to someone who feels alone for more than two weeks at a time. It can be next Purim, or maybe even sooner. Take your experience of being homebound, and allow it to be a springboard for being more aware of the many, many people who would give anything not to be alone, to be greeted by a friendly face with a warm smile, by someone who remembered that it's Purim for them too. More than an ecard, or a phone call, or a Zoom chat, what they really want to see is you. qiyum is suboptimal. -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:28:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202821.GF11689@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving > priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." What the "this" was aside, I didn't think that's why we ignore those priorities. Rather, it ends up never being halakhah lemaaseh even from day one. The mishnah itself says these priorities are "all else being equal". And all else is never equal. The reisha is just one triage factor among many. The problem, thus, isn't abiding, but in deciding which mamzer is enough of a talmid chakham to go ahead of the kohein gadol, or which baal chessed outranks the innate qedushah of a kohein. Or... Lack of ability to assess, not lack of emotional constitution to follow through. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:56:30 2020 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or rimon? On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos > that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic > transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > > From penkap at panix.com Wed Mar 11 18:28:28 2020 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: ? For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" ?And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. ?So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. ?A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers.? The amount of sechel in this comment is almost overwhelming. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 11 21:26:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Perhaps one can add as a snif to "permit" it the Chasam Sofer on Hil' Kidush Levana, citing a case during a cholera epidemic in Cracow, when the rov of the time found a heter to say kidush levana on the 16th night so that people who would not otherwise be able to say it should not get depressed and ch"v endanger themselves. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:58:07 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: On Areivim, the issue was raised that the shuls in Bergen County NJ are now closed, and the question of "house minyanim" was raised too. I have a question about house minyanim that I'd like to discuss. My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. Once that minyan exists, additional people can be in adjoining rooms, provided that they can see and hear. I've often been at house minyanim where fewer people are in the room with the Shliach Tzibur, and the rest are in an adjoining room. The doorway between them is so wide that people don't give it a second thought. It seems to me that even though there is no actual door separating these two rooms, the fact that there's a mezuzah between them might define them as distinct rooms for the halacha of establishing a minyan. I hope I have explained the situation clearly enough. The MB does not seem to specify the width of the doorway in question, nor did I see any distinction between a "doorway" and an "open door". I suppose someone could argue that the problem exists only for standard-width doors which happen to be open at the moment, and that there's no problem for a living room and dining room that happen to have a mezuzah between them. Has anyone see any poskim write about this? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:02:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hand shake Message-ID: Listened to a shiur where the magid shiur said that R'X used to advise job interviewees to use the dead fish handshake, then later advised the iron man handshake until he was told that each of those would not get you a job. Now he advises a firm, quick business-like handshake. May I vent - I heard R'X say these things over the years and always wondered who he had asked about the real world. How many job opportunities were lost?? etc.?? How much of a responsibility does a poseik have to determine "reality"? (Another example - toveiling electronics) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:04:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals Message-ID: Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 18 08:05:11 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> On 18/3/20 3:04 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals > per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in > halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and condiments to make the bread taste better. Sometimes a grain porridge would substitute for the bread, but the essential roles were the same. To us, the bread, if it appears at all, is a condiment or entree to the real food. We don't eat bread with meat, we eat meat with bread. Even with grains, we regard them as a side dish, not as the main part of the course. So in principle the entire basis of hil' bh"n should be reversed. Next: Undoing the whole concept of 7 mashkim, and the principle that the juice of any fruit but grapes and olives is not a mashkeh. Not just in hil' bh"n and shabbos, but also in hil' taharos. (At least in principle, since they're not practical halachos anyway.) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 11:33:16 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: In Avodah V38n19, RAMiller noted: > My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. < But see the latter half of BH 55:14/MB 55:50. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Mar 15 18:42:51 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper _______________________________________________ Areivim mailing list Areivim at lists.aishdas.org http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 19 07:10:49 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 4 amos and Epidimeology Message-ID: <20200319141049.GA17120@aishdas.org> Is it "coincidence" or do you think it's common cause: The recommended distance to be sure we don't breathe on each other is given as 6 feet or 2 m, depending on what the masses being recommended to think in. Which "just happens to be" just around the 4 amos radius used to define a person's space for the sake of davening or acquisitions. (As an ammah is defined by to the Rambam, R Chaim Naeh, and the plaque on the wall found at Chizqiyahu's water tunnel. Not the CI. Would tzadiq gozer veE' meqayeim mean that people need to be be staying farther apart in Bnei Braq to be safe?) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 19 09:23:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> References: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> Message-ID: There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. =================================== He also said (From R' Torcyner translation): And after each prayer, evening and morning, they should recite Tehillim, certain psalms which his honour should select, and then the text of Kel rachum sh'mecha, Aneinu Hashem aneinu, Mi she'anah, and the Y'hi ratzon after Tehillim, mentioning in it the king, may Gd protect him, and his children and nobles and all who live in his land. IMHO the last part is also about the realization that a united community response is required bderech hateva (not each subsegment deciding on its own what to do) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 05:20:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:20:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger by R Herschel Schachter Message-ID: <20200320122008.GA4902@aishdas.org> This is an abornamlly long piece for Facebook, but it's making the rounds there. :-)BBii! -Micha The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger Rav Hershel Schachter Many have the mistaken impression that the Jewish religion places much emphasis on death and respect for the dead; after all, we recite kaddish, yizkor, observe shiva, and yahrzeit, etc. This is a gross misunderstanding. The respect that we show for the dead is a carryover from the respect that we show for the living. The Gemorah (Kesubos 17a, see Shitah Mekubetzes) tells us that whenever there is a conflict between kovod ha'chayim and kovod ha'meisim, kovod ha'chaim takes precedence. When the chevra kadisha brings in the aron at a funeral, everyone stands up. People mistakenly think that we stand up out of respect for the niftar, but in many cases we never stood up for him when he was alive, so why should we stand up for him now that he passed away? The Bartenurah (Mishnayos Bikurim 3:3) explains that we are not standing up out of respect for the niftar but rather out of respect for the members of the chevra kaddisha who are presently involved in the fulfillment of a mitzvah. The respect for the living is based on the premise that all human beings were created b'tzelem Elokim. When the Torah requires us to demonstrate kovod ha'meis, it means that even after the person passed away and no longer has tzelem Elokim, i.e. a neshama, we still have to act respectfully towards the body because it used to have a tzelem Elokim. Of the six hundred and thirteen mitzvos, one of the most important is the mitzvah of v'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem (Yoma 85b). Not only does the halacha require that if there is a sofek sakanah we must violate almost all of the mitzvos in the Torah to save a life, but we are also required to do so even if there is only a s'fek s'feika, a remote possibility(Yoma 85a). The Gemorah (ibid) adds that even if the likelihood is that by violating Shabbos or whatever other aveira we most probably will not be saving anyone's life, we still do not abstain from the action due to that likelihood (rove - majority). When Bnei Yisroel were traveling in the midbar for 40 years, the weather conditions were such that there was a slight sakanah in performing bris milah. Most of the sh'votim did not fulfill the mitzvah except for sheivet Levi[1]. They had an Orthodox rabbi among them, i.e. Moshe Rabbeinu. Why didn't all the shevatim ask him what to about this sofek sakanah? If it is a real sofek sakanah he should not have permitted sheivet Levi to perform the mitzvah despite their pietistic protests, and if the sofek sakanah was so insignificant that it simply should have been dismissed, why didn't he insist that all the shevatim perform the mitzvah of milah? The Gemorah (Yevamos 12b) tells us that the answer is to be found in Tehillim (116:6), "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." Whenever there is a slight sofek sakanah that is nowhere near fifty-fifty[2], the halacha declares that it depends on the attitude of the patient. If the patient whose life is at risk (or the parent of the patient who is responsible for his well-being) is personally not nervous about the danger, then the halacha does not consider it a sofek sakanah; we apply "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." But if the patient whose life is at risk is nervous and concerned about the sofek sakanah, then the halacha requires us to act based on, "V'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem", and the sofek sakanah takes precedence over almost all of the mitzvos of the Torah. Shevet Levi had bitachon, and therefore were not concerned, and therefore for their children it was not considered a sofek sakanah, but with respect to the other shevatim who were concerned it was in fact a sofek sakanah, so every shevet was acting k'din. However, if one individual is not concerned, but the nature of the sakanah is such that everyone is interdependent and the individual who personally is not nervous may possibly spread a disease to others who are concerned about its spread, then the concept of Shomer p'soyim Hashem does not apply. The individual who is not concerned does not have the right to determine for the others who are concerned that there is no sakanah for them. The Rakanti[3] relates that one of Ba'alei Ha'tosfos was deathly sick before Yom Kippur and the doctors warned him that if he fasts he will certainly die but if he eats on Yom Kippur there is a slim chance that he may survive. He decided to fast, and of course he died. All of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos were upset over his decision and felt that he went against the halacha. If a terrorist threatens to kill me unless I violate one of the mitzvos of the Torah, the halacha usually is that pikuach nefesh takes precedence over most of the mitzvos in the Torah. What if an individual wants to put up a fight knowing that he may well lose his life but thinks that by being moser nefesh he will fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem? This matter was a famous dispute amongst the Rishonim. The Rambam's opinion is that one may not volunteer to give up his life al kiddush Hashem when not required by halacha because this is tantamount to suicide[4]. Many other Rishonim disagreed with the Rambam. However, if there is no terrorist pressuring me to violate my religion, but there is merely a dangerous situation of sickness then all of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos agreed with the Rambam that it would not constitute a midas chassidus to ignore the sakanah[5]. In determining what is a sakanah and what is not, the practice of the Tanoim always was to follow the doctors of their generation. Every so often the Rambam would take a stand on a medical issue against what it says in the Gemorah and the Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah #101) explains that the Rambam was a doctor and he did exactly as the Tanoim did, namely, to follow the doctors of his generation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 331:9) also says explicitly that we follow the doctors of our generation even in contradiction to the medicine recommended in the Gemorah. We should certainly do the same as the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and follow the doctors of our generation in determining what is considered a sakanah and what is not considered a sakanah. Some well-meaning individuals have blown out of halachic proportion the significance of tefillah b'tzibur and talmud Torah b'rabim and have opted to ignore the sofek sakanah presented by the corona virus when in conflict with these two most important mitzvos. We live in a generation where many b'nei Torah tend to exaggerate the significance of Torah and tefillah. Although their intention is certainly l'shaim Shomayim, we must all keep in mind that when paskening shailos, one may not rely on an exaggeration. All exaggerations by definition are sheker - a misrepresentation of the truth of the Torah. Rav Chaim Volozhiner signs off quite a few of his teshuvos saying, "Keil Emes, Nosan lanu Toras Emes, u'bilti el ho'emes eineinu - the true God gave us the true Torah, and we only look for the truth." Any exaggeration in the area of Torah and halacha is clearly a misrepresentation of our religion. The commentaries on Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 157) refer to the comments of the Maharshal in his sefer Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kamma 38a) that to misrepresent a law of the Torah constitutes an aveira related to avodah zorah[6] and as such would be subject to the principle of yeihoreig v'al ya'avor. With respect to a sofek sakanah the halacha clearly requires that we go extremely l'chumrah. Especially religious Jews, who know that they are charged with a mission in life, should certainly be extremely machmir on matters of sofek sakanah. Although every word of a poem appears in the dictionary, the poet conveys an idea by putting the words in a certain order. So too, different people can have the same ideas and the same principles, but if you put them in a different arrangement you have changed the whole understanding if each one of the principles[7]. Once you exaggerate the significance of any particular mitzvah, you have misrepresented the whole picture of kol haTorah kula. [1] See Rashi, Devarim 33:9. [2] See Achiezer, volume 1, #23,2. [3] Siman 166; see Teshuvos Dvar Yehoshua, vol. 2 #94 [4] Hilchos Yesodei haTorah, 5:1. [5] See Mishna Berura 328:6. [6] Because we believe that the Torah is a description of the essence of G-d, misrepresenting the Torah is tantamount to misrepresenting G-d Himself [7] Thoughts 1:22, by Blaise Pascal` From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 07:07:03 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Message-ID: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> R R Wolpoe or R Ben Hecht (the blog post gives me mixed signals) posted the following guidelines from R Yaakov Hoffman of the Washington Heights Congregation designed for his congregation. (Not to be confused with R Yair Hoffman of the 5TJT.) http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-rrw-guest-blogger-rabbi-yaakov.html On factor I noticed RYH didn't mention that I saw others did was maintaining your usual davening times. (Assuming we're not talking about kevasiqin as the other option.) :-)BBii! -Micha NishmaBlog Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Friday, 20 March 2020 >From RRW Guest Blogger: Rabbi Yaakov Hoffman Below is a halachic guide I prepared for my shul on how to daven on Shabbos without a minyan, and general halachos one should know that are affected by not being in a shul framework on Shabbos. Feel free to use/adapt for your own shuls. Also, I would be happy to receive any he'aros you may have. Thanks. Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide - One should make an effort to daven Mincha on Friday before plag ha-mincha (this week ~5:50pm). - It is not necessary to recite the full Kabbalat Shabbat as recited in shul; reciting Lecha Dodi, Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat, Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh, and Bameh Madlikin is sufficient. One should recite Lecha Dodi and Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat before sunset (this week ~7:07pm). - Although ordinarily one should daven Maariv after nightfall when praying without a minyan, on Friday evening one may daven after plag (preferably one should wait ~20 minutes after plag). The Shema must be repeated after nightfall (tzeit ha-kochavim, this Friday ~7:42pm). - One may make Kiddush and begin the meal immediately after davening Maariv. If one has not yet begun the meal by tzeit ha-kochavim, one must repeat the Shema before eating. - Those who arise early are strongly encouraged to daven ke-vatikin -- timing one's Shacharit to begin the Amidah at sunrise (this week ~6:56am). - If one is pressed for time (e.g., in order to daven at sunrise, or because one needs to help out at home), one can skip the extra psalms added during Psukei de-Zimra on Shabbat, with the exception of Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat and Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh. - Men should take care to daven Shacharit before the latest time for the Shema (this week ~10am). - After the Amidah of Shacharit, one recites Ashrei and then the Amidah of Musaf, followed by Ein k'Elokeinu, Aleinu, and Shir shel Yom. - It is extremely advisable to read or study the weekly parashah at some point over Shabbat (and to be extra careful about shnayim mikra during the preceding week). - On Shabbat Mevarchim, it is a good idea to remind oneself and one's household about the upcoming Rosh Chodesh (Rosh Chodesh Nisan is Thursday March 26). One does not recite the formal prayer for the upcoming month that is recited in shul. - One should wash for the Shabbat morning meal before midday (this week ~1pm). - One should daven Mincha before eating se`udah shlishit. - Se`udah shlishit should begin before sunset, and may extend as long as one likes. After benching, or after 10 minutes post-sunset (whichever is later), one may not eat or drink anything except water until after Havdalah. - One should not daven Maariv on Saturday night until after Shabbat is over (this week ~7:50pm); preferably, one should not do any melacha before davening Maariv (with atah chonantanu) or making Havdalah. - Baruch Hashem L'Olam is omitted in Maariv when not davening with a minyan. The rest of Maariv, including additions for motza'ei Shabbat, is recited as usual. Veyiten lecha may be recited after Havdalah. Vihi no`am and ve'attah kadosh are omitted on the Saturday night preceding Pesach (and Shavuot, but hopefully we will be back in shul well before then!), but veyiten lecha is still recited. Yaakov Hoffman Rabbi, Washington Heights Congregation[5] www.bridgeshul.com Posted by Rabbi Ben Hecht at 9:08 am From dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk Fri Mar 20 05:02:57 2020 From: dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk (D Rubin) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> References: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 From: Zev Sero > I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so > completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made > hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who > can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and > condiments to make the bread taste better... http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29994 From zev at sero.name Fri Mar 20 08:38:46 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Also omit bracha me'ein sheva, as one does whenever one is not davening with a regularly scheduled minyan. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at Segalco.com Sat Mar 21 11:26:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Interesting-no mention of remembering to dress for shabbat KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From isaac at balb.in Sat Mar 21 04:29:28 2020 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:29:28 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis a vis Lo Sa'amod? 2. Has there been any advice to Mohelim who normally do Metzitza bPeh to cease the practice at this time? 3. Does a Rav have a Chiyuv as Mesader Kiddushin to cease proceedings until there is (in Australia) 4 meters square between people 4. Does a Caterer have a Chiyuv to cease serving food at a Simcha or the like if it too is breaching guidelines? _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ??? From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:35:43 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kshering Metal Sinks Message-ID: . The Chicago CRC has a video on hag'alat keilim at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HSfRG69ho&feature=youtu.be I am curious about two things he said at 6:52-6:59, about kashering a metal sink: 1) "make sure that it's a continuous flow and not to stop in the middle from that pot" 2) "start from the bottom and then you work your way up" Why should it be a continuous flow? What's wrong with pausing the flow, as long as every square millimeter gets hit? And what is the advantage of doing the floor of the sink prior to the walls? Alternatively, what's the downside of kashering the walls first? My totally uneducated guess is that the runoff from the walls would do a "chozer v'niur" on the floor, cancelling the 24-hour wait, whereas if the floor is done first, the runoff from the walls is not sufficiently chometzdik to invalidate the kashering. Am I close? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 24 16:23:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: <20200324232314.GA12402@aishdas.org> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 I see two distinct conversations here: - Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? - Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc... When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria. -Micha IsraelNationalNews.com Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33 A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the presence of the "Zoom" program. The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly people who cannot be physically close to their family members due to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their family through the program. The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the start of the holiday. Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency. "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness, so is the case here," the rabbis wrote. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:29:48 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minor fasts? Message-ID: The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare with other b'al nefesh call outs? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:31:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut Message-ID: A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have failed this test. Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:18:33 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder Message-ID: More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to him? I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps, and we would not want to skip any of them. For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on, and then eating the karpas. But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha, the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately. Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on during the meal. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they arise. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 25 13:40:14 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:40:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:56:23 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325215623.GC14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > > accepted as given. > > One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is > universal.... Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal. > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example ... > Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually > a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't > think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist > that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." > Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of > famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading > scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even > existed. And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population. https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US. https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are non-sighted people. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:37:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> Message-ID: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: > 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching > government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis > a vis Lo Sa'amod? I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera > epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, > davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan > that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to > station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:33:51 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The 5780th Pasuk Message-ID: <20200325213351.GA11104@aishdas.org> There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the corresponding pasuq. So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24: Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov... Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to the year of RMF's petirah. So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28: Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah ve'ein bahem tevunah. Of course, I don't know what to make of that. OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth, 5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim): Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha... >From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at "R Eliyahu Shelomo". This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the 601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo: Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz... (I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es haqeitz.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:40:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? See AhS OC 158:13 , where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not, and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open -- safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:04:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325220433.GD14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote: > On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos >> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic >> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or > rimon? You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit if an esrog is unavailable. If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is complex. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Decisions are complex. Author: Widen Your Tent The Torah is complex. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' Binyamin Hecht From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:19:11 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: <20200325211911.GA6964@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable >> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as >> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the >> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt >> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would >> have failed this test. Thoughts? > He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his > colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, > Achiyah Hashiloni. The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact limits of a relative term. If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim, then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the seeds were there. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 10:40:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m! Message-ID: <20200326174000.GA8153@aishdas.org> Save the date! SAVE THE DATE Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020 1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom! https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598 There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time with a Facebook account, just email me at micha at aishdas.org and ask to be included. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 25 23:15:16 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. --------------------------- For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah KT and stay safe Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:14:21 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger asked: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 > ... > Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi > names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA > systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article. I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this in paragraph Aleph: "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei Ashkenaz. But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other reasons? Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 09:24:16 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >> a vis Lo Sa'amod? > > I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera >> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, >> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan >> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to >> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 12:14:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus Message-ID: <20200326191427.GB19172@aishdas.org> The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't want to post the question, but invited me to. RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that is particularly communicable. As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum number of people necessary. But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to the babies. Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear someone discuss the question? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From crclbas at mail.aol.com Thu Mar 26 13:16:34 2020 From: crclbas at mail.aol.com (BenS) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom seder Message-ID: <202003862i1634.GA18647@aishdas.org> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger wrote: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 ... >> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the >> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly >> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due >> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their >> family through the program. I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak. Ben From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 15:02:56 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >>> a vis Lo Sa'amod? >> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ... > No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In > that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested > that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government > to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it > (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing > them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know > how RAE would answer the question posed here. If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to have the police there to break up any violations? Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 17:01:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, > rather than prevent or break up violations? Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places, including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report* to the authorities a violation of *their* rules. Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not yours. So it's very different from RAE's case. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mgluck at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:45:27 2020 From: mgluck at gmail.com (mgluck at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> References: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <027501d603f2$89d05870$9d710950$@gmail.com> R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... ---- R' MB: I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? --------- IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing doesn't make him tahor either, according to that. KT, MYG From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:40:46 2020 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well > known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa > hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon > Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom > Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many > Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." > > Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei > Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or > whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei > Ashkenaz. > The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the latter option would seem to be correct. > > But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. > The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under those circumstances. > > But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a > regular basis? > Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice. ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less widespread. IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let alone the end of maggid, are minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:06:34 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim Message-ID: . For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating, then do we really have permission to break the fast? Think about that for a moment. If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English, so it's HIS words, not my translation.) <<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>> Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:33:50 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:33:50 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns Message-ID: . When I was younger, the electric urns that we used for hot water on Shabbos were very simple: fill it, plug it in, and there was a valve for taking the water when you needed it. But many of the newer ones have various settings. Mine ( https://www.amazon.com/ProChef-SM300-35-Cup-Water-Shabbostat/dp/B07FK8KTZ6) for example, has three settings, called Regular, Shabbat, and Yom Tov. The manual gives the following explanation of the three settings: > Regular Mode: Keeps the water hot based on the water temperature > Shabbat Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer > Yom Tov Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer and is Halachically permissible to add cold water on Yom Tov Based on that explanation, this is my understanding: In Regular Mode, the thermostat is in full control; when the water gets too cool the heater will turn on until the correct temperature is reached, and then the heater turns off. In Shabbat and Yom Tov modes, the thermostat never responds to the water being too cool. Rather, every so often the timer will turn the heater on, and the thermostat will turn the heater off when the water is hot enough. So what's the difference between Shabbat Mode and Yom Tov mode? If I would use the Shabbat Mode on Yov Tov, is it assur to add water? If I would use the Yom Tov Mode on Shabbat, is there a problem? These are not theoretical questions. If we are still in Chutz Laaretz for this coming Pesach, we'll have a "three day yom tov", and I don't know which setting is preferable. Does anyone else know? Thank you! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Mar 29 10:15:09 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tefillah When Davening Alone Message-ID: Click here to download "Tefillah When Davening Alone" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 30 08:17:44 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:17:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato Message-ID: Please see https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:04 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Announcing Geshem Message-ID: . In Dec 2011, in the thread "Announcing Tal Umatar", I asked why halacha demands such critical announcements for starting and stopping the prayer for Geshem, yet no formal announcements at all for starting and stopping Tal Umatar. I got no response at all. I asked the same question again in Oct 2015, in the thread "Announcing Geshem". This time I did get one response, from R' Micha Berger, who wrote: > Well, it does make sense to me that baqashos have a level of > personalization that we do not find in shevach. I can insert > whatever baqashos I want to add for birkhas hashanim, so things > are more fluid there. > > My question is more your first one -- why must shevach be communal? > Not making up your own adjectives for G-d, I understand; but even > if I were to switch without everyone in the qehillah doing so yet > (because of the lack of announcement), I wouldn't be doing that... His answer seems very similar to what I found in a teshuva from Rav Hershel Schachter, https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950285/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-9-hallel-on-pesach-night-and-tefillas-tal/ released just yesterday, on how we should handle the switchover this coming Pesach, when most of us will have no effective tzibur for the announcement. The brackets are mine, parentheses are Rav Schachter's. > There is a big difference between She'eila (V'sen Tal Umatar > Livracha) and Hazkara (Mashiv Haruach). See what I wrote in > the name of our Rav [Soloveitchik] in MiPeninei HaRav (section > Tefila, number 5), that changing the descriptions of Hashem > (from Mashiv Haruach to Morid Hatal) requires Reshus Hatzibur, > and an individual is not allowed to make changes on his own. So to answer *my* question, Tefilas Geshem and Tefilas Tal are not informational. They don't simply inform us about the change, they *authorize* the change. And that authorization is not needed in Barech Aleinu. And to answer RMB's question, I'd suggest learning that section of MiPeninei HaRav. (Rav Schachter did give his views there about what we should do in our private Musafs this coming yom tov, but I need to learn it a few more times, and understand it better, before I comment on it.) Akiva Miller Stay Home - Save Lives . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:20:34 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] roll your own Message-ID: An oleh one Thursday (hopefully we will be back in shul soon) morning insisted on reading his own aliyah. I was surprised that the gabbai/Rabbi did not waive him off (given the reason individual olim stopped reading was so as not to embarrass others). Is this at all common? KT and Be Well Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:21:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ukimtas Message-ID: When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara(e.g. the gemara really was dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 2 13:37:43 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: >From today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? A. The Steipler Gaon (Orchos Rabbeinu 2:57) writes that one who studies Gemara or any other subject cannot make a siyum unless one understood the subject matter. The learning need not be with great depth. It is enough that one learns the p?shat (simple understanding). Many poskim hold that this is true even if one did not study the Gemara with Rashi or any other commentary. Sefer Ohr L?Tzion (3:12, ha?arah 1) writes that even if one might have missed a few lines here or there, they can still make a siyum. Similarly, he writes that although when one learns Torah one must vocalize every word (or listen to each word from a chavrusa), but if one occasionally learned by reading the words in one?s mind, one may still make a siyum. One can make a siyum even if one learns a short Masechta such as Tamid or Horiyos, and even if it was studied out of order. Rav Elyashiv, zt?l (Doleh Umashkeh, p. 318:3) held that one person must learn the entire Masechta and it cannot be divided up among a group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sat Jan 4 18:20:44 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: That?s a question which I have always wondered about. The way I see it is the same as taking a test and either passing or failing. If you and I take a test and you get 100 and I get a 60 (assuming that is the passing grade), then I have at least passed. Therefore, I see the same as learning. We both can have learned B?rochos and you know it by heart with all of the m?forshim, and I have learned it enough to get a passing grade so therefore I feel I would have the right to make a siyyum. However, I would look upon your siyyum as more noteworthy (however you wish to interpret that). From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 5 10:41:22 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: <0A849E37-7BD7-45AA-9C73-83FC0FE25429@cox.net> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry is Scripture's way of conveying the conviction that the formative age in Israel's history was not a series of haphazard incidents but the fulfillment of God's grand design??" Avraham lived for 175 years Yitzchok for 180 years Ya'akov for 147years. These numbers form an ordered and symmet- rical series: 7 x 5 squared = 175 (Abraham) 5 x 6 squared = 180 (Isaac) 3 x 7 squared = 147 (Jacob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Tue Jan 7 06:53:14 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:53:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] downloads available.. Message-ID: <134f01d5c56a$313b9010$93b2b030$@touchlogic.com> A coffee drinker's guide to Shabbos micro ground coffee / drip coffee / French press / using timer OUD creamer. do you have to wait 6 hrs till using.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/62kukx9q3ybjs4f/A%20coffee%20drinker%27s%20guide%2 0to%20Shabbos.docx?dl=0 2500 quick English psakim from R Shlomo Miller shlita https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 7 14:12:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? Message-ID: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> From a post: On the one hand, a frustrating element of arbitrariness surrounds umbrella use on Shabbos. Why do we act strictly on this issue, which is hotly debated among authorities, while acting leniently on other disputed issues? God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident. On the other hand, like an individual, a community is defined in part by its past. We cannot change how we got to where we are, our communal evolution through history. As halakhah evolves--within boundaries, of course--we cannot turn back the clock without destabilizing the system. Me: ?God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident.? I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening in ch?ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation) ? Your thoughts? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 04:12:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> Message-ID: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 10:12:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > "God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical > accident." I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories > told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening > in ch"ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at > least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation)? Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a factor in choosing which. After all, we allow for G-d's Will including 49 ways letamei and 49 ways letaheir, and letting humans decide which way of approaching the Truth is necessary for the situation we're in. What I am proposing is more limited than Historical School. With no parallel to some travesty like assigning personal or political motives to a ruling. I am saying that the strengths and weaknesses of how the masses are relating to halakhah itself are historical realities halakhah must account for. Also, to be complete although the issue isn't pragmatic any more -- gezeiros. If you do not believe that Chazal saw where practice *happened to* need shoring up at their moment in time, the decision to make a gezeira to avoid one risk and not a different one seems kind of arbitary at times. I have to believe they were responding to which mistakes were actually being made, or at least mistaken attitudes gaining currnecy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:03:38 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200108200338.GA3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 7:12am EST I replied to RJR: > Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu > va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a > factor in choosing which. This reminds me of another question RJR (was it RJR or is my memory playing tricks?) asked years ago about Goedel's Theorem. Halakhah is immune from Goedel's Theorem: Halakhah on the Divrei Elokim Chaim / dialectic level allows for Eilu veEilu. THere is no Law of Contradiciton, A and not-A can both be Torah, so Goedel's proof fails. Halakhah lemaaseh is not a closed formal system, because -- as I am arguing in this thread -- history matters. It's not a clean room exercise detatched from the realia the poseiq and sho'el/alim are living in. More info from the outside can influence the answer. It's not the kind of system math is, so Goedel's proof fails here too. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:10:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200108201057.GB3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 07:14:21AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: >> We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them >> as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, >> it should be done by example. > Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" > (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish > human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner > consistent with the will of HKB"H... In R' Wolbe's essay titled "Frumkeit" (Alei Shur vol II, available at ), he quotes the Alter of Slabodka as saying "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." The frum person is the one who makes sure to have Shabbos guests each week, but whose guests end up feeling much like his tefillin -- an object with which he did a mitzvah. A person acting out of frumkeit doesn't love to love, he loves in order to be a holier person. And ironically, he thereby fails -- because he never develops that Image of the Holy One he was created to become. The person who acts from self-interest, even from the interest of ascending closer to G-d, will not reach Him. (Taken from my blog post at .) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Thus excellence is not an event, Author: Widen Your Tent but a habit. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aristotle From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 9 11:45:06 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 19:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? Message-ID: >From today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? A. If a person owns their home, they are obligated to put mezuzos on the door as soon as they occupy the home (see Gilyon Maharsha YD 286:22). At what point is one considered an occupant? If one moves furniture and other belongings into a home, but has not actually started living in the house, there is a dispute between the poskim whether a mezuzah is required. The Chovas Hadar (13, footnote 10) assumes there is an obligation, while Rabbi Aharon Felder, in Oholei Yeshurun (page 6, fn 69) quotes other poskim who say the mitzvah begins only when one resides in the home. Shulchan Aruch (YD 236:22) rules that if one rents a house or apartment in the Diaspora, the requirement to put up mezuzos begins after 30 days have elapsed ? on the 31st day (the day of the move counts as day one, even if it is only a partial day.) The Derech Chaim disagrees and maintains that if the lease is for more than 30 days, the obligation to post mezuzos begins immediately. Though most poskim agree with the Shulchan Aruch that there is no obligation to post a mezuzah within 30 days under all circumstances, nonetheless the Magen Avrohom suggests that it is permissible to put a mezuzah on the wall during the first thirty days and recite a bracha. By doing so, the opinion of the Derech Chaim will be covered. The Nachalas Tzvi (286:22) objects to the suggestion of the Magen Avrohom and maintains that the bracha cannot be recited before the mitzvah is obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein (YD 1:179) offers a solution that covers all bases. He recommends putting up the mezuzos (to satisfy the opinion of the Derech Chaim) without a bracha (in deference to the Nachalas Tzvi). After 30 days the mezuzos should be removed, or at least slightly pushed, and then a bracha is required. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 10 06:22:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Askara In-Reply-To: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> References: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200110142208.GA29555@aishdas.org> Talmudology is a blog by R Jeremy Brown on science and gemara, following the daf yomi. (His wife is the known author on Torah topics, Dr Erica Brown.) In this installment, for Berakhos 8a (tomorrow's daf) http://www.talmudology.com/jeremybrownmdgmailcom/2020/1/8/berachot-8a-what-is-askera-and-why-does-it-kill-you or http://bit.ly/36EBBHy RJB rules out the usual translation of "askara" as "croup", since even in their day it wasn't likely to be fatal. Instead, he finds that diphtheria, epiglottitis and quincy fit the gemara's description and suggests it was one of those. Adding another suggestion we're discussed here during the omer in years past: R Sheira Gaon (She'iltos 1:1) says "askara" refers to the sicarii, literally: daggers, but the name was given to the dagger-bearing class of Roman soldiers. His context is the death of R' Aqiva's students by askara; he says they died at the Romans' hands. But, to quote Koren's translation of the gemara, minus the word "croup": [Askara] is like a thorn entangled in a wool fleece, which, when pulled out backwards, tears the wool. Some say that [askara] is like ropes at the entrance to the esophagus, which would be nearly impossible to insert and excruciating to remove. I cannot believe R' Sherira Gaon didn't have an answer for the description in this gemara. Maybe askara is an actual illness that in that one story was being used euphemistically? Or maybe the Romans took to shechting or garroting their victims, r"l? :-)BBii! -Micha PS: Below is a very helpful signature quote, for those of us who spend a lot of time "talking" about things online. -- Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every http://www.aishdas.org/asp argument and to always be right. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Nassan of Breslav - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Likutei Tefilos 94:964 From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 05:52:08 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: > Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." < One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 14 08:32:32 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Adopting Outside the Community Message-ID: <20200114163231.GA17990@aishdas.org> In , or https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/politics-current-affairs/2020/01/why-orthodox-jews-have-been-hesitant-to-adopt-outside-their-community-and-why-they-shouldnt-be/ Malka Groden ("a domestic-adoption advocate in the American Jewish community") writes and article titled: Why Orthodox Jews Have Been Hesitant to Adopt Outside Their Community, and Why They Shouldn't Be I am posting to Avodah because I am including her summaries of points made by RMMS (about the duty to raise nitzotzos, including those in non-Jews) and by RYBS (from Family Redeemed about natural vs covenantal parenthood). And afterwood, the thoughts I had on the subject of adopting non-Jews, developing since the days when we did. ... There is, however, one group of American Jews who are indeed marrying young, having children, and building families deeply connected to Jewish communal infrastructure through synagogues, schools, and a broad range of support organizations. That group comprises both the Charedim and the [M]odern Orthodox... In recent decades, indeed, the Orthodox world has become adept at devising arrangements in support of individuals and families going through life's most significant challenges: medical crises, infertility, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, and more. The organization In Shifra's Arms, for example, supports, emotionally, practically, and financially, Jewish women facing unplanned pregnancies; for another example, the Jewish Children's Adoption Network has placed thousands of Jewish babies with special needs in Jewish homes nationwide. But there's the rub: float within Orthodox precincts any suggestion of becoming involved with the issue of foster care and adoption in the larger society, and the initial response will likely be, "But those children aren't Jewish. Why is this a Jewish cause?" ... [The Lubavitcher] Rebbe taught that Jews are tasked with revealing not only their own "divine spark" but also the divine spark that resides within each human being, Jew and non-Jew alike. Thus, among Chabad's initiatives was a campaign to include, at the start of each day in the nation's public schools, a moment of silence during which all children would have an opportunity to contemplate their own purpose and responsibilities. Similarly, the Rebbe pushed for criminal-justice reform--stressing that those incarcerated must be given the chance for rehabilitation so that they too can return to their God-given mission in life--at a time when this issue did not command the broad consensus it enjoys today. Both of these projects, geared simultaneously toward Jews and the broader community, reflected the Rebbe's firmly activist view of the essential worth of each human being. With a proper moral foundation and education, he held, every individual, however highly or humbly situated, has the potential to grow and reveal his or her own divine spark. It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home. Meanwhile, Rabbi Soloveitchik, coming at the issue from his own direction, devoted an entire volume of essays, Family Redeemed, to the theme of family relationships. In one of these essays, he describes two forms of parenthood. The first form, "natural parenthood," is represented by Adam and Eve. The motherhood of Eve is instinctual and all-consuming; her entire being is involved, through the nine months of pregnancy and onward through the physical and biological demands of childbirth and child rearing. For Adam, by contrast, fathering a child makes no biological claims at all; after the child's birth, he is free to act exactly as he did before. With Abraham and Sarah, a new form--"covenantal" or "redeemed" parenthood--is revealed. For the first time, fatherhood demands something of men: Abraham must serve as an educator, molding his children and the next generation. In this mission, Sarah, the redeemed mother, joins him as partner and essential link in the transmission of the covenant. Separate from the biological demands made on her as a mother, motherhood takes on a larger ethical meaning to which she in turn makes a free commitment. At the start of the Jewish people's history, God confers on the first foremother and forefather the chance to move beyond the innate ties of biology and assume a trans-generational mission. ... By learning from the remarkable work done by American Christians, and by actualizing the core Jewish mission through the redemptive power of the Jewish family, American Jews can begin to help bring healing to a generation of children wounded and forgotten. I am not a huge fan of focusing on the need for homes as a motive for adoption. I am afraid of too many children being taken on as chessed projects rather than letting a normal parent-child relationship develop. But let me focus on Avodah material. If someone wants to adopt in order to continue their mimetic line, (along with the joys and the aggravations of parenting -- kind of like gilu bir'adah) the halakhos are simpler and cleaner when adopting a non-Jewish child. The giyur will be al daas beis din, and the parents are apitrupusei beis din. There is actually a halachically recognized tie between parents and adopted child, and the chinukh you provide is a chiyuv. (Not the chiyuv of "veshinantam levanekha", but still, a chiyuv.) That said, I still think aniyei irekha qodmin -- as long as there are Jewish children to be found, in today's climate of Open Adoption the halachic issues are generally resolvable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair: http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while, Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:32:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) Message-ID: My comment on a hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) shiur: imho an example of trying to codify something that is primarily mimetic. 100 shiurim can't take the place of role models who demonstrate how to know when it will be accepted and how time and place define when to dig in your heels on what issues. Also how you evaluate the impact on the individual vs. the community. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:35:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:35:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hedgehog? Message-ID: On R' Gil Perl's hedgehog piece https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ : I would agree that if MO's goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys' rabbeim's question as to why I just didn't put on a black hat ,is that I just don't think it's what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 20th century) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t613k at aol.com Tue Jan 14 22:42:12 2020 From: t613k at aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> In Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1 dated 1/4/2020? >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinksthat the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... <>>> This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against Orthodox Jews for 200 years.? But this accusation is simply not true.? We Orthodox Jews should not internalize the false image that our enemies have of us.? This belief that our enemies are right about us reflects a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.? Since we are all human beings, of course we all have our faults.? But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <>? In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim? --Toby Katzt613k at aol.com ============= ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 15 05:39:53 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <> --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com I would simply say community should be judged by the following ???- Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying.-Ralph Waldo Emerson Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 06:23:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] =?iso-8859-1?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Adam=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200115142357.GA30570@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 06:42:12AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote: >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, >> thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... > > This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against > Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against > Orthodox Jews for 200 years... And the Semag made against us 700 yearts ago, in asei #74. In explaining why, lemaaseh, one does have to return an aveidas aku"m, he writes , tr. mine so see it in the original at the link: I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain and the rest of Goliyos Edom that now that the exile has gone on far too long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of the world and grab onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not commit sin, do not speak lies, and one won't find a false tongue in their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them, the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People] for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesn't plant a kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One, blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves with trickery, who will attach to them? And R Breuer, 69 years ago, wrote "`Glatt Kosher -- Glatt Yoshor" because he felt a need to remind people that the latter is more important than the former (translation via RYL). To give just the closing: We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for "Glatt Kosher" with an equally intensive one for "Glatt Yoshor." This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13): "The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." As for the wonderful things our community does, a couple of theories: While my negative stereotype is truer than RnTK will admit to herself, it is still just a generalization. The number of people running and participating in those gema"chs, bikur cholim, the chevrah.... they don't total anywhere near half of us. Second, there is just being a religious community. Compare ourselves to another Middle or Upper-Middle class religious community. Look at chessed among actual aku"m like the Mormons. And yet we have the Emes! And we have a system that shapes our lives to inclucate that Emes, from what we eat to how we put on our shoes! Third, bein adam lachaveiro also has a BALM aspect, and we do see signs that it is that aspect that drives much of the chessed. Like the numerous articles by BT, singles, people who rely on Shabbos hospitality, who so often leave feeling like they served as an esrog, a cheftza shel mitzvah. The Alter of Slabodka says something related, about the lishmah of BALC (found quoted in Alei Shur vol II, tr. mine): "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning, http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to Author: Widen Your Tent mend." - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Jan 15 05:56:18 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira Message-ID: <006801d5cbab$90687a70$b1396f50$@touchlogic.com> https://lehavin.org/ At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both topics and keyword searches From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Jan 15 11:27:46 2020 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: <6757A82F-25CA-46D9-A1F0-1C001AA62A5B@tenzerlunin.com> I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh, brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore BALC in the face of BALM. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:56 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: R'n TK writes: "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?" R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Indeed, there is the rub. We learn one thing, but how much do we practice? Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters. An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring home to the shabbos table, and what-not. It was a terrific program. (I have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome -- see https://projectderech.org/). My kids, B"H, are still positively effected by that program. I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15 years ago or so (IIRC) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:55:44 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha Message-ID: R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted? But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha will NOT be accepted? Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until that standard is met the duty remains. We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands of sheep, stole this one sheep etc. The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous. In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even though they did not seek his forgiveness? as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct. Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all circumstances to be a Chassid? Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch. One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national history. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 19:00:45 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are > shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many > questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon > harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? Other illustrations: 1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha. And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff. This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus. 3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by self-identifying as "frum". Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And which one isn't given kibudim in shul? 3- Newspaper headlines. Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that impression, although most boys do. And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust. So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know I was the exception. 4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there. And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro. Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are middos seen as an end in themselves? 5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!" That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut the line in and of itself, doesn't work. And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe http://www.aishdas.org/asp you can be certain of improving, Author: Widen Your Tent and that's your own self. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aldous Huxley From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 18:40:35 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tochachah until when? Message-ID: <20200116024035.GA7698@aishdas.org> So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6) who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9 . I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else. So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo? How do these two issues shtim together? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 17 09:42:58 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro In-Reply-To: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> References: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200117174258.GA9251@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: >> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are >> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many >> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon >> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? > Other illustrations: Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was triggered. The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael". There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos) which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment): Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t) See a daf image at https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_36079_73.pdf or http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2864&size=2 It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions, nor even Sefaria (see "No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")! :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 18 16:53:29 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo Message-ID: <20200119005329.GA12632@aishdas.org> Times of Israel or https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-at-shiloh-archaeologist-finds-artifacts-hinting-at-biblical-tabernacle/ As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including in full): Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh Jan. 17 2020 According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio, 33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.) https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/742731340&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true -micha From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 19 12:53:49 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question Message-ID: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 19 08:26:56 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? Message-ID: Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father, and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says -- that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These [...] From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 19 22:20:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? _______________________________________________ IMHO 1. Make sure the ba'al kore gets proper medical treatment 2. clean up any mess 3. if the ba'al kore can't continue, get a substitute Now if the oleh is the one bleeding, it's probably a bigger issue. See S"A O"C 140 KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Jan 20 04:48:53 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200120124853.GB13148@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 03:53:49PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > A colleague asked me the following question and I had > no answer. > If the ba'al kore is reading the Torah and either has a > nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer > to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? RJR focused on the leining. But I saw the question as being more about the kashrus of the Torah with the blood on it. Ink spills, which are actually black, do not invalidate a sefer Torah -- as long as the letters remain intact. Now that I think of it, although I do not remember this case in the AhS -- maybe also as long as the ink itself doesn't look like an inserted letter? Blood that is red or brown could invalidate a letter too. Or so I am deducing from the case of black letters that had gold painted on top of them (eg in an attempt to glorify Hashem's name) -- the gold has to be removed. So it seems you have to see the black ink. But I do not think any of my speculation about added letters would apply. And in any case, it should be cleaned up simply out of respect for the Torah. ---- I also had thoughts about tum'ah. And so I wrote the below. But I don't think the blood in either scenario (nose bleed or paper cut) is tamei even to begin with. Struck me after I wrote it, in comparison to dam niddah. Still, I invested time, and there are things in it that might inform, so I didn't delete. There is a derabbanan to treat a seifer Torah as if it were tamei. This was to prevent a practice that became commonplace, that of storing all the holy things together. But rodents would come to eat the terumah, and naw on any scrolls nearby. But once they told the masses that the seifer Torah is not only tamei, but can be metamai one's hands too much for handling terumah, that ended. However, a seifer Torah cannot really become tamei. All of this is about treating it as though tamei. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, http://www.aishdas.org/asp if only because it offers us the opportunity of Author: Widen Your Tent self-fulfilling prophecy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Arthur C. Clarke From rabbiknopf at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:12:57 2020 From: rabbiknopf at yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> I've read this recent discussion with great interest. Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious community. I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's?What You Don?t Know About the Ultra-Orthodox - Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other articles:?Values and Religiosity?and?Charitable Giving Among Britain's Jews. And see also this page from?The Jewish Mind. With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a genuine problem (and therefore a challenge). I think it is true that fewer sheilos are asked in bein adam lechavero. I agree that both the occurrence and the communal reaction to scandals in bein adam lechavero are telling and disconcerting.? As Rabbi Berger acknowledges, there are different approaches within our mesorah in understanding the place of bein adam lechavero. Which ever approach one takes, there is room for much more serious thought as to how to reduce the gap between values and communal practice. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:09 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:13:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority Message-ID: A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a)remains silent or (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth 1. What percentage of people would take each course? (orthodox vs. non? 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:48:14 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero In-Reply-To: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200128214814.GD29555@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote: > Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the > frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't > simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious > community. > > I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About > the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other > articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's > Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind. > > With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a > genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)... I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest. What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox is at or https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/what-you-dont-know-about-the-ultra-orthodox/ From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:45:28 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128214528.GC29555@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until > that standard is met the duty remains. > > We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to > many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's > the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds > are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts > to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to > succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which > Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal). So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without the help of finding sources. The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the pasuq: Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha velo savo alav cheit. (The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for how you perceive what they did to you.) However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So, the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them into meizidim means you can't do it. But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how. That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty, even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or someone who hears the story will be influenced. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 14:20:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder) only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so we're talking about 1.8 oz. The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk. HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so. Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot. Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with te'imah. Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which "fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is. The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:35:55 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128213555.GA29555@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote: >> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." > One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and > loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. To me shilush refers to the human condition. When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face. Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.) The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3. Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz. Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give. The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others. The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above. Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:53:07 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128215307.GE29555@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony > that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or > (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth ... > 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif they did, the testimony is void? Li nir'eh: We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma. And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 29 11:53:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> References: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200129195327.GD10165@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com When we discussed this topic a decade ago (10-Oct-2009), R/Dr Prof Levine pointed us to a copy he kept of an article by R/Dr Ari Zivotofsky at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf Tir'u baTov! -Micha From sholom at aishdas.org Sun Feb 2 11:43:54 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Which parsha...? Message-ID: <1580762914542.2f7d92c33c16fe9c@aishdas.org> Someone in shul mused to me that parshas Ve'eria sure had a whole lot of mentions of H's name, and was wondering if that parsha had more mentions than any other parsha. I told him: I don't know, but I have some ideas on who/where to ask! Thoughts? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 4 19:14:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 03:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? Message-ID: In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 5 08:04:04 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ce3160-8d3b-c3a9-9e5d-e781c8bd03c7@sero.name> On 4/2/20 10:14 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R?Gil Student wrote about R?C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? According to the Rosh, at least, the minhag of most (nowadays all) Chu"l communities saying tal umatar as if they were in Iraq is mistaken, and he tried his best to change it in Spain, but faced such massive opposition that he gave up and accepted the status quo. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 5 09:57:59 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE Message-ID: This morning while shopping I noted that many types of Arnold's bread now bear on OU DE instead of OU Pareve. The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Q. Is one permitted to bake DE (Dairy Equipment) bread? For example, may one bake bread on a baking pan that was previously used to bake cheese danishes? A. (The OU recently focused on this issue, as a major bread manufacturer certified by the OU requested authorization to produce OU-DE certified bread. Click here to read Rabbi Genack?s extensive teshuva on this topic.) The Pischei Teshuva (YD 97:5) rules that bread baked on dairy equipment may be consumed. He reasons that as follows: Chazal (Pesachim 46a) forbade eating dairy bread as a gezaira (a prohibitive measure), lest one forgets the dairy status of the bread and consumes it with meat. This concern is valid when the bread contains actual dairy ingredients. However, when the bread is baked on dairy equipment, the bread is technically pareve according to the Rama, but as a chumra (an extra stringency), the bread may not be eaten with meat. Bidi?eved (after the fact), the Rama agrees that DE bread mixed with meat may be consumed. The possibility that one might not remember the status of DE bread is much less of a concern than for bread that contains actual dairy, and therefore there is no restriction on consuming DE bread. This reasoning is valid according to the Rama (95:2) who allows DE items mixed with meat bidi?eved. However, the Shach (quoted in a previous Halacha Yomis) rules that pareve items baked or roasted on dairy equipment are fully dairy and may not be consumed with meat even bidi?eved. Accordingly, the Shach would forbid all consumption of DE bread. As previously noted, many poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan (95:12), are not in agreement with the Shach. We will now address the second question about bread baked on a cheese danish pan. Are pans used to bake cheese danish treated as dairy? Interestingly, this depends on how the danish was prepared. If the cheese remained inside the dough, the pan would not have the status of actual dairy, and bread baked on the pan can be eaten with pareve or dairy foods. However, if the cheese leaked out of the danish onto the pan, the Shach would consider the pan to be actual dairy even bidi?eved, and bread baked subsequently would be forbidden. ___________________________________________ Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:41:50 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim Message-ID: Questions from (another) guy in my shul: On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is trying to annul or alleviate. (And either the P"Y, or R Rosner, suggest that perhaps this is why when a crisis is facing the community, we engage in tefilla and/or recitation of tehillim). (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the chiddush in that? Do I need R Eazar to tell me that? Or, perhaps R Elazar is saying: you can do all the ma'asim tovim you want, but without tefilla, it's not going to help? But I digress....) That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. Is there any intersection of thought -- is there any influence or stira -- of R Elazar's statements to this order of words? And why does R Elazar seemingly ignore teshuva? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:43:55 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good place to ask ;-) Thoughts, anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 5 18:59:15 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 02:59:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E809B88-1E18-4EBE-84F2-BA7F5BC94544@Segalco.com> Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. -/?????????? Some context is important. As I understand it for many years the OU Used the DE designation and then changed policy because they thought it was too confusing. This led to a time Where they fielded many questions (maybe unofficially? )about what the D really meant and many people used products as if they were DE. Now apparently they?ve gone back to issuing the DE. I think a consumer awareness campaign would be worthwhile I personally prefer having the DE designation available so that people don?t just decide on their own based on the ingredients. Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:08:01 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206200801.GA20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:43:55AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for > us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did > H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good > place to ask ;-) Well, if you don't take Bereishis 1 as history, or you believe in Omphalism ("the universe was created old, as though it all happened" -- RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements. The universe's size also is an effect of the kind of Inflation and Big Bang we had, or H' made a universe as thought we had. The same thing that set up many other things in physics, and is subject to our laws of physics. Which in turn would mean that to have the physics we do, we would need a universe of a certain size. (Or a universe that was obviously created in a "puff" of neis.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:24:09 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206202409.GB20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:41:50AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, > and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's > talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers > that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is > trying to annul or alleviate... Which fits the context; the gemara is talking about Moshe davening to come to EY. > (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with > tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the > chiddush in that? ... So the Penei Yeoshua tell you to look in the Maharsha and the Mahari Pinto, who ask just your question -- of course T + MT > T. And also, why go to Moshe who excelled at everything, not the clearest maqor for this kind of comparison. The PY only gives his own answer -- obviously the sekhar of MT is greater, as they involve many mitzvos. Even if tefillah is deOraisa, which he notes is unclear. Rather, it is specifically WRT getting out of a gezeira ra'ah. Barukh shekivanta! My reaction: We're talking about Moshe level davening, and it's still not enough without maasim tovim?! The Ben Yehoyada (ad loc) says that the intent is Avos 5:21, "kol hamzakeh es harabim, tekhus harabim talui bo". So the gemara is saying that the tefillah of someone with maasim tovim is greater than the maasim tovim in and of their own zekhuyos. > That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana > Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. And the next line in the gemara is R Elazar saying that taanis is greater than tzedaqah -- because it is done with his body, and tzedaqah is done with his money. Remember the Machzorim that have the words tzom, qol, mamon over teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, and they're all there. Tzom is a maaseh associated with teshuvah. BUT... The next line after that, also R Elazar, says that tefillah is greater that qorbanos. If the gemara were working with teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, this quote wouldn't be here, it breaks the symbolism. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:33:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206203333.GC20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 03:14:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue > I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue > since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were > all holy) There are at least two ways you can ascribe importance to mimetic precedent, whether minhag or accepted pesaq, or any other of the looser usages of the word "minhag": 1- "Im lo neviim heim benei neviim heim" or "she'reis Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" mean that there is siyata diShmaya involved in what Jews end up doing. And thus Retzon haBorei blesses such practices. (In some way that doesn't violate lo bashamayim hi. Just as a poseiq's siyata diShmaya doesn't.) 2- The lack of rabbinic objection shows that generations of rabbanim found textual support for the practice. Which would rule out practices where we have a record of rabbinic protests. I brought up #2 in the early days of Avodah, when R/Dr Meir Shinnar used a mimetic argument to prove that sei'ar be'ishah ervah is das Yehudis and changes with the fashion. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I want to do it." - is weak. Author: Widen Your Tent "I am doing it." - that is the right way. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 05:00:41 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] New Haggada Available Message-ID: A new edition is now available of my "Achieving Immortality - A Haggada for Re-Experiencing the Exodus". My main goal in this Haggada is to avoid anything that would distract us from "seeing ourselves as if we left Egypt ourselves." For example, the peirushim are incorporated into the translation and instructions, rather than being relegated to the bottom of the page. Extensive footnotes for supplementary material are accessible on the bottom of each page, but for the seder itself they are in the back of the book, to be less distracting. It is available online at Lulu.com, where anyone can find it by searching for the title and/or my name. It is available in three bindings: hardcover, paperback, and a coil-bound version (which is my family's favorite because it lies flat with no effort, so yet another distraction is avoided). All three have the exact same 200-page interior. SPECIAL HALF-PRICE pricing for Avodah readers is available if you use these links: Softcover $5.97 at https://tinyurl.com/SoftcoverHaggada Coilbound $7.47 at https://tinyurl.com/CoilboundHaggada Hardcover $12.97 at https://tinyurl.com/HardcoverHaggada (plus tax and shipping, obviously) You can often get it even cheaper! Lulu often (but usually only from Monday to Thursday) offers coupon codes that you can use when you check out and pay. You can go to Lulu.com and look for the popup notice, or you can try the frequently-offered codes LULU10 (for 10% off) or ONEFIVE (for 15% off). If you'd like to see a sample of this Haggada, to better judge how much my style fits yours, you can download a 25-page sample at https://www.dropbox.com/s/eizebhfa5qtfpwo/Haggada%202020%20Excerpts.pdf?dl=0 or https://tinyurl.com/v27cwtt Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 17:41:39 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:41:39 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Joel Rich asked Message-ID: < BL0PR02MB37454F2E5D8D2B1D2559773EBF020 at BL0PR02MB3745.namprd02.prod.outlook.com > Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hankman at bell.net Thu Feb 6 21:01:17 2020 From: hankman at bell.net (hank) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 00:01:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: <20200207050117.JFSZ16482.mtlspm02.bell.net@[IPv6:::ffff:192.168.2.56]> RMB wrote: ?RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements.? That is plausible for stars within our galaxy, but not for the billions of stars in billions of galaxies far outside the milkyway galaxy. Those heavy elements could never reach us in this galaxy. Should we postulate intelligent beings in each of those distant galaxies with their own relationship to G-d for whom their stars supply heavy elements to? Kol tuv, Chaim Manaster Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Fri Feb 7 07:43:50 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/20 8:41 pm, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > > But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the > repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - > one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. 1. As I understand it he succeeded, within his area of influence, and chazarat hashatz disappeared for several centuries, until at least the Radvaz's times. (Though his takana was only for Shacharit/Musaf on Shabbat, and for Mincha only if it was getting late.) 2. More importantly it's not an example of this phenomenon because it was *not* an incorrect minhag. Not even the Rambam claimed it was incorrect. The Rambam simply thought a new problem had arisen, which required a new takanah invoking eit laasot to override this correct minhag. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From meirabi at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 17:37:26 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:37:26 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - Talking During Tefillah, That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Zev Message-ID: suggested that RaMBaM, at least within his area of influence, succeeded in cancelling the Chazoras HaShaTz, and we assume also thereby reduced the talking during Tefillah. However, during the Radvaz's times, Ch HaShaTz was reintroduced which only reinforces the notion that Mistaken Minhagim, even if they can be temporarily abated, cannot be stopped Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinlbrody at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 21:49:16 2020 From: martinlbrody at gmail.com (Martin Brody) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:49:16 -0800 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minchagim.... Message-ID: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Cheers, Martin Brody "Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazze Meir G. Rabi From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Tue Feb 11 01:17:50 2020 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:17:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 10, 2020 02:03:22 pm Message-ID: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Talking during prayer is not a minhag. It is a hanhagah (Hebrew, like every language, has nuanced near-synonyms in matters of importance to its speakers). Jews do not talk during prayer thinking "this is how Jews should conduct themselves", or even "this is how Jews conduct themselves", and those cognitions are part of the definition of the word "minhag". The original poster asked for mistaken minhagim, which originated in the hamon `am, and which were subsequently tolerated by the scholarly class. Talking during prayer is not a mistaken minhag, because it is not a minhag at all. A minhag that satisfies the original poster's question -- as has already been pointed out by another contributor to this mailing list -- is praying for rain, not when you need rain, but when the people of Iraq need rain. Other minhagim that satisfy the original poster's question are wearing costumes on Purim, or not cutting a boy's hair till he is three years old. And there are numerous other idolatrous practices and superstitions that are found among Jews, like tugging your ear after you sneeze, or not walking over a baby, and if you do walk over a baby, then walking backwards over the baby to undo the walking forwards. If you read classic Yiddish literature, you will learn many minhagim regarding sickness which clearly belong to the category of "halloxesh `al hammakkah" but which were nearly universal among the Jews depicted in that literature, and which are not condemned by the Yiddish-speaking scholarly class even now. The practice of not eating kitniyyoth (deliberately left untranslated) on Passover also originated in the hamon `am, and was later ratified, and even codified, by the scholarly class, but I would abolish it if I could, because, inter alia, it makes it more expensive to observe Passover, and God cares about the property of His people. There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An example of this category is the practice of earning a living from teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. An even more odious example is the practice of "kollel", which involves paying people, not even to teach Torah, but just to learn it. This is not only prohibited by Jewish law, but also condemned in the strongest terms; yet the scholarly class have taken a prohibition, and turned it into a commandment, because it benefits them. A third example is draft exemptions for yeshiva students, even though -- as has been pointed out before on this mailing list -- the halakha clearly states that "bmilxemeth mitzva hakkol yotz'im, afilu xathan mixedro vkhallah mixupathah". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:43:23 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minhagim Message-ID: R' Martin Brody wrote: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Rambam's rejection can be distinguished from what we do now. The Rambam also held that we never change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta?am tachton, and so it appears we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with ta?am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, in which case it?s perfectly fine to stand. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:45:42 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah Message-ID: The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he does so here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Feb 11 10:20:47 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58288555-F618-4C81-866B-E853B664DA8C@cox.net> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who consistently stood for the entire leining. I would assume that was their minhag. The other thing I learned that many of my peers did not know and that was the halacha regarding whether you stand for the sh?ma or sit. The answer is if you are already sitting, you remain seated and conversely, if you are already standing, you remain standing. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 11 14:34:55 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should they daven? what else should they do?)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 14 08:25:30 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:25:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I typically eat only cholov Yisrael products. Accidentally, I bought a cereal that is labeled OU-D. I checked with the OU?s Webbe Rebbe (Kosherq at OU.org) and was told the cereal does not contain actual dairy, but it is made on dairy equipment. I opened the box, and I can no longer return it to the store. May I eat the cereal? A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot must be kashered before it is re-used. Nonetheless, there are various positions among poskim regarding food that was cooked in cholov akum pots in our contemporary times. The issue revolves around the current status of commercial milk. It is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l and other contemporary poskim held that the prohibition of cholov akum does not apply to commercial milk which is regulated and monitored by government agencies. Others reject this leniency. Still a third group are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As such, there are the following positions: * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position on commercial milk would obviously have no problem cooking in pots used for cholov stam. (Cholov stam is milk that was not supervised by a mashgiach, but was produced in a dairy that is monitored for purity by government inspectors.) * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a chumrah (stringency). This position is further split into two camps with respect to cholov stam keilim : Some are stringent only regarding actual cholov stam, but are lenient with respect to cholov stam keilim. This was the position of Rav Henkin, zt?l (Teshuvos Ivra 43). Others maintained the same stringency applies to keilim as well. Rav Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan HaLevi 22:5) writes that this was the position of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt?l. Nonetheless, one can argue that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would allow using a cholov stam pot that may have been unused for 24 hours. The basis for this is the Shach (YD 119:20) who writes that if a person has a chumra that his neighbor does not observe, he may still eat food that was cooked in his neighbors pot, so long as the food was not cooked specifically for him (i.e., the food was also cooked for those who are not strict), and it is not known if the pot was used in the past 24 hours. A similar argument can be made to permit the cereal in our original question, since it was already purchased, and it is not known if the equipment was used for dairy in the past 24 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 07:30:09 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] HALF A SHEKEL IS BETTER THAN NONE Message-ID: <29FD8EA8-0052-4B93-ACD1-422064094773@cox.net> As you know, this Shabbos is Shabbos Shekalim as well as Shabbos M'vorchim. I'm reminded of the Hazzan who was chanting the Rosh Chodesh Bentching and was very careful not to repeat words. But he had to fit the melody to the prayer so he sang ".....chayim she parnoso, chayim shel shekalim....." At least the uninformed realized it was Shabbos Shekalim. The Mishna Meg. 3:4 explains in the days of the monarchy, the shekel tax had become a permanent institution, and its proceeds together with other freewill offerings were used to maintain and repair the Temple (ll Kings 12:15-17; 22:3-7). Since the shekel tax was due on the first of Nisan, the Rabbis ordained that this section (30:11-16) be read as an added Torah portion about a month before: on the Shabbos before the new moon of Adar or on Rosh Chodesh itself, if it fell on Shabbos. Because of this added reading the Sabbath has become known as Shabbos Shekalim. (There is also a talmudic treatise called Shekalim). L?havdil, as a side, Christian Scriptures, Matthew 17:27, notes that Peter paid the tax for both himself and his master. The Zionist movement at its first congress (1897) revived the shekel as a common expression of support for Eretz Yisroel. The number of shekel holders became an indication of the strength of political Zionism. There were 165,000 in 1907 and in 1946 there were 2,160,000. In Yalkut Me'am Lo'ez. Sh?mos, Vol.lll, pp. 1068-1069, the question is asked why the sum chosen for expiation was fixed at one-half shekel (30:15). The reason was because Joseph had been sold into Egypt by his brothers for twenty dinars, i.e. five shekels. There being ten brothers, this amounted to a profit of one-half shekel for each. Another explanation: It was expiation for the sin of the golden calf. (Though this sin is told later, in chapter 32, the comment is based on the talmudic principle of Ein mukdam um'uchar baTorah. This same issue is raised in Mishpatim because Ch.24 shifts from the laws, that have been the subject of the Sidrah, back to the Revelation at Sinai. There is a machlokes among the m'forshim regarding when the events in this chapter took place. According to Rashi, the events recorded in verses 1-11 occurred before the Ten Commandments were given. Ramban, Ibn ezra, Rashbam, among others, maintain that these events took place after Israel had received the Ten Commandments and Moses had taught them the laws of the previous 3 chapters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 12:52:19 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 15:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag Message-ID: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> I?m not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until ?Im kesef talve.? And the second week is the second half. I don?t know which haftarah they use for the second week. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 17 20:52:17 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag In-Reply-To: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> References: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200218045217.GA2684@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 03:52:19PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely > a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot > read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until "Im > kesef talve." And the second week is the second half. I don't know which > haftarah they use for the second week. I had always wondered why the standard chapterization of the Seifer haChinukh starts a new parashash there. I was wondering if this was an actual minhag, or just a way to split up the 52 mitzvos that are in Mishpatim to more managable chapters. Now I know! Thanks. The Chinukh was written by R Aharon haLeci in Barcelona in the 13th cent. Although the chapterization may be far later, so I don't know what that says about the scope and evolution of that minhag. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 18 13:51:24 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim Message-ID: Heard in a daf yomi shiur -- R Sholom Rosner was: -- critical of minhag of oleh to not say birkas hatorah on tochacha -- critical of the minhag that women don't make a mezumin when they are three on their own; or, if with 10 men, not answering the mizumin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:23:05 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:23:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:25:46 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers Message-ID: I spent some time looking for commentaries explaining the focus on the donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers. I realize it's probably projection but I came up with two possibilities. The first was that many places the donkey seems to be taking somebody to their destiny (Think avraham Moshe bilaam......)I was thinking when they might've been concerned that they would be unable to fulfill theirs My other thought was that they represented technological extensions Of human ability ( think vcivshuha) And they would be unable to fulfill their human capabilities and be no more than another animal Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at chamor and saw chomer(material world) Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 20 11:11:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200220191100.GA15866@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:23:05AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: > But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? In terms of the tech, we're not close yet, and may never be. To weave a derashah into my explanation of that sentence, the word "binah" can refer to thought in at least two ways: - from "bein", the art of making distinctions -- bein qodesh lekhol, bein or lechoshekh... Being able to characterize this as an A, that as a B, this is spam, this is not spam. And when things are not separated: this A and B share features that would allow them to belong to the same font, whereas that A & B are in another. Finding the limits of sets, to know what to separate. That's what AI is now doing. Using what boils down to a lot of linear algebra to draw lines between sets using known examples of what's in and what's out. That can be obvious in cases of AI reading CT or MRI scans. But that is also how automous vehicles decide when to change lanes, accelerate, or whatnot. There are two sets: a right time and a wrong time. - from "binyan", the art of combining facts. Whether making deductions of the sort you did formally in Geomatry class, or inductions -- figuring out that those sets even exist. There is AI that does binyan-binah. It is very simple, generally just searching the space of possibilities until it hits sueccess (as defined for it). That's not what ML is about, and it's not where we are close to the commercial application. And may never be. Then there is informal thought. Conclusions you can only reach because you not only have a concept of red in your head, but you know what it is like to see red. (Apologies to the color blind for that example.) In terms of hashkafah... I argued that lo bashamayim hee has more to do with whose hands halakhh is in than whose it isn't. A pesaq can only come from someone who (to jump ahead to the end of the statement) "befikha ublivavkha la'asoso". Related to that knowing what red is *like*, knowing what moral is *like* is arguably a fundamental element of what a poseiq brings to the question. And even if that argument fails hashkafically, halachically pro forma a poseiq must be a mentally competent Jewish male adult who you believed has the appropriate knowledge, ability and experience (experiential knowledge?). It's the difference between whether any error would be your aveira beshogeig or your doing the right thing in following a pesaq. (And the the case of a human poseiq, their shogeig.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything. http://www.aishdas.org/asp If you want time, you must make it. Author: Widen Your Tent - Charles Buxton - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From cantorwolberg at cox.net Fri Feb 21 05:54:14 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Purim Twist Message-ID: <810C4798-B74F-40A2-B8AA-1CF357667DF4@cox.net> 1) We're all familiar with the custom and law of making much noise when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the Megilla. The standard answer to why we do it is to drown out his name. I see another reason. We must make a lot of noise against EVIL. Haman, a descendant of Amalek, is evil personified. We cannot be silent in the face of evil. We must yell, shout, and make all the noise we can. (Does this sound timely)? 2) If we were asked the etymology of the word "Megilla," we would say it comes from the word galal, "to roll." The word gelila, "wrapping the Torah" also comes from the same root. I came across a nice midrashic twist. As we know the word "Esther" has as its root "samech, tof, reish" for hidden. Interestingly, Megilla has been explained to have the root giluy, which means "revealed." Hence, we have a major theme for the Megilla -- revealing that which is hidden. From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Feb 21 07:49:15 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: "Rich, Joel" wrote: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article (to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts. In it, he talks about future possibilities. https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/ (PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form already.) It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether the machine-made connections make sense or not. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 11:58:18 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: > There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon > `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned > by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An > example of this category is the practice of earning a living from > teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like the Rambam. There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo. (Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but the Bartenura disagrees apparently.) R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah to make your daily bread? Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original: Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for, and not the learning itself. Thinking out loud: The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod, that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution instead of just "don't take pay". But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that "most". On to a very different topic, same subject line... On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I recall in my youth that there were individuals who > consistently stood for the entire leining. I would > assume that was their minhag. My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian. Amu"sh.) My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk, not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam, and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing for the diberos: > he Rambam also held that we never > change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that > we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears > we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. > My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with > ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, > in which case it's perfectly fine to stand. Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for everything. Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos. Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean a- pesaqim specific to a community b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin c- ... anything else? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:45:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour to chatzos is only bedi'eved. So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:53:40 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224205340.GB9637@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at : chamor and saw chomer(material world) The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they are in charge of their chomer side. Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason" symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me, I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Feb 24 18:58:03 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:58:03 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? --------------------------- At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan KT Joel THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 25 09:00:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200225170034.GI27056@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved or hefsed situations. But I was confused about the first question: >> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, >> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven >> is at the beginning of that time range? On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening > with a minyan The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at haneitz. In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar. Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else is also yotzei. Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.) Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan. The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema (Rambam). Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 26 04:50:01 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply z'rizin makdimin. I'm even tempted to say that it has nothing to do with z'rizin makdimin, and the proof is that the same pasuk is used for two purposes: Shacharis at the very beginning of the day, and also Mincha at the very end. Mechaber 89:1 - "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." Brachos 29b - R' Yochanan said, "It's a mitzva to pray when the sun is red." R' Zeira said, "What's the pasuk? Yira'ucha im shamesh, v'lifnay yare'ach, dor dorim." (Tehillim 72:5) Brachos 29b Rashi - "Yira'ucha im shamesh" - This is Tefilas Yotzer. "V'lifnay yare'ach" - This is Tefilas Mincha. Shabbos 118b Rashi - "V'lifnay yare'ach" - Prior to the light of the moon, while the sun has not yet set. Brachos 29b Steinzaltz - "When the sun is red" - Tefilas Yotzer with Haneitz Hachama, and Tefilas Mincha with Shkias Hachama. Brachos 29b ArtScroll note 11 - These two times (just after sunrise and just prior to sunset) are the most propitious for reciting the morning and afternoon Prayers respectively. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva ( http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24777) which says: "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day to pray - "with sunrise." And optimal time for the Minchah prayer is at the end of the day, as the sun is setting - "before the moon." I believe that the above is true l'halacha, but in the l'maaseh there is a very big difference between Shacharis and Mincha, perhaps explained best by Gemara Brachos 29b, immediately after the line I quoted above. "In the west [Eretz Yisrael] they would curse someone who davens [Mincha] when the sun gets red. Why? Because he might miss the zman." In order words, there is no downside to saying Shacharis at the very earliest time, but there is a very great danger in delaying Mincha to the very latest time. I suspect that this is why discussions about the time for Mincha center on "How early CAN I daven", and not on "When is the BEST time to daven." Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 26 07:10:59 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200226151059.GE3829@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:50am EST, R Akiva Miller wrote: > R' Micha Berger wrote: >> So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. > The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply > z'rizin makdimin... Which is why my post continued. As I noted, the Rambam says it's the sole right time, and everything else is inferior. Why would he say that? Likely the pasuq the machaber quotes: > Mechaber 89:1 -- "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one > should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." And so, I concluded that the main reason is being chosheish for the Rambam's reasoning. But even if your confidence in halachic process is such that you don't need to go beyond the Tur's shitah and minhag yisrael, there is still zerizim maqdimin. But there is more! Because doing anything before minyan is lesse Majeste or borders on it. (Thus we don't eat before davening, uless needed for davening, we don't go in order to greet people...) So, there is more drive for "as early as possible" than most mitzvos. And I think that is why: > Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, > other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva > () which says: > "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day > to pray -- "with sunrise."... I have heard Breslover speakers argue similarly. Kevasiqin is for OT1H chassidim and other benei aliyah who want to follow the beautiful idea in the pasuq in Tehillim, and OTOH for Briskers and the sort who are regularly chosheshim for rejected shitos. But never caught on among those in the middle. (It is also more common among actual vasiqin, as waking up enough before haneitz to catch a minyan kevasiqin is frustratingly common among the more "ancient" among us. That's when my father amu"sh started.) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" -- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From eliturkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 14:17:58 2020 From: eliturkel at gmail.com (Eli Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 00:17:58 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus Message-ID: halkachic cautions in the face of coronavirus https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/02/precautions-in-shul-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus/ -- Eli Turkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 13:31:37 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> References: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200301213137.GA13398@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean > a- pesaqim specific to a community > b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin > c- ... anything else? RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis until marriage. Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes, it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's all post facto. And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost. So there is a (c) for my list c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic. Anyone have a suggestion for (d)? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 14:02:05 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following: > A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) > writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot > must be kashered before it is re-used... > are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but > nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As > such, there are the following positions: > * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be > halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as > non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. > * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient > position on commercial milk would... > * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position > in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a > chumrah... This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's, as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago). But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation. Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify. Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against adulterating his milk. Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS. Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly (YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews. Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all. So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or that of another CY eater.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift. http://www.aishdas.org/asp The purpose of life Author: Widen Your Tent is to give it away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Pablo Picasso From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 15:35:52 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly. For example, I recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold in NY as kosher was actually treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper kashrus standards.. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 15:58:22 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <07ea01d5f025$4c5d3250$e51796f0$@aishdas.org> From: Prof. Levine Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST > At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. > Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for > those who wanted to keep kosher properly... But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened? My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical, since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting pesaq halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Mar 1 20:11:23 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 04:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. -------------------------------------- And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 2 07:30:52 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > following the Peri Chadash against the CS. Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all he does is cite the Radvaz? > So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes > is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or > that of another CY eater.) Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was used with was non-CY milk. If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed up in good faith. But if you hold that it's actually kosher then there's no problem in the first place. And if you're kind of in the middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as snifim lehakel. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 2 13:01:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200302210134.GC3266@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. > Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all > he does is cite the Radvaz? I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse. -Micha From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:34:37 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mezuzah checked Message-ID: From the OU: Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done? A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years (i.e., every 3? years). ......... Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions of their rav when a question would be appropriate. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:57 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot Message-ID: From R'Rimon in Hamizrachi: "In light of the above (me - shtarei hedyotot et al) it would be best if there were no ads at all in our Parshat Hashavua sheets"..... "However it is very difficult to abide by these demands in our times because it's the ads that fund the publication"... "Still it would be worth having clear guidelines" This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." I'd really appreciate a better understanding of the halachic force of this consideration. Oh, and did the publishers of Hamizrachi appreciate the irony of this article appearing in their publication with advertisement which is distributed in many shuls on Shabbat? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 10:59:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self Message-ID: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Experiencing the tzelem Elokim as proof there is an Elokim? See https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/search-soul-john-cottingham-review or http://bit.ly/3czL1aK Snippets / teasers: New Statesman The paradox of an atheist soul Why the idea of a single self only makes sense in a theistic world. By John Gray There are many arguments for theism, most of them not worth rehearsing. ... A different and more interesting approach is to argue that theism is suggested by the fact that we experience ourselves as unified, conscious beings - in other words, as having a soul. Not necessarily an immaterial entity, the soul is the part of us that strives to realise what is best in our nature. We do not come to know the soul through any special revelation. We know it by considering the kind of creature we find ourselves to be - a thinking being inhabiting a life-world that seems to reflect a mind greater than our own. Once we realise we have a soul, theism becomes a credible way of thinking. Such is the approach adopted in this lucid and illuminating book by John Cottingham, professor of the philosophy of religion at University of Roehampton.... Cottingham presents a version of the transcendental argument deployed by the German Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804). A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, it asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are accepted as given. Kant used it to support his belief in a universal moral law and, at points in his writings, the existence of God. As used by Cottingham, its purpose is to refute the Scottish sceptic David Hume (1711-1776), whom Kant described as "having interrupted my dogmatic slumber". In A Treatise of Human Nature (1739), Hume had written that the self is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed one another with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement". If the self is not an autonomous entity but an assemblage of sensations Kant's theistic faith crumbles into dust. Cottingham spells out the connection between theism and the idea of the self: It is a fundamental theistic belief, following the words of Genesis, that human beings are made "in the image" of God; and this is taken to be especially true in virtue of our conscious minds, in virtue of our attributes of intellect and will. Theism thus posits a source of ground of all being that is somehow mind-like: consciousness is taken to be at the heart of reality. The theistic picture tends to be discarded or ignored by the majority of contemporary philosophers, but it seems perverse to dismiss it from consideration should it turn out to fit rather well with certain aspects of reality that cannot in integrity be denied... [such as] the irreducible reality of consciousness. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 11:15:13 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> In a recent post in Torah Musings , R Daniel Mann answers a question about a new practice some have regarding parashas Zakhor. Again, snippets: Question: My shul has always read Parashat Zachor once, with our regular havara (pronunciation). Some people now complain that we do not follow other shuls and read multiple times with different havarot to fulfill the mitzva according to more opinions and to do the mitzva properly for Sephardim. Should we change our minhag? First he brings arguments that one doesn't need correct havara to be yotzei. Whether because the deOraisa doesn't need to be in lashon haqodesh, or perhaps has no specific text, or RMF's (IM OC 3:5) proof from chalitza that havara is not meqev, or that an Ashkenzi who doesn't distinguish between alef and ayin may serve as chazan for Ashkenazim... The latter two arguments saying that "correct havarah" is societal. Still, one might need to have Parashas Zakhor available in many havaros if the community is of people of different eidos. At least as a chumerah. But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... Several (Teshuvot V'hanhagot ibid.; Halichot Shlomo ibid.; Aseh Lecha Rav VI:22) mention hearing of such a new practice and consider it strange. They reject it as being disrespectful to the tzibbur, to the rest of our lainings, and/or to past generations who did not do such things. I would not criticize a minyan that decides to do so anyway (some fine places do), and there are circumstances in which there is a stronger argument (e.g., there is no minyan in the area of other eidot), but it is wrong to criticize the normal minhag for not adopting this innovation. In the early days of the list, I was particularly prone to Brisker chumeros (trying to be yotzei as many shitos as possible) or to chumeros or pesaqim that allow expression of how I understood the mitzvah hashkafically. I think learning a cycle and a fraction of AhS Yomi has toned that down. At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of confidence in the halachic process. As for hashkafically motivated pesaq, that's still with me more. But I think I've gotten to an age where I finally understand the value of continuity as well. (I mentioned before, though, my mother's observation about the family she married in to. My grandfather got to the US too young to be aware of most of his minhagim and therefore ended up acting as per R/Dr Mirsky's shiurim. My father's decades of "the Rav's" (RYBS's) Tues night shiur, and repreatedly took on the implications of those shiurim. And then my own habits. Doing what fits what we learned in shiur last IS the onky continuity my family practice has.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Live as if you were living already for the http://www.aishdas.org/asp second time and as if you had acted the first Author: Widen Your Tent time as wrongly as you are about to act now! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 4 11:36:42 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36.2D.07714.B14006E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:25 PM 3/4/2020, R. Joel Rich wrote: >People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients >listed on the label. > >-------------------------------------- >And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" >KT >Joel Rich Since when to two wrongs make a right? Also one has to keep in mind that in many places everything was made from scratch. My mother-in-law comes from a small town in Hungary. There was essentially no prepared anything. Baking was done at home, meat and chickens were kashered at home, etc. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Mar 6 08:19:30 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: Good stuff from Rav Aviner: http://www.ravaviner.com/2020/03/hilchot-corona.html Some of the questions include: Q: Is one obligated to listen to the instructions of the Ministry of Health regarding Corona? Q: Does one fulfill the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim on the phone? Q: If a person is in quarantine for Corona, what does he do about Davening in a Minyan? Q: Should one refrain from kissing Mezuzot on account of Corona? Q: How could someone get sick with Corona while hearing the Megillah when the Gemara states, "Harm will not befall one on the way to perform a Mitzvah"? Q: What is Hashem trying to teach us with the Corona Virus in the world? and many more -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 17:58:20 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing > practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, > some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different minhagim? -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 18:25:10 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > accepted as given. One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is universal. "Kol echad be`atzmo shi`er", and assumed everyone else must be the same. If that assumption is not true, it can lead to utter confusion, as people debate at cross-purposes, each completely unable to understand the other's arguments. See, for an example, https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like? Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even existed. The debate was resolved by Francis Galton, a fascinating man who among other achievements invented eugenics, the "wisdom of crowds", and standard deviation. Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images. Dr. Berman dubbed this the Typical Mind Fallacy: the human tendency to believe that one's own mental structure can be generalized to apply to everyone else's. -- Zev Sero Have a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:23:48 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: > One should therefore refrain from touching or kissing Mezuzot. < My practice for some time has been to "point to" (essentially, reach towards but not touch) the m'zuzah as I pass (and when I leave my house, to say, "Baruch ata b'vo'echa, uvaruch ata b'tzeisecha"). However, having trouble getting used to a clenched-fist (and hate the dangerous elbow) greeting... :). --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:53:00 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. Very well phrased! I have often felt this way, but was unable to find the words to express it. Thank you. For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Mar 9 07:09:31 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. ----------------------------------- Or a lack of confidence in oneself (or their ability/worthiness to decide)? I often think of R? Schachter comparing the personalities of R? Chaim and the Netziv and wonder if this could be explained on that basis. Enough said? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 11 11:47:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:47:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] NYT Ethicist Message-ID: NYT Ethicist - What would halacha be? Q.I have been struck by a fatal disease, inherited from my father. I have children, who know they have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the disease from me. I have several siblings. One has children of her own. She has so far refused to be tested on the off chance that she, too, has the gene. This means that her children don't know anything about the cause of my disease. There are interventions that could protect any future grandchildren, but her children don't know they are in danger of passing the disease along. I have been tempted to tell my sister's children myself, but I know this would result in a major breach in our relationship (a real loss to me). What is my ethical responsibility here? Name Withheld A. ... The trouble isn't that your sister refuses to be tested. That's her choice. ... The trouble is that she wants to prevent her children from knowing what she already knows. By keeping them in the dark, she's robbing them of the ability to make their own choices. And here's a critical point. Even if they declined to be tested themselves, simply knowing that they're at risk would enable them to protect any children they might have in the future, through "nondisclosure testing." Clinics can conduct pre?implantation embryo screening without sharing the results with the at-risk parent... Preserving your own uncertainty is defensible; putting others in jeopardy is not... As painful as a breach in your relationship with your sister would be, it's clear that your sister's misguided plan is itself weighing heavily on you. Urge her to level with her children about the facts. (She could implore them not to tell her if they are tested and get a positive result.) Were she still to refuse, tell them yourself. KT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:53:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200311205357.GG11689@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 08:58:20PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing >> practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, >> some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... > How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 > kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different > minhagim? Chazal wanted everyone doing the same thing, but rather than mandate one definition of the teru'ah to the exclusion of the others, we all do all three of them. This innovation breaks from everyone doing the same. But more than that... Chazal had the power to pasqen and would have pasqened if they didn't feel this compromise brought more achdus. Being chosheish for shitas Rashi after centuries of no one (or kim'at no one) blew according to shitas Rashi is an unwillingness to pasqen. And an unwillingness to accept that the halachic process can actually say A is right and B wrong. It's questioning the whole concept of pesaq! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:02:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311200248.GD11689@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:45:42AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be > holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six > different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). > > This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he > does so here? Never found an answer, and a month later, I'm giving up. BUT, I liked the Y-mi's explanation at the end of Challah pereq 1 (vilna daf 9b) cited at the SA ad loc by the Gra -- OC 167 s"q 4 . The ten fingers are a reminder of the 10 mitzvos it took to get the bread: 1- Lo sacharosh - Not plowing with a kelaim of animals 2- Bal tizra - Not planting kelaim 3- Bal tachsom - Not muzzling the animals to keep them from eating 4- Leqet 5- Shikhechah 6- Pei'ah 7- Terumah 8- Maaser Rishon 9- Maaser Sheini (or Maaser Ani, depending on the year, though not mentioned in the Y-mi) 10- Challah Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:20:47 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live R Ari Kahn (of Bar Ilan) came out in favor of such readings, the mar'eh meqomos for his shiur are available at https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2020/03/hearing-megillah-over-telephone-or.html AIUI, RAK's primary concern was to reassure people who have no choice, and to make sure questionable cases don't risk spreading disease by showing up. So he really presents the case for only one side. RGS pointed people to R Daniel Z Feldman's (RIETS) older piece (not reflecting this year's she'as hadechaq) in Tradition at https://traditiononline.org/the-virtual-minyain which gives both sides of the story. I tried to lend my megillah to someone so that they could listen to the above-linked reading at YU and read along from a kosher megillah. But, my livingroom is being painted, the bookcase where I keep my megillah was among those boxed up, and someone else beat me to the mitzvah. In Westchester County, NY, Chabad managed to organize leining for 100 quarantined people by having the baal qeriah read on a deck or porch, outside an open door or window. But such arrangements are not available to everyone. I saw on Facebook the following social concern that I thought was interesting and valid enough to share here. https://www.facebook.com/matthew.kritz.9/posts/2899197760173502 R Matthew Nitzanim writes (in part): This is why I fear the live-feed Megillah readings. There is no doubt that it is the most practical solution to ensure more people hear the Megillah, without risking more people catching the virus, and there is arguably halachic grounds to allow the practice (even as the debate continues), especially under these extenuating circumstances. But once virtual readings are normalized, what will Purim look like next year? I'm not too worried about no one showing up for Megillah next year - we all know it's more fun to boo for Haman and show off our costumes with friends around. But what about all those people who are alone, boxed out of society? Will the hospital and the rehab center call the local yeshiva for volunteers to come visit, or will they suffice with arranging a dial-in reading (which will inevitably come to be replaced with a recording for those who can't distinguish)? Will the readers and merry-makers of years past feel less push to pay visits when the mitzvah can be fulfilled electronically? Certainly this change wouldn't happen in just one year, but perhaps we are setting a precedent that will be taken seriously in years to come. Because what's at stake is not merely the obligation to hear the Megillah. What is at stake is the future of community and interpersonal connection in the age of digital media. Performing one of our most communal mitzvot through a screen means radically reimagining the very meaning of community, a process that is already well underway. Among the Orthodox, the study of Torah, traditionally intended to bring people into the same room, is increasingly done via recorded shiurim. Elsewhere in the Jewish world, services are taped and can be watched from home, and you can even find a dial-in Kaddish minyan. And shout out to the various Skype Seudot and Zoom Tishes spreading Purim cheer to the quarantined. Each of these is an exciting way digital communication can be used to better include those would otherwise be left out. But if we aren't careful with the pace of development, we will end up creating tools that, although intended to increase connection and participation, will further distance and disenfranchise those who were already only hoping for a visitor or two, and will be left with nothing but a computer screen. What we are watching is reminiscent of the Conservative Movement's ruling permitting driving on Shabbat -- intended to increase access to communal life, but perhaps in the process weakening the physical proximity that keeps community alive, with only time to tell whether the benefits outweigh the costs. So too with screen talk: appealing as it may be in this moment, down the road, we risk harming the very deep sense of community that held us together in ancient Persia and through the ages to this very day. Maybe this is a moment where we would benefit from Halacha being less accommodating of the present, and more oppositional and countercultural.... So he recommends making a heqer: So be cautious this Purim, not only hygienically, but spiritually too. If I had a say, I would encourage those who are doing the holy work of reading Megillah by livestream for people in quarantine not to say the Brachot, even if they are also reading for themselves, to make clear that this is a sub par, temporary fix, and not necessarily an ideal, long term change. And finally, this nice thought is off topic for the thread, but worth sharing: More importantly, for everyone stuck at home this Purim, please take it upon yourself, once your quarantine is LONG SINCE OVER, to pay a visit to someone who feels alone for more than two weeks at a time. It can be next Purim, or maybe even sooner. Take your experience of being homebound, and allow it to be a springboard for being more aware of the many, many people who would give anything not to be alone, to be greeted by a friendly face with a warm smile, by someone who remembered that it's Purim for them too. More than an ecard, or a phone call, or a Zoom chat, what they really want to see is you. qiyum is suboptimal. -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:28:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202821.GF11689@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving > priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." What the "this" was aside, I didn't think that's why we ignore those priorities. Rather, it ends up never being halakhah lemaaseh even from day one. The mishnah itself says these priorities are "all else being equal". And all else is never equal. The reisha is just one triage factor among many. The problem, thus, isn't abiding, but in deciding which mamzer is enough of a talmid chakham to go ahead of the kohein gadol, or which baal chessed outranks the innate qedushah of a kohein. Or... Lack of ability to assess, not lack of emotional constitution to follow through. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:56:30 2020 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or rimon? On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos > that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic > transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > > From penkap at panix.com Wed Mar 11 18:28:28 2020 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: ? For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" ?And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. ?So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. ?A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers.? The amount of sechel in this comment is almost overwhelming. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 11 21:26:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Perhaps one can add as a snif to "permit" it the Chasam Sofer on Hil' Kidush Levana, citing a case during a cholera epidemic in Cracow, when the rov of the time found a heter to say kidush levana on the 16th night so that people who would not otherwise be able to say it should not get depressed and ch"v endanger themselves. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:58:07 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: On Areivim, the issue was raised that the shuls in Bergen County NJ are now closed, and the question of "house minyanim" was raised too. I have a question about house minyanim that I'd like to discuss. My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. Once that minyan exists, additional people can be in adjoining rooms, provided that they can see and hear. I've often been at house minyanim where fewer people are in the room with the Shliach Tzibur, and the rest are in an adjoining room. The doorway between them is so wide that people don't give it a second thought. It seems to me that even though there is no actual door separating these two rooms, the fact that there's a mezuzah between them might define them as distinct rooms for the halacha of establishing a minyan. I hope I have explained the situation clearly enough. The MB does not seem to specify the width of the doorway in question, nor did I see any distinction between a "doorway" and an "open door". I suppose someone could argue that the problem exists only for standard-width doors which happen to be open at the moment, and that there's no problem for a living room and dining room that happen to have a mezuzah between them. Has anyone see any poskim write about this? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:02:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hand shake Message-ID: Listened to a shiur where the magid shiur said that R'X used to advise job interviewees to use the dead fish handshake, then later advised the iron man handshake until he was told that each of those would not get you a job. Now he advises a firm, quick business-like handshake. May I vent - I heard R'X say these things over the years and always wondered who he had asked about the real world. How many job opportunities were lost?? etc.?? How much of a responsibility does a poseik have to determine "reality"? (Another example - toveiling electronics) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:04:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals Message-ID: Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 18 08:05:11 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> On 18/3/20 3:04 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals > per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in > halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and condiments to make the bread taste better. Sometimes a grain porridge would substitute for the bread, but the essential roles were the same. To us, the bread, if it appears at all, is a condiment or entree to the real food. We don't eat bread with meat, we eat meat with bread. Even with grains, we regard them as a side dish, not as the main part of the course. So in principle the entire basis of hil' bh"n should be reversed. Next: Undoing the whole concept of 7 mashkim, and the principle that the juice of any fruit but grapes and olives is not a mashkeh. Not just in hil' bh"n and shabbos, but also in hil' taharos. (At least in principle, since they're not practical halachos anyway.) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 11:33:16 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: In Avodah V38n19, RAMiller noted: > My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. < But see the latter half of BH 55:14/MB 55:50. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Mar 15 18:42:51 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper _______________________________________________ Areivim mailing list Areivim at lists.aishdas.org http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 19 07:10:49 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 4 amos and Epidimeology Message-ID: <20200319141049.GA17120@aishdas.org> Is it "coincidence" or do you think it's common cause: The recommended distance to be sure we don't breathe on each other is given as 6 feet or 2 m, depending on what the masses being recommended to think in. Which "just happens to be" just around the 4 amos radius used to define a person's space for the sake of davening or acquisitions. (As an ammah is defined by to the Rambam, R Chaim Naeh, and the plaque on the wall found at Chizqiyahu's water tunnel. Not the CI. Would tzadiq gozer veE' meqayeim mean that people need to be be staying farther apart in Bnei Braq to be safe?) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 19 09:23:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> References: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> Message-ID: There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. =================================== He also said (From R' Torcyner translation): And after each prayer, evening and morning, they should recite Tehillim, certain psalms which his honour should select, and then the text of Kel rachum sh'mecha, Aneinu Hashem aneinu, Mi she'anah, and the Y'hi ratzon after Tehillim, mentioning in it the king, may Gd protect him, and his children and nobles and all who live in his land. IMHO the last part is also about the realization that a united community response is required bderech hateva (not each subsegment deciding on its own what to do) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 05:20:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:20:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger by R Herschel Schachter Message-ID: <20200320122008.GA4902@aishdas.org> This is an abornamlly long piece for Facebook, but it's making the rounds there. :-)BBii! -Micha The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger Rav Hershel Schachter Many have the mistaken impression that the Jewish religion places much emphasis on death and respect for the dead; after all, we recite kaddish, yizkor, observe shiva, and yahrzeit, etc. This is a gross misunderstanding. The respect that we show for the dead is a carryover from the respect that we show for the living. The Gemorah (Kesubos 17a, see Shitah Mekubetzes) tells us that whenever there is a conflict between kovod ha'chayim and kovod ha'meisim, kovod ha'chaim takes precedence. When the chevra kadisha brings in the aron at a funeral, everyone stands up. People mistakenly think that we stand up out of respect for the niftar, but in many cases we never stood up for him when he was alive, so why should we stand up for him now that he passed away? The Bartenurah (Mishnayos Bikurim 3:3) explains that we are not standing up out of respect for the niftar but rather out of respect for the members of the chevra kaddisha who are presently involved in the fulfillment of a mitzvah. The respect for the living is based on the premise that all human beings were created b'tzelem Elokim. When the Torah requires us to demonstrate kovod ha'meis, it means that even after the person passed away and no longer has tzelem Elokim, i.e. a neshama, we still have to act respectfully towards the body because it used to have a tzelem Elokim. Of the six hundred and thirteen mitzvos, one of the most important is the mitzvah of v'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem (Yoma 85b). Not only does the halacha require that if there is a sofek sakanah we must violate almost all of the mitzvos in the Torah to save a life, but we are also required to do so even if there is only a s'fek s'feika, a remote possibility(Yoma 85a). The Gemorah (ibid) adds that even if the likelihood is that by violating Shabbos or whatever other aveira we most probably will not be saving anyone's life, we still do not abstain from the action due to that likelihood (rove - majority). When Bnei Yisroel were traveling in the midbar for 40 years, the weather conditions were such that there was a slight sakanah in performing bris milah. Most of the sh'votim did not fulfill the mitzvah except for sheivet Levi[1]. They had an Orthodox rabbi among them, i.e. Moshe Rabbeinu. Why didn't all the shevatim ask him what to about this sofek sakanah? If it is a real sofek sakanah he should not have permitted sheivet Levi to perform the mitzvah despite their pietistic protests, and if the sofek sakanah was so insignificant that it simply should have been dismissed, why didn't he insist that all the shevatim perform the mitzvah of milah? The Gemorah (Yevamos 12b) tells us that the answer is to be found in Tehillim (116:6), "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." Whenever there is a slight sofek sakanah that is nowhere near fifty-fifty[2], the halacha declares that it depends on the attitude of the patient. If the patient whose life is at risk (or the parent of the patient who is responsible for his well-being) is personally not nervous about the danger, then the halacha does not consider it a sofek sakanah; we apply "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." But if the patient whose life is at risk is nervous and concerned about the sofek sakanah, then the halacha requires us to act based on, "V'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem", and the sofek sakanah takes precedence over almost all of the mitzvos of the Torah. Shevet Levi had bitachon, and therefore were not concerned, and therefore for their children it was not considered a sofek sakanah, but with respect to the other shevatim who were concerned it was in fact a sofek sakanah, so every shevet was acting k'din. However, if one individual is not concerned, but the nature of the sakanah is such that everyone is interdependent and the individual who personally is not nervous may possibly spread a disease to others who are concerned about its spread, then the concept of Shomer p'soyim Hashem does not apply. The individual who is not concerned does not have the right to determine for the others who are concerned that there is no sakanah for them. The Rakanti[3] relates that one of Ba'alei Ha'tosfos was deathly sick before Yom Kippur and the doctors warned him that if he fasts he will certainly die but if he eats on Yom Kippur there is a slim chance that he may survive. He decided to fast, and of course he died. All of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos were upset over his decision and felt that he went against the halacha. If a terrorist threatens to kill me unless I violate one of the mitzvos of the Torah, the halacha usually is that pikuach nefesh takes precedence over most of the mitzvos in the Torah. What if an individual wants to put up a fight knowing that he may well lose his life but thinks that by being moser nefesh he will fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem? This matter was a famous dispute amongst the Rishonim. The Rambam's opinion is that one may not volunteer to give up his life al kiddush Hashem when not required by halacha because this is tantamount to suicide[4]. Many other Rishonim disagreed with the Rambam. However, if there is no terrorist pressuring me to violate my religion, but there is merely a dangerous situation of sickness then all of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos agreed with the Rambam that it would not constitute a midas chassidus to ignore the sakanah[5]. In determining what is a sakanah and what is not, the practice of the Tanoim always was to follow the doctors of their generation. Every so often the Rambam would take a stand on a medical issue against what it says in the Gemorah and the Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah #101) explains that the Rambam was a doctor and he did exactly as the Tanoim did, namely, to follow the doctors of his generation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 331:9) also says explicitly that we follow the doctors of our generation even in contradiction to the medicine recommended in the Gemorah. We should certainly do the same as the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and follow the doctors of our generation in determining what is considered a sakanah and what is not considered a sakanah. Some well-meaning individuals have blown out of halachic proportion the significance of tefillah b'tzibur and talmud Torah b'rabim and have opted to ignore the sofek sakanah presented by the corona virus when in conflict with these two most important mitzvos. We live in a generation where many b'nei Torah tend to exaggerate the significance of Torah and tefillah. Although their intention is certainly l'shaim Shomayim, we must all keep in mind that when paskening shailos, one may not rely on an exaggeration. All exaggerations by definition are sheker - a misrepresentation of the truth of the Torah. Rav Chaim Volozhiner signs off quite a few of his teshuvos saying, "Keil Emes, Nosan lanu Toras Emes, u'bilti el ho'emes eineinu - the true God gave us the true Torah, and we only look for the truth." Any exaggeration in the area of Torah and halacha is clearly a misrepresentation of our religion. The commentaries on Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 157) refer to the comments of the Maharshal in his sefer Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kamma 38a) that to misrepresent a law of the Torah constitutes an aveira related to avodah zorah[6] and as such would be subject to the principle of yeihoreig v'al ya'avor. With respect to a sofek sakanah the halacha clearly requires that we go extremely l'chumrah. Especially religious Jews, who know that they are charged with a mission in life, should certainly be extremely machmir on matters of sofek sakanah. Although every word of a poem appears in the dictionary, the poet conveys an idea by putting the words in a certain order. So too, different people can have the same ideas and the same principles, but if you put them in a different arrangement you have changed the whole understanding if each one of the principles[7]. Once you exaggerate the significance of any particular mitzvah, you have misrepresented the whole picture of kol haTorah kula. [1] See Rashi, Devarim 33:9. [2] See Achiezer, volume 1, #23,2. [3] Siman 166; see Teshuvos Dvar Yehoshua, vol. 2 #94 [4] Hilchos Yesodei haTorah, 5:1. [5] See Mishna Berura 328:6. [6] Because we believe that the Torah is a description of the essence of G-d, misrepresenting the Torah is tantamount to misrepresenting G-d Himself [7] Thoughts 1:22, by Blaise Pascal` From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 07:07:03 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Message-ID: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> R R Wolpoe or R Ben Hecht (the blog post gives me mixed signals) posted the following guidelines from R Yaakov Hoffman of the Washington Heights Congregation designed for his congregation. (Not to be confused with R Yair Hoffman of the 5TJT.) http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-rrw-guest-blogger-rabbi-yaakov.html On factor I noticed RYH didn't mention that I saw others did was maintaining your usual davening times. (Assuming we're not talking about kevasiqin as the other option.) :-)BBii! -Micha NishmaBlog Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Friday, 20 March 2020 >From RRW Guest Blogger: Rabbi Yaakov Hoffman Below is a halachic guide I prepared for my shul on how to daven on Shabbos without a minyan, and general halachos one should know that are affected by not being in a shul framework on Shabbos. Feel free to use/adapt for your own shuls. Also, I would be happy to receive any he'aros you may have. Thanks. Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide - One should make an effort to daven Mincha on Friday before plag ha-mincha (this week ~5:50pm). - It is not necessary to recite the full Kabbalat Shabbat as recited in shul; reciting Lecha Dodi, Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat, Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh, and Bameh Madlikin is sufficient. One should recite Lecha Dodi and Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat before sunset (this week ~7:07pm). - Although ordinarily one should daven Maariv after nightfall when praying without a minyan, on Friday evening one may daven after plag (preferably one should wait ~20 minutes after plag). The Shema must be repeated after nightfall (tzeit ha-kochavim, this Friday ~7:42pm). - One may make Kiddush and begin the meal immediately after davening Maariv. If one has not yet begun the meal by tzeit ha-kochavim, one must repeat the Shema before eating. - Those who arise early are strongly encouraged to daven ke-vatikin -- timing one's Shacharit to begin the Amidah at sunrise (this week ~6:56am). - If one is pressed for time (e.g., in order to daven at sunrise, or because one needs to help out at home), one can skip the extra psalms added during Psukei de-Zimra on Shabbat, with the exception of Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat and Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh. - Men should take care to daven Shacharit before the latest time for the Shema (this week ~10am). - After the Amidah of Shacharit, one recites Ashrei and then the Amidah of Musaf, followed by Ein k'Elokeinu, Aleinu, and Shir shel Yom. - It is extremely advisable to read or study the weekly parashah at some point over Shabbat (and to be extra careful about shnayim mikra during the preceding week). - On Shabbat Mevarchim, it is a good idea to remind oneself and one's household about the upcoming Rosh Chodesh (Rosh Chodesh Nisan is Thursday March 26). One does not recite the formal prayer for the upcoming month that is recited in shul. - One should wash for the Shabbat morning meal before midday (this week ~1pm). - One should daven Mincha before eating se`udah shlishit. - Se`udah shlishit should begin before sunset, and may extend as long as one likes. After benching, or after 10 minutes post-sunset (whichever is later), one may not eat or drink anything except water until after Havdalah. - One should not daven Maariv on Saturday night until after Shabbat is over (this week ~7:50pm); preferably, one should not do any melacha before davening Maariv (with atah chonantanu) or making Havdalah. - Baruch Hashem L'Olam is omitted in Maariv when not davening with a minyan. The rest of Maariv, including additions for motza'ei Shabbat, is recited as usual. Veyiten lecha may be recited after Havdalah. Vihi no`am and ve'attah kadosh are omitted on the Saturday night preceding Pesach (and Shavuot, but hopefully we will be back in shul well before then!), but veyiten lecha is still recited. Yaakov Hoffman Rabbi, Washington Heights Congregation[5] www.bridgeshul.com Posted by Rabbi Ben Hecht at 9:08 am From dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk Fri Mar 20 05:02:57 2020 From: dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk (D Rubin) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> References: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 From: Zev Sero > I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so > completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made > hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who > can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and > condiments to make the bread taste better... http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29994 From zev at sero.name Fri Mar 20 08:38:46 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Also omit bracha me'ein sheva, as one does whenever one is not davening with a regularly scheduled minyan. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at Segalco.com Sat Mar 21 11:26:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Interesting-no mention of remembering to dress for shabbat KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From isaac at balb.in Sat Mar 21 04:29:28 2020 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:29:28 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis a vis Lo Sa'amod? 2. Has there been any advice to Mohelim who normally do Metzitza bPeh to cease the practice at this time? 3. Does a Rav have a Chiyuv as Mesader Kiddushin to cease proceedings until there is (in Australia) 4 meters square between people 4. Does a Caterer have a Chiyuv to cease serving food at a Simcha or the like if it too is breaching guidelines? _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ??? From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:35:43 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kshering Metal Sinks Message-ID: . The Chicago CRC has a video on hag'alat keilim at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HSfRG69ho&feature=youtu.be I am curious about two things he said at 6:52-6:59, about kashering a metal sink: 1) "make sure that it's a continuous flow and not to stop in the middle from that pot" 2) "start from the bottom and then you work your way up" Why should it be a continuous flow? What's wrong with pausing the flow, as long as every square millimeter gets hit? And what is the advantage of doing the floor of the sink prior to the walls? Alternatively, what's the downside of kashering the walls first? My totally uneducated guess is that the runoff from the walls would do a "chozer v'niur" on the floor, cancelling the 24-hour wait, whereas if the floor is done first, the runoff from the walls is not sufficiently chometzdik to invalidate the kashering. Am I close? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 24 16:23:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: <20200324232314.GA12402@aishdas.org> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 I see two distinct conversations here: - Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? - Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc... When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria. -Micha IsraelNationalNews.com Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33 A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the presence of the "Zoom" program. The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly people who cannot be physically close to their family members due to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their family through the program. The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the start of the holiday. Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency. "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness, so is the case here," the rabbis wrote. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:29:48 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minor fasts? Message-ID: The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare with other b'al nefesh call outs? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:31:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut Message-ID: A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have failed this test. Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:18:33 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder Message-ID: More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to him? I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps, and we would not want to skip any of them. For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on, and then eating the karpas. But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha, the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately. Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on during the meal. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they arise. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 25 13:40:14 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:40:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:56:23 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325215623.GC14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > > accepted as given. > > One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is > universal.... Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal. > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example ... > Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually > a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't > think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist > that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." > Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of > famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading > scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even > existed. And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population. https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US. https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are non-sighted people. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:37:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> Message-ID: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: > 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching > government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis > a vis Lo Sa'amod? I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera > epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, > davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan > that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to > station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:33:51 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The 5780th Pasuk Message-ID: <20200325213351.GA11104@aishdas.org> There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the corresponding pasuq. So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24: Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov... Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to the year of RMF's petirah. So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28: Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah ve'ein bahem tevunah. Of course, I don't know what to make of that. OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth, 5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim): Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha... >From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at "R Eliyahu Shelomo". This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the 601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo: Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz... (I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es haqeitz.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:40:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? See AhS OC 158:13 , where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not, and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open -- safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:04:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325220433.GD14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote: > On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos >> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic >> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or > rimon? You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit if an esrog is unavailable. If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is complex. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Decisions are complex. Author: Widen Your Tent The Torah is complex. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' Binyamin Hecht From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:19:11 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: <20200325211911.GA6964@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable >> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as >> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the >> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt >> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would >> have failed this test. Thoughts? > He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his > colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, > Achiyah Hashiloni. The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact limits of a relative term. If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim, then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the seeds were there. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 10:40:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m! Message-ID: <20200326174000.GA8153@aishdas.org> Save the date! SAVE THE DATE Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020 1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom! https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598 There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time with a Facebook account, just email me at micha at aishdas.org and ask to be included. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 25 23:15:16 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. --------------------------- For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah KT and stay safe Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:14:21 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger asked: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 > ... > Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi > names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA > systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article. I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this in paragraph Aleph: "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei Ashkenaz. But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other reasons? Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 09:24:16 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >> a vis Lo Sa'amod? > > I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera >> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, >> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan >> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to >> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 12:14:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus Message-ID: <20200326191427.GB19172@aishdas.org> The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't want to post the question, but invited me to. RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that is particularly communicable. As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum number of people necessary. But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to the babies. Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear someone discuss the question? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From crclbas at mail.aol.com Thu Mar 26 13:16:34 2020 From: crclbas at mail.aol.com (BenS) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom seder Message-ID: <202003862i1634.GA18647@aishdas.org> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger wrote: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 ... >> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the >> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly >> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due >> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their >> family through the program. I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak. Ben From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 15:02:56 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >>> a vis Lo Sa'amod? >> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ... > No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In > that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested > that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government > to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it > (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing > them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know > how RAE would answer the question posed here. If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to have the police there to break up any violations? Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 17:01:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, > rather than prevent or break up violations? Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places, including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report* to the authorities a violation of *their* rules. Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not yours. So it's very different from RAE's case. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mgluck at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:45:27 2020 From: mgluck at gmail.com (mgluck at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> References: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <027501d603f2$89d05870$9d710950$@gmail.com> R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... ---- R' MB: I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? --------- IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing doesn't make him tahor either, according to that. KT, MYG From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:40:46 2020 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well > known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa > hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon > Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom > Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many > Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." > > Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei > Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or > whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei > Ashkenaz. > The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the latter option would seem to be correct. > > But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. > The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under those circumstances. > > But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a > regular basis? > Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice. ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less widespread. IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let alone the end of maggid, are minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:06:34 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim Message-ID: . For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating, then do we really have permission to break the fast? Think about that for a moment. If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English, so it's HIS words, not my translation.) <<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>> Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:33:50 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:33:50 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns Message-ID: . When I was younger, the electric urns that we used for hot water on Shabbos were very simple: fill it, plug it in, and there was a valve for taking the water when you needed it. But many of the newer ones have various settings. Mine ( https://www.amazon.com/ProChef-SM300-35-Cup-Water-Shabbostat/dp/B07FK8KTZ6) for example, has three settings, called Regular, Shabbat, and Yom Tov. The manual gives the following explanation of the three settings: > Regular Mode: Keeps the water hot based on the water temperature > Shabbat Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer > Yom Tov Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer and is Halachically permissible to add cold water on Yom Tov Based on that explanation, this is my understanding: In Regular Mode, the thermostat is in full control; when the water gets too cool the heater will turn on until the correct temperature is reached, and then the heater turns off. In Shabbat and Yom Tov modes, the thermostat never responds to the water being too cool. Rather, every so often the timer will turn the heater on, and the thermostat will turn the heater off when the water is hot enough. So what's the difference between Shabbat Mode and Yom Tov mode? If I would use the Shabbat Mode on Yov Tov, is it assur to add water? If I would use the Yom Tov Mode on Shabbat, is there a problem? These are not theoretical questions. If we are still in Chutz Laaretz for this coming Pesach, we'll have a "three day yom tov", and I don't know which setting is preferable. Does anyone else know? Thank you! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Mar 29 10:15:09 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tefillah When Davening Alone Message-ID: Click here to download "Tefillah When Davening Alone" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 30 08:17:44 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:17:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato Message-ID: Please see https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:04 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Announcing Geshem Message-ID: . In Dec 2011, in the thread "Announcing Tal Umatar", I asked why halacha demands such critical announcements for starting and stopping the prayer for Geshem, yet no formal announcements at all for starting and stopping Tal Umatar. I got no response at all. I asked the same question again in Oct 2015, in the thread "Announcing Geshem". This time I did get one response, from R' Micha Berger, who wrote: > Well, it does make sense to me that baqashos have a level of > personalization that we do not find in shevach. I can insert > whatever baqashos I want to add for birkhas hashanim, so things > are more fluid there. > > My question is more your first one -- why must shevach be communal? > Not making up your own adjectives for G-d, I understand; but even > if I were to switch without everyone in the qehillah doing so yet > (because of the lack of announcement), I wouldn't be doing that... His answer seems very similar to what I found in a teshuva from Rav Hershel Schachter, https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950285/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-9-hallel-on-pesach-night-and-tefillas-tal/ released just yesterday, on how we should handle the switchover this coming Pesach, when most of us will have no effective tzibur for the announcement. The brackets are mine, parentheses are Rav Schachter's. > There is a big difference between She'eila (V'sen Tal Umatar > Livracha) and Hazkara (Mashiv Haruach). See what I wrote in > the name of our Rav [Soloveitchik] in MiPeninei HaRav (section > Tefila, number 5), that changing the descriptions of Hashem > (from Mashiv Haruach to Morid Hatal) requires Reshus Hatzibur, > and an individual is not allowed to make changes on his own. So to answer *my* question, Tefilas Geshem and Tefilas Tal are not informational. They don't simply inform us about the change, they *authorize* the change. And that authorization is not needed in Barech Aleinu. And to answer RMB's question, I'd suggest learning that section of MiPeninei HaRav. (Rav Schachter did give his views there about what we should do in our private Musafs this coming yom tov, but I need to learn it a few more times, and understand it better, before I comment on it.) Akiva Miller Stay Home - Save Lives . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:20:34 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] roll your own Message-ID: An oleh one Thursday (hopefully we will be back in shul soon) morning insisted on reading his own aliyah. I was surprised that the gabbai/Rabbi did not waive him off (given the reason individual olim stopped reading was so as not to embarrass others). Is this at all common? KT and Be Well Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:21:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ukimtas Message-ID: When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara(e.g. the gemara really was dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 2 13:37:43 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: >From today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? A. The Steipler Gaon (Orchos Rabbeinu 2:57) writes that one who studies Gemara or any other subject cannot make a siyum unless one understood the subject matter. The learning need not be with great depth. It is enough that one learns the p?shat (simple understanding). Many poskim hold that this is true even if one did not study the Gemara with Rashi or any other commentary. Sefer Ohr L?Tzion (3:12, ha?arah 1) writes that even if one might have missed a few lines here or there, they can still make a siyum. Similarly, he writes that although when one learns Torah one must vocalize every word (or listen to each word from a chavrusa), but if one occasionally learned by reading the words in one?s mind, one may still make a siyum. One can make a siyum even if one learns a short Masechta such as Tamid or Horiyos, and even if it was studied out of order. Rav Elyashiv, zt?l (Doleh Umashkeh, p. 318:3) held that one person must learn the entire Masechta and it cannot be divided up among a group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sat Jan 4 18:20:44 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: That?s a question which I have always wondered about. The way I see it is the same as taking a test and either passing or failing. If you and I take a test and you get 100 and I get a 60 (assuming that is the passing grade), then I have at least passed. Therefore, I see the same as learning. We both can have learned B?rochos and you know it by heart with all of the m?forshim, and I have learned it enough to get a passing grade so therefore I feel I would have the right to make a siyyum. However, I would look upon your siyyum as more noteworthy (however you wish to interpret that). From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 5 10:41:22 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: <0A849E37-7BD7-45AA-9C73-83FC0FE25429@cox.net> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry is Scripture's way of conveying the conviction that the formative age in Israel's history was not a series of haphazard incidents but the fulfillment of God's grand design??" Avraham lived for 175 years Yitzchok for 180 years Ya'akov for 147years. These numbers form an ordered and symmet- rical series: 7 x 5 squared = 175 (Abraham) 5 x 6 squared = 180 (Isaac) 3 x 7 squared = 147 (Jacob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Tue Jan 7 06:53:14 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:53:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] downloads available.. Message-ID: <134f01d5c56a$313b9010$93b2b030$@touchlogic.com> A coffee drinker's guide to Shabbos micro ground coffee / drip coffee / French press / using timer OUD creamer. do you have to wait 6 hrs till using.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/62kukx9q3ybjs4f/A%20coffee%20drinker%27s%20guide%2 0to%20Shabbos.docx?dl=0 2500 quick English psakim from R Shlomo Miller shlita https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 7 14:12:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? Message-ID: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> From a post: On the one hand, a frustrating element of arbitrariness surrounds umbrella use on Shabbos. Why do we act strictly on this issue, which is hotly debated among authorities, while acting leniently on other disputed issues? God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident. On the other hand, like an individual, a community is defined in part by its past. We cannot change how we got to where we are, our communal evolution through history. As halakhah evolves--within boundaries, of course--we cannot turn back the clock without destabilizing the system. Me: ?God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident.? I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening in ch?ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation) ? Your thoughts? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 04:12:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> Message-ID: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 10:12:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > "God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical > accident." I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories > told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening > in ch"ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at > least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation)? Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a factor in choosing which. After all, we allow for G-d's Will including 49 ways letamei and 49 ways letaheir, and letting humans decide which way of approaching the Truth is necessary for the situation we're in. What I am proposing is more limited than Historical School. With no parallel to some travesty like assigning personal or political motives to a ruling. I am saying that the strengths and weaknesses of how the masses are relating to halakhah itself are historical realities halakhah must account for. Also, to be complete although the issue isn't pragmatic any more -- gezeiros. If you do not believe that Chazal saw where practice *happened to* need shoring up at their moment in time, the decision to make a gezeira to avoid one risk and not a different one seems kind of arbitary at times. I have to believe they were responding to which mistakes were actually being made, or at least mistaken attitudes gaining currnecy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:03:38 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200108200338.GA3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 7:12am EST I replied to RJR: > Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu > va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a > factor in choosing which. This reminds me of another question RJR (was it RJR or is my memory playing tricks?) asked years ago about Goedel's Theorem. Halakhah is immune from Goedel's Theorem: Halakhah on the Divrei Elokim Chaim / dialectic level allows for Eilu veEilu. THere is no Law of Contradiciton, A and not-A can both be Torah, so Goedel's proof fails. Halakhah lemaaseh is not a closed formal system, because -- as I am arguing in this thread -- history matters. It's not a clean room exercise detatched from the realia the poseiq and sho'el/alim are living in. More info from the outside can influence the answer. It's not the kind of system math is, so Goedel's proof fails here too. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:10:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200108201057.GB3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 07:14:21AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: >> We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them >> as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, >> it should be done by example. > Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" > (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish > human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner > consistent with the will of HKB"H... In R' Wolbe's essay titled "Frumkeit" (Alei Shur vol II, available at ), he quotes the Alter of Slabodka as saying "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." The frum person is the one who makes sure to have Shabbos guests each week, but whose guests end up feeling much like his tefillin -- an object with which he did a mitzvah. A person acting out of frumkeit doesn't love to love, he loves in order to be a holier person. And ironically, he thereby fails -- because he never develops that Image of the Holy One he was created to become. The person who acts from self-interest, even from the interest of ascending closer to G-d, will not reach Him. (Taken from my blog post at .) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Thus excellence is not an event, Author: Widen Your Tent but a habit. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aristotle From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 9 11:45:06 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 19:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? Message-ID: >From today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? A. If a person owns their home, they are obligated to put mezuzos on the door as soon as they occupy the home (see Gilyon Maharsha YD 286:22). At what point is one considered an occupant? If one moves furniture and other belongings into a home, but has not actually started living in the house, there is a dispute between the poskim whether a mezuzah is required. The Chovas Hadar (13, footnote 10) assumes there is an obligation, while Rabbi Aharon Felder, in Oholei Yeshurun (page 6, fn 69) quotes other poskim who say the mitzvah begins only when one resides in the home. Shulchan Aruch (YD 236:22) rules that if one rents a house or apartment in the Diaspora, the requirement to put up mezuzos begins after 30 days have elapsed ? on the 31st day (the day of the move counts as day one, even if it is only a partial day.) The Derech Chaim disagrees and maintains that if the lease is for more than 30 days, the obligation to post mezuzos begins immediately. Though most poskim agree with the Shulchan Aruch that there is no obligation to post a mezuzah within 30 days under all circumstances, nonetheless the Magen Avrohom suggests that it is permissible to put a mezuzah on the wall during the first thirty days and recite a bracha. By doing so, the opinion of the Derech Chaim will be covered. The Nachalas Tzvi (286:22) objects to the suggestion of the Magen Avrohom and maintains that the bracha cannot be recited before the mitzvah is obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein (YD 1:179) offers a solution that covers all bases. He recommends putting up the mezuzos (to satisfy the opinion of the Derech Chaim) without a bracha (in deference to the Nachalas Tzvi). After 30 days the mezuzos should be removed, or at least slightly pushed, and then a bracha is required. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 10 06:22:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Askara In-Reply-To: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> References: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200110142208.GA29555@aishdas.org> Talmudology is a blog by R Jeremy Brown on science and gemara, following the daf yomi. (His wife is the known author on Torah topics, Dr Erica Brown.) In this installment, for Berakhos 8a (tomorrow's daf) http://www.talmudology.com/jeremybrownmdgmailcom/2020/1/8/berachot-8a-what-is-askera-and-why-does-it-kill-you or http://bit.ly/36EBBHy RJB rules out the usual translation of "askara" as "croup", since even in their day it wasn't likely to be fatal. Instead, he finds that diphtheria, epiglottitis and quincy fit the gemara's description and suggests it was one of those. Adding another suggestion we're discussed here during the omer in years past: R Sheira Gaon (She'iltos 1:1) says "askara" refers to the sicarii, literally: daggers, but the name was given to the dagger-bearing class of Roman soldiers. His context is the death of R' Aqiva's students by askara; he says they died at the Romans' hands. But, to quote Koren's translation of the gemara, minus the word "croup": [Askara] is like a thorn entangled in a wool fleece, which, when pulled out backwards, tears the wool. Some say that [askara] is like ropes at the entrance to the esophagus, which would be nearly impossible to insert and excruciating to remove. I cannot believe R' Sherira Gaon didn't have an answer for the description in this gemara. Maybe askara is an actual illness that in that one story was being used euphemistically? Or maybe the Romans took to shechting or garroting their victims, r"l? :-)BBii! -Micha PS: Below is a very helpful signature quote, for those of us who spend a lot of time "talking" about things online. -- Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every http://www.aishdas.org/asp argument and to always be right. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Nassan of Breslav - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Likutei Tefilos 94:964 From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 05:52:08 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: > Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." < One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 14 08:32:32 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Adopting Outside the Community Message-ID: <20200114163231.GA17990@aishdas.org> In , or https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/politics-current-affairs/2020/01/why-orthodox-jews-have-been-hesitant-to-adopt-outside-their-community-and-why-they-shouldnt-be/ Malka Groden ("a domestic-adoption advocate in the American Jewish community") writes and article titled: Why Orthodox Jews Have Been Hesitant to Adopt Outside Their Community, and Why They Shouldn't Be I am posting to Avodah because I am including her summaries of points made by RMMS (about the duty to raise nitzotzos, including those in non-Jews) and by RYBS (from Family Redeemed about natural vs covenantal parenthood). And afterwood, the thoughts I had on the subject of adopting non-Jews, developing since the days when we did. ... There is, however, one group of American Jews who are indeed marrying young, having children, and building families deeply connected to Jewish communal infrastructure through synagogues, schools, and a broad range of support organizations. That group comprises both the Charedim and the [M]odern Orthodox... In recent decades, indeed, the Orthodox world has become adept at devising arrangements in support of individuals and families going through life's most significant challenges: medical crises, infertility, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, and more. The organization In Shifra's Arms, for example, supports, emotionally, practically, and financially, Jewish women facing unplanned pregnancies; for another example, the Jewish Children's Adoption Network has placed thousands of Jewish babies with special needs in Jewish homes nationwide. But there's the rub: float within Orthodox precincts any suggestion of becoming involved with the issue of foster care and adoption in the larger society, and the initial response will likely be, "But those children aren't Jewish. Why is this a Jewish cause?" ... [The Lubavitcher] Rebbe taught that Jews are tasked with revealing not only their own "divine spark" but also the divine spark that resides within each human being, Jew and non-Jew alike. Thus, among Chabad's initiatives was a campaign to include, at the start of each day in the nation's public schools, a moment of silence during which all children would have an opportunity to contemplate their own purpose and responsibilities. Similarly, the Rebbe pushed for criminal-justice reform--stressing that those incarcerated must be given the chance for rehabilitation so that they too can return to their God-given mission in life--at a time when this issue did not command the broad consensus it enjoys today. Both of these projects, geared simultaneously toward Jews and the broader community, reflected the Rebbe's firmly activist view of the essential worth of each human being. With a proper moral foundation and education, he held, every individual, however highly or humbly situated, has the potential to grow and reveal his or her own divine spark. It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home. Meanwhile, Rabbi Soloveitchik, coming at the issue from his own direction, devoted an entire volume of essays, Family Redeemed, to the theme of family relationships. In one of these essays, he describes two forms of parenthood. The first form, "natural parenthood," is represented by Adam and Eve. The motherhood of Eve is instinctual and all-consuming; her entire being is involved, through the nine months of pregnancy and onward through the physical and biological demands of childbirth and child rearing. For Adam, by contrast, fathering a child makes no biological claims at all; after the child's birth, he is free to act exactly as he did before. With Abraham and Sarah, a new form--"covenantal" or "redeemed" parenthood--is revealed. For the first time, fatherhood demands something of men: Abraham must serve as an educator, molding his children and the next generation. In this mission, Sarah, the redeemed mother, joins him as partner and essential link in the transmission of the covenant. Separate from the biological demands made on her as a mother, motherhood takes on a larger ethical meaning to which she in turn makes a free commitment. At the start of the Jewish people's history, God confers on the first foremother and forefather the chance to move beyond the innate ties of biology and assume a trans-generational mission. ... By learning from the remarkable work done by American Christians, and by actualizing the core Jewish mission through the redemptive power of the Jewish family, American Jews can begin to help bring healing to a generation of children wounded and forgotten. I am not a huge fan of focusing on the need for homes as a motive for adoption. I am afraid of too many children being taken on as chessed projects rather than letting a normal parent-child relationship develop. But let me focus on Avodah material. If someone wants to adopt in order to continue their mimetic line, (along with the joys and the aggravations of parenting -- kind of like gilu bir'adah) the halakhos are simpler and cleaner when adopting a non-Jewish child. The giyur will be al daas beis din, and the parents are apitrupusei beis din. There is actually a halachically recognized tie between parents and adopted child, and the chinukh you provide is a chiyuv. (Not the chiyuv of "veshinantam levanekha", but still, a chiyuv.) That said, I still think aniyei irekha qodmin -- as long as there are Jewish children to be found, in today's climate of Open Adoption the halachic issues are generally resolvable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair: http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while, Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:32:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) Message-ID: My comment on a hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) shiur: imho an example of trying to codify something that is primarily mimetic. 100 shiurim can't take the place of role models who demonstrate how to know when it will be accepted and how time and place define when to dig in your heels on what issues. Also how you evaluate the impact on the individual vs. the community. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:35:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:35:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hedgehog? Message-ID: On R' Gil Perl's hedgehog piece https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ : I would agree that if MO's goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys' rabbeim's question as to why I just didn't put on a black hat ,is that I just don't think it's what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 20th century) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t613k at aol.com Tue Jan 14 22:42:12 2020 From: t613k at aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> In Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1 dated 1/4/2020? >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinksthat the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... <>>> This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against Orthodox Jews for 200 years.? But this accusation is simply not true.? We Orthodox Jews should not internalize the false image that our enemies have of us.? This belief that our enemies are right about us reflects a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.? Since we are all human beings, of course we all have our faults.? But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <>? In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim? --Toby Katzt613k at aol.com ============= ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 15 05:39:53 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <> --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com I would simply say community should be judged by the following ???- Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying.-Ralph Waldo Emerson Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 06:23:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] =?iso-8859-1?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Adam=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200115142357.GA30570@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 06:42:12AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote: >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, >> thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... > > This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against > Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against > Orthodox Jews for 200 years... And the Semag made against us 700 yearts ago, in asei #74. In explaining why, lemaaseh, one does have to return an aveidas aku"m, he writes , tr. mine so see it in the original at the link: I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain and the rest of Goliyos Edom that now that the exile has gone on far too long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of the world and grab onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not commit sin, do not speak lies, and one won't find a false tongue in their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them, the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People] for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesn't plant a kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One, blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves with trickery, who will attach to them? And R Breuer, 69 years ago, wrote "`Glatt Kosher -- Glatt Yoshor" because he felt a need to remind people that the latter is more important than the former (translation via RYL). To give just the closing: We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for "Glatt Kosher" with an equally intensive one for "Glatt Yoshor." This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13): "The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." As for the wonderful things our community does, a couple of theories: While my negative stereotype is truer than RnTK will admit to herself, it is still just a generalization. The number of people running and participating in those gema"chs, bikur cholim, the chevrah.... they don't total anywhere near half of us. Second, there is just being a religious community. Compare ourselves to another Middle or Upper-Middle class religious community. Look at chessed among actual aku"m like the Mormons. And yet we have the Emes! And we have a system that shapes our lives to inclucate that Emes, from what we eat to how we put on our shoes! Third, bein adam lachaveiro also has a BALM aspect, and we do see signs that it is that aspect that drives much of the chessed. Like the numerous articles by BT, singles, people who rely on Shabbos hospitality, who so often leave feeling like they served as an esrog, a cheftza shel mitzvah. The Alter of Slabodka says something related, about the lishmah of BALC (found quoted in Alei Shur vol II, tr. mine): "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning, http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to Author: Widen Your Tent mend." - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Jan 15 05:56:18 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira Message-ID: <006801d5cbab$90687a70$b1396f50$@touchlogic.com> https://lehavin.org/ At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both topics and keyword searches From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Jan 15 11:27:46 2020 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: <6757A82F-25CA-46D9-A1F0-1C001AA62A5B@tenzerlunin.com> I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh, brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore BALC in the face of BALM. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:56 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: R'n TK writes: "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?" R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Indeed, there is the rub. We learn one thing, but how much do we practice? Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters. An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring home to the shabbos table, and what-not. It was a terrific program. (I have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome -- see https://projectderech.org/). My kids, B"H, are still positively effected by that program. I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15 years ago or so (IIRC) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:55:44 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha Message-ID: R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted? But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha will NOT be accepted? Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until that standard is met the duty remains. We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands of sheep, stole this one sheep etc. The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous. In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even though they did not seek his forgiveness? as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct. Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all circumstances to be a Chassid? Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch. One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national history. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 19:00:45 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are > shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many > questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon > harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? Other illustrations: 1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha. And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff. This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus. 3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by self-identifying as "frum". Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And which one isn't given kibudim in shul? 3- Newspaper headlines. Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that impression, although most boys do. And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust. So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know I was the exception. 4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there. And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro. Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are middos seen as an end in themselves? 5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!" That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut the line in and of itself, doesn't work. And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe http://www.aishdas.org/asp you can be certain of improving, Author: Widen Your Tent and that's your own self. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aldous Huxley From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 18:40:35 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tochachah until when? Message-ID: <20200116024035.GA7698@aishdas.org> So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6) who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9 . I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else. So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo? How do these two issues shtim together? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 17 09:42:58 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro In-Reply-To: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> References: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200117174258.GA9251@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: >> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are >> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many >> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon >> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? > Other illustrations: Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was triggered. The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael". There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos) which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment): Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t) See a daf image at https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_36079_73.pdf or http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2864&size=2 It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions, nor even Sefaria (see "No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")! :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 18 16:53:29 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo Message-ID: <20200119005329.GA12632@aishdas.org> Times of Israel or https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-at-shiloh-archaeologist-finds-artifacts-hinting-at-biblical-tabernacle/ As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including in full): Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh Jan. 17 2020 According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio, 33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.) https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/742731340&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true -micha From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 19 12:53:49 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question Message-ID: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 19 08:26:56 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? Message-ID: Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father, and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says -- that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These [...] From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 19 22:20:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? _______________________________________________ IMHO 1. Make sure the ba'al kore gets proper medical treatment 2. clean up any mess 3. if the ba'al kore can't continue, get a substitute Now if the oleh is the one bleeding, it's probably a bigger issue. See S"A O"C 140 KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Jan 20 04:48:53 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200120124853.GB13148@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 03:53:49PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > A colleague asked me the following question and I had > no answer. > If the ba'al kore is reading the Torah and either has a > nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer > to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? RJR focused on the leining. But I saw the question as being more about the kashrus of the Torah with the blood on it. Ink spills, which are actually black, do not invalidate a sefer Torah -- as long as the letters remain intact. Now that I think of it, although I do not remember this case in the AhS -- maybe also as long as the ink itself doesn't look like an inserted letter? Blood that is red or brown could invalidate a letter too. Or so I am deducing from the case of black letters that had gold painted on top of them (eg in an attempt to glorify Hashem's name) -- the gold has to be removed. So it seems you have to see the black ink. But I do not think any of my speculation about added letters would apply. And in any case, it should be cleaned up simply out of respect for the Torah. ---- I also had thoughts about tum'ah. And so I wrote the below. But I don't think the blood in either scenario (nose bleed or paper cut) is tamei even to begin with. Struck me after I wrote it, in comparison to dam niddah. Still, I invested time, and there are things in it that might inform, so I didn't delete. There is a derabbanan to treat a seifer Torah as if it were tamei. This was to prevent a practice that became commonplace, that of storing all the holy things together. But rodents would come to eat the terumah, and naw on any scrolls nearby. But once they told the masses that the seifer Torah is not only tamei, but can be metamai one's hands too much for handling terumah, that ended. However, a seifer Torah cannot really become tamei. All of this is about treating it as though tamei. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, http://www.aishdas.org/asp if only because it offers us the opportunity of Author: Widen Your Tent self-fulfilling prophecy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Arthur C. Clarke From rabbiknopf at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:12:57 2020 From: rabbiknopf at yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> I've read this recent discussion with great interest. Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious community. I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's?What You Don?t Know About the Ultra-Orthodox - Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other articles:?Values and Religiosity?and?Charitable Giving Among Britain's Jews. And see also this page from?The Jewish Mind. With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a genuine problem (and therefore a challenge). I think it is true that fewer sheilos are asked in bein adam lechavero. I agree that both the occurrence and the communal reaction to scandals in bein adam lechavero are telling and disconcerting.? As Rabbi Berger acknowledges, there are different approaches within our mesorah in understanding the place of bein adam lechavero. Which ever approach one takes, there is room for much more serious thought as to how to reduce the gap between values and communal practice. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:09 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:13:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority Message-ID: A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a)remains silent or (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth 1. What percentage of people would take each course? (orthodox vs. non? 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:48:14 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero In-Reply-To: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200128214814.GD29555@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote: > Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the > frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't > simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious > community. > > I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About > the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other > articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's > Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind. > > With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a > genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)... I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest. What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox is at or https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/what-you-dont-know-about-the-ultra-orthodox/ From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:45:28 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128214528.GC29555@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until > that standard is met the duty remains. > > We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to > many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's > the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds > are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts > to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to > succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which > Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal). So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without the help of finding sources. The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the pasuq: Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha velo savo alav cheit. (The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for how you perceive what they did to you.) However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So, the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them into meizidim means you can't do it. But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how. That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty, even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or someone who hears the story will be influenced. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 14:20:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder) only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so we're talking about 1.8 oz. The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk. HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so. Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot. Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with te'imah. Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which "fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is. The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:35:55 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128213555.GA29555@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote: >> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." > One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and > loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. To me shilush refers to the human condition. When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face. Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.) The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3. Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz. Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give. The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others. The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above. Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:53:07 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128215307.GE29555@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony > that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or > (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth ... > 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif they did, the testimony is void? Li nir'eh: We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma. And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 29 11:53:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> References: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200129195327.GD10165@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com When we discussed this topic a decade ago (10-Oct-2009), R/Dr Prof Levine pointed us to a copy he kept of an article by R/Dr Ari Zivotofsky at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf Tir'u baTov! -Micha From sholom at aishdas.org Sun Feb 2 11:43:54 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Which parsha...? Message-ID: <1580762914542.2f7d92c33c16fe9c@aishdas.org> Someone in shul mused to me that parshas Ve'eria sure had a whole lot of mentions of H's name, and was wondering if that parsha had more mentions than any other parsha. I told him: I don't know, but I have some ideas on who/where to ask! Thoughts? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 4 19:14:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 03:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? Message-ID: In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 5 08:04:04 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ce3160-8d3b-c3a9-9e5d-e781c8bd03c7@sero.name> On 4/2/20 10:14 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R?Gil Student wrote about R?C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? According to the Rosh, at least, the minhag of most (nowadays all) Chu"l communities saying tal umatar as if they were in Iraq is mistaken, and he tried his best to change it in Spain, but faced such massive opposition that he gave up and accepted the status quo. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 5 09:57:59 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE Message-ID: This morning while shopping I noted that many types of Arnold's bread now bear on OU DE instead of OU Pareve. The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Q. Is one permitted to bake DE (Dairy Equipment) bread? For example, may one bake bread on a baking pan that was previously used to bake cheese danishes? A. (The OU recently focused on this issue, as a major bread manufacturer certified by the OU requested authorization to produce OU-DE certified bread. Click here to read Rabbi Genack?s extensive teshuva on this topic.) The Pischei Teshuva (YD 97:5) rules that bread baked on dairy equipment may be consumed. He reasons that as follows: Chazal (Pesachim 46a) forbade eating dairy bread as a gezaira (a prohibitive measure), lest one forgets the dairy status of the bread and consumes it with meat. This concern is valid when the bread contains actual dairy ingredients. However, when the bread is baked on dairy equipment, the bread is technically pareve according to the Rama, but as a chumra (an extra stringency), the bread may not be eaten with meat. Bidi?eved (after the fact), the Rama agrees that DE bread mixed with meat may be consumed. The possibility that one might not remember the status of DE bread is much less of a concern than for bread that contains actual dairy, and therefore there is no restriction on consuming DE bread. This reasoning is valid according to the Rama (95:2) who allows DE items mixed with meat bidi?eved. However, the Shach (quoted in a previous Halacha Yomis) rules that pareve items baked or roasted on dairy equipment are fully dairy and may not be consumed with meat even bidi?eved. Accordingly, the Shach would forbid all consumption of DE bread. As previously noted, many poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan (95:12), are not in agreement with the Shach. We will now address the second question about bread baked on a cheese danish pan. Are pans used to bake cheese danish treated as dairy? Interestingly, this depends on how the danish was prepared. If the cheese remained inside the dough, the pan would not have the status of actual dairy, and bread baked on the pan can be eaten with pareve or dairy foods. However, if the cheese leaked out of the danish onto the pan, the Shach would consider the pan to be actual dairy even bidi?eved, and bread baked subsequently would be forbidden. ___________________________________________ Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:41:50 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim Message-ID: Questions from (another) guy in my shul: On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is trying to annul or alleviate. (And either the P"Y, or R Rosner, suggest that perhaps this is why when a crisis is facing the community, we engage in tefilla and/or recitation of tehillim). (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the chiddush in that? Do I need R Eazar to tell me that? Or, perhaps R Elazar is saying: you can do all the ma'asim tovim you want, but without tefilla, it's not going to help? But I digress....) That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. Is there any intersection of thought -- is there any influence or stira -- of R Elazar's statements to this order of words? And why does R Elazar seemingly ignore teshuva? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:43:55 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good place to ask ;-) Thoughts, anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 5 18:59:15 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 02:59:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E809B88-1E18-4EBE-84F2-BA7F5BC94544@Segalco.com> Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. -/?????????? Some context is important. As I understand it for many years the OU Used the DE designation and then changed policy because they thought it was too confusing. This led to a time Where they fielded many questions (maybe unofficially? )about what the D really meant and many people used products as if they were DE. Now apparently they?ve gone back to issuing the DE. I think a consumer awareness campaign would be worthwhile I personally prefer having the DE designation available so that people don?t just decide on their own based on the ingredients. Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:08:01 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206200801.GA20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:43:55AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for > us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did > H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good > place to ask ;-) Well, if you don't take Bereishis 1 as history, or you believe in Omphalism ("the universe was created old, as though it all happened" -- RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements. The universe's size also is an effect of the kind of Inflation and Big Bang we had, or H' made a universe as thought we had. The same thing that set up many other things in physics, and is subject to our laws of physics. Which in turn would mean that to have the physics we do, we would need a universe of a certain size. (Or a universe that was obviously created in a "puff" of neis.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:24:09 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206202409.GB20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:41:50AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, > and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's > talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers > that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is > trying to annul or alleviate... Which fits the context; the gemara is talking about Moshe davening to come to EY. > (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with > tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the > chiddush in that? ... So the Penei Yeoshua tell you to look in the Maharsha and the Mahari Pinto, who ask just your question -- of course T + MT > T. And also, why go to Moshe who excelled at everything, not the clearest maqor for this kind of comparison. The PY only gives his own answer -- obviously the sekhar of MT is greater, as they involve many mitzvos. Even if tefillah is deOraisa, which he notes is unclear. Rather, it is specifically WRT getting out of a gezeira ra'ah. Barukh shekivanta! My reaction: We're talking about Moshe level davening, and it's still not enough without maasim tovim?! The Ben Yehoyada (ad loc) says that the intent is Avos 5:21, "kol hamzakeh es harabim, tekhus harabim talui bo". So the gemara is saying that the tefillah of someone with maasim tovim is greater than the maasim tovim in and of their own zekhuyos. > That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana > Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. And the next line in the gemara is R Elazar saying that taanis is greater than tzedaqah -- because it is done with his body, and tzedaqah is done with his money. Remember the Machzorim that have the words tzom, qol, mamon over teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, and they're all there. Tzom is a maaseh associated with teshuvah. BUT... The next line after that, also R Elazar, says that tefillah is greater that qorbanos. If the gemara were working with teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, this quote wouldn't be here, it breaks the symbolism. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:33:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206203333.GC20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 03:14:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue > I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue > since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were > all holy) There are at least two ways you can ascribe importance to mimetic precedent, whether minhag or accepted pesaq, or any other of the looser usages of the word "minhag": 1- "Im lo neviim heim benei neviim heim" or "she'reis Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" mean that there is siyata diShmaya involved in what Jews end up doing. And thus Retzon haBorei blesses such practices. (In some way that doesn't violate lo bashamayim hi. Just as a poseiq's siyata diShmaya doesn't.) 2- The lack of rabbinic objection shows that generations of rabbanim found textual support for the practice. Which would rule out practices where we have a record of rabbinic protests. I brought up #2 in the early days of Avodah, when R/Dr Meir Shinnar used a mimetic argument to prove that sei'ar be'ishah ervah is das Yehudis and changes with the fashion. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I want to do it." - is weak. Author: Widen Your Tent "I am doing it." - that is the right way. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 05:00:41 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] New Haggada Available Message-ID: A new edition is now available of my "Achieving Immortality - A Haggada for Re-Experiencing the Exodus". My main goal in this Haggada is to avoid anything that would distract us from "seeing ourselves as if we left Egypt ourselves." For example, the peirushim are incorporated into the translation and instructions, rather than being relegated to the bottom of the page. Extensive footnotes for supplementary material are accessible on the bottom of each page, but for the seder itself they are in the back of the book, to be less distracting. It is available online at Lulu.com, where anyone can find it by searching for the title and/or my name. It is available in three bindings: hardcover, paperback, and a coil-bound version (which is my family's favorite because it lies flat with no effort, so yet another distraction is avoided). All three have the exact same 200-page interior. SPECIAL HALF-PRICE pricing for Avodah readers is available if you use these links: Softcover $5.97 at https://tinyurl.com/SoftcoverHaggada Coilbound $7.47 at https://tinyurl.com/CoilboundHaggada Hardcover $12.97 at https://tinyurl.com/HardcoverHaggada (plus tax and shipping, obviously) You can often get it even cheaper! Lulu often (but usually only from Monday to Thursday) offers coupon codes that you can use when you check out and pay. You can go to Lulu.com and look for the popup notice, or you can try the frequently-offered codes LULU10 (for 10% off) or ONEFIVE (for 15% off). If you'd like to see a sample of this Haggada, to better judge how much my style fits yours, you can download a 25-page sample at https://www.dropbox.com/s/eizebhfa5qtfpwo/Haggada%202020%20Excerpts.pdf?dl=0 or https://tinyurl.com/v27cwtt Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 17:41:39 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:41:39 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Joel Rich asked Message-ID: < BL0PR02MB37454F2E5D8D2B1D2559773EBF020 at BL0PR02MB3745.namprd02.prod.outlook.com > Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hankman at bell.net Thu Feb 6 21:01:17 2020 From: hankman at bell.net (hank) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 00:01:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: <20200207050117.JFSZ16482.mtlspm02.bell.net@[IPv6:::ffff:192.168.2.56]> RMB wrote: ?RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements.? That is plausible for stars within our galaxy, but not for the billions of stars in billions of galaxies far outside the milkyway galaxy. Those heavy elements could never reach us in this galaxy. Should we postulate intelligent beings in each of those distant galaxies with their own relationship to G-d for whom their stars supply heavy elements to? Kol tuv, Chaim Manaster Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Fri Feb 7 07:43:50 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/20 8:41 pm, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > > But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the > repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - > one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. 1. As I understand it he succeeded, within his area of influence, and chazarat hashatz disappeared for several centuries, until at least the Radvaz's times. (Though his takana was only for Shacharit/Musaf on Shabbat, and for Mincha only if it was getting late.) 2. More importantly it's not an example of this phenomenon because it was *not* an incorrect minhag. Not even the Rambam claimed it was incorrect. The Rambam simply thought a new problem had arisen, which required a new takanah invoking eit laasot to override this correct minhag. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From meirabi at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 17:37:26 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:37:26 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - Talking During Tefillah, That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Zev Message-ID: suggested that RaMBaM, at least within his area of influence, succeeded in cancelling the Chazoras HaShaTz, and we assume also thereby reduced the talking during Tefillah. However, during the Radvaz's times, Ch HaShaTz was reintroduced which only reinforces the notion that Mistaken Minhagim, even if they can be temporarily abated, cannot be stopped Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinlbrody at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 21:49:16 2020 From: martinlbrody at gmail.com (Martin Brody) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:49:16 -0800 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minchagim.... Message-ID: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Cheers, Martin Brody "Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazze Meir G. Rabi From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Tue Feb 11 01:17:50 2020 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:17:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 10, 2020 02:03:22 pm Message-ID: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Talking during prayer is not a minhag. It is a hanhagah (Hebrew, like every language, has nuanced near-synonyms in matters of importance to its speakers). Jews do not talk during prayer thinking "this is how Jews should conduct themselves", or even "this is how Jews conduct themselves", and those cognitions are part of the definition of the word "minhag". The original poster asked for mistaken minhagim, which originated in the hamon `am, and which were subsequently tolerated by the scholarly class. Talking during prayer is not a mistaken minhag, because it is not a minhag at all. A minhag that satisfies the original poster's question -- as has already been pointed out by another contributor to this mailing list -- is praying for rain, not when you need rain, but when the people of Iraq need rain. Other minhagim that satisfy the original poster's question are wearing costumes on Purim, or not cutting a boy's hair till he is three years old. And there are numerous other idolatrous practices and superstitions that are found among Jews, like tugging your ear after you sneeze, or not walking over a baby, and if you do walk over a baby, then walking backwards over the baby to undo the walking forwards. If you read classic Yiddish literature, you will learn many minhagim regarding sickness which clearly belong to the category of "halloxesh `al hammakkah" but which were nearly universal among the Jews depicted in that literature, and which are not condemned by the Yiddish-speaking scholarly class even now. The practice of not eating kitniyyoth (deliberately left untranslated) on Passover also originated in the hamon `am, and was later ratified, and even codified, by the scholarly class, but I would abolish it if I could, because, inter alia, it makes it more expensive to observe Passover, and God cares about the property of His people. There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An example of this category is the practice of earning a living from teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. An even more odious example is the practice of "kollel", which involves paying people, not even to teach Torah, but just to learn it. This is not only prohibited by Jewish law, but also condemned in the strongest terms; yet the scholarly class have taken a prohibition, and turned it into a commandment, because it benefits them. A third example is draft exemptions for yeshiva students, even though -- as has been pointed out before on this mailing list -- the halakha clearly states that "bmilxemeth mitzva hakkol yotz'im, afilu xathan mixedro vkhallah mixupathah". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:43:23 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minhagim Message-ID: R' Martin Brody wrote: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Rambam's rejection can be distinguished from what we do now. The Rambam also held that we never change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta?am tachton, and so it appears we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with ta?am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, in which case it?s perfectly fine to stand. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:45:42 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah Message-ID: The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he does so here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Feb 11 10:20:47 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58288555-F618-4C81-866B-E853B664DA8C@cox.net> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who consistently stood for the entire leining. I would assume that was their minhag. The other thing I learned that many of my peers did not know and that was the halacha regarding whether you stand for the sh?ma or sit. The answer is if you are already sitting, you remain seated and conversely, if you are already standing, you remain standing. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 11 14:34:55 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should they daven? what else should they do?)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 14 08:25:30 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:25:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I typically eat only cholov Yisrael products. Accidentally, I bought a cereal that is labeled OU-D. I checked with the OU?s Webbe Rebbe (Kosherq at OU.org) and was told the cereal does not contain actual dairy, but it is made on dairy equipment. I opened the box, and I can no longer return it to the store. May I eat the cereal? A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot must be kashered before it is re-used. Nonetheless, there are various positions among poskim regarding food that was cooked in cholov akum pots in our contemporary times. The issue revolves around the current status of commercial milk. It is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l and other contemporary poskim held that the prohibition of cholov akum does not apply to commercial milk which is regulated and monitored by government agencies. Others reject this leniency. Still a third group are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As such, there are the following positions: * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position on commercial milk would obviously have no problem cooking in pots used for cholov stam. (Cholov stam is milk that was not supervised by a mashgiach, but was produced in a dairy that is monitored for purity by government inspectors.) * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a chumrah (stringency). This position is further split into two camps with respect to cholov stam keilim : Some are stringent only regarding actual cholov stam, but are lenient with respect to cholov stam keilim. This was the position of Rav Henkin, zt?l (Teshuvos Ivra 43). Others maintained the same stringency applies to keilim as well. Rav Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan HaLevi 22:5) writes that this was the position of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt?l. Nonetheless, one can argue that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would allow using a cholov stam pot that may have been unused for 24 hours. The basis for this is the Shach (YD 119:20) who writes that if a person has a chumra that his neighbor does not observe, he may still eat food that was cooked in his neighbors pot, so long as the food was not cooked specifically for him (i.e., the food was also cooked for those who are not strict), and it is not known if the pot was used in the past 24 hours. A similar argument can be made to permit the cereal in our original question, since it was already purchased, and it is not known if the equipment was used for dairy in the past 24 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 07:30:09 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] HALF A SHEKEL IS BETTER THAN NONE Message-ID: <29FD8EA8-0052-4B93-ACD1-422064094773@cox.net> As you know, this Shabbos is Shabbos Shekalim as well as Shabbos M'vorchim. I'm reminded of the Hazzan who was chanting the Rosh Chodesh Bentching and was very careful not to repeat words. But he had to fit the melody to the prayer so he sang ".....chayim she parnoso, chayim shel shekalim....." At least the uninformed realized it was Shabbos Shekalim. The Mishna Meg. 3:4 explains in the days of the monarchy, the shekel tax had become a permanent institution, and its proceeds together with other freewill offerings were used to maintain and repair the Temple (ll Kings 12:15-17; 22:3-7). Since the shekel tax was due on the first of Nisan, the Rabbis ordained that this section (30:11-16) be read as an added Torah portion about a month before: on the Shabbos before the new moon of Adar or on Rosh Chodesh itself, if it fell on Shabbos. Because of this added reading the Sabbath has become known as Shabbos Shekalim. (There is also a talmudic treatise called Shekalim). L?havdil, as a side, Christian Scriptures, Matthew 17:27, notes that Peter paid the tax for both himself and his master. The Zionist movement at its first congress (1897) revived the shekel as a common expression of support for Eretz Yisroel. The number of shekel holders became an indication of the strength of political Zionism. There were 165,000 in 1907 and in 1946 there were 2,160,000. In Yalkut Me'am Lo'ez. Sh?mos, Vol.lll, pp. 1068-1069, the question is asked why the sum chosen for expiation was fixed at one-half shekel (30:15). The reason was because Joseph had been sold into Egypt by his brothers for twenty dinars, i.e. five shekels. There being ten brothers, this amounted to a profit of one-half shekel for each. Another explanation: It was expiation for the sin of the golden calf. (Though this sin is told later, in chapter 32, the comment is based on the talmudic principle of Ein mukdam um'uchar baTorah. This same issue is raised in Mishpatim because Ch.24 shifts from the laws, that have been the subject of the Sidrah, back to the Revelation at Sinai. There is a machlokes among the m'forshim regarding when the events in this chapter took place. According to Rashi, the events recorded in verses 1-11 occurred before the Ten Commandments were given. Ramban, Ibn ezra, Rashbam, among others, maintain that these events took place after Israel had received the Ten Commandments and Moses had taught them the laws of the previous 3 chapters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 12:52:19 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 15:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag Message-ID: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> I?m not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until ?Im kesef talve.? And the second week is the second half. I don?t know which haftarah they use for the second week. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 17 20:52:17 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag In-Reply-To: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> References: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200218045217.GA2684@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 03:52:19PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely > a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot > read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until "Im > kesef talve." And the second week is the second half. I don't know which > haftarah they use for the second week. I had always wondered why the standard chapterization of the Seifer haChinukh starts a new parashash there. I was wondering if this was an actual minhag, or just a way to split up the 52 mitzvos that are in Mishpatim to more managable chapters. Now I know! Thanks. The Chinukh was written by R Aharon haLeci in Barcelona in the 13th cent. Although the chapterization may be far later, so I don't know what that says about the scope and evolution of that minhag. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 18 13:51:24 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim Message-ID: Heard in a daf yomi shiur -- R Sholom Rosner was: -- critical of minhag of oleh to not say birkas hatorah on tochacha -- critical of the minhag that women don't make a mezumin when they are three on their own; or, if with 10 men, not answering the mizumin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:23:05 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:23:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:25:46 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers Message-ID: I spent some time looking for commentaries explaining the focus on the donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers. I realize it's probably projection but I came up with two possibilities. The first was that many places the donkey seems to be taking somebody to their destiny (Think avraham Moshe bilaam......)I was thinking when they might've been concerned that they would be unable to fulfill theirs My other thought was that they represented technological extensions Of human ability ( think vcivshuha) And they would be unable to fulfill their human capabilities and be no more than another animal Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at chamor and saw chomer(material world) Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 20 11:11:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200220191100.GA15866@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:23:05AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: > But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? In terms of the tech, we're not close yet, and may never be. To weave a derashah into my explanation of that sentence, the word "binah" can refer to thought in at least two ways: - from "bein", the art of making distinctions -- bein qodesh lekhol, bein or lechoshekh... Being able to characterize this as an A, that as a B, this is spam, this is not spam. And when things are not separated: this A and B share features that would allow them to belong to the same font, whereas that A & B are in another. Finding the limits of sets, to know what to separate. That's what AI is now doing. Using what boils down to a lot of linear algebra to draw lines between sets using known examples of what's in and what's out. That can be obvious in cases of AI reading CT or MRI scans. But that is also how automous vehicles decide when to change lanes, accelerate, or whatnot. There are two sets: a right time and a wrong time. - from "binyan", the art of combining facts. Whether making deductions of the sort you did formally in Geomatry class, or inductions -- figuring out that those sets even exist. There is AI that does binyan-binah. It is very simple, generally just searching the space of possibilities until it hits sueccess (as defined for it). That's not what ML is about, and it's not where we are close to the commercial application. And may never be. Then there is informal thought. Conclusions you can only reach because you not only have a concept of red in your head, but you know what it is like to see red. (Apologies to the color blind for that example.) In terms of hashkafah... I argued that lo bashamayim hee has more to do with whose hands halakhh is in than whose it isn't. A pesaq can only come from someone who (to jump ahead to the end of the statement) "befikha ublivavkha la'asoso". Related to that knowing what red is *like*, knowing what moral is *like* is arguably a fundamental element of what a poseiq brings to the question. And even if that argument fails hashkafically, halachically pro forma a poseiq must be a mentally competent Jewish male adult who you believed has the appropriate knowledge, ability and experience (experiential knowledge?). It's the difference between whether any error would be your aveira beshogeig or your doing the right thing in following a pesaq. (And the the case of a human poseiq, their shogeig.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything. http://www.aishdas.org/asp If you want time, you must make it. Author: Widen Your Tent - Charles Buxton - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From cantorwolberg at cox.net Fri Feb 21 05:54:14 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Purim Twist Message-ID: <810C4798-B74F-40A2-B8AA-1CF357667DF4@cox.net> 1) We're all familiar with the custom and law of making much noise when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the Megilla. The standard answer to why we do it is to drown out his name. I see another reason. We must make a lot of noise against EVIL. Haman, a descendant of Amalek, is evil personified. We cannot be silent in the face of evil. We must yell, shout, and make all the noise we can. (Does this sound timely)? 2) If we were asked the etymology of the word "Megilla," we would say it comes from the word galal, "to roll." The word gelila, "wrapping the Torah" also comes from the same root. I came across a nice midrashic twist. As we know the word "Esther" has as its root "samech, tof, reish" for hidden. Interestingly, Megilla has been explained to have the root giluy, which means "revealed." Hence, we have a major theme for the Megilla -- revealing that which is hidden. From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Feb 21 07:49:15 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: "Rich, Joel" wrote: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article (to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts. In it, he talks about future possibilities. https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/ (PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form already.) It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether the machine-made connections make sense or not. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 11:58:18 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: > There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon > `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned > by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An > example of this category is the practice of earning a living from > teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like the Rambam. There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo. (Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but the Bartenura disagrees apparently.) R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah to make your daily bread? Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original: Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for, and not the learning itself. Thinking out loud: The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod, that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution instead of just "don't take pay". But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that "most". On to a very different topic, same subject line... On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I recall in my youth that there were individuals who > consistently stood for the entire leining. I would > assume that was their minhag. My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian. Amu"sh.) My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk, not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam, and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing for the diberos: > he Rambam also held that we never > change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that > we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears > we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. > My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with > ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, > in which case it's perfectly fine to stand. Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for everything. Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos. Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean a- pesaqim specific to a community b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin c- ... anything else? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:45:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour to chatzos is only bedi'eved. So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:53:40 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224205340.GB9637@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at : chamor and saw chomer(material world) The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they are in charge of their chomer side. Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason" symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me, I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Feb 24 18:58:03 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:58:03 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? --------------------------- At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan KT Joel THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 25 09:00:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200225170034.GI27056@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved or hefsed situations. But I was confused about the first question: >> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, >> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven >> is at the beginning of that time range? On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening > with a minyan The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at haneitz. In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar. Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else is also yotzei. Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.) Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan. The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema (Rambam). Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 26 04:50:01 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply z'rizin makdimin. I'm even tempted to say that it has nothing to do with z'rizin makdimin, and the proof is that the same pasuk is used for two purposes: Shacharis at the very beginning of the day, and also Mincha at the very end. Mechaber 89:1 - "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." Brachos 29b - R' Yochanan said, "It's a mitzva to pray when the sun is red." R' Zeira said, "What's the pasuk? Yira'ucha im shamesh, v'lifnay yare'ach, dor dorim." (Tehillim 72:5) Brachos 29b Rashi - "Yira'ucha im shamesh" - This is Tefilas Yotzer. "V'lifnay yare'ach" - This is Tefilas Mincha. Shabbos 118b Rashi - "V'lifnay yare'ach" - Prior to the light of the moon, while the sun has not yet set. Brachos 29b Steinzaltz - "When the sun is red" - Tefilas Yotzer with Haneitz Hachama, and Tefilas Mincha with Shkias Hachama. Brachos 29b ArtScroll note 11 - These two times (just after sunrise and just prior to sunset) are the most propitious for reciting the morning and afternoon Prayers respectively. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva ( http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24777) which says: "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day to pray - "with sunrise." And optimal time for the Minchah prayer is at the end of the day, as the sun is setting - "before the moon." I believe that the above is true l'halacha, but in the l'maaseh there is a very big difference between Shacharis and Mincha, perhaps explained best by Gemara Brachos 29b, immediately after the line I quoted above. "In the west [Eretz Yisrael] they would curse someone who davens [Mincha] when the sun gets red. Why? Because he might miss the zman." In order words, there is no downside to saying Shacharis at the very earliest time, but there is a very great danger in delaying Mincha to the very latest time. I suspect that this is why discussions about the time for Mincha center on "How early CAN I daven", and not on "When is the BEST time to daven." Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 26 07:10:59 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200226151059.GE3829@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:50am EST, R Akiva Miller wrote: > R' Micha Berger wrote: >> So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. > The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply > z'rizin makdimin... Which is why my post continued. As I noted, the Rambam says it's the sole right time, and everything else is inferior. Why would he say that? Likely the pasuq the machaber quotes: > Mechaber 89:1 -- "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one > should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." And so, I concluded that the main reason is being chosheish for the Rambam's reasoning. But even if your confidence in halachic process is such that you don't need to go beyond the Tur's shitah and minhag yisrael, there is still zerizim maqdimin. But there is more! Because doing anything before minyan is lesse Majeste or borders on it. (Thus we don't eat before davening, uless needed for davening, we don't go in order to greet people...) So, there is more drive for "as early as possible" than most mitzvos. And I think that is why: > Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, > other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva > () which says: > "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day > to pray -- "with sunrise."... I have heard Breslover speakers argue similarly. Kevasiqin is for OT1H chassidim and other benei aliyah who want to follow the beautiful idea in the pasuq in Tehillim, and OTOH for Briskers and the sort who are regularly chosheshim for rejected shitos. But never caught on among those in the middle. (It is also more common among actual vasiqin, as waking up enough before haneitz to catch a minyan kevasiqin is frustratingly common among the more "ancient" among us. That's when my father amu"sh started.) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" -- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From eliturkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 14:17:58 2020 From: eliturkel at gmail.com (Eli Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 00:17:58 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus Message-ID: halkachic cautions in the face of coronavirus https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/02/precautions-in-shul-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus/ -- Eli Turkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 13:31:37 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> References: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200301213137.GA13398@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean > a- pesaqim specific to a community > b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin > c- ... anything else? RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis until marriage. Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes, it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's all post facto. And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost. So there is a (c) for my list c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic. Anyone have a suggestion for (d)? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 14:02:05 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following: > A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) > writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot > must be kashered before it is re-used... > are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but > nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As > such, there are the following positions: > * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be > halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as > non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. > * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient > position on commercial milk would... > * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position > in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a > chumrah... This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's, as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago). But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation. Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify. Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against adulterating his milk. Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS. Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly (YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews. Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all. So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or that of another CY eater.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift. http://www.aishdas.org/asp The purpose of life Author: Widen Your Tent is to give it away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Pablo Picasso From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 15:35:52 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly. For example, I recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold in NY as kosher was actually treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper kashrus standards.. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 15:58:22 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <07ea01d5f025$4c5d3250$e51796f0$@aishdas.org> From: Prof. Levine Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST > At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. > Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for > those who wanted to keep kosher properly... But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened? My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical, since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting pesaq halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Mar 1 20:11:23 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 04:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. -------------------------------------- And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 2 07:30:52 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > following the Peri Chadash against the CS. Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all he does is cite the Radvaz? > So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes > is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or > that of another CY eater.) Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was used with was non-CY milk. If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed up in good faith. But if you hold that it's actually kosher then there's no problem in the first place. And if you're kind of in the middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as snifim lehakel. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 2 13:01:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200302210134.GC3266@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. > Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all > he does is cite the Radvaz? I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse. -Micha From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:34:37 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mezuzah checked Message-ID: From the OU: Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done? A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years (i.e., every 3? years). ......... Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions of their rav when a question would be appropriate. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:57 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot Message-ID: From R'Rimon in Hamizrachi: "In light of the above (me - shtarei hedyotot et al) it would be best if there were no ads at all in our Parshat Hashavua sheets"..... "However it is very difficult to abide by these demands in our times because it's the ads that fund the publication"... "Still it would be worth having clear guidelines" This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." I'd really appreciate a better understanding of the halachic force of this consideration. Oh, and did the publishers of Hamizrachi appreciate the irony of this article appearing in their publication with advertisement which is distributed in many shuls on Shabbat? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 10:59:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self Message-ID: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Experiencing the tzelem Elokim as proof there is an Elokim? See https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/search-soul-john-cottingham-review or http://bit.ly/3czL1aK Snippets / teasers: New Statesman The paradox of an atheist soul Why the idea of a single self only makes sense in a theistic world. By John Gray There are many arguments for theism, most of them not worth rehearsing. ... A different and more interesting approach is to argue that theism is suggested by the fact that we experience ourselves as unified, conscious beings - in other words, as having a soul. Not necessarily an immaterial entity, the soul is the part of us that strives to realise what is best in our nature. We do not come to know the soul through any special revelation. We know it by considering the kind of creature we find ourselves to be - a thinking being inhabiting a life-world that seems to reflect a mind greater than our own. Once we realise we have a soul, theism becomes a credible way of thinking. Such is the approach adopted in this lucid and illuminating book by John Cottingham, professor of the philosophy of religion at University of Roehampton.... Cottingham presents a version of the transcendental argument deployed by the German Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804). A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, it asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are accepted as given. Kant used it to support his belief in a universal moral law and, at points in his writings, the existence of God. As used by Cottingham, its purpose is to refute the Scottish sceptic David Hume (1711-1776), whom Kant described as "having interrupted my dogmatic slumber". In A Treatise of Human Nature (1739), Hume had written that the self is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed one another with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement". If the self is not an autonomous entity but an assemblage of sensations Kant's theistic faith crumbles into dust. Cottingham spells out the connection between theism and the idea of the self: It is a fundamental theistic belief, following the words of Genesis, that human beings are made "in the image" of God; and this is taken to be especially true in virtue of our conscious minds, in virtue of our attributes of intellect and will. Theism thus posits a source of ground of all being that is somehow mind-like: consciousness is taken to be at the heart of reality. The theistic picture tends to be discarded or ignored by the majority of contemporary philosophers, but it seems perverse to dismiss it from consideration should it turn out to fit rather well with certain aspects of reality that cannot in integrity be denied... [such as] the irreducible reality of consciousness. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 11:15:13 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> In a recent post in Torah Musings , R Daniel Mann answers a question about a new practice some have regarding parashas Zakhor. Again, snippets: Question: My shul has always read Parashat Zachor once, with our regular havara (pronunciation). Some people now complain that we do not follow other shuls and read multiple times with different havarot to fulfill the mitzva according to more opinions and to do the mitzva properly for Sephardim. Should we change our minhag? First he brings arguments that one doesn't need correct havara to be yotzei. Whether because the deOraisa doesn't need to be in lashon haqodesh, or perhaps has no specific text, or RMF's (IM OC 3:5) proof from chalitza that havara is not meqev, or that an Ashkenzi who doesn't distinguish between alef and ayin may serve as chazan for Ashkenazim... The latter two arguments saying that "correct havarah" is societal. Still, one might need to have Parashas Zakhor available in many havaros if the community is of people of different eidos. At least as a chumerah. But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... Several (Teshuvot V'hanhagot ibid.; Halichot Shlomo ibid.; Aseh Lecha Rav VI:22) mention hearing of such a new practice and consider it strange. They reject it as being disrespectful to the tzibbur, to the rest of our lainings, and/or to past generations who did not do such things. I would not criticize a minyan that decides to do so anyway (some fine places do), and there are circumstances in which there is a stronger argument (e.g., there is no minyan in the area of other eidot), but it is wrong to criticize the normal minhag for not adopting this innovation. In the early days of the list, I was particularly prone to Brisker chumeros (trying to be yotzei as many shitos as possible) or to chumeros or pesaqim that allow expression of how I understood the mitzvah hashkafically. I think learning a cycle and a fraction of AhS Yomi has toned that down. At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of confidence in the halachic process. As for hashkafically motivated pesaq, that's still with me more. But I think I've gotten to an age where I finally understand the value of continuity as well. (I mentioned before, though, my mother's observation about the family she married in to. My grandfather got to the US too young to be aware of most of his minhagim and therefore ended up acting as per R/Dr Mirsky's shiurim. My father's decades of "the Rav's" (RYBS's) Tues night shiur, and repreatedly took on the implications of those shiurim. And then my own habits. Doing what fits what we learned in shiur last IS the onky continuity my family practice has.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Live as if you were living already for the http://www.aishdas.org/asp second time and as if you had acted the first Author: Widen Your Tent time as wrongly as you are about to act now! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 4 11:36:42 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36.2D.07714.B14006E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:25 PM 3/4/2020, R. Joel Rich wrote: >People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients >listed on the label. > >-------------------------------------- >And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" >KT >Joel Rich Since when to two wrongs make a right? Also one has to keep in mind that in many places everything was made from scratch. My mother-in-law comes from a small town in Hungary. There was essentially no prepared anything. Baking was done at home, meat and chickens were kashered at home, etc. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Mar 6 08:19:30 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: Good stuff from Rav Aviner: http://www.ravaviner.com/2020/03/hilchot-corona.html Some of the questions include: Q: Is one obligated to listen to the instructions of the Ministry of Health regarding Corona? Q: Does one fulfill the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim on the phone? Q: If a person is in quarantine for Corona, what does he do about Davening in a Minyan? Q: Should one refrain from kissing Mezuzot on account of Corona? Q: How could someone get sick with Corona while hearing the Megillah when the Gemara states, "Harm will not befall one on the way to perform a Mitzvah"? Q: What is Hashem trying to teach us with the Corona Virus in the world? and many more -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 17:58:20 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing > practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, > some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different minhagim? -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 18:25:10 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > accepted as given. One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is universal. "Kol echad be`atzmo shi`er", and assumed everyone else must be the same. If that assumption is not true, it can lead to utter confusion, as people debate at cross-purposes, each completely unable to understand the other's arguments. See, for an example, https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like? Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even existed. The debate was resolved by Francis Galton, a fascinating man who among other achievements invented eugenics, the "wisdom of crowds", and standard deviation. Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images. Dr. Berman dubbed this the Typical Mind Fallacy: the human tendency to believe that one's own mental structure can be generalized to apply to everyone else's. -- Zev Sero Have a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:23:48 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: > One should therefore refrain from touching or kissing Mezuzot. < My practice for some time has been to "point to" (essentially, reach towards but not touch) the m'zuzah as I pass (and when I leave my house, to say, "Baruch ata b'vo'echa, uvaruch ata b'tzeisecha"). However, having trouble getting used to a clenched-fist (and hate the dangerous elbow) greeting... :). --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:53:00 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. Very well phrased! I have often felt this way, but was unable to find the words to express it. Thank you. For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Mar 9 07:09:31 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. ----------------------------------- Or a lack of confidence in oneself (or their ability/worthiness to decide)? I often think of R? Schachter comparing the personalities of R? Chaim and the Netziv and wonder if this could be explained on that basis. Enough said? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 11 11:47:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:47:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] NYT Ethicist Message-ID: NYT Ethicist - What would halacha be? Q.I have been struck by a fatal disease, inherited from my father. I have children, who know they have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the disease from me. I have several siblings. One has children of her own. She has so far refused to be tested on the off chance that she, too, has the gene. This means that her children don't know anything about the cause of my disease. There are interventions that could protect any future grandchildren, but her children don't know they are in danger of passing the disease along. I have been tempted to tell my sister's children myself, but I know this would result in a major breach in our relationship (a real loss to me). What is my ethical responsibility here? Name Withheld A. ... The trouble isn't that your sister refuses to be tested. That's her choice. ... The trouble is that she wants to prevent her children from knowing what she already knows. By keeping them in the dark, she's robbing them of the ability to make their own choices. And here's a critical point. Even if they declined to be tested themselves, simply knowing that they're at risk would enable them to protect any children they might have in the future, through "nondisclosure testing." Clinics can conduct pre?implantation embryo screening without sharing the results with the at-risk parent... Preserving your own uncertainty is defensible; putting others in jeopardy is not... As painful as a breach in your relationship with your sister would be, it's clear that your sister's misguided plan is itself weighing heavily on you. Urge her to level with her children about the facts. (She could implore them not to tell her if they are tested and get a positive result.) Were she still to refuse, tell them yourself. KT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:53:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200311205357.GG11689@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 08:58:20PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing >> practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, >> some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... > How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 > kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different > minhagim? Chazal wanted everyone doing the same thing, but rather than mandate one definition of the teru'ah to the exclusion of the others, we all do all three of them. This innovation breaks from everyone doing the same. But more than that... Chazal had the power to pasqen and would have pasqened if they didn't feel this compromise brought more achdus. Being chosheish for shitas Rashi after centuries of no one (or kim'at no one) blew according to shitas Rashi is an unwillingness to pasqen. And an unwillingness to accept that the halachic process can actually say A is right and B wrong. It's questioning the whole concept of pesaq! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:02:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311200248.GD11689@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:45:42AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be > holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six > different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). > > This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he > does so here? Never found an answer, and a month later, I'm giving up. BUT, I liked the Y-mi's explanation at the end of Challah pereq 1 (vilna daf 9b) cited at the SA ad loc by the Gra -- OC 167 s"q 4 . The ten fingers are a reminder of the 10 mitzvos it took to get the bread: 1- Lo sacharosh - Not plowing with a kelaim of animals 2- Bal tizra - Not planting kelaim 3- Bal tachsom - Not muzzling the animals to keep them from eating 4- Leqet 5- Shikhechah 6- Pei'ah 7- Terumah 8- Maaser Rishon 9- Maaser Sheini (or Maaser Ani, depending on the year, though not mentioned in the Y-mi) 10- Challah Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:20:47 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live R Ari Kahn (of Bar Ilan) came out in favor of such readings, the mar'eh meqomos for his shiur are available at https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2020/03/hearing-megillah-over-telephone-or.html AIUI, RAK's primary concern was to reassure people who have no choice, and to make sure questionable cases don't risk spreading disease by showing up. So he really presents the case for only one side. RGS pointed people to R Daniel Z Feldman's (RIETS) older piece (not reflecting this year's she'as hadechaq) in Tradition at https://traditiononline.org/the-virtual-minyain which gives both sides of the story. I tried to lend my megillah to someone so that they could listen to the above-linked reading at YU and read along from a kosher megillah. But, my livingroom is being painted, the bookcase where I keep my megillah was among those boxed up, and someone else beat me to the mitzvah. In Westchester County, NY, Chabad managed to organize leining for 100 quarantined people by having the baal qeriah read on a deck or porch, outside an open door or window. But such arrangements are not available to everyone. I saw on Facebook the following social concern that I thought was interesting and valid enough to share here. https://www.facebook.com/matthew.kritz.9/posts/2899197760173502 R Matthew Nitzanim writes (in part): This is why I fear the live-feed Megillah readings. There is no doubt that it is the most practical solution to ensure more people hear the Megillah, without risking more people catching the virus, and there is arguably halachic grounds to allow the practice (even as the debate continues), especially under these extenuating circumstances. But once virtual readings are normalized, what will Purim look like next year? I'm not too worried about no one showing up for Megillah next year - we all know it's more fun to boo for Haman and show off our costumes with friends around. But what about all those people who are alone, boxed out of society? Will the hospital and the rehab center call the local yeshiva for volunteers to come visit, or will they suffice with arranging a dial-in reading (which will inevitably come to be replaced with a recording for those who can't distinguish)? Will the readers and merry-makers of years past feel less push to pay visits when the mitzvah can be fulfilled electronically? Certainly this change wouldn't happen in just one year, but perhaps we are setting a precedent that will be taken seriously in years to come. Because what's at stake is not merely the obligation to hear the Megillah. What is at stake is the future of community and interpersonal connection in the age of digital media. Performing one of our most communal mitzvot through a screen means radically reimagining the very meaning of community, a process that is already well underway. Among the Orthodox, the study of Torah, traditionally intended to bring people into the same room, is increasingly done via recorded shiurim. Elsewhere in the Jewish world, services are taped and can be watched from home, and you can even find a dial-in Kaddish minyan. And shout out to the various Skype Seudot and Zoom Tishes spreading Purim cheer to the quarantined. Each of these is an exciting way digital communication can be used to better include those would otherwise be left out. But if we aren't careful with the pace of development, we will end up creating tools that, although intended to increase connection and participation, will further distance and disenfranchise those who were already only hoping for a visitor or two, and will be left with nothing but a computer screen. What we are watching is reminiscent of the Conservative Movement's ruling permitting driving on Shabbat -- intended to increase access to communal life, but perhaps in the process weakening the physical proximity that keeps community alive, with only time to tell whether the benefits outweigh the costs. So too with screen talk: appealing as it may be in this moment, down the road, we risk harming the very deep sense of community that held us together in ancient Persia and through the ages to this very day. Maybe this is a moment where we would benefit from Halacha being less accommodating of the present, and more oppositional and countercultural.... So he recommends making a heqer: So be cautious this Purim, not only hygienically, but spiritually too. If I had a say, I would encourage those who are doing the holy work of reading Megillah by livestream for people in quarantine not to say the Brachot, even if they are also reading for themselves, to make clear that this is a sub par, temporary fix, and not necessarily an ideal, long term change. And finally, this nice thought is off topic for the thread, but worth sharing: More importantly, for everyone stuck at home this Purim, please take it upon yourself, once your quarantine is LONG SINCE OVER, to pay a visit to someone who feels alone for more than two weeks at a time. It can be next Purim, or maybe even sooner. Take your experience of being homebound, and allow it to be a springboard for being more aware of the many, many people who would give anything not to be alone, to be greeted by a friendly face with a warm smile, by someone who remembered that it's Purim for them too. More than an ecard, or a phone call, or a Zoom chat, what they really want to see is you. qiyum is suboptimal. -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:28:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202821.GF11689@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving > priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." What the "this" was aside, I didn't think that's why we ignore those priorities. Rather, it ends up never being halakhah lemaaseh even from day one. The mishnah itself says these priorities are "all else being equal". And all else is never equal. The reisha is just one triage factor among many. The problem, thus, isn't abiding, but in deciding which mamzer is enough of a talmid chakham to go ahead of the kohein gadol, or which baal chessed outranks the innate qedushah of a kohein. Or... Lack of ability to assess, not lack of emotional constitution to follow through. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:56:30 2020 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or rimon? On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos > that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic > transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > > From penkap at panix.com Wed Mar 11 18:28:28 2020 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: ? For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" ?And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. ?So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. ?A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers.? The amount of sechel in this comment is almost overwhelming. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 11 21:26:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Perhaps one can add as a snif to "permit" it the Chasam Sofer on Hil' Kidush Levana, citing a case during a cholera epidemic in Cracow, when the rov of the time found a heter to say kidush levana on the 16th night so that people who would not otherwise be able to say it should not get depressed and ch"v endanger themselves. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:58:07 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: On Areivim, the issue was raised that the shuls in Bergen County NJ are now closed, and the question of "house minyanim" was raised too. I have a question about house minyanim that I'd like to discuss. My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. Once that minyan exists, additional people can be in adjoining rooms, provided that they can see and hear. I've often been at house minyanim where fewer people are in the room with the Shliach Tzibur, and the rest are in an adjoining room. The doorway between them is so wide that people don't give it a second thought. It seems to me that even though there is no actual door separating these two rooms, the fact that there's a mezuzah between them might define them as distinct rooms for the halacha of establishing a minyan. I hope I have explained the situation clearly enough. The MB does not seem to specify the width of the doorway in question, nor did I see any distinction between a "doorway" and an "open door". I suppose someone could argue that the problem exists only for standard-width doors which happen to be open at the moment, and that there's no problem for a living room and dining room that happen to have a mezuzah between them. Has anyone see any poskim write about this? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:02:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hand shake Message-ID: Listened to a shiur where the magid shiur said that R'X used to advise job interviewees to use the dead fish handshake, then later advised the iron man handshake until he was told that each of those would not get you a job. Now he advises a firm, quick business-like handshake. May I vent - I heard R'X say these things over the years and always wondered who he had asked about the real world. How many job opportunities were lost?? etc.?? How much of a responsibility does a poseik have to determine "reality"? (Another example - toveiling electronics) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:04:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals Message-ID: Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 18 08:05:11 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> On 18/3/20 3:04 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals > per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in > halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and condiments to make the bread taste better. Sometimes a grain porridge would substitute for the bread, but the essential roles were the same. To us, the bread, if it appears at all, is a condiment or entree to the real food. We don't eat bread with meat, we eat meat with bread. Even with grains, we regard them as a side dish, not as the main part of the course. So in principle the entire basis of hil' bh"n should be reversed. Next: Undoing the whole concept of 7 mashkim, and the principle that the juice of any fruit but grapes and olives is not a mashkeh. Not just in hil' bh"n and shabbos, but also in hil' taharos. (At least in principle, since they're not practical halachos anyway.) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 11:33:16 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: In Avodah V38n19, RAMiller noted: > My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. < But see the latter half of BH 55:14/MB 55:50. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Mar 15 18:42:51 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper _______________________________________________ Areivim mailing list Areivim at lists.aishdas.org http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 19 07:10:49 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 4 amos and Epidimeology Message-ID: <20200319141049.GA17120@aishdas.org> Is it "coincidence" or do you think it's common cause: The recommended distance to be sure we don't breathe on each other is given as 6 feet or 2 m, depending on what the masses being recommended to think in. Which "just happens to be" just around the 4 amos radius used to define a person's space for the sake of davening or acquisitions. (As an ammah is defined by to the Rambam, R Chaim Naeh, and the plaque on the wall found at Chizqiyahu's water tunnel. Not the CI. Would tzadiq gozer veE' meqayeim mean that people need to be be staying farther apart in Bnei Braq to be safe?) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 19 09:23:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> References: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> Message-ID: There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. =================================== He also said (From R' Torcyner translation): And after each prayer, evening and morning, they should recite Tehillim, certain psalms which his honour should select, and then the text of Kel rachum sh'mecha, Aneinu Hashem aneinu, Mi she'anah, and the Y'hi ratzon after Tehillim, mentioning in it the king, may Gd protect him, and his children and nobles and all who live in his land. IMHO the last part is also about the realization that a united community response is required bderech hateva (not each subsegment deciding on its own what to do) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 05:20:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:20:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger by R Herschel Schachter Message-ID: <20200320122008.GA4902@aishdas.org> This is an abornamlly long piece for Facebook, but it's making the rounds there. :-)BBii! -Micha The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger Rav Hershel Schachter Many have the mistaken impression that the Jewish religion places much emphasis on death and respect for the dead; after all, we recite kaddish, yizkor, observe shiva, and yahrzeit, etc. This is a gross misunderstanding. The respect that we show for the dead is a carryover from the respect that we show for the living. The Gemorah (Kesubos 17a, see Shitah Mekubetzes) tells us that whenever there is a conflict between kovod ha'chayim and kovod ha'meisim, kovod ha'chaim takes precedence. When the chevra kadisha brings in the aron at a funeral, everyone stands up. People mistakenly think that we stand up out of respect for the niftar, but in many cases we never stood up for him when he was alive, so why should we stand up for him now that he passed away? The Bartenurah (Mishnayos Bikurim 3:3) explains that we are not standing up out of respect for the niftar but rather out of respect for the members of the chevra kaddisha who are presently involved in the fulfillment of a mitzvah. The respect for the living is based on the premise that all human beings were created b'tzelem Elokim. When the Torah requires us to demonstrate kovod ha'meis, it means that even after the person passed away and no longer has tzelem Elokim, i.e. a neshama, we still have to act respectfully towards the body because it used to have a tzelem Elokim. Of the six hundred and thirteen mitzvos, one of the most important is the mitzvah of v'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem (Yoma 85b). Not only does the halacha require that if there is a sofek sakanah we must violate almost all of the mitzvos in the Torah to save a life, but we are also required to do so even if there is only a s'fek s'feika, a remote possibility(Yoma 85a). The Gemorah (ibid) adds that even if the likelihood is that by violating Shabbos or whatever other aveira we most probably will not be saving anyone's life, we still do not abstain from the action due to that likelihood (rove - majority). When Bnei Yisroel were traveling in the midbar for 40 years, the weather conditions were such that there was a slight sakanah in performing bris milah. Most of the sh'votim did not fulfill the mitzvah except for sheivet Levi[1]. They had an Orthodox rabbi among them, i.e. Moshe Rabbeinu. Why didn't all the shevatim ask him what to about this sofek sakanah? If it is a real sofek sakanah he should not have permitted sheivet Levi to perform the mitzvah despite their pietistic protests, and if the sofek sakanah was so insignificant that it simply should have been dismissed, why didn't he insist that all the shevatim perform the mitzvah of milah? The Gemorah (Yevamos 12b) tells us that the answer is to be found in Tehillim (116:6), "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." Whenever there is a slight sofek sakanah that is nowhere near fifty-fifty[2], the halacha declares that it depends on the attitude of the patient. If the patient whose life is at risk (or the parent of the patient who is responsible for his well-being) is personally not nervous about the danger, then the halacha does not consider it a sofek sakanah; we apply "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." But if the patient whose life is at risk is nervous and concerned about the sofek sakanah, then the halacha requires us to act based on, "V'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem", and the sofek sakanah takes precedence over almost all of the mitzvos of the Torah. Shevet Levi had bitachon, and therefore were not concerned, and therefore for their children it was not considered a sofek sakanah, but with respect to the other shevatim who were concerned it was in fact a sofek sakanah, so every shevet was acting k'din. However, if one individual is not concerned, but the nature of the sakanah is such that everyone is interdependent and the individual who personally is not nervous may possibly spread a disease to others who are concerned about its spread, then the concept of Shomer p'soyim Hashem does not apply. The individual who is not concerned does not have the right to determine for the others who are concerned that there is no sakanah for them. The Rakanti[3] relates that one of Ba'alei Ha'tosfos was deathly sick before Yom Kippur and the doctors warned him that if he fasts he will certainly die but if he eats on Yom Kippur there is a slim chance that he may survive. He decided to fast, and of course he died. All of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos were upset over his decision and felt that he went against the halacha. If a terrorist threatens to kill me unless I violate one of the mitzvos of the Torah, the halacha usually is that pikuach nefesh takes precedence over most of the mitzvos in the Torah. What if an individual wants to put up a fight knowing that he may well lose his life but thinks that by being moser nefesh he will fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem? This matter was a famous dispute amongst the Rishonim. The Rambam's opinion is that one may not volunteer to give up his life al kiddush Hashem when not required by halacha because this is tantamount to suicide[4]. Many other Rishonim disagreed with the Rambam. However, if there is no terrorist pressuring me to violate my religion, but there is merely a dangerous situation of sickness then all of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos agreed with the Rambam that it would not constitute a midas chassidus to ignore the sakanah[5]. In determining what is a sakanah and what is not, the practice of the Tanoim always was to follow the doctors of their generation. Every so often the Rambam would take a stand on a medical issue against what it says in the Gemorah and the Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah #101) explains that the Rambam was a doctor and he did exactly as the Tanoim did, namely, to follow the doctors of his generation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 331:9) also says explicitly that we follow the doctors of our generation even in contradiction to the medicine recommended in the Gemorah. We should certainly do the same as the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and follow the doctors of our generation in determining what is considered a sakanah and what is not considered a sakanah. Some well-meaning individuals have blown out of halachic proportion the significance of tefillah b'tzibur and talmud Torah b'rabim and have opted to ignore the sofek sakanah presented by the corona virus when in conflict with these two most important mitzvos. We live in a generation where many b'nei Torah tend to exaggerate the significance of Torah and tefillah. Although their intention is certainly l'shaim Shomayim, we must all keep in mind that when paskening shailos, one may not rely on an exaggeration. All exaggerations by definition are sheker - a misrepresentation of the truth of the Torah. Rav Chaim Volozhiner signs off quite a few of his teshuvos saying, "Keil Emes, Nosan lanu Toras Emes, u'bilti el ho'emes eineinu - the true God gave us the true Torah, and we only look for the truth." Any exaggeration in the area of Torah and halacha is clearly a misrepresentation of our religion. The commentaries on Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 157) refer to the comments of the Maharshal in his sefer Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kamma 38a) that to misrepresent a law of the Torah constitutes an aveira related to avodah zorah[6] and as such would be subject to the principle of yeihoreig v'al ya'avor. With respect to a sofek sakanah the halacha clearly requires that we go extremely l'chumrah. Especially religious Jews, who know that they are charged with a mission in life, should certainly be extremely machmir on matters of sofek sakanah. Although every word of a poem appears in the dictionary, the poet conveys an idea by putting the words in a certain order. So too, different people can have the same ideas and the same principles, but if you put them in a different arrangement you have changed the whole understanding if each one of the principles[7]. Once you exaggerate the significance of any particular mitzvah, you have misrepresented the whole picture of kol haTorah kula. [1] See Rashi, Devarim 33:9. [2] See Achiezer, volume 1, #23,2. [3] Siman 166; see Teshuvos Dvar Yehoshua, vol. 2 #94 [4] Hilchos Yesodei haTorah, 5:1. [5] See Mishna Berura 328:6. [6] Because we believe that the Torah is a description of the essence of G-d, misrepresenting the Torah is tantamount to misrepresenting G-d Himself [7] Thoughts 1:22, by Blaise Pascal` From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 07:07:03 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Message-ID: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> R R Wolpoe or R Ben Hecht (the blog post gives me mixed signals) posted the following guidelines from R Yaakov Hoffman of the Washington Heights Congregation designed for his congregation. (Not to be confused with R Yair Hoffman of the 5TJT.) http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-rrw-guest-blogger-rabbi-yaakov.html On factor I noticed RYH didn't mention that I saw others did was maintaining your usual davening times. (Assuming we're not talking about kevasiqin as the other option.) :-)BBii! -Micha NishmaBlog Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Friday, 20 March 2020 >From RRW Guest Blogger: Rabbi Yaakov Hoffman Below is a halachic guide I prepared for my shul on how to daven on Shabbos without a minyan, and general halachos one should know that are affected by not being in a shul framework on Shabbos. Feel free to use/adapt for your own shuls. Also, I would be happy to receive any he'aros you may have. Thanks. Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide - One should make an effort to daven Mincha on Friday before plag ha-mincha (this week ~5:50pm). - It is not necessary to recite the full Kabbalat Shabbat as recited in shul; reciting Lecha Dodi, Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat, Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh, and Bameh Madlikin is sufficient. One should recite Lecha Dodi and Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat before sunset (this week ~7:07pm). - Although ordinarily one should daven Maariv after nightfall when praying without a minyan, on Friday evening one may daven after plag (preferably one should wait ~20 minutes after plag). The Shema must be repeated after nightfall (tzeit ha-kochavim, this Friday ~7:42pm). - One may make Kiddush and begin the meal immediately after davening Maariv. If one has not yet begun the meal by tzeit ha-kochavim, one must repeat the Shema before eating. - Those who arise early are strongly encouraged to daven ke-vatikin -- timing one's Shacharit to begin the Amidah at sunrise (this week ~6:56am). - If one is pressed for time (e.g., in order to daven at sunrise, or because one needs to help out at home), one can skip the extra psalms added during Psukei de-Zimra on Shabbat, with the exception of Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat and Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh. - Men should take care to daven Shacharit before the latest time for the Shema (this week ~10am). - After the Amidah of Shacharit, one recites Ashrei and then the Amidah of Musaf, followed by Ein k'Elokeinu, Aleinu, and Shir shel Yom. - It is extremely advisable to read or study the weekly parashah at some point over Shabbat (and to be extra careful about shnayim mikra during the preceding week). - On Shabbat Mevarchim, it is a good idea to remind oneself and one's household about the upcoming Rosh Chodesh (Rosh Chodesh Nisan is Thursday March 26). One does not recite the formal prayer for the upcoming month that is recited in shul. - One should wash for the Shabbat morning meal before midday (this week ~1pm). - One should daven Mincha before eating se`udah shlishit. - Se`udah shlishit should begin before sunset, and may extend as long as one likes. After benching, or after 10 minutes post-sunset (whichever is later), one may not eat or drink anything except water until after Havdalah. - One should not daven Maariv on Saturday night until after Shabbat is over (this week ~7:50pm); preferably, one should not do any melacha before davening Maariv (with atah chonantanu) or making Havdalah. - Baruch Hashem L'Olam is omitted in Maariv when not davening with a minyan. The rest of Maariv, including additions for motza'ei Shabbat, is recited as usual. Veyiten lecha may be recited after Havdalah. Vihi no`am and ve'attah kadosh are omitted on the Saturday night preceding Pesach (and Shavuot, but hopefully we will be back in shul well before then!), but veyiten lecha is still recited. Yaakov Hoffman Rabbi, Washington Heights Congregation[5] www.bridgeshul.com Posted by Rabbi Ben Hecht at 9:08 am From dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk Fri Mar 20 05:02:57 2020 From: dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk (D Rubin) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> References: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 From: Zev Sero > I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so > completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made > hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who > can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and > condiments to make the bread taste better... http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29994 From zev at sero.name Fri Mar 20 08:38:46 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Also omit bracha me'ein sheva, as one does whenever one is not davening with a regularly scheduled minyan. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at Segalco.com Sat Mar 21 11:26:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Interesting-no mention of remembering to dress for shabbat KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From isaac at balb.in Sat Mar 21 04:29:28 2020 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:29:28 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis a vis Lo Sa'amod? 2. Has there been any advice to Mohelim who normally do Metzitza bPeh to cease the practice at this time? 3. Does a Rav have a Chiyuv as Mesader Kiddushin to cease proceedings until there is (in Australia) 4 meters square between people 4. Does a Caterer have a Chiyuv to cease serving food at a Simcha or the like if it too is breaching guidelines? _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ??? From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:35:43 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kshering Metal Sinks Message-ID: . The Chicago CRC has a video on hag'alat keilim at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HSfRG69ho&feature=youtu.be I am curious about two things he said at 6:52-6:59, about kashering a metal sink: 1) "make sure that it's a continuous flow and not to stop in the middle from that pot" 2) "start from the bottom and then you work your way up" Why should it be a continuous flow? What's wrong with pausing the flow, as long as every square millimeter gets hit? And what is the advantage of doing the floor of the sink prior to the walls? Alternatively, what's the downside of kashering the walls first? My totally uneducated guess is that the runoff from the walls would do a "chozer v'niur" on the floor, cancelling the 24-hour wait, whereas if the floor is done first, the runoff from the walls is not sufficiently chometzdik to invalidate the kashering. Am I close? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 24 16:23:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: <20200324232314.GA12402@aishdas.org> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 I see two distinct conversations here: - Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? - Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc... When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria. -Micha IsraelNationalNews.com Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33 A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the presence of the "Zoom" program. The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly people who cannot be physically close to their family members due to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their family through the program. The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the start of the holiday. Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency. "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness, so is the case here," the rabbis wrote. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:29:48 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minor fasts? Message-ID: The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare with other b'al nefesh call outs? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:31:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut Message-ID: A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have failed this test. Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:18:33 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder Message-ID: More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to him? I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps, and we would not want to skip any of them. For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on, and then eating the karpas. But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha, the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately. Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on during the meal. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they arise. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 25 13:40:14 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:40:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:56:23 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325215623.GC14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > > accepted as given. > > One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is > universal.... Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal. > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example ... > Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually > a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't > think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist > that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." > Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of > famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading > scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even > existed. And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population. https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US. https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are non-sighted people. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:37:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> Message-ID: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: > 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching > government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis > a vis Lo Sa'amod? I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera > epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, > davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan > that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to > station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:33:51 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The 5780th Pasuk Message-ID: <20200325213351.GA11104@aishdas.org> There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the corresponding pasuq. So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24: Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov... Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to the year of RMF's petirah. So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28: Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah ve'ein bahem tevunah. Of course, I don't know what to make of that. OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth, 5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim): Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha... >From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at "R Eliyahu Shelomo". This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the 601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo: Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz... (I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es haqeitz.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:40:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? See AhS OC 158:13 , where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not, and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open -- safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:04:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325220433.GD14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote: > On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos >> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic >> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or > rimon? You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit if an esrog is unavailable. If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is complex. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Decisions are complex. Author: Widen Your Tent The Torah is complex. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' Binyamin Hecht From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:19:11 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: <20200325211911.GA6964@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable >> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as >> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the >> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt >> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would >> have failed this test. Thoughts? > He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his > colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, > Achiyah Hashiloni. The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact limits of a relative term. If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim, then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the seeds were there. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 10:40:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m! Message-ID: <20200326174000.GA8153@aishdas.org> Save the date! SAVE THE DATE Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020 1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom! https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598 There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time with a Facebook account, just email me at micha at aishdas.org and ask to be included. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 25 23:15:16 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. --------------------------- For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah KT and stay safe Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:14:21 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger asked: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 > ... > Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi > names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA > systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article. I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this in paragraph Aleph: "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei Ashkenaz. But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other reasons? Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 09:24:16 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >> a vis Lo Sa'amod? > > I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera >> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, >> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan >> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to >> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 12:14:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus Message-ID: <20200326191427.GB19172@aishdas.org> The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't want to post the question, but invited me to. RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that is particularly communicable. As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum number of people necessary. But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to the babies. Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear someone discuss the question? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From crclbas at mail.aol.com Thu Mar 26 13:16:34 2020 From: crclbas at mail.aol.com (BenS) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom seder Message-ID: <202003862i1634.GA18647@aishdas.org> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger wrote: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 ... >> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the >> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly >> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due >> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their >> family through the program. I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak. Ben From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 15:02:56 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >>> a vis Lo Sa'amod? >> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ... > No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In > that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested > that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government > to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it > (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing > them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know > how RAE would answer the question posed here. If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to have the police there to break up any violations? Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 17:01:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, > rather than prevent or break up violations? Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places, including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report* to the authorities a violation of *their* rules. Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not yours. So it's very different from RAE's case. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mgluck at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:45:27 2020 From: mgluck at gmail.com (mgluck at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> References: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <027501d603f2$89d05870$9d710950$@gmail.com> R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... ---- R' MB: I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? --------- IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing doesn't make him tahor either, according to that. KT, MYG From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:40:46 2020 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well > known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa > hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon > Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom > Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many > Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." > > Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei > Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or > whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei > Ashkenaz. > The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the latter option would seem to be correct. > > But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. > The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under those circumstances. > > But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a > regular basis? > Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice. ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less widespread. IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let alone the end of maggid, are minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:06:34 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim Message-ID: . For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating, then do we really have permission to break the fast? Think about that for a moment. If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English, so it's HIS words, not my translation.) <<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>> Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:33:50 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:33:50 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns Message-ID: . When I was younger, the electric urns that we used for hot water on Shabbos were very simple: fill it, plug it in, and there was a valve for taking the water when you needed it. But many of the newer ones have various settings. Mine ( https://www.amazon.com/ProChef-SM300-35-Cup-Water-Shabbostat/dp/B07FK8KTZ6) for example, has three settings, called Regular, Shabbat, and Yom Tov. The manual gives the following explanation of the three settings: > Regular Mode: Keeps the water hot based on the water temperature > Shabbat Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer > Yom Tov Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer and is Halachically permissible to add cold water on Yom Tov Based on that explanation, this is my understanding: In Regular Mode, the thermostat is in full control; when the water gets too cool the heater will turn on until the correct temperature is reached, and then the heater turns off. In Shabbat and Yom Tov modes, the thermostat never responds to the water being too cool. Rather, every so often the timer will turn the heater on, and the thermostat will turn the heater off when the water is hot enough. So what's the difference between Shabbat Mode and Yom Tov mode? If I would use the Shabbat Mode on Yov Tov, is it assur to add water? If I would use the Yom Tov Mode on Shabbat, is there a problem? These are not theoretical questions. If we are still in Chutz Laaretz for this coming Pesach, we'll have a "three day yom tov", and I don't know which setting is preferable. Does anyone else know? Thank you! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Mar 29 10:15:09 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tefillah When Davening Alone Message-ID: Click here to download "Tefillah When Davening Alone" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 30 08:17:44 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:17:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato Message-ID: Please see https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:04 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Announcing Geshem Message-ID: . In Dec 2011, in the thread "Announcing Tal Umatar", I asked why halacha demands such critical announcements for starting and stopping the prayer for Geshem, yet no formal announcements at all for starting and stopping Tal Umatar. I got no response at all. I asked the same question again in Oct 2015, in the thread "Announcing Geshem". This time I did get one response, from R' Micha Berger, who wrote: > Well, it does make sense to me that baqashos have a level of > personalization that we do not find in shevach. I can insert > whatever baqashos I want to add for birkhas hashanim, so things > are more fluid there. > > My question is more your first one -- why must shevach be communal? > Not making up your own adjectives for G-d, I understand; but even > if I were to switch without everyone in the qehillah doing so yet > (because of the lack of announcement), I wouldn't be doing that... His answer seems very similar to what I found in a teshuva from Rav Hershel Schachter, https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950285/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-9-hallel-on-pesach-night-and-tefillas-tal/ released just yesterday, on how we should handle the switchover this coming Pesach, when most of us will have no effective tzibur for the announcement. The brackets are mine, parentheses are Rav Schachter's. > There is a big difference between She'eila (V'sen Tal Umatar > Livracha) and Hazkara (Mashiv Haruach). See what I wrote in > the name of our Rav [Soloveitchik] in MiPeninei HaRav (section > Tefila, number 5), that changing the descriptions of Hashem > (from Mashiv Haruach to Morid Hatal) requires Reshus Hatzibur, > and an individual is not allowed to make changes on his own. So to answer *my* question, Tefilas Geshem and Tefilas Tal are not informational. They don't simply inform us about the change, they *authorize* the change. And that authorization is not needed in Barech Aleinu. And to answer RMB's question, I'd suggest learning that section of MiPeninei HaRav. (Rav Schachter did give his views there about what we should do in our private Musafs this coming yom tov, but I need to learn it a few more times, and understand it better, before I comment on it.) Akiva Miller Stay Home - Save Lives . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:20:34 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] roll your own Message-ID: An oleh one Thursday (hopefully we will be back in shul soon) morning insisted on reading his own aliyah. I was surprised that the gabbai/Rabbi did not waive him off (given the reason individual olim stopped reading was so as not to embarrass others). Is this at all common? KT and Be Well Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:21:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ukimtas Message-ID: When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara(e.g. the gemara really was dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 2 13:37:43 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: >From today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? A. The Steipler Gaon (Orchos Rabbeinu 2:57) writes that one who studies Gemara or any other subject cannot make a siyum unless one understood the subject matter. The learning need not be with great depth. It is enough that one learns the p?shat (simple understanding). Many poskim hold that this is true even if one did not study the Gemara with Rashi or any other commentary. Sefer Ohr L?Tzion (3:12, ha?arah 1) writes that even if one might have missed a few lines here or there, they can still make a siyum. Similarly, he writes that although when one learns Torah one must vocalize every word (or listen to each word from a chavrusa), but if one occasionally learned by reading the words in one?s mind, one may still make a siyum. One can make a siyum even if one learns a short Masechta such as Tamid or Horiyos, and even if it was studied out of order. Rav Elyashiv, zt?l (Doleh Umashkeh, p. 318:3) held that one person must learn the entire Masechta and it cannot be divided up among a group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sat Jan 4 18:20:44 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: That?s a question which I have always wondered about. The way I see it is the same as taking a test and either passing or failing. If you and I take a test and you get 100 and I get a 60 (assuming that is the passing grade), then I have at least passed. Therefore, I see the same as learning. We both can have learned B?rochos and you know it by heart with all of the m?forshim, and I have learned it enough to get a passing grade so therefore I feel I would have the right to make a siyyum. However, I would look upon your siyyum as more noteworthy (however you wish to interpret that). From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 5 10:41:22 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: <0A849E37-7BD7-45AA-9C73-83FC0FE25429@cox.net> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry is Scripture's way of conveying the conviction that the formative age in Israel's history was not a series of haphazard incidents but the fulfillment of God's grand design??" Avraham lived for 175 years Yitzchok for 180 years Ya'akov for 147years. These numbers form an ordered and symmet- rical series: 7 x 5 squared = 175 (Abraham) 5 x 6 squared = 180 (Isaac) 3 x 7 squared = 147 (Jacob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Tue Jan 7 06:53:14 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:53:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] downloads available.. Message-ID: <134f01d5c56a$313b9010$93b2b030$@touchlogic.com> A coffee drinker's guide to Shabbos micro ground coffee / drip coffee / French press / using timer OUD creamer. do you have to wait 6 hrs till using.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/62kukx9q3ybjs4f/A%20coffee%20drinker%27s%20guide%2 0to%20Shabbos.docx?dl=0 2500 quick English psakim from R Shlomo Miller shlita https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 7 14:12:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? Message-ID: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> From a post: On the one hand, a frustrating element of arbitrariness surrounds umbrella use on Shabbos. Why do we act strictly on this issue, which is hotly debated among authorities, while acting leniently on other disputed issues? God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident. On the other hand, like an individual, a community is defined in part by its past. We cannot change how we got to where we are, our communal evolution through history. As halakhah evolves--within boundaries, of course--we cannot turn back the clock without destabilizing the system. Me: ?God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident.? I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening in ch?ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation) ? Your thoughts? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 04:12:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> Message-ID: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 10:12:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > "God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical > accident." I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories > told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening > in ch"ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at > least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation)? Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a factor in choosing which. After all, we allow for G-d's Will including 49 ways letamei and 49 ways letaheir, and letting humans decide which way of approaching the Truth is necessary for the situation we're in. What I am proposing is more limited than Historical School. With no parallel to some travesty like assigning personal or political motives to a ruling. I am saying that the strengths and weaknesses of how the masses are relating to halakhah itself are historical realities halakhah must account for. Also, to be complete although the issue isn't pragmatic any more -- gezeiros. If you do not believe that Chazal saw where practice *happened to* need shoring up at their moment in time, the decision to make a gezeira to avoid one risk and not a different one seems kind of arbitary at times. I have to believe they were responding to which mistakes were actually being made, or at least mistaken attitudes gaining currnecy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:03:38 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200108200338.GA3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 7:12am EST I replied to RJR: > Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu > va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a > factor in choosing which. This reminds me of another question RJR (was it RJR or is my memory playing tricks?) asked years ago about Goedel's Theorem. Halakhah is immune from Goedel's Theorem: Halakhah on the Divrei Elokim Chaim / dialectic level allows for Eilu veEilu. THere is no Law of Contradiciton, A and not-A can both be Torah, so Goedel's proof fails. Halakhah lemaaseh is not a closed formal system, because -- as I am arguing in this thread -- history matters. It's not a clean room exercise detatched from the realia the poseiq and sho'el/alim are living in. More info from the outside can influence the answer. It's not the kind of system math is, so Goedel's proof fails here too. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:10:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200108201057.GB3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 07:14:21AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: >> We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them >> as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, >> it should be done by example. > Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" > (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish > human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner > consistent with the will of HKB"H... In R' Wolbe's essay titled "Frumkeit" (Alei Shur vol II, available at ), he quotes the Alter of Slabodka as saying "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." The frum person is the one who makes sure to have Shabbos guests each week, but whose guests end up feeling much like his tefillin -- an object with which he did a mitzvah. A person acting out of frumkeit doesn't love to love, he loves in order to be a holier person. And ironically, he thereby fails -- because he never develops that Image of the Holy One he was created to become. The person who acts from self-interest, even from the interest of ascending closer to G-d, will not reach Him. (Taken from my blog post at .) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Thus excellence is not an event, Author: Widen Your Tent but a habit. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aristotle From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 9 11:45:06 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 19:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? Message-ID: >From today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? A. If a person owns their home, they are obligated to put mezuzos on the door as soon as they occupy the home (see Gilyon Maharsha YD 286:22). At what point is one considered an occupant? If one moves furniture and other belongings into a home, but has not actually started living in the house, there is a dispute between the poskim whether a mezuzah is required. The Chovas Hadar (13, footnote 10) assumes there is an obligation, while Rabbi Aharon Felder, in Oholei Yeshurun (page 6, fn 69) quotes other poskim who say the mitzvah begins only when one resides in the home. Shulchan Aruch (YD 236:22) rules that if one rents a house or apartment in the Diaspora, the requirement to put up mezuzos begins after 30 days have elapsed ? on the 31st day (the day of the move counts as day one, even if it is only a partial day.) The Derech Chaim disagrees and maintains that if the lease is for more than 30 days, the obligation to post mezuzos begins immediately. Though most poskim agree with the Shulchan Aruch that there is no obligation to post a mezuzah within 30 days under all circumstances, nonetheless the Magen Avrohom suggests that it is permissible to put a mezuzah on the wall during the first thirty days and recite a bracha. By doing so, the opinion of the Derech Chaim will be covered. The Nachalas Tzvi (286:22) objects to the suggestion of the Magen Avrohom and maintains that the bracha cannot be recited before the mitzvah is obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein (YD 1:179) offers a solution that covers all bases. He recommends putting up the mezuzos (to satisfy the opinion of the Derech Chaim) without a bracha (in deference to the Nachalas Tzvi). After 30 days the mezuzos should be removed, or at least slightly pushed, and then a bracha is required. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 10 06:22:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Askara In-Reply-To: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> References: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200110142208.GA29555@aishdas.org> Talmudology is a blog by R Jeremy Brown on science and gemara, following the daf yomi. (His wife is the known author on Torah topics, Dr Erica Brown.) In this installment, for Berakhos 8a (tomorrow's daf) http://www.talmudology.com/jeremybrownmdgmailcom/2020/1/8/berachot-8a-what-is-askera-and-why-does-it-kill-you or http://bit.ly/36EBBHy RJB rules out the usual translation of "askara" as "croup", since even in their day it wasn't likely to be fatal. Instead, he finds that diphtheria, epiglottitis and quincy fit the gemara's description and suggests it was one of those. Adding another suggestion we're discussed here during the omer in years past: R Sheira Gaon (She'iltos 1:1) says "askara" refers to the sicarii, literally: daggers, but the name was given to the dagger-bearing class of Roman soldiers. His context is the death of R' Aqiva's students by askara; he says they died at the Romans' hands. But, to quote Koren's translation of the gemara, minus the word "croup": [Askara] is like a thorn entangled in a wool fleece, which, when pulled out backwards, tears the wool. Some say that [askara] is like ropes at the entrance to the esophagus, which would be nearly impossible to insert and excruciating to remove. I cannot believe R' Sherira Gaon didn't have an answer for the description in this gemara. Maybe askara is an actual illness that in that one story was being used euphemistically? Or maybe the Romans took to shechting or garroting their victims, r"l? :-)BBii! -Micha PS: Below is a very helpful signature quote, for those of us who spend a lot of time "talking" about things online. -- Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every http://www.aishdas.org/asp argument and to always be right. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Nassan of Breslav - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Likutei Tefilos 94:964 From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 05:52:08 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: > Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." < One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 14 08:32:32 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Adopting Outside the Community Message-ID: <20200114163231.GA17990@aishdas.org> In , or https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/politics-current-affairs/2020/01/why-orthodox-jews-have-been-hesitant-to-adopt-outside-their-community-and-why-they-shouldnt-be/ Malka Groden ("a domestic-adoption advocate in the American Jewish community") writes and article titled: Why Orthodox Jews Have Been Hesitant to Adopt Outside Their Community, and Why They Shouldn't Be I am posting to Avodah because I am including her summaries of points made by RMMS (about the duty to raise nitzotzos, including those in non-Jews) and by RYBS (from Family Redeemed about natural vs covenantal parenthood). And afterwood, the thoughts I had on the subject of adopting non-Jews, developing since the days when we did. ... There is, however, one group of American Jews who are indeed marrying young, having children, and building families deeply connected to Jewish communal infrastructure through synagogues, schools, and a broad range of support organizations. That group comprises both the Charedim and the [M]odern Orthodox... In recent decades, indeed, the Orthodox world has become adept at devising arrangements in support of individuals and families going through life's most significant challenges: medical crises, infertility, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, and more. The organization In Shifra's Arms, for example, supports, emotionally, practically, and financially, Jewish women facing unplanned pregnancies; for another example, the Jewish Children's Adoption Network has placed thousands of Jewish babies with special needs in Jewish homes nationwide. But there's the rub: float within Orthodox precincts any suggestion of becoming involved with the issue of foster care and adoption in the larger society, and the initial response will likely be, "But those children aren't Jewish. Why is this a Jewish cause?" ... [The Lubavitcher] Rebbe taught that Jews are tasked with revealing not only their own "divine spark" but also the divine spark that resides within each human being, Jew and non-Jew alike. Thus, among Chabad's initiatives was a campaign to include, at the start of each day in the nation's public schools, a moment of silence during which all children would have an opportunity to contemplate their own purpose and responsibilities. Similarly, the Rebbe pushed for criminal-justice reform--stressing that those incarcerated must be given the chance for rehabilitation so that they too can return to their God-given mission in life--at a time when this issue did not command the broad consensus it enjoys today. Both of these projects, geared simultaneously toward Jews and the broader community, reflected the Rebbe's firmly activist view of the essential worth of each human being. With a proper moral foundation and education, he held, every individual, however highly or humbly situated, has the potential to grow and reveal his or her own divine spark. It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home. Meanwhile, Rabbi Soloveitchik, coming at the issue from his own direction, devoted an entire volume of essays, Family Redeemed, to the theme of family relationships. In one of these essays, he describes two forms of parenthood. The first form, "natural parenthood," is represented by Adam and Eve. The motherhood of Eve is instinctual and all-consuming; her entire being is involved, through the nine months of pregnancy and onward through the physical and biological demands of childbirth and child rearing. For Adam, by contrast, fathering a child makes no biological claims at all; after the child's birth, he is free to act exactly as he did before. With Abraham and Sarah, a new form--"covenantal" or "redeemed" parenthood--is revealed. For the first time, fatherhood demands something of men: Abraham must serve as an educator, molding his children and the next generation. In this mission, Sarah, the redeemed mother, joins him as partner and essential link in the transmission of the covenant. Separate from the biological demands made on her as a mother, motherhood takes on a larger ethical meaning to which she in turn makes a free commitment. At the start of the Jewish people's history, God confers on the first foremother and forefather the chance to move beyond the innate ties of biology and assume a trans-generational mission. ... By learning from the remarkable work done by American Christians, and by actualizing the core Jewish mission through the redemptive power of the Jewish family, American Jews can begin to help bring healing to a generation of children wounded and forgotten. I am not a huge fan of focusing on the need for homes as a motive for adoption. I am afraid of too many children being taken on as chessed projects rather than letting a normal parent-child relationship develop. But let me focus on Avodah material. If someone wants to adopt in order to continue their mimetic line, (along with the joys and the aggravations of parenting -- kind of like gilu bir'adah) the halakhos are simpler and cleaner when adopting a non-Jewish child. The giyur will be al daas beis din, and the parents are apitrupusei beis din. There is actually a halachically recognized tie between parents and adopted child, and the chinukh you provide is a chiyuv. (Not the chiyuv of "veshinantam levanekha", but still, a chiyuv.) That said, I still think aniyei irekha qodmin -- as long as there are Jewish children to be found, in today's climate of Open Adoption the halachic issues are generally resolvable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair: http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while, Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:32:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) Message-ID: My comment on a hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) shiur: imho an example of trying to codify something that is primarily mimetic. 100 shiurim can't take the place of role models who demonstrate how to know when it will be accepted and how time and place define when to dig in your heels on what issues. Also how you evaluate the impact on the individual vs. the community. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:35:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:35:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hedgehog? Message-ID: On R' Gil Perl's hedgehog piece https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ : I would agree that if MO's goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys' rabbeim's question as to why I just didn't put on a black hat ,is that I just don't think it's what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 20th century) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t613k at aol.com Tue Jan 14 22:42:12 2020 From: t613k at aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> In Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1 dated 1/4/2020? >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinksthat the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... <>>> This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against Orthodox Jews for 200 years.? But this accusation is simply not true.? We Orthodox Jews should not internalize the false image that our enemies have of us.? This belief that our enemies are right about us reflects a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.? Since we are all human beings, of course we all have our faults.? But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <>? In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim? --Toby Katzt613k at aol.com ============= ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 15 05:39:53 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <> --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com I would simply say community should be judged by the following ???- Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying.-Ralph Waldo Emerson Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 06:23:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] =?iso-8859-1?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Adam=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200115142357.GA30570@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 06:42:12AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote: >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, >> thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... > > This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against > Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against > Orthodox Jews for 200 years... And the Semag made against us 700 yearts ago, in asei #74. In explaining why, lemaaseh, one does have to return an aveidas aku"m, he writes , tr. mine so see it in the original at the link: I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain and the rest of Goliyos Edom that now that the exile has gone on far too long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of the world and grab onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not commit sin, do not speak lies, and one won't find a false tongue in their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them, the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People] for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesn't plant a kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One, blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves with trickery, who will attach to them? And R Breuer, 69 years ago, wrote "`Glatt Kosher -- Glatt Yoshor" because he felt a need to remind people that the latter is more important than the former (translation via RYL). To give just the closing: We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for "Glatt Kosher" with an equally intensive one for "Glatt Yoshor." This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13): "The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." As for the wonderful things our community does, a couple of theories: While my negative stereotype is truer than RnTK will admit to herself, it is still just a generalization. The number of people running and participating in those gema"chs, bikur cholim, the chevrah.... they don't total anywhere near half of us. Second, there is just being a religious community. Compare ourselves to another Middle or Upper-Middle class religious community. Look at chessed among actual aku"m like the Mormons. And yet we have the Emes! And we have a system that shapes our lives to inclucate that Emes, from what we eat to how we put on our shoes! Third, bein adam lachaveiro also has a BALM aspect, and we do see signs that it is that aspect that drives much of the chessed. Like the numerous articles by BT, singles, people who rely on Shabbos hospitality, who so often leave feeling like they served as an esrog, a cheftza shel mitzvah. The Alter of Slabodka says something related, about the lishmah of BALC (found quoted in Alei Shur vol II, tr. mine): "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning, http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to Author: Widen Your Tent mend." - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Jan 15 05:56:18 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira Message-ID: <006801d5cbab$90687a70$b1396f50$@touchlogic.com> https://lehavin.org/ At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both topics and keyword searches From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Jan 15 11:27:46 2020 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: <6757A82F-25CA-46D9-A1F0-1C001AA62A5B@tenzerlunin.com> I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh, brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore BALC in the face of BALM. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:56 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: R'n TK writes: "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?" R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Indeed, there is the rub. We learn one thing, but how much do we practice? Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters. An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring home to the shabbos table, and what-not. It was a terrific program. (I have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome -- see https://projectderech.org/). My kids, B"H, are still positively effected by that program. I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15 years ago or so (IIRC) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:55:44 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha Message-ID: R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted? But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha will NOT be accepted? Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until that standard is met the duty remains. We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands of sheep, stole this one sheep etc. The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous. In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even though they did not seek his forgiveness? as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct. Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all circumstances to be a Chassid? Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch. One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national history. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 19:00:45 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are > shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many > questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon > harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? Other illustrations: 1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha. And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff. This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus. 3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by self-identifying as "frum". Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And which one isn't given kibudim in shul? 3- Newspaper headlines. Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that impression, although most boys do. And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust. So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know I was the exception. 4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there. And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro. Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are middos seen as an end in themselves? 5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!" That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut the line in and of itself, doesn't work. And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe http://www.aishdas.org/asp you can be certain of improving, Author: Widen Your Tent and that's your own self. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aldous Huxley From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 18:40:35 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tochachah until when? Message-ID: <20200116024035.GA7698@aishdas.org> So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6) who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9 . I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else. So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo? How do these two issues shtim together? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 17 09:42:58 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro In-Reply-To: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> References: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200117174258.GA9251@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: >> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are >> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many >> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon >> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? > Other illustrations: Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was triggered. The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael". There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos) which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment): Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t) See a daf image at https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_36079_73.pdf or http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2864&size=2 It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions, nor even Sefaria (see "No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")! :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 18 16:53:29 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo Message-ID: <20200119005329.GA12632@aishdas.org> Times of Israel or https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-at-shiloh-archaeologist-finds-artifacts-hinting-at-biblical-tabernacle/ As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including in full): Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh Jan. 17 2020 According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio, 33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.) https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/742731340&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true -micha From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 19 12:53:49 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question Message-ID: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 19 08:26:56 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? Message-ID: Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father, and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says -- that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These [...] From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 19 22:20:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? _______________________________________________ IMHO 1. Make sure the ba'al kore gets proper medical treatment 2. clean up any mess 3. if the ba'al kore can't continue, get a substitute Now if the oleh is the one bleeding, it's probably a bigger issue. See S"A O"C 140 KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Jan 20 04:48:53 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200120124853.GB13148@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 03:53:49PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > A colleague asked me the following question and I had > no answer. > If the ba'al kore is reading the Torah and either has a > nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer > to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? RJR focused on the leining. But I saw the question as being more about the kashrus of the Torah with the blood on it. Ink spills, which are actually black, do not invalidate a sefer Torah -- as long as the letters remain intact. Now that I think of it, although I do not remember this case in the AhS -- maybe also as long as the ink itself doesn't look like an inserted letter? Blood that is red or brown could invalidate a letter too. Or so I am deducing from the case of black letters that had gold painted on top of them (eg in an attempt to glorify Hashem's name) -- the gold has to be removed. So it seems you have to see the black ink. But I do not think any of my speculation about added letters would apply. And in any case, it should be cleaned up simply out of respect for the Torah. ---- I also had thoughts about tum'ah. And so I wrote the below. But I don't think the blood in either scenario (nose bleed or paper cut) is tamei even to begin with. Struck me after I wrote it, in comparison to dam niddah. Still, I invested time, and there are things in it that might inform, so I didn't delete. There is a derabbanan to treat a seifer Torah as if it were tamei. This was to prevent a practice that became commonplace, that of storing all the holy things together. But rodents would come to eat the terumah, and naw on any scrolls nearby. But once they told the masses that the seifer Torah is not only tamei, but can be metamai one's hands too much for handling terumah, that ended. However, a seifer Torah cannot really become tamei. All of this is about treating it as though tamei. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, http://www.aishdas.org/asp if only because it offers us the opportunity of Author: Widen Your Tent self-fulfilling prophecy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Arthur C. Clarke From rabbiknopf at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:12:57 2020 From: rabbiknopf at yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> I've read this recent discussion with great interest. Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious community. I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's?What You Don?t Know About the Ultra-Orthodox - Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other articles:?Values and Religiosity?and?Charitable Giving Among Britain's Jews. And see also this page from?The Jewish Mind. With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a genuine problem (and therefore a challenge). I think it is true that fewer sheilos are asked in bein adam lechavero. I agree that both the occurrence and the communal reaction to scandals in bein adam lechavero are telling and disconcerting.? As Rabbi Berger acknowledges, there are different approaches within our mesorah in understanding the place of bein adam lechavero. Which ever approach one takes, there is room for much more serious thought as to how to reduce the gap between values and communal practice. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:09 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:13:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority Message-ID: A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a)remains silent or (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth 1. What percentage of people would take each course? (orthodox vs. non? 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:48:14 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero In-Reply-To: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200128214814.GD29555@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote: > Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the > frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't > simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious > community. > > I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About > the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other > articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's > Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind. > > With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a > genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)... I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest. What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox is at or https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/what-you-dont-know-about-the-ultra-orthodox/ From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:45:28 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128214528.GC29555@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until > that standard is met the duty remains. > > We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to > many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's > the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds > are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts > to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to > succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which > Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal). So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without the help of finding sources. The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the pasuq: Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha velo savo alav cheit. (The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for how you perceive what they did to you.) However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So, the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them into meizidim means you can't do it. But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how. That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty, even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or someone who hears the story will be influenced. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 14:20:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder) only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so we're talking about 1.8 oz. The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk. HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so. Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot. Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with te'imah. Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which "fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is. The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:35:55 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128213555.GA29555@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote: >> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." > One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and > loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. To me shilush refers to the human condition. When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face. Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.) The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3. Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz. Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give. The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others. The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above. Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:53:07 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128215307.GE29555@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony > that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or > (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth ... > 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif they did, the testimony is void? Li nir'eh: We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma. And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 29 11:53:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> References: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200129195327.GD10165@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com When we discussed this topic a decade ago (10-Oct-2009), R/Dr Prof Levine pointed us to a copy he kept of an article by R/Dr Ari Zivotofsky at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf Tir'u baTov! -Micha From sholom at aishdas.org Sun Feb 2 11:43:54 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Which parsha...? Message-ID: <1580762914542.2f7d92c33c16fe9c@aishdas.org> Someone in shul mused to me that parshas Ve'eria sure had a whole lot of mentions of H's name, and was wondering if that parsha had more mentions than any other parsha. I told him: I don't know, but I have some ideas on who/where to ask! Thoughts? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 4 19:14:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 03:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? Message-ID: In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 5 08:04:04 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ce3160-8d3b-c3a9-9e5d-e781c8bd03c7@sero.name> On 4/2/20 10:14 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R?Gil Student wrote about R?C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? According to the Rosh, at least, the minhag of most (nowadays all) Chu"l communities saying tal umatar as if they were in Iraq is mistaken, and he tried his best to change it in Spain, but faced such massive opposition that he gave up and accepted the status quo. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 5 09:57:59 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE Message-ID: This morning while shopping I noted that many types of Arnold's bread now bear on OU DE instead of OU Pareve. The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Q. Is one permitted to bake DE (Dairy Equipment) bread? For example, may one bake bread on a baking pan that was previously used to bake cheese danishes? A. (The OU recently focused on this issue, as a major bread manufacturer certified by the OU requested authorization to produce OU-DE certified bread. Click here to read Rabbi Genack?s extensive teshuva on this topic.) The Pischei Teshuva (YD 97:5) rules that bread baked on dairy equipment may be consumed. He reasons that as follows: Chazal (Pesachim 46a) forbade eating dairy bread as a gezaira (a prohibitive measure), lest one forgets the dairy status of the bread and consumes it with meat. This concern is valid when the bread contains actual dairy ingredients. However, when the bread is baked on dairy equipment, the bread is technically pareve according to the Rama, but as a chumra (an extra stringency), the bread may not be eaten with meat. Bidi?eved (after the fact), the Rama agrees that DE bread mixed with meat may be consumed. The possibility that one might not remember the status of DE bread is much less of a concern than for bread that contains actual dairy, and therefore there is no restriction on consuming DE bread. This reasoning is valid according to the Rama (95:2) who allows DE items mixed with meat bidi?eved. However, the Shach (quoted in a previous Halacha Yomis) rules that pareve items baked or roasted on dairy equipment are fully dairy and may not be consumed with meat even bidi?eved. Accordingly, the Shach would forbid all consumption of DE bread. As previously noted, many poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan (95:12), are not in agreement with the Shach. We will now address the second question about bread baked on a cheese danish pan. Are pans used to bake cheese danish treated as dairy? Interestingly, this depends on how the danish was prepared. If the cheese remained inside the dough, the pan would not have the status of actual dairy, and bread baked on the pan can be eaten with pareve or dairy foods. However, if the cheese leaked out of the danish onto the pan, the Shach would consider the pan to be actual dairy even bidi?eved, and bread baked subsequently would be forbidden. ___________________________________________ Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:41:50 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim Message-ID: Questions from (another) guy in my shul: On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is trying to annul or alleviate. (And either the P"Y, or R Rosner, suggest that perhaps this is why when a crisis is facing the community, we engage in tefilla and/or recitation of tehillim). (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the chiddush in that? Do I need R Eazar to tell me that? Or, perhaps R Elazar is saying: you can do all the ma'asim tovim you want, but without tefilla, it's not going to help? But I digress....) That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. Is there any intersection of thought -- is there any influence or stira -- of R Elazar's statements to this order of words? And why does R Elazar seemingly ignore teshuva? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:43:55 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good place to ask ;-) Thoughts, anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 5 18:59:15 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 02:59:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E809B88-1E18-4EBE-84F2-BA7F5BC94544@Segalco.com> Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. -/?????????? Some context is important. As I understand it for many years the OU Used the DE designation and then changed policy because they thought it was too confusing. This led to a time Where they fielded many questions (maybe unofficially? )about what the D really meant and many people used products as if they were DE. Now apparently they?ve gone back to issuing the DE. I think a consumer awareness campaign would be worthwhile I personally prefer having the DE designation available so that people don?t just decide on their own based on the ingredients. Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:08:01 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206200801.GA20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:43:55AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for > us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did > H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good > place to ask ;-) Well, if you don't take Bereishis 1 as history, or you believe in Omphalism ("the universe was created old, as though it all happened" -- RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements. The universe's size also is an effect of the kind of Inflation and Big Bang we had, or H' made a universe as thought we had. The same thing that set up many other things in physics, and is subject to our laws of physics. Which in turn would mean that to have the physics we do, we would need a universe of a certain size. (Or a universe that was obviously created in a "puff" of neis.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:24:09 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206202409.GB20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:41:50AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, > and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's > talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers > that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is > trying to annul or alleviate... Which fits the context; the gemara is talking about Moshe davening to come to EY. > (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with > tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the > chiddush in that? ... So the Penei Yeoshua tell you to look in the Maharsha and the Mahari Pinto, who ask just your question -- of course T + MT > T. And also, why go to Moshe who excelled at everything, not the clearest maqor for this kind of comparison. The PY only gives his own answer -- obviously the sekhar of MT is greater, as they involve many mitzvos. Even if tefillah is deOraisa, which he notes is unclear. Rather, it is specifically WRT getting out of a gezeira ra'ah. Barukh shekivanta! My reaction: We're talking about Moshe level davening, and it's still not enough without maasim tovim?! The Ben Yehoyada (ad loc) says that the intent is Avos 5:21, "kol hamzakeh es harabim, tekhus harabim talui bo". So the gemara is saying that the tefillah of someone with maasim tovim is greater than the maasim tovim in and of their own zekhuyos. > That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana > Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. And the next line in the gemara is R Elazar saying that taanis is greater than tzedaqah -- because it is done with his body, and tzedaqah is done with his money. Remember the Machzorim that have the words tzom, qol, mamon over teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, and they're all there. Tzom is a maaseh associated with teshuvah. BUT... The next line after that, also R Elazar, says that tefillah is greater that qorbanos. If the gemara were working with teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, this quote wouldn't be here, it breaks the symbolism. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:33:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206203333.GC20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 03:14:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue > I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue > since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were > all holy) There are at least two ways you can ascribe importance to mimetic precedent, whether minhag or accepted pesaq, or any other of the looser usages of the word "minhag": 1- "Im lo neviim heim benei neviim heim" or "she'reis Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" mean that there is siyata diShmaya involved in what Jews end up doing. And thus Retzon haBorei blesses such practices. (In some way that doesn't violate lo bashamayim hi. Just as a poseiq's siyata diShmaya doesn't.) 2- The lack of rabbinic objection shows that generations of rabbanim found textual support for the practice. Which would rule out practices where we have a record of rabbinic protests. I brought up #2 in the early days of Avodah, when R/Dr Meir Shinnar used a mimetic argument to prove that sei'ar be'ishah ervah is das Yehudis and changes with the fashion. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I want to do it." - is weak. Author: Widen Your Tent "I am doing it." - that is the right way. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 05:00:41 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] New Haggada Available Message-ID: A new edition is now available of my "Achieving Immortality - A Haggada for Re-Experiencing the Exodus". My main goal in this Haggada is to avoid anything that would distract us from "seeing ourselves as if we left Egypt ourselves." For example, the peirushim are incorporated into the translation and instructions, rather than being relegated to the bottom of the page. Extensive footnotes for supplementary material are accessible on the bottom of each page, but for the seder itself they are in the back of the book, to be less distracting. It is available online at Lulu.com, where anyone can find it by searching for the title and/or my name. It is available in three bindings: hardcover, paperback, and a coil-bound version (which is my family's favorite because it lies flat with no effort, so yet another distraction is avoided). All three have the exact same 200-page interior. SPECIAL HALF-PRICE pricing for Avodah readers is available if you use these links: Softcover $5.97 at https://tinyurl.com/SoftcoverHaggada Coilbound $7.47 at https://tinyurl.com/CoilboundHaggada Hardcover $12.97 at https://tinyurl.com/HardcoverHaggada (plus tax and shipping, obviously) You can often get it even cheaper! Lulu often (but usually only from Monday to Thursday) offers coupon codes that you can use when you check out and pay. You can go to Lulu.com and look for the popup notice, or you can try the frequently-offered codes LULU10 (for 10% off) or ONEFIVE (for 15% off). If you'd like to see a sample of this Haggada, to better judge how much my style fits yours, you can download a 25-page sample at https://www.dropbox.com/s/eizebhfa5qtfpwo/Haggada%202020%20Excerpts.pdf?dl=0 or https://tinyurl.com/v27cwtt Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 17:41:39 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:41:39 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Joel Rich asked Message-ID: < BL0PR02MB37454F2E5D8D2B1D2559773EBF020 at BL0PR02MB3745.namprd02.prod.outlook.com > Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hankman at bell.net Thu Feb 6 21:01:17 2020 From: hankman at bell.net (hank) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 00:01:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: <20200207050117.JFSZ16482.mtlspm02.bell.net@[IPv6:::ffff:192.168.2.56]> RMB wrote: ?RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements.? That is plausible for stars within our galaxy, but not for the billions of stars in billions of galaxies far outside the milkyway galaxy. Those heavy elements could never reach us in this galaxy. Should we postulate intelligent beings in each of those distant galaxies with their own relationship to G-d for whom their stars supply heavy elements to? Kol tuv, Chaim Manaster Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Fri Feb 7 07:43:50 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/20 8:41 pm, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > > But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the > repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - > one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. 1. As I understand it he succeeded, within his area of influence, and chazarat hashatz disappeared for several centuries, until at least the Radvaz's times. (Though his takana was only for Shacharit/Musaf on Shabbat, and for Mincha only if it was getting late.) 2. More importantly it's not an example of this phenomenon because it was *not* an incorrect minhag. Not even the Rambam claimed it was incorrect. The Rambam simply thought a new problem had arisen, which required a new takanah invoking eit laasot to override this correct minhag. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From meirabi at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 17:37:26 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:37:26 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - Talking During Tefillah, That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Zev Message-ID: suggested that RaMBaM, at least within his area of influence, succeeded in cancelling the Chazoras HaShaTz, and we assume also thereby reduced the talking during Tefillah. However, during the Radvaz's times, Ch HaShaTz was reintroduced which only reinforces the notion that Mistaken Minhagim, even if they can be temporarily abated, cannot be stopped Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinlbrody at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 21:49:16 2020 From: martinlbrody at gmail.com (Martin Brody) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:49:16 -0800 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minchagim.... Message-ID: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Cheers, Martin Brody "Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazze Meir G. Rabi From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Tue Feb 11 01:17:50 2020 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:17:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 10, 2020 02:03:22 pm Message-ID: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Talking during prayer is not a minhag. It is a hanhagah (Hebrew, like every language, has nuanced near-synonyms in matters of importance to its speakers). Jews do not talk during prayer thinking "this is how Jews should conduct themselves", or even "this is how Jews conduct themselves", and those cognitions are part of the definition of the word "minhag". The original poster asked for mistaken minhagim, which originated in the hamon `am, and which were subsequently tolerated by the scholarly class. Talking during prayer is not a mistaken minhag, because it is not a minhag at all. A minhag that satisfies the original poster's question -- as has already been pointed out by another contributor to this mailing list -- is praying for rain, not when you need rain, but when the people of Iraq need rain. Other minhagim that satisfy the original poster's question are wearing costumes on Purim, or not cutting a boy's hair till he is three years old. And there are numerous other idolatrous practices and superstitions that are found among Jews, like tugging your ear after you sneeze, or not walking over a baby, and if you do walk over a baby, then walking backwards over the baby to undo the walking forwards. If you read classic Yiddish literature, you will learn many minhagim regarding sickness which clearly belong to the category of "halloxesh `al hammakkah" but which were nearly universal among the Jews depicted in that literature, and which are not condemned by the Yiddish-speaking scholarly class even now. The practice of not eating kitniyyoth (deliberately left untranslated) on Passover also originated in the hamon `am, and was later ratified, and even codified, by the scholarly class, but I would abolish it if I could, because, inter alia, it makes it more expensive to observe Passover, and God cares about the property of His people. There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An example of this category is the practice of earning a living from teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. An even more odious example is the practice of "kollel", which involves paying people, not even to teach Torah, but just to learn it. This is not only prohibited by Jewish law, but also condemned in the strongest terms; yet the scholarly class have taken a prohibition, and turned it into a commandment, because it benefits them. A third example is draft exemptions for yeshiva students, even though -- as has been pointed out before on this mailing list -- the halakha clearly states that "bmilxemeth mitzva hakkol yotz'im, afilu xathan mixedro vkhallah mixupathah". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:43:23 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minhagim Message-ID: R' Martin Brody wrote: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Rambam's rejection can be distinguished from what we do now. The Rambam also held that we never change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta?am tachton, and so it appears we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with ta?am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, in which case it?s perfectly fine to stand. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:45:42 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah Message-ID: The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he does so here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Feb 11 10:20:47 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58288555-F618-4C81-866B-E853B664DA8C@cox.net> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who consistently stood for the entire leining. I would assume that was their minhag. The other thing I learned that many of my peers did not know and that was the halacha regarding whether you stand for the sh?ma or sit. The answer is if you are already sitting, you remain seated and conversely, if you are already standing, you remain standing. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 11 14:34:55 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should they daven? what else should they do?)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 14 08:25:30 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:25:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I typically eat only cholov Yisrael products. Accidentally, I bought a cereal that is labeled OU-D. I checked with the OU?s Webbe Rebbe (Kosherq at OU.org) and was told the cereal does not contain actual dairy, but it is made on dairy equipment. I opened the box, and I can no longer return it to the store. May I eat the cereal? A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot must be kashered before it is re-used. Nonetheless, there are various positions among poskim regarding food that was cooked in cholov akum pots in our contemporary times. The issue revolves around the current status of commercial milk. It is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l and other contemporary poskim held that the prohibition of cholov akum does not apply to commercial milk which is regulated and monitored by government agencies. Others reject this leniency. Still a third group are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As such, there are the following positions: * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position on commercial milk would obviously have no problem cooking in pots used for cholov stam. (Cholov stam is milk that was not supervised by a mashgiach, but was produced in a dairy that is monitored for purity by government inspectors.) * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a chumrah (stringency). This position is further split into two camps with respect to cholov stam keilim : Some are stringent only regarding actual cholov stam, but are lenient with respect to cholov stam keilim. This was the position of Rav Henkin, zt?l (Teshuvos Ivra 43). Others maintained the same stringency applies to keilim as well. Rav Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan HaLevi 22:5) writes that this was the position of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt?l. Nonetheless, one can argue that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would allow using a cholov stam pot that may have been unused for 24 hours. The basis for this is the Shach (YD 119:20) who writes that if a person has a chumra that his neighbor does not observe, he may still eat food that was cooked in his neighbors pot, so long as the food was not cooked specifically for him (i.e., the food was also cooked for those who are not strict), and it is not known if the pot was used in the past 24 hours. A similar argument can be made to permit the cereal in our original question, since it was already purchased, and it is not known if the equipment was used for dairy in the past 24 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 07:30:09 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] HALF A SHEKEL IS BETTER THAN NONE Message-ID: <29FD8EA8-0052-4B93-ACD1-422064094773@cox.net> As you know, this Shabbos is Shabbos Shekalim as well as Shabbos M'vorchim. I'm reminded of the Hazzan who was chanting the Rosh Chodesh Bentching and was very careful not to repeat words. But he had to fit the melody to the prayer so he sang ".....chayim she parnoso, chayim shel shekalim....." At least the uninformed realized it was Shabbos Shekalim. The Mishna Meg. 3:4 explains in the days of the monarchy, the shekel tax had become a permanent institution, and its proceeds together with other freewill offerings were used to maintain and repair the Temple (ll Kings 12:15-17; 22:3-7). Since the shekel tax was due on the first of Nisan, the Rabbis ordained that this section (30:11-16) be read as an added Torah portion about a month before: on the Shabbos before the new moon of Adar or on Rosh Chodesh itself, if it fell on Shabbos. Because of this added reading the Sabbath has become known as Shabbos Shekalim. (There is also a talmudic treatise called Shekalim). L?havdil, as a side, Christian Scriptures, Matthew 17:27, notes that Peter paid the tax for both himself and his master. The Zionist movement at its first congress (1897) revived the shekel as a common expression of support for Eretz Yisroel. The number of shekel holders became an indication of the strength of political Zionism. There were 165,000 in 1907 and in 1946 there were 2,160,000. In Yalkut Me'am Lo'ez. Sh?mos, Vol.lll, pp. 1068-1069, the question is asked why the sum chosen for expiation was fixed at one-half shekel (30:15). The reason was because Joseph had been sold into Egypt by his brothers for twenty dinars, i.e. five shekels. There being ten brothers, this amounted to a profit of one-half shekel for each. Another explanation: It was expiation for the sin of the golden calf. (Though this sin is told later, in chapter 32, the comment is based on the talmudic principle of Ein mukdam um'uchar baTorah. This same issue is raised in Mishpatim because Ch.24 shifts from the laws, that have been the subject of the Sidrah, back to the Revelation at Sinai. There is a machlokes among the m'forshim regarding when the events in this chapter took place. According to Rashi, the events recorded in verses 1-11 occurred before the Ten Commandments were given. Ramban, Ibn ezra, Rashbam, among others, maintain that these events took place after Israel had received the Ten Commandments and Moses had taught them the laws of the previous 3 chapters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 12:52:19 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 15:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag Message-ID: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> I?m not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until ?Im kesef talve.? And the second week is the second half. I don?t know which haftarah they use for the second week. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 17 20:52:17 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag In-Reply-To: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> References: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200218045217.GA2684@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 03:52:19PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely > a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot > read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until "Im > kesef talve." And the second week is the second half. I don't know which > haftarah they use for the second week. I had always wondered why the standard chapterization of the Seifer haChinukh starts a new parashash there. I was wondering if this was an actual minhag, or just a way to split up the 52 mitzvos that are in Mishpatim to more managable chapters. Now I know! Thanks. The Chinukh was written by R Aharon haLeci in Barcelona in the 13th cent. Although the chapterization may be far later, so I don't know what that says about the scope and evolution of that minhag. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 18 13:51:24 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim Message-ID: Heard in a daf yomi shiur -- R Sholom Rosner was: -- critical of minhag of oleh to not say birkas hatorah on tochacha -- critical of the minhag that women don't make a mezumin when they are three on their own; or, if with 10 men, not answering the mizumin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:23:05 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:23:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:25:46 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers Message-ID: I spent some time looking for commentaries explaining the focus on the donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers. I realize it's probably projection but I came up with two possibilities. The first was that many places the donkey seems to be taking somebody to their destiny (Think avraham Moshe bilaam......)I was thinking when they might've been concerned that they would be unable to fulfill theirs My other thought was that they represented technological extensions Of human ability ( think vcivshuha) And they would be unable to fulfill their human capabilities and be no more than another animal Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at chamor and saw chomer(material world) Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 20 11:11:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200220191100.GA15866@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:23:05AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: > But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? In terms of the tech, we're not close yet, and may never be. To weave a derashah into my explanation of that sentence, the word "binah" can refer to thought in at least two ways: - from "bein", the art of making distinctions -- bein qodesh lekhol, bein or lechoshekh... Being able to characterize this as an A, that as a B, this is spam, this is not spam. And when things are not separated: this A and B share features that would allow them to belong to the same font, whereas that A & B are in another. Finding the limits of sets, to know what to separate. That's what AI is now doing. Using what boils down to a lot of linear algebra to draw lines between sets using known examples of what's in and what's out. That can be obvious in cases of AI reading CT or MRI scans. But that is also how automous vehicles decide when to change lanes, accelerate, or whatnot. There are two sets: a right time and a wrong time. - from "binyan", the art of combining facts. Whether making deductions of the sort you did formally in Geomatry class, or inductions -- figuring out that those sets even exist. There is AI that does binyan-binah. It is very simple, generally just searching the space of possibilities until it hits sueccess (as defined for it). That's not what ML is about, and it's not where we are close to the commercial application. And may never be. Then there is informal thought. Conclusions you can only reach because you not only have a concept of red in your head, but you know what it is like to see red. (Apologies to the color blind for that example.) In terms of hashkafah... I argued that lo bashamayim hee has more to do with whose hands halakhh is in than whose it isn't. A pesaq can only come from someone who (to jump ahead to the end of the statement) "befikha ublivavkha la'asoso". Related to that knowing what red is *like*, knowing what moral is *like* is arguably a fundamental element of what a poseiq brings to the question. And even if that argument fails hashkafically, halachically pro forma a poseiq must be a mentally competent Jewish male adult who you believed has the appropriate knowledge, ability and experience (experiential knowledge?). It's the difference between whether any error would be your aveira beshogeig or your doing the right thing in following a pesaq. (And the the case of a human poseiq, their shogeig.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything. http://www.aishdas.org/asp If you want time, you must make it. Author: Widen Your Tent - Charles Buxton - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From cantorwolberg at cox.net Fri Feb 21 05:54:14 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Purim Twist Message-ID: <810C4798-B74F-40A2-B8AA-1CF357667DF4@cox.net> 1) We're all familiar with the custom and law of making much noise when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the Megilla. The standard answer to why we do it is to drown out his name. I see another reason. We must make a lot of noise against EVIL. Haman, a descendant of Amalek, is evil personified. We cannot be silent in the face of evil. We must yell, shout, and make all the noise we can. (Does this sound timely)? 2) If we were asked the etymology of the word "Megilla," we would say it comes from the word galal, "to roll." The word gelila, "wrapping the Torah" also comes from the same root. I came across a nice midrashic twist. As we know the word "Esther" has as its root "samech, tof, reish" for hidden. Interestingly, Megilla has been explained to have the root giluy, which means "revealed." Hence, we have a major theme for the Megilla -- revealing that which is hidden. From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Feb 21 07:49:15 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: "Rich, Joel" wrote: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article (to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts. In it, he talks about future possibilities. https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/ (PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form already.) It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether the machine-made connections make sense or not. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 11:58:18 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: > There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon > `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned > by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An > example of this category is the practice of earning a living from > teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like the Rambam. There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo. (Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but the Bartenura disagrees apparently.) R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah to make your daily bread? Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original: Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for, and not the learning itself. Thinking out loud: The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod, that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution instead of just "don't take pay". But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that "most". On to a very different topic, same subject line... On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I recall in my youth that there were individuals who > consistently stood for the entire leining. I would > assume that was their minhag. My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian. Amu"sh.) My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk, not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam, and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing for the diberos: > he Rambam also held that we never > change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that > we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears > we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. > My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with > ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, > in which case it's perfectly fine to stand. Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for everything. Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos. Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean a- pesaqim specific to a community b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin c- ... anything else? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:45:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour to chatzos is only bedi'eved. So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:53:40 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224205340.GB9637@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at : chamor and saw chomer(material world) The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they are in charge of their chomer side. Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason" symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me, I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Feb 24 18:58:03 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:58:03 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? --------------------------- At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan KT Joel THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 25 09:00:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200225170034.GI27056@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved or hefsed situations. But I was confused about the first question: >> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, >> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven >> is at the beginning of that time range? On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening > with a minyan The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at haneitz. In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar. Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else is also yotzei. Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.) Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan. The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema (Rambam). Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 26 04:50:01 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply z'rizin makdimin. I'm even tempted to say that it has nothing to do with z'rizin makdimin, and the proof is that the same pasuk is used for two purposes: Shacharis at the very beginning of the day, and also Mincha at the very end. Mechaber 89:1 - "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." Brachos 29b - R' Yochanan said, "It's a mitzva to pray when the sun is red." R' Zeira said, "What's the pasuk? Yira'ucha im shamesh, v'lifnay yare'ach, dor dorim." (Tehillim 72:5) Brachos 29b Rashi - "Yira'ucha im shamesh" - This is Tefilas Yotzer. "V'lifnay yare'ach" - This is Tefilas Mincha. Shabbos 118b Rashi - "V'lifnay yare'ach" - Prior to the light of the moon, while the sun has not yet set. Brachos 29b Steinzaltz - "When the sun is red" - Tefilas Yotzer with Haneitz Hachama, and Tefilas Mincha with Shkias Hachama. Brachos 29b ArtScroll note 11 - These two times (just after sunrise and just prior to sunset) are the most propitious for reciting the morning and afternoon Prayers respectively. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva ( http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24777) which says: "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day to pray - "with sunrise." And optimal time for the Minchah prayer is at the end of the day, as the sun is setting - "before the moon." I believe that the above is true l'halacha, but in the l'maaseh there is a very big difference between Shacharis and Mincha, perhaps explained best by Gemara Brachos 29b, immediately after the line I quoted above. "In the west [Eretz Yisrael] they would curse someone who davens [Mincha] when the sun gets red. Why? Because he might miss the zman." In order words, there is no downside to saying Shacharis at the very earliest time, but there is a very great danger in delaying Mincha to the very latest time. I suspect that this is why discussions about the time for Mincha center on "How early CAN I daven", and not on "When is the BEST time to daven." Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 26 07:10:59 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200226151059.GE3829@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:50am EST, R Akiva Miller wrote: > R' Micha Berger wrote: >> So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. > The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply > z'rizin makdimin... Which is why my post continued. As I noted, the Rambam says it's the sole right time, and everything else is inferior. Why would he say that? Likely the pasuq the machaber quotes: > Mechaber 89:1 -- "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one > should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." And so, I concluded that the main reason is being chosheish for the Rambam's reasoning. But even if your confidence in halachic process is such that you don't need to go beyond the Tur's shitah and minhag yisrael, there is still zerizim maqdimin. But there is more! Because doing anything before minyan is lesse Majeste or borders on it. (Thus we don't eat before davening, uless needed for davening, we don't go in order to greet people...) So, there is more drive for "as early as possible" than most mitzvos. And I think that is why: > Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, > other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva > () which says: > "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day > to pray -- "with sunrise."... I have heard Breslover speakers argue similarly. Kevasiqin is for OT1H chassidim and other benei aliyah who want to follow the beautiful idea in the pasuq in Tehillim, and OTOH for Briskers and the sort who are regularly chosheshim for rejected shitos. But never caught on among those in the middle. (It is also more common among actual vasiqin, as waking up enough before haneitz to catch a minyan kevasiqin is frustratingly common among the more "ancient" among us. That's when my father amu"sh started.) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" -- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From eliturkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 14:17:58 2020 From: eliturkel at gmail.com (Eli Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 00:17:58 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus Message-ID: halkachic cautions in the face of coronavirus https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/02/precautions-in-shul-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus/ -- Eli Turkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 13:31:37 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> References: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200301213137.GA13398@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean > a- pesaqim specific to a community > b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin > c- ... anything else? RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis until marriage. Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes, it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's all post facto. And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost. So there is a (c) for my list c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic. Anyone have a suggestion for (d)? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 14:02:05 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following: > A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) > writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot > must be kashered before it is re-used... > are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but > nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As > such, there are the following positions: > * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be > halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as > non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. > * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient > position on commercial milk would... > * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position > in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a > chumrah... This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's, as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago). But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation. Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify. Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against adulterating his milk. Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS. Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly (YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews. Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all. So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or that of another CY eater.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift. http://www.aishdas.org/asp The purpose of life Author: Widen Your Tent is to give it away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Pablo Picasso From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 15:35:52 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly. For example, I recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold in NY as kosher was actually treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper kashrus standards.. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 15:58:22 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <07ea01d5f025$4c5d3250$e51796f0$@aishdas.org> From: Prof. Levine Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST > At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. > Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for > those who wanted to keep kosher properly... But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened? My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical, since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting pesaq halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Mar 1 20:11:23 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 04:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. -------------------------------------- And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 2 07:30:52 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > following the Peri Chadash against the CS. Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all he does is cite the Radvaz? > So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes > is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or > that of another CY eater.) Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was used with was non-CY milk. If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed up in good faith. But if you hold that it's actually kosher then there's no problem in the first place. And if you're kind of in the middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as snifim lehakel. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 2 13:01:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200302210134.GC3266@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. > Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all > he does is cite the Radvaz? I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse. -Micha From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:34:37 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mezuzah checked Message-ID: From the OU: Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done? A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years (i.e., every 3? years). ......... Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions of their rav when a question would be appropriate. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:57 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot Message-ID: From R'Rimon in Hamizrachi: "In light of the above (me - shtarei hedyotot et al) it would be best if there were no ads at all in our Parshat Hashavua sheets"..... "However it is very difficult to abide by these demands in our times because it's the ads that fund the publication"... "Still it would be worth having clear guidelines" This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." I'd really appreciate a better understanding of the halachic force of this consideration. Oh, and did the publishers of Hamizrachi appreciate the irony of this article appearing in their publication with advertisement which is distributed in many shuls on Shabbat? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 10:59:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self Message-ID: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Experiencing the tzelem Elokim as proof there is an Elokim? See https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/search-soul-john-cottingham-review or http://bit.ly/3czL1aK Snippets / teasers: New Statesman The paradox of an atheist soul Why the idea of a single self only makes sense in a theistic world. By John Gray There are many arguments for theism, most of them not worth rehearsing. ... A different and more interesting approach is to argue that theism is suggested by the fact that we experience ourselves as unified, conscious beings - in other words, as having a soul. Not necessarily an immaterial entity, the soul is the part of us that strives to realise what is best in our nature. We do not come to know the soul through any special revelation. We know it by considering the kind of creature we find ourselves to be - a thinking being inhabiting a life-world that seems to reflect a mind greater than our own. Once we realise we have a soul, theism becomes a credible way of thinking. Such is the approach adopted in this lucid and illuminating book by John Cottingham, professor of the philosophy of religion at University of Roehampton.... Cottingham presents a version of the transcendental argument deployed by the German Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804). A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, it asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are accepted as given. Kant used it to support his belief in a universal moral law and, at points in his writings, the existence of God. As used by Cottingham, its purpose is to refute the Scottish sceptic David Hume (1711-1776), whom Kant described as "having interrupted my dogmatic slumber". In A Treatise of Human Nature (1739), Hume had written that the self is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed one another with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement". If the self is not an autonomous entity but an assemblage of sensations Kant's theistic faith crumbles into dust. Cottingham spells out the connection between theism and the idea of the self: It is a fundamental theistic belief, following the words of Genesis, that human beings are made "in the image" of God; and this is taken to be especially true in virtue of our conscious minds, in virtue of our attributes of intellect and will. Theism thus posits a source of ground of all being that is somehow mind-like: consciousness is taken to be at the heart of reality. The theistic picture tends to be discarded or ignored by the majority of contemporary philosophers, but it seems perverse to dismiss it from consideration should it turn out to fit rather well with certain aspects of reality that cannot in integrity be denied... [such as] the irreducible reality of consciousness. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 11:15:13 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> In a recent post in Torah Musings , R Daniel Mann answers a question about a new practice some have regarding parashas Zakhor. Again, snippets: Question: My shul has always read Parashat Zachor once, with our regular havara (pronunciation). Some people now complain that we do not follow other shuls and read multiple times with different havarot to fulfill the mitzva according to more opinions and to do the mitzva properly for Sephardim. Should we change our minhag? First he brings arguments that one doesn't need correct havara to be yotzei. Whether because the deOraisa doesn't need to be in lashon haqodesh, or perhaps has no specific text, or RMF's (IM OC 3:5) proof from chalitza that havara is not meqev, or that an Ashkenzi who doesn't distinguish between alef and ayin may serve as chazan for Ashkenazim... The latter two arguments saying that "correct havarah" is societal. Still, one might need to have Parashas Zakhor available in many havaros if the community is of people of different eidos. At least as a chumerah. But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... Several (Teshuvot V'hanhagot ibid.; Halichot Shlomo ibid.; Aseh Lecha Rav VI:22) mention hearing of such a new practice and consider it strange. They reject it as being disrespectful to the tzibbur, to the rest of our lainings, and/or to past generations who did not do such things. I would not criticize a minyan that decides to do so anyway (some fine places do), and there are circumstances in which there is a stronger argument (e.g., there is no minyan in the area of other eidot), but it is wrong to criticize the normal minhag for not adopting this innovation. In the early days of the list, I was particularly prone to Brisker chumeros (trying to be yotzei as many shitos as possible) or to chumeros or pesaqim that allow expression of how I understood the mitzvah hashkafically. I think learning a cycle and a fraction of AhS Yomi has toned that down. At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of confidence in the halachic process. As for hashkafically motivated pesaq, that's still with me more. But I think I've gotten to an age where I finally understand the value of continuity as well. (I mentioned before, though, my mother's observation about the family she married in to. My grandfather got to the US too young to be aware of most of his minhagim and therefore ended up acting as per R/Dr Mirsky's shiurim. My father's decades of "the Rav's" (RYBS's) Tues night shiur, and repreatedly took on the implications of those shiurim. And then my own habits. Doing what fits what we learned in shiur last IS the onky continuity my family practice has.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Live as if you were living already for the http://www.aishdas.org/asp second time and as if you had acted the first Author: Widen Your Tent time as wrongly as you are about to act now! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 4 11:36:42 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36.2D.07714.B14006E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:25 PM 3/4/2020, R. Joel Rich wrote: >People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients >listed on the label. > >-------------------------------------- >And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" >KT >Joel Rich Since when to two wrongs make a right? Also one has to keep in mind that in many places everything was made from scratch. My mother-in-law comes from a small town in Hungary. There was essentially no prepared anything. Baking was done at home, meat and chickens were kashered at home, etc. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Mar 6 08:19:30 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: Good stuff from Rav Aviner: http://www.ravaviner.com/2020/03/hilchot-corona.html Some of the questions include: Q: Is one obligated to listen to the instructions of the Ministry of Health regarding Corona? Q: Does one fulfill the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim on the phone? Q: If a person is in quarantine for Corona, what does he do about Davening in a Minyan? Q: Should one refrain from kissing Mezuzot on account of Corona? Q: How could someone get sick with Corona while hearing the Megillah when the Gemara states, "Harm will not befall one on the way to perform a Mitzvah"? Q: What is Hashem trying to teach us with the Corona Virus in the world? and many more -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 17:58:20 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing > practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, > some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different minhagim? -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 18:25:10 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > accepted as given. One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is universal. "Kol echad be`atzmo shi`er", and assumed everyone else must be the same. If that assumption is not true, it can lead to utter confusion, as people debate at cross-purposes, each completely unable to understand the other's arguments. See, for an example, https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like? Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even existed. The debate was resolved by Francis Galton, a fascinating man who among other achievements invented eugenics, the "wisdom of crowds", and standard deviation. Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images. Dr. Berman dubbed this the Typical Mind Fallacy: the human tendency to believe that one's own mental structure can be generalized to apply to everyone else's. -- Zev Sero Have a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:23:48 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: > One should therefore refrain from touching or kissing Mezuzot. < My practice for some time has been to "point to" (essentially, reach towards but not touch) the m'zuzah as I pass (and when I leave my house, to say, "Baruch ata b'vo'echa, uvaruch ata b'tzeisecha"). However, having trouble getting used to a clenched-fist (and hate the dangerous elbow) greeting... :). --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:53:00 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. Very well phrased! I have often felt this way, but was unable to find the words to express it. Thank you. For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Mar 9 07:09:31 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. ----------------------------------- Or a lack of confidence in oneself (or their ability/worthiness to decide)? I often think of R? Schachter comparing the personalities of R? Chaim and the Netziv and wonder if this could be explained on that basis. Enough said? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 11 11:47:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:47:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] NYT Ethicist Message-ID: NYT Ethicist - What would halacha be? Q.I have been struck by a fatal disease, inherited from my father. I have children, who know they have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the disease from me. I have several siblings. One has children of her own. She has so far refused to be tested on the off chance that she, too, has the gene. This means that her children don't know anything about the cause of my disease. There are interventions that could protect any future grandchildren, but her children don't know they are in danger of passing the disease along. I have been tempted to tell my sister's children myself, but I know this would result in a major breach in our relationship (a real loss to me). What is my ethical responsibility here? Name Withheld A. ... The trouble isn't that your sister refuses to be tested. That's her choice. ... The trouble is that she wants to prevent her children from knowing what she already knows. By keeping them in the dark, she's robbing them of the ability to make their own choices. And here's a critical point. Even if they declined to be tested themselves, simply knowing that they're at risk would enable them to protect any children they might have in the future, through "nondisclosure testing." Clinics can conduct pre?implantation embryo screening without sharing the results with the at-risk parent... Preserving your own uncertainty is defensible; putting others in jeopardy is not... As painful as a breach in your relationship with your sister would be, it's clear that your sister's misguided plan is itself weighing heavily on you. Urge her to level with her children about the facts. (She could implore them not to tell her if they are tested and get a positive result.) Were she still to refuse, tell them yourself. KT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:53:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200311205357.GG11689@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 08:58:20PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing >> practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, >> some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... > How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 > kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different > minhagim? Chazal wanted everyone doing the same thing, but rather than mandate one definition of the teru'ah to the exclusion of the others, we all do all three of them. This innovation breaks from everyone doing the same. But more than that... Chazal had the power to pasqen and would have pasqened if they didn't feel this compromise brought more achdus. Being chosheish for shitas Rashi after centuries of no one (or kim'at no one) blew according to shitas Rashi is an unwillingness to pasqen. And an unwillingness to accept that the halachic process can actually say A is right and B wrong. It's questioning the whole concept of pesaq! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:02:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311200248.GD11689@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:45:42AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be > holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six > different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). > > This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he > does so here? Never found an answer, and a month later, I'm giving up. BUT, I liked the Y-mi's explanation at the end of Challah pereq 1 (vilna daf 9b) cited at the SA ad loc by the Gra -- OC 167 s"q 4 . The ten fingers are a reminder of the 10 mitzvos it took to get the bread: 1- Lo sacharosh - Not plowing with a kelaim of animals 2- Bal tizra - Not planting kelaim 3- Bal tachsom - Not muzzling the animals to keep them from eating 4- Leqet 5- Shikhechah 6- Pei'ah 7- Terumah 8- Maaser Rishon 9- Maaser Sheini (or Maaser Ani, depending on the year, though not mentioned in the Y-mi) 10- Challah Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:20:47 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live R Ari Kahn (of Bar Ilan) came out in favor of such readings, the mar'eh meqomos for his shiur are available at https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2020/03/hearing-megillah-over-telephone-or.html AIUI, RAK's primary concern was to reassure people who have no choice, and to make sure questionable cases don't risk spreading disease by showing up. So he really presents the case for only one side. RGS pointed people to R Daniel Z Feldman's (RIETS) older piece (not reflecting this year's she'as hadechaq) in Tradition at https://traditiononline.org/the-virtual-minyain which gives both sides of the story. I tried to lend my megillah to someone so that they could listen to the above-linked reading at YU and read along from a kosher megillah. But, my livingroom is being painted, the bookcase where I keep my megillah was among those boxed up, and someone else beat me to the mitzvah. In Westchester County, NY, Chabad managed to organize leining for 100 quarantined people by having the baal qeriah read on a deck or porch, outside an open door or window. But such arrangements are not available to everyone. I saw on Facebook the following social concern that I thought was interesting and valid enough to share here. https://www.facebook.com/matthew.kritz.9/posts/2899197760173502 R Matthew Nitzanim writes (in part): This is why I fear the live-feed Megillah readings. There is no doubt that it is the most practical solution to ensure more people hear the Megillah, without risking more people catching the virus, and there is arguably halachic grounds to allow the practice (even as the debate continues), especially under these extenuating circumstances. But once virtual readings are normalized, what will Purim look like next year? I'm not too worried about no one showing up for Megillah next year - we all know it's more fun to boo for Haman and show off our costumes with friends around. But what about all those people who are alone, boxed out of society? Will the hospital and the rehab center call the local yeshiva for volunteers to come visit, or will they suffice with arranging a dial-in reading (which will inevitably come to be replaced with a recording for those who can't distinguish)? Will the readers and merry-makers of years past feel less push to pay visits when the mitzvah can be fulfilled electronically? Certainly this change wouldn't happen in just one year, but perhaps we are setting a precedent that will be taken seriously in years to come. Because what's at stake is not merely the obligation to hear the Megillah. What is at stake is the future of community and interpersonal connection in the age of digital media. Performing one of our most communal mitzvot through a screen means radically reimagining the very meaning of community, a process that is already well underway. Among the Orthodox, the study of Torah, traditionally intended to bring people into the same room, is increasingly done via recorded shiurim. Elsewhere in the Jewish world, services are taped and can be watched from home, and you can even find a dial-in Kaddish minyan. And shout out to the various Skype Seudot and Zoom Tishes spreading Purim cheer to the quarantined. Each of these is an exciting way digital communication can be used to better include those would otherwise be left out. But if we aren't careful with the pace of development, we will end up creating tools that, although intended to increase connection and participation, will further distance and disenfranchise those who were already only hoping for a visitor or two, and will be left with nothing but a computer screen. What we are watching is reminiscent of the Conservative Movement's ruling permitting driving on Shabbat -- intended to increase access to communal life, but perhaps in the process weakening the physical proximity that keeps community alive, with only time to tell whether the benefits outweigh the costs. So too with screen talk: appealing as it may be in this moment, down the road, we risk harming the very deep sense of community that held us together in ancient Persia and through the ages to this very day. Maybe this is a moment where we would benefit from Halacha being less accommodating of the present, and more oppositional and countercultural.... So he recommends making a heqer: So be cautious this Purim, not only hygienically, but spiritually too. If I had a say, I would encourage those who are doing the holy work of reading Megillah by livestream for people in quarantine not to say the Brachot, even if they are also reading for themselves, to make clear that this is a sub par, temporary fix, and not necessarily an ideal, long term change. And finally, this nice thought is off topic for the thread, but worth sharing: More importantly, for everyone stuck at home this Purim, please take it upon yourself, once your quarantine is LONG SINCE OVER, to pay a visit to someone who feels alone for more than two weeks at a time. It can be next Purim, or maybe even sooner. Take your experience of being homebound, and allow it to be a springboard for being more aware of the many, many people who would give anything not to be alone, to be greeted by a friendly face with a warm smile, by someone who remembered that it's Purim for them too. More than an ecard, or a phone call, or a Zoom chat, what they really want to see is you. qiyum is suboptimal. -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:28:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202821.GF11689@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving > priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." What the "this" was aside, I didn't think that's why we ignore those priorities. Rather, it ends up never being halakhah lemaaseh even from day one. The mishnah itself says these priorities are "all else being equal". And all else is never equal. The reisha is just one triage factor among many. The problem, thus, isn't abiding, but in deciding which mamzer is enough of a talmid chakham to go ahead of the kohein gadol, or which baal chessed outranks the innate qedushah of a kohein. Or... Lack of ability to assess, not lack of emotional constitution to follow through. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:56:30 2020 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or rimon? On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos > that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic > transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > > From penkap at panix.com Wed Mar 11 18:28:28 2020 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: ? For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" ?And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. ?So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. ?A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers.? The amount of sechel in this comment is almost overwhelming. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 11 21:26:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Perhaps one can add as a snif to "permit" it the Chasam Sofer on Hil' Kidush Levana, citing a case during a cholera epidemic in Cracow, when the rov of the time found a heter to say kidush levana on the 16th night so that people who would not otherwise be able to say it should not get depressed and ch"v endanger themselves. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:58:07 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: On Areivim, the issue was raised that the shuls in Bergen County NJ are now closed, and the question of "house minyanim" was raised too. I have a question about house minyanim that I'd like to discuss. My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. Once that minyan exists, additional people can be in adjoining rooms, provided that they can see and hear. I've often been at house minyanim where fewer people are in the room with the Shliach Tzibur, and the rest are in an adjoining room. The doorway between them is so wide that people don't give it a second thought. It seems to me that even though there is no actual door separating these two rooms, the fact that there's a mezuzah between them might define them as distinct rooms for the halacha of establishing a minyan. I hope I have explained the situation clearly enough. The MB does not seem to specify the width of the doorway in question, nor did I see any distinction between a "doorway" and an "open door". I suppose someone could argue that the problem exists only for standard-width doors which happen to be open at the moment, and that there's no problem for a living room and dining room that happen to have a mezuzah between them. Has anyone see any poskim write about this? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:02:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hand shake Message-ID: Listened to a shiur where the magid shiur said that R'X used to advise job interviewees to use the dead fish handshake, then later advised the iron man handshake until he was told that each of those would not get you a job. Now he advises a firm, quick business-like handshake. May I vent - I heard R'X say these things over the years and always wondered who he had asked about the real world. How many job opportunities were lost?? etc.?? How much of a responsibility does a poseik have to determine "reality"? (Another example - toveiling electronics) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:04:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals Message-ID: Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 18 08:05:11 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> On 18/3/20 3:04 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals > per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in > halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and condiments to make the bread taste better. Sometimes a grain porridge would substitute for the bread, but the essential roles were the same. To us, the bread, if it appears at all, is a condiment or entree to the real food. We don't eat bread with meat, we eat meat with bread. Even with grains, we regard them as a side dish, not as the main part of the course. So in principle the entire basis of hil' bh"n should be reversed. Next: Undoing the whole concept of 7 mashkim, and the principle that the juice of any fruit but grapes and olives is not a mashkeh. Not just in hil' bh"n and shabbos, but also in hil' taharos. (At least in principle, since they're not practical halachos anyway.) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 11:33:16 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: In Avodah V38n19, RAMiller noted: > My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. < But see the latter half of BH 55:14/MB 55:50. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Mar 15 18:42:51 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper _______________________________________________ Areivim mailing list Areivim at lists.aishdas.org http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 19 07:10:49 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 4 amos and Epidimeology Message-ID: <20200319141049.GA17120@aishdas.org> Is it "coincidence" or do you think it's common cause: The recommended distance to be sure we don't breathe on each other is given as 6 feet or 2 m, depending on what the masses being recommended to think in. Which "just happens to be" just around the 4 amos radius used to define a person's space for the sake of davening or acquisitions. (As an ammah is defined by to the Rambam, R Chaim Naeh, and the plaque on the wall found at Chizqiyahu's water tunnel. Not the CI. Would tzadiq gozer veE' meqayeim mean that people need to be be staying farther apart in Bnei Braq to be safe?) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 19 09:23:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> References: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> Message-ID: There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. =================================== He also said (From R' Torcyner translation): And after each prayer, evening and morning, they should recite Tehillim, certain psalms which his honour should select, and then the text of Kel rachum sh'mecha, Aneinu Hashem aneinu, Mi she'anah, and the Y'hi ratzon after Tehillim, mentioning in it the king, may Gd protect him, and his children and nobles and all who live in his land. IMHO the last part is also about the realization that a united community response is required bderech hateva (not each subsegment deciding on its own what to do) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 05:20:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:20:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger by R Herschel Schachter Message-ID: <20200320122008.GA4902@aishdas.org> This is an abornamlly long piece for Facebook, but it's making the rounds there. :-)BBii! -Micha The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger Rav Hershel Schachter Many have the mistaken impression that the Jewish religion places much emphasis on death and respect for the dead; after all, we recite kaddish, yizkor, observe shiva, and yahrzeit, etc. This is a gross misunderstanding. The respect that we show for the dead is a carryover from the respect that we show for the living. The Gemorah (Kesubos 17a, see Shitah Mekubetzes) tells us that whenever there is a conflict between kovod ha'chayim and kovod ha'meisim, kovod ha'chaim takes precedence. When the chevra kadisha brings in the aron at a funeral, everyone stands up. People mistakenly think that we stand up out of respect for the niftar, but in many cases we never stood up for him when he was alive, so why should we stand up for him now that he passed away? The Bartenurah (Mishnayos Bikurim 3:3) explains that we are not standing up out of respect for the niftar but rather out of respect for the members of the chevra kaddisha who are presently involved in the fulfillment of a mitzvah. The respect for the living is based on the premise that all human beings were created b'tzelem Elokim. When the Torah requires us to demonstrate kovod ha'meis, it means that even after the person passed away and no longer has tzelem Elokim, i.e. a neshama, we still have to act respectfully towards the body because it used to have a tzelem Elokim. Of the six hundred and thirteen mitzvos, one of the most important is the mitzvah of v'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem (Yoma 85b). Not only does the halacha require that if there is a sofek sakanah we must violate almost all of the mitzvos in the Torah to save a life, but we are also required to do so even if there is only a s'fek s'feika, a remote possibility(Yoma 85a). The Gemorah (ibid) adds that even if the likelihood is that by violating Shabbos or whatever other aveira we most probably will not be saving anyone's life, we still do not abstain from the action due to that likelihood (rove - majority). When Bnei Yisroel were traveling in the midbar for 40 years, the weather conditions were such that there was a slight sakanah in performing bris milah. Most of the sh'votim did not fulfill the mitzvah except for sheivet Levi[1]. They had an Orthodox rabbi among them, i.e. Moshe Rabbeinu. Why didn't all the shevatim ask him what to about this sofek sakanah? If it is a real sofek sakanah he should not have permitted sheivet Levi to perform the mitzvah despite their pietistic protests, and if the sofek sakanah was so insignificant that it simply should have been dismissed, why didn't he insist that all the shevatim perform the mitzvah of milah? The Gemorah (Yevamos 12b) tells us that the answer is to be found in Tehillim (116:6), "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." Whenever there is a slight sofek sakanah that is nowhere near fifty-fifty[2], the halacha declares that it depends on the attitude of the patient. If the patient whose life is at risk (or the parent of the patient who is responsible for his well-being) is personally not nervous about the danger, then the halacha does not consider it a sofek sakanah; we apply "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." But if the patient whose life is at risk is nervous and concerned about the sofek sakanah, then the halacha requires us to act based on, "V'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem", and the sofek sakanah takes precedence over almost all of the mitzvos of the Torah. Shevet Levi had bitachon, and therefore were not concerned, and therefore for their children it was not considered a sofek sakanah, but with respect to the other shevatim who were concerned it was in fact a sofek sakanah, so every shevet was acting k'din. However, if one individual is not concerned, but the nature of the sakanah is such that everyone is interdependent and the individual who personally is not nervous may possibly spread a disease to others who are concerned about its spread, then the concept of Shomer p'soyim Hashem does not apply. The individual who is not concerned does not have the right to determine for the others who are concerned that there is no sakanah for them. The Rakanti[3] relates that one of Ba'alei Ha'tosfos was deathly sick before Yom Kippur and the doctors warned him that if he fasts he will certainly die but if he eats on Yom Kippur there is a slim chance that he may survive. He decided to fast, and of course he died. All of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos were upset over his decision and felt that he went against the halacha. If a terrorist threatens to kill me unless I violate one of the mitzvos of the Torah, the halacha usually is that pikuach nefesh takes precedence over most of the mitzvos in the Torah. What if an individual wants to put up a fight knowing that he may well lose his life but thinks that by being moser nefesh he will fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem? This matter was a famous dispute amongst the Rishonim. The Rambam's opinion is that one may not volunteer to give up his life al kiddush Hashem when not required by halacha because this is tantamount to suicide[4]. Many other Rishonim disagreed with the Rambam. However, if there is no terrorist pressuring me to violate my religion, but there is merely a dangerous situation of sickness then all of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos agreed with the Rambam that it would not constitute a midas chassidus to ignore the sakanah[5]. In determining what is a sakanah and what is not, the practice of the Tanoim always was to follow the doctors of their generation. Every so often the Rambam would take a stand on a medical issue against what it says in the Gemorah and the Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah #101) explains that the Rambam was a doctor and he did exactly as the Tanoim did, namely, to follow the doctors of his generation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 331:9) also says explicitly that we follow the doctors of our generation even in contradiction to the medicine recommended in the Gemorah. We should certainly do the same as the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and follow the doctors of our generation in determining what is considered a sakanah and what is not considered a sakanah. Some well-meaning individuals have blown out of halachic proportion the significance of tefillah b'tzibur and talmud Torah b'rabim and have opted to ignore the sofek sakanah presented by the corona virus when in conflict with these two most important mitzvos. We live in a generation where many b'nei Torah tend to exaggerate the significance of Torah and tefillah. Although their intention is certainly l'shaim Shomayim, we must all keep in mind that when paskening shailos, one may not rely on an exaggeration. All exaggerations by definition are sheker - a misrepresentation of the truth of the Torah. Rav Chaim Volozhiner signs off quite a few of his teshuvos saying, "Keil Emes, Nosan lanu Toras Emes, u'bilti el ho'emes eineinu - the true God gave us the true Torah, and we only look for the truth." Any exaggeration in the area of Torah and halacha is clearly a misrepresentation of our religion. The commentaries on Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 157) refer to the comments of the Maharshal in his sefer Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kamma 38a) that to misrepresent a law of the Torah constitutes an aveira related to avodah zorah[6] and as such would be subject to the principle of yeihoreig v'al ya'avor. With respect to a sofek sakanah the halacha clearly requires that we go extremely l'chumrah. Especially religious Jews, who know that they are charged with a mission in life, should certainly be extremely machmir on matters of sofek sakanah. Although every word of a poem appears in the dictionary, the poet conveys an idea by putting the words in a certain order. So too, different people can have the same ideas and the same principles, but if you put them in a different arrangement you have changed the whole understanding if each one of the principles[7]. Once you exaggerate the significance of any particular mitzvah, you have misrepresented the whole picture of kol haTorah kula. [1] See Rashi, Devarim 33:9. [2] See Achiezer, volume 1, #23,2. [3] Siman 166; see Teshuvos Dvar Yehoshua, vol. 2 #94 [4] Hilchos Yesodei haTorah, 5:1. [5] See Mishna Berura 328:6. [6] Because we believe that the Torah is a description of the essence of G-d, misrepresenting the Torah is tantamount to misrepresenting G-d Himself [7] Thoughts 1:22, by Blaise Pascal` From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 07:07:03 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Message-ID: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> R R Wolpoe or R Ben Hecht (the blog post gives me mixed signals) posted the following guidelines from R Yaakov Hoffman of the Washington Heights Congregation designed for his congregation. (Not to be confused with R Yair Hoffman of the 5TJT.) http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-rrw-guest-blogger-rabbi-yaakov.html On factor I noticed RYH didn't mention that I saw others did was maintaining your usual davening times. (Assuming we're not talking about kevasiqin as the other option.) :-)BBii! -Micha NishmaBlog Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Friday, 20 March 2020 >From RRW Guest Blogger: Rabbi Yaakov Hoffman Below is a halachic guide I prepared for my shul on how to daven on Shabbos without a minyan, and general halachos one should know that are affected by not being in a shul framework on Shabbos. Feel free to use/adapt for your own shuls. Also, I would be happy to receive any he'aros you may have. Thanks. Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide - One should make an effort to daven Mincha on Friday before plag ha-mincha (this week ~5:50pm). - It is not necessary to recite the full Kabbalat Shabbat as recited in shul; reciting Lecha Dodi, Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat, Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh, and Bameh Madlikin is sufficient. One should recite Lecha Dodi and Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat before sunset (this week ~7:07pm). - Although ordinarily one should daven Maariv after nightfall when praying without a minyan, on Friday evening one may daven after plag (preferably one should wait ~20 minutes after plag). The Shema must be repeated after nightfall (tzeit ha-kochavim, this Friday ~7:42pm). - One may make Kiddush and begin the meal immediately after davening Maariv. If one has not yet begun the meal by tzeit ha-kochavim, one must repeat the Shema before eating. - Those who arise early are strongly encouraged to daven ke-vatikin -- timing one's Shacharit to begin the Amidah at sunrise (this week ~6:56am). - If one is pressed for time (e.g., in order to daven at sunrise, or because one needs to help out at home), one can skip the extra psalms added during Psukei de-Zimra on Shabbat, with the exception of Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat and Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh. - Men should take care to daven Shacharit before the latest time for the Shema (this week ~10am). - After the Amidah of Shacharit, one recites Ashrei and then the Amidah of Musaf, followed by Ein k'Elokeinu, Aleinu, and Shir shel Yom. - It is extremely advisable to read or study the weekly parashah at some point over Shabbat (and to be extra careful about shnayim mikra during the preceding week). - On Shabbat Mevarchim, it is a good idea to remind oneself and one's household about the upcoming Rosh Chodesh (Rosh Chodesh Nisan is Thursday March 26). One does not recite the formal prayer for the upcoming month that is recited in shul. - One should wash for the Shabbat morning meal before midday (this week ~1pm). - One should daven Mincha before eating se`udah shlishit. - Se`udah shlishit should begin before sunset, and may extend as long as one likes. After benching, or after 10 minutes post-sunset (whichever is later), one may not eat or drink anything except water until after Havdalah. - One should not daven Maariv on Saturday night until after Shabbat is over (this week ~7:50pm); preferably, one should not do any melacha before davening Maariv (with atah chonantanu) or making Havdalah. - Baruch Hashem L'Olam is omitted in Maariv when not davening with a minyan. The rest of Maariv, including additions for motza'ei Shabbat, is recited as usual. Veyiten lecha may be recited after Havdalah. Vihi no`am and ve'attah kadosh are omitted on the Saturday night preceding Pesach (and Shavuot, but hopefully we will be back in shul well before then!), but veyiten lecha is still recited. Yaakov Hoffman Rabbi, Washington Heights Congregation[5] www.bridgeshul.com Posted by Rabbi Ben Hecht at 9:08 am From dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk Fri Mar 20 05:02:57 2020 From: dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk (D Rubin) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> References: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 From: Zev Sero > I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so > completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made > hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who > can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and > condiments to make the bread taste better... http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29994 From zev at sero.name Fri Mar 20 08:38:46 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Also omit bracha me'ein sheva, as one does whenever one is not davening with a regularly scheduled minyan. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at Segalco.com Sat Mar 21 11:26:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Interesting-no mention of remembering to dress for shabbat KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From isaac at balb.in Sat Mar 21 04:29:28 2020 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:29:28 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis a vis Lo Sa'amod? 2. Has there been any advice to Mohelim who normally do Metzitza bPeh to cease the practice at this time? 3. Does a Rav have a Chiyuv as Mesader Kiddushin to cease proceedings until there is (in Australia) 4 meters square between people 4. Does a Caterer have a Chiyuv to cease serving food at a Simcha or the like if it too is breaching guidelines? _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ??? From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:35:43 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kshering Metal Sinks Message-ID: . The Chicago CRC has a video on hag'alat keilim at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HSfRG69ho&feature=youtu.be I am curious about two things he said at 6:52-6:59, about kashering a metal sink: 1) "make sure that it's a continuous flow and not to stop in the middle from that pot" 2) "start from the bottom and then you work your way up" Why should it be a continuous flow? What's wrong with pausing the flow, as long as every square millimeter gets hit? And what is the advantage of doing the floor of the sink prior to the walls? Alternatively, what's the downside of kashering the walls first? My totally uneducated guess is that the runoff from the walls would do a "chozer v'niur" on the floor, cancelling the 24-hour wait, whereas if the floor is done first, the runoff from the walls is not sufficiently chometzdik to invalidate the kashering. Am I close? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 24 16:23:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: <20200324232314.GA12402@aishdas.org> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 I see two distinct conversations here: - Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? - Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc... When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria. -Micha IsraelNationalNews.com Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33 A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the presence of the "Zoom" program. The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly people who cannot be physically close to their family members due to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their family through the program. The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the start of the holiday. Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency. "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness, so is the case here," the rabbis wrote. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:29:48 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minor fasts? Message-ID: The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare with other b'al nefesh call outs? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:31:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut Message-ID: A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have failed this test. Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:18:33 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder Message-ID: More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to him? I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps, and we would not want to skip any of them. For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on, and then eating the karpas. But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha, the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately. Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on during the meal. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they arise. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 25 13:40:14 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:40:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:56:23 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325215623.GC14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > > accepted as given. > > One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is > universal.... Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal. > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example ... > Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually > a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't > think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist > that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." > Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of > famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading > scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even > existed. And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population. https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US. https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are non-sighted people. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:37:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> Message-ID: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: > 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching > government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis > a vis Lo Sa'amod? I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera > epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, > davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan > that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to > station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:33:51 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The 5780th Pasuk Message-ID: <20200325213351.GA11104@aishdas.org> There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the corresponding pasuq. So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24: Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov... Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to the year of RMF's petirah. So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28: Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah ve'ein bahem tevunah. Of course, I don't know what to make of that. OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth, 5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim): Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha... >From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at "R Eliyahu Shelomo". This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the 601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo: Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz... (I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es haqeitz.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:40:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? See AhS OC 158:13 , where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not, and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open -- safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:04:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325220433.GD14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote: > On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos >> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic >> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or > rimon? You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit if an esrog is unavailable. If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is complex. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Decisions are complex. Author: Widen Your Tent The Torah is complex. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' Binyamin Hecht From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:19:11 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: <20200325211911.GA6964@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable >> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as >> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the >> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt >> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would >> have failed this test. Thoughts? > He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his > colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, > Achiyah Hashiloni. The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact limits of a relative term. If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim, then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the seeds were there. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 10:40:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m! Message-ID: <20200326174000.GA8153@aishdas.org> Save the date! SAVE THE DATE Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020 1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom! https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598 There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time with a Facebook account, just email me at micha at aishdas.org and ask to be included. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 25 23:15:16 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. --------------------------- For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah KT and stay safe Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:14:21 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger asked: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 > ... > Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi > names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA > systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article. I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this in paragraph Aleph: "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei Ashkenaz. But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other reasons? Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 09:24:16 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >> a vis Lo Sa'amod? > > I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera >> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, >> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan >> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to >> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 12:14:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus Message-ID: <20200326191427.GB19172@aishdas.org> The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't want to post the question, but invited me to. RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that is particularly communicable. As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum number of people necessary. But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to the babies. Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear someone discuss the question? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From crclbas at mail.aol.com Thu Mar 26 13:16:34 2020 From: crclbas at mail.aol.com (BenS) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom seder Message-ID: <202003862i1634.GA18647@aishdas.org> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger wrote: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 ... >> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the >> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly >> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due >> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their >> family through the program. I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak. Ben From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 15:02:56 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >>> a vis Lo Sa'amod? >> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ... > No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In > that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested > that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government > to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it > (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing > them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know > how RAE would answer the question posed here. If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to have the police there to break up any violations? Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 17:01:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, > rather than prevent or break up violations? Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places, including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report* to the authorities a violation of *their* rules. Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not yours. So it's very different from RAE's case. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mgluck at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:45:27 2020 From: mgluck at gmail.com (mgluck at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> References: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <027501d603f2$89d05870$9d710950$@gmail.com> R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... ---- R' MB: I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? --------- IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing doesn't make him tahor either, according to that. KT, MYG From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:40:46 2020 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well > known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa > hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon > Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom > Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many > Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." > > Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei > Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or > whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei > Ashkenaz. > The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the latter option would seem to be correct. > > But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. > The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under those circumstances. > > But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a > regular basis? > Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice. ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less widespread. IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let alone the end of maggid, are minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:06:34 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim Message-ID: . For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating, then do we really have permission to break the fast? Think about that for a moment. If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English, so it's HIS words, not my translation.) <<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>> Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:33:50 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:33:50 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns Message-ID: . When I was younger, the electric urns that we used for hot water on Shabbos were very simple: fill it, plug it in, and there was a valve for taking the water when you needed it. But many of the newer ones have various settings. Mine ( https://www.amazon.com/ProChef-SM300-35-Cup-Water-Shabbostat/dp/B07FK8KTZ6) for example, has three settings, called Regular, Shabbat, and Yom Tov. The manual gives the following explanation of the three settings: > Regular Mode: Keeps the water hot based on the water temperature > Shabbat Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer > Yom Tov Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer and is Halachically permissible to add cold water on Yom Tov Based on that explanation, this is my understanding: In Regular Mode, the thermostat is in full control; when the water gets too cool the heater will turn on until the correct temperature is reached, and then the heater turns off. In Shabbat and Yom Tov modes, the thermostat never responds to the water being too cool. Rather, every so often the timer will turn the heater on, and the thermostat will turn the heater off when the water is hot enough. So what's the difference between Shabbat Mode and Yom Tov mode? If I would use the Shabbat Mode on Yov Tov, is it assur to add water? If I would use the Yom Tov Mode on Shabbat, is there a problem? These are not theoretical questions. If we are still in Chutz Laaretz for this coming Pesach, we'll have a "three day yom tov", and I don't know which setting is preferable. Does anyone else know? Thank you! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Mar 29 10:15:09 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tefillah When Davening Alone Message-ID: Click here to download "Tefillah When Davening Alone" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 30 08:17:44 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:17:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato Message-ID: Please see https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:04 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Announcing Geshem Message-ID: . In Dec 2011, in the thread "Announcing Tal Umatar", I asked why halacha demands such critical announcements for starting and stopping the prayer for Geshem, yet no formal announcements at all for starting and stopping Tal Umatar. I got no response at all. I asked the same question again in Oct 2015, in the thread "Announcing Geshem". This time I did get one response, from R' Micha Berger, who wrote: > Well, it does make sense to me that baqashos have a level of > personalization that we do not find in shevach. I can insert > whatever baqashos I want to add for birkhas hashanim, so things > are more fluid there. > > My question is more your first one -- why must shevach be communal? > Not making up your own adjectives for G-d, I understand; but even > if I were to switch without everyone in the qehillah doing so yet > (because of the lack of announcement), I wouldn't be doing that... His answer seems very similar to what I found in a teshuva from Rav Hershel Schachter, https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950285/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-9-hallel-on-pesach-night-and-tefillas-tal/ released just yesterday, on how we should handle the switchover this coming Pesach, when most of us will have no effective tzibur for the announcement. The brackets are mine, parentheses are Rav Schachter's. > There is a big difference between She'eila (V'sen Tal Umatar > Livracha) and Hazkara (Mashiv Haruach). See what I wrote in > the name of our Rav [Soloveitchik] in MiPeninei HaRav (section > Tefila, number 5), that changing the descriptions of Hashem > (from Mashiv Haruach to Morid Hatal) requires Reshus Hatzibur, > and an individual is not allowed to make changes on his own. So to answer *my* question, Tefilas Geshem and Tefilas Tal are not informational. They don't simply inform us about the change, they *authorize* the change. And that authorization is not needed in Barech Aleinu. And to answer RMB's question, I'd suggest learning that section of MiPeninei HaRav. (Rav Schachter did give his views there about what we should do in our private Musafs this coming yom tov, but I need to learn it a few more times, and understand it better, before I comment on it.) Akiva Miller Stay Home - Save Lives . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:20:34 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] roll your own Message-ID: An oleh one Thursday (hopefully we will be back in shul soon) morning insisted on reading his own aliyah. I was surprised that the gabbai/Rabbi did not waive him off (given the reason individual olim stopped reading was so as not to embarrass others). Is this at all common? KT and Be Well Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:21:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ukimtas Message-ID: When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara(e.g. the gemara really was dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 2 13:37:43 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: >From today's OU Halacha Yomis Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? A. The Steipler Gaon (Orchos Rabbeinu 2:57) writes that one who studies Gemara or any other subject cannot make a siyum unless one understood the subject matter. The learning need not be with great depth. It is enough that one learns the p?shat (simple understanding). Many poskim hold that this is true even if one did not study the Gemara with Rashi or any other commentary. Sefer Ohr L?Tzion (3:12, ha?arah 1) writes that even if one might have missed a few lines here or there, they can still make a siyum. Similarly, he writes that although when one learns Torah one must vocalize every word (or listen to each word from a chavrusa), but if one occasionally learned by reading the words in one?s mind, one may still make a siyum. One can make a siyum even if one learns a short Masechta such as Tamid or Horiyos, and even if it was studied out of order. Rav Elyashiv, zt?l (Doleh Umashkeh, p. 318:3) held that one person must learn the entire Masechta and it cannot be divided up among a group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sat Jan 4 18:20:44 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Q. If one read through a Masechta, but did not really understand it, can he make a siyum? Message-ID: That?s a question which I have always wondered about. The way I see it is the same as taking a test and either passing or failing. If you and I take a test and you get 100 and I get a 60 (assuming that is the passing grade), then I have at least passed. Therefore, I see the same as learning. We both can have learned B?rochos and you know it by heart with all of the m?forshim, and I have learned it enough to get a passing grade so therefore I feel I would have the right to make a siyyum. However, I would look upon your siyyum as more noteworthy (however you wish to interpret that). From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 5 10:41:22 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: <0A849E37-7BD7-45AA-9C73-83FC0FE25429@cox.net> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry is Scripture's way of conveying the conviction that the formative age in Israel's history was not a series of haphazard incidents but the fulfillment of God's grand design??" Avraham lived for 175 years Yitzchok for 180 years Ya'akov for 147years. These numbers form an ordered and symmet- rical series: 7 x 5 squared = 175 (Abraham) 5 x 6 squared = 180 (Isaac) 3 x 7 squared = 147 (Jacob) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcohen at touchlogic.com Tue Jan 7 06:53:14 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:53:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] downloads available.. Message-ID: <134f01d5c56a$313b9010$93b2b030$@touchlogic.com> A coffee drinker's guide to Shabbos micro ground coffee / drip coffee / French press / using timer OUD creamer. do you have to wait 6 hrs till using.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/62kukx9q3ybjs4f/A%20coffee%20drinker%27s%20guide%2 0to%20Shabbos.docx?dl=0 2500 quick English psakim from R Shlomo Miller shlita https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%2 0all.doc?dl=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 7 14:12:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 22:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? Message-ID: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> From a post: On the one hand, a frustrating element of arbitrariness surrounds umbrella use on Shabbos. Why do we act strictly on this issue, which is hotly debated among authorities, while acting leniently on other disputed issues? God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident. On the other hand, like an individual, a community is defined in part by its past. We cannot change how we got to where we are, our communal evolution through history. As halakhah evolves--within boundaries, of course--we cannot turn back the clock without destabilizing the system. Me: ?God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical accident.? I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening in ch?ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation) ? Your thoughts? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 04:12:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> Message-ID: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 10:12:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > "God's will, as defined by halakhah, should not be subject to historical > accident." I tend to agree, yet we see it not infrequently (e.g. stories > told about why no dairy bread allowed even with wrapper, why no duchening > in ch"ul) So IMHO either you have to say it is hashgacha pratit or at > least that those poskim saw it as such (rather than random fluctuation)? Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a factor in choosing which. After all, we allow for G-d's Will including 49 ways letamei and 49 ways letaheir, and letting humans decide which way of approaching the Truth is necessary for the situation we're in. What I am proposing is more limited than Historical School. With no parallel to some travesty like assigning personal or political motives to a ruling. I am saying that the strengths and weaknesses of how the masses are relating to halakhah itself are historical realities halakhah must account for. Also, to be complete although the issue isn't pragmatic any more -- gezeiros. If you do not believe that Chazal saw where practice *happened to* need shoring up at their moment in time, the decision to make a gezeira to avoid one risk and not a different one seems kind of arbitary at times. I have to believe they were responding to which mistakes were actually being made, or at least mistaken attitudes gaining currnecy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:03:38 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:03:38 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Halachic accidents? In-Reply-To: <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> References: <5A5F6041-02D2-451D-A67C-D5A7AD2730B8@Segalco.com> <20200108121247.GC32445@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200108200338.GA3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 08, 2020 at 7:12am EST I replied to RJR: > Third possibility: They saw the two sides as supportably within eilu > va'eilu, and indeed let the challenges to halakhah of their times be a > factor in choosing which. This reminds me of another question RJR (was it RJR or is my memory playing tricks?) asked years ago about Goedel's Theorem. Halakhah is immune from Goedel's Theorem: Halakhah on the Divrei Elokim Chaim / dialectic level allows for Eilu veEilu. THere is no Law of Contradiciton, A and not-A can both be Torah, so Goedel's proof fails. Halakhah lemaaseh is not a closed formal system, because -- as I am arguing in this thread -- history matters. It's not a clean room exercise detatched from the realia the poseiq and sho'el/alim are living in. More info from the outside can influence the answer. It's not the kind of system math is, so Goedel's proof fails here too. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns http://www.aishdas.org/asp G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four Author: Widen Your Tent corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 8 12:10:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:10:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200108201057.GB3571@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 07:14:21AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: >> We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them >> as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, >> it should be done by example. > Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" > (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish > human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner > consistent with the will of HKB"H... In R' Wolbe's essay titled "Frumkeit" (Alei Shur vol II, available at ), he quotes the Alter of Slabodka as saying "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." The frum person is the one who makes sure to have Shabbos guests each week, but whose guests end up feeling much like his tefillin -- an object with which he did a mitzvah. A person acting out of frumkeit doesn't love to love, he loves in order to be a holier person. And ironically, he thereby fails -- because he never develops that Image of the Holy One he was created to become. The person who acts from self-interest, even from the interest of ascending closer to G-d, will not reach Him. (Taken from my blog post at .) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are what we repeatedly do. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Thus excellence is not an event, Author: Widen Your Tent but a habit. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aristotle From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Jan 9 11:45:06 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 19:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? Message-ID: >From today's OU kosher Halacha Yomis Q. When does the obligation to put mezuzahs on the home begin? A. If a person owns their home, they are obligated to put mezuzos on the door as soon as they occupy the home (see Gilyon Maharsha YD 286:22). At what point is one considered an occupant? If one moves furniture and other belongings into a home, but has not actually started living in the house, there is a dispute between the poskim whether a mezuzah is required. The Chovas Hadar (13, footnote 10) assumes there is an obligation, while Rabbi Aharon Felder, in Oholei Yeshurun (page 6, fn 69) quotes other poskim who say the mitzvah begins only when one resides in the home. Shulchan Aruch (YD 236:22) rules that if one rents a house or apartment in the Diaspora, the requirement to put up mezuzos begins after 30 days have elapsed ? on the 31st day (the day of the move counts as day one, even if it is only a partial day.) The Derech Chaim disagrees and maintains that if the lease is for more than 30 days, the obligation to post mezuzos begins immediately. Though most poskim agree with the Shulchan Aruch that there is no obligation to post a mezuzah within 30 days under all circumstances, nonetheless the Magen Avrohom suggests that it is permissible to put a mezuzah on the wall during the first thirty days and recite a bracha. By doing so, the opinion of the Derech Chaim will be covered. The Nachalas Tzvi (286:22) objects to the suggestion of the Magen Avrohom and maintains that the bracha cannot be recited before the mitzvah is obligatory. Rav Moshe Feinstein (YD 1:179) offers a solution that covers all bases. He recommends putting up the mezuzos (to satisfy the opinion of the Derech Chaim) without a bracha (in deference to the Nachalas Tzvi). After 30 days the mezuzos should be removed, or at least slightly pushed, and then a bracha is required. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 10 06:22:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Askara In-Reply-To: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> References: <20200110114456.GA26826@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200110142208.GA29555@aishdas.org> Talmudology is a blog by R Jeremy Brown on science and gemara, following the daf yomi. (His wife is the known author on Torah topics, Dr Erica Brown.) In this installment, for Berakhos 8a (tomorrow's daf) http://www.talmudology.com/jeremybrownmdgmailcom/2020/1/8/berachot-8a-what-is-askera-and-why-does-it-kill-you or http://bit.ly/36EBBHy RJB rules out the usual translation of "askara" as "croup", since even in their day it wasn't likely to be fatal. Instead, he finds that diphtheria, epiglottitis and quincy fit the gemara's description and suggests it was one of those. Adding another suggestion we're discussed here during the omer in years past: R Sheira Gaon (She'iltos 1:1) says "askara" refers to the sicarii, literally: daggers, but the name was given to the dagger-bearing class of Roman soldiers. His context is the death of R' Aqiva's students by askara; he says they died at the Romans' hands. But, to quote Koren's translation of the gemara, minus the word "croup": [Askara] is like a thorn entangled in a wool fleece, which, when pulled out backwards, tears the wool. Some say that [askara] is like ropes at the entrance to the esophagus, which would be nearly impossible to insert and excruciating to remove. I cannot believe R' Sherira Gaon didn't have an answer for the description in this gemara. Maybe askara is an actual illness that in that one story was being used euphemistically? Or maybe the Romans took to shechting or garroting their victims, r"l? :-)BBii! -Micha PS: Below is a very helpful signature quote, for those of us who spend a lot of time "talking" about things online. -- Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every http://www.aishdas.org/asp argument and to always be right. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Nassan of Breslav - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Likutei Tefilos 94:964 From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 05:52:08 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:52:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation Message-ID: > Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." < One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 14 08:32:32 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:32:32 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Adopting Outside the Community Message-ID: <20200114163231.GA17990@aishdas.org> In , or https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/politics-current-affairs/2020/01/why-orthodox-jews-have-been-hesitant-to-adopt-outside-their-community-and-why-they-shouldnt-be/ Malka Groden ("a domestic-adoption advocate in the American Jewish community") writes and article titled: Why Orthodox Jews Have Been Hesitant to Adopt Outside Their Community, and Why They Shouldn't Be I am posting to Avodah because I am including her summaries of points made by RMMS (about the duty to raise nitzotzos, including those in non-Jews) and by RYBS (from Family Redeemed about natural vs covenantal parenthood). And afterwood, the thoughts I had on the subject of adopting non-Jews, developing since the days when we did. ... There is, however, one group of American Jews who are indeed marrying young, having children, and building families deeply connected to Jewish communal infrastructure through synagogues, schools, and a broad range of support organizations. That group comprises both the Charedim and the [M]odern Orthodox... In recent decades, indeed, the Orthodox world has become adept at devising arrangements in support of individuals and families going through life's most significant challenges: medical crises, infertility, domestic violence, drug addiction, poverty, and more. The organization In Shifra's Arms, for example, supports, emotionally, practically, and financially, Jewish women facing unplanned pregnancies; for another example, the Jewish Children's Adoption Network has placed thousands of Jewish babies with special needs in Jewish homes nationwide. But there's the rub: float within Orthodox precincts any suggestion of becoming involved with the issue of foster care and adoption in the larger society, and the initial response will likely be, "But those children aren't Jewish. Why is this a Jewish cause?" ... [The Lubavitcher] Rebbe taught that Jews are tasked with revealing not only their own "divine spark" but also the divine spark that resides within each human being, Jew and non-Jew alike. Thus, among Chabad's initiatives was a campaign to include, at the start of each day in the nation's public schools, a moment of silence during which all children would have an opportunity to contemplate their own purpose and responsibilities. Similarly, the Rebbe pushed for criminal-justice reform--stressing that those incarcerated must be given the chance for rehabilitation so that they too can return to their God-given mission in life--at a time when this issue did not command the broad consensus it enjoys today. Both of these projects, geared simultaneously toward Jews and the broader community, reflected the Rebbe's firmly activist view of the essential worth of each human being. With a proper moral foundation and education, he held, every individual, however highly or humbly situated, has the potential to grow and reveal his or her own divine spark. It is the mission of Jews to advance that project through whatever means they can: teaching Torah, helping to build a soup kitchen, giving charity, or adopting and parenting a non-Jewish child in desperate need of a stable, loving home. Meanwhile, Rabbi Soloveitchik, coming at the issue from his own direction, devoted an entire volume of essays, Family Redeemed, to the theme of family relationships. In one of these essays, he describes two forms of parenthood. The first form, "natural parenthood," is represented by Adam and Eve. The motherhood of Eve is instinctual and all-consuming; her entire being is involved, through the nine months of pregnancy and onward through the physical and biological demands of childbirth and child rearing. For Adam, by contrast, fathering a child makes no biological claims at all; after the child's birth, he is free to act exactly as he did before. With Abraham and Sarah, a new form--"covenantal" or "redeemed" parenthood--is revealed. For the first time, fatherhood demands something of men: Abraham must serve as an educator, molding his children and the next generation. In this mission, Sarah, the redeemed mother, joins him as partner and essential link in the transmission of the covenant. Separate from the biological demands made on her as a mother, motherhood takes on a larger ethical meaning to which she in turn makes a free commitment. At the start of the Jewish people's history, God confers on the first foremother and forefather the chance to move beyond the innate ties of biology and assume a trans-generational mission. ... By learning from the remarkable work done by American Christians, and by actualizing the core Jewish mission through the redemptive power of the Jewish family, American Jews can begin to help bring healing to a generation of children wounded and forgotten. I am not a huge fan of focusing on the need for homes as a motive for adoption. I am afraid of too many children being taken on as chessed projects rather than letting a normal parent-child relationship develop. But let me focus on Avodah material. If someone wants to adopt in order to continue their mimetic line, (along with the joys and the aggravations of parenting -- kind of like gilu bir'adah) the halakhos are simpler and cleaner when adopting a non-Jewish child. The giyur will be al daas beis din, and the parents are apitrupusei beis din. There is actually a halachically recognized tie between parents and adopted child, and the chinukh you provide is a chiyuv. (Not the chiyuv of "veshinantam levanekha", but still, a chiyuv.) That said, I still think aniyei irekha qodmin -- as long as there are Jewish children to be found, in today's climate of Open Adoption the halachic issues are generally resolvable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair: http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while, Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:32:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:32:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) Message-ID: My comment on a hilchot hochacha (laws of giving rebuke) shiur: imho an example of trying to codify something that is primarily mimetic. 100 shiurim can't take the place of role models who demonstrate how to know when it will be accepted and how time and place define when to dig in your heels on what issues. Also how you evaluate the impact on the individual vs. the community. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Jan 14 20:35:54 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 04:35:54 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hedgehog? Message-ID: On R' Gil Perl's hedgehog piece https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ : I would agree that if MO's goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys' rabbeim's question as to why I just didn't put on a black hat ,is that I just don't think it's what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 20th century) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t613k at aol.com Tue Jan 14 22:42:12 2020 From: t613k at aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> In Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 1 dated 1/4/2020? >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinksthat the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... <>>> This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against Orthodox Jews for 200 years.? But this accusation is simply not true.? We Orthodox Jews should not internalize the false image that our enemies have of us.? This belief that our enemies are right about us reflects a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome.? Since we are all human beings, of course we all have our faults.? But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <>? In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim? --Toby Katzt613k at aol.com ============= ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 15 05:39:53 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein_Adam?= =?utf-8?q?=C2=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But Orthodox Jews in general -- Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Chasidim, Misnagdim, charedim, Modern Orthodox -- do NOT teach or preach that <> --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com I would simply say community should be judged by the following ???- Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying.-Ralph Waldo Emerson Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 06:23:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] =?iso-8859-1?q?Using_Bein_Adam_laMakom_to_Motivate_Bein?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Adam=A0laChaveiro?= In-Reply-To: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> References: <514765293.7787529.1579070532160@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200115142357.GA30570@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 06:42:12AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote: >> We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, >> thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom.... > > This is the same accusation that Christians have been making against > Jews for 2000 years and that Reform/secular Jews have been making against > Orthodox Jews for 200 years... And the Semag made against us 700 yearts ago, in asei #74. In explaining why, lemaaseh, one does have to return an aveidas aku"m, he writes , tr. mine so see it in the original at the link: I already expounded to the exiled from Jerusalem who are in Spain and the rest of Goliyos Edom that now that the exile has gone on far too long, it is appropriate for Israel to separate from the vanities of the world and grab onto the signet of the Holy One, blessed be He, which is truth, and not to lie neither to Jew nor to gentile. Not to mislead them in any way. To sanctify themselves even in what is permitted to them, as it says, "The remnant of Israel do not commit sin, do not speak lies, and one won't find a false tongue in their mouths." (Tzefaniah 3:13) And when Hashem comes to save them, the nations will say, "It was done justly, for they are a people of truth and the Torah of truth is in their mouths." But if they act with the gentiles with trickery, they will say, "See what the Holy One, blessed be He did, that chose for His portion thieves and con-men." Also, it says, "I will plant her [the Jewish People] for myself in the land..." (Hosheia 2:25) A person doesn't plant a kur [of seed] but to produce numerous kurim. So too the Holy One, blessed be He, planted Israel among the lands so that converts will join them (Pesachim 87b) and every time that they conduct themselves with trickery, who will attach to them? And R Breuer, 69 years ago, wrote "`Glatt Kosher -- Glatt Yoshor" because he felt a need to remind people that the latter is more important than the former (translation via RYL). To give just the closing: We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for "Glatt Kosher" with an equally intensive one for "Glatt Yoshor." This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13): "The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." As for the wonderful things our community does, a couple of theories: While my negative stereotype is truer than RnTK will admit to herself, it is still just a generalization. The number of people running and participating in those gema"chs, bikur cholim, the chevrah.... they don't total anywhere near half of us. Second, there is just being a religious community. Compare ourselves to another Middle or Upper-Middle class religious community. Look at chessed among actual aku"m like the Mormons. And yet we have the Emes! And we have a system that shapes our lives to inclucate that Emes, from what we eat to how we put on our shoes! Third, bein adam lachaveiro also has a BALM aspect, and we do see signs that it is that aspect that drives much of the chessed. Like the numerous articles by BT, singles, people who rely on Shabbos hospitality, who so often leave feeling like they served as an esrog, a cheftza shel mitzvah. The Alter of Slabodka says something related, about the lishmah of BALC (found quoted in Alei Shur vol II, tr. mine): "Ve'ahavta lereiakha komakha -- and you shall love your peers like yourself." That you should love your peer the way you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah, rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer." To which Rav Wolbe notes, "This approach is entirely alien to frumkeit." Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning, http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to Author: Widen Your Tent mend." - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter From mcohen at touchlogic.com Wed Jan 15 05:56:18 2020 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira Message-ID: <006801d5cbab$90687a70$b1396f50$@touchlogic.com> https://lehavin.org/ At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both topics and keyword searches From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Jan 15 11:27:46 2020 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: <6757A82F-25CA-46D9-A1F0-1C001AA62A5B@tenzerlunin.com> I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh, brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore BALC in the face of BALM. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 13:19:56 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro Message-ID: R'n TK writes: "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?" R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Indeed, there is the rub. We learn one thing, but how much do we practice? Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters. An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring home to the shabbos table, and what-not. It was a terrific program. (I have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome -- see https://projectderech.org/). My kids, B"H, are still positively effected by that program. I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15 years ago or so (IIRC) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:55:44 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha Message-ID: R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted? But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha will NOT be accepted? Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until that standard is met the duty remains. We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands of sheep, stole this one sheep etc. The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous. In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even though they did not seek his forgiveness? as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct. Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all circumstances to be a Chassid? Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch. One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national history. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 19:00:45 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam?laChaveiro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are > shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many > questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon > harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? Other illustrations: 1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha. And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff. This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus. 3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by self-identifying as "frum". Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And which one isn't given kibudim in shul? 3- Newspaper headlines. Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that impression, although most boys do. And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust. So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know I was the exception. 4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there. And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro. Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are middos seen as an end in themselves? 5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!" That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut the line in and of itself, doesn't work. And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe http://www.aishdas.org/asp you can be certain of improving, Author: Widen Your Tent and that's your own self. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Aldous Huxley From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 15 18:40:35 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Tochachah until when? Message-ID: <20200116024035.GA7698@aishdas.org> So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6) who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9 . I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else. So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo? How do these two issues shtim together? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and no moment is like any other. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Chaim Vital - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Fri Jan 17 09:42:58 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro In-Reply-To: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> References: <20200116030045.GA10757@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200117174258.GA9251@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: >> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are >> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many >> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon >> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)? > Other illustrations: Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was triggered. The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael". There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos) which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment): Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t) See a daf image at https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_36079_73.pdf or http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2864&size=2 It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions, nor even Sefaria (see "No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")! :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Sat Jan 18 16:53:29 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo Message-ID: <20200119005329.GA12632@aishdas.org> Times of Israel or https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-at-shiloh-archaeologist-finds-artifacts-hinting-at-biblical-tabernacle/ As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including in full): Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh Jan. 17 2020 According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio, 33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.) https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/742731340&color=%23ff5500&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&show_teaser=true&visual=true -micha From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Jan 19 12:53:49 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question Message-ID: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Jan 19 08:26:56 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? Message-ID: Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father, and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says -- that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These [...] From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Jan 19 22:20:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 06:20:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: A colleague asked me the following question and I had no answer. If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? _______________________________________________ IMHO 1. Make sure the ba'al kore gets proper medical treatment 2. clean up any mess 3. if the ba'al kore can't continue, get a substitute Now if the oleh is the one bleeding, it's probably a bigger issue. See S"A O"C 140 KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Jan 20 04:48:53 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 07:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Question In-Reply-To: References: <6734CB4D-D992-4293-A7B8-6AA5C123E3B9@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200120124853.GB13148@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 03:53:49PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > A colleague asked me the following question and I had > no answer. > If the ba'al kore is reading the Torah and either has a > nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer > to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response? RJR focused on the leining. But I saw the question as being more about the kashrus of the Torah with the blood on it. Ink spills, which are actually black, do not invalidate a sefer Torah -- as long as the letters remain intact. Now that I think of it, although I do not remember this case in the AhS -- maybe also as long as the ink itself doesn't look like an inserted letter? Blood that is red or brown could invalidate a letter too. Or so I am deducing from the case of black letters that had gold painted on top of them (eg in an attempt to glorify Hashem's name) -- the gold has to be removed. So it seems you have to see the black ink. But I do not think any of my speculation about added letters would apply. And in any case, it should be cleaned up simply out of respect for the Torah. ---- I also had thoughts about tum'ah. And so I wrote the below. But I don't think the blood in either scenario (nose bleed or paper cut) is tamei even to begin with. Struck me after I wrote it, in comparison to dam niddah. Still, I invested time, and there are things in it that might inform, so I didn't delete. There is a derabbanan to treat a seifer Torah as if it were tamei. This was to prevent a practice that became commonplace, that of storing all the holy things together. But rodents would come to eat the terumah, and naw on any scrolls nearby. But once they told the masses that the seifer Torah is not only tamei, but can be metamai one's hands too much for handling terumah, that ended. However, a seifer Torah cannot really become tamei. All of this is about treating it as though tamei. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, http://www.aishdas.org/asp if only because it offers us the opportunity of Author: Widen Your Tent self-fulfilling prophecy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Arthur C. Clarke From rabbiknopf at yahoo.com Mon Jan 20 17:12:57 2020 From: rabbiknopf at yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> I've read this recent discussion with great interest. Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious community. I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's?What You Don?t Know About the Ultra-Orthodox - Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other articles:?Values and Religiosity?and?Charitable Giving Among Britain's Jews. And see also this page from?The Jewish Mind. With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a genuine problem (and therefore a challenge). I think it is true that fewer sheilos are asked in bein adam lechavero. I agree that both the occurrence and the communal reaction to scandals in bein adam lechavero are telling and disconcerting.? As Rabbi Berger acknowledges, there are different approaches within our mesorah in understanding the place of bein adam lechavero. Which ever approach one takes, there is room for much more serious thought as to how to reduce the gap between values and communal practice. Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Jan 22 20:13:09 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:13:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority Message-ID: A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a)remains silent or (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth 1. What percentage of people would take each course? (orthodox vs. non? 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:48:14 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam lechavero In-Reply-To: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> References: <576808803.24466614.1579569177685.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <576808803.24466614.1579569177685@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200128214814.GD29555@aishdas.org> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote: > Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the > frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't > simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious > community. > > I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About > the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other > articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's > Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind. > > With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a > genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)... I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest. What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox is at or https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/what-you-dont-know-about-the-ultra-orthodox/ From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:45:28 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] ToChaCha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128214528.GC29555@aishdas.org> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until > that standard is met the duty remains. > > We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to > many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's > the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds > are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts > to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to > succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which > Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times. I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal). So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without the help of finding sources. The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the pasuq: Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha velo savo alav cheit. (The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for how you perceive what they did to you.) However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So, the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them into meizidim means you can't do it. But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how. That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty, even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or someone who hears the story will be influenced. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 14:20:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder) only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so we're talking about 1.8 oz. The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk. HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so. Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot. Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with te'imah. Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which "fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is. The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:35:55 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Equation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128213555.GA29555@aishdas.org> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote: >> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...." > One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and > loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha. To me shilush refers to the human condition. When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face. Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.) The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3. Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz. Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give. The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others. The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above. Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and he wants to sleep well that night too." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Tue Jan 28 13:53:07 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] truth priority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200128215307.GE29555@aishdas.org> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony > that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or > (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth ... > 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests? Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif they did, the testimony is void? Li nir'eh: We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma. And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We look forward to the time http://www.aishdas.org/asp when the power to love Author: Widen Your Tent will replace the love of power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - William Ewart Gladstone From micha at aishdas.org Wed Jan 29 11:53:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? In-Reply-To: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> References: <20200128222015.GF29555@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200129195327.GD10165@aishdas.org> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/ > Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia > By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com When we discussed this topic a decade ago (10-Oct-2009), R/Dr Prof Levine pointed us to a copy he kept of an article by R/Dr Ari Zivotofsky at https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/2016%20Kiddush%20schnapps%20RJJ.pdf Tir'u baTov! -Micha From sholom at aishdas.org Sun Feb 2 11:43:54 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Which parsha...? Message-ID: <1580762914542.2f7d92c33c16fe9c@aishdas.org> Someone in shul mused to me that parshas Ve'eria sure had a whole lot of mentions of H's name, and was wondering if that parsha had more mentions than any other parsha. I told him: I don't know, but I have some ideas on who/where to ask! Thoughts? From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 4 19:14:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 03:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? Message-ID: In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Feb 5 08:04:04 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04ce3160-8d3b-c3a9-9e5d-e781c8bd03c7@sero.name> On 4/2/20 10:14 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R?Gil Student wrote about R?C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? According to the Rosh, at least, the minhag of most (nowadays all) Chu"l communities saying tal umatar as if they were in Iraq is mistaken, and he tried his best to change it in Spain, but faced such massive opposition that he gave up and accepted the status quo. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Wed Feb 5 09:57:59 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 17:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE Message-ID: This morning while shopping I noted that many types of Arnold's bread now bear on OU DE instead of OU Pareve. The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis. Q. Is one permitted to bake DE (Dairy Equipment) bread? For example, may one bake bread on a baking pan that was previously used to bake cheese danishes? A. (The OU recently focused on this issue, as a major bread manufacturer certified by the OU requested authorization to produce OU-DE certified bread. Click here to read Rabbi Genack?s extensive teshuva on this topic.) The Pischei Teshuva (YD 97:5) rules that bread baked on dairy equipment may be consumed. He reasons that as follows: Chazal (Pesachim 46a) forbade eating dairy bread as a gezaira (a prohibitive measure), lest one forgets the dairy status of the bread and consumes it with meat. This concern is valid when the bread contains actual dairy ingredients. However, when the bread is baked on dairy equipment, the bread is technically pareve according to the Rama, but as a chumra (an extra stringency), the bread may not be eaten with meat. Bidi?eved (after the fact), the Rama agrees that DE bread mixed with meat may be consumed. The possibility that one might not remember the status of DE bread is much less of a concern than for bread that contains actual dairy, and therefore there is no restriction on consuming DE bread. This reasoning is valid according to the Rama (95:2) who allows DE items mixed with meat bidi?eved. However, the Shach (quoted in a previous Halacha Yomis) rules that pareve items baked or roasted on dairy equipment are fully dairy and may not be consumed with meat even bidi?eved. Accordingly, the Shach would forbid all consumption of DE bread. As previously noted, many poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan (95:12), are not in agreement with the Shach. We will now address the second question about bread baked on a cheese danish pan. Are pans used to bake cheese danish treated as dairy? Interestingly, this depends on how the danish was prepared. If the cheese remained inside the dough, the pan would not have the status of actual dairy, and bread baked on the pan can be eaten with pareve or dairy foods. However, if the cheese leaked out of the danish onto the pan, the Shach would consider the pan to be actual dairy even bidi?eved, and bread baked subsequently would be forbidden. ___________________________________________ Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:41:50 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:41:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim Message-ID: Questions from (another) guy in my shul: On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is trying to annul or alleviate. (And either the P"Y, or R Rosner, suggest that perhaps this is why when a crisis is facing the community, we engage in tefilla and/or recitation of tehillim). (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the chiddush in that? Do I need R Eazar to tell me that? Or, perhaps R Elazar is saying: you can do all the ma'asim tovim you want, but without tefilla, it's not going to help? But I digress....) That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. Is there any intersection of thought -- is there any influence or stira -- of R Elazar's statements to this order of words? And why does R Elazar seemingly ignore teshuva? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Wed Feb 5 05:43:55 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 08:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good place to ask ;-) Thoughts, anyone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Feb 5 18:59:15 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 02:59:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] More on OU DE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E809B88-1E18-4EBE-84F2-BA7F5BC94544@Segalco.com> Let me point out that one must look very carefully at a loaf of Arnold bread to see if it actually has OU supervision (Some Arnold bread does not have OU supervision.), and if it does, one has to look very carefully to see if after the OU there is a DE or Pareve. It seems to me that some people may end up making a cold cut sandwich with OU DE bread. -/?????????? Some context is important. As I understand it for many years the OU Used the DE designation and then changed policy because they thought it was too confusing. This led to a time Where they fielded many questions (maybe unofficially? )about what the D really meant and many people used products as if they were DE. Now apparently they?ve gone back to issuing the DE. I think a consumer awareness campaign would be worthwhile I personally prefer having the DE designation available so that people don?t just decide on their own based on the ingredients. Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:08:01 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:08:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206200801.GA20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:43:55AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > In a recent daf, we learn that all that gazillion stars were created for > us. This came right after a 15-year old yeshiva student asked me: why did > H' create all those stars. I told him I didn't know, but I knew a good > place to ask ;-) Well, if you don't take Bereishis 1 as history, or you believe in Omphalism ("the universe was created old, as though it all happened" -- RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements. The universe's size also is an effect of the kind of Inflation and Big Bang we had, or H' made a universe as thought we had. The same thing that set up many other things in physics, and is subject to our laws of physics. Which in turn would mean that to have the physics we do, we would need a universe of a certain size. (Or a universe that was obviously created in a "puff" of neis.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:24:09 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:24:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Berachos 32 - tefilla greater than ma'asim tovim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206202409.GB20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 08:41:50AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > On Berachos 32b, R Elazar says that tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim, > and a ta'anis is greater than tzedaka. The Pnei Yehoshua wonders: where's > talmud torah in all of this? Isn't talmud torah k'neged kulo? He answers > that tefilla is greater, specifically, where there is a gezeira that one is > trying to annul or alleviate... Which fits the context; the gemara is talking about Moshe davening to come to EY. > (FWIW, Tosafos there explains the first statement as ma'asim tovim with > tefilla is greater than ma'asim tovim without tefilla. But what's the > chiddush in that? ... So the Penei Yeoshua tell you to look in the Maharsha and the Mahari Pinto, who ask just your question -- of course T + MT > T. And also, why go to Moshe who excelled at everything, not the clearest maqor for this kind of comparison. The PY only gives his own answer -- obviously the sekhar of MT is greater, as they involve many mitzvos. Even if tefillah is deOraisa, which he notes is unclear. Rather, it is specifically WRT getting out of a gezeira ra'ah. Barukh shekivanta! My reaction: We're talking about Moshe level davening, and it's still not enough without maasim tovim?! The Ben Yehoyada (ad loc) says that the intent is Avos 5:21, "kol hamzakeh es harabim, tekhus harabim talui bo". So the gemara is saying that the tefillah of someone with maasim tovim is greater than the maasim tovim in and of their own zekhuyos. > That got my friend wondering about the order of words at the end of Unesana > Tokef teshuva tefilla tzedaka ma'avirin es ro'ah ha-g'zeira. And the next line in the gemara is R Elazar saying that taanis is greater than tzedaqah -- because it is done with his body, and tzedaqah is done with his money. Remember the Machzorim that have the words tzom, qol, mamon over teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, and they're all there. Tzom is a maaseh associated with teshuvah. BUT... The next line after that, also R Elazar, says that tefillah is greater that qorbanos. If the gemara were working with teshuvah, tefillah, utzdaqah, this quote wouldn't be here, it breaks the symbolism. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 6 12:33:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200206203333.GC20189@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 03:14:50AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In a recent piece on Torah Musings R'Gil Student wrote about R'C Pilaggi > mentioning minhagim which were incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to > stop them. Does anyone know the earliest example of such? This is an issue > I wonder about since we often seem to say that minhagim should continue > since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were > all holy) There are at least two ways you can ascribe importance to mimetic precedent, whether minhag or accepted pesaq, or any other of the looser usages of the word "minhag": 1- "Im lo neviim heim benei neviim heim" or "she'reis Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" mean that there is siyata diShmaya involved in what Jews end up doing. And thus Retzon haBorei blesses such practices. (In some way that doesn't violate lo bashamayim hi. Just as a poseiq's siyata diShmaya doesn't.) 2- The lack of rabbinic objection shows that generations of rabbanim found textual support for the practice. Which would rule out practices where we have a record of rabbinic protests. I brought up #2 in the early days of Avodah, when R/Dr Meir Shinnar used a mimetic argument to prove that sei'ar be'ishah ervah is das Yehudis and changes with the fashion. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I want to do it." - is weak. Author: Widen Your Tent "I am doing it." - that is the right way. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 05:00:41 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:00:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] New Haggada Available Message-ID: A new edition is now available of my "Achieving Immortality - A Haggada for Re-Experiencing the Exodus". My main goal in this Haggada is to avoid anything that would distract us from "seeing ourselves as if we left Egypt ourselves." For example, the peirushim are incorporated into the translation and instructions, rather than being relegated to the bottom of the page. Extensive footnotes for supplementary material are accessible on the bottom of each page, but for the seder itself they are in the back of the book, to be less distracting. It is available online at Lulu.com, where anyone can find it by searching for the title and/or my name. It is available in three bindings: hardcover, paperback, and a coil-bound version (which is my family's favorite because it lies flat with no effort, so yet another distraction is avoided). All three have the exact same 200-page interior. SPECIAL HALF-PRICE pricing for Avodah readers is available if you use these links: Softcover $5.97 at https://tinyurl.com/SoftcoverHaggada Coilbound $7.47 at https://tinyurl.com/CoilboundHaggada Hardcover $12.97 at https://tinyurl.com/HardcoverHaggada (plus tax and shipping, obviously) You can often get it even cheaper! Lulu often (but usually only from Monday to Thursday) offers coupon codes that you can use when you check out and pay. You can go to Lulu.com and look for the popup notice, or you can try the frequently-offered codes LULU10 (for 10% off) or ONEFIVE (for 15% off). If you'd like to see a sample of this Haggada, to better judge how much my style fits yours, you can download a 25-page sample at https://www.dropbox.com/s/eizebhfa5qtfpwo/Haggada%202020%20Excerpts.pdf?dl=0 or https://tinyurl.com/v27cwtt Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meirabi at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 17:41:39 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:41:39 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Joel Rich asked Message-ID: < BL0PR02MB37454F2E5D8D2B1D2559773EBF020 at BL0PR02MB3745.namprd02.prod.outlook.com > Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hankman at bell.net Thu Feb 6 21:01:17 2020 From: hankman at bell.net (hank) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 00:01:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] why stars? Message-ID: <20200207050117.JFSZ16482.mtlspm02.bell.net@[IPv6:::ffff:192.168.2.56]> RMB wrote: ?RMMS, for example), then you need all those nuclear reactors to make heavy elements.? That is plausible for stars within our galaxy, but not for the billions of stars in billions of galaxies far outside the milkyway galaxy. Those heavy elements could never reach us in this galaxy. Should we postulate intelligent beings in each of those distant galaxies with their own relationship to G-d for whom their stars supply heavy elements to? Kol tuv, Chaim Manaster Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Fri Feb 7 07:43:50 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 10:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - That Cannot be Stopped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/20 8:41 pm, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote: > > But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the > repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - > one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazzen. 1. As I understand it he succeeded, within his area of influence, and chazarat hashatz disappeared for several centuries, until at least the Radvaz's times. (Though his takana was only for Shacharit/Musaf on Shabbat, and for Mincha only if it was getting late.) 2. More importantly it's not an example of this phenomenon because it was *not* an incorrect minhag. Not even the Rambam claimed it was incorrect. The Rambam simply thought a new problem had arisen, which required a new takanah invoking eit laasot to override this correct minhag. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From meirabi at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 17:37:26 2020 From: meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:37:26 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim - Talking During Tefillah, That Cannot be Stopped Message-ID: R Zev Message-ID: suggested that RaMBaM, at least within his area of influence, succeeded in cancelling the Chazoras HaShaTz, and we assume also thereby reduced the talking during Tefillah. However, during the Radvaz's times, Ch HaShaTz was reintroduced which only reinforces the notion that Mistaken Minhagim, even if they can be temporarily abated, cannot be stopped Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martinlbrody at gmail.com Sat Feb 8 21:49:16 2020 From: martinlbrody at gmail.com (Martin Brody) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 21:49:16 -0800 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minchagim.... Message-ID: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Cheers, Martin Brody "Does anyone know the earliest example of minhagim which are incorrect but the Rabbis were unable to stop them? Perhaps the best example of such a Minhag is Talking During Davenning. Should this minhag continue since "obviously" earlier Rabbis approved them and the communities were all holy? But to be serious, I believe RaMBaM did his best to cancel the repetition of the ShE by the Chazan - but he should have known better - one NEVER wins an argument with a Chazze Meir G. Rabi From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Tue Feb 11 01:17:50 2020 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:17:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Feb 10, 2020 02:03:22 pm Message-ID: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Talking during prayer is not a minhag. It is a hanhagah (Hebrew, like every language, has nuanced near-synonyms in matters of importance to its speakers). Jews do not talk during prayer thinking "this is how Jews should conduct themselves", or even "this is how Jews conduct themselves", and those cognitions are part of the definition of the word "minhag". The original poster asked for mistaken minhagim, which originated in the hamon `am, and which were subsequently tolerated by the scholarly class. Talking during prayer is not a mistaken minhag, because it is not a minhag at all. A minhag that satisfies the original poster's question -- as has already been pointed out by another contributor to this mailing list -- is praying for rain, not when you need rain, but when the people of Iraq need rain. Other minhagim that satisfy the original poster's question are wearing costumes on Purim, or not cutting a boy's hair till he is three years old. And there are numerous other idolatrous practices and superstitions that are found among Jews, like tugging your ear after you sneeze, or not walking over a baby, and if you do walk over a baby, then walking backwards over the baby to undo the walking forwards. If you read classic Yiddish literature, you will learn many minhagim regarding sickness which clearly belong to the category of "halloxesh `al hammakkah" but which were nearly universal among the Jews depicted in that literature, and which are not condemned by the Yiddish-speaking scholarly class even now. The practice of not eating kitniyyoth (deliberately left untranslated) on Passover also originated in the hamon `am, and was later ratified, and even codified, by the scholarly class, but I would abolish it if I could, because, inter alia, it makes it more expensive to observe Passover, and God cares about the property of His people. There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An example of this category is the practice of earning a living from teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. An even more odious example is the practice of "kollel", which involves paying people, not even to teach Torah, but just to learn it. This is not only prohibited by Jewish law, but also condemned in the strongest terms; yet the scholarly class have taken a prohibition, and turned it into a commandment, because it benefits them. A third example is draft exemptions for yeshiva students, even though -- as has been pointed out before on this mailing list -- the halakha clearly states that "bmilxemeth mitzva hakkol yotz'im, afilu xathan mixedro vkhallah mixupathah". Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:43:23 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken minhagim Message-ID: R' Martin Brody wrote: Don't know if it's the earliest, it's certainly very old and Chazal, to Rambam rejected it. But most of y'all will be doing it next Shabbat. That is, standing for the 10 Commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Rambam's rejection can be distinguished from what we do now. The Rambam also held that we never change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta?am tachton, and so it appears we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with ta?am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, in which case it?s perfectly fine to stand. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 11 08:45:42 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah Message-ID: The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he does so here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Feb 11 10:20:47 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58288555-F618-4C81-866B-E853B664DA8C@cox.net> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who consistently stood for the entire leining. I would assume that was their minhag. The other thing I learned that many of my peers did not know and that was the halacha regarding whether you stand for the sh?ma or sit. The answer is if you are already sitting, you remain seated and conversely, if you are already standing, you remain standing. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 11 14:34:55 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 22:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should they daven? what else should they do?)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Fri Feb 14 08:25:30 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:25:30 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. I typically eat only cholov Yisrael products. Accidentally, I bought a cereal that is labeled OU-D. I checked with the OU?s Webbe Rebbe (Kosherq at OU.org) and was told the cereal does not contain actual dairy, but it is made on dairy equipment. I opened the box, and I can no longer return it to the store. May I eat the cereal? A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot must be kashered before it is re-used. Nonetheless, there are various positions among poskim regarding food that was cooked in cholov akum pots in our contemporary times. The issue revolves around the current status of commercial milk. It is well known that Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l and other contemporary poskim held that the prohibition of cholov akum does not apply to commercial milk which is regulated and monitored by government agencies. Others reject this leniency. Still a third group are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As such, there are the following positions: * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position on commercial milk would obviously have no problem cooking in pots used for cholov stam. (Cholov stam is milk that was not supervised by a mashgiach, but was produced in a dairy that is monitored for purity by government inspectors.) * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein?s lenient position in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a chumrah (stringency). This position is further split into two camps with respect to cholov stam keilim : Some are stringent only regarding actual cholov stam, but are lenient with respect to cholov stam keilim. This was the position of Rav Henkin, zt?l (Teshuvos Ivra 43). Others maintained the same stringency applies to keilim as well. Rav Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan HaLevi 22:5) writes that this was the position of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt?l. Nonetheless, one can argue that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would allow using a cholov stam pot that may have been unused for 24 hours. The basis for this is the Shach (YD 119:20) who writes that if a person has a chumra that his neighbor does not observe, he may still eat food that was cooked in his neighbors pot, so long as the food was not cooked specifically for him (i.e., the food was also cooked for those who are not strict), and it is not known if the pot was used in the past 24 hours. A similar argument can be made to permit the cereal in our original question, since it was already purchased, and it is not known if the equipment was used for dairy in the past 24 hours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 07:30:09 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] HALF A SHEKEL IS BETTER THAN NONE Message-ID: <29FD8EA8-0052-4B93-ACD1-422064094773@cox.net> As you know, this Shabbos is Shabbos Shekalim as well as Shabbos M'vorchim. I'm reminded of the Hazzan who was chanting the Rosh Chodesh Bentching and was very careful not to repeat words. But he had to fit the melody to the prayer so he sang ".....chayim she parnoso, chayim shel shekalim....." At least the uninformed realized it was Shabbos Shekalim. The Mishna Meg. 3:4 explains in the days of the monarchy, the shekel tax had become a permanent institution, and its proceeds together with other freewill offerings were used to maintain and repair the Temple (ll Kings 12:15-17; 22:3-7). Since the shekel tax was due on the first of Nisan, the Rabbis ordained that this section (30:11-16) be read as an added Torah portion about a month before: on the Shabbos before the new moon of Adar or on Rosh Chodesh itself, if it fell on Shabbos. Because of this added reading the Sabbath has become known as Shabbos Shekalim. (There is also a talmudic treatise called Shekalim). L?havdil, as a side, Christian Scriptures, Matthew 17:27, notes that Peter paid the tax for both himself and his master. The Zionist movement at its first congress (1897) revived the shekel as a common expression of support for Eretz Yisroel. The number of shekel holders became an indication of the strength of political Zionism. There were 165,000 in 1907 and in 1946 there were 2,160,000. In Yalkut Me'am Lo'ez. Sh?mos, Vol.lll, pp. 1068-1069, the question is asked why the sum chosen for expiation was fixed at one-half shekel (30:15). The reason was because Joseph had been sold into Egypt by his brothers for twenty dinars, i.e. five shekels. There being ten brothers, this amounted to a profit of one-half shekel for each. Another explanation: It was expiation for the sin of the golden calf. (Though this sin is told later, in chapter 32, the comment is based on the talmudic principle of Ein mukdam um'uchar baTorah. This same issue is raised in Mishpatim because Ch.24 shifts from the laws, that have been the subject of the Sidrah, back to the Revelation at Sinai. There is a machlokes among the m'forshim regarding when the events in this chapter took place. According to Rashi, the events recorded in verses 1-11 occurred before the Ten Commandments were given. Ramban, Ibn ezra, Rashbam, among others, maintain that these events took place after Israel had received the Ten Commandments and Moses had taught them the laws of the previous 3 chapters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Feb 16 12:52:19 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 15:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag Message-ID: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> I?m not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until ?Im kesef talve.? And the second week is the second half. I don?t know which haftarah they use for the second week. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 17 20:52:17 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:52:17 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Interesting Minhag In-Reply-To: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> References: <7110D4CE-CA14-4FC7-866B-713FA48F0DEC@cox.net> Message-ID: <20200218045217.GA2684@aishdas.org> On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 03:52:19PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I'm not sure if it is Tunisia and Algeria, but there was definitely > a minhag whereby the parsha Mishpatim was divided into two parshiyot > read separately on consecutive weeks. The first parsha goes until "Im > kesef talve." And the second week is the second half. I don't know which > haftarah they use for the second week. I had always wondered why the standard chapterization of the Seifer haChinukh starts a new parashash there. I was wondering if this was an actual minhag, or just a way to split up the 52 mitzvos that are in Mishpatim to more managable chapters. Now I know! Thanks. The Chinukh was written by R Aharon haLeci in Barcelona in the 13th cent. Although the chapterization may be far later, so I don't know what that says about the scope and evolution of that minhag. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Feb 18 13:51:24 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim Message-ID: Heard in a daf yomi shiur -- R Sholom Rosner was: -- critical of minhag of oleh to not say birkas hatorah on tochacha -- critical of the minhag that women don't make a mezumin when they are three on their own; or, if with 10 men, not answering the mizumin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:23:05 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:23:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Feb 18 22:25:46 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:25:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers Message-ID: I spent some time looking for commentaries explaining the focus on the donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers. I realize it's probably projection but I came up with two possibilities. The first was that many places the donkey seems to be taking somebody to their destiny (Think avraham Moshe bilaam......)I was thinking when they might've been concerned that they would be unable to fulfill theirs My other thought was that they represented technological extensions Of human ability ( think vcivshuha) And they would be unable to fulfill their human capabilities and be no more than another animal Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at chamor and saw chomer(material world) Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Feb 20 11:11:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200220191100.GA15866@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:23:05AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: > But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? In terms of the tech, we're not close yet, and may never be. To weave a derashah into my explanation of that sentence, the word "binah" can refer to thought in at least two ways: - from "bein", the art of making distinctions -- bein qodesh lekhol, bein or lechoshekh... Being able to characterize this as an A, that as a B, this is spam, this is not spam. And when things are not separated: this A and B share features that would allow them to belong to the same font, whereas that A & B are in another. Finding the limits of sets, to know what to separate. That's what AI is now doing. Using what boils down to a lot of linear algebra to draw lines between sets using known examples of what's in and what's out. That can be obvious in cases of AI reading CT or MRI scans. But that is also how automous vehicles decide when to change lanes, accelerate, or whatnot. There are two sets: a right time and a wrong time. - from "binyan", the art of combining facts. Whether making deductions of the sort you did formally in Geomatry class, or inductions -- figuring out that those sets even exist. There is AI that does binyan-binah. It is very simple, generally just searching the space of possibilities until it hits sueccess (as defined for it). That's not what ML is about, and it's not where we are close to the commercial application. And may never be. Then there is informal thought. Conclusions you can only reach because you not only have a concept of red in your head, but you know what it is like to see red. (Apologies to the color blind for that example.) In terms of hashkafah... I argued that lo bashamayim hee has more to do with whose hands halakhh is in than whose it isn't. A pesaq can only come from someone who (to jump ahead to the end of the statement) "befikha ublivavkha la'asoso". Related to that knowing what red is *like*, knowing what moral is *like* is arguably a fundamental element of what a poseiq brings to the question. And even if that argument fails hashkafically, halachically pro forma a poseiq must be a mentally competent Jewish male adult who you believed has the appropriate knowledge, ability and experience (experiential knowledge?). It's the difference between whether any error would be your aveira beshogeig or your doing the right thing in following a pesaq. (And the the case of a human poseiq, their shogeig.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything. http://www.aishdas.org/asp If you want time, you must make it. Author: Widen Your Tent - Charles Buxton - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From cantorwolberg at cox.net Fri Feb 21 05:54:14 2020 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Purim Twist Message-ID: <810C4798-B74F-40A2-B8AA-1CF357667DF4@cox.net> 1) We're all familiar with the custom and law of making much noise when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the Megilla. The standard answer to why we do it is to drown out his name. I see another reason. We must make a lot of noise against EVIL. Haman, a descendant of Amalek, is evil personified. We cannot be silent in the face of evil. We must yell, shout, and make all the noise we can. (Does this sound timely)? 2) If we were asked the etymology of the word "Megilla," we would say it comes from the word galal, "to roll." The word gelila, "wrapping the Torah" also comes from the same root. I came across a nice midrashic twist. As we know the word "Esther" has as its root "samech, tof, reish" for hidden. Interestingly, Megilla has been explained to have the root giluy, which means "revealed." Hence, we have a major theme for the Megilla -- revealing that which is hidden. From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Feb 21 07:49:15 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] AI/ML(Machine learning) Message-ID: "Rich, Joel" wrote: Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator: But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates. In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say machine only!) Any thoughts on how this might play out? I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article (to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts. In it, he talks about future possibilities. https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/ (PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form already.) It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether the machine-made connections make sense or not. -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 11:58:18 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:58:18 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15814342710.dCe4.2063@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: > There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon > `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned > by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An > example of this category is the practice of earning a living from > teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law. Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like the Rambam. There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo. (Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but the Bartenura disagrees apparently.) R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah to make your daily bread? Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original: Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for, and not the learning itself. Thinking out loud: The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod, that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution instead of just "don't take pay". But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that "most". On to a very different topic, same subject line... On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > I recall in my youth that there were individuals who > consistently stood for the entire leining. I would > assume that was their minhag. My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian. Amu"sh.) My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk, not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam, and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing for the diberos: > he Rambam also held that we never > change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that > we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears > we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts. > My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with > ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah, > in which case it's perfectly fine to stand. Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for everything. Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos. Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean a- pesaqim specific to a community b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin c- ... anything else? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:45:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour to chatzos is only bedi'eved. So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Mon Feb 24 12:53:40 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200224205340.GB9637@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at : chamor and saw chomer(material world) The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they are in charge of their chomer side. Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason" symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me, I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Feb 24 18:58:03 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:58:03 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven is at the beginning of that time range? --------------------------- At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan KT Joel THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Tue Feb 25 09:00:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: <20200224204519.GA9637@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200225170034.GI27056@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best > practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should > they daven? what else should they do?)? I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved or hefsed situations. But I was confused about the first question: >> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day, >> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven >> is at the beginning of that time range? On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening > with a minyan The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at haneitz. In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar. Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else is also yotzei. Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.) Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan. The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema (Rambam). Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Feb 26 04:50:01 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:50:01 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply z'rizin makdimin. I'm even tempted to say that it has nothing to do with z'rizin makdimin, and the proof is that the same pasuk is used for two purposes: Shacharis at the very beginning of the day, and also Mincha at the very end. Mechaber 89:1 - "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." Brachos 29b - R' Yochanan said, "It's a mitzva to pray when the sun is red." R' Zeira said, "What's the pasuk? Yira'ucha im shamesh, v'lifnay yare'ach, dor dorim." (Tehillim 72:5) Brachos 29b Rashi - "Yira'ucha im shamesh" - This is Tefilas Yotzer. "V'lifnay yare'ach" - This is Tefilas Mincha. Shabbos 118b Rashi - "V'lifnay yare'ach" - Prior to the light of the moon, while the sun has not yet set. Brachos 29b Steinzaltz - "When the sun is red" - Tefilas Yotzer with Haneitz Hachama, and Tefilas Mincha with Shkias Hachama. Brachos 29b ArtScroll note 11 - These two times (just after sunrise and just prior to sunset) are the most propitious for reciting the morning and afternoon Prayers respectively. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva ( http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24777) which says: "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day to pray - "with sunrise." And optimal time for the Minchah prayer is at the end of the day, as the sun is setting - "before the moon." I believe that the above is true l'halacha, but in the l'maaseh there is a very big difference between Shacharis and Mincha, perhaps explained best by Gemara Brachos 29b, immediately after the line I quoted above. "In the west [Eretz Yisrael] they would curse someone who davens [Mincha] when the sun gets red. Why? Because he might miss the zman." In order words, there is no downside to saying Shacharis at the very earliest time, but there is a very great danger in delaying Mincha to the very latest time. I suspect that this is why discussions about the time for Mincha center on "How early CAN I daven", and not on "When is the BEST time to daven." Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Feb 26 07:10:59 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Haneitz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200226151059.GE3829@aishdas.org> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:50am EST, R Akiva Miller wrote: > R' Micha Berger wrote: >> So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila. > The importance of saying Shacharis at Haneitz is much more than simply > z'rizin makdimin... Which is why my post continued. As I noted, the Rambam says it's the sole right time, and everything else is inferior. Why would he say that? Likely the pasuq the machaber quotes: > Mechaber 89:1 -- "The time for Tefilas Hashachar: Its mitzva is that one > should begin with Haneitz Hachama, as it is written, Yira'ucha Im Shamesh." And so, I concluded that the main reason is being chosheish for the Rambam's reasoning. But even if your confidence in halachic process is such that you don't need to go beyond the Tur's shitah and minhag yisrael, there is still zerizim maqdimin. But there is more! Because doing anything before minyan is lesse Majeste or borders on it. (Thus we don't eat before davening, uless needed for davening, we don't go in order to greet people...) So, there is more drive for "as early as possible" than most mitzvos. And I think that is why: > Unfortunately, I was unable to find any mention of this in the poskim, > other than a reference to the writings of Rav Kook at Arutz Sheva > () which says: > "The best time for the Shacharit prayer is the first opportunity of the day > to pray -- "with sunrise."... I have heard Breslover speakers argue similarly. Kevasiqin is for OT1H chassidim and other benei aliyah who want to follow the beautiful idea in the pasuq in Tehillim, and OTOH for Briskers and the sort who are regularly chosheshim for rejected shitos. But never caught on among those in the middle. (It is also more common among actual vasiqin, as waking up enough before haneitz to catch a minyan kevasiqin is frustratingly common among the more "ancient" among us. That's when my father amu"sh started.) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" -- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -- Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From eliturkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 14:17:58 2020 From: eliturkel at gmail.com (Eli Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 00:17:58 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus Message-ID: halkachic cautions in the face of coronavirus https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/02/precautions-in-shul-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus/ -- Eli Turkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 13:31:37 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Mistaken Minhagim In-Reply-To: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> References: <20200224195818.GA7545@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200301213137.GA13398@aishdas.org> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote: > Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean > a- pesaqim specific to a community > b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin > c- ... anything else? RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis until marriage. Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes, it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's all post facto. And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost. So there is a (c) for my list c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic. Anyone have a suggestion for (d)? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 14:02:05 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following: > A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1) > writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot > must be kashered before it is re-used... > are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but > nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As > such, there are the following positions: > * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be > halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as > non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above. > * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient > position on commercial milk would... > * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position > in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a > chumrah... This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's, as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago). But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation. Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify. Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against adulterating his milk. Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS. Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly (YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews. Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all. So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or that of another CY eater.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The meaning of life is to find your gift. http://www.aishdas.org/asp The purpose of life Author: Widen Your Tent is to give it away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Pablo Picasso From larry62341 at optonline.net Sun Mar 1 15:35:52 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 18:35:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly. For example, I recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold in NY as kosher was actually treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper kashrus standards.. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Sun Mar 1 15:58:22 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (micha at aishdas.org) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <07ea01d5f025$4c5d3250$e51796f0$@aishdas.org> From: Prof. Levine Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST > At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote: >> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s. >> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already >> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY. >> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras. > Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for > those who wanted to keep kosher properly... But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened? My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical, since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting pesaq halakhah. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From JRich at Segalco.com Sun Mar 1 20:11:23 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 04:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> <33.1A.07714.3084C5E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label. -------------------------------------- And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Mon Mar 2 07:30:52 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > following the Peri Chadash against the CS. Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all he does is cite the Radvaz? > So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes > is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or > that of another CY eater.) Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was used with was non-CY milk. If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed up in good faith. But if you hold that it's actually kosher then there's no problem in the first place. And if you're kind of in the middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as snifim lehakel. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Mon Mar 2 13:01:34 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: <20200301220205.GB13398@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200302210134.GC3266@aishdas.org> On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. > Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all > he does is cite the Radvaz? I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse. -Micha From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:34:37 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mezuzah checked Message-ID: From the OU: Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done? A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years (i.e., every 3? years). ......... Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions of their rav when a question would be appropriate. Thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:57 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot Message-ID: From R'Rimon in Hamizrachi: "In light of the above (me - shtarei hedyotot et al) it would be best if there were no ads at all in our Parshat Hashavua sheets"..... "However it is very difficult to abide by these demands in our times because it's the ads that fund the publication"... "Still it would be worth having clear guidelines" This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." I'd really appreciate a better understanding of the halachic force of this consideration. Oh, and did the publishers of Hamizrachi appreciate the irony of this article appearing in their publication with advertisement which is distributed in many shuls on Shabbat? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 10:59:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 13:59:21 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self Message-ID: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Experiencing the tzelem Elokim as proof there is an Elokim? See https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/search-soul-john-cottingham-review or http://bit.ly/3czL1aK Snippets / teasers: New Statesman The paradox of an atheist soul Why the idea of a single self only makes sense in a theistic world. By John Gray There are many arguments for theism, most of them not worth rehearsing. ... A different and more interesting approach is to argue that theism is suggested by the fact that we experience ourselves as unified, conscious beings - in other words, as having a soul. Not necessarily an immaterial entity, the soul is the part of us that strives to realise what is best in our nature. We do not come to know the soul through any special revelation. We know it by considering the kind of creature we find ourselves to be - a thinking being inhabiting a life-world that seems to reflect a mind greater than our own. Once we realise we have a soul, theism becomes a credible way of thinking. Such is the approach adopted in this lucid and illuminating book by John Cottingham, professor of the philosophy of religion at University of Roehampton.... Cottingham presents a version of the transcendental argument deployed by the German Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804). A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, it asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are accepted as given. Kant used it to support his belief in a universal moral law and, at points in his writings, the existence of God. As used by Cottingham, its purpose is to refute the Scottish sceptic David Hume (1711-1776), whom Kant described as "having interrupted my dogmatic slumber". In A Treatise of Human Nature (1739), Hume had written that the self is "nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed one another with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement". If the self is not an autonomous entity but an assemblage of sensations Kant's theistic faith crumbles into dust. Cottingham spells out the connection between theism and the idea of the self: It is a fundamental theistic belief, following the words of Genesis, that human beings are made "in the image" of God; and this is taken to be especially true in virtue of our conscious minds, in virtue of our attributes of intellect and will. Theism thus posits a source of ground of all being that is somehow mind-like: consciousness is taken to be at the heart of reality. The theistic picture tends to be discarded or ignored by the majority of contemporary philosophers, but it seems perverse to dismiss it from consideration should it turn out to fit rather well with certain aspects of reality that cannot in integrity be denied... [such as] the irreducible reality of consciousness. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy. http://www.aishdas.org/asp I awoke and found that life was duty. Author: Widen Your Tent I worked and, behold -- duty is joy. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabindranath Tagore From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 4 11:15:13 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> In a recent post in Torah Musings , R Daniel Mann answers a question about a new practice some have regarding parashas Zakhor. Again, snippets: Question: My shul has always read Parashat Zachor once, with our regular havara (pronunciation). Some people now complain that we do not follow other shuls and read multiple times with different havarot to fulfill the mitzva according to more opinions and to do the mitzva properly for Sephardim. Should we change our minhag? First he brings arguments that one doesn't need correct havara to be yotzei. Whether because the deOraisa doesn't need to be in lashon haqodesh, or perhaps has no specific text, or RMF's (IM OC 3:5) proof from chalitza that havara is not meqev, or that an Ashkenzi who doesn't distinguish between alef and ayin may serve as chazan for Ashkenazim... The latter two arguments saying that "correct havarah" is societal. Still, one might need to have Parashas Zakhor available in many havaros if the community is of people of different eidos. At least as a chumerah. But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... Several (Teshuvot V'hanhagot ibid.; Halichot Shlomo ibid.; Aseh Lecha Rav VI:22) mention hearing of such a new practice and consider it strange. They reject it as being disrespectful to the tzibbur, to the rest of our lainings, and/or to past generations who did not do such things. I would not criticize a minyan that decides to do so anyway (some fine places do), and there are circumstances in which there is a stronger argument (e.g., there is no minyan in the area of other eidot), but it is wrong to criticize the normal minhag for not adopting this innovation. In the early days of the list, I was particularly prone to Brisker chumeros (trying to be yotzei as many shitos as possible) or to chumeros or pesaqim that allow expression of how I understood the mitzvah hashkafically. I think learning a cycle and a fraction of AhS Yomi has toned that down. At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of confidence in the halachic process. As for hashkafically motivated pesaq, that's still with me more. But I think I've gotten to an age where I finally understand the value of continuity as well. (I mentioned before, though, my mother's observation about the family she married in to. My grandfather got to the US too young to be aware of most of his minhagim and therefore ended up acting as per R/Dr Mirsky's shiurim. My father's decades of "the Rav's" (RYBS's) Tues night shiur, and repreatedly took on the implications of those shiurim. And then my own habits. Doing what fits what we learned in shiur last IS the onky continuity my family practice has.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Live as if you were living already for the http://www.aishdas.org/asp second time and as if you had acted the first Author: Widen Your Tent time as wrongly as you are about to act now! - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning From larry62341 at optonline.net Wed Mar 4 11:36:42 2020 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36.2D.07714.B14006E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:25 PM 3/4/2020, R. Joel Rich wrote: >People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients >listed on the label. > >-------------------------------------- >And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)" >KT >Joel Rich Since when to two wrongs make a right? Also one has to keep in mind that in many places everything was made from scratch. My mother-in-law comes from a small town in Hungary. There was essentially no prepared anything. Baking was done at home, meat and chickens were kashered at home, etc. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Fri Mar 6 08:19:30 2020 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: Good stuff from Rav Aviner: http://www.ravaviner.com/2020/03/hilchot-corona.html Some of the questions include: Q: Is one obligated to listen to the instructions of the Ministry of Health regarding Corona? Q: Does one fulfill the Mitzvah of Bikur Cholim on the phone? Q: If a person is in quarantine for Corona, what does he do about Davening in a Minyan? Q: Should one refrain from kissing Mezuzot on account of Corona? Q: How could someone get sick with Corona while hearing the Megillah when the Gemara states, "Harm will not befall one on the way to perform a Mitzvah"? Q: What is Hashem trying to teach us with the Corona Virus in the world? and many more -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 17:58:20 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing > practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, > some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different minhagim? -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From zev at sero.name Sat Mar 7 18:25:10 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 21:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > accepted as given. One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is universal. "Kol echad be`atzmo shi`er", and assumed everyone else must be the same. If that assumption is not true, it can lead to utter confusion, as people debate at cross-purposes, each completely unable to understand the other's arguments. See, for an example, https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example There was a debate, in the late 1800s, about whether "imagination" was simply a turn of phrase or a real phenomenon. That is, can people actually create images in their minds which they see vividly, or do they simply say "I saw it in my mind" as a metaphor for considering what it looked like? Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even existed. The debate was resolved by Francis Galton, a fascinating man who among other achievements invented eugenics, the "wisdom of crowds", and standard deviation. Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images. Dr. Berman dubbed this the Typical Mind Fallacy: the human tendency to believe that one's own mental structure can be generalized to apply to everyone else's. -- Zev Sero Have a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:23:48 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Hilchot Corona Message-ID: > One should therefore refrain from touching or kissing Mezuzot. < My practice for some time has been to "point to" (essentially, reach towards but not touch) the m'zuzah as I pass (and when I leave my house, to say, "Baruch ata b'vo'echa, uvaruch ata b'tzeisecha"). However, having trouble getting used to a clenched-fist (and hate the dangerous elbow) greeting... :). --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:53:00 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:53:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: R' Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. Very well phrased! I have often felt this way, but was unable to find the words to express it. Thank you. For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Mon Mar 9 07:09:31 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Micha Berger wrote: > At this point, Brisker chumeros seem to me more a lack of > confidence in the halachic process. ----------------------------------- Or a lack of confidence in oneself (or their ability/worthiness to decide)? I often think of R? Schachter comparing the personalities of R? Chaim and the Netziv and wonder if this could be explained on that basis. Enough said? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 11 11:47:14 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:47:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] NYT Ethicist Message-ID: NYT Ethicist - What would halacha be? Q.I have been struck by a fatal disease, inherited from my father. I have children, who know they have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the disease from me. I have several siblings. One has children of her own. She has so far refused to be tested on the off chance that she, too, has the gene. This means that her children don't know anything about the cause of my disease. There are interventions that could protect any future grandchildren, but her children don't know they are in danger of passing the disease along. I have been tempted to tell my sister's children myself, but I know this would result in a major breach in our relationship (a real loss to me). What is my ethical responsibility here? Name Withheld A. ... The trouble isn't that your sister refuses to be tested. That's her choice. ... The trouble is that she wants to prevent her children from knowing what she already knows. By keeping them in the dark, she's robbing them of the ability to make their own choices. And here's a critical point. Even if they declined to be tested themselves, simply knowing that they're at risk would enable them to protect any children they might have in the future, through "nondisclosure testing." Clinics can conduct pre?implantation embryo screening without sharing the results with the at-risk parent... Preserving your own uncertainty is defensible; putting others in jeopardy is not... As painful as a breach in your relationship with your sister would be, it's clear that your sister's misguided plan is itself weighing heavily on you. Urge her to level with her children about the facts. (She could implore them not to tell her if they are tested and get a positive result.) Were she still to refuse, tell them yourself. KT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:53:57 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [TM] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations In-Reply-To: References: <20200304191513.GA24116@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200311205357.GG11689@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 08:58:20PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 2:15 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> But what really struck me was the close. As it also relates to the growing >> practice of multiple shofar blowings to make sure some are al pi Rashi, >> some with Brisker shevarim, shevarim-teruh in one breath or two, etc... > How to distinguish this from the universally accepted practice of blowing 30 > kolot instead of 9, in order to blow the 9 according to three different > minhagim? Chazal wanted everyone doing the same thing, but rather than mandate one definition of the teru'ah to the exclusion of the others, we all do all three of them. This innovation breaks from everyone doing the same. But more than that... Chazal had the power to pasqen and would have pasqened if they didn't feel this compromise brought more achdus. Being chosheish for shitas Rashi after centuries of no one (or kim'at no one) blew according to shitas Rashi is an unwillingness to pasqen. And an unwillingness to accept that the halachic process can actually say A is right and B wrong. It's questioning the whole concept of pesaq! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger It's never too late http://www.aishdas.org/asp to become the person Author: Widen Your Tent you might have been. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - George Eliot From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:02:48 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] S"A 167:4 - ten fingers on your challah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311200248.GD11689@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 11:45:42AM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > The Mechaber, at 167:4, notes that when we say hamotzie, we should be > holding the challah with 10 fingers, and he then proceeds to give six > different reasons. (I'll add the the Tur also gives a number of reasons). > > This seems kind of rare for the S"A to do that. Does anybody know why he > does so here? Never found an answer, and a month later, I'm giving up. BUT, I liked the Y-mi's explanation at the end of Challah pereq 1 (vilna daf 9b) cited at the SA ad loc by the Gra -- OC 167 s"q 4 . The ten fingers are a reminder of the 10 mitzvos it took to get the bread: 1- Lo sacharosh - Not plowing with a kelaim of animals 2- Bal tizra - Not planting kelaim 3- Bal tachsom - Not muzzling the animals to keep them from eating 4- Leqet 5- Shikhechah 6- Pei'ah 7- Terumah 8- Maaser Rishon 9- Maaser Sheini (or Maaser Ani, depending on the year, though not mentioned in the Y-mi) 10- Challah Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:20:47 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live R Ari Kahn (of Bar Ilan) came out in favor of such readings, the mar'eh meqomos for his shiur are available at https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2020/03/hearing-megillah-over-telephone-or.html AIUI, RAK's primary concern was to reassure people who have no choice, and to make sure questionable cases don't risk spreading disease by showing up. So he really presents the case for only one side. RGS pointed people to R Daniel Z Feldman's (RIETS) older piece (not reflecting this year's she'as hadechaq) in Tradition at https://traditiononline.org/the-virtual-minyain which gives both sides of the story. I tried to lend my megillah to someone so that they could listen to the above-linked reading at YU and read along from a kosher megillah. But, my livingroom is being painted, the bookcase where I keep my megillah was among those boxed up, and someone else beat me to the mitzvah. In Westchester County, NY, Chabad managed to organize leining for 100 quarantined people by having the baal qeriah read on a deck or porch, outside an open door or window. But such arrangements are not available to everyone. I saw on Facebook the following social concern that I thought was interesting and valid enough to share here. https://www.facebook.com/matthew.kritz.9/posts/2899197760173502 R Matthew Nitzanim writes (in part): This is why I fear the live-feed Megillah readings. There is no doubt that it is the most practical solution to ensure more people hear the Megillah, without risking more people catching the virus, and there is arguably halachic grounds to allow the practice (even as the debate continues), especially under these extenuating circumstances. But once virtual readings are normalized, what will Purim look like next year? I'm not too worried about no one showing up for Megillah next year - we all know it's more fun to boo for Haman and show off our costumes with friends around. But what about all those people who are alone, boxed out of society? Will the hospital and the rehab center call the local yeshiva for volunteers to come visit, or will they suffice with arranging a dial-in reading (which will inevitably come to be replaced with a recording for those who can't distinguish)? Will the readers and merry-makers of years past feel less push to pay visits when the mitzvah can be fulfilled electronically? Certainly this change wouldn't happen in just one year, but perhaps we are setting a precedent that will be taken seriously in years to come. Because what's at stake is not merely the obligation to hear the Megillah. What is at stake is the future of community and interpersonal connection in the age of digital media. Performing one of our most communal mitzvot through a screen means radically reimagining the very meaning of community, a process that is already well underway. Among the Orthodox, the study of Torah, traditionally intended to bring people into the same room, is increasingly done via recorded shiurim. Elsewhere in the Jewish world, services are taped and can be watched from home, and you can even find a dial-in Kaddish minyan. And shout out to the various Skype Seudot and Zoom Tishes spreading Purim cheer to the quarantined. Each of these is an exciting way digital communication can be used to better include those would otherwise be left out. But if we aren't careful with the pace of development, we will end up creating tools that, although intended to increase connection and participation, will further distance and disenfranchise those who were already only hoping for a visitor or two, and will be left with nothing but a computer screen. What we are watching is reminiscent of the Conservative Movement's ruling permitting driving on Shabbat -- intended to increase access to communal life, but perhaps in the process weakening the physical proximity that keeps community alive, with only time to tell whether the benefits outweigh the costs. So too with screen talk: appealing as it may be in this moment, down the road, we risk harming the very deep sense of community that held us together in ancient Persia and through the ages to this very day. Maybe this is a moment where we would benefit from Halacha being less accommodating of the present, and more oppositional and countercultural.... So he recommends making a heqer: So be cautious this Purim, not only hygienically, but spiritually too. If I had a say, I would encourage those who are doing the holy work of reading Megillah by livestream for people in quarantine not to say the Brachot, even if they are also reading for themselves, to make clear that this is a sub par, temporary fix, and not necessarily an ideal, long term change. And finally, this nice thought is off topic for the thread, but worth sharing: More importantly, for everyone stuck at home this Purim, please take it upon yourself, once your quarantine is LONG SINCE OVER, to pay a visit to someone who feels alone for more than two weeks at a time. It can be next Purim, or maybe even sooner. Take your experience of being homebound, and allow it to be a springboard for being more aware of the many, many people who would give anything not to be alone, to be greeted by a friendly face with a warm smile, by someone who remembered that it's Purim for them too. More than an ecard, or a phone call, or a Zoom chat, what they really want to see is you. qiyum is suboptimal. -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:28:21 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] shtarei hedyotot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200311202821.GF11689@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > This reminded me of tshuvot that explain why we ignore the lifesaving > priorities in Horiyot based on "it's difficult to abide..." What the "this" was aside, I didn't think that's why we ignore those priorities. Rather, it ends up never being halakhah lemaaseh even from day one. The mishnah itself says these priorities are "all else being equal". And all else is never equal. The reisha is just one triage factor among many. The problem, thus, isn't abiding, but in deciding which mamzer is enough of a talmid chakham to go ahead of the kohein gadol, or which baal chessed outranks the innate qedushah of a kohein. Or... Lack of ability to assess, not lack of emotional constitution to follow through. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Problems are not stop signs, http://www.aishdas.org/asp they are guidelines. Author: Widen Your Tent - Robert H. Schuller - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From rygb at aishdas.org Wed Mar 11 13:56:30 2020 From: rygb at aishdas.org (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:56:30 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or rimon? On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos > that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic > transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > > From penkap at panix.com Wed Mar 11 18:28:28 2020 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Parashat Zachor with Different Pronunciations Message-ID: ? For example, I often find popular articles about halacha which will say something like, "It is questionable whether the halacha is this or that, so one should ..." I find myself yelling at the page: "It's questionable? So answer the question!" ?And yet, it is common to find this same idea offered by the Mishne Brurah and others, not to mention the eponymous Briskers. ?So when is it appropriate and when not? This is too subjective for me to answer. The individual must ask himself honestly whether it is truly too difficult to decide which view to pasken like, or whether the "Brisker chumra" is just a lazy cop-out. ?A second question he should ask himself is whether the question even *needs* an answer. If it is not a d'Oraisa or even d'Rabbanan issue, then perhaps there's no real halachic difference between the two possible answers, and each person should choose for himself which he prefers.? The amount of sechel in this comment is almost overwhelming. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 11 21:26:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Perhaps one can add as a snif to "permit" it the Chasam Sofer on Hil' Kidush Levana, citing a case during a cholera epidemic in Cracow, when the rov of the time found a heter to say kidush levana on the 16th night so that people who would not otherwise be able to say it should not get depressed and ch"v endanger themselves. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 05:58:07 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: On Areivim, the issue was raised that the shuls in Bergen County NJ are now closed, and the question of "house minyanim" was raised too. I have a question about house minyanim that I'd like to discuss. My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. Once that minyan exists, additional people can be in adjoining rooms, provided that they can see and hear. I've often been at house minyanim where fewer people are in the room with the Shliach Tzibur, and the rest are in an adjoining room. The doorway between them is so wide that people don't give it a second thought. It seems to me that even though there is no actual door separating these two rooms, the fact that there's a mezuzah between them might define them as distinct rooms for the halacha of establishing a minyan. I hope I have explained the situation clearly enough. The MB does not seem to specify the width of the doorway in question, nor did I see any distinction between a "doorway" and an "open door". I suppose someone could argue that the problem exists only for standard-width doors which happen to be open at the moment, and that there's no problem for a living room and dining room that happen to have a mezuzah between them. Has anyone see any poskim write about this? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:02:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:02:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] hand shake Message-ID: Listened to a shiur where the magid shiur said that R'X used to advise job interviewees to use the dead fish handshake, then later advised the iron man handshake until he was told that each of those would not get you a job. Now he advises a firm, quick business-like handshake. May I vent - I heard R'X say these things over the years and always wondered who he had asked about the real world. How many job opportunities were lost?? etc.?? How much of a responsibility does a poseik have to determine "reality"? (Another example - toveiling electronics) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 18 00:04:17 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals Message-ID: Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 18 08:05:11 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> On 18/3/20 3:04 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Question: How would (should?) the fact that we generally eat three meals > per day rather than two (as they did in Talmudic times) be reflected in > halachic if at all? (e.g. eating pre-mincha davening) I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and condiments to make the bread taste better. Sometimes a grain porridge would substitute for the bread, but the essential roles were the same. To us, the bread, if it appears at all, is a condiment or entree to the real food. We don't eat bread with meat, we eat meat with bread. Even with grains, we regard them as a side dish, not as the main part of the course. So in principle the entire basis of hil' bh"n should be reversed. Next: Undoing the whole concept of 7 mashkim, and the principle that the juice of any fruit but grapes and olives is not a mashkeh. Not just in hil' bh"n and shabbos, but also in hil' taharos. (At least in principle, since they're not practical halachos anyway.) -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 11:33:16 2020 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:33:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] House minyanim Message-ID: In Avodah V38n19, RAMiller noted: > My understanding of Mechaber 55:13 and MB 55:48 is that a proper house minyan has the Shliach Tzibur and nine other men in one single room. < But see the latter half of BH 55:14/MB 55:50. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Sun Mar 15 18:42:51 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a kosher Purim and a happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper _______________________________________________ Areivim mailing list Areivim at lists.aishdas.org http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 19 07:10:49 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 4 amos and Epidimeology Message-ID: <20200319141049.GA17120@aishdas.org> Is it "coincidence" or do you think it's common cause: The recommended distance to be sure we don't breathe on each other is given as 6 feet or 2 m, depending on what the masses being recommended to think in. Which "just happens to be" just around the 4 amos radius used to define a person's space for the sake of davening or acquisitions. (As an ammah is defined by to the Rambam, R Chaim Naeh, and the plaque on the wall found at Chizqiyahu's water tunnel. Not the CI. Would tzadiq gozer veE' meqayeim mean that people need to be be staying farther apart in Bnei Braq to be safe?) -Micha -- Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy' http://www.aishdas.org/asp 'Joy is nothing but Torah.' Author: Widen Your Tent 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l From JRich at Segalco.com Thu Mar 19 09:23:50 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Limiting gathering numbers In-Reply-To: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> References: <7681d7aa-abf2-689d-7445-35e350f5f033@sero.name> Message-ID: There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. =================================== He also said (From R' Torcyner translation): And after each prayer, evening and morning, they should recite Tehillim, certain psalms which his honour should select, and then the text of Kel rachum sh'mecha, Aneinu Hashem aneinu, Mi she'anah, and the Y'hi ratzon after Tehillim, mentioning in it the king, may Gd protect him, and his children and nobles and all who live in his land. IMHO the last part is also about the realization that a united community response is required bderech hateva (not each subsegment deciding on its own what to do) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 05:20:08 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:20:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger by R Herschel Schachter Message-ID: <20200320122008.GA4902@aishdas.org> This is an abornamlly long piece for Facebook, but it's making the rounds there. :-)BBii! -Micha The Correct Behavior When Dealing with Danger Rav Hershel Schachter Many have the mistaken impression that the Jewish religion places much emphasis on death and respect for the dead; after all, we recite kaddish, yizkor, observe shiva, and yahrzeit, etc. This is a gross misunderstanding. The respect that we show for the dead is a carryover from the respect that we show for the living. The Gemorah (Kesubos 17a, see Shitah Mekubetzes) tells us that whenever there is a conflict between kovod ha'chayim and kovod ha'meisim, kovod ha'chaim takes precedence. When the chevra kadisha brings in the aron at a funeral, everyone stands up. People mistakenly think that we stand up out of respect for the niftar, but in many cases we never stood up for him when he was alive, so why should we stand up for him now that he passed away? The Bartenurah (Mishnayos Bikurim 3:3) explains that we are not standing up out of respect for the niftar but rather out of respect for the members of the chevra kaddisha who are presently involved in the fulfillment of a mitzvah. The respect for the living is based on the premise that all human beings were created b'tzelem Elokim. When the Torah requires us to demonstrate kovod ha'meis, it means that even after the person passed away and no longer has tzelem Elokim, i.e. a neshama, we still have to act respectfully towards the body because it used to have a tzelem Elokim. Of the six hundred and thirteen mitzvos, one of the most important is the mitzvah of v'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem (Yoma 85b). Not only does the halacha require that if there is a sofek sakanah we must violate almost all of the mitzvos in the Torah to save a life, but we are also required to do so even if there is only a s'fek s'feika, a remote possibility(Yoma 85a). The Gemorah (ibid) adds that even if the likelihood is that by violating Shabbos or whatever other aveira we most probably will not be saving anyone's life, we still do not abstain from the action due to that likelihood (rove - majority). When Bnei Yisroel were traveling in the midbar for 40 years, the weather conditions were such that there was a slight sakanah in performing bris milah. Most of the sh'votim did not fulfill the mitzvah except for sheivet Levi[1]. They had an Orthodox rabbi among them, i.e. Moshe Rabbeinu. Why didn't all the shevatim ask him what to about this sofek sakanah? If it is a real sofek sakanah he should not have permitted sheivet Levi to perform the mitzvah despite their pietistic protests, and if the sofek sakanah was so insignificant that it simply should have been dismissed, why didn't he insist that all the shevatim perform the mitzvah of milah? The Gemorah (Yevamos 12b) tells us that the answer is to be found in Tehillim (116:6), "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." Whenever there is a slight sofek sakanah that is nowhere near fifty-fifty[2], the halacha declares that it depends on the attitude of the patient. If the patient whose life is at risk (or the parent of the patient who is responsible for his well-being) is personally not nervous about the danger, then the halacha does not consider it a sofek sakanah; we apply "Shomer p'soyim Hashem." But if the patient whose life is at risk is nervous and concerned about the sofek sakanah, then the halacha requires us to act based on, "V'chai bohem v'lo sh'yomus bohem", and the sofek sakanah takes precedence over almost all of the mitzvos of the Torah. Shevet Levi had bitachon, and therefore were not concerned, and therefore for their children it was not considered a sofek sakanah, but with respect to the other shevatim who were concerned it was in fact a sofek sakanah, so every shevet was acting k'din. However, if one individual is not concerned, but the nature of the sakanah is such that everyone is interdependent and the individual who personally is not nervous may possibly spread a disease to others who are concerned about its spread, then the concept of Shomer p'soyim Hashem does not apply. The individual who is not concerned does not have the right to determine for the others who are concerned that there is no sakanah for them. The Rakanti[3] relates that one of Ba'alei Ha'tosfos was deathly sick before Yom Kippur and the doctors warned him that if he fasts he will certainly die but if he eats on Yom Kippur there is a slim chance that he may survive. He decided to fast, and of course he died. All of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos were upset over his decision and felt that he went against the halacha. If a terrorist threatens to kill me unless I violate one of the mitzvos of the Torah, the halacha usually is that pikuach nefesh takes precedence over most of the mitzvos in the Torah. What if an individual wants to put up a fight knowing that he may well lose his life but thinks that by being moser nefesh he will fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush Hashem? This matter was a famous dispute amongst the Rishonim. The Rambam's opinion is that one may not volunteer to give up his life al kiddush Hashem when not required by halacha because this is tantamount to suicide[4]. Many other Rishonim disagreed with the Rambam. However, if there is no terrorist pressuring me to violate my religion, but there is merely a dangerous situation of sickness then all of the Ba'alei Ha'tosfos agreed with the Rambam that it would not constitute a midas chassidus to ignore the sakanah[5]. In determining what is a sakanah and what is not, the practice of the Tanoim always was to follow the doctors of their generation. Every so often the Rambam would take a stand on a medical issue against what it says in the Gemorah and the Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos, Yoreh Deah #101) explains that the Rambam was a doctor and he did exactly as the Tanoim did, namely, to follow the doctors of his generation. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 331:9) also says explicitly that we follow the doctors of our generation even in contradiction to the medicine recommended in the Gemorah. We should certainly do the same as the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and follow the doctors of our generation in determining what is considered a sakanah and what is not considered a sakanah. Some well-meaning individuals have blown out of halachic proportion the significance of tefillah b'tzibur and talmud Torah b'rabim and have opted to ignore the sofek sakanah presented by the corona virus when in conflict with these two most important mitzvos. We live in a generation where many b'nei Torah tend to exaggerate the significance of Torah and tefillah. Although their intention is certainly l'shaim Shomayim, we must all keep in mind that when paskening shailos, one may not rely on an exaggeration. All exaggerations by definition are sheker - a misrepresentation of the truth of the Torah. Rav Chaim Volozhiner signs off quite a few of his teshuvos saying, "Keil Emes, Nosan lanu Toras Emes, u'bilti el ho'emes eineinu - the true God gave us the true Torah, and we only look for the truth." Any exaggeration in the area of Torah and halacha is clearly a misrepresentation of our religion. The commentaries on Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 157) refer to the comments of the Maharshal in his sefer Yam Shel Shlomo (Bava Kamma 38a) that to misrepresent a law of the Torah constitutes an aveira related to avodah zorah[6] and as such would be subject to the principle of yeihoreig v'al ya'avor. With respect to a sofek sakanah the halacha clearly requires that we go extremely l'chumrah. Especially religious Jews, who know that they are charged with a mission in life, should certainly be extremely machmir on matters of sofek sakanah. Although every word of a poem appears in the dictionary, the poet conveys an idea by putting the words in a certain order. So too, different people can have the same ideas and the same principles, but if you put them in a different arrangement you have changed the whole understanding if each one of the principles[7]. Once you exaggerate the significance of any particular mitzvah, you have misrepresented the whole picture of kol haTorah kula. [1] See Rashi, Devarim 33:9. [2] See Achiezer, volume 1, #23,2. [3] Siman 166; see Teshuvos Dvar Yehoshua, vol. 2 #94 [4] Hilchos Yesodei haTorah, 5:1. [5] See Mishna Berura 328:6. [6] Because we believe that the Torah is a description of the essence of G-d, misrepresenting the Torah is tantamount to misrepresenting G-d Himself [7] Thoughts 1:22, by Blaise Pascal` From micha at aishdas.org Fri Mar 20 07:07:03 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Message-ID: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> R R Wolpoe or R Ben Hecht (the blog post gives me mixed signals) posted the following guidelines from R Yaakov Hoffman of the Washington Heights Congregation designed for his congregation. (Not to be confused with R Yair Hoffman of the 5TJT.) http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-rrw-guest-blogger-rabbi-yaakov.html On factor I noticed RYH didn't mention that I saw others did was maintaining your usual davening times. (Assuming we're not talking about kevasiqin as the other option.) :-)BBii! -Micha NishmaBlog Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide Friday, 20 March 2020 >From RRW Guest Blogger: Rabbi Yaakov Hoffman Below is a halachic guide I prepared for my shul on how to daven on Shabbos without a minyan, and general halachos one should know that are affected by not being in a shul framework on Shabbos. Feel free to use/adapt for your own shuls. Also, I would be happy to receive any he'aros you may have. Thanks. Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide - One should make an effort to daven Mincha on Friday before plag ha-mincha (this week ~5:50pm). - It is not necessary to recite the full Kabbalat Shabbat as recited in shul; reciting Lecha Dodi, Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat, Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh, and Bameh Madlikin is sufficient. One should recite Lecha Dodi and Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat before sunset (this week ~7:07pm). - Although ordinarily one should daven Maariv after nightfall when praying without a minyan, on Friday evening one may daven after plag (preferably one should wait ~20 minutes after plag). The Shema must be repeated after nightfall (tzeit ha-kochavim, this Friday ~7:42pm). - One may make Kiddush and begin the meal immediately after davening Maariv. If one has not yet begun the meal by tzeit ha-kochavim, one must repeat the Shema before eating. - Those who arise early are strongly encouraged to daven ke-vatikin -- timing one's Shacharit to begin the Amidah at sunrise (this week ~6:56am). - If one is pressed for time (e.g., in order to daven at sunrise, or because one needs to help out at home), one can skip the extra psalms added during Psukei de-Zimra on Shabbat, with the exception of Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbat and Hashem Malach Ge'ut Lavesh. - Men should take care to daven Shacharit before the latest time for the Shema (this week ~10am). - After the Amidah of Shacharit, one recites Ashrei and then the Amidah of Musaf, followed by Ein k'Elokeinu, Aleinu, and Shir shel Yom. - It is extremely advisable to read or study the weekly parashah at some point over Shabbat (and to be extra careful about shnayim mikra during the preceding week). - On Shabbat Mevarchim, it is a good idea to remind oneself and one's household about the upcoming Rosh Chodesh (Rosh Chodesh Nisan is Thursday March 26). One does not recite the formal prayer for the upcoming month that is recited in shul. - One should wash for the Shabbat morning meal before midday (this week ~1pm). - One should daven Mincha before eating se`udah shlishit. - Se`udah shlishit should begin before sunset, and may extend as long as one likes. After benching, or after 10 minutes post-sunset (whichever is later), one may not eat or drink anything except water until after Havdalah. - One should not daven Maariv on Saturday night until after Shabbat is over (this week ~7:50pm); preferably, one should not do any melacha before davening Maariv (with atah chonantanu) or making Havdalah. - Baruch Hashem L'Olam is omitted in Maariv when not davening with a minyan. The rest of Maariv, including additions for motza'ei Shabbat, is recited as usual. Veyiten lecha may be recited after Havdalah. Vihi no`am and ve'attah kadosh are omitted on the Saturday night preceding Pesach (and Shavuot, but hopefully we will be back in shul well before then!), but veyiten lecha is still recited. Yaakov Hoffman Rabbi, Washington Heights Congregation[5] www.bridgeshul.com Posted by Rabbi Ben Hecht at 9:08 am From dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk Fri Mar 20 05:02:57 2020 From: dcr.man at hotmail.co.uk (D Rubin) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] meals In-Reply-To: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> References: <33e98d42-51ad-61cf-b97f-4c64a3e4fc28@sero.name> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:05:11 -0400 From: Zev Sero > I have a much bigger question. The whole way we eat nowadays is so > completely different from the model Chazal had in mind when they made > hilchos birchos hanehenin that really major change is needed, but who > can do it? Their whole premise was that a meal consists of bread, and > condiments to make the bread taste better... http://www.hatanakh.com/en/node/29994 From zev at sero.name Fri Mar 20 08:38:46 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Also omit bracha me'ein sheva, as one does whenever one is not davening with a regularly scheduled minyan. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at Segalco.com Sat Mar 21 11:26:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 18:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] [Nishma] Shabbat Without Shul: A Guide In-Reply-To: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> References: <20200320140703.GA11855@aishdas.org> Message-ID: Interesting-no mention of remembering to dress for shabbat KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From isaac at balb.in Sat Mar 21 04:29:28 2020 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:29:28 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis a vis Lo Sa'amod? 2. Has there been any advice to Mohelim who normally do Metzitza bPeh to cease the practice at this time? 3. Does a Rav have a Chiyuv as Mesader Kiddushin to cease proceedings until there is (in Australia) 4 meters square between people 4. Does a Caterer have a Chiyuv to cease serving food at a Simcha or the like if it too is breaching guidelines? _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik ??? From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:35:43 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kshering Metal Sinks Message-ID: . The Chicago CRC has a video on hag'alat keilim at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21HSfRG69ho&feature=youtu.be I am curious about two things he said at 6:52-6:59, about kashering a metal sink: 1) "make sure that it's a continuous flow and not to stop in the middle from that pot" 2) "start from the bottom and then you work your way up" Why should it be a continuous flow? What's wrong with pausing the flow, as long as every square millimeter gets hit? And what is the advantage of doing the floor of the sink prior to the walls? Alternatively, what's the downside of kashering the walls first? My totally uneducated guess is that the runoff from the walls would do a "chozer v'niur" on the floor, cancelling the 24-hour wait, whereas if the floor is done first, the runoff from the walls is not sufficiently chometzdik to invalidate the kashering. Am I close? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Mar 24 16:23:15 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: <20200324232314.GA12402@aishdas.org> From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 I see two distinct conversations here: - Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? - Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc... When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria. -Micha IsraelNationalNews.com Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33 A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the presence of the "Zoom" program. The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly people who cannot be physically close to their family members due to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their family through the program. The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the start of the holiday. Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency. "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness, so is the case here," the rabbis wrote. From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:29:48 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:29:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] minor fasts? Message-ID: The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare with other b'al nefesh call outs? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 24 23:31:06 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut Message-ID: A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have failed this test. Thoughts? Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:18:33 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder Message-ID: More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to him? I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps, and we would not want to skip any of them. For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on, and then eating the karpas. But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha, the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately. Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on during the meal. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they arise. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Mar 25 13:40:14 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:40:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:56:23 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self In-Reply-To: References: <20200304185921.GA22115@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325215623.GC14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead, > > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are > > accepted as given. > > One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is > universal.... Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal. > https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example ... > Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually > a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't > think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist > that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane." > Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of > famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading > scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even > existed. And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population. https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US. https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are non-sighted people. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When one truly looks at everyone's good side, http://www.aishdas.org/asp others come to love him very naturally, and Author: Widen Your Tent he does not need even a speck of flattery. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:37:19 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> Message-ID: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: > 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching > government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis > a vis Lo Sa'amod? I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera > epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, > davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan > that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to > station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:33:51 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] The 5780th Pasuk Message-ID: <20200325213351.GA11104@aishdas.org> There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the corresponding pasuq. So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24: Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov... Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to the year of RMF's petirah. So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28: Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah ve'ein bahem tevunah. Of course, I don't know what to make of that. OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth, 5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim): Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha... >From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at "R Eliyahu Shelomo". This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the 601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo: Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz... (I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es haqeitz.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure. http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence, Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:40:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? See AhS OC 158:13 , where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not, and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open -- safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 15:04:33 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] coronavirus In-Reply-To: <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> References: <20200311202047.GE11689@aishdas.org> <380518f8-e92c-e863-96dc-5616bcfcb41f@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200325220433.GD14655@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote: > On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: >> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos >> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic >> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live > Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or > rimon? You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit if an esrog is unavailable. If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is complex. http://www.aishdas.org/asp Decisions are complex. Author: Widen Your Tent The Torah is complex. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' Binyamin Hecht From micha at aishdas.org Wed Mar 25 14:19:11 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: <20200325211911.GA6964@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable >> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as >> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the >> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt >> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would >> have failed this test. Thoughts? > He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his > colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, > Achiyah Hashiloni. The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact limits of a relative term. If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim, then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the seeds were there. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 10:40:00 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] ADMIN: AishDas Non-Get-Together, Sunday ch"m! Message-ID: <20200326174000.GA8153@aishdas.org> Save the date! SAVE THE DATE Sunday Chol haMo'ed Pesach / April 12, 2020 1pm Eastern / 8pm Israel We are oganizing an AishDas non-get-together on Zoom! https://mussarinstitute.zoom.us/j/676621598 There is also an "event" for it on Facebook at But if you want more details as they exist and don't risk your time with a Facebook account, just email me at micha at aishdas.org and ask to be included. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Strength does not come from winning. Your http://www.aishdas.org/asp struggles develop your strength When you go Author: Widen Your Tent through hardship and decide not to surrender, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF that is strength. - Arnold Schwarzenegger From JRich at Segalco.com Wed Mar 25 23:15:16 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:15:16 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] chassidut In-Reply-To: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> References: <3170d30e-279d-f2e5-20da-40a3ee59601c@sero.name> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable > approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as > long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the > student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt > the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would > have failed this test. Thoughts? > Kt He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, Achiyah Hashiloni. --------------------------- For clarity, the speaker meant AIUI a gadol from the chain of mesorah KT and stay safe Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:14:21 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder Message-ID: . R' Micha Berger asked: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 > ... > Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi > names. ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA > systems than Ashkenazim are. Relevent? Yes, very relevant! Read the Hebrew teshuva itself, right in that article. I know that the print is tiny, but if you can magnify it, you'll find this in paragraph Aleph: "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei Ashkenaz. But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a regular basis? Or maybe they hold it to be ikar hadin but they refrain for other reasons? Here's something else I noticed while reading the Hebrew version. The second half of paragraph Gimel seems to explain their motivation for issuing this heter, namely that the presence of the grandparents at the Seder is a unique opportunity for - in *their* words - "inyan hashavat lev habanim el avotam", that is, to strengthen the children's ties to Torah. I would think that the medical, mental, and emotional needs of the grandparents are stronger grounds for leniencies than kiruv, yet it was mentioned only afterwards, and that surprises me very much. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 09:24:16 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 12:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 25/3/20 6:37 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >> a vis Lo Sa'amod? > > I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) about a cholera >> epidemic, in which he suggests that minyanim be limited to 15 men each, >> davening in shifts starting at dawn, and each person be assigned a minyan >> that he is to attend. He also suggested that the government be asked to >> station a policeman at the shul door to enforce the 15-man maximum. No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know how RAE would answer the question posed here. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 12:14:27 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:14:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Fwd: Mila and the virus Message-ID: <20200326191427.GB19172@aishdas.org> The Stanislover Rebbe (London branch), R' Uri Ashkenazi, was niftar today. According to YWN and the email I got from someone who didn't want to post the question, but invited me to. RUA was a popular mohel who YWN describes as "performing thousands of Brissim over the years". And he was nifar of CoVID-19, an illness that is particularly communicable. As a quarantining measure, RHSchachter pasqened that we should not stand on the minhag of having a minyan at a beris. Just the minimum number of people necessary. But this petirah made my correspondant and I wonder about sakanah to the babies. Maybe we should be thinking like our ancestors did in the midbar, and wait beyond 8 days until giving a beris is safer? Did any of you hear someone discuss the question? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip, Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From crclbas at mail.aol.com Thu Mar 26 13:16:34 2020 From: crclbas at mail.aol.com (BenS) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom seder Message-ID: <202003862i1634.GA18647@aishdas.org> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020, at 9:23pm EDT, Micha Berger wrote: > From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764 ... >> The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the >> software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly >> people who cannot be physically close to their family members due >> to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their >> family through the program. I believe the Rabbonim retracted their Psak. Ben From micha at aishdas.org Thu Mar 26 15:02:56 2020 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:02:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 12:24:16PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29:28PM +1100, Dr. Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote: >>> 1. You see or know of a minyan, kibbutz anashim, etc that are breaching >>> government Corona guidelines. Do you have a chiyuv to report them vis >>> a vis Lo Sa'amod? >> I think an earlier post already told us that RAEiger held yes. >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 09:42:51PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: >>> There is a letter from Rabbi Akiva Eiger (Igeres Sofrim #29) ... > No, that letter doesn't tell us anything about R Yitzchok's question. In > that case there was no government regulation or guideline. RAE suggested > that the *Jews* impose a restriction on themselves, and ask the government > to send a policeman to enforce it. And not by punishing people who break it > (impossible, since they would have broken no law) but simply by preventing > them from entering the shul while it was at capacity. So we don't know > how RAE would answer the question posed here. If the town's rabbis believe a certain measure is necessary for medical reasons, but there is no similar law, then it is okay to ask the magistrate to get the police to enforce it. But, if they believe the measure is necessary AND it is necessary by law, it's not okay to have the police there to break up any violations? Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, rather than prevent or break up violations? Because this isn't what is happening in any of the stories I know of. I didn't think that was even an option in play when I used your post to answer R/DIB's. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of http://www.aishdas.org/asp greater vanity in others; it makes us vain, Author: Widen Your Tent in fact, of our modesty. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980) From zev at sero.name Thu Mar 26 17:01:32 2020 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:01:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Corona related questions In-Reply-To: <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> References: <6B893D8E-16DC-4FF5-B032-9B6EA82A945A@balb.in> <20200325223719.GE14655@aishdas.org> <20200326220256.GA20846@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On 26/3/20 6:02 pm, Micha Berger wrote: > Are you assuming that the government might imprison or fine violators, > rather than prevent or break up violations? Yes, I am assuming that. People are getting fines, in various places, including Melbourne, where RIB lives. But I'm also asserting a fundamental difference between a *recommendation* that a shul have a policeman to help enforce the rules that a it has made on its own property, versus some uninvolved bystander having a *chiyuv* to *report* to the authorities a violation of *their* rules. Even if you agree with the authorities' rules, and even if you think compliance is a chiyuv, it's a question that needs answering whether you are even *allowed* to inform on someone who is breaking them, let alone whether you have a chiyuv to do so. After all, the people breaking the rules presumably disagree with you on the rules' advisability let alone on their obligatory nature, and they're breaking them on their turf, not yours. So it's very different from RAE's case. -- Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mgluck at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:45:27 2020 From: mgluck at gmail.com (mgluck at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 00:45:27 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Gloves at the seder In-Reply-To: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> References: <20200325214033.GA14655@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <027501d603f2$89d05870$9d710950$@gmail.com> R' AM: > Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so > quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point > *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim... ---- R' MB: I think it's more difficult than that. He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a berakhah on the 2nd? --------- IIRC, the Maharshal (I think!), in his Teshuvos, asks why we wash for Urchatz - we just came home and our hands are tahor. IIRC, he answers that it's k'dai she'yishalu hatinokos. So just saying that the first washing doesn't make him tahor either, according to that. KT, MYG From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:40:46 2020 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:40:46 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Zoom Seder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:30 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > "Regarding the permission to ignite electricity on Yom Tov, it is well > known that the Chachmei Yisrael Hasefardim and the Chachmei North Africa > hold differently. Practically all of them allow it, among them the Rishon > Letzion Rav Ben Tzion Uziel, Rav Refael ben Shimon, Rabbis Yosef and Shalom > Mashash, Rav Moshe Malka, and Rav David Shalush zt"l, and others. And many > Chachmei Ashkenaz forbid it (mid'rabanan)." > > Caveat: I can't tell whether "hold differently" means that the Chachmei > Yisrael Hasefardim hold differently from the Chachmei North Africa, or > whether they agree with each other but hold differently from the Chachmei > Ashkenaz. > The given list of names includes Hachamim from both categories, so the latter option would seem to be correct. > > But either way, this heter is clearly intended ONLY for Sefaradim. > The next paragraph points out that we are talking about a scenario where the computer is turned on before the hag comes in, and we only need the lekatehila heter of electricity on Yom Tov in order to disregard a slippery-slope concern that it might be turned off and on again. As I understand it this is saying that it should be OK for Ashkenazim too under those circumstances. > > But I wonder: Do Sefardim normally turn lights on and off on Yom Tov on a > regular basis? > Not so much today, but a generation or two ago this was standard practice. ROY did not permit it, which has unsurprisingly done a lot to make it less widespread. IMHO this psak is anyway only of theoretical application for a number of reasons. Even leaving aside the possibility that Mashiach will come between now and seder night, experience shows that the chances of setting up a Zoom meeting before hag and having everyone still connected by kiddush, let alone the end of maggid, are minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:06:34 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 01:06:34 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Taanis Bechorim Message-ID: . For decades, I have wondered about the alleged "Seudas Mitzvah" that we partake of at a siyum on Erev Pesach. A Seudas Mitzvah is what we do at a wedding, at a sheva brachos, at a bris. Even a Melaveh Malka is more kavod-dik than the siyum on Erev Pesach. Is this really a siyum? If we eat a few cookies,are we really yotzay our requirement of celebrating this happy occasion? And if we are NOT yotzay the obligation of celebrating, then do we really have permission to break the fast? Think about that for a moment. If seems that this question bothered Rav Henkin too. Here's a psak that Rav Hershel Schachter issued yesterday. See the conclusions that these questions led them to. (Rav Schachter wrote it in both Hebrew and English, so it's HIS words, not my translation.) <<< Regarding the Fast of the Firstborn, Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote that in our time the custom of firstborn sons fasting no longer exists because everyone participates in a siyum. There is clearly no mandate to fast since we find people don?t participate in an actual Seudas Mitzvah and instead, following the siyum, they simply partake of some juice and cookies. Therefore, Rabbi Henkin felt it was proper to give tzedakah to take the place of the custom of fasting. In past years those people who are traveling on Erev Pesach have participated in a siyum over the phone or internet. The same practice can be relied upon this year when we are not gathering together because of the Coronavirus. >>> Rav Shachter's psak can be found on page two at https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950074/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-1-tevilas-keilim-when-the-mikvah-is-closed/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:33:50 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:33:50 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Modern Shabbos Urns Message-ID: . When I was younger, the electric urns that we used for hot water on Shabbos were very simple: fill it, plug it in, and there was a valve for taking the water when you needed it. But many of the newer ones have various settings. Mine ( https://www.amazon.com/ProChef-SM300-35-Cup-Water-Shabbostat/dp/B07FK8KTZ6) for example, has three settings, called Regular, Shabbat, and Yom Tov. The manual gives the following explanation of the three settings: > Regular Mode: Keeps the water hot based on the water temperature > Shabbat Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer > Yom Tov Mode: Keeps the water hot based on a timer and is Halachically permissible to add cold water on Yom Tov Based on that explanation, this is my understanding: In Regular Mode, the thermostat is in full control; when the water gets too cool the heater will turn on until the correct temperature is reached, and then the heater turns off. In Shabbat and Yom Tov modes, the thermostat never responds to the water being too cool. Rather, every so often the timer will turn the heater on, and the thermostat will turn the heater off when the water is hot enough. So what's the difference between Shabbat Mode and Yom Tov mode? If I would use the Shabbat Mode on Yov Tov, is it assur to add water? If I would use the Yom Tov Mode on Shabbat, is there a problem? These are not theoretical questions. If we are still in Chutz Laaretz for this coming Pesach, we'll have a "three day yom tov", and I don't know which setting is preferable. Does anyone else know? Thank you! Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Mar 29 10:15:09 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tefillah When Davening Alone Message-ID: Click here to download "Tefillah When Davening Alone" From llevine at stevens.edu Mon Mar 30 08:17:44 2020 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:17:44 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato Message-ID: Please see https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:04 2020 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:54:04 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Announcing Geshem Message-ID: . In Dec 2011, in the thread "Announcing Tal Umatar", I asked why halacha demands such critical announcements for starting and stopping the prayer for Geshem, yet no formal announcements at all for starting and stopping Tal Umatar. I got no response at all. I asked the same question again in Oct 2015, in the thread "Announcing Geshem". This time I did get one response, from R' Micha Berger, who wrote: > Well, it does make sense to me that baqashos have a level of > personalization that we do not find in shevach. I can insert > whatever baqashos I want to add for birkhas hashanim, so things > are more fluid there. > > My question is more your first one -- why must shevach be communal? > Not making up your own adjectives for G-d, I understand; but even > if I were to switch without everyone in the qehillah doing so yet > (because of the lack of announcement), I wouldn't be doing that... His answer seems very similar to what I found in a teshuva from Rav Hershel Schachter, https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/950285/rabbi-hershel-schachter/piskei-corona-9-hallel-on-pesach-night-and-tefillas-tal/ released just yesterday, on how we should handle the switchover this coming Pesach, when most of us will have no effective tzibur for the announcement. The brackets are mine, parentheses are Rav Schachter's. > There is a big difference between She'eila (V'sen Tal Umatar > Livracha) and Hazkara (Mashiv Haruach). See what I wrote in > the name of our Rav [Soloveitchik] in MiPeninei HaRav (section > Tefila, number 5), that changing the descriptions of Hashem > (from Mashiv Haruach to Morid Hatal) requires Reshus Hatzibur, > and an individual is not allowed to make changes on his own. So to answer *my* question, Tefilas Geshem and Tefilas Tal are not informational. They don't simply inform us about the change, they *authorize* the change. And that authorization is not needed in Barech Aleinu. And to answer RMB's question, I'd suggest learning that section of MiPeninei HaRav. (Rav Schachter did give his views there about what we should do in our private Musafs this coming yom tov, but I need to learn it a few more times, and understand it better, before I comment on it.) Akiva Miller Stay Home - Save Lives . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:20:34 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] roll your own Message-ID: An oleh one Thursday (hopefully we will be back in shul soon) morning insisted on reading his own aliyah. I was surprised that the gabbai/Rabbi did not waive him off (given the reason individual olim stopped reading was so as not to embarrass others). Is this at all common? KT and Be Well Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at Segalco.com Tue Mar 31 20:21:26 2020 From: JRich at Segalco.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 03:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] ukimtas Message-ID: When Rishonim read ukimtas into the gemara(e.g. the gemara really was dealing with a specific case even though it didn't mention it) how often were they stating a tradition vs. using their own logic? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. 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