From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 1 18:49:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Av Message-ID: A thought for Tu B'AV: R'SBG (taanit 30b) designates the two most yamim tovim (holidays) Yom Kippur and Tu B'av. While the gemara lists a number of events which occurred on Tu B'av, I've always been partial to Yom Tvar Hamaagal (the day they stopped cutting wood for the wood pile). Initially I favored it as a paradigm for priority juggling (going back to Torah learning when your job is done), but it occurred to me that the pairing with Yom Kippur is exquisite - Yom Kippur being representative of the short spurt/high profile avodat Hashem while Tu B'av represents the ongoing low profile diligent avodah of daily life. We need both! GCT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Oct 2 09:44:52 2019 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:44:52 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Oct 1, 2019 05:57:56 pm Message-ID: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a few weeks. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 2 15:57:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20191002225720.GA3766@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 04:44:52PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: >> In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a > few weeks. I know Rashi says it's like "beshegam" with a segol, and then explains it as "bishvil shegam". And maybe the Torah contracts "asher" only when sandwitched after a be-? It would explain the uniqueness. But I find Ibn Ezra's comparison to the shin in shekhakha (in "ashrei ha'am shekakha lo") more compelling, and the Ramban did too. The Netziv has the shin as part of the shoresh, as in "mishagmaso". Etc... As RJFS writes, it's "one *possible* exception". GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder] http://www.aishdas.org/asp isn't complete with being careful in the laws Author: Widen Your Tent of Passover. One must also be very careful in - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF the laws of business. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 2 22:13:18 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut Message-ID: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. [PS: I'm not sure whether this belongs on Avodah or Areivim] -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 3 11:37:39 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 > We know that Pas Paltur, "Baker's Bread," is actually permitted year > round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all > one's bread products are strictly Pas Yisrael. But what do these terms > mean? And why should we be stringent with this, of all halachos, and > why specifically now? And what about Shabbos? > Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter > of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily > available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and > the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot > purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress > that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. See the above URL for more. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 3 16:50:05 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003235005.GA11274@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 06:37:39PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 >> Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter >> of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily >> available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and >> the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot >> purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress >> that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. So that while the Yerushalmi's case of eating chullin betaharah is more bein adam lamaqom... When it comes to pas palter during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah, are saying that for AYT we make a point of supporting other Jews, even if our bread may be a little pricier or not as tasty as the rest of the year. More a bein adam lachaveiro practice. GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger Mussar is like oil put in water, http://www.aishdas.org/asp eventually it will rise to the top. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yisrael Salanter - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:27:05 2019 From: simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:27:05 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut In-Reply-To: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> References: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:54 PM Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: > https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 > > It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The > author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and > the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. Powerful indeed, one of the high points of the RH liturgy. By the way, the London S&P mahzor and the Keter Shem Tov, both attribute it to R. Yehuda Halevi. From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:47:59 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice Message-ID: Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the current practice? GT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:51:42 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes Message-ID: Excerpt Recent correspondence: > Sholom u'vracha, > I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It > strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly > fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two > different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av > practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other > seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts. > How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz" [ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb] I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather 1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion) GT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 07:23:52 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population Message-ID: <20191010142352.GA31063@aishdas.org> One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers. This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as "clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os. Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole 6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the time the Kenaanim get to the scene.... See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel or numberous other links. They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 10 09:48:15 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 11:48:15 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these > activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? > A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom > Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical > instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies. Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments if they break while playing. It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another to continue these peripheral extensions. > On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived > the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen > Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason > presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing > and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning > a musical instrument. And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah. Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e. that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording. How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres, or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres. That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites "acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah would be equally exempt. And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments themselves. The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the first place. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: >That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod >haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites >"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a >waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah >would be equally exempt. ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3 and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY. For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 12:58:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted... ... > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the 9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians. Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3. There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to be about until at least 400 years after Chazal. In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah. Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique nighttime reading. Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat. It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside from it being minag, not din, anyway.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:59:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: > > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. > >But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of >minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is D'Rabbonon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 13:18:53 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > D'Rabbonon. Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level because of the act, not because of the date. Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 13:41:35 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22.7A.01711.4D99F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:18 PM 10/10/2019, you wrote: >Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? If I were in EY on SA I would not dance. (Truth of the matter is that I do not dance on ST anymore, given my broken Patella.) It does seem strange to me to have Yizkor and dancing on the same day. If you read Ya'ari's sefer you will see that the ARI danced on Motzoei SA and not on SA itself. He did not dance on SA itself in EY. However, in a sefer that describes him dancing it says mistakenly that he danced and encouraged others to do the same on the night of SA. This is not true. I note that in EY there are big celebrations on the night after SA with music to accompany the dancing with the Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Oct 10 14:18:40 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> On 10/10/19 4:47 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice > changed from allowing the body to decay and then ?burying? the bones, to > the current practice? > GT As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for farming became less important. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 06:21:52 2019 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > > D'Rabbonon. > > Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? > I believe that doing so would be a great Tikkun. The heter "lichvod haTorah" doesn't convince me at all: all the dancing and singing and drinking and shmoozing *while the Torah is being read* seem to me the opposite of kavod. Ditto the practice of calling up everybody in the shul, which is not even a halachic requirement. I only wish I could find a minyan that agrees with me on these points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Oct 13 06:03:10 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> Message-ID: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Sun Oct 13 07:21:13 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] suffering/inui Message-ID: I'm looking into whether increased inui/suffering is ever something to seek (or at least not avoid). Besides yom kippur and other fasts are there other possible applications? I've heard some say childbirth -any sources? Any others? Gt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandels at ou.org Sun Oct 13 07:01:43 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail>, Message-ID: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. --- Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On October 13, 2019 at 9:03:19 AM EDT, Prof. L. Levine wrote: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. Legal Disclaimer The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:38:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions: 1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods? Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum? 2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter? Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to be a staple also? Why be lenient? I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur. << Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of thought. >> If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as a snack, and not as a meal. In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas Palter. So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to consider PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:38:38 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mimetics Message-ID: https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/ > "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted > great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on > Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of > legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt > an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this > persuasion conduct herself?" Optimal? Mimetics be darned! Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:35:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? Message-ID: Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community norms...)] Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From chidekel at mail.gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:50:54 2019 From: chidekel at mail.gmail.com (Meir Shinnar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret Message-ID: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Seth Mandel > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers > (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent > of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were > known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. Meir Shinnar From mandels at ou.org Wed Oct 16 14:15:42 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:15:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it. From: Meir Shinnar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM > It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik > ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just > some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret > (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, > even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures > I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l > said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken, and he was much more than a "fellow traveler." But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases lahalokho. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel Rabbinic Coordinator The Orthodox Union Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels at ou.org From hanktopas at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:42:41 2019 From: hanktopas at gmail.com (Henry Topas) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: Mo'ed Tov: I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this structure has been instituted? Is it different in nuschaot other than Ashkenaz? Shkoyech and a Git'n Kvitel, HT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:00:21 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:15:42PM +0000, Mandel, R/Dr Seth responded to R/Dr Meir Shinar: >> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l >> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. > As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great > talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that > he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that > are against established halokho... Not my experience at all. He does work hard to find justifications for things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, not the practices of Chassidim. On the subject of Litvaks who considered the AhS one of their own: Add the early RMF, who wrote in vol 1 that the AhS was poseiq acharon, only to switch to saying so of the MB in a later volume. (My guess is that when R Moshe saw that lemaaseh the MB was being followed over the Ahs in nearly all quarters, he stopped holding out.) Also, R' Dovid Lifshitz and R' S Yaakov Weinberg both told their talmidim to turn to the AhS. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but by rubbing one stone against another, Author: Widen Your Tent sparks of fire emerge. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:14:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> Message-ID: <20191017211443.GA16981@aishdas.org> On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 02:01:43PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote: > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers ... True. But the Minchas Elazar's validation of the practice is so cute I just need to share it. (It's been a few years since the last time.) The gemara writes (47a): meisiv ha yasvei, berukhi lo mevorkhei Rav Huna bar Bizna and all the gedolei hador "sitting they would sit, but the berakhah they didn't bless". The Muncaczer wonder about the double language. Why wouldn't the gemara just say "ha yasvei velo mvorkhei"? So he suggests that the gemara is to be read as bitmiya: "Do you think sitting they would sit when the berakhah they couldn't bless?!" As I said, cute. Totally unconvincing to this Litvak, but I admit the creativity. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From zev at sero.name Fri Oct 18 07:41:57 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:41:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c715c42-4f5f-8013-d89a-fd77762fcb25@sero.name> On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Davening isn't structured with kaddish opportunities in mind. On the contrary, kaddish is an afterthought, tacked on to the bits before and after the main event. Since on Yom Kippur we (at least in principle) go right through the day there's no need to conclude each tefilla with ketoret and/or Aleinu, and thus no opportunity for kaddish afterwards. I davened at a Sefaradi minyan, where things were different. First, after musaf there was Ketoret/Ledavid Mizmor/Ledavid Ori, followed by a kaddish (though surprisingly it was not Al Yisrael), and then Alenu followed by chatzi kaddish. After mincha there was a perek of tehilim and alenu, each followed by kaddish. There was nothing after ne'ilah, but there was a kaddish after each of the sifrei torah in the morning. In addition, as is my custom, I learned Kelim 24 and Mikvaot 7 before musaf and again before mincha and concluded them after those tefilot, with Kadish Al Yisrael. I seem to recall there was also something learned during the 40-minute break before mincha, followed by kaddish Al Yisrael, but my memory is a bit hazy. (I do remember that mishnayot Yoma was learned after maariv, followed by kaddish.) If you had been at an L shul, your kaddish opportunities would have been as follows: After musaf there would be tehillim and mishnayos; after mincha there would be Ledavid Ori; and after neilah there would be Ketores, tehillim, and mishnayos; each followed by kaddish, plus one on the first sefer torah in the morning. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mandels at ou.org Fri Oct 18 08:13:10 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> , <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> Message-ID: From: Micha Berger Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:00 PM > Not my experience at all. [AhS] does work hard to find justifications for > things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me > tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos > do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, > not the practices of Chassidim. He works hard to find bases for minhogim of many groups. His defense of the chasidic customs that violate halokho, however seems to notable, because he does it for all of the three or four cases that are directly against all the poskim. I am not enough of an expert to evaluate whether it is egregiously different than his defense of other minhogim. But it is fairly well known that he became a great admirer of the Tzemach Tzedek after he first met him. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel From micha at aishdas.org Sat Oct 19 18:57:01 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Barukh Dayan haEmes - Rabbanit Shoshana Boublil In-Reply-To: <10375da9-e283-47e9-ae6d-25316c491142@Michas-iPad> Message-ID: <39cbf7cd-2d3e-48d7-b363-268c0ac5baf2@Michas-iPad> I regret having to share the news that Rt Shoshana Boublil has lost her battle against cancer. The levayah will be tomorrow at 12:30 Bet Olamin haYarqon, Shaar Ge?ulah Her family will be sitting shiv?ah at her home. The address was sent to Areivim. I would say more, but I have no idea how the laws of hespedim on ch?m apply to this situation. -Micha > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isaac at balb.in Sun Oct 20 00:33:15 2019 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini At erect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7F7B49-E256-4064-B391-46540CA77860@balb.in> From: "Mandel, Seth" One must also bear in mind that apart from his friendship and esteem for the Tzemach Tzedek (Agav, The Beis HaLevi also sent Shaylos to the Tzemach Tzedek) one needs to remember that he was Rav in a town populated by Lubavitcher Chassidim as I noted here https://pitputim.me/2016/11/14/what-should-we-be-doing-during-the-lifting-of-the-torah-part-4/ In respect of Hagba and how that is done. _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik Z"L From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:28:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Time for dinner on Shmini Atzeres Message-ID: Regarding the late afternoon of Hoshana Raba in Chutz Laaretz, Mishneh Brura 668:7 writes: <<< The Acharonim conclude that one should not eat in the evening until dark. However, b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi, he should *not* say Leshev Basukkah, because he already accepted Shmini Atzeres in davening and in kiddush. >>> >From this, it seems that the MB has no problem beginning Shmini Atzeres early, with davening and/or kiddush, his only problem is with eating. He explains this more deeply in Shaar Hatziuy 668:12: <<< The reason is because it is still part of the seventh day, and he is obligated by the Torah to eat in the sukkah. How can he eat without daying Leshev Basukkah?!?!? But to say Leshev Basukkah is not possible, because it would be a contradiction, because in davening and kiddush, he declared it to be Shmini Atzeres! >>> Writing in chutz laaretz, the MB clearly presumes that this person *is* in the sukkah, and the only problem is the bracha. I don't understand why the bracha is such a big deal. What's wrong with simply omitting the Layshev? Let's phrase it this way: This person has two choices: (A) At this time, during which there might be a Torah obligation to eat in the sukkah, he can eat in the sukkah without the Birkas Hamitzvah. (B) Because of the uncertainty about saying the bracha, he should avoid eating in the sukkah entirely, until this uncertain time ends. - It seems clear to me that it would be far preferable to choose A and thereby possibly do a mitzvah d'Oraisa albeit without a bracha, rather than just sit around squandering that opportunity. Why am I wrong? What did I miss? (By the way, please note the MB's words "b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi". I am curious what he would advise for a person who said Kiddush and washed Netilas Yadayim, but did NOT say Hamotzi yet. Shaar Hatziyun 668:13 (near end) is lenient for the last quarter-hour before dark, but what if it were earlier? Would he really tell a person not to eat yet?) None of the above would apply in Eretz Yisrael, where there are real problems with eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, even without a bracha. Similarly, in Eretz Yisrael it's not possible to eat in the house until dark, because of the safek chiyuv d'Oraisa. But my next question, I think, is equally valid in Israel and Chu"l: Suppose it is raining on Hoshana Raba afternoon - wither in Eretz Yisrael or not - and the rain is expected to continue into the night, and he is therefore planning to eat indoors. Is there any reason to delay dinner? The MB has no problem with davening or kiddush early, and there is no question of saying Leshev. So why not? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Oct 22 18:11:18 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:11:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon Message-ID: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, then how was it he ate of the tree? Does that mean that Chava already had the yetzer hara? And if not, why would she even have been tempted. With only the yezter tov, they would be like the malachim. [Email #2. -micha] In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash able to speak and cause them to sin? From arie.folger at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:42:01 2019 From: arie.folger at gmail.com (Arie Folger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Reb Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Reb Zev Zero gave an important part of the answer. But I want to take this opportunity to express my astonishment that not more people are realizing that the lack of 'Alenu after Mussaf isn't a minhag of Yom Kippur, but a result of the original minhag, still practiced in Yekki communities, that Alenu is not recited between two tefillot that follow immediately after one another. I.e. when saying Ma'ariv immediately after Minchah, no 'Alenu is said after Minchah, or, when Minchah is said immediately after Mussaf. In many shuls, there is no break between Mussaf and Minchah (actually, no break on Yom Kippur, period), which is why there is no 'Alenu. Since most shuls, however, introduced a break between Mussaf and Minchah, it stands to reason that we should say 'Alenu and Kaddish. -- Arie Folger, Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 23 08:13:37 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] blessings Message-ID: Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 13:10:06 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] blessings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191023201006.GB20617@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:13:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should > be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because > brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) I think the former, looking at the phrase in context in the gemara. R Elazar quoting R Chanina continues (Megillah 15a): ... For two gedolei hador were blessed by two hedyotos and they were fulfilled. And they [the gedolim] are David (Shemu'el 2 24:23) and Daniyel (6:17).... And then he continues about qelelas hedyot, with Avimelekh cursing Sarah (Bereishis 20:16) causing Yitzchaq's blindness as an example. Aside from the indications from the examples... Why would R' Chanina advise us to increase the chance of a qelalah working by believing in it? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is a stage and we are the actors, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but only some of us have the script. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Menachem Nissel - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 14:43:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of the Universe. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:32:03 +0000 Subject: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis ... GOOD MORNING! How old is the universe? 13.8 billion years or 6,000 years? Did Creation take place in 6 twenty-four hour days or were they longer? This week I bring to you a fascinating approach from a fascinating man. Daniel Friedmann holds a master's degree in engineering physics and is the Chairman of Carbon Engineering, a company dedicated to removing co2 from the air to solve climate change and ex-CEO of the Canadian company that made the robotic arm for the Space Shuttle. He lays out his research in his book, The Biblical Clock. Why did Mr. Friedmann start investigating the connection between the Torah's story of Creation and the scientific timeline? The Talmudic sages teach that 'God looked into the Torah and created the world" (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. 1:2). Mr. Friedmann concluded that if the Torah is the blueprint of the universe, then the Torah account of creation and scientific account of the age of the Universe must coincide. About 700 years ago Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the assertion that time -- while God was creating and man had not yet appeared -- was different than time as we keep today. Mr. Friedmann, based on this insight and on classical sources, aligns the dates of key events as described in Genesis 1 and 2 with those derived from scientific theory and observation. How? One Creation Day = 1,000 x 365.25 x 7,000 = 2.56 billion years. The factor of 1,000 comes directly from Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day" -- where we learn that one day for God equals 1,000 human years. The 365.25 number is simply a conversion from days to years (being the number of days in a year). The factor of 7,000 relates to cosmic cycles. The Talmud, (Sanhedrin 97a), which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." Various Kabbalistic works, dating back to the first century, write that there are 7 cosmic cycles of 7000 thousand years (analogous to the sabbatical cycles). The factor of 7000 relates to these cycles. (This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs). The Torah provides a detailed timeline of the creation events. Genesis describes the timeline for the formation of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Each event is provided in sequence with a time of occurrence. For example, we are told that the sun was completed at the end of Day 4, that life first appeared in the oceans at the beginning of Day 5, and that the animals were made in Day 6; careful examination of the Genesis text reveals about 20 separate creation events. Much of the information in Genesis is further detailed in the Oral Torah to reveal a more accurate timeline of events. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b) provides the detailed account of Day 6, hour-by-hour: "The day consisted of twelve hours. In the first hour, his (Adam's) dust was gathered... in the fifth, he arose and stood on his feet; in the sixth, he gave (the animals) their names; in the seventh, Eve became his mate; in the eighth, they ascended to bed as two and descended as four (i.e., Cain and Abel are born); in the ninth he entered the Garden of Eden and he was commanded not to eat of the tree; in the tenth, he sinned; in the eleventh, he was tried; and in the twelfth, he was expelled (from Eden)..." Mr. Friedmann then calculates that the Age of the universe from the start of Day 1 to today: exactly 13.74 billion years, coinciding with the latest scientific measurements. Beginnings of life: from first thing on Day 5 ("let the waters teem" Gen. 1:20) to today corresponds to 3.52 billion years which is in agreement with the scientific time for "universal ancestor" -- the single cell. Plant life (on the land): from hours 6 to 9 on Day 6 until today ("God planted a garden... and there He placed the man... And God caused to sprout from the ground every tree" Gen. 2:8, 9) corresponds to 426-106 million years ago which he reports is in agreement with the fossil record. The Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science.... ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Daniel Friedmann Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:38 PM Micha Berger wrote: > Isn't this the a minor variant on what R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote in 1979 in > "The Age of the Universe - A Torah-True Perspective"? > http://nleresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/the_age_of_the_universe___a_torah_true_perspective.pdf > If so, you might want to see R' Ari Kahn's obections in Explorations, which > he excerpted on the Avodah email list at > http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n080.html Hi thank you, no this is different from Rabbi Kaplan's work as detailed in my book. RK had the cycles of 7000 occurring before day 1 this was not in accordance with the Arizal. In the approach here the 7000 is for each creation day based on commentary on Etz Hayim This provides an age of the universe of 13.74 vs 15 billion and allows calculation of another 17 events All but one match scientific measurement. Sorry for the short answer .... From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:12:17 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:12:17 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Which gate did they use to go into the azara when bringing the korban pesach? Message-ID: It is clear that they used shaar nikanor but the question is did they use the other gates of the azara as well? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:31:49 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 06:31:49 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Oct 25 07:14:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191025141420.GE25728@aishdas.org> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 06:31:49AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get > 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly > changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up > with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? This is a problem with concordism in general. Look at how well the Rambam held up. However, if you believe there is only one emes, and aren't ready to simply dismiss or ignore whatever evidence we do have, then you would feel there is a duty to keep on finding convergence. Not in the tenor of "science finally caught up to Torah", more "see, the two needn't contradict; you don't have to choose." :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but when a prophet dies, his influence is just Author: Widen Your Tent beginning. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Soren Kierkegaard From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Oct 27 05:14:25 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Noach Message-ID: <562504E5-2AC5-4CBA-BD30-59C27C348441@cox.net> In Parshat Noach, Ch.8 verse 2, the word "vayikalei" (and the rain from heaven was restrained) appears only twice in the entire Bible. The only other place it occurs is in Parshat Vayakhel where Moses commanded the Jews to contribute materials for the building of the Tabernacle. The Jews responded with such energy that Moses soon had more than enough material and he had to tell the people to cease. (We should be so lucky today). The people dutifully complied, as the Torah records: "And the people were restrained from bringing" (Exodus 36:6). The Baal HaTurim who pointed out the rare occurrence of this word says that this connection reminds us that when God rains down His blessings, people increase their level of tzedakah. But when the rain stops, so does their generosity. (Actually, I would have thought it was just the opposite because if God did not rain down his blessings, people would be afraid that they've sinned and therefore would increase their level of tzedakah. But as soon as the blessings rain down, people in their prosperity forget others and are less generous. I would tend to think it really depends upon the person, etc.). From ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:06:53 2019 From: ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> References: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2019, 5:43 PM, at 5:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote: >The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had >when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of >the Universe. https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/aryeh-kaplan-on-evolution-a-missing-chapter-of-the-handbook-of-jewish-thought/ I don't like the Schroederian take on Evolution, but, regardless, a major discovery. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:46:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in certain cases). So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:33:32 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon In-Reply-To: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> References: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191031023332.GE14724@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 09:11:18PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil > inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, > then how was it he ate of the tree? ... The Rambam (MN 1:1-2) says that until the sin, Adam and Chavah's challenge was to decide between truth and falsehood. And the snake provided the falsehood that they fell for. Potentially along the same lines, R' Dessler says that until the sin the yeitzer hara was externalized in the form of the nachash. The sin caused the internalization of desire. Which also depends on someone who only wants to do Hashem's Will falling for the arguments of the externalized yh"r. > In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also > called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, > because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the > question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply > the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash > able to speak and cause them to sin? First, I think the "ruach memalela" of Unqelus that Rashi is referring to is not the power to speak, but having an internal monolog. The ability to "hear" one's thoughts is a critical part of assessing what one's thinking and a necessary element of free will. Which would explain why Koko the gorilla's (et al) skill at learning sign language doesn't pose a question about kinds of soul. (And could be why they didn't *invent* language.) Pre-fruit, this world and the olam ha'emes hadn't yet split into two. (R Kook) So Adam could have encountered the snake in a non-physical way. The nachash might not even be the physical snake, but the satan who was riding him (is that the Zohar or only Ben Sira?), or the angel in charge of snakes. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:04:56 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:04:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 15 Av In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031020456.GA14724@aishdas.org> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 02:09:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: >> And further ... if a woman converts for marriage, and the >> marriage is assur, is there any way to say the conversion was >> valid? I mean, there are pretty loose definitions of qabbalas >> ol malkhus Shamayim compared to what a beis din would hope for. >> But converting for the sake of being able to do an issur??? > These are great questions, and their answers are far above my level. But > I'll say this: It is not at all unusual to come across a gemara that says, > "You're not allowed to convert in this manner, but if you did, then it is > valid." And some of those leniencies raise the exact question that RMB is > asking, because if the gerus was done is a forbidden manner, where is the > qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim? There is a significant break in the parallel you're proposing. Someone whose geirus was done wrongly but kosher bedi'eved was converted by a beis din who did something wrong. It doesn't necessarily disprove the geir's qabbalas ol mitzvos, because (1) they're relying on people who are comparatively subject matter experts, not acting on their own; and (2) they aren't necessarily converting for the sake of being able to sin. And if (3) it's about wondering about the convert's QOM vs ulterier motive (like the Rambam's discussion of Shimshon's and Shelomo haMelekh's wifes), the convert him/herself isn't wondering. Here, you have someone converting just for the purpose of sinning. It isn't about the conversion, where the ball or sin is in the beis din't court. (It doesn't involve any questions of the kashrus of the geirus being valid by circular or paradoxical reasoning -- the sin doesn't have the self-reference nature of being in the conversion itself.) > By the way, where did they find a Beis Din in Moav? Yes, that was a > rhetorical question, intended to point out that if Rus and Orpah did have a > valid conversion at the beginning of the story, the procedure must have > involved some pretty serious leniencies. Well, if two famous people went to where there was food, out of the whole Jewish and Israelish peoples, there must have been at least 3 others. That doesn't surprise me. > Hmmm... Actually, if Rus converted at the end of the story, that is pretty > problematic too, because even if there isn't any "conversion for the sake > of marriage" to worry about, the Beis Din is even more surprising. (Someone > *might* make a case that two brothers could be a Beis Din for gerus, but > when Naami and Rus were alone they didn't have any Jewish men around at Or again, anonymous and unmentioned bit players. Who said they were all alone on the road? Maybe the road was better traveled than that? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:13:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] guessing at history? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031021308.GB14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 08:16:45AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I recently heard a shiur where the presenter described the "bad > scholarship" of the Torah Tmimah when offering the "misread abbreviation" > explanation (e.g. v'hazmanim really means fill in the holiday name). I > thought it a bit unkind since ISTM the guessing about the historical > circumstances of practices is what poskim do all the time (e.g. why some > women have a minhag not doing mlacha on rosh chodesh) I noticed that his father also gets very creative. The difference is, the Arukh haShulchan's creative sevaros are always to try to figure out how halakhah as practiced could have emerged from the texts. The TT doesn't have that limitation. But saying he was wrong doesn't need to be a value judgment. For example, his theory that saying "Migdol" in (after?) bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov came from someone confusing "B"Sh" for "BeShemu'el B" with "BeShabbos" is provably wrong. The Avudraham refers to the custom, and yet predates the Christian publishing of Shemuel in two volumes. Does that make the TT morally wrong for trying his best? Or intellectually dishonest when he clearly warns you he is theorizing? It is not unlike rabbanim who make other historical guess in the fact that he too gueses. What is different is that most don't have as high of a miss rate. Which means that you should buy into these theories with a lot of caution and independent research. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:15:16 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> References: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> Message-ID: <20191031021516.GC14724@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 05:18:40PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky > country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never > existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for > farming became less important. Also, when people were eating al taharas qodesh and otherwise were keeping all those halakhos seriously, there was a stronger drive to keep as much of Eretz Yisrael tahor as possible. In addition to pragmatic reasons to save real estate. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself, http://www.aishdas.org/asp "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now, Author: Widen Your Tent at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:20:03 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031022003.GD14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:35:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the > deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh > (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community > norms...)] How can it be? It's not like the chiyuv for the amud is really a chiyuv. Even qaddish is minhag -- and he could say that without taking the amud. For example, they say that R' Yisrael Salanter held that giving the amud to the other aveil is a better zekhus for the niftar than taking it yourself. I think that the main reason why culture so emphasizes this one ritual for aveilus is because of the number of people for which a year of going to shul regularly is the start of taking minyan more seriously for the rest of their lives. So, if we find other ways to encourage shul attendance (Qaddish is still an issue), even that motive is addressed. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a http://www.aishdas.org/asp person is to remain asleep and untamed." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 30 22:02:59 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/19 7:46 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn?t find it) although I?m guessing it?s based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty ? at least in > certain cases). It is indeed based on that. > So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei > mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is > kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] Bread is different, because the gemara specifies bread, and yes, crumbs smaller than a kezayit are beteilim and may be thrown out. AIUI one may deliberately break up a large piece into pieces smaller than a kezayit in order to throw them out. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 31 08:49:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031154951.GA2681@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in > certain cases).... The AhS OC 180:4 says that the worry about crumbs had to do with the Roman shulchan, which was a small one-person thing. And if you permitted the staff to take the table out without gathering the crumbs, they would likely do so even with bigger-than-kezayis pieces. (He even mentions a discussion in the gemara that allows hiring an am ha'aretz as a shamah.) But we today don't take the table out when not eating. (Which is why we need a ke'ara to remove or cover and then restore, as appropriate, at the seder.) The AhS says the problem is that people who wash before bread will disgracefully treat the bread on the floor from previous meals. The MB s"q 10 records a chumerah of not throwing out crumbs that total a kezayis. And, in accordance with the AhS's description of the motive, warns you not to walk on any bread crumbs. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless http://www.aishdas.org/asp he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness. Author: Widen Your Tent Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From penkap at panix.com Tue Nov 5 08:26:36 2019 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: <9D1EF0D1-F323-470E-AC49-C21245FA8691@panix.com> ?Re the discussion about a particular parnassa segula having to do with the disposal of bread, I always thought the best such segula was to get a good education and/or learn a trade. Doesn?t always work, I know, but no segula always works. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:00 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechilla Message-ID: An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:58 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:26 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:42:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Al tochlu mimenu na Message-ID: On the Mesorah list, we are having a discussion about the word "na" (nun-aleph), which often seems to mean "now" or "please". It was also compared to some other synonyms. I interjected that "na" also appears in Shemos 12:9 with an entirely different meaning, "undercooked". R' Zev Sero showed how this meaning is *not* so different after all: > Al tochlu mimenu na means "as it is now", uncooked. > Think "bistro", or "fast food". The fastest food is raw. It is a common error to think that "na" means "raw" here. Rashi on the pasuk defines "na" as "She'eino tzalui kol tzorko - It's not roasted all it needs" Rashi requires the Korban Pesach to be fully roasted, and it seems that even Maachal Ben Drusa'i would count as "na". Similarly, Torah Temimah there (#73 and #81) says that one who eats a Korban Pesach raw ("chai" is his word) has *not* violated this pasuk. (But he did fail to eat it roasted as required.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:06 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") Message-ID: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? The underlying motif of washing hands is ritual purification, similar to immersion in a mikve. The rabbinical decree to wash hands before meals is based on the purification the Kohanim underwent before eating their teruma offerings. The Talmud, however, gives a rather odd rationale for "mayim acharonim", washing hands after the meal. The Sages explained that this washing removes the salt of Sodom, a dangerous salt that can blind the eyes. [Chulin 105b] What is this Sodomite salt? What does it have to do with purification? How does it blind the eyes? Rav Kook explained that to answer to these questions we must understand the basis for the immorality of Sodom. The people of Sodom were obsessed with fulfilling their physical desires. Their concentration on self-gratification led to selfish, egocentric behavior. They expended all of their efforts chasing after material pleasures. No energy was left for helping the stranger; no time remained for kindness towards others. Eating a meal obviously involves sensual pleasure. The rabbis feared that since we eat several times every day, the importance of spirituality that truly perfects man can be decreased. As a preventive measure, the Sages decreed that we wash our hands before eating. This ritual impresses upon us the imagery that we are like the Kohanim, eating "holy" bread baked from teruma. The physical meal we are about to partake now assumes a spiritual dimension. Despite this preparation, the act of eating may to some extent reduce our holiness. Therefore, washing after the meal comes to counteract this negative influence. We wash away the salt of Sodom, the residue of selfish preoccupation in sensual pleasures. This dangerous salt, which can blind our eyes to the needs of others, is rendered harmless through the purification of "mayim acharonim". [Ayn Aya I:21] Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there. Bonnie Raitt Physical strength can never permanently withstand the impact of spiritual force. F.D.R. From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Nov 11 05:06:41 2019 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: <008601d59890$dc8ba6f0$95a2f4d0$@touchlogic.com> From: "Rich, Joel" ...Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? Many years ago (after reading the section in R Dessler on dreams) I had the same question. At the time, I asked R Wolbe z'l how much time/effort I s put into interpreting my dreams. He told me that when he was younger, he had a reoccurring dream and he went to the Chazon Ish to ask its significance and what he should do. He told me that the CI told him that today we not on the madregah that Hashem sends us msgs thru our dreams, and that he should ignore it. Mordechai Cohen From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:57:24 2019 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:57:24 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechila In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)?' Isn't that the same question as why we have the aseres ymei teshuva after RH, not before? After all, the purpose of asking mechila is that we can't have mechila or kapara on mitzvos bein adam l'makom until we've had mechila from those we've trespassed against (with apologies to external liturgy). So the minhag haolam re mechila and the teshuva of aseres ymei teshuva are all part of the same process and issue. The question of why the order of of RH/AYT/YK is what it is has been asked and has a number of approaches. But your question seems just part of that bigger question. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Nov 12 06:00:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Being Sekptical About Skepticism Message-ID: <20191112140022.GA6783@aishdas.org> From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/when-atheists-stole-the-moral-high-ground/ > The Spectator > Nick Spencer > 9 November 2019 > When atheists stole the moral high ground ... > Most of us like to believe that we believe what we believe because > rigorous reasoning and reliable evidence have led us there. Most of us > are wrong. It isn't that reason and evidence play no role in our religion > or lack of it; rather that they are saturated with deeper emotional, > social and practical concerns. As Julian Barnes writes in The Sense of > an Ending: 'Most of us... make an instinctive decision, then build up an > infrastructure of reasoning to justify it.' Du Perron was no doubt very > devout. Today he may well have been devoutly sceptical. But in neither > case is he likely to have been led to his dis/belief through reason alone. > That the emotions matter is well established in the case of religious > belief, as Stephen T. Asma's fine recent study Why We Need Religion > explains. But it is less well recognised when it comes to unbelief, and > particularly the history of unbelief. Here we are still wedded to the > romantic fable of fearless sceptics hacking their way through obscurantist > bigotry, armed with nothing more than their trusty sword of reason. See epigram in signature. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:37:18 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha Message-ID: Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:39:28 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah Message-ID: The chavot yair (252) was asked by a talmid chacham (TC) about the following circumstances: The TC's cousin vowed to provide the TC with weekly wine for Kiddush. The TC would rather use his own wine as he doesn't want to have a freebie with which to do a mitzvah (see Samuel 2.24:24) He fears however it would be stealing to use the provided wine as the cousin would not have given it to him if he knew he wasn't using it for Kiddush. The chavot yair provides a detailed analysis of whether such a condition is truly binding [the whole less than 100% free and clear sale topic is an interesting one - is it not a sale if the condition isn't met or is there a separate obligation] What caught my eye however was his endorsement of the TC's preference to pay for his own kiddush even if the wine wasn't as good! It's not based on the passage from Samuel [I suspect since that case was a purchase from a non-ben brit) but rather because "tfei hiddur v'dikduk mitzvah havi im koneh ladavar mkiso dlo havi msitca d'chinam dmistra milta yesh lanu od rayah mhazohar" it's more of a beautification and scrupulousness in mitzvoth if he buys it himself so it's not free and even though this is clearly logical, we have a proof from the zohar.] My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). My meta guess would've been soneih matanot yichyeh (it's better not to take gifts) but that would require not taking the donated wine at all - which didn't seem up for grabs. Any thoughts other than behavioral economics? (we value our own things more) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:07:29 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") In-Reply-To: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> References: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191118190729.GA14270@aishdas.org> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 09:50:06AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg relayed the following piece from Gold from the Land of Israel, R' Chanan Morrison, adapted from Ein Eyah vol 1 pg. 21: > The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom > and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one > should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? But does it have anything directly to do with the city's evil or its destruction? One would be tempted to say yes, because Lot's wife *looked* back at the Cities of the Plains and was turned to salt. And the thread of melach sedomis is to ones eyesight, of all things. But this is a reference to getting an actual salt that they were using alongside normal table salt (sodium chloride) into one's eyes. There is no need to take this out of the realm of physical danger. Salt extrated from the flats in the area has far more adulteration with potassium chloride than anything we would consume today. (In fact, the modern town of Sedom was built specifically for potash [a mix of potassium compounds, mostly potassium carbonate] works.) So it makes sense in mundane terms -- potassium chloside is a moderate eye irritant, and sites also warn about abrasion in the eye as well. And in fact, to make malach sodomis more symbolic would complicate the Ashkenazi neglect of mayim achronim. We don't wash because the salt isn't used. If the salt were symbolic of Sedom and thus hand-washing more in the territory of impurity, we would need to prove that the lack of using the salt sufficiently weakens the symbolism to allow neglecting the ruling. (Back when RRW was on-list, I noted that the Ashk - Seph split on this backed up a theory he repeated here. According to Prof Agus, Ta Shma and others [not R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik], because many more Ashkneazim came ultimately from EY, rather than the more predominantly Bavli origins of Sepharadim, we can find a number of minhagei Ashk and liturgical elements sources in the Y-mi or Midrashei Halakhah even when against the Bavli. The Bavli gives two reasons for mayim achronim -- a comparison to watchin before the meal, and thus about taharah, and melach sedomis. The Y-mi only mneitons melach sedomis. Which would explain why Ashk feel free not to wash when no such salt is served, but Seph do not.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes http://www.aishdas.org/asp exactly the right measure of himself, and Author: Widen Your Tent holds a just balance between what he can - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:16:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118191623.GB14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:37:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the > period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) The Be'er Heitev says that for men it's only until one counts. Looks like the usual "don't do your own thing you might forget to do the mitzvah" taqanah (but in minhag form). The AhS (s' 9) "vegam `atah yeish nashim" who keep this minhag. But the minhag was ONLY accepted by women and ONLY until sefirah after maariv. What "after maariv" meant for single women in towns where there multiple times for maariv is beyond me. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:29:25 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118192925.GC14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:39:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in > the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the > better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure > additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). I can't answer your "in addition", but in general. One Shabbos haGadol derashah R Menachem Zupnik included the idea that it is better to use wine you bought for the four kosos than wine you got for free (for example, in "shalachmanos"). The idea is that this is actually the finer wine, regardless of the taste of the two wines. And therefore, Ashkenazim would choose white wine they bought over red wine they were given. Whereas Sepharadim prioritize color over taste preference, and therefore over this too. Perhaps it's an issue of "Adam rozeh beqav shelo mitish'ah qavim shel chaveiro." (R Kahana, BM 38a) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 19 15:40:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: <35B73FAF-B266-4A97-980D-07F0F8014233@sibson.com> If one (or a whole community)normally eats sliced apple as part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 04:55:11 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as > part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make > a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for ritual purposes. My understanding is that this is exactly why we are told to have the maror in mind when we say haadamah on the karpas. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Nov 20 13:31:40 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191120213140.GQ29112@aishdas.org> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:55:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > R' Joel Rich asked: >> If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as >> part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make >> a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? > You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a > non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for > ritual purposes. To rephased RAM's answer in the terms I was planning to use... (Just because to the way I think, I find the first sentence below a clear summary.) Whether or not a food it part of the meal has little to do with the kind of food, and more with why it is being eaten. Yes, there are rules of thumb. Like assuming fruit during the meal wasn't really as part of the meal - which RJR's example of waldorf salad violates. Just as RAM's (deleted) example of maror defies the norms for why we eat vegetables during the meal. And is a close parallel to the minhag of eating an apple as part of a siman milsa. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 21 08:43:28 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion Message-ID: Please see the article at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5213 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Interestingly, overnight peeled eggs might actually be permitted according to several authorities, as Rashi (ad loc. s.v. she?avar) when explaining the prohibition omits eggs from the criteria.Additionally, there is some debate among several later poskim about what type of peeled eggs are intended for inclusion in the prohibition - cooked eggs or raw eggs. ohr.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Nov 22 09:11:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] "Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me" (by R/Dr Hillel Goldberg) Message-ID: <20191122171120.GA24498@aishdas.org> R Hillel Goldberg wrote The Fire Within, which inspired me to explore Mussar. (And is long out of print.) Dr Hillel Goldberg's PhD thesis became the book, "Israel Salanter, text, structure, idea: the ethics and theology of an early psychologist of the unconscious". Since, RHG inhereted leadership of the Intermountain Jewish News, published in Denver. He once again inspire me week's opinion colum again inspired me, so I'm including it in full. If you like your arti https://www.ijn.com/yes-directly-moses-speaks-to-me/ :-)BBii! -Micha PS: I noticed that K'tav doesn't list that book title with what I think of as "title caps", and I see RHG didn't do so with the article's title either. If someone could explain the rules of these things to me, off list, I would appreciate it. Bcc: Dr Alan Morinis, R/Dr Hillel Goldberg (Since I didn't take the time to reach out to get permission to share their addresses. Assume I will forward them any replies.) Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me [Rabbi Dr] Hillel Goldberg Nov 21, 2019 Columns, Opinion, View from Denver More venerable than the Kaddish, older than the Haggadah, earlier than Chanukah and Purim. A sense of Jewish history connects a Jew to his roots. It can also cloud those roots. Here is what I mean. If we ask, why be Jewish, Jewish history is one answer. There are many variations on the answer, but each one draws a Jew back in time, fostering a feeling of identity with Judaism or the Jewish people. Even so, these answers rarely take us back far enough. Consider the following reasons for connecting to Jewish history: I want to keep my own family customs alive. I do not want the Holocaust to be the end of the Jewish people. I know my passion for social justice comes from Jews always being the underdog. I relish research into my own genealogy. The more I learn about my past, the more I feel connected to it and proud of it, whether I am an Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe or a Sephardi from Spain, Greece or Iraq. I get the chills when I see Israel reborn. I sit in a philosophy class and feel special pride when Maimonides is held up as a major philosopher. I study about Rabbi Akiva, Rashi and the mystics in Safed, and I know I am connected to an eternal people. In the long arc of Jewish history, all of these examples are relatively recent. They are kind of like touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and feeling connected to the American Revolution more than 240 years ago, but then thinking of standing before the Western Wall, some 2,000 years old. As in, 240 years, big deal! I do not mean to discount my feelings of awe and gratitude upon visiting Independence Hall. But compared to Jewish memory, 240 years is a blink. The thing is, we may say the same even for the 2,000 year-old Western Wall, the most powerful, emotional site in Judaism. My sense of Jewish history may cloud just how far back my roots actually stretch. Just as we may skip over the Holocaust and Maimonides and our personal genealogy to reach back so much further to the Western Wall, we may skip back further still. Take, for example, the one topic that occupies the entire, 2,711 folio-page Babylonian Talmud more than any other: "carrying," the prohibition of transferring objects from one domain to another, or of carrying objects within a public domain, on the Sabbath. For those who do not observe this prohibition, I appeal to your intellectual curiosity. Where did this come from? It originates neither with Maimonides nor in the Talmud. It is not from the ancient Holy Temples nor even from the Prophets of Israel (save one). We stretch back not to the Holocaust 75 years ago, not to Maimonides 800 years ago, not to the Western Wall 2,000 years ago, not even to the Prophet Isaiah, some 2,800 years ago. Our roots go all the way back to the first Prophet, Moses, in the Sinai desert after the Exodus. We recall the generation of the desert, of the liberated Hebrew slaves from Egypt, not just in a ritual (the seder), not just as Jewish history, and not just as abstractions ("the beginnings of the Jewish people" or "the inception of the Jewish-Divine covenantal relationship"). No, we recall Moses in the desert for something very specific that was done then and sustained throughout the generations, down to this very next Shabbos. When the Tabernacle was under construction in the desert, as G-d had commanded in the Book of Exodus, our ancestors volunteered the raw materials, the fibers, precious metals and animal skins out of which the Tabernacle was made. One fine day, on a Shabbos, Moses told the entire encampments of the Israelites: Bring no more! Why? Because on Shabbos one is not to transfer from one domain to another; specifically, from the private domain (the Israelites' homes, their tents) to the public domain, the Levite camp, where Moses was stationed and the Tabernacle was to be constructed (Shabbat 96b). Think of this. On the very next Shabbos that I welcome this year -- me, you, here, right now -- if I refrain from carrying an object out of my home, I am under the spiritual canopy of Moses himself, of my people at its very inception. I am a direct link to the Israelite sojourn in the Sinai desert and to one of the first Words embraced in practice after the revelation at Mount Sinai. I am not just connected to my roots. I am living them. Copyright (C) 2019 by the Intermountain Jewish News From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 06:35:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do beer and whiskey not require bishul Yisroel (Jewish involvement in the cooking)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha A. Bishul akum is prohibited when two conditions are met: a) the food cannot be eaten raw and b) the food is worthy of being ?oleh al shulchan melachim? (served at fancy dinners). Beer and whiskey are made from cooked grains, which are not edible in a raw state. Thus, beer and whiskey satisfy the first condition for bishul akum. Nonetheless, Tosfos (AZ 31b: s.v. V?traveihu) writes that beer is not served at fancy dinners and therefore the second requirement for bishul akum is not present. This explanation suffices for beer, but not for whisky, which is served at fancy dinners. However, Tosfos offers a second explanation why beer is exempt from bishul akum. Although beer is made from the five grains, the bracha is Shehakol and not Mezonos because beer is primarily a water-based drink. By the same token, beer does not acquire a status of bishul akum because it is primarily water. Since water is edible in a raw state, it does not require bishul Yisroel. The same rationale applies to whiskey which is a water-based drink, and as such, does not require bishul Yisroel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 15:15:56 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:15:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav Message-ID: RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did. When a friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush, the Rav began to yell at him saying that this is false. I believe this Rav thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes. However, RSRH, following the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. RSRH writes, "Yet, even if we were incapable of explaining the strange events in this story; even if we were forced to conclude as the Ramban concludes ? , 'Our father Avraham inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land, about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another sin he committed )' ? nevertheless, none of this would perplex us. The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: ?Here you have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!? It does not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust. Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: ?Look upon Me! Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!? We are never to say: ?This must be good and right, because so-and-so did it.? The Torah is not an ?anthology of good deeds.? It relates events not because they are necessarily worthy of emulation, but because they took place. Rav Hirsch's essay about the education of Yaakov and Esav may be read at Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII) There is much wisdom in this essay about education. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Nov 27 11:50:12 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:50:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a > friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav > began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav > thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following > the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to > say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From sholom at aishdas.org Thu Nov 28 06:37:50 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237da176174e2f7bc95386dc5c7b4289@aishdas.org> RZS wrote: > On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >> RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a >> friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav >> began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav >> thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following >> the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to >> say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. > > Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. And Ramban, too? And, if so, RYL made a mistake, too -- the same one that R Noson Slifkin made: "rishonim are allowed to say that, but we're not allowed to say that" ;-) Chodesh Tov, everyone. (And Hodu-Day) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 28 08:57:43 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? Message-ID: I recall being at an Agudah Convention many years ago and being served turkey on Thanksgiving Day! >From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6105 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] Thanksgiving: Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Biur HaGr?a (Yoreh Deah 178: end 7) and Gilyon Maharsha (ad loc. 1). The Gr?a is bothered by the fact that the sugya in Sanhedrin seems to imply differently than the views of the Maharik, Ran, and later, the Rema, that a Chok Goyim, even one that is not a Chok Avodah Zarah should still be prohibited. Others who ask this question and conclude tzarich iyun on the Maharik?s shittah include ... ohr.edu >From the article On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. See the above URL for much more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Nov 28 10:31:05 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a 'holiday' and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving's origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. ---------------------------------------- But they did celebrate Mother's day? Veteran's day? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 1 09:32:10 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeitzei Message-ID: <64993E05-F027-4F31-89BE-8D9D0DF924EF@cox.net> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked. Chapter 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it have to say "from his sleep?" Of course it was from his sleep. All it had to say was: "And Jacob awoke.? Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt...? Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and THEN "And he dreamt...?? So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke ?from his sleep? which is redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if that?s the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first time should just have said ?And Jacob awoke?? I propose the following possible answer: In the first instance, when he had the dream, it was really a prophetic vision and it wasn't an ordinary sleep, hence, the word sleep was omitted. However, after the dream, he slipped into a regular sleep, and therefore it says he "awoke from his sleep.? From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 1 12:04:35 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bananas are Herbs Message-ID: <20191201200432.GF19738@aishdas.org> This video explains the difference between woody plants (trees and shrubs) and herbaceous plants. Bananas are among the talles herbs. And just what is a bannana "tree"'s "trunk"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMfTkDZlFQ So, the scientific taxonomy and hilkhos berakhos agree on this one. A banana is not peri eitz. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 13:31:46 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202213146.GA29446@aishdas.org> Rav Dovid Lifshitz didn't personally eat turkey because of iffyness of saying it fits the requirement for a kosher species of bird to be backed by a mesorah. Not lekhakhah, but as a personal chumerah. And yet R Dovid celebrated Thanksgiving. (Which was a more common sentiment in the refugee generation.) But he did so with a goose dinner. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 23:35:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Thursday Night Chulent Permissible? Message-ID: <20191203073543.GA8739@aishdas.org> I would strongly dis-recommend chulent before Shabbos lunch. (Be glad I am not yours or anyone's poseiq.) Here is my argument against. The Shabbos daytime meal is supposed to be more important than Friday night's meal. One is supposed to save their favorite dishes for lunch. The gemara even mentions chamin as one such food that should be saved! So what is Thu or Fri night chulent? It is taking a food invented for the purpose of contributing to making Shabbos lunch the high point of the week's food and being too impatient to get one's treat to show proper kevod Shabbos. Rashi (Gittin 38b) says that people who make Fri night the greater meal should fear punishment! See also AhS OC 271:9, who finds what he calls a "limmud zekhus" for people who serve their most special foods Fri night -- many of them aren't as enjoyable the next morning. But he says this is why we have kugel and chulent, foods that can remain on the fire all night. After seeing what is said about not saving special food for Shabbos lunch, and chulent is designed to be that special food, and having it Friday night, al achas kamah vekamah serving it before Shabbos altogether! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From t613k at mail.aol.com Tue Dec 3 09:31:18 2019 From: t613k at mail.aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] R' Osher Katz -- Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna In-Reply-To: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130117873.1655613.1575394278828@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends and Family, I would not normally send out something so personal but my brother-in-law, R' Osher Katz, was diagnosed with cancer three months ago -- Stage 4 -- and he has not yet begun treatment, because, for complicated reasons, he has no insurance and very low income. There is treatment that offers hope of a complete remission but it is unbelievably expensive. We have tried reaching out to many Jewish and secular organizations, so far with little result. My daughter Naomi has created this campaign with The Chesed Fund to raise funds for him to begin treatment. This is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. Scholarly Rabbi Can't Afford Cancer Treatment | The Chesed Fund PS Many people give anonymously because it's a public site and they don't want their name up there, so I don't know who gives and who doesn't. If you can't afford to give don't worry, don't feel pressured but say a kapitel please for a refuah sheleimah for Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna. --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com From ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 5 11:55:02 2019 From: ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca (Ari Meir Brodsky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Tonight (Thursday evening) begin Prayer for Rain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my annual friendly reminder.... Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily prayers, beginning with Maariv tonight (Thursday evening), December 5, 2019, corresponding to the evening of 8 Kislev, 5780. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. [Sephardim replace the entire blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to Prof. Lasker for the reminder.] I encourage everyone to remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at that time. Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/veten-tal-u-matar/ (Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.) And it's been raining this evening here in Israel, thank God! Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka, -Ari Meir Brodsky --------------------- Ari M. Brodsky Teaching Fellow Department of Mathematics Bar-Ilan University Ramat-Gan 5290002 ISRAEL ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 8 07:15:44 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayishlach Brotherly Love Message-ID: <52DF2CD4-5DD1-44B6-AAEE-C16FB12F5232@cox.net> One of the most moving scenes in the entire Torah is when Esau and Jacob meet after 20 years. Chapter 33, verse 4, says: "Esau ran toward him, embraced him, fell upon his neck, and kissed him; then they wept." The Netziv points out that all the verbs in this verse are in the first person and refer to Esau. "He ran, he embraced him; hefell upon his neck, he kissed him and they cried." All the verbs are in the (third person) singular, except the last one: "theycried." Both Jacob and Esau cried?such human drama and emotion! They cried. That's the very factor that made their meeting a success. Without both feeling the emotion, neither could feel the emotion. The connection of brothers is a paradigm for the connection of nations. We need each other, and in order to laugh together, we first must cry together. The Netziv goes on to say the day will come when Esau will truly embrace his brother Jacob in honest unadulterated compassion, then both brothers will cry in happiness. May we live to see this day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 9 09:38:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Balancing Observance and the Interpersonal Message-ID: <20191209173824.GA32478@aishdas.org> By R' Eliezer Eisenberg Teaser: Havolim Thursday, December 05, 2019 Vayeitzei. Reconciling LeChaveiro with LaMakom Overview After Yaakov had a dream where he received nevuas Elokim that told him to leave Lavan, why did he seek Rachel and Leah's advice and consent about leaving? 1. Rav Gifter When your mitzva creates a burden for another person, you have to discuss it with him first. 2. The Shlah, Reb Moshe, and lhbchlch Rav Sternbuch Mitzvos should be done with the understanding that they are Hashem's gifts to us. It is wrong to do them because we have no choice, and consider them to be burdens and hardships that we have to endure. It is important to understand this ourselves, and to explain to everyone involved why the mitzva is so right and so good, in order that they should realize and appreciate that Hashem gave us the mitzva for our to'eles. 3. The Seforno per Reb Chaim Brown Yaakov wasn't asking whether to go. He assumed they would go, but was asking for advice about the best way to go - should he tell Lavan, or sneak away. 4. Abarbanel The Abarbanel says in 28:16, on the story of the Sulam, that Yaakov made the neder because he wasn't sure if his vision was a prophecy or just a dream. This was, he says, Yaakov's first experience with Nevu'ah, so, as was the case with Shmuel Hanavi, he was not sure what had happened. If so, perhaps we can say the same is true here, that Yaakov wasn't be 100% sure whether it was nevu'ah or just a dream. I don't like this approach. It was not the first time, and he certainly knew by then that it was Nevu'ah. 5. RDNJS and ENE, crystallized by a he'ara from Rav Moish Pollack. This event is a perfect example of [baderekh shehadam rotzeh leileikh molikhin oso]. It seems clear that that the tzivui of Hashem was catalyzed by Yaakov's personal choice, by Yaakov's decision to follow this particular path. That being the case, Yaakov was obligated to discuss it with the people whose entire lives were affected by his choice. I really like this explanation because of how well it fits the order of pesukim and shtims with the story of Miriam and Aharon against Moshe. Discussion ... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:45:46 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ??? ??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????: The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it) [X] THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:47:02 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:47:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered Message-ID: Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide goes out" N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. Me- it's all about the demographics G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her original drive A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with women's issues.) E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold! Me- troop levels seem dangerously low M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it? E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. Me- see comment above Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. Me- or maybe yes C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic tradition. Me- amen. As in "instant classic" Really now Israel defines our Judaism. Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this] R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. Me- I hope that's true H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. Me- Ger vtoshav? From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 11 12:37:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211203708.GE8671@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together. > [Tur YD 116] ... because it is "qasheh latzara'as". And I think the tzara'as connection is key. Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a spiritual element. > The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) > seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef > [BY OC 173] Pesachim 76b. Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the "davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as. > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since > this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition > got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo > refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it) https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38 Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M. So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam (Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From zev at sero.name Thu Dec 12 16:05:33 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 12 18:52:32 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 02:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> References: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> Message-ID: On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. ------------------------- I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Mon Dec 16 08:23:08 2019 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I agree with Joel, not so simple. A few thoughts: 1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we are not meant to follow. 2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat (which only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small fish bones, which could lead to choking. 3. Source: the actual Gemara states: Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig]. Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it bad for odor and davar acher." Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous, rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first - if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor? 4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen: https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/ While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides, this study finds that fattier meat produces more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/ 5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy (?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like condition. 6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger; therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be understood ? and taught ? as merely customary. Alexander Seinfeld >On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. >>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the >>prohibition got extended so far > >It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can >cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. >------------------------- >I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the >danger >Kt >Joel rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Dec 17 09:58:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:58:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival Message-ID: For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/ [https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish Holidays - ou.org Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ... www.ou.org This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/ YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Dec 17 14:19:31 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. He starts off with: Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept. Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to ?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal. While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*. Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to the next generation. American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog. He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Dec 18 00:52:11 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> References: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> Message-ID: He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom ______________________________________________ I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century) THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 19:03:39 2019 From: hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com (Harry Maryles) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. ... > He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO > intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr > L'Goyim. Here are my thoughts: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1 HM Sent from my iPhone, Shirley. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:27:57 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] thanksgiving Message-ID: My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back: 1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?) 2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it as such) KT from a dual citizen Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:29:26 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them out there? KT Joel Rich From acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 05:32:33 2019 From: acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com (Allen Gerstl) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud. As a part of Talmud, Science (Maasei Bereishit) and Metaphysical Philosophy (Maasei Merkavah) involves knowing the works of HKBH with the goal of doing so to become closer to Him through evoking what is ultimately deep love (Ahava) of HKBH and wanting to "partner" with him in also helping the world fulfill His will and achieving such closeness. Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have explained this many times in this treatise. God is near to all who call Him, if they call Him in truth, and turn to Him. He is found by every one who seeks Him, if he always goes towards Him, and never goes astray. ..." This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models in our history. Kol Tuv, Eliyahu Gerstl, Toronto, Canada From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 18 14:51:09 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:19:31PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > See > https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ and part 2: https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world-part-2/ I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. 1. To start with the banal... The "hedgehog" metaphor isn't just about finding your company's strength and running with it. It's also about prioritizing other things out. We use the term all the time at work. We're not writing our own low-latency networking layer because there are people who do that full time. Our hedgehog is trading systems; why waste time doing something ourside that bailiwick -- find the company for whom low latency networking is their hedgehog. So, to really use the idea here would mean to leave learning to the yeshivish, davening to chassidim, go out of kiruv since Chabad does it, and just focus on leOr Goyim. Let everyone do what they do best, and hire out the other jobs to those who do each of those jobs best. Yissachar and Zevulun, but on steroids. The idiom was misused. (Totally irrelevant; it just felt good to get that off my chest.) 2. Second, a movement is a group of people who gather around an Ism, not the other way around. You can't save Mod-O by giving them a different ideal, even one you feel is related to their current one. That's killing one movement by creating a new thing to attract its adherents. Nothing too terrible. After all, the only value in a movement is whether it generates fealty to Torah umitzvos, not as an end in itself. You can't just tell people "here's your new ideal now". (Which is basically the same as RJR's point.) That mod-O crowd would have to buy into this leOr Goyim Ism for themselves. You can't just propose it in a Lehrhaus article. Look how many decades of leadership it took RYBS to put his fingerprint on the Mod-O ideal, and even that was only in the realm of nuance about what "u" means, and what "mada" does. You expect to totally redirect the community without having a rabbi's rabbi at the helm? Then figure out how to fire up a grass roots movement. Because we are not talking about a "hedgehog", we are talking about what idea people should put front-and-center in their life's mission statement. The target here is diaspora Mod-O. This leOr Goyim wouldn't be attractive to somoene living in a Jewish State. Nor to someone who doesn't believe in a Torah-and hashkafah with its openness to participating in general society. But it's not Mod-O's current Ism in any way similar in emphasis or behavior. 3. As for Torah uMada... I wrote here a couple of times that I don't think it speaks well to the masses. First, because RYBS's vision of "mada" really only appeals to the academically inclined. Second, because his "u" is dialectical. Not too many people even know what a neo-Kantian means by dialectic. It's not a synthesis. It is not compartmentalization of two opposites. It's finding meaning in their interplay, without expecting to get to resolution. Can the masses do that with Torah uMadda? Or are the outcome inevitably going to be primarily a population of compromizers and a population of compartmentalizers? TuM thus has the rare problem that imperfect following of this ideal is actually worse than not chasing it at all. Because it gives motive to compromising one's fealty to Torah! TiDE doesn't have these problems, since DE has more to do with being a refined human being as defined by being cultured. High culture, not academic knowledge. And synthesis, not dialetic. The Tzitz Eliezer, in a festschrift for RSRH, described TiDE as a hylomorphism (a tzurah vachomer). That derekh eretz is the substance to which a person is supposed to give Torah's form. AND, TiDE includes much of what R Gil Perl writes about here. But without making it the front-and-center. The idea of Yaft Elokim leYefes veYishkon be'ohalei Sheim is not just that Sheim should benefit from Yefes's yofi, but that Sheim has the job of being the moral and spiritual voice in the partnership. But again, making that aspect of things the centerpiece of the movement would be something new. 4. In terms of defensibility... We are given the whole Torah project in order that we be a "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh". Hashem introduced maamad Har Sinai with those words. Arguably the Torah is to the Jews as the Jews are supposed to be to the world -- the means of obtaining Devar Hashem. But, aniyei irekha qodmin... How do you make a movement about bringing Hashem's values to non-Jews that doesn't invest more effort in doing the same to our fellow Jews? The dialectic (sorry!) between universalism and Jewish particularlism can't be thrown out the window. Although, Universalism is in now, Jewish particularism being too close to the lately much maligned ideal of nationalism. I am not saying the idea that the Torah can be viewed as a way to make us a priesthood caste to the rest of the world is false. I am just wondering if that way of viewing the Torah can possibly attract people well enough to build a new movement around. And in fact in much of part II, RGP himself spells out reasons why, for which his solutions fall flat to my ear. The Post-Modern era is not one in which the idea of spreading the message to others is going to win adherents. His answer is to sure to brand on LeOr Goyim instead of Or laGoyim, to inform rather than to preach. "My calling is not to convince you of their certitude, but to humbly offer you a glimpse of their beauty." But it is exactly the kind of subtlety that would get lost in the translation to a mass movement. One slides into the other and out of fitting with the times. 5. OTOH, what is exciting many Mod-O Jews today on a spiritual plane is what a famous Jewish Action article (somewhat incorrectly) labeled Neo-Chassidus. A worldview built on the Peiczeza and Nesivos Shalom, Tanya, Bilvavli and the Chalban. With the music of Carlebach and lots of epigrams by Rav Nachman. The opposite direction from reaching out.... Deveiqus. A Me-and-G-d way of viewing Judaism. We even have a similar problem in The Mussar Institute. (Whose audience are "spiritually seeking Jews", primarily from the non-O world.) People are getting so caught up in middah work, the reaching in, that I have a personal agenda to focus on the bein adam lachaveiro part of R Yisrael Salanter's message. Perfection in middos being their maximizing our ability to be givers (REED), to be nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chazkel), leheitiv im hazulas (R Shimon Shkop), etc... Selling an Other-Focused Judaism, even one with a universalist spin, may not be the world's easiest sell. Myself, I would push an Other-Focused Judaism too, but without the deemphasis of ahavas Yisrael in favor of ahavas haberios. And, for that matter, leheitiv im hazulas applies to physical chessed to my wife, family, friends and neighborhood well before the hatavah of teaching the world what the Torah has to offer. My spirituality starts with concern for my stomach and your soul. If only I knew how to make that message attractive in a world where products are made popular by putting the word "I" in front of their names. But that's where my own quest as moved since the days when this list began. Mussar is a good idea, and one I hadn't given up on. But it never was a mass movement, and likely something that requires that much work never could be. But could in theory be practiced by anyone is a Torah based on the idea that Hillel's saying that the whole Torah is "de'alakh sani, lechaverkho lo sa'avid" was means seriously, or that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is a kelal gadol even after you leave the poster behind when you leave the 2nd grade classroom. A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit. If only I knew how to fight those elements of the zeigeist. But then, I am not trying to rebuild an already existing movement. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:00 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cellphones on Shabbos Message-ID: There is currently a thread on Areivim titled "more than one quarter of MO youth admit to using their phones on Shabbos", in which R' Danny Schoemann commented: > And I'm sure on Avoda we've discussed why and how using a phone > is Chillul Shabbos. If not, then maybe we should. I can very easily understand people for whom the temptation is so great that they succumb occasionally or even often. But I don't think that's what you're asking. Are you suggesting that these kids honestly don't realize that using a cell phone on Shabbos is assur? It seems to me: Even the most basic listing of the 39 Melachos is more complicated than is needed for this discussion. A discussion of Kavod Shabbos would also be counterproductive. Just ask them: "You don't turn lights on and off, do you? What the difference between that and everything that lights up on the screen?" Or ask them: "You wouldn't write something with pen and paper, would you? How is texting any different?" I concede that if we wanted to, we could get involved with all sorts of lomdish chakiras to answer those questions. But none will make a nafka mina regarding mutar/assur. They are all d'Oraisa/d'Rabanan distinctions, distracting us from the main point, which is that there is no way to use a cellphone on Shabbos except for legitimate medical needs. Kol hamosif gore'a. Comments? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Dec 18 14:37:11 2019 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:37:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel Message-ID: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah related): "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23)? Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information about this?? I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers.? Joseph Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 15:29:25 2019 From: rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> R. Micha, Thank you for including me on this rich and thoughtful post. Here are my thoughts, responding to some of your points in the order that you made them. - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? Did Chabad always emphasise the outreach which has become their trademark activity? I also wonder if the comparison can be made with the other movements that Rabbi Perl mentioned. Chabad, religious Zionism, Torah Im Derech Eretz and the yeshivah movement were all started by ideological leaders with a particular agenda. Was this so of Modern Orthodoxy? I guess what I'm questioning is whether Modern Orthodoxy is based on some kind of founding ideal and agenda which would be transformed if we were to go the path Rabbi Perl is suggesting. - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development in the Modern Orthodox community. It remains to be seen how much can be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer to is instructive. - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate central concept for the community. - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work you have given to the cause over decades. But doesn't a life commitment to Talmud Torah take work? Doesn't the Chabad shlichus demand self-sacrifice for others? I'm sure there are ways to respond to this, making chilukim, etc. but I am not as inclined to rule out the broad acceptance of an approach to middot, chesed, nosei b'ol, etc in our communities. As you know, I'm working on a conference to set a process in motion. If you don't try, you won't know! Best, Anthony Check out The Rise Together Project at and my website at Rabbi Anthony Knopf From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:58:07 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191222185807.GA18920@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:03pm CST, R Harry Maryles pointed us to his blog post "Of Hedgehogs and Ideology" at written in response to R Gil Perl's two-part essay on The Lerhaus. Responding to RHM's blog post: ... > That said, I do not believe that Modern Orthodoxy should make being an > or LaGoyim its passion no matter how noble it is. In my view it should be > defined the way it is traditionally defined as adhering to the ideology > of Torah U'Madda (TuM). And skipping ahead to his close for a minute: > Does that leave Modern Orthodoxy bereft of the hedgehog concept? > Perhaps. But in my view using a Mitzvah that does not really define what > we are really about in order to excite passion in us will in my view - > not work. I thought of this while responding to a very different conversation on Facebook. Someone advocated a more meiqil approach to halakhah on the grounds that the way O is done is scaring people away. I made two objections: C was only one failed attempt at this approach -- it just doesn't work. People just don't bother conforming to the lower standard. The other objection ended with an on-topic one-liner: You can't save something by redefining it. But it matters less here. We don't really need to save Mod-O as much as maximizing the shemiras Torah umitzvos of people who affiliate Mod-O. So, assuming I thought people would stay with that affiliaiton even as the movement redefined itself, I wouldn't object. But personally, the resulting movement wouldn't be for me. As I see it, halakhah has me prioritize those closer to me ahead of those further -- so immediate family, friends, aniyei iri, etc... and much further down are non-Jews. The triage doesn't fit making providing Kol Yaaqov to the community dialog our highest priority. The other problem is that I already bought into Mussar's adage that "my ruchnius means concern for my soul and your stomach". (Something the pre-War chassidishe rebbe who was the rav of the shtielb of my childhood also regularly said.) When it comes to others, gashmi aid is a higher priority than moral education. Again, a different triage. > Rabbi Perl rejects that. He references R' Norman Lamm who - as he points > out - literally wrote the book on that subject. Rabbi Lamm says that > TuM is not an ideology but rather pedagogy - a means of `arriving at > knowledge of the Creator through the avenues of science and the arts'. > In my view, that is a distinction without a difference. Aren't all > Orthodox Jewish ideologies ultimately about that? YU-style Mod-O is indeed Mod Yeshivish. The RIETS morning is no less a child of Volozhin than Lakewood is. But it's not true that "all Orthodox Jewish ideologies" are about "arriving at knowledge of the Creator". The Rambam would go for that. But chassidishe deveiqus is about having a relationship with the Borei, not learning about him. Knowing G-d, rather than knowing *about* G-d. More on this in a reply REGerstl's email, which became its own thread about the Rambam's notion of life's purpose. ... > Not only that, but TuM need not be studied only by > the elite anymore than Torah should. We each do the best we can with > the capabilities God gave to us to do it. Perhaps if you stick with *should*, but what's the motivator for learning mada for the majority of MO Jews? It's not overtly one of the 613, and the person isn't academic by nature, what's driving that time investment into secular studies. And where in the entire span of secular studies are they to choose among if they don't have a personal drive to pick up academic knowledge? On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:29:25PM +0000, R Anthony Knopf replied to my post, writing: > - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their > point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? ... Evolve is different than reinvent. Theseus's Paradox is a thought experiment about the ship Theseus sailed in stories recorded by Plutarch. During the course of his travels, say a sail tore and was replaced. Is it the same ship? Maybe on the next trip, he replaced the mast. Let's say over the course of his lifetime, every single plank and board in that ship was replaced. Theseus would have had continuous use of a ship, at all times it sure seemed like the same ship, and yet there is nothing in it now that was in the original. Is it the same ship? Identity evolves differently than sudden redefinition. But this is a bit off coarse. We're getting more caught up in whether, if the Mod-O infrastructure and membership would largely go for a leOr Goyim ideology, if they would still be Mod-O or not. Which gets more into the definition of a movement than either issues of right or wrong or of feasibility. I really wanted to focus on feasibility. I don't think MO membership would feel they're on the same ship if this were attempted. And so, it wouldn't work. > - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus > article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. > And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a > powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development > in the Modern Orthodox community... I think the question of ultimate purpose is a critical one, regardless of who we're talking about. I recently ran a workshop to help people write life- > be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of > "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer > to is instructive. But it manages to do so without leaving Torah uMada. It seems the Brisker tenor of Mod-Yeshivish a la RYBS is a less deeply held emotional issue. The feeling that we're staying on the same core idea is still there. After all, my youth included some very neo-Chassidus like moments at NCSY kumzeitzin. > - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding > an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the > difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than > "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of > Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent > academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate > central concept for the community. I do to, but... > - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a > popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work > you have given to the cause over decades... > But doesn't a life > commitment to Talmud Torah take work? But then, the learning that has become most popular is daf yomi. You get a feeling of acocmplishment. It's like the difference between a second hand and an hour hand on a watch. The second hand is doing 3,600 times the work, but you can see it working. An hour hand.... Working on middos is slow. There is no "I finished my first mesechta" or "500 blatt" or whatever. You work and you work, and eventually you notice the hour hand is pointing to a new hour when your wife says something about how you've been with the kids lately. And even that is months or years away from then you started. Well, now that I have split my dream into two, I can more easily articulate it. I hope. A central idea for AishDas is to plant the seed of "a vaad in every shul", paralleling the spread of daf Yomi. We had other ideas that we would "get to later", but really the only project we ever invested effort in was the spread of ve'adim. My dream was not that you would have a whole movement of people actively working on their middos. Halevai you could, but as you just noticed, I don't think the masses are ready for years and years of work before seeing signficant results. Character change is slow. Rather, I thought that the existence of those 5-6 people in the va'ad would have secondary effects on the rest of the shul. All the value we're supposed to be giving ehrlachkeit would stay in the discussion. We would be able to see a Yahadus in which how you act on line for the bus is no less a defining feature of who is "one of us" as is what a person eats. More recently, really since I was waiting for the editing of my sefer, I started trying to put another buzzword out there -- Other-Focused Orthodoxy. Because there has to be exploration on how to get to an ehrlachkeit-centered rather than frummkeit-centered observance through ways other than hoping the kind of people AishDas was reaching to would have cultural influence on the kelal. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:19:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] The Rambam's Hedgehog (was: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191222181924.GA22988@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:32pm GMT, R Eliyahu Gerstl responded to RGP's thesis: > I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's > concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct > to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be > considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. > The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch > davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: > Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud... I don't see two points here in the Rambam, Yesodei haTorah 2:1-3 and Hil' Talmud Torah 1:11. In YhT the Rambam defines ahavas H' and yir'as Hashem in terms of a thirst to know about G-d. Because, as I wrote above (in response to RHM), it seems to me the Rambam defines his "deveiqus" (as REG puts it) as an intellectual unity. "What is the way to love Him and feel yir'ah for Him? When a person contemplates His Actions and His Creations, which are nifla'im gedolim, and sees His Chokhmah in it... immediately he love, praises, glorifies, and mis'aveh ta'avah gedolah ot know the sheim hagadol..." First, in TT 1:11, the shelish betalmud is halachic dialectic -- "... until he knows what are the iqar of the midos [shehaTorah nideshes bahen] and how to extract what is assur and what is mussar, andthe like, from what he studied from the oral tradition." Not aggadita. We do find aggadita included with Mada in YhT 2:2 as the means to ahavas veyir'as Hashem. Different mitzvos than TT. To skip to the end of this post too because I want to respond to it together with the above: > This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing > on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of > HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by > a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models > in our history. What neo-Chassidus shows is that the Mod-O Jew is looking for some experiential / emotional Judaism. But in any case, I don't think the Rambam's parallel to deveiqus is a major element in today's hashkafic discourse. Too cerebral, too much aimed only at the academic. I also amnot sure the Rambam's hashkafah was particularly popular among Chazal either. > Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 To me, the core thought of this last pereq of the Moreh is his ranking of the 4 types of perfection the gemara expects of a navi -- wealth, health, intellect and middos. The Rambam flips the last two, not only in the order he presents them, but the Rambam is clear that these are asvending types of perfection. That only intellectual perfection is a permanent refinement of the most core part of the self: The fourth kind of perfection is the true perfection of man: the possession of the highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards God. With this perfection man has obtained his final object; it gives him true human perfection; it remains to him alone; it gives him immortality, and on its account he is called man. Examine the first three kinds of perfection, you will find that, if you possess them, they are not your property, but the property of others; according to the ordinary view, however, they belong to you and to others. But the last kind of perfection is exclusively yours... And as REG also quoted: > ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by > him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the > knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the > manner in which it influences His creatures in their production > and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will > then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, > and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have > explained this many times in this treatise. Really, more so than middos and character? And so I thought for decades, until I saw RYBS said differently. Not that I understand how RYBS reaches that concludion, given how much of pereq 54. And the opening chapters of the Moreh about how the eitz hadaas messed up the pursuit of knowledge by introducing precondition steps; the definition of nevu'ah as an overflow from the Active Intellect; 3:18 where he defines a homo sapien's personhood in proportion to their knowledge, so that a person receives hashgachah peratis is proportional to yedi'ah; and 3:51 and the castle garden metaphor at the start of the Moreh's closing section. Really, it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the Moreh Nevuchim. BUT RYBS understands this section of 3:54 as saying that even yedi'ah isn't the end of the human endevor, chesed, mishpat and tzedaqah are. Looking at pereq 53: This chapter encomapsses the meanig of three sheimos that needs explaining: chesed, mitzpat, and tzedaqah. And so on, until: We have shown that "chesed" refers to gemilus chesed gamur, and "tzedaqah" to any good that one does because of the loftiness of middos, to thereby complete one's nefesh, and "mishpat" sometimes has an outcome of neqamah, and sometimes tov. We already epxlained how distant attributes are [from theology][ that any attribute one attributes to the Deity yisbarakh in the books of nevi'im is an attribute of action. ... And then the Rambam returns to this idea later in 54. The navi does not content himself with explaining that the knowledge of G-d is the highest kind of perfection; for if this only had been his intention, he would have said, ... He says, however, that man can only gain praise for himself in the knowledge of G-d and in the knowledge of His "Ways and Attributes", which are His actions, as we have shown (MN 1:54) in expounding the passage, "har'eini na es Kevodekha" (Exod. 38:13). We are thus told in this passage that the Divine acts which ought to be known, and ought to serve as a guide for our actions, are, ch??es, mishpat, antzedaqah." Another very important lesson is taught by the additional phrase, "ba'aretz." It implies a fundamental principle of the Torah; it rejects the theory of those who boldly assert that God's providence does not extend below the sphere of the moon, and that the earth with its contents is abandoned, that "azav H' es ha'aretz" (Yechezqeil 8:12). It teaches, as has been taught by the greatest of all wise men in the words, "Lashem ha'atez umloa'ah" (Shemos 9:29), that His providence extends to the earth in accordance with its nature, in the same manner as it controls the heavens in accordance with their nature.... And so on. So far, all about knowledge of HQBH. Even chesed, tzedaqah umishpat are about knowing *Hashem's* HZu"M, and that there is hashgachah in this world. And then, this: The navi thus, in conclusion, says, "ki ba'eileh chafatzti, ne'um H'" i.e., My object [in saying this] is that you shall practise HZu"M the earth. In a similar manner we have shown (MN 1:54) that the object of the enumeration of H's 13 Middos is the lesson that we should acquire similar attributes and act accordingly. The object of the above passage is therefore to declare, that the perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired -- as far as this is possible for man -- the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek HZu"M, and thus to imitate the ways of G-d. We have explained this many times in this treatise. So, the purpose of all this knowledge is to know what to emulate. And yet the perfection of the knowledge is a greater perfection than the perfection of the middos one acquired by emulation? What am I missing? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 16:11:11 2019 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: In Avodah v37n97, one of R'Micha's last thoughts was > A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit < which brings us back to TiDE and RSRH's Mensch Yisrael. --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 03:18:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > What percentage of people would like to know how they are > really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self- > image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not > telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them > out there? Personally, I would love to know about the things I do that are viewed negatively by others. If I had that information, I could either correct my actions, or I could explain myself to them and thereby improve their views of me, and possibly even improve how *they* act. However, as much as I would like that, I generally do not tell others when I view them negatively. To do so successfully requires a great deal of tact and sensitivity, and experience has shown me that I usually fail when I attempt these things. I believe that this approach is supported by the halachos of Tochacha: attempt to correct people, but first, do no harm. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 24 23:14:21 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 07:14:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv Message-ID: From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, it should be done by example. My response: Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner consistent with the will of HKB"H. If the result is we are mekarev them (as imho it would be if we act this way), great BUT that is not our ultimate goal (much as we don't do mitzvot for reward, it's an ancillary benefit) Your thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Dec 26 09:42:22 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=96_A_Torah_View?= Message-ID: https://rabbiefremgoldberg.org/audio_listing/celebrating-birthdays-a-torah-view/ I think that many will be surprised by this talk. There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 26 20:05:48 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 04:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=E2=80=93_A_Torah_View?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F184740-02E5-426B-85CE-342B8AA10C63@sibson.com> There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL ______________________________________________ I gave a shiur on this a number of years back. My main take away was it should be used as an opportunity for reflection, Not A celebration per se Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 20:07:55 2019 From: jmeisner at gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:07:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel In-Reply-To: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:36 AM Joseph Kaplan via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel > in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in > Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah > related): > > "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah > scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival > in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who > were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, > etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23< > https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/babylonian_exile/>)? > > Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: > > ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any > assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely > the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during > this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the > assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information > about this?? > > I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about > is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows > what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article > and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical > sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher > butchers.? > I assume that the author was taking creative license based on Sanhedrin 38a, which states more generally that the galus of Tzidkiyahu was pushed earlier so that they would arrive while the charash and the masger of the galus of Yechonya were still alive. To address RDYL's question, what would such help have looked like? A brigade of soldiers (or elephants)? A steady stream of volunteers? Massive infusions of gold that could be used to buy modern weaponry on the black market? Considering the distance between Bavel and Eretz Yisroel and the difficulty in traveling between one and the other, this question may have a very modern bias to it. I was going to suggest that the king of Persia may have further objected to any of this assistance leaving his territory, but, according to Wikipedia, the Parthians did not conquer Bavel until shortly after the neis of Chanukah, prior to which it was until the control of the... Seleucids. Hence, the Seleucid governor of Bavel certainly would not have approved of any aid being provided to the rebellion in Eretz Yisroel. Did the decrees against Torah in Eretz Yisroel also apply in Bavel? I've never heard this discussed. More generally, it seems that we (or maybe just I?) know little about the Jews of Bavel during the time period in question. Ezra (and perhaps Zerubavel) left there a couple of centuries earlier, while Nechemya left from and Mordechai and Esther were in Paras. There are a handful of tanna'im called Bavli'im, but the center of the chachmei hamishnah was clearly in Eretz Yisroel. While it's conceivable (although perhaps not likely) that there were direct lines from the yeshivos of the charash and masgeir to the yeshivos of Rav and Shmuel, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was strong religious leadership the whole time that would have coordinated such an assistance drive for the Chashmona'im. Just a few thoughts. A lichtige Chanukah (What's the origin of this phrase, by the way?), Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Mon Dec 30 05:19:42 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Anti-Semitism is Out of Control Message-ID: <7172577B-31F7-4CA0-B25C-35C37FB57BFF@cox.net> It is imperative to address the rampant anti-Semitism which is on the rise exponentially. Please watch the following (under) 10 minute television interview of former NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind. It is time we realize that the laws of the ?rodef? definitely apply to the anti-Semite. https://www.foxnews.com/media/dov-hikind-hanukkah-stabbing-new-york-anti-semitism From micha at aishdas.org Tue Dec 31 22:03:37 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 01:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro Message-ID: <588c3f15-5b25-452b-9857-ca858cb7cd12@Michas-iPad> CC: RRYE So, RRYEisenman's recent Short Vort has been making the rounds. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1815470 (Carried as OpEd pieces in both The Yeshiva World and Matzav.) RRYW writes: Op-Ed: Important "Checklist" Of Things To "Bring" To The Siyum Hashas December 31, 2019 11:00 am As the horrifying events of Monsey are still so fresh in our minds, coupled with other over manifestations of anti-Semitism in the New York area, it behooves all of us to rethink our preparations for the great convocation of Jews on Wednesday in Met-Life Stadium. ... Keep in mind that this event is a momentous one for Kavod HaTorah and for Kavod Shomayim. The last-minute items to remember to pack: 1. SMILE a. Most important: remember to bring your best smile with you. ... e. Keep in mind that all of the workers, security people, police, maintenance people, cleaning staff, parking attendants and anyone else working are human beings. f. These are the same human beings who our Sages say about them, "Beloved are human beings, for they was created in the image of Hashem...as it says, "For in the image of G-d, He made human beings". (Genesis 9:6) g. You must smile when you see someone created in the image of Hashem. h. Can you think of any other greater irony than for 100,000 plus people who are the children of Hashem who have come to give honor to Hashem, not recognizing those who are also created in His image? i. Smile, smile and smile more at each and every person you meet. 2. Happy New Year! a. These people are all working on what is to them one of the most important and universally observed holidays: the day which is called New Years Day. b. It is totally irrelevant that these people are also getting paid ... 3. Thank You a. This might be the most important item to remember to bring. ... Most importantly, we have the opportunity to bring Kavod and honor to His Holy name. Note his repeated appeal to bein adam laMaqom (BALM) terms. Smile at a person because he is a tzelem E-lokim and it is part of giving honor to HQBH. Or qiddush hasheim / avoid chillul hasheim. And this theme came up more in discussions of this OpEd on social media. But I have an open question about this strategy that I have been chewing on for years. Maybe people here have opinions. We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom. And so, in the short run, it makes sense to sell bein adam lachaveiro by emphasizing the BALM aspects of it -- respecting Hashem by respecting a tzelem E-lokim, and chillul vs. qiddush hasheim. But... I am not sure if I like the message or not. Isn't the road out of this whole mess a realization that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is the more central principle of the Torah? If we reinforce the idea that it is only "really" against the Torah is it interferes with my relating to the Creator, will we be in the same boat a generation from now? Are we getting people to do the right thing, and atttidue will follow any behaviors we can encourage? Can we create the right habit this way? Or are we reinvorcing the imbalanced attitude, and we'll never get out of this "frumkeit" hole? I have picked up the conundrum repeatedly since starting on my book. I don't have an answer, though. Your thoughts? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and http://www.aishdas.org/asp this was a great wonder. But it is much more Author: Widen Your Tent wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "mensch"! -Rav Yisrael Salanter From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 1 18:49:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Av Message-ID: A thought for Tu B'AV: R'SBG (taanit 30b) designates the two most yamim tovim (holidays) Yom Kippur and Tu B'av. While the gemara lists a number of events which occurred on Tu B'av, I've always been partial to Yom Tvar Hamaagal (the day they stopped cutting wood for the wood pile). Initially I favored it as a paradigm for priority juggling (going back to Torah learning when your job is done), but it occurred to me that the pairing with Yom Kippur is exquisite - Yom Kippur being representative of the short spurt/high profile avodat Hashem while Tu B'av represents the ongoing low profile diligent avodah of daily life. We need both! GCT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Oct 2 09:44:52 2019 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:44:52 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Oct 1, 2019 05:57:56 pm Message-ID: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a few weeks. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 2 15:57:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20191002225720.GA3766@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 04:44:52PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: >> In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a > few weeks. I know Rashi says it's like "beshegam" with a segol, and then explains it as "bishvil shegam". And maybe the Torah contracts "asher" only when sandwitched after a be-? It would explain the uniqueness. But I find Ibn Ezra's comparison to the shin in shekhakha (in "ashrei ha'am shekakha lo") more compelling, and the Ramban did too. The Netziv has the shin as part of the shoresh, as in "mishagmaso". Etc... As RJFS writes, it's "one *possible* exception". GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder] http://www.aishdas.org/asp isn't complete with being careful in the laws Author: Widen Your Tent of Passover. One must also be very careful in - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF the laws of business. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 2 22:13:18 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut Message-ID: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. [PS: I'm not sure whether this belongs on Avodah or Areivim] -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 3 11:37:39 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 > We know that Pas Paltur, "Baker's Bread," is actually permitted year > round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all > one's bread products are strictly Pas Yisrael. But what do these terms > mean? And why should we be stringent with this, of all halachos, and > why specifically now? And what about Shabbos? > Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter > of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily > available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and > the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot > purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress > that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. See the above URL for more. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 3 16:50:05 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003235005.GA11274@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 06:37:39PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 >> Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter >> of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily >> available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and >> the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot >> purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress >> that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. So that while the Yerushalmi's case of eating chullin betaharah is more bein adam lamaqom... When it comes to pas palter during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah, are saying that for AYT we make a point of supporting other Jews, even if our bread may be a little pricier or not as tasty as the rest of the year. More a bein adam lachaveiro practice. GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger Mussar is like oil put in water, http://www.aishdas.org/asp eventually it will rise to the top. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yisrael Salanter - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:27:05 2019 From: simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:27:05 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut In-Reply-To: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> References: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:54 PM Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: > https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 > > It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The > author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and > the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. Powerful indeed, one of the high points of the RH liturgy. By the way, the London S&P mahzor and the Keter Shem Tov, both attribute it to R. Yehuda Halevi. From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:47:59 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice Message-ID: Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the current practice? GT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:51:42 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes Message-ID: Excerpt Recent correspondence: > Sholom u'vracha, > I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It > strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly > fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two > different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av > practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other > seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts. > How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz" [ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb] I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather 1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion) GT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 07:23:52 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population Message-ID: <20191010142352.GA31063@aishdas.org> One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers. This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as "clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os. Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole 6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the time the Kenaanim get to the scene.... See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel or numberous other links. They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 10 09:48:15 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 11:48:15 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these > activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? > A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom > Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical > instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies. Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments if they break while playing. It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another to continue these peripheral extensions. > On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived > the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen > Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason > presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing > and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning > a musical instrument. And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah. Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e. that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording. How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres, or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres. That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites "acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah would be equally exempt. And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments themselves. The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the first place. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: >That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod >haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites >"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a >waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah >would be equally exempt. ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3 and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY. For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 12:58:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted... ... > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the 9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians. Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3. There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to be about until at least 400 years after Chazal. In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah. Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique nighttime reading. Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat. It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside from it being minag, not din, anyway.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:59:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: > > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. > >But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of >minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is D'Rabbonon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 13:18:53 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > D'Rabbonon. Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level because of the act, not because of the date. Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 13:41:35 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22.7A.01711.4D99F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:18 PM 10/10/2019, you wrote: >Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? If I were in EY on SA I would not dance. (Truth of the matter is that I do not dance on ST anymore, given my broken Patella.) It does seem strange to me to have Yizkor and dancing on the same day. If you read Ya'ari's sefer you will see that the ARI danced on Motzoei SA and not on SA itself. He did not dance on SA itself in EY. However, in a sefer that describes him dancing it says mistakenly that he danced and encouraged others to do the same on the night of SA. This is not true. I note that in EY there are big celebrations on the night after SA with music to accompany the dancing with the Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Oct 10 14:18:40 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> On 10/10/19 4:47 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice > changed from allowing the body to decay and then ?burying? the bones, to > the current practice? > GT As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for farming became less important. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 06:21:52 2019 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > > D'Rabbonon. > > Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? > I believe that doing so would be a great Tikkun. The heter "lichvod haTorah" doesn't convince me at all: all the dancing and singing and drinking and shmoozing *while the Torah is being read* seem to me the opposite of kavod. Ditto the practice of calling up everybody in the shul, which is not even a halachic requirement. I only wish I could find a minyan that agrees with me on these points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Oct 13 06:03:10 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> Message-ID: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Sun Oct 13 07:21:13 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] suffering/inui Message-ID: I'm looking into whether increased inui/suffering is ever something to seek (or at least not avoid). Besides yom kippur and other fasts are there other possible applications? I've heard some say childbirth -any sources? Any others? Gt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandels at ou.org Sun Oct 13 07:01:43 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail>, Message-ID: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. --- Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On October 13, 2019 at 9:03:19 AM EDT, Prof. L. Levine wrote: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. Legal Disclaimer The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:38:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions: 1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods? Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum? 2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter? Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to be a staple also? Why be lenient? I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur. << Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of thought. >> If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as a snack, and not as a meal. In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas Palter. So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to consider PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:38:38 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mimetics Message-ID: https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/ > "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted > great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on > Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of > legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt > an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this > persuasion conduct herself?" Optimal? Mimetics be darned! Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:35:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? Message-ID: Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community norms...)] Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From chidekel at mail.gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:50:54 2019 From: chidekel at mail.gmail.com (Meir Shinnar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret Message-ID: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Seth Mandel > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers > (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent > of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were > known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. Meir Shinnar From mandels at ou.org Wed Oct 16 14:15:42 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:15:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it. From: Meir Shinnar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM > It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik > ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just > some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret > (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, > even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures > I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l > said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken, and he was much more than a "fellow traveler." But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases lahalokho. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel Rabbinic Coordinator The Orthodox Union Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels at ou.org From hanktopas at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:42:41 2019 From: hanktopas at gmail.com (Henry Topas) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: Mo'ed Tov: I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this structure has been instituted? Is it different in nuschaot other than Ashkenaz? Shkoyech and a Git'n Kvitel, HT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:00:21 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:15:42PM +0000, Mandel, R/Dr Seth responded to R/Dr Meir Shinar: >> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l >> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. > As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great > talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that > he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that > are against established halokho... Not my experience at all. He does work hard to find justifications for things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, not the practices of Chassidim. On the subject of Litvaks who considered the AhS one of their own: Add the early RMF, who wrote in vol 1 that the AhS was poseiq acharon, only to switch to saying so of the MB in a later volume. (My guess is that when R Moshe saw that lemaaseh the MB was being followed over the Ahs in nearly all quarters, he stopped holding out.) Also, R' Dovid Lifshitz and R' S Yaakov Weinberg both told their talmidim to turn to the AhS. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but by rubbing one stone against another, Author: Widen Your Tent sparks of fire emerge. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:14:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> Message-ID: <20191017211443.GA16981@aishdas.org> On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 02:01:43PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote: > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers ... True. But the Minchas Elazar's validation of the practice is so cute I just need to share it. (It's been a few years since the last time.) The gemara writes (47a): meisiv ha yasvei, berukhi lo mevorkhei Rav Huna bar Bizna and all the gedolei hador "sitting they would sit, but the berakhah they didn't bless". The Muncaczer wonder about the double language. Why wouldn't the gemara just say "ha yasvei velo mvorkhei"? So he suggests that the gemara is to be read as bitmiya: "Do you think sitting they would sit when the berakhah they couldn't bless?!" As I said, cute. Totally unconvincing to this Litvak, but I admit the creativity. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From zev at sero.name Fri Oct 18 07:41:57 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:41:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c715c42-4f5f-8013-d89a-fd77762fcb25@sero.name> On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Davening isn't structured with kaddish opportunities in mind. On the contrary, kaddish is an afterthought, tacked on to the bits before and after the main event. Since on Yom Kippur we (at least in principle) go right through the day there's no need to conclude each tefilla with ketoret and/or Aleinu, and thus no opportunity for kaddish afterwards. I davened at a Sefaradi minyan, where things were different. First, after musaf there was Ketoret/Ledavid Mizmor/Ledavid Ori, followed by a kaddish (though surprisingly it was not Al Yisrael), and then Alenu followed by chatzi kaddish. After mincha there was a perek of tehilim and alenu, each followed by kaddish. There was nothing after ne'ilah, but there was a kaddish after each of the sifrei torah in the morning. In addition, as is my custom, I learned Kelim 24 and Mikvaot 7 before musaf and again before mincha and concluded them after those tefilot, with Kadish Al Yisrael. I seem to recall there was also something learned during the 40-minute break before mincha, followed by kaddish Al Yisrael, but my memory is a bit hazy. (I do remember that mishnayot Yoma was learned after maariv, followed by kaddish.) If you had been at an L shul, your kaddish opportunities would have been as follows: After musaf there would be tehillim and mishnayos; after mincha there would be Ledavid Ori; and after neilah there would be Ketores, tehillim, and mishnayos; each followed by kaddish, plus one on the first sefer torah in the morning. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mandels at ou.org Fri Oct 18 08:13:10 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> , <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> Message-ID: From: Micha Berger Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:00 PM > Not my experience at all. [AhS] does work hard to find justifications for > things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me > tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos > do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, > not the practices of Chassidim. He works hard to find bases for minhogim of many groups. His defense of the chasidic customs that violate halokho, however seems to notable, because he does it for all of the three or four cases that are directly against all the poskim. I am not enough of an expert to evaluate whether it is egregiously different than his defense of other minhogim. But it is fairly well known that he became a great admirer of the Tzemach Tzedek after he first met him. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel From micha at aishdas.org Sat Oct 19 18:57:01 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Barukh Dayan haEmes - Rabbanit Shoshana Boublil In-Reply-To: <10375da9-e283-47e9-ae6d-25316c491142@Michas-iPad> Message-ID: <39cbf7cd-2d3e-48d7-b363-268c0ac5baf2@Michas-iPad> I regret having to share the news that Rt Shoshana Boublil has lost her battle against cancer. The levayah will be tomorrow at 12:30 Bet Olamin haYarqon, Shaar Ge?ulah Her family will be sitting shiv?ah at her home. The address was sent to Areivim. I would say more, but I have no idea how the laws of hespedim on ch?m apply to this situation. -Micha > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isaac at balb.in Sun Oct 20 00:33:15 2019 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini At erect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7F7B49-E256-4064-B391-46540CA77860@balb.in> From: "Mandel, Seth" One must also bear in mind that apart from his friendship and esteem for the Tzemach Tzedek (Agav, The Beis HaLevi also sent Shaylos to the Tzemach Tzedek) one needs to remember that he was Rav in a town populated by Lubavitcher Chassidim as I noted here https://pitputim.me/2016/11/14/what-should-we-be-doing-during-the-lifting-of-the-torah-part-4/ In respect of Hagba and how that is done. _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik Z"L From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:28:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Time for dinner on Shmini Atzeres Message-ID: Regarding the late afternoon of Hoshana Raba in Chutz Laaretz, Mishneh Brura 668:7 writes: <<< The Acharonim conclude that one should not eat in the evening until dark. However, b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi, he should *not* say Leshev Basukkah, because he already accepted Shmini Atzeres in davening and in kiddush. >>> >From this, it seems that the MB has no problem beginning Shmini Atzeres early, with davening and/or kiddush, his only problem is with eating. He explains this more deeply in Shaar Hatziuy 668:12: <<< The reason is because it is still part of the seventh day, and he is obligated by the Torah to eat in the sukkah. How can he eat without daying Leshev Basukkah?!?!? But to say Leshev Basukkah is not possible, because it would be a contradiction, because in davening and kiddush, he declared it to be Shmini Atzeres! >>> Writing in chutz laaretz, the MB clearly presumes that this person *is* in the sukkah, and the only problem is the bracha. I don't understand why the bracha is such a big deal. What's wrong with simply omitting the Layshev? Let's phrase it this way: This person has two choices: (A) At this time, during which there might be a Torah obligation to eat in the sukkah, he can eat in the sukkah without the Birkas Hamitzvah. (B) Because of the uncertainty about saying the bracha, he should avoid eating in the sukkah entirely, until this uncertain time ends. - It seems clear to me that it would be far preferable to choose A and thereby possibly do a mitzvah d'Oraisa albeit without a bracha, rather than just sit around squandering that opportunity. Why am I wrong? What did I miss? (By the way, please note the MB's words "b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi". I am curious what he would advise for a person who said Kiddush and washed Netilas Yadayim, but did NOT say Hamotzi yet. Shaar Hatziyun 668:13 (near end) is lenient for the last quarter-hour before dark, but what if it were earlier? Would he really tell a person not to eat yet?) None of the above would apply in Eretz Yisrael, where there are real problems with eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, even without a bracha. Similarly, in Eretz Yisrael it's not possible to eat in the house until dark, because of the safek chiyuv d'Oraisa. But my next question, I think, is equally valid in Israel and Chu"l: Suppose it is raining on Hoshana Raba afternoon - wither in Eretz Yisrael or not - and the rain is expected to continue into the night, and he is therefore planning to eat indoors. Is there any reason to delay dinner? The MB has no problem with davening or kiddush early, and there is no question of saying Leshev. So why not? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Oct 22 18:11:18 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:11:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon Message-ID: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, then how was it he ate of the tree? Does that mean that Chava already had the yetzer hara? And if not, why would she even have been tempted. With only the yezter tov, they would be like the malachim. [Email #2. -micha] In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash able to speak and cause them to sin? From arie.folger at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:42:01 2019 From: arie.folger at gmail.com (Arie Folger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Reb Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Reb Zev Zero gave an important part of the answer. But I want to take this opportunity to express my astonishment that not more people are realizing that the lack of 'Alenu after Mussaf isn't a minhag of Yom Kippur, but a result of the original minhag, still practiced in Yekki communities, that Alenu is not recited between two tefillot that follow immediately after one another. I.e. when saying Ma'ariv immediately after Minchah, no 'Alenu is said after Minchah, or, when Minchah is said immediately after Mussaf. In many shuls, there is no break between Mussaf and Minchah (actually, no break on Yom Kippur, period), which is why there is no 'Alenu. Since most shuls, however, introduced a break between Mussaf and Minchah, it stands to reason that we should say 'Alenu and Kaddish. -- Arie Folger, Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 23 08:13:37 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] blessings Message-ID: Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 13:10:06 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] blessings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191023201006.GB20617@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:13:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should > be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because > brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) I think the former, looking at the phrase in context in the gemara. R Elazar quoting R Chanina continues (Megillah 15a): ... For two gedolei hador were blessed by two hedyotos and they were fulfilled. And they [the gedolim] are David (Shemu'el 2 24:23) and Daniyel (6:17).... And then he continues about qelelas hedyot, with Avimelekh cursing Sarah (Bereishis 20:16) causing Yitzchaq's blindness as an example. Aside from the indications from the examples... Why would R' Chanina advise us to increase the chance of a qelalah working by believing in it? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is a stage and we are the actors, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but only some of us have the script. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Menachem Nissel - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 14:43:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of the Universe. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:32:03 +0000 Subject: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis ... GOOD MORNING! How old is the universe? 13.8 billion years or 6,000 years? Did Creation take place in 6 twenty-four hour days or were they longer? This week I bring to you a fascinating approach from a fascinating man. Daniel Friedmann holds a master's degree in engineering physics and is the Chairman of Carbon Engineering, a company dedicated to removing co2 from the air to solve climate change and ex-CEO of the Canadian company that made the robotic arm for the Space Shuttle. He lays out his research in his book, The Biblical Clock. Why did Mr. Friedmann start investigating the connection between the Torah's story of Creation and the scientific timeline? The Talmudic sages teach that 'God looked into the Torah and created the world" (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. 1:2). Mr. Friedmann concluded that if the Torah is the blueprint of the universe, then the Torah account of creation and scientific account of the age of the Universe must coincide. About 700 years ago Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the assertion that time -- while God was creating and man had not yet appeared -- was different than time as we keep today. Mr. Friedmann, based on this insight and on classical sources, aligns the dates of key events as described in Genesis 1 and 2 with those derived from scientific theory and observation. How? One Creation Day = 1,000 x 365.25 x 7,000 = 2.56 billion years. The factor of 1,000 comes directly from Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day" -- where we learn that one day for God equals 1,000 human years. The 365.25 number is simply a conversion from days to years (being the number of days in a year). The factor of 7,000 relates to cosmic cycles. The Talmud, (Sanhedrin 97a), which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." Various Kabbalistic works, dating back to the first century, write that there are 7 cosmic cycles of 7000 thousand years (analogous to the sabbatical cycles). The factor of 7000 relates to these cycles. (This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs). The Torah provides a detailed timeline of the creation events. Genesis describes the timeline for the formation of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Each event is provided in sequence with a time of occurrence. For example, we are told that the sun was completed at the end of Day 4, that life first appeared in the oceans at the beginning of Day 5, and that the animals were made in Day 6; careful examination of the Genesis text reveals about 20 separate creation events. Much of the information in Genesis is further detailed in the Oral Torah to reveal a more accurate timeline of events. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b) provides the detailed account of Day 6, hour-by-hour: "The day consisted of twelve hours. In the first hour, his (Adam's) dust was gathered... in the fifth, he arose and stood on his feet; in the sixth, he gave (the animals) their names; in the seventh, Eve became his mate; in the eighth, they ascended to bed as two and descended as four (i.e., Cain and Abel are born); in the ninth he entered the Garden of Eden and he was commanded not to eat of the tree; in the tenth, he sinned; in the eleventh, he was tried; and in the twelfth, he was expelled (from Eden)..." Mr. Friedmann then calculates that the Age of the universe from the start of Day 1 to today: exactly 13.74 billion years, coinciding with the latest scientific measurements. Beginnings of life: from first thing on Day 5 ("let the waters teem" Gen. 1:20) to today corresponds to 3.52 billion years which is in agreement with the scientific time for "universal ancestor" -- the single cell. Plant life (on the land): from hours 6 to 9 on Day 6 until today ("God planted a garden... and there He placed the man... And God caused to sprout from the ground every tree" Gen. 2:8, 9) corresponds to 426-106 million years ago which he reports is in agreement with the fossil record. The Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science.... ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Daniel Friedmann Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:38 PM Micha Berger wrote: > Isn't this the a minor variant on what R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote in 1979 in > "The Age of the Universe - A Torah-True Perspective"? > http://nleresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/the_age_of_the_universe___a_torah_true_perspective.pdf > If so, you might want to see R' Ari Kahn's obections in Explorations, which > he excerpted on the Avodah email list at > http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n080.html Hi thank you, no this is different from Rabbi Kaplan's work as detailed in my book. RK had the cycles of 7000 occurring before day 1 this was not in accordance with the Arizal. In the approach here the 7000 is for each creation day based on commentary on Etz Hayim This provides an age of the universe of 13.74 vs 15 billion and allows calculation of another 17 events All but one match scientific measurement. Sorry for the short answer .... From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:12:17 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:12:17 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Which gate did they use to go into the azara when bringing the korban pesach? Message-ID: It is clear that they used shaar nikanor but the question is did they use the other gates of the azara as well? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:31:49 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 06:31:49 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Oct 25 07:14:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191025141420.GE25728@aishdas.org> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 06:31:49AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get > 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly > changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up > with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? This is a problem with concordism in general. Look at how well the Rambam held up. However, if you believe there is only one emes, and aren't ready to simply dismiss or ignore whatever evidence we do have, then you would feel there is a duty to keep on finding convergence. Not in the tenor of "science finally caught up to Torah", more "see, the two needn't contradict; you don't have to choose." :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but when a prophet dies, his influence is just Author: Widen Your Tent beginning. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Soren Kierkegaard From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Oct 27 05:14:25 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Noach Message-ID: <562504E5-2AC5-4CBA-BD30-59C27C348441@cox.net> In Parshat Noach, Ch.8 verse 2, the word "vayikalei" (and the rain from heaven was restrained) appears only twice in the entire Bible. The only other place it occurs is in Parshat Vayakhel where Moses commanded the Jews to contribute materials for the building of the Tabernacle. The Jews responded with such energy that Moses soon had more than enough material and he had to tell the people to cease. (We should be so lucky today). The people dutifully complied, as the Torah records: "And the people were restrained from bringing" (Exodus 36:6). The Baal HaTurim who pointed out the rare occurrence of this word says that this connection reminds us that when God rains down His blessings, people increase their level of tzedakah. But when the rain stops, so does their generosity. (Actually, I would have thought it was just the opposite because if God did not rain down his blessings, people would be afraid that they've sinned and therefore would increase their level of tzedakah. But as soon as the blessings rain down, people in their prosperity forget others and are less generous. I would tend to think it really depends upon the person, etc.). From ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:06:53 2019 From: ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> References: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2019, 5:43 PM, at 5:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote: >The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had >when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of >the Universe. https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/aryeh-kaplan-on-evolution-a-missing-chapter-of-the-handbook-of-jewish-thought/ I don't like the Schroederian take on Evolution, but, regardless, a major discovery. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:46:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in certain cases). So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:33:32 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon In-Reply-To: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> References: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191031023332.GE14724@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 09:11:18PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil > inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, > then how was it he ate of the tree? ... The Rambam (MN 1:1-2) says that until the sin, Adam and Chavah's challenge was to decide between truth and falsehood. And the snake provided the falsehood that they fell for. Potentially along the same lines, R' Dessler says that until the sin the yeitzer hara was externalized in the form of the nachash. The sin caused the internalization of desire. Which also depends on someone who only wants to do Hashem's Will falling for the arguments of the externalized yh"r. > In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also > called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, > because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the > question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply > the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash > able to speak and cause them to sin? First, I think the "ruach memalela" of Unqelus that Rashi is referring to is not the power to speak, but having an internal monolog. The ability to "hear" one's thoughts is a critical part of assessing what one's thinking and a necessary element of free will. Which would explain why Koko the gorilla's (et al) skill at learning sign language doesn't pose a question about kinds of soul. (And could be why they didn't *invent* language.) Pre-fruit, this world and the olam ha'emes hadn't yet split into two. (R Kook) So Adam could have encountered the snake in a non-physical way. The nachash might not even be the physical snake, but the satan who was riding him (is that the Zohar or only Ben Sira?), or the angel in charge of snakes. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:04:56 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:04:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 15 Av In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031020456.GA14724@aishdas.org> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 02:09:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: >> And further ... if a woman converts for marriage, and the >> marriage is assur, is there any way to say the conversion was >> valid? I mean, there are pretty loose definitions of qabbalas >> ol malkhus Shamayim compared to what a beis din would hope for. >> But converting for the sake of being able to do an issur??? > These are great questions, and their answers are far above my level. But > I'll say this: It is not at all unusual to come across a gemara that says, > "You're not allowed to convert in this manner, but if you did, then it is > valid." And some of those leniencies raise the exact question that RMB is > asking, because if the gerus was done is a forbidden manner, where is the > qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim? There is a significant break in the parallel you're proposing. Someone whose geirus was done wrongly but kosher bedi'eved was converted by a beis din who did something wrong. It doesn't necessarily disprove the geir's qabbalas ol mitzvos, because (1) they're relying on people who are comparatively subject matter experts, not acting on their own; and (2) they aren't necessarily converting for the sake of being able to sin. And if (3) it's about wondering about the convert's QOM vs ulterier motive (like the Rambam's discussion of Shimshon's and Shelomo haMelekh's wifes), the convert him/herself isn't wondering. Here, you have someone converting just for the purpose of sinning. It isn't about the conversion, where the ball or sin is in the beis din't court. (It doesn't involve any questions of the kashrus of the geirus being valid by circular or paradoxical reasoning -- the sin doesn't have the self-reference nature of being in the conversion itself.) > By the way, where did they find a Beis Din in Moav? Yes, that was a > rhetorical question, intended to point out that if Rus and Orpah did have a > valid conversion at the beginning of the story, the procedure must have > involved some pretty serious leniencies. Well, if two famous people went to where there was food, out of the whole Jewish and Israelish peoples, there must have been at least 3 others. That doesn't surprise me. > Hmmm... Actually, if Rus converted at the end of the story, that is pretty > problematic too, because even if there isn't any "conversion for the sake > of marriage" to worry about, the Beis Din is even more surprising. (Someone > *might* make a case that two brothers could be a Beis Din for gerus, but > when Naami and Rus were alone they didn't have any Jewish men around at Or again, anonymous and unmentioned bit players. Who said they were all alone on the road? Maybe the road was better traveled than that? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:13:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] guessing at history? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031021308.GB14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 08:16:45AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I recently heard a shiur where the presenter described the "bad > scholarship" of the Torah Tmimah when offering the "misread abbreviation" > explanation (e.g. v'hazmanim really means fill in the holiday name). I > thought it a bit unkind since ISTM the guessing about the historical > circumstances of practices is what poskim do all the time (e.g. why some > women have a minhag not doing mlacha on rosh chodesh) I noticed that his father also gets very creative. The difference is, the Arukh haShulchan's creative sevaros are always to try to figure out how halakhah as practiced could have emerged from the texts. The TT doesn't have that limitation. But saying he was wrong doesn't need to be a value judgment. For example, his theory that saying "Migdol" in (after?) bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov came from someone confusing "B"Sh" for "BeShemu'el B" with "BeShabbos" is provably wrong. The Avudraham refers to the custom, and yet predates the Christian publishing of Shemuel in two volumes. Does that make the TT morally wrong for trying his best? Or intellectually dishonest when he clearly warns you he is theorizing? It is not unlike rabbanim who make other historical guess in the fact that he too gueses. What is different is that most don't have as high of a miss rate. Which means that you should buy into these theories with a lot of caution and independent research. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:15:16 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> References: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> Message-ID: <20191031021516.GC14724@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 05:18:40PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky > country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never > existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for > farming became less important. Also, when people were eating al taharas qodesh and otherwise were keeping all those halakhos seriously, there was a stronger drive to keep as much of Eretz Yisrael tahor as possible. In addition to pragmatic reasons to save real estate. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself, http://www.aishdas.org/asp "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now, Author: Widen Your Tent at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:20:03 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031022003.GD14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:35:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the > deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh > (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community > norms...)] How can it be? It's not like the chiyuv for the amud is really a chiyuv. Even qaddish is minhag -- and he could say that without taking the amud. For example, they say that R' Yisrael Salanter held that giving the amud to the other aveil is a better zekhus for the niftar than taking it yourself. I think that the main reason why culture so emphasizes this one ritual for aveilus is because of the number of people for which a year of going to shul regularly is the start of taking minyan more seriously for the rest of their lives. So, if we find other ways to encourage shul attendance (Qaddish is still an issue), even that motive is addressed. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a http://www.aishdas.org/asp person is to remain asleep and untamed." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 30 22:02:59 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/19 7:46 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn?t find it) although I?m guessing it?s based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty ? at least in > certain cases). It is indeed based on that. > So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei > mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is > kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] Bread is different, because the gemara specifies bread, and yes, crumbs smaller than a kezayit are beteilim and may be thrown out. AIUI one may deliberately break up a large piece into pieces smaller than a kezayit in order to throw them out. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 31 08:49:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031154951.GA2681@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in > certain cases).... The AhS OC 180:4 says that the worry about crumbs had to do with the Roman shulchan, which was a small one-person thing. And if you permitted the staff to take the table out without gathering the crumbs, they would likely do so even with bigger-than-kezayis pieces. (He even mentions a discussion in the gemara that allows hiring an am ha'aretz as a shamah.) But we today don't take the table out when not eating. (Which is why we need a ke'ara to remove or cover and then restore, as appropriate, at the seder.) The AhS says the problem is that people who wash before bread will disgracefully treat the bread on the floor from previous meals. The MB s"q 10 records a chumerah of not throwing out crumbs that total a kezayis. And, in accordance with the AhS's description of the motive, warns you not to walk on any bread crumbs. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless http://www.aishdas.org/asp he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness. Author: Widen Your Tent Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From penkap at panix.com Tue Nov 5 08:26:36 2019 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: <9D1EF0D1-F323-470E-AC49-C21245FA8691@panix.com> ?Re the discussion about a particular parnassa segula having to do with the disposal of bread, I always thought the best such segula was to get a good education and/or learn a trade. Doesn?t always work, I know, but no segula always works. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:00 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechilla Message-ID: An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:58 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:26 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:42:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Al tochlu mimenu na Message-ID: On the Mesorah list, we are having a discussion about the word "na" (nun-aleph), which often seems to mean "now" or "please". It was also compared to some other synonyms. I interjected that "na" also appears in Shemos 12:9 with an entirely different meaning, "undercooked". R' Zev Sero showed how this meaning is *not* so different after all: > Al tochlu mimenu na means "as it is now", uncooked. > Think "bistro", or "fast food". The fastest food is raw. It is a common error to think that "na" means "raw" here. Rashi on the pasuk defines "na" as "She'eino tzalui kol tzorko - It's not roasted all it needs" Rashi requires the Korban Pesach to be fully roasted, and it seems that even Maachal Ben Drusa'i would count as "na". Similarly, Torah Temimah there (#73 and #81) says that one who eats a Korban Pesach raw ("chai" is his word) has *not* violated this pasuk. (But he did fail to eat it roasted as required.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:06 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") Message-ID: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? The underlying motif of washing hands is ritual purification, similar to immersion in a mikve. The rabbinical decree to wash hands before meals is based on the purification the Kohanim underwent before eating their teruma offerings. The Talmud, however, gives a rather odd rationale for "mayim acharonim", washing hands after the meal. The Sages explained that this washing removes the salt of Sodom, a dangerous salt that can blind the eyes. [Chulin 105b] What is this Sodomite salt? What does it have to do with purification? How does it blind the eyes? Rav Kook explained that to answer to these questions we must understand the basis for the immorality of Sodom. The people of Sodom were obsessed with fulfilling their physical desires. Their concentration on self-gratification led to selfish, egocentric behavior. They expended all of their efforts chasing after material pleasures. No energy was left for helping the stranger; no time remained for kindness towards others. Eating a meal obviously involves sensual pleasure. The rabbis feared that since we eat several times every day, the importance of spirituality that truly perfects man can be decreased. As a preventive measure, the Sages decreed that we wash our hands before eating. This ritual impresses upon us the imagery that we are like the Kohanim, eating "holy" bread baked from teruma. The physical meal we are about to partake now assumes a spiritual dimension. Despite this preparation, the act of eating may to some extent reduce our holiness. Therefore, washing after the meal comes to counteract this negative influence. We wash away the salt of Sodom, the residue of selfish preoccupation in sensual pleasures. This dangerous salt, which can blind our eyes to the needs of others, is rendered harmless through the purification of "mayim acharonim". [Ayn Aya I:21] Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there. Bonnie Raitt Physical strength can never permanently withstand the impact of spiritual force. F.D.R. From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Nov 11 05:06:41 2019 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: <008601d59890$dc8ba6f0$95a2f4d0$@touchlogic.com> From: "Rich, Joel" ...Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? Many years ago (after reading the section in R Dessler on dreams) I had the same question. At the time, I asked R Wolbe z'l how much time/effort I s put into interpreting my dreams. He told me that when he was younger, he had a reoccurring dream and he went to the Chazon Ish to ask its significance and what he should do. He told me that the CI told him that today we not on the madregah that Hashem sends us msgs thru our dreams, and that he should ignore it. Mordechai Cohen From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:57:24 2019 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:57:24 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechila In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)?' Isn't that the same question as why we have the aseres ymei teshuva after RH, not before? After all, the purpose of asking mechila is that we can't have mechila or kapara on mitzvos bein adam l'makom until we've had mechila from those we've trespassed against (with apologies to external liturgy). So the minhag haolam re mechila and the teshuva of aseres ymei teshuva are all part of the same process and issue. The question of why the order of of RH/AYT/YK is what it is has been asked and has a number of approaches. But your question seems just part of that bigger question. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Nov 12 06:00:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Being Sekptical About Skepticism Message-ID: <20191112140022.GA6783@aishdas.org> From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/when-atheists-stole-the-moral-high-ground/ > The Spectator > Nick Spencer > 9 November 2019 > When atheists stole the moral high ground ... > Most of us like to believe that we believe what we believe because > rigorous reasoning and reliable evidence have led us there. Most of us > are wrong. It isn't that reason and evidence play no role in our religion > or lack of it; rather that they are saturated with deeper emotional, > social and practical concerns. As Julian Barnes writes in The Sense of > an Ending: 'Most of us... make an instinctive decision, then build up an > infrastructure of reasoning to justify it.' Du Perron was no doubt very > devout. Today he may well have been devoutly sceptical. But in neither > case is he likely to have been led to his dis/belief through reason alone. > That the emotions matter is well established in the case of religious > belief, as Stephen T. Asma's fine recent study Why We Need Religion > explains. But it is less well recognised when it comes to unbelief, and > particularly the history of unbelief. Here we are still wedded to the > romantic fable of fearless sceptics hacking their way through obscurantist > bigotry, armed with nothing more than their trusty sword of reason. See epigram in signature. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:37:18 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha Message-ID: Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:39:28 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah Message-ID: The chavot yair (252) was asked by a talmid chacham (TC) about the following circumstances: The TC's cousin vowed to provide the TC with weekly wine for Kiddush. The TC would rather use his own wine as he doesn't want to have a freebie with which to do a mitzvah (see Samuel 2.24:24) He fears however it would be stealing to use the provided wine as the cousin would not have given it to him if he knew he wasn't using it for Kiddush. The chavot yair provides a detailed analysis of whether such a condition is truly binding [the whole less than 100% free and clear sale topic is an interesting one - is it not a sale if the condition isn't met or is there a separate obligation] What caught my eye however was his endorsement of the TC's preference to pay for his own kiddush even if the wine wasn't as good! It's not based on the passage from Samuel [I suspect since that case was a purchase from a non-ben brit) but rather because "tfei hiddur v'dikduk mitzvah havi im koneh ladavar mkiso dlo havi msitca d'chinam dmistra milta yesh lanu od rayah mhazohar" it's more of a beautification and scrupulousness in mitzvoth if he buys it himself so it's not free and even though this is clearly logical, we have a proof from the zohar.] My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). My meta guess would've been soneih matanot yichyeh (it's better not to take gifts) but that would require not taking the donated wine at all - which didn't seem up for grabs. Any thoughts other than behavioral economics? (we value our own things more) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:07:29 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") In-Reply-To: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> References: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191118190729.GA14270@aishdas.org> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 09:50:06AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg relayed the following piece from Gold from the Land of Israel, R' Chanan Morrison, adapted from Ein Eyah vol 1 pg. 21: > The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom > and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one > should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? But does it have anything directly to do with the city's evil or its destruction? One would be tempted to say yes, because Lot's wife *looked* back at the Cities of the Plains and was turned to salt. And the thread of melach sedomis is to ones eyesight, of all things. But this is a reference to getting an actual salt that they were using alongside normal table salt (sodium chloride) into one's eyes. There is no need to take this out of the realm of physical danger. Salt extrated from the flats in the area has far more adulteration with potassium chloride than anything we would consume today. (In fact, the modern town of Sedom was built specifically for potash [a mix of potassium compounds, mostly potassium carbonate] works.) So it makes sense in mundane terms -- potassium chloside is a moderate eye irritant, and sites also warn about abrasion in the eye as well. And in fact, to make malach sodomis more symbolic would complicate the Ashkenazi neglect of mayim achronim. We don't wash because the salt isn't used. If the salt were symbolic of Sedom and thus hand-washing more in the territory of impurity, we would need to prove that the lack of using the salt sufficiently weakens the symbolism to allow neglecting the ruling. (Back when RRW was on-list, I noted that the Ashk - Seph split on this backed up a theory he repeated here. According to Prof Agus, Ta Shma and others [not R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik], because many more Ashkneazim came ultimately from EY, rather than the more predominantly Bavli origins of Sepharadim, we can find a number of minhagei Ashk and liturgical elements sources in the Y-mi or Midrashei Halakhah even when against the Bavli. The Bavli gives two reasons for mayim achronim -- a comparison to watchin before the meal, and thus about taharah, and melach sedomis. The Y-mi only mneitons melach sedomis. Which would explain why Ashk feel free not to wash when no such salt is served, but Seph do not.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes http://www.aishdas.org/asp exactly the right measure of himself, and Author: Widen Your Tent holds a just balance between what he can - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:16:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118191623.GB14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:37:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the > period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) The Be'er Heitev says that for men it's only until one counts. Looks like the usual "don't do your own thing you might forget to do the mitzvah" taqanah (but in minhag form). The AhS (s' 9) "vegam `atah yeish nashim" who keep this minhag. But the minhag was ONLY accepted by women and ONLY until sefirah after maariv. What "after maariv" meant for single women in towns where there multiple times for maariv is beyond me. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:29:25 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118192925.GC14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:39:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in > the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the > better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure > additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). I can't answer your "in addition", but in general. One Shabbos haGadol derashah R Menachem Zupnik included the idea that it is better to use wine you bought for the four kosos than wine you got for free (for example, in "shalachmanos"). The idea is that this is actually the finer wine, regardless of the taste of the two wines. And therefore, Ashkenazim would choose white wine they bought over red wine they were given. Whereas Sepharadim prioritize color over taste preference, and therefore over this too. Perhaps it's an issue of "Adam rozeh beqav shelo mitish'ah qavim shel chaveiro." (R Kahana, BM 38a) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 19 15:40:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: <35B73FAF-B266-4A97-980D-07F0F8014233@sibson.com> If one (or a whole community)normally eats sliced apple as part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 04:55:11 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as > part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make > a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for ritual purposes. My understanding is that this is exactly why we are told to have the maror in mind when we say haadamah on the karpas. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Nov 20 13:31:40 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191120213140.GQ29112@aishdas.org> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:55:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > R' Joel Rich asked: >> If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as >> part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make >> a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? > You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a > non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for > ritual purposes. To rephased RAM's answer in the terms I was planning to use... (Just because to the way I think, I find the first sentence below a clear summary.) Whether or not a food it part of the meal has little to do with the kind of food, and more with why it is being eaten. Yes, there are rules of thumb. Like assuming fruit during the meal wasn't really as part of the meal - which RJR's example of waldorf salad violates. Just as RAM's (deleted) example of maror defies the norms for why we eat vegetables during the meal. And is a close parallel to the minhag of eating an apple as part of a siman milsa. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 21 08:43:28 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion Message-ID: Please see the article at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5213 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Interestingly, overnight peeled eggs might actually be permitted according to several authorities, as Rashi (ad loc. s.v. she?avar) when explaining the prohibition omits eggs from the criteria.Additionally, there is some debate among several later poskim about what type of peeled eggs are intended for inclusion in the prohibition - cooked eggs or raw eggs. ohr.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Nov 22 09:11:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] "Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me" (by R/Dr Hillel Goldberg) Message-ID: <20191122171120.GA24498@aishdas.org> R Hillel Goldberg wrote The Fire Within, which inspired me to explore Mussar. (And is long out of print.) Dr Hillel Goldberg's PhD thesis became the book, "Israel Salanter, text, structure, idea: the ethics and theology of an early psychologist of the unconscious". Since, RHG inhereted leadership of the Intermountain Jewish News, published in Denver. He once again inspire me week's opinion colum again inspired me, so I'm including it in full. If you like your arti https://www.ijn.com/yes-directly-moses-speaks-to-me/ :-)BBii! -Micha PS: I noticed that K'tav doesn't list that book title with what I think of as "title caps", and I see RHG didn't do so with the article's title either. If someone could explain the rules of these things to me, off list, I would appreciate it. Bcc: Dr Alan Morinis, R/Dr Hillel Goldberg (Since I didn't take the time to reach out to get permission to share their addresses. Assume I will forward them any replies.) Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me [Rabbi Dr] Hillel Goldberg Nov 21, 2019 Columns, Opinion, View from Denver More venerable than the Kaddish, older than the Haggadah, earlier than Chanukah and Purim. A sense of Jewish history connects a Jew to his roots. It can also cloud those roots. Here is what I mean. If we ask, why be Jewish, Jewish history is one answer. There are many variations on the answer, but each one draws a Jew back in time, fostering a feeling of identity with Judaism or the Jewish people. Even so, these answers rarely take us back far enough. Consider the following reasons for connecting to Jewish history: I want to keep my own family customs alive. I do not want the Holocaust to be the end of the Jewish people. I know my passion for social justice comes from Jews always being the underdog. I relish research into my own genealogy. The more I learn about my past, the more I feel connected to it and proud of it, whether I am an Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe or a Sephardi from Spain, Greece or Iraq. I get the chills when I see Israel reborn. I sit in a philosophy class and feel special pride when Maimonides is held up as a major philosopher. I study about Rabbi Akiva, Rashi and the mystics in Safed, and I know I am connected to an eternal people. In the long arc of Jewish history, all of these examples are relatively recent. They are kind of like touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and feeling connected to the American Revolution more than 240 years ago, but then thinking of standing before the Western Wall, some 2,000 years old. As in, 240 years, big deal! I do not mean to discount my feelings of awe and gratitude upon visiting Independence Hall. But compared to Jewish memory, 240 years is a blink. The thing is, we may say the same even for the 2,000 year-old Western Wall, the most powerful, emotional site in Judaism. My sense of Jewish history may cloud just how far back my roots actually stretch. Just as we may skip over the Holocaust and Maimonides and our personal genealogy to reach back so much further to the Western Wall, we may skip back further still. Take, for example, the one topic that occupies the entire, 2,711 folio-page Babylonian Talmud more than any other: "carrying," the prohibition of transferring objects from one domain to another, or of carrying objects within a public domain, on the Sabbath. For those who do not observe this prohibition, I appeal to your intellectual curiosity. Where did this come from? It originates neither with Maimonides nor in the Talmud. It is not from the ancient Holy Temples nor even from the Prophets of Israel (save one). We stretch back not to the Holocaust 75 years ago, not to Maimonides 800 years ago, not to the Western Wall 2,000 years ago, not even to the Prophet Isaiah, some 2,800 years ago. Our roots go all the way back to the first Prophet, Moses, in the Sinai desert after the Exodus. We recall the generation of the desert, of the liberated Hebrew slaves from Egypt, not just in a ritual (the seder), not just as Jewish history, and not just as abstractions ("the beginnings of the Jewish people" or "the inception of the Jewish-Divine covenantal relationship"). No, we recall Moses in the desert for something very specific that was done then and sustained throughout the generations, down to this very next Shabbos. When the Tabernacle was under construction in the desert, as G-d had commanded in the Book of Exodus, our ancestors volunteered the raw materials, the fibers, precious metals and animal skins out of which the Tabernacle was made. One fine day, on a Shabbos, Moses told the entire encampments of the Israelites: Bring no more! Why? Because on Shabbos one is not to transfer from one domain to another; specifically, from the private domain (the Israelites' homes, their tents) to the public domain, the Levite camp, where Moses was stationed and the Tabernacle was to be constructed (Shabbat 96b). Think of this. On the very next Shabbos that I welcome this year -- me, you, here, right now -- if I refrain from carrying an object out of my home, I am under the spiritual canopy of Moses himself, of my people at its very inception. I am a direct link to the Israelite sojourn in the Sinai desert and to one of the first Words embraced in practice after the revelation at Mount Sinai. I am not just connected to my roots. I am living them. Copyright (C) 2019 by the Intermountain Jewish News From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 06:35:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do beer and whiskey not require bishul Yisroel (Jewish involvement in the cooking)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha A. Bishul akum is prohibited when two conditions are met: a) the food cannot be eaten raw and b) the food is worthy of being ?oleh al shulchan melachim? (served at fancy dinners). Beer and whiskey are made from cooked grains, which are not edible in a raw state. Thus, beer and whiskey satisfy the first condition for bishul akum. Nonetheless, Tosfos (AZ 31b: s.v. V?traveihu) writes that beer is not served at fancy dinners and therefore the second requirement for bishul akum is not present. This explanation suffices for beer, but not for whisky, which is served at fancy dinners. However, Tosfos offers a second explanation why beer is exempt from bishul akum. Although beer is made from the five grains, the bracha is Shehakol and not Mezonos because beer is primarily a water-based drink. By the same token, beer does not acquire a status of bishul akum because it is primarily water. Since water is edible in a raw state, it does not require bishul Yisroel. The same rationale applies to whiskey which is a water-based drink, and as such, does not require bishul Yisroel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 15:15:56 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:15:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav Message-ID: RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did. When a friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush, the Rav began to yell at him saying that this is false. I believe this Rav thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes. However, RSRH, following the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. RSRH writes, "Yet, even if we were incapable of explaining the strange events in this story; even if we were forced to conclude as the Ramban concludes ? , 'Our father Avraham inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land, about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another sin he committed )' ? nevertheless, none of this would perplex us. The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: ?Here you have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!? It does not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust. Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: ?Look upon Me! Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!? We are never to say: ?This must be good and right, because so-and-so did it.? The Torah is not an ?anthology of good deeds.? It relates events not because they are necessarily worthy of emulation, but because they took place. Rav Hirsch's essay about the education of Yaakov and Esav may be read at Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII) There is much wisdom in this essay about education. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Nov 27 11:50:12 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:50:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a > friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav > began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav > thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following > the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to > say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From sholom at aishdas.org Thu Nov 28 06:37:50 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237da176174e2f7bc95386dc5c7b4289@aishdas.org> RZS wrote: > On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >> RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a >> friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav >> began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav >> thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following >> the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to >> say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. > > Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. And Ramban, too? And, if so, RYL made a mistake, too -- the same one that R Noson Slifkin made: "rishonim are allowed to say that, but we're not allowed to say that" ;-) Chodesh Tov, everyone. (And Hodu-Day) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 28 08:57:43 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? Message-ID: I recall being at an Agudah Convention many years ago and being served turkey on Thanksgiving Day! >From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6105 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] Thanksgiving: Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Biur HaGr?a (Yoreh Deah 178: end 7) and Gilyon Maharsha (ad loc. 1). The Gr?a is bothered by the fact that the sugya in Sanhedrin seems to imply differently than the views of the Maharik, Ran, and later, the Rema, that a Chok Goyim, even one that is not a Chok Avodah Zarah should still be prohibited. Others who ask this question and conclude tzarich iyun on the Maharik?s shittah include ... ohr.edu >From the article On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. See the above URL for much more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Nov 28 10:31:05 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a 'holiday' and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving's origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. ---------------------------------------- But they did celebrate Mother's day? Veteran's day? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 1 09:32:10 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeitzei Message-ID: <64993E05-F027-4F31-89BE-8D9D0DF924EF@cox.net> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked. Chapter 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it have to say "from his sleep?" Of course it was from his sleep. All it had to say was: "And Jacob awoke.? Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt...? Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and THEN "And he dreamt...?? So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke ?from his sleep? which is redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if that?s the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first time should just have said ?And Jacob awoke?? I propose the following possible answer: In the first instance, when he had the dream, it was really a prophetic vision and it wasn't an ordinary sleep, hence, the word sleep was omitted. However, after the dream, he slipped into a regular sleep, and therefore it says he "awoke from his sleep.? From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 1 12:04:35 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bananas are Herbs Message-ID: <20191201200432.GF19738@aishdas.org> This video explains the difference between woody plants (trees and shrubs) and herbaceous plants. Bananas are among the talles herbs. And just what is a bannana "tree"'s "trunk"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMfTkDZlFQ So, the scientific taxonomy and hilkhos berakhos agree on this one. A banana is not peri eitz. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 13:31:46 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202213146.GA29446@aishdas.org> Rav Dovid Lifshitz didn't personally eat turkey because of iffyness of saying it fits the requirement for a kosher species of bird to be backed by a mesorah. Not lekhakhah, but as a personal chumerah. And yet R Dovid celebrated Thanksgiving. (Which was a more common sentiment in the refugee generation.) But he did so with a goose dinner. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 23:35:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Thursday Night Chulent Permissible? Message-ID: <20191203073543.GA8739@aishdas.org> I would strongly dis-recommend chulent before Shabbos lunch. (Be glad I am not yours or anyone's poseiq.) Here is my argument against. The Shabbos daytime meal is supposed to be more important than Friday night's meal. One is supposed to save their favorite dishes for lunch. The gemara even mentions chamin as one such food that should be saved! So what is Thu or Fri night chulent? It is taking a food invented for the purpose of contributing to making Shabbos lunch the high point of the week's food and being too impatient to get one's treat to show proper kevod Shabbos. Rashi (Gittin 38b) says that people who make Fri night the greater meal should fear punishment! See also AhS OC 271:9, who finds what he calls a "limmud zekhus" for people who serve their most special foods Fri night -- many of them aren't as enjoyable the next morning. But he says this is why we have kugel and chulent, foods that can remain on the fire all night. After seeing what is said about not saving special food for Shabbos lunch, and chulent is designed to be that special food, and having it Friday night, al achas kamah vekamah serving it before Shabbos altogether! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From t613k at mail.aol.com Tue Dec 3 09:31:18 2019 From: t613k at mail.aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] R' Osher Katz -- Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna In-Reply-To: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130117873.1655613.1575394278828@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends and Family, I would not normally send out something so personal but my brother-in-law, R' Osher Katz, was diagnosed with cancer three months ago -- Stage 4 -- and he has not yet begun treatment, because, for complicated reasons, he has no insurance and very low income. There is treatment that offers hope of a complete remission but it is unbelievably expensive. We have tried reaching out to many Jewish and secular organizations, so far with little result. My daughter Naomi has created this campaign with The Chesed Fund to raise funds for him to begin treatment. This is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. Scholarly Rabbi Can't Afford Cancer Treatment | The Chesed Fund PS Many people give anonymously because it's a public site and they don't want their name up there, so I don't know who gives and who doesn't. If you can't afford to give don't worry, don't feel pressured but say a kapitel please for a refuah sheleimah for Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna. --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com From ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 5 11:55:02 2019 From: ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca (Ari Meir Brodsky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Tonight (Thursday evening) begin Prayer for Rain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my annual friendly reminder.... Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily prayers, beginning with Maariv tonight (Thursday evening), December 5, 2019, corresponding to the evening of 8 Kislev, 5780. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. [Sephardim replace the entire blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to Prof. Lasker for the reminder.] I encourage everyone to remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at that time. Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/veten-tal-u-matar/ (Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.) And it's been raining this evening here in Israel, thank God! Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka, -Ari Meir Brodsky --------------------- Ari M. Brodsky Teaching Fellow Department of Mathematics Bar-Ilan University Ramat-Gan 5290002 ISRAEL ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 8 07:15:44 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayishlach Brotherly Love Message-ID: <52DF2CD4-5DD1-44B6-AAEE-C16FB12F5232@cox.net> One of the most moving scenes in the entire Torah is when Esau and Jacob meet after 20 years. Chapter 33, verse 4, says: "Esau ran toward him, embraced him, fell upon his neck, and kissed him; then they wept." The Netziv points out that all the verbs in this verse are in the first person and refer to Esau. "He ran, he embraced him; hefell upon his neck, he kissed him and they cried." All the verbs are in the (third person) singular, except the last one: "theycried." Both Jacob and Esau cried?such human drama and emotion! They cried. That's the very factor that made their meeting a success. Without both feeling the emotion, neither could feel the emotion. The connection of brothers is a paradigm for the connection of nations. We need each other, and in order to laugh together, we first must cry together. The Netziv goes on to say the day will come when Esau will truly embrace his brother Jacob in honest unadulterated compassion, then both brothers will cry in happiness. May we live to see this day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 9 09:38:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Balancing Observance and the Interpersonal Message-ID: <20191209173824.GA32478@aishdas.org> By R' Eliezer Eisenberg Teaser: Havolim Thursday, December 05, 2019 Vayeitzei. Reconciling LeChaveiro with LaMakom Overview After Yaakov had a dream where he received nevuas Elokim that told him to leave Lavan, why did he seek Rachel and Leah's advice and consent about leaving? 1. Rav Gifter When your mitzva creates a burden for another person, you have to discuss it with him first. 2. The Shlah, Reb Moshe, and lhbchlch Rav Sternbuch Mitzvos should be done with the understanding that they are Hashem's gifts to us. It is wrong to do them because we have no choice, and consider them to be burdens and hardships that we have to endure. It is important to understand this ourselves, and to explain to everyone involved why the mitzva is so right and so good, in order that they should realize and appreciate that Hashem gave us the mitzva for our to'eles. 3. The Seforno per Reb Chaim Brown Yaakov wasn't asking whether to go. He assumed they would go, but was asking for advice about the best way to go - should he tell Lavan, or sneak away. 4. Abarbanel The Abarbanel says in 28:16, on the story of the Sulam, that Yaakov made the neder because he wasn't sure if his vision was a prophecy or just a dream. This was, he says, Yaakov's first experience with Nevu'ah, so, as was the case with Shmuel Hanavi, he was not sure what had happened. If so, perhaps we can say the same is true here, that Yaakov wasn't be 100% sure whether it was nevu'ah or just a dream. I don't like this approach. It was not the first time, and he certainly knew by then that it was Nevu'ah. 5. RDNJS and ENE, crystallized by a he'ara from Rav Moish Pollack. This event is a perfect example of [baderekh shehadam rotzeh leileikh molikhin oso]. It seems clear that that the tzivui of Hashem was catalyzed by Yaakov's personal choice, by Yaakov's decision to follow this particular path. That being the case, Yaakov was obligated to discuss it with the people whose entire lives were affected by his choice. I really like this explanation because of how well it fits the order of pesukim and shtims with the story of Miriam and Aharon against Moshe. Discussion ... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:45:46 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ??? ??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????: The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it) [X] THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:47:02 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:47:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered Message-ID: Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide goes out" N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. Me- it's all about the demographics G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her original drive A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with women's issues.) E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold! Me- troop levels seem dangerously low M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it? E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. Me- see comment above Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. Me- or maybe yes C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic tradition. Me- amen. As in "instant classic" Really now Israel defines our Judaism. Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this] R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. Me- I hope that's true H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. Me- Ger vtoshav? From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 11 12:37:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211203708.GE8671@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together. > [Tur YD 116] ... because it is "qasheh latzara'as". And I think the tzara'as connection is key. Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a spiritual element. > The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) > seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef > [BY OC 173] Pesachim 76b. Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the "davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as. > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since > this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition > got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo > refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it) https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38 Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M. So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam (Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From zev at sero.name Thu Dec 12 16:05:33 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 12 18:52:32 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 02:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> References: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> Message-ID: On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. ------------------------- I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Mon Dec 16 08:23:08 2019 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I agree with Joel, not so simple. A few thoughts: 1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we are not meant to follow. 2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat (which only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small fish bones, which could lead to choking. 3. Source: the actual Gemara states: Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig]. Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it bad for odor and davar acher." Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous, rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first - if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor? 4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen: https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/ While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides, this study finds that fattier meat produces more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/ 5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy (?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like condition. 6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger; therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be understood ? and taught ? as merely customary. Alexander Seinfeld >On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. >>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the >>prohibition got extended so far > >It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can >cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. >------------------------- >I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the >danger >Kt >Joel rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Dec 17 09:58:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:58:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival Message-ID: For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/ [https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish Holidays - ou.org Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ... www.ou.org This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/ YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Dec 17 14:19:31 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. He starts off with: Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept. Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to ?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal. While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*. Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to the next generation. American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog. He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Dec 18 00:52:11 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> References: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> Message-ID: He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom ______________________________________________ I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century) THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 19:03:39 2019 From: hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com (Harry Maryles) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. ... > He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO > intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr > L'Goyim. Here are my thoughts: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1 HM Sent from my iPhone, Shirley. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:27:57 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] thanksgiving Message-ID: My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back: 1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?) 2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it as such) KT from a dual citizen Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:29:26 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them out there? KT Joel Rich From acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 05:32:33 2019 From: acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com (Allen Gerstl) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud. As a part of Talmud, Science (Maasei Bereishit) and Metaphysical Philosophy (Maasei Merkavah) involves knowing the works of HKBH with the goal of doing so to become closer to Him through evoking what is ultimately deep love (Ahava) of HKBH and wanting to "partner" with him in also helping the world fulfill His will and achieving such closeness. Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have explained this many times in this treatise. God is near to all who call Him, if they call Him in truth, and turn to Him. He is found by every one who seeks Him, if he always goes towards Him, and never goes astray. ..." This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models in our history. Kol Tuv, Eliyahu Gerstl, Toronto, Canada From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 18 14:51:09 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:19:31PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > See > https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ and part 2: https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world-part-2/ I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. 1. To start with the banal... The "hedgehog" metaphor isn't just about finding your company's strength and running with it. It's also about prioritizing other things out. We use the term all the time at work. We're not writing our own low-latency networking layer because there are people who do that full time. Our hedgehog is trading systems; why waste time doing something ourside that bailiwick -- find the company for whom low latency networking is their hedgehog. So, to really use the idea here would mean to leave learning to the yeshivish, davening to chassidim, go out of kiruv since Chabad does it, and just focus on leOr Goyim. Let everyone do what they do best, and hire out the other jobs to those who do each of those jobs best. Yissachar and Zevulun, but on steroids. The idiom was misused. (Totally irrelevant; it just felt good to get that off my chest.) 2. Second, a movement is a group of people who gather around an Ism, not the other way around. You can't save Mod-O by giving them a different ideal, even one you feel is related to their current one. That's killing one movement by creating a new thing to attract its adherents. Nothing too terrible. After all, the only value in a movement is whether it generates fealty to Torah umitzvos, not as an end in itself. You can't just tell people "here's your new ideal now". (Which is basically the same as RJR's point.) That mod-O crowd would have to buy into this leOr Goyim Ism for themselves. You can't just propose it in a Lehrhaus article. Look how many decades of leadership it took RYBS to put his fingerprint on the Mod-O ideal, and even that was only in the realm of nuance about what "u" means, and what "mada" does. You expect to totally redirect the community without having a rabbi's rabbi at the helm? Then figure out how to fire up a grass roots movement. Because we are not talking about a "hedgehog", we are talking about what idea people should put front-and-center in their life's mission statement. The target here is diaspora Mod-O. This leOr Goyim wouldn't be attractive to somoene living in a Jewish State. Nor to someone who doesn't believe in a Torah-and hashkafah with its openness to participating in general society. But it's not Mod-O's current Ism in any way similar in emphasis or behavior. 3. As for Torah uMada... I wrote here a couple of times that I don't think it speaks well to the masses. First, because RYBS's vision of "mada" really only appeals to the academically inclined. Second, because his "u" is dialectical. Not too many people even know what a neo-Kantian means by dialectic. It's not a synthesis. It is not compartmentalization of two opposites. It's finding meaning in their interplay, without expecting to get to resolution. Can the masses do that with Torah uMadda? Or are the outcome inevitably going to be primarily a population of compromizers and a population of compartmentalizers? TuM thus has the rare problem that imperfect following of this ideal is actually worse than not chasing it at all. Because it gives motive to compromising one's fealty to Torah! TiDE doesn't have these problems, since DE has more to do with being a refined human being as defined by being cultured. High culture, not academic knowledge. And synthesis, not dialetic. The Tzitz Eliezer, in a festschrift for RSRH, described TiDE as a hylomorphism (a tzurah vachomer). That derekh eretz is the substance to which a person is supposed to give Torah's form. AND, TiDE includes much of what R Gil Perl writes about here. But without making it the front-and-center. The idea of Yaft Elokim leYefes veYishkon be'ohalei Sheim is not just that Sheim should benefit from Yefes's yofi, but that Sheim has the job of being the moral and spiritual voice in the partnership. But again, making that aspect of things the centerpiece of the movement would be something new. 4. In terms of defensibility... We are given the whole Torah project in order that we be a "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh". Hashem introduced maamad Har Sinai with those words. Arguably the Torah is to the Jews as the Jews are supposed to be to the world -- the means of obtaining Devar Hashem. But, aniyei irekha qodmin... How do you make a movement about bringing Hashem's values to non-Jews that doesn't invest more effort in doing the same to our fellow Jews? The dialectic (sorry!) between universalism and Jewish particularlism can't be thrown out the window. Although, Universalism is in now, Jewish particularism being too close to the lately much maligned ideal of nationalism. I am not saying the idea that the Torah can be viewed as a way to make us a priesthood caste to the rest of the world is false. I am just wondering if that way of viewing the Torah can possibly attract people well enough to build a new movement around. And in fact in much of part II, RGP himself spells out reasons why, for which his solutions fall flat to my ear. The Post-Modern era is not one in which the idea of spreading the message to others is going to win adherents. His answer is to sure to brand on LeOr Goyim instead of Or laGoyim, to inform rather than to preach. "My calling is not to convince you of their certitude, but to humbly offer you a glimpse of their beauty." But it is exactly the kind of subtlety that would get lost in the translation to a mass movement. One slides into the other and out of fitting with the times. 5. OTOH, what is exciting many Mod-O Jews today on a spiritual plane is what a famous Jewish Action article (somewhat incorrectly) labeled Neo-Chassidus. A worldview built on the Peiczeza and Nesivos Shalom, Tanya, Bilvavli and the Chalban. With the music of Carlebach and lots of epigrams by Rav Nachman. The opposite direction from reaching out.... Deveiqus. A Me-and-G-d way of viewing Judaism. We even have a similar problem in The Mussar Institute. (Whose audience are "spiritually seeking Jews", primarily from the non-O world.) People are getting so caught up in middah work, the reaching in, that I have a personal agenda to focus on the bein adam lachaveiro part of R Yisrael Salanter's message. Perfection in middos being their maximizing our ability to be givers (REED), to be nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chazkel), leheitiv im hazulas (R Shimon Shkop), etc... Selling an Other-Focused Judaism, even one with a universalist spin, may not be the world's easiest sell. Myself, I would push an Other-Focused Judaism too, but without the deemphasis of ahavas Yisrael in favor of ahavas haberios. And, for that matter, leheitiv im hazulas applies to physical chessed to my wife, family, friends and neighborhood well before the hatavah of teaching the world what the Torah has to offer. My spirituality starts with concern for my stomach and your soul. If only I knew how to make that message attractive in a world where products are made popular by putting the word "I" in front of their names. But that's where my own quest as moved since the days when this list began. Mussar is a good idea, and one I hadn't given up on. But it never was a mass movement, and likely something that requires that much work never could be. But could in theory be practiced by anyone is a Torah based on the idea that Hillel's saying that the whole Torah is "de'alakh sani, lechaverkho lo sa'avid" was means seriously, or that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is a kelal gadol even after you leave the poster behind when you leave the 2nd grade classroom. A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit. If only I knew how to fight those elements of the zeigeist. But then, I am not trying to rebuild an already existing movement. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:00 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cellphones on Shabbos Message-ID: There is currently a thread on Areivim titled "more than one quarter of MO youth admit to using their phones on Shabbos", in which R' Danny Schoemann commented: > And I'm sure on Avoda we've discussed why and how using a phone > is Chillul Shabbos. If not, then maybe we should. I can very easily understand people for whom the temptation is so great that they succumb occasionally or even often. But I don't think that's what you're asking. Are you suggesting that these kids honestly don't realize that using a cell phone on Shabbos is assur? It seems to me: Even the most basic listing of the 39 Melachos is more complicated than is needed for this discussion. A discussion of Kavod Shabbos would also be counterproductive. Just ask them: "You don't turn lights on and off, do you? What the difference between that and everything that lights up on the screen?" Or ask them: "You wouldn't write something with pen and paper, would you? How is texting any different?" I concede that if we wanted to, we could get involved with all sorts of lomdish chakiras to answer those questions. But none will make a nafka mina regarding mutar/assur. They are all d'Oraisa/d'Rabanan distinctions, distracting us from the main point, which is that there is no way to use a cellphone on Shabbos except for legitimate medical needs. Kol hamosif gore'a. Comments? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Dec 18 14:37:11 2019 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:37:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel Message-ID: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah related): "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23)? Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information about this?? I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers.? Joseph Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 15:29:25 2019 From: rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> R. Micha, Thank you for including me on this rich and thoughtful post. Here are my thoughts, responding to some of your points in the order that you made them. - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? Did Chabad always emphasise the outreach which has become their trademark activity? I also wonder if the comparison can be made with the other movements that Rabbi Perl mentioned. Chabad, religious Zionism, Torah Im Derech Eretz and the yeshivah movement were all started by ideological leaders with a particular agenda. Was this so of Modern Orthodoxy? I guess what I'm questioning is whether Modern Orthodoxy is based on some kind of founding ideal and agenda which would be transformed if we were to go the path Rabbi Perl is suggesting. - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development in the Modern Orthodox community. It remains to be seen how much can be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer to is instructive. - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate central concept for the community. - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work you have given to the cause over decades. But doesn't a life commitment to Talmud Torah take work? Doesn't the Chabad shlichus demand self-sacrifice for others? I'm sure there are ways to respond to this, making chilukim, etc. but I am not as inclined to rule out the broad acceptance of an approach to middot, chesed, nosei b'ol, etc in our communities. As you know, I'm working on a conference to set a process in motion. If you don't try, you won't know! Best, Anthony Check out The Rise Together Project at and my website at Rabbi Anthony Knopf From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:58:07 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191222185807.GA18920@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:03pm CST, R Harry Maryles pointed us to his blog post "Of Hedgehogs and Ideology" at written in response to R Gil Perl's two-part essay on The Lerhaus. Responding to RHM's blog post: ... > That said, I do not believe that Modern Orthodoxy should make being an > or LaGoyim its passion no matter how noble it is. In my view it should be > defined the way it is traditionally defined as adhering to the ideology > of Torah U'Madda (TuM). And skipping ahead to his close for a minute: > Does that leave Modern Orthodoxy bereft of the hedgehog concept? > Perhaps. But in my view using a Mitzvah that does not really define what > we are really about in order to excite passion in us will in my view - > not work. I thought of this while responding to a very different conversation on Facebook. Someone advocated a more meiqil approach to halakhah on the grounds that the way O is done is scaring people away. I made two objections: C was only one failed attempt at this approach -- it just doesn't work. People just don't bother conforming to the lower standard. The other objection ended with an on-topic one-liner: You can't save something by redefining it. But it matters less here. We don't really need to save Mod-O as much as maximizing the shemiras Torah umitzvos of people who affiliate Mod-O. So, assuming I thought people would stay with that affiliaiton even as the movement redefined itself, I wouldn't object. But personally, the resulting movement wouldn't be for me. As I see it, halakhah has me prioritize those closer to me ahead of those further -- so immediate family, friends, aniyei iri, etc... and much further down are non-Jews. The triage doesn't fit making providing Kol Yaaqov to the community dialog our highest priority. The other problem is that I already bought into Mussar's adage that "my ruchnius means concern for my soul and your stomach". (Something the pre-War chassidishe rebbe who was the rav of the shtielb of my childhood also regularly said.) When it comes to others, gashmi aid is a higher priority than moral education. Again, a different triage. > Rabbi Perl rejects that. He references R' Norman Lamm who - as he points > out - literally wrote the book on that subject. Rabbi Lamm says that > TuM is not an ideology but rather pedagogy - a means of `arriving at > knowledge of the Creator through the avenues of science and the arts'. > In my view, that is a distinction without a difference. Aren't all > Orthodox Jewish ideologies ultimately about that? YU-style Mod-O is indeed Mod Yeshivish. The RIETS morning is no less a child of Volozhin than Lakewood is. But it's not true that "all Orthodox Jewish ideologies" are about "arriving at knowledge of the Creator". The Rambam would go for that. But chassidishe deveiqus is about having a relationship with the Borei, not learning about him. Knowing G-d, rather than knowing *about* G-d. More on this in a reply REGerstl's email, which became its own thread about the Rambam's notion of life's purpose. ... > Not only that, but TuM need not be studied only by > the elite anymore than Torah should. We each do the best we can with > the capabilities God gave to us to do it. Perhaps if you stick with *should*, but what's the motivator for learning mada for the majority of MO Jews? It's not overtly one of the 613, and the person isn't academic by nature, what's driving that time investment into secular studies. And where in the entire span of secular studies are they to choose among if they don't have a personal drive to pick up academic knowledge? On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:29:25PM +0000, R Anthony Knopf replied to my post, writing: > - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their > point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? ... Evolve is different than reinvent. Theseus's Paradox is a thought experiment about the ship Theseus sailed in stories recorded by Plutarch. During the course of his travels, say a sail tore and was replaced. Is it the same ship? Maybe on the next trip, he replaced the mast. Let's say over the course of his lifetime, every single plank and board in that ship was replaced. Theseus would have had continuous use of a ship, at all times it sure seemed like the same ship, and yet there is nothing in it now that was in the original. Is it the same ship? Identity evolves differently than sudden redefinition. But this is a bit off coarse. We're getting more caught up in whether, if the Mod-O infrastructure and membership would largely go for a leOr Goyim ideology, if they would still be Mod-O or not. Which gets more into the definition of a movement than either issues of right or wrong or of feasibility. I really wanted to focus on feasibility. I don't think MO membership would feel they're on the same ship if this were attempted. And so, it wouldn't work. > - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus > article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. > And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a > powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development > in the Modern Orthodox community... I think the question of ultimate purpose is a critical one, regardless of who we're talking about. I recently ran a workshop to help people write life- > be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of > "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer > to is instructive. But it manages to do so without leaving Torah uMada. It seems the Brisker tenor of Mod-Yeshivish a la RYBS is a less deeply held emotional issue. The feeling that we're staying on the same core idea is still there. After all, my youth included some very neo-Chassidus like moments at NCSY kumzeitzin. > - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding > an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the > difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than > "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of > Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent > academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate > central concept for the community. I do to, but... > - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a > popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work > you have given to the cause over decades... > But doesn't a life > commitment to Talmud Torah take work? But then, the learning that has become most popular is daf yomi. You get a feeling of acocmplishment. It's like the difference between a second hand and an hour hand on a watch. The second hand is doing 3,600 times the work, but you can see it working. An hour hand.... Working on middos is slow. There is no "I finished my first mesechta" or "500 blatt" or whatever. You work and you work, and eventually you notice the hour hand is pointing to a new hour when your wife says something about how you've been with the kids lately. And even that is months or years away from then you started. Well, now that I have split my dream into two, I can more easily articulate it. I hope. A central idea for AishDas is to plant the seed of "a vaad in every shul", paralleling the spread of daf Yomi. We had other ideas that we would "get to later", but really the only project we ever invested effort in was the spread of ve'adim. My dream was not that you would have a whole movement of people actively working on their middos. Halevai you could, but as you just noticed, I don't think the masses are ready for years and years of work before seeing signficant results. Character change is slow. Rather, I thought that the existence of those 5-6 people in the va'ad would have secondary effects on the rest of the shul. All the value we're supposed to be giving ehrlachkeit would stay in the discussion. We would be able to see a Yahadus in which how you act on line for the bus is no less a defining feature of who is "one of us" as is what a person eats. More recently, really since I was waiting for the editing of my sefer, I started trying to put another buzzword out there -- Other-Focused Orthodoxy. Because there has to be exploration on how to get to an ehrlachkeit-centered rather than frummkeit-centered observance through ways other than hoping the kind of people AishDas was reaching to would have cultural influence on the kelal. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:19:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] The Rambam's Hedgehog (was: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191222181924.GA22988@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:32pm GMT, R Eliyahu Gerstl responded to RGP's thesis: > I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's > concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct > to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be > considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. > The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch > davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: > Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud... I don't see two points here in the Rambam, Yesodei haTorah 2:1-3 and Hil' Talmud Torah 1:11. In YhT the Rambam defines ahavas H' and yir'as Hashem in terms of a thirst to know about G-d. Because, as I wrote above (in response to RHM), it seems to me the Rambam defines his "deveiqus" (as REG puts it) as an intellectual unity. "What is the way to love Him and feel yir'ah for Him? When a person contemplates His Actions and His Creations, which are nifla'im gedolim, and sees His Chokhmah in it... immediately he love, praises, glorifies, and mis'aveh ta'avah gedolah ot know the sheim hagadol..." First, in TT 1:11, the shelish betalmud is halachic dialectic -- "... until he knows what are the iqar of the midos [shehaTorah nideshes bahen] and how to extract what is assur and what is mussar, andthe like, from what he studied from the oral tradition." Not aggadita. We do find aggadita included with Mada in YhT 2:2 as the means to ahavas veyir'as Hashem. Different mitzvos than TT. To skip to the end of this post too because I want to respond to it together with the above: > This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing > on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of > HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by > a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models > in our history. What neo-Chassidus shows is that the Mod-O Jew is looking for some experiential / emotional Judaism. But in any case, I don't think the Rambam's parallel to deveiqus is a major element in today's hashkafic discourse. Too cerebral, too much aimed only at the academic. I also amnot sure the Rambam's hashkafah was particularly popular among Chazal either. > Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 To me, the core thought of this last pereq of the Moreh is his ranking of the 4 types of perfection the gemara expects of a navi -- wealth, health, intellect and middos. The Rambam flips the last two, not only in the order he presents them, but the Rambam is clear that these are asvending types of perfection. That only intellectual perfection is a permanent refinement of the most core part of the self: The fourth kind of perfection is the true perfection of man: the possession of the highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards God. With this perfection man has obtained his final object; it gives him true human perfection; it remains to him alone; it gives him immortality, and on its account he is called man. Examine the first three kinds of perfection, you will find that, if you possess them, they are not your property, but the property of others; according to the ordinary view, however, they belong to you and to others. But the last kind of perfection is exclusively yours... And as REG also quoted: > ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by > him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the > knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the > manner in which it influences His creatures in their production > and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will > then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, > and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have > explained this many times in this treatise. Really, more so than middos and character? And so I thought for decades, until I saw RYBS said differently. Not that I understand how RYBS reaches that concludion, given how much of pereq 54. And the opening chapters of the Moreh about how the eitz hadaas messed up the pursuit of knowledge by introducing precondition steps; the definition of nevu'ah as an overflow from the Active Intellect; 3:18 where he defines a homo sapien's personhood in proportion to their knowledge, so that a person receives hashgachah peratis is proportional to yedi'ah; and 3:51 and the castle garden metaphor at the start of the Moreh's closing section. Really, it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the Moreh Nevuchim. BUT RYBS understands this section of 3:54 as saying that even yedi'ah isn't the end of the human endevor, chesed, mishpat and tzedaqah are. Looking at pereq 53: This chapter encomapsses the meanig of three sheimos that needs explaining: chesed, mitzpat, and tzedaqah. And so on, until: We have shown that "chesed" refers to gemilus chesed gamur, and "tzedaqah" to any good that one does because of the loftiness of middos, to thereby complete one's nefesh, and "mishpat" sometimes has an outcome of neqamah, and sometimes tov. We already epxlained how distant attributes are [from theology][ that any attribute one attributes to the Deity yisbarakh in the books of nevi'im is an attribute of action. ... And then the Rambam returns to this idea later in 54. The navi does not content himself with explaining that the knowledge of G-d is the highest kind of perfection; for if this only had been his intention, he would have said, ... He says, however, that man can only gain praise for himself in the knowledge of G-d and in the knowledge of His "Ways and Attributes", which are His actions, as we have shown (MN 1:54) in expounding the passage, "har'eini na es Kevodekha" (Exod. 38:13). We are thus told in this passage that the Divine acts which ought to be known, and ought to serve as a guide for our actions, are, ch??es, mishpat, antzedaqah." Another very important lesson is taught by the additional phrase, "ba'aretz." It implies a fundamental principle of the Torah; it rejects the theory of those who boldly assert that God's providence does not extend below the sphere of the moon, and that the earth with its contents is abandoned, that "azav H' es ha'aretz" (Yechezqeil 8:12). It teaches, as has been taught by the greatest of all wise men in the words, "Lashem ha'atez umloa'ah" (Shemos 9:29), that His providence extends to the earth in accordance with its nature, in the same manner as it controls the heavens in accordance with their nature.... And so on. So far, all about knowledge of HQBH. Even chesed, tzedaqah umishpat are about knowing *Hashem's* HZu"M, and that there is hashgachah in this world. And then, this: The navi thus, in conclusion, says, "ki ba'eileh chafatzti, ne'um H'" i.e., My object [in saying this] is that you shall practise HZu"M the earth. In a similar manner we have shown (MN 1:54) that the object of the enumeration of H's 13 Middos is the lesson that we should acquire similar attributes and act accordingly. The object of the above passage is therefore to declare, that the perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired -- as far as this is possible for man -- the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek HZu"M, and thus to imitate the ways of G-d. We have explained this many times in this treatise. So, the purpose of all this knowledge is to know what to emulate. And yet the perfection of the knowledge is a greater perfection than the perfection of the middos one acquired by emulation? What am I missing? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 16:11:11 2019 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: In Avodah v37n97, one of R'Micha's last thoughts was > A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit < which brings us back to TiDE and RSRH's Mensch Yisrael. --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 03:18:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > What percentage of people would like to know how they are > really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self- > image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not > telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them > out there? Personally, I would love to know about the things I do that are viewed negatively by others. If I had that information, I could either correct my actions, or I could explain myself to them and thereby improve their views of me, and possibly even improve how *they* act. However, as much as I would like that, I generally do not tell others when I view them negatively. To do so successfully requires a great deal of tact and sensitivity, and experience has shown me that I usually fail when I attempt these things. I believe that this approach is supported by the halachos of Tochacha: attempt to correct people, but first, do no harm. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 24 23:14:21 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 07:14:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv Message-ID: From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, it should be done by example. My response: Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner consistent with the will of HKB"H. If the result is we are mekarev them (as imho it would be if we act this way), great BUT that is not our ultimate goal (much as we don't do mitzvot for reward, it's an ancillary benefit) Your thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Dec 26 09:42:22 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=96_A_Torah_View?= Message-ID: https://rabbiefremgoldberg.org/audio_listing/celebrating-birthdays-a-torah-view/ I think that many will be surprised by this talk. There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 26 20:05:48 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 04:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=E2=80=93_A_Torah_View?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F184740-02E5-426B-85CE-342B8AA10C63@sibson.com> There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL ______________________________________________ I gave a shiur on this a number of years back. My main take away was it should be used as an opportunity for reflection, Not A celebration per se Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 20:07:55 2019 From: jmeisner at gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:07:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel In-Reply-To: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:36 AM Joseph Kaplan via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel > in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in > Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah > related): > > "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah > scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival > in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who > were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, > etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23< > https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/babylonian_exile/>)? > > Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: > > ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any > assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely > the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during > this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the > assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information > about this?? > > I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about > is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows > what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article > and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical > sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher > butchers.? > I assume that the author was taking creative license based on Sanhedrin 38a, which states more generally that the galus of Tzidkiyahu was pushed earlier so that they would arrive while the charash and the masger of the galus of Yechonya were still alive. To address RDYL's question, what would such help have looked like? A brigade of soldiers (or elephants)? A steady stream of volunteers? Massive infusions of gold that could be used to buy modern weaponry on the black market? Considering the distance between Bavel and Eretz Yisroel and the difficulty in traveling between one and the other, this question may have a very modern bias to it. I was going to suggest that the king of Persia may have further objected to any of this assistance leaving his territory, but, according to Wikipedia, the Parthians did not conquer Bavel until shortly after the neis of Chanukah, prior to which it was until the control of the... Seleucids. Hence, the Seleucid governor of Bavel certainly would not have approved of any aid being provided to the rebellion in Eretz Yisroel. Did the decrees against Torah in Eretz Yisroel also apply in Bavel? I've never heard this discussed. More generally, it seems that we (or maybe just I?) know little about the Jews of Bavel during the time period in question. Ezra (and perhaps Zerubavel) left there a couple of centuries earlier, while Nechemya left from and Mordechai and Esther were in Paras. There are a handful of tanna'im called Bavli'im, but the center of the chachmei hamishnah was clearly in Eretz Yisroel. While it's conceivable (although perhaps not likely) that there were direct lines from the yeshivos of the charash and masgeir to the yeshivos of Rav and Shmuel, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was strong religious leadership the whole time that would have coordinated such an assistance drive for the Chashmona'im. Just a few thoughts. A lichtige Chanukah (What's the origin of this phrase, by the way?), Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Mon Dec 30 05:19:42 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Anti-Semitism is Out of Control Message-ID: <7172577B-31F7-4CA0-B25C-35C37FB57BFF@cox.net> It is imperative to address the rampant anti-Semitism which is on the rise exponentially. Please watch the following (under) 10 minute television interview of former NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind. It is time we realize that the laws of the ?rodef? definitely apply to the anti-Semite. https://www.foxnews.com/media/dov-hikind-hanukkah-stabbing-new-york-anti-semitism From micha at aishdas.org Tue Dec 31 22:03:37 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 01:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro Message-ID: <588c3f15-5b25-452b-9857-ca858cb7cd12@Michas-iPad> CC: RRYE So, RRYEisenman's recent Short Vort has been making the rounds. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1815470 (Carried as OpEd pieces in both The Yeshiva World and Matzav.) RRYW writes: Op-Ed: Important "Checklist" Of Things To "Bring" To The Siyum Hashas December 31, 2019 11:00 am As the horrifying events of Monsey are still so fresh in our minds, coupled with other over manifestations of anti-Semitism in the New York area, it behooves all of us to rethink our preparations for the great convocation of Jews on Wednesday in Met-Life Stadium. ... Keep in mind that this event is a momentous one for Kavod HaTorah and for Kavod Shomayim. The last-minute items to remember to pack: 1. SMILE a. Most important: remember to bring your best smile with you. ... e. Keep in mind that all of the workers, security people, police, maintenance people, cleaning staff, parking attendants and anyone else working are human beings. f. These are the same human beings who our Sages say about them, "Beloved are human beings, for they was created in the image of Hashem...as it says, "For in the image of G-d, He made human beings". (Genesis 9:6) g. You must smile when you see someone created in the image of Hashem. h. Can you think of any other greater irony than for 100,000 plus people who are the children of Hashem who have come to give honor to Hashem, not recognizing those who are also created in His image? i. Smile, smile and smile more at each and every person you meet. 2. Happy New Year! a. These people are all working on what is to them one of the most important and universally observed holidays: the day which is called New Years Day. b. It is totally irrelevant that these people are also getting paid ... 3. Thank You a. This might be the most important item to remember to bring. ... Most importantly, we have the opportunity to bring Kavod and honor to His Holy name. Note his repeated appeal to bein adam laMaqom (BALM) terms. Smile at a person because he is a tzelem E-lokim and it is part of giving honor to HQBH. Or qiddush hasheim / avoid chillul hasheim. And this theme came up more in discussions of this OpEd on social media. But I have an open question about this strategy that I have been chewing on for years. Maybe people here have opinions. We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom. And so, in the short run, it makes sense to sell bein adam lachaveiro by emphasizing the BALM aspects of it -- respecting Hashem by respecting a tzelem E-lokim, and chillul vs. qiddush hasheim. But... I am not sure if I like the message or not. Isn't the road out of this whole mess a realization that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is the more central principle of the Torah? If we reinforce the idea that it is only "really" against the Torah is it interferes with my relating to the Creator, will we be in the same boat a generation from now? Are we getting people to do the right thing, and atttidue will follow any behaviors we can encourage? Can we create the right habit this way? Or are we reinvorcing the imbalanced attitude, and we'll never get out of this "frumkeit" hole? I have picked up the conundrum repeatedly since starting on my book. I don't have an answer, though. Your thoughts? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and http://www.aishdas.org/asp this was a great wonder. But it is much more Author: Widen Your Tent wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "mensch"! -Rav Yisrael Salanter From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 1 18:49:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Av Message-ID: A thought for Tu B'AV: R'SBG (taanit 30b) designates the two most yamim tovim (holidays) Yom Kippur and Tu B'av. While the gemara lists a number of events which occurred on Tu B'av, I've always been partial to Yom Tvar Hamaagal (the day they stopped cutting wood for the wood pile). Initially I favored it as a paradigm for priority juggling (going back to Torah learning when your job is done), but it occurred to me that the pairing with Yom Kippur is exquisite - Yom Kippur being representative of the short spurt/high profile avodat Hashem while Tu B'av represents the ongoing low profile diligent avodah of daily life. We need both! GCT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Oct 2 09:44:52 2019 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:44:52 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Oct 1, 2019 05:57:56 pm Message-ID: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a few weeks. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 2 15:57:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20191002225720.GA3766@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 04:44:52PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: >> In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a > few weeks. I know Rashi says it's like "beshegam" with a segol, and then explains it as "bishvil shegam". And maybe the Torah contracts "asher" only when sandwitched after a be-? It would explain the uniqueness. But I find Ibn Ezra's comparison to the shin in shekhakha (in "ashrei ha'am shekakha lo") more compelling, and the Ramban did too. The Netziv has the shin as part of the shoresh, as in "mishagmaso". Etc... As RJFS writes, it's "one *possible* exception". GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder] http://www.aishdas.org/asp isn't complete with being careful in the laws Author: Widen Your Tent of Passover. One must also be very careful in - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF the laws of business. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 2 22:13:18 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut Message-ID: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. [PS: I'm not sure whether this belongs on Avodah or Areivim] -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 3 11:37:39 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 > We know that Pas Paltur, "Baker's Bread," is actually permitted year > round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all > one's bread products are strictly Pas Yisrael. But what do these terms > mean? And why should we be stringent with this, of all halachos, and > why specifically now? And what about Shabbos? > Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter > of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily > available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and > the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot > purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress > that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. See the above URL for more. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 3 16:50:05 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003235005.GA11274@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 06:37:39PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 >> Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter >> of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily >> available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and >> the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot >> purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress >> that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. So that while the Yerushalmi's case of eating chullin betaharah is more bein adam lamaqom... When it comes to pas palter during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah, are saying that for AYT we make a point of supporting other Jews, even if our bread may be a little pricier or not as tasty as the rest of the year. More a bein adam lachaveiro practice. GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger Mussar is like oil put in water, http://www.aishdas.org/asp eventually it will rise to the top. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yisrael Salanter - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:27:05 2019 From: simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:27:05 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut In-Reply-To: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> References: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:54 PM Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: > https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 > > It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The > author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and > the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. Powerful indeed, one of the high points of the RH liturgy. By the way, the London S&P mahzor and the Keter Shem Tov, both attribute it to R. Yehuda Halevi. From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:47:59 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice Message-ID: Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the current practice? GT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:51:42 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes Message-ID: Excerpt Recent correspondence: > Sholom u'vracha, > I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It > strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly > fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two > different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av > practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other > seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts. > How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz" [ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb] I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather 1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion) GT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 07:23:52 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population Message-ID: <20191010142352.GA31063@aishdas.org> One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers. This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as "clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os. Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole 6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the time the Kenaanim get to the scene.... See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel or numberous other links. They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 10 09:48:15 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 11:48:15 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these > activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? > A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom > Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical > instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies. Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments if they break while playing. It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another to continue these peripheral extensions. > On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived > the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen > Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason > presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing > and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning > a musical instrument. And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah. Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e. that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording. How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres, or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres. That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites "acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah would be equally exempt. And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments themselves. The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the first place. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: >That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod >haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites >"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a >waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah >would be equally exempt. ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3 and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY. For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 12:58:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted... ... > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the 9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians. Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3. There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to be about until at least 400 years after Chazal. In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah. Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique nighttime reading. Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat. It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside from it being minag, not din, anyway.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:59:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: > > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. > >But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of >minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is D'Rabbonon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 13:18:53 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > D'Rabbonon. Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level because of the act, not because of the date. Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 13:41:35 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22.7A.01711.4D99F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:18 PM 10/10/2019, you wrote: >Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? If I were in EY on SA I would not dance. (Truth of the matter is that I do not dance on ST anymore, given my broken Patella.) It does seem strange to me to have Yizkor and dancing on the same day. If you read Ya'ari's sefer you will see that the ARI danced on Motzoei SA and not on SA itself. He did not dance on SA itself in EY. However, in a sefer that describes him dancing it says mistakenly that he danced and encouraged others to do the same on the night of SA. This is not true. I note that in EY there are big celebrations on the night after SA with music to accompany the dancing with the Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Oct 10 14:18:40 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> On 10/10/19 4:47 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice > changed from allowing the body to decay and then ?burying? the bones, to > the current practice? > GT As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for farming became less important. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 06:21:52 2019 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > > D'Rabbonon. > > Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? > I believe that doing so would be a great Tikkun. The heter "lichvod haTorah" doesn't convince me at all: all the dancing and singing and drinking and shmoozing *while the Torah is being read* seem to me the opposite of kavod. Ditto the practice of calling up everybody in the shul, which is not even a halachic requirement. I only wish I could find a minyan that agrees with me on these points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Oct 13 06:03:10 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> Message-ID: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Sun Oct 13 07:21:13 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] suffering/inui Message-ID: I'm looking into whether increased inui/suffering is ever something to seek (or at least not avoid). Besides yom kippur and other fasts are there other possible applications? I've heard some say childbirth -any sources? Any others? Gt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandels at ou.org Sun Oct 13 07:01:43 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail>, Message-ID: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. --- Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On October 13, 2019 at 9:03:19 AM EDT, Prof. L. Levine wrote: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. Legal Disclaimer The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:38:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions: 1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods? Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum? 2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter? Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to be a staple also? Why be lenient? I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur. << Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of thought. >> If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as a snack, and not as a meal. In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas Palter. So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to consider PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:38:38 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mimetics Message-ID: https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/ > "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted > great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on > Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of > legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt > an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this > persuasion conduct herself?" Optimal? Mimetics be darned! Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:35:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? Message-ID: Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community norms...)] Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From chidekel at mail.gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:50:54 2019 From: chidekel at mail.gmail.com (Meir Shinnar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret Message-ID: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Seth Mandel > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers > (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent > of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were > known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. Meir Shinnar From mandels at ou.org Wed Oct 16 14:15:42 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:15:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it. From: Meir Shinnar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM > It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik > ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just > some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret > (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, > even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures > I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l > said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken, and he was much more than a "fellow traveler." But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases lahalokho. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel Rabbinic Coordinator The Orthodox Union Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels at ou.org From hanktopas at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:42:41 2019 From: hanktopas at gmail.com (Henry Topas) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: Mo'ed Tov: I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this structure has been instituted? Is it different in nuschaot other than Ashkenaz? Shkoyech and a Git'n Kvitel, HT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:00:21 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:15:42PM +0000, Mandel, R/Dr Seth responded to R/Dr Meir Shinar: >> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l >> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. > As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great > talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that > he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that > are against established halokho... Not my experience at all. He does work hard to find justifications for things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, not the practices of Chassidim. On the subject of Litvaks who considered the AhS one of their own: Add the early RMF, who wrote in vol 1 that the AhS was poseiq acharon, only to switch to saying so of the MB in a later volume. (My guess is that when R Moshe saw that lemaaseh the MB was being followed over the Ahs in nearly all quarters, he stopped holding out.) Also, R' Dovid Lifshitz and R' S Yaakov Weinberg both told their talmidim to turn to the AhS. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but by rubbing one stone against another, Author: Widen Your Tent sparks of fire emerge. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:14:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> Message-ID: <20191017211443.GA16981@aishdas.org> On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 02:01:43PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote: > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers ... True. But the Minchas Elazar's validation of the practice is so cute I just need to share it. (It's been a few years since the last time.) The gemara writes (47a): meisiv ha yasvei, berukhi lo mevorkhei Rav Huna bar Bizna and all the gedolei hador "sitting they would sit, but the berakhah they didn't bless". The Muncaczer wonder about the double language. Why wouldn't the gemara just say "ha yasvei velo mvorkhei"? So he suggests that the gemara is to be read as bitmiya: "Do you think sitting they would sit when the berakhah they couldn't bless?!" As I said, cute. Totally unconvincing to this Litvak, but I admit the creativity. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From zev at sero.name Fri Oct 18 07:41:57 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:41:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c715c42-4f5f-8013-d89a-fd77762fcb25@sero.name> On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Davening isn't structured with kaddish opportunities in mind. On the contrary, kaddish is an afterthought, tacked on to the bits before and after the main event. Since on Yom Kippur we (at least in principle) go right through the day there's no need to conclude each tefilla with ketoret and/or Aleinu, and thus no opportunity for kaddish afterwards. I davened at a Sefaradi minyan, where things were different. First, after musaf there was Ketoret/Ledavid Mizmor/Ledavid Ori, followed by a kaddish (though surprisingly it was not Al Yisrael), and then Alenu followed by chatzi kaddish. After mincha there was a perek of tehilim and alenu, each followed by kaddish. There was nothing after ne'ilah, but there was a kaddish after each of the sifrei torah in the morning. In addition, as is my custom, I learned Kelim 24 and Mikvaot 7 before musaf and again before mincha and concluded them after those tefilot, with Kadish Al Yisrael. I seem to recall there was also something learned during the 40-minute break before mincha, followed by kaddish Al Yisrael, but my memory is a bit hazy. (I do remember that mishnayot Yoma was learned after maariv, followed by kaddish.) If you had been at an L shul, your kaddish opportunities would have been as follows: After musaf there would be tehillim and mishnayos; after mincha there would be Ledavid Ori; and after neilah there would be Ketores, tehillim, and mishnayos; each followed by kaddish, plus one on the first sefer torah in the morning. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mandels at ou.org Fri Oct 18 08:13:10 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> , <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> Message-ID: From: Micha Berger Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:00 PM > Not my experience at all. [AhS] does work hard to find justifications for > things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me > tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos > do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, > not the practices of Chassidim. He works hard to find bases for minhogim of many groups. His defense of the chasidic customs that violate halokho, however seems to notable, because he does it for all of the three or four cases that are directly against all the poskim. I am not enough of an expert to evaluate whether it is egregiously different than his defense of other minhogim. But it is fairly well known that he became a great admirer of the Tzemach Tzedek after he first met him. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel From micha at aishdas.org Sat Oct 19 18:57:01 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Barukh Dayan haEmes - Rabbanit Shoshana Boublil In-Reply-To: <10375da9-e283-47e9-ae6d-25316c491142@Michas-iPad> Message-ID: <39cbf7cd-2d3e-48d7-b363-268c0ac5baf2@Michas-iPad> I regret having to share the news that Rt Shoshana Boublil has lost her battle against cancer. The levayah will be tomorrow at 12:30 Bet Olamin haYarqon, Shaar Ge?ulah Her family will be sitting shiv?ah at her home. The address was sent to Areivim. I would say more, but I have no idea how the laws of hespedim on ch?m apply to this situation. -Micha > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isaac at balb.in Sun Oct 20 00:33:15 2019 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini At erect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7F7B49-E256-4064-B391-46540CA77860@balb.in> From: "Mandel, Seth" One must also bear in mind that apart from his friendship and esteem for the Tzemach Tzedek (Agav, The Beis HaLevi also sent Shaylos to the Tzemach Tzedek) one needs to remember that he was Rav in a town populated by Lubavitcher Chassidim as I noted here https://pitputim.me/2016/11/14/what-should-we-be-doing-during-the-lifting-of-the-torah-part-4/ In respect of Hagba and how that is done. _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik Z"L From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:28:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Time for dinner on Shmini Atzeres Message-ID: Regarding the late afternoon of Hoshana Raba in Chutz Laaretz, Mishneh Brura 668:7 writes: <<< The Acharonim conclude that one should not eat in the evening until dark. However, b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi, he should *not* say Leshev Basukkah, because he already accepted Shmini Atzeres in davening and in kiddush. >>> >From this, it seems that the MB has no problem beginning Shmini Atzeres early, with davening and/or kiddush, his only problem is with eating. He explains this more deeply in Shaar Hatziuy 668:12: <<< The reason is because it is still part of the seventh day, and he is obligated by the Torah to eat in the sukkah. How can he eat without daying Leshev Basukkah?!?!? But to say Leshev Basukkah is not possible, because it would be a contradiction, because in davening and kiddush, he declared it to be Shmini Atzeres! >>> Writing in chutz laaretz, the MB clearly presumes that this person *is* in the sukkah, and the only problem is the bracha. I don't understand why the bracha is such a big deal. What's wrong with simply omitting the Layshev? Let's phrase it this way: This person has two choices: (A) At this time, during which there might be a Torah obligation to eat in the sukkah, he can eat in the sukkah without the Birkas Hamitzvah. (B) Because of the uncertainty about saying the bracha, he should avoid eating in the sukkah entirely, until this uncertain time ends. - It seems clear to me that it would be far preferable to choose A and thereby possibly do a mitzvah d'Oraisa albeit without a bracha, rather than just sit around squandering that opportunity. Why am I wrong? What did I miss? (By the way, please note the MB's words "b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi". I am curious what he would advise for a person who said Kiddush and washed Netilas Yadayim, but did NOT say Hamotzi yet. Shaar Hatziyun 668:13 (near end) is lenient for the last quarter-hour before dark, but what if it were earlier? Would he really tell a person not to eat yet?) None of the above would apply in Eretz Yisrael, where there are real problems with eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, even without a bracha. Similarly, in Eretz Yisrael it's not possible to eat in the house until dark, because of the safek chiyuv d'Oraisa. But my next question, I think, is equally valid in Israel and Chu"l: Suppose it is raining on Hoshana Raba afternoon - wither in Eretz Yisrael or not - and the rain is expected to continue into the night, and he is therefore planning to eat indoors. Is there any reason to delay dinner? The MB has no problem with davening or kiddush early, and there is no question of saying Leshev. So why not? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Oct 22 18:11:18 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:11:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon Message-ID: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, then how was it he ate of the tree? Does that mean that Chava already had the yetzer hara? And if not, why would she even have been tempted. With only the yezter tov, they would be like the malachim. [Email #2. -micha] In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash able to speak and cause them to sin? From arie.folger at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:42:01 2019 From: arie.folger at gmail.com (Arie Folger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Reb Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Reb Zev Zero gave an important part of the answer. But I want to take this opportunity to express my astonishment that not more people are realizing that the lack of 'Alenu after Mussaf isn't a minhag of Yom Kippur, but a result of the original minhag, still practiced in Yekki communities, that Alenu is not recited between two tefillot that follow immediately after one another. I.e. when saying Ma'ariv immediately after Minchah, no 'Alenu is said after Minchah, or, when Minchah is said immediately after Mussaf. In many shuls, there is no break between Mussaf and Minchah (actually, no break on Yom Kippur, period), which is why there is no 'Alenu. Since most shuls, however, introduced a break between Mussaf and Minchah, it stands to reason that we should say 'Alenu and Kaddish. -- Arie Folger, Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 23 08:13:37 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] blessings Message-ID: Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 13:10:06 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] blessings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191023201006.GB20617@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:13:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should > be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because > brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) I think the former, looking at the phrase in context in the gemara. R Elazar quoting R Chanina continues (Megillah 15a): ... For two gedolei hador were blessed by two hedyotos and they were fulfilled. And they [the gedolim] are David (Shemu'el 2 24:23) and Daniyel (6:17).... And then he continues about qelelas hedyot, with Avimelekh cursing Sarah (Bereishis 20:16) causing Yitzchaq's blindness as an example. Aside from the indications from the examples... Why would R' Chanina advise us to increase the chance of a qelalah working by believing in it? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is a stage and we are the actors, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but only some of us have the script. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Menachem Nissel - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 14:43:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of the Universe. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:32:03 +0000 Subject: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis ... GOOD MORNING! How old is the universe? 13.8 billion years or 6,000 years? Did Creation take place in 6 twenty-four hour days or were they longer? This week I bring to you a fascinating approach from a fascinating man. Daniel Friedmann holds a master's degree in engineering physics and is the Chairman of Carbon Engineering, a company dedicated to removing co2 from the air to solve climate change and ex-CEO of the Canadian company that made the robotic arm for the Space Shuttle. He lays out his research in his book, The Biblical Clock. Why did Mr. Friedmann start investigating the connection between the Torah's story of Creation and the scientific timeline? The Talmudic sages teach that 'God looked into the Torah and created the world" (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. 1:2). Mr. Friedmann concluded that if the Torah is the blueprint of the universe, then the Torah account of creation and scientific account of the age of the Universe must coincide. About 700 years ago Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the assertion that time -- while God was creating and man had not yet appeared -- was different than time as we keep today. Mr. Friedmann, based on this insight and on classical sources, aligns the dates of key events as described in Genesis 1 and 2 with those derived from scientific theory and observation. How? One Creation Day = 1,000 x 365.25 x 7,000 = 2.56 billion years. The factor of 1,000 comes directly from Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day" -- where we learn that one day for God equals 1,000 human years. The 365.25 number is simply a conversion from days to years (being the number of days in a year). The factor of 7,000 relates to cosmic cycles. The Talmud, (Sanhedrin 97a), which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." Various Kabbalistic works, dating back to the first century, write that there are 7 cosmic cycles of 7000 thousand years (analogous to the sabbatical cycles). The factor of 7000 relates to these cycles. (This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs). The Torah provides a detailed timeline of the creation events. Genesis describes the timeline for the formation of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Each event is provided in sequence with a time of occurrence. For example, we are told that the sun was completed at the end of Day 4, that life first appeared in the oceans at the beginning of Day 5, and that the animals were made in Day 6; careful examination of the Genesis text reveals about 20 separate creation events. Much of the information in Genesis is further detailed in the Oral Torah to reveal a more accurate timeline of events. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b) provides the detailed account of Day 6, hour-by-hour: "The day consisted of twelve hours. In the first hour, his (Adam's) dust was gathered... in the fifth, he arose and stood on his feet; in the sixth, he gave (the animals) their names; in the seventh, Eve became his mate; in the eighth, they ascended to bed as two and descended as four (i.e., Cain and Abel are born); in the ninth he entered the Garden of Eden and he was commanded not to eat of the tree; in the tenth, he sinned; in the eleventh, he was tried; and in the twelfth, he was expelled (from Eden)..." Mr. Friedmann then calculates that the Age of the universe from the start of Day 1 to today: exactly 13.74 billion years, coinciding with the latest scientific measurements. Beginnings of life: from first thing on Day 5 ("let the waters teem" Gen. 1:20) to today corresponds to 3.52 billion years which is in agreement with the scientific time for "universal ancestor" -- the single cell. Plant life (on the land): from hours 6 to 9 on Day 6 until today ("God planted a garden... and there He placed the man... And God caused to sprout from the ground every tree" Gen. 2:8, 9) corresponds to 426-106 million years ago which he reports is in agreement with the fossil record. The Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science.... ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Daniel Friedmann Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:38 PM Micha Berger wrote: > Isn't this the a minor variant on what R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote in 1979 in > "The Age of the Universe - A Torah-True Perspective"? > http://nleresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/the_age_of_the_universe___a_torah_true_perspective.pdf > If so, you might want to see R' Ari Kahn's obections in Explorations, which > he excerpted on the Avodah email list at > http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n080.html Hi thank you, no this is different from Rabbi Kaplan's work as detailed in my book. RK had the cycles of 7000 occurring before day 1 this was not in accordance with the Arizal. In the approach here the 7000 is for each creation day based on commentary on Etz Hayim This provides an age of the universe of 13.74 vs 15 billion and allows calculation of another 17 events All but one match scientific measurement. Sorry for the short answer .... From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:12:17 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:12:17 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Which gate did they use to go into the azara when bringing the korban pesach? Message-ID: It is clear that they used shaar nikanor but the question is did they use the other gates of the azara as well? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:31:49 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 06:31:49 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Oct 25 07:14:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191025141420.GE25728@aishdas.org> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 06:31:49AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get > 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly > changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up > with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? This is a problem with concordism in general. Look at how well the Rambam held up. However, if you believe there is only one emes, and aren't ready to simply dismiss or ignore whatever evidence we do have, then you would feel there is a duty to keep on finding convergence. Not in the tenor of "science finally caught up to Torah", more "see, the two needn't contradict; you don't have to choose." :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but when a prophet dies, his influence is just Author: Widen Your Tent beginning. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Soren Kierkegaard From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Oct 27 05:14:25 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Noach Message-ID: <562504E5-2AC5-4CBA-BD30-59C27C348441@cox.net> In Parshat Noach, Ch.8 verse 2, the word "vayikalei" (and the rain from heaven was restrained) appears only twice in the entire Bible. The only other place it occurs is in Parshat Vayakhel where Moses commanded the Jews to contribute materials for the building of the Tabernacle. The Jews responded with such energy that Moses soon had more than enough material and he had to tell the people to cease. (We should be so lucky today). The people dutifully complied, as the Torah records: "And the people were restrained from bringing" (Exodus 36:6). The Baal HaTurim who pointed out the rare occurrence of this word says that this connection reminds us that when God rains down His blessings, people increase their level of tzedakah. But when the rain stops, so does their generosity. (Actually, I would have thought it was just the opposite because if God did not rain down his blessings, people would be afraid that they've sinned and therefore would increase their level of tzedakah. But as soon as the blessings rain down, people in their prosperity forget others and are less generous. I would tend to think it really depends upon the person, etc.). From ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:06:53 2019 From: ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> References: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2019, 5:43 PM, at 5:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote: >The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had >when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of >the Universe. https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/aryeh-kaplan-on-evolution-a-missing-chapter-of-the-handbook-of-jewish-thought/ I don't like the Schroederian take on Evolution, but, regardless, a major discovery. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:46:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in certain cases). So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:33:32 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon In-Reply-To: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> References: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191031023332.GE14724@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 09:11:18PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil > inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, > then how was it he ate of the tree? ... The Rambam (MN 1:1-2) says that until the sin, Adam and Chavah's challenge was to decide between truth and falsehood. And the snake provided the falsehood that they fell for. Potentially along the same lines, R' Dessler says that until the sin the yeitzer hara was externalized in the form of the nachash. The sin caused the internalization of desire. Which also depends on someone who only wants to do Hashem's Will falling for the arguments of the externalized yh"r. > In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also > called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, > because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the > question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply > the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash > able to speak and cause them to sin? First, I think the "ruach memalela" of Unqelus that Rashi is referring to is not the power to speak, but having an internal monolog. The ability to "hear" one's thoughts is a critical part of assessing what one's thinking and a necessary element of free will. Which would explain why Koko the gorilla's (et al) skill at learning sign language doesn't pose a question about kinds of soul. (And could be why they didn't *invent* language.) Pre-fruit, this world and the olam ha'emes hadn't yet split into two. (R Kook) So Adam could have encountered the snake in a non-physical way. The nachash might not even be the physical snake, but the satan who was riding him (is that the Zohar or only Ben Sira?), or the angel in charge of snakes. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:04:56 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:04:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 15 Av In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031020456.GA14724@aishdas.org> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 02:09:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: >> And further ... if a woman converts for marriage, and the >> marriage is assur, is there any way to say the conversion was >> valid? I mean, there are pretty loose definitions of qabbalas >> ol malkhus Shamayim compared to what a beis din would hope for. >> But converting for the sake of being able to do an issur??? > These are great questions, and their answers are far above my level. But > I'll say this: It is not at all unusual to come across a gemara that says, > "You're not allowed to convert in this manner, but if you did, then it is > valid." And some of those leniencies raise the exact question that RMB is > asking, because if the gerus was done is a forbidden manner, where is the > qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim? There is a significant break in the parallel you're proposing. Someone whose geirus was done wrongly but kosher bedi'eved was converted by a beis din who did something wrong. It doesn't necessarily disprove the geir's qabbalas ol mitzvos, because (1) they're relying on people who are comparatively subject matter experts, not acting on their own; and (2) they aren't necessarily converting for the sake of being able to sin. And if (3) it's about wondering about the convert's QOM vs ulterier motive (like the Rambam's discussion of Shimshon's and Shelomo haMelekh's wifes), the convert him/herself isn't wondering. Here, you have someone converting just for the purpose of sinning. It isn't about the conversion, where the ball or sin is in the beis din't court. (It doesn't involve any questions of the kashrus of the geirus being valid by circular or paradoxical reasoning -- the sin doesn't have the self-reference nature of being in the conversion itself.) > By the way, where did they find a Beis Din in Moav? Yes, that was a > rhetorical question, intended to point out that if Rus and Orpah did have a > valid conversion at the beginning of the story, the procedure must have > involved some pretty serious leniencies. Well, if two famous people went to where there was food, out of the whole Jewish and Israelish peoples, there must have been at least 3 others. That doesn't surprise me. > Hmmm... Actually, if Rus converted at the end of the story, that is pretty > problematic too, because even if there isn't any "conversion for the sake > of marriage" to worry about, the Beis Din is even more surprising. (Someone > *might* make a case that two brothers could be a Beis Din for gerus, but > when Naami and Rus were alone they didn't have any Jewish men around at Or again, anonymous and unmentioned bit players. Who said they were all alone on the road? Maybe the road was better traveled than that? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:13:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] guessing at history? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031021308.GB14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 08:16:45AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I recently heard a shiur where the presenter described the "bad > scholarship" of the Torah Tmimah when offering the "misread abbreviation" > explanation (e.g. v'hazmanim really means fill in the holiday name). I > thought it a bit unkind since ISTM the guessing about the historical > circumstances of practices is what poskim do all the time (e.g. why some > women have a minhag not doing mlacha on rosh chodesh) I noticed that his father also gets very creative. The difference is, the Arukh haShulchan's creative sevaros are always to try to figure out how halakhah as practiced could have emerged from the texts. The TT doesn't have that limitation. But saying he was wrong doesn't need to be a value judgment. For example, his theory that saying "Migdol" in (after?) bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov came from someone confusing "B"Sh" for "BeShemu'el B" with "BeShabbos" is provably wrong. The Avudraham refers to the custom, and yet predates the Christian publishing of Shemuel in two volumes. Does that make the TT morally wrong for trying his best? Or intellectually dishonest when he clearly warns you he is theorizing? It is not unlike rabbanim who make other historical guess in the fact that he too gueses. What is different is that most don't have as high of a miss rate. Which means that you should buy into these theories with a lot of caution and independent research. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:15:16 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> References: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> Message-ID: <20191031021516.GC14724@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 05:18:40PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky > country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never > existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for > farming became less important. Also, when people were eating al taharas qodesh and otherwise were keeping all those halakhos seriously, there was a stronger drive to keep as much of Eretz Yisrael tahor as possible. In addition to pragmatic reasons to save real estate. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself, http://www.aishdas.org/asp "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now, Author: Widen Your Tent at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:20:03 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031022003.GD14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:35:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the > deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh > (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community > norms...)] How can it be? It's not like the chiyuv for the amud is really a chiyuv. Even qaddish is minhag -- and he could say that without taking the amud. For example, they say that R' Yisrael Salanter held that giving the amud to the other aveil is a better zekhus for the niftar than taking it yourself. I think that the main reason why culture so emphasizes this one ritual for aveilus is because of the number of people for which a year of going to shul regularly is the start of taking minyan more seriously for the rest of their lives. So, if we find other ways to encourage shul attendance (Qaddish is still an issue), even that motive is addressed. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a http://www.aishdas.org/asp person is to remain asleep and untamed." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 30 22:02:59 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/19 7:46 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn?t find it) although I?m guessing it?s based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty ? at least in > certain cases). It is indeed based on that. > So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei > mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is > kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] Bread is different, because the gemara specifies bread, and yes, crumbs smaller than a kezayit are beteilim and may be thrown out. AIUI one may deliberately break up a large piece into pieces smaller than a kezayit in order to throw them out. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 31 08:49:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031154951.GA2681@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in > certain cases).... The AhS OC 180:4 says that the worry about crumbs had to do with the Roman shulchan, which was a small one-person thing. And if you permitted the staff to take the table out without gathering the crumbs, they would likely do so even with bigger-than-kezayis pieces. (He even mentions a discussion in the gemara that allows hiring an am ha'aretz as a shamah.) But we today don't take the table out when not eating. (Which is why we need a ke'ara to remove or cover and then restore, as appropriate, at the seder.) The AhS says the problem is that people who wash before bread will disgracefully treat the bread on the floor from previous meals. The MB s"q 10 records a chumerah of not throwing out crumbs that total a kezayis. And, in accordance with the AhS's description of the motive, warns you not to walk on any bread crumbs. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless http://www.aishdas.org/asp he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness. Author: Widen Your Tent Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From penkap at panix.com Tue Nov 5 08:26:36 2019 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: <9D1EF0D1-F323-470E-AC49-C21245FA8691@panix.com> ?Re the discussion about a particular parnassa segula having to do with the disposal of bread, I always thought the best such segula was to get a good education and/or learn a trade. Doesn?t always work, I know, but no segula always works. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:00 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechilla Message-ID: An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:58 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:26 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:42:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Al tochlu mimenu na Message-ID: On the Mesorah list, we are having a discussion about the word "na" (nun-aleph), which often seems to mean "now" or "please". It was also compared to some other synonyms. I interjected that "na" also appears in Shemos 12:9 with an entirely different meaning, "undercooked". R' Zev Sero showed how this meaning is *not* so different after all: > Al tochlu mimenu na means "as it is now", uncooked. > Think "bistro", or "fast food". The fastest food is raw. It is a common error to think that "na" means "raw" here. Rashi on the pasuk defines "na" as "She'eino tzalui kol tzorko - It's not roasted all it needs" Rashi requires the Korban Pesach to be fully roasted, and it seems that even Maachal Ben Drusa'i would count as "na". Similarly, Torah Temimah there (#73 and #81) says that one who eats a Korban Pesach raw ("chai" is his word) has *not* violated this pasuk. (But he did fail to eat it roasted as required.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:06 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") Message-ID: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? The underlying motif of washing hands is ritual purification, similar to immersion in a mikve. The rabbinical decree to wash hands before meals is based on the purification the Kohanim underwent before eating their teruma offerings. The Talmud, however, gives a rather odd rationale for "mayim acharonim", washing hands after the meal. The Sages explained that this washing removes the salt of Sodom, a dangerous salt that can blind the eyes. [Chulin 105b] What is this Sodomite salt? What does it have to do with purification? How does it blind the eyes? Rav Kook explained that to answer to these questions we must understand the basis for the immorality of Sodom. The people of Sodom were obsessed with fulfilling their physical desires. Their concentration on self-gratification led to selfish, egocentric behavior. They expended all of their efforts chasing after material pleasures. No energy was left for helping the stranger; no time remained for kindness towards others. Eating a meal obviously involves sensual pleasure. The rabbis feared that since we eat several times every day, the importance of spirituality that truly perfects man can be decreased. As a preventive measure, the Sages decreed that we wash our hands before eating. This ritual impresses upon us the imagery that we are like the Kohanim, eating "holy" bread baked from teruma. The physical meal we are about to partake now assumes a spiritual dimension. Despite this preparation, the act of eating may to some extent reduce our holiness. Therefore, washing after the meal comes to counteract this negative influence. We wash away the salt of Sodom, the residue of selfish preoccupation in sensual pleasures. This dangerous salt, which can blind our eyes to the needs of others, is rendered harmless through the purification of "mayim acharonim". [Ayn Aya I:21] Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there. Bonnie Raitt Physical strength can never permanently withstand the impact of spiritual force. F.D.R. From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Nov 11 05:06:41 2019 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: <008601d59890$dc8ba6f0$95a2f4d0$@touchlogic.com> From: "Rich, Joel" ...Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? Many years ago (after reading the section in R Dessler on dreams) I had the same question. At the time, I asked R Wolbe z'l how much time/effort I s put into interpreting my dreams. He told me that when he was younger, he had a reoccurring dream and he went to the Chazon Ish to ask its significance and what he should do. He told me that the CI told him that today we not on the madregah that Hashem sends us msgs thru our dreams, and that he should ignore it. Mordechai Cohen From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:57:24 2019 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:57:24 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechila In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)?' Isn't that the same question as why we have the aseres ymei teshuva after RH, not before? After all, the purpose of asking mechila is that we can't have mechila or kapara on mitzvos bein adam l'makom until we've had mechila from those we've trespassed against (with apologies to external liturgy). So the minhag haolam re mechila and the teshuva of aseres ymei teshuva are all part of the same process and issue. The question of why the order of of RH/AYT/YK is what it is has been asked and has a number of approaches. But your question seems just part of that bigger question. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Nov 12 06:00:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Being Sekptical About Skepticism Message-ID: <20191112140022.GA6783@aishdas.org> From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/when-atheists-stole-the-moral-high-ground/ > The Spectator > Nick Spencer > 9 November 2019 > When atheists stole the moral high ground ... > Most of us like to believe that we believe what we believe because > rigorous reasoning and reliable evidence have led us there. Most of us > are wrong. It isn't that reason and evidence play no role in our religion > or lack of it; rather that they are saturated with deeper emotional, > social and practical concerns. As Julian Barnes writes in The Sense of > an Ending: 'Most of us... make an instinctive decision, then build up an > infrastructure of reasoning to justify it.' Du Perron was no doubt very > devout. Today he may well have been devoutly sceptical. But in neither > case is he likely to have been led to his dis/belief through reason alone. > That the emotions matter is well established in the case of religious > belief, as Stephen T. Asma's fine recent study Why We Need Religion > explains. But it is less well recognised when it comes to unbelief, and > particularly the history of unbelief. Here we are still wedded to the > romantic fable of fearless sceptics hacking their way through obscurantist > bigotry, armed with nothing more than their trusty sword of reason. See epigram in signature. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:37:18 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha Message-ID: Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:39:28 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah Message-ID: The chavot yair (252) was asked by a talmid chacham (TC) about the following circumstances: The TC's cousin vowed to provide the TC with weekly wine for Kiddush. The TC would rather use his own wine as he doesn't want to have a freebie with which to do a mitzvah (see Samuel 2.24:24) He fears however it would be stealing to use the provided wine as the cousin would not have given it to him if he knew he wasn't using it for Kiddush. The chavot yair provides a detailed analysis of whether such a condition is truly binding [the whole less than 100% free and clear sale topic is an interesting one - is it not a sale if the condition isn't met or is there a separate obligation] What caught my eye however was his endorsement of the TC's preference to pay for his own kiddush even if the wine wasn't as good! It's not based on the passage from Samuel [I suspect since that case was a purchase from a non-ben brit) but rather because "tfei hiddur v'dikduk mitzvah havi im koneh ladavar mkiso dlo havi msitca d'chinam dmistra milta yesh lanu od rayah mhazohar" it's more of a beautification and scrupulousness in mitzvoth if he buys it himself so it's not free and even though this is clearly logical, we have a proof from the zohar.] My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). My meta guess would've been soneih matanot yichyeh (it's better not to take gifts) but that would require not taking the donated wine at all - which didn't seem up for grabs. Any thoughts other than behavioral economics? (we value our own things more) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:07:29 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") In-Reply-To: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> References: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191118190729.GA14270@aishdas.org> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 09:50:06AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg relayed the following piece from Gold from the Land of Israel, R' Chanan Morrison, adapted from Ein Eyah vol 1 pg. 21: > The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom > and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one > should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? But does it have anything directly to do with the city's evil or its destruction? One would be tempted to say yes, because Lot's wife *looked* back at the Cities of the Plains and was turned to salt. And the thread of melach sedomis is to ones eyesight, of all things. But this is a reference to getting an actual salt that they were using alongside normal table salt (sodium chloride) into one's eyes. There is no need to take this out of the realm of physical danger. Salt extrated from the flats in the area has far more adulteration with potassium chloride than anything we would consume today. (In fact, the modern town of Sedom was built specifically for potash [a mix of potassium compounds, mostly potassium carbonate] works.) So it makes sense in mundane terms -- potassium chloside is a moderate eye irritant, and sites also warn about abrasion in the eye as well. And in fact, to make malach sodomis more symbolic would complicate the Ashkenazi neglect of mayim achronim. We don't wash because the salt isn't used. If the salt were symbolic of Sedom and thus hand-washing more in the territory of impurity, we would need to prove that the lack of using the salt sufficiently weakens the symbolism to allow neglecting the ruling. (Back when RRW was on-list, I noted that the Ashk - Seph split on this backed up a theory he repeated here. According to Prof Agus, Ta Shma and others [not R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik], because many more Ashkneazim came ultimately from EY, rather than the more predominantly Bavli origins of Sepharadim, we can find a number of minhagei Ashk and liturgical elements sources in the Y-mi or Midrashei Halakhah even when against the Bavli. The Bavli gives two reasons for mayim achronim -- a comparison to watchin before the meal, and thus about taharah, and melach sedomis. The Y-mi only mneitons melach sedomis. Which would explain why Ashk feel free not to wash when no such salt is served, but Seph do not.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes http://www.aishdas.org/asp exactly the right measure of himself, and Author: Widen Your Tent holds a just balance between what he can - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:16:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118191623.GB14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:37:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the > period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) The Be'er Heitev says that for men it's only until one counts. Looks like the usual "don't do your own thing you might forget to do the mitzvah" taqanah (but in minhag form). The AhS (s' 9) "vegam `atah yeish nashim" who keep this minhag. But the minhag was ONLY accepted by women and ONLY until sefirah after maariv. What "after maariv" meant for single women in towns where there multiple times for maariv is beyond me. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:29:25 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118192925.GC14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:39:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in > the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the > better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure > additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). I can't answer your "in addition", but in general. One Shabbos haGadol derashah R Menachem Zupnik included the idea that it is better to use wine you bought for the four kosos than wine you got for free (for example, in "shalachmanos"). The idea is that this is actually the finer wine, regardless of the taste of the two wines. And therefore, Ashkenazim would choose white wine they bought over red wine they were given. Whereas Sepharadim prioritize color over taste preference, and therefore over this too. Perhaps it's an issue of "Adam rozeh beqav shelo mitish'ah qavim shel chaveiro." (R Kahana, BM 38a) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 19 15:40:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: <35B73FAF-B266-4A97-980D-07F0F8014233@sibson.com> If one (or a whole community)normally eats sliced apple as part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 04:55:11 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as > part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make > a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for ritual purposes. My understanding is that this is exactly why we are told to have the maror in mind when we say haadamah on the karpas. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Nov 20 13:31:40 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191120213140.GQ29112@aishdas.org> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:55:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > R' Joel Rich asked: >> If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as >> part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make >> a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? > You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a > non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for > ritual purposes. To rephased RAM's answer in the terms I was planning to use... (Just because to the way I think, I find the first sentence below a clear summary.) Whether or not a food it part of the meal has little to do with the kind of food, and more with why it is being eaten. Yes, there are rules of thumb. Like assuming fruit during the meal wasn't really as part of the meal - which RJR's example of waldorf salad violates. Just as RAM's (deleted) example of maror defies the norms for why we eat vegetables during the meal. And is a close parallel to the minhag of eating an apple as part of a siman milsa. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 21 08:43:28 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion Message-ID: Please see the article at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5213 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Interestingly, overnight peeled eggs might actually be permitted according to several authorities, as Rashi (ad loc. s.v. she?avar) when explaining the prohibition omits eggs from the criteria.Additionally, there is some debate among several later poskim about what type of peeled eggs are intended for inclusion in the prohibition - cooked eggs or raw eggs. ohr.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Nov 22 09:11:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] "Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me" (by R/Dr Hillel Goldberg) Message-ID: <20191122171120.GA24498@aishdas.org> R Hillel Goldberg wrote The Fire Within, which inspired me to explore Mussar. (And is long out of print.) Dr Hillel Goldberg's PhD thesis became the book, "Israel Salanter, text, structure, idea: the ethics and theology of an early psychologist of the unconscious". Since, RHG inhereted leadership of the Intermountain Jewish News, published in Denver. He once again inspire me week's opinion colum again inspired me, so I'm including it in full. If you like your arti https://www.ijn.com/yes-directly-moses-speaks-to-me/ :-)BBii! -Micha PS: I noticed that K'tav doesn't list that book title with what I think of as "title caps", and I see RHG didn't do so with the article's title either. If someone could explain the rules of these things to me, off list, I would appreciate it. Bcc: Dr Alan Morinis, R/Dr Hillel Goldberg (Since I didn't take the time to reach out to get permission to share their addresses. Assume I will forward them any replies.) Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me [Rabbi Dr] Hillel Goldberg Nov 21, 2019 Columns, Opinion, View from Denver More venerable than the Kaddish, older than the Haggadah, earlier than Chanukah and Purim. A sense of Jewish history connects a Jew to his roots. It can also cloud those roots. Here is what I mean. If we ask, why be Jewish, Jewish history is one answer. There are many variations on the answer, but each one draws a Jew back in time, fostering a feeling of identity with Judaism or the Jewish people. Even so, these answers rarely take us back far enough. Consider the following reasons for connecting to Jewish history: I want to keep my own family customs alive. I do not want the Holocaust to be the end of the Jewish people. I know my passion for social justice comes from Jews always being the underdog. I relish research into my own genealogy. The more I learn about my past, the more I feel connected to it and proud of it, whether I am an Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe or a Sephardi from Spain, Greece or Iraq. I get the chills when I see Israel reborn. I sit in a philosophy class and feel special pride when Maimonides is held up as a major philosopher. I study about Rabbi Akiva, Rashi and the mystics in Safed, and I know I am connected to an eternal people. In the long arc of Jewish history, all of these examples are relatively recent. They are kind of like touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and feeling connected to the American Revolution more than 240 years ago, but then thinking of standing before the Western Wall, some 2,000 years old. As in, 240 years, big deal! I do not mean to discount my feelings of awe and gratitude upon visiting Independence Hall. But compared to Jewish memory, 240 years is a blink. The thing is, we may say the same even for the 2,000 year-old Western Wall, the most powerful, emotional site in Judaism. My sense of Jewish history may cloud just how far back my roots actually stretch. Just as we may skip over the Holocaust and Maimonides and our personal genealogy to reach back so much further to the Western Wall, we may skip back further still. Take, for example, the one topic that occupies the entire, 2,711 folio-page Babylonian Talmud more than any other: "carrying," the prohibition of transferring objects from one domain to another, or of carrying objects within a public domain, on the Sabbath. For those who do not observe this prohibition, I appeal to your intellectual curiosity. Where did this come from? It originates neither with Maimonides nor in the Talmud. It is not from the ancient Holy Temples nor even from the Prophets of Israel (save one). We stretch back not to the Holocaust 75 years ago, not to Maimonides 800 years ago, not to the Western Wall 2,000 years ago, not even to the Prophet Isaiah, some 2,800 years ago. Our roots go all the way back to the first Prophet, Moses, in the Sinai desert after the Exodus. We recall the generation of the desert, of the liberated Hebrew slaves from Egypt, not just in a ritual (the seder), not just as Jewish history, and not just as abstractions ("the beginnings of the Jewish people" or "the inception of the Jewish-Divine covenantal relationship"). No, we recall Moses in the desert for something very specific that was done then and sustained throughout the generations, down to this very next Shabbos. When the Tabernacle was under construction in the desert, as G-d had commanded in the Book of Exodus, our ancestors volunteered the raw materials, the fibers, precious metals and animal skins out of which the Tabernacle was made. One fine day, on a Shabbos, Moses told the entire encampments of the Israelites: Bring no more! Why? Because on Shabbos one is not to transfer from one domain to another; specifically, from the private domain (the Israelites' homes, their tents) to the public domain, the Levite camp, where Moses was stationed and the Tabernacle was to be constructed (Shabbat 96b). Think of this. On the very next Shabbos that I welcome this year -- me, you, here, right now -- if I refrain from carrying an object out of my home, I am under the spiritual canopy of Moses himself, of my people at its very inception. I am a direct link to the Israelite sojourn in the Sinai desert and to one of the first Words embraced in practice after the revelation at Mount Sinai. I am not just connected to my roots. I am living them. Copyright (C) 2019 by the Intermountain Jewish News From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 06:35:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do beer and whiskey not require bishul Yisroel (Jewish involvement in the cooking)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha A. Bishul akum is prohibited when two conditions are met: a) the food cannot be eaten raw and b) the food is worthy of being ?oleh al shulchan melachim? (served at fancy dinners). Beer and whiskey are made from cooked grains, which are not edible in a raw state. Thus, beer and whiskey satisfy the first condition for bishul akum. Nonetheless, Tosfos (AZ 31b: s.v. V?traveihu) writes that beer is not served at fancy dinners and therefore the second requirement for bishul akum is not present. This explanation suffices for beer, but not for whisky, which is served at fancy dinners. However, Tosfos offers a second explanation why beer is exempt from bishul akum. Although beer is made from the five grains, the bracha is Shehakol and not Mezonos because beer is primarily a water-based drink. By the same token, beer does not acquire a status of bishul akum because it is primarily water. Since water is edible in a raw state, it does not require bishul Yisroel. The same rationale applies to whiskey which is a water-based drink, and as such, does not require bishul Yisroel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 15:15:56 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:15:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav Message-ID: RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did. When a friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush, the Rav began to yell at him saying that this is false. I believe this Rav thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes. However, RSRH, following the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. RSRH writes, "Yet, even if we were incapable of explaining the strange events in this story; even if we were forced to conclude as the Ramban concludes ? , 'Our father Avraham inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land, about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another sin he committed )' ? nevertheless, none of this would perplex us. The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: ?Here you have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!? It does not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust. Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: ?Look upon Me! Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!? We are never to say: ?This must be good and right, because so-and-so did it.? The Torah is not an ?anthology of good deeds.? It relates events not because they are necessarily worthy of emulation, but because they took place. Rav Hirsch's essay about the education of Yaakov and Esav may be read at Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII) There is much wisdom in this essay about education. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Nov 27 11:50:12 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:50:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a > friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav > began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav > thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following > the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to > say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From sholom at aishdas.org Thu Nov 28 06:37:50 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237da176174e2f7bc95386dc5c7b4289@aishdas.org> RZS wrote: > On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >> RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a >> friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav >> began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav >> thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following >> the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to >> say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. > > Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. And Ramban, too? And, if so, RYL made a mistake, too -- the same one that R Noson Slifkin made: "rishonim are allowed to say that, but we're not allowed to say that" ;-) Chodesh Tov, everyone. (And Hodu-Day) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 28 08:57:43 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? Message-ID: I recall being at an Agudah Convention many years ago and being served turkey on Thanksgiving Day! >From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6105 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] Thanksgiving: Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Biur HaGr?a (Yoreh Deah 178: end 7) and Gilyon Maharsha (ad loc. 1). The Gr?a is bothered by the fact that the sugya in Sanhedrin seems to imply differently than the views of the Maharik, Ran, and later, the Rema, that a Chok Goyim, even one that is not a Chok Avodah Zarah should still be prohibited. Others who ask this question and conclude tzarich iyun on the Maharik?s shittah include ... ohr.edu >From the article On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. See the above URL for much more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Nov 28 10:31:05 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a 'holiday' and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving's origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. ---------------------------------------- But they did celebrate Mother's day? Veteran's day? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 1 09:32:10 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeitzei Message-ID: <64993E05-F027-4F31-89BE-8D9D0DF924EF@cox.net> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked. Chapter 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it have to say "from his sleep?" Of course it was from his sleep. All it had to say was: "And Jacob awoke.? Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt...? Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and THEN "And he dreamt...?? So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke ?from his sleep? which is redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if that?s the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first time should just have said ?And Jacob awoke?? I propose the following possible answer: In the first instance, when he had the dream, it was really a prophetic vision and it wasn't an ordinary sleep, hence, the word sleep was omitted. However, after the dream, he slipped into a regular sleep, and therefore it says he "awoke from his sleep.? From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 1 12:04:35 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bananas are Herbs Message-ID: <20191201200432.GF19738@aishdas.org> This video explains the difference between woody plants (trees and shrubs) and herbaceous plants. Bananas are among the talles herbs. And just what is a bannana "tree"'s "trunk"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMfTkDZlFQ So, the scientific taxonomy and hilkhos berakhos agree on this one. A banana is not peri eitz. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 13:31:46 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202213146.GA29446@aishdas.org> Rav Dovid Lifshitz didn't personally eat turkey because of iffyness of saying it fits the requirement for a kosher species of bird to be backed by a mesorah. Not lekhakhah, but as a personal chumerah. And yet R Dovid celebrated Thanksgiving. (Which was a more common sentiment in the refugee generation.) But he did so with a goose dinner. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 23:35:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Thursday Night Chulent Permissible? Message-ID: <20191203073543.GA8739@aishdas.org> I would strongly dis-recommend chulent before Shabbos lunch. (Be glad I am not yours or anyone's poseiq.) Here is my argument against. The Shabbos daytime meal is supposed to be more important than Friday night's meal. One is supposed to save their favorite dishes for lunch. The gemara even mentions chamin as one such food that should be saved! So what is Thu or Fri night chulent? It is taking a food invented for the purpose of contributing to making Shabbos lunch the high point of the week's food and being too impatient to get one's treat to show proper kevod Shabbos. Rashi (Gittin 38b) says that people who make Fri night the greater meal should fear punishment! See also AhS OC 271:9, who finds what he calls a "limmud zekhus" for people who serve their most special foods Fri night -- many of them aren't as enjoyable the next morning. But he says this is why we have kugel and chulent, foods that can remain on the fire all night. After seeing what is said about not saving special food for Shabbos lunch, and chulent is designed to be that special food, and having it Friday night, al achas kamah vekamah serving it before Shabbos altogether! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From t613k at mail.aol.com Tue Dec 3 09:31:18 2019 From: t613k at mail.aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] R' Osher Katz -- Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna In-Reply-To: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130117873.1655613.1575394278828@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends and Family, I would not normally send out something so personal but my brother-in-law, R' Osher Katz, was diagnosed with cancer three months ago -- Stage 4 -- and he has not yet begun treatment, because, for complicated reasons, he has no insurance and very low income. There is treatment that offers hope of a complete remission but it is unbelievably expensive. We have tried reaching out to many Jewish and secular organizations, so far with little result. My daughter Naomi has created this campaign with The Chesed Fund to raise funds for him to begin treatment. This is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. Scholarly Rabbi Can't Afford Cancer Treatment | The Chesed Fund PS Many people give anonymously because it's a public site and they don't want their name up there, so I don't know who gives and who doesn't. If you can't afford to give don't worry, don't feel pressured but say a kapitel please for a refuah sheleimah for Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna. --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com From ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 5 11:55:02 2019 From: ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca (Ari Meir Brodsky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Tonight (Thursday evening) begin Prayer for Rain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my annual friendly reminder.... Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily prayers, beginning with Maariv tonight (Thursday evening), December 5, 2019, corresponding to the evening of 8 Kislev, 5780. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. [Sephardim replace the entire blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to Prof. Lasker for the reminder.] I encourage everyone to remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at that time. Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/veten-tal-u-matar/ (Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.) And it's been raining this evening here in Israel, thank God! Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka, -Ari Meir Brodsky --------------------- Ari M. Brodsky Teaching Fellow Department of Mathematics Bar-Ilan University Ramat-Gan 5290002 ISRAEL ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 8 07:15:44 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayishlach Brotherly Love Message-ID: <52DF2CD4-5DD1-44B6-AAEE-C16FB12F5232@cox.net> One of the most moving scenes in the entire Torah is when Esau and Jacob meet after 20 years. Chapter 33, verse 4, says: "Esau ran toward him, embraced him, fell upon his neck, and kissed him; then they wept." The Netziv points out that all the verbs in this verse are in the first person and refer to Esau. "He ran, he embraced him; hefell upon his neck, he kissed him and they cried." All the verbs are in the (third person) singular, except the last one: "theycried." Both Jacob and Esau cried?such human drama and emotion! They cried. That's the very factor that made their meeting a success. Without both feeling the emotion, neither could feel the emotion. The connection of brothers is a paradigm for the connection of nations. We need each other, and in order to laugh together, we first must cry together. The Netziv goes on to say the day will come when Esau will truly embrace his brother Jacob in honest unadulterated compassion, then both brothers will cry in happiness. May we live to see this day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 9 09:38:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Balancing Observance and the Interpersonal Message-ID: <20191209173824.GA32478@aishdas.org> By R' Eliezer Eisenberg Teaser: Havolim Thursday, December 05, 2019 Vayeitzei. Reconciling LeChaveiro with LaMakom Overview After Yaakov had a dream where he received nevuas Elokim that told him to leave Lavan, why did he seek Rachel and Leah's advice and consent about leaving? 1. Rav Gifter When your mitzva creates a burden for another person, you have to discuss it with him first. 2. The Shlah, Reb Moshe, and lhbchlch Rav Sternbuch Mitzvos should be done with the understanding that they are Hashem's gifts to us. It is wrong to do them because we have no choice, and consider them to be burdens and hardships that we have to endure. It is important to understand this ourselves, and to explain to everyone involved why the mitzva is so right and so good, in order that they should realize and appreciate that Hashem gave us the mitzva for our to'eles. 3. The Seforno per Reb Chaim Brown Yaakov wasn't asking whether to go. He assumed they would go, but was asking for advice about the best way to go - should he tell Lavan, or sneak away. 4. Abarbanel The Abarbanel says in 28:16, on the story of the Sulam, that Yaakov made the neder because he wasn't sure if his vision was a prophecy or just a dream. This was, he says, Yaakov's first experience with Nevu'ah, so, as was the case with Shmuel Hanavi, he was not sure what had happened. If so, perhaps we can say the same is true here, that Yaakov wasn't be 100% sure whether it was nevu'ah or just a dream. I don't like this approach. It was not the first time, and he certainly knew by then that it was Nevu'ah. 5. RDNJS and ENE, crystallized by a he'ara from Rav Moish Pollack. This event is a perfect example of [baderekh shehadam rotzeh leileikh molikhin oso]. It seems clear that that the tzivui of Hashem was catalyzed by Yaakov's personal choice, by Yaakov's decision to follow this particular path. That being the case, Yaakov was obligated to discuss it with the people whose entire lives were affected by his choice. I really like this explanation because of how well it fits the order of pesukim and shtims with the story of Miriam and Aharon against Moshe. Discussion ... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:45:46 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ??? ??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????: The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it) [X] THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:47:02 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:47:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered Message-ID: Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide goes out" N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. Me- it's all about the demographics G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her original drive A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with women's issues.) E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold! Me- troop levels seem dangerously low M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it? E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. Me- see comment above Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. Me- or maybe yes C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic tradition. Me- amen. As in "instant classic" Really now Israel defines our Judaism. Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this] R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. Me- I hope that's true H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. Me- Ger vtoshav? From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 11 12:37:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211203708.GE8671@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together. > [Tur YD 116] ... because it is "qasheh latzara'as". And I think the tzara'as connection is key. Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a spiritual element. > The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) > seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef > [BY OC 173] Pesachim 76b. Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the "davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as. > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since > this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition > got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo > refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it) https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38 Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M. So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam (Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From zev at sero.name Thu Dec 12 16:05:33 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 12 18:52:32 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 02:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> References: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> Message-ID: On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. ------------------------- I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Mon Dec 16 08:23:08 2019 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I agree with Joel, not so simple. A few thoughts: 1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we are not meant to follow. 2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat (which only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small fish bones, which could lead to choking. 3. Source: the actual Gemara states: Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig]. Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it bad for odor and davar acher." Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous, rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first - if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor? 4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen: https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/ While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides, this study finds that fattier meat produces more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/ 5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy (?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like condition. 6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger; therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be understood ? and taught ? as merely customary. Alexander Seinfeld >On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. >>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the >>prohibition got extended so far > >It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can >cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. >------------------------- >I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the >danger >Kt >Joel rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Dec 17 09:58:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:58:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival Message-ID: For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/ [https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish Holidays - ou.org Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ... www.ou.org This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/ YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Dec 17 14:19:31 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. He starts off with: Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept. Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to ?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal. While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*. Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to the next generation. American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog. He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Dec 18 00:52:11 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> References: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> Message-ID: He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom ______________________________________________ I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century) THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 19:03:39 2019 From: hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com (Harry Maryles) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. ... > He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO > intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr > L'Goyim. Here are my thoughts: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1 HM Sent from my iPhone, Shirley. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:27:57 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] thanksgiving Message-ID: My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back: 1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?) 2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it as such) KT from a dual citizen Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:29:26 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them out there? KT Joel Rich From acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 05:32:33 2019 From: acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com (Allen Gerstl) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud. As a part of Talmud, Science (Maasei Bereishit) and Metaphysical Philosophy (Maasei Merkavah) involves knowing the works of HKBH with the goal of doing so to become closer to Him through evoking what is ultimately deep love (Ahava) of HKBH and wanting to "partner" with him in also helping the world fulfill His will and achieving such closeness. Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have explained this many times in this treatise. God is near to all who call Him, if they call Him in truth, and turn to Him. He is found by every one who seeks Him, if he always goes towards Him, and never goes astray. ..." This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models in our history. Kol Tuv, Eliyahu Gerstl, Toronto, Canada From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 18 14:51:09 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:19:31PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > See > https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ and part 2: https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world-part-2/ I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. 1. To start with the banal... The "hedgehog" metaphor isn't just about finding your company's strength and running with it. It's also about prioritizing other things out. We use the term all the time at work. We're not writing our own low-latency networking layer because there are people who do that full time. Our hedgehog is trading systems; why waste time doing something ourside that bailiwick -- find the company for whom low latency networking is their hedgehog. So, to really use the idea here would mean to leave learning to the yeshivish, davening to chassidim, go out of kiruv since Chabad does it, and just focus on leOr Goyim. Let everyone do what they do best, and hire out the other jobs to those who do each of those jobs best. Yissachar and Zevulun, but on steroids. The idiom was misused. (Totally irrelevant; it just felt good to get that off my chest.) 2. Second, a movement is a group of people who gather around an Ism, not the other way around. You can't save Mod-O by giving them a different ideal, even one you feel is related to their current one. That's killing one movement by creating a new thing to attract its adherents. Nothing too terrible. After all, the only value in a movement is whether it generates fealty to Torah umitzvos, not as an end in itself. You can't just tell people "here's your new ideal now". (Which is basically the same as RJR's point.) That mod-O crowd would have to buy into this leOr Goyim Ism for themselves. You can't just propose it in a Lehrhaus article. Look how many decades of leadership it took RYBS to put his fingerprint on the Mod-O ideal, and even that was only in the realm of nuance about what "u" means, and what "mada" does. You expect to totally redirect the community without having a rabbi's rabbi at the helm? Then figure out how to fire up a grass roots movement. Because we are not talking about a "hedgehog", we are talking about what idea people should put front-and-center in their life's mission statement. The target here is diaspora Mod-O. This leOr Goyim wouldn't be attractive to somoene living in a Jewish State. Nor to someone who doesn't believe in a Torah-and hashkafah with its openness to participating in general society. But it's not Mod-O's current Ism in any way similar in emphasis or behavior. 3. As for Torah uMada... I wrote here a couple of times that I don't think it speaks well to the masses. First, because RYBS's vision of "mada" really only appeals to the academically inclined. Second, because his "u" is dialectical. Not too many people even know what a neo-Kantian means by dialectic. It's not a synthesis. It is not compartmentalization of two opposites. It's finding meaning in their interplay, without expecting to get to resolution. Can the masses do that with Torah uMadda? Or are the outcome inevitably going to be primarily a population of compromizers and a population of compartmentalizers? TuM thus has the rare problem that imperfect following of this ideal is actually worse than not chasing it at all. Because it gives motive to compromising one's fealty to Torah! TiDE doesn't have these problems, since DE has more to do with being a refined human being as defined by being cultured. High culture, not academic knowledge. And synthesis, not dialetic. The Tzitz Eliezer, in a festschrift for RSRH, described TiDE as a hylomorphism (a tzurah vachomer). That derekh eretz is the substance to which a person is supposed to give Torah's form. AND, TiDE includes much of what R Gil Perl writes about here. But without making it the front-and-center. The idea of Yaft Elokim leYefes veYishkon be'ohalei Sheim is not just that Sheim should benefit from Yefes's yofi, but that Sheim has the job of being the moral and spiritual voice in the partnership. But again, making that aspect of things the centerpiece of the movement would be something new. 4. In terms of defensibility... We are given the whole Torah project in order that we be a "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh". Hashem introduced maamad Har Sinai with those words. Arguably the Torah is to the Jews as the Jews are supposed to be to the world -- the means of obtaining Devar Hashem. But, aniyei irekha qodmin... How do you make a movement about bringing Hashem's values to non-Jews that doesn't invest more effort in doing the same to our fellow Jews? The dialectic (sorry!) between universalism and Jewish particularlism can't be thrown out the window. Although, Universalism is in now, Jewish particularism being too close to the lately much maligned ideal of nationalism. I am not saying the idea that the Torah can be viewed as a way to make us a priesthood caste to the rest of the world is false. I am just wondering if that way of viewing the Torah can possibly attract people well enough to build a new movement around. And in fact in much of part II, RGP himself spells out reasons why, for which his solutions fall flat to my ear. The Post-Modern era is not one in which the idea of spreading the message to others is going to win adherents. His answer is to sure to brand on LeOr Goyim instead of Or laGoyim, to inform rather than to preach. "My calling is not to convince you of their certitude, but to humbly offer you a glimpse of their beauty." But it is exactly the kind of subtlety that would get lost in the translation to a mass movement. One slides into the other and out of fitting with the times. 5. OTOH, what is exciting many Mod-O Jews today on a spiritual plane is what a famous Jewish Action article (somewhat incorrectly) labeled Neo-Chassidus. A worldview built on the Peiczeza and Nesivos Shalom, Tanya, Bilvavli and the Chalban. With the music of Carlebach and lots of epigrams by Rav Nachman. The opposite direction from reaching out.... Deveiqus. A Me-and-G-d way of viewing Judaism. We even have a similar problem in The Mussar Institute. (Whose audience are "spiritually seeking Jews", primarily from the non-O world.) People are getting so caught up in middah work, the reaching in, that I have a personal agenda to focus on the bein adam lachaveiro part of R Yisrael Salanter's message. Perfection in middos being their maximizing our ability to be givers (REED), to be nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chazkel), leheitiv im hazulas (R Shimon Shkop), etc... Selling an Other-Focused Judaism, even one with a universalist spin, may not be the world's easiest sell. Myself, I would push an Other-Focused Judaism too, but without the deemphasis of ahavas Yisrael in favor of ahavas haberios. And, for that matter, leheitiv im hazulas applies to physical chessed to my wife, family, friends and neighborhood well before the hatavah of teaching the world what the Torah has to offer. My spirituality starts with concern for my stomach and your soul. If only I knew how to make that message attractive in a world where products are made popular by putting the word "I" in front of their names. But that's where my own quest as moved since the days when this list began. Mussar is a good idea, and one I hadn't given up on. But it never was a mass movement, and likely something that requires that much work never could be. But could in theory be practiced by anyone is a Torah based on the idea that Hillel's saying that the whole Torah is "de'alakh sani, lechaverkho lo sa'avid" was means seriously, or that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is a kelal gadol even after you leave the poster behind when you leave the 2nd grade classroom. A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit. If only I knew how to fight those elements of the zeigeist. But then, I am not trying to rebuild an already existing movement. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:00 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cellphones on Shabbos Message-ID: There is currently a thread on Areivim titled "more than one quarter of MO youth admit to using their phones on Shabbos", in which R' Danny Schoemann commented: > And I'm sure on Avoda we've discussed why and how using a phone > is Chillul Shabbos. If not, then maybe we should. I can very easily understand people for whom the temptation is so great that they succumb occasionally or even often. But I don't think that's what you're asking. Are you suggesting that these kids honestly don't realize that using a cell phone on Shabbos is assur? It seems to me: Even the most basic listing of the 39 Melachos is more complicated than is needed for this discussion. A discussion of Kavod Shabbos would also be counterproductive. Just ask them: "You don't turn lights on and off, do you? What the difference between that and everything that lights up on the screen?" Or ask them: "You wouldn't write something with pen and paper, would you? How is texting any different?" I concede that if we wanted to, we could get involved with all sorts of lomdish chakiras to answer those questions. But none will make a nafka mina regarding mutar/assur. They are all d'Oraisa/d'Rabanan distinctions, distracting us from the main point, which is that there is no way to use a cellphone on Shabbos except for legitimate medical needs. Kol hamosif gore'a. Comments? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Dec 18 14:37:11 2019 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:37:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel Message-ID: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah related): "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23)? Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information about this?? I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers.? Joseph Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 15:29:25 2019 From: rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> R. Micha, Thank you for including me on this rich and thoughtful post. Here are my thoughts, responding to some of your points in the order that you made them. - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? Did Chabad always emphasise the outreach which has become their trademark activity? I also wonder if the comparison can be made with the other movements that Rabbi Perl mentioned. Chabad, religious Zionism, Torah Im Derech Eretz and the yeshivah movement were all started by ideological leaders with a particular agenda. Was this so of Modern Orthodoxy? I guess what I'm questioning is whether Modern Orthodoxy is based on some kind of founding ideal and agenda which would be transformed if we were to go the path Rabbi Perl is suggesting. - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development in the Modern Orthodox community. It remains to be seen how much can be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer to is instructive. - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate central concept for the community. - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work you have given to the cause over decades. But doesn't a life commitment to Talmud Torah take work? Doesn't the Chabad shlichus demand self-sacrifice for others? I'm sure there are ways to respond to this, making chilukim, etc. but I am not as inclined to rule out the broad acceptance of an approach to middot, chesed, nosei b'ol, etc in our communities. As you know, I'm working on a conference to set a process in motion. If you don't try, you won't know! Best, Anthony Check out The Rise Together Project at and my website at Rabbi Anthony Knopf From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:58:07 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191222185807.GA18920@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:03pm CST, R Harry Maryles pointed us to his blog post "Of Hedgehogs and Ideology" at written in response to R Gil Perl's two-part essay on The Lerhaus. Responding to RHM's blog post: ... > That said, I do not believe that Modern Orthodoxy should make being an > or LaGoyim its passion no matter how noble it is. In my view it should be > defined the way it is traditionally defined as adhering to the ideology > of Torah U'Madda (TuM). And skipping ahead to his close for a minute: > Does that leave Modern Orthodoxy bereft of the hedgehog concept? > Perhaps. But in my view using a Mitzvah that does not really define what > we are really about in order to excite passion in us will in my view - > not work. I thought of this while responding to a very different conversation on Facebook. Someone advocated a more meiqil approach to halakhah on the grounds that the way O is done is scaring people away. I made two objections: C was only one failed attempt at this approach -- it just doesn't work. People just don't bother conforming to the lower standard. The other objection ended with an on-topic one-liner: You can't save something by redefining it. But it matters less here. We don't really need to save Mod-O as much as maximizing the shemiras Torah umitzvos of people who affiliate Mod-O. So, assuming I thought people would stay with that affiliaiton even as the movement redefined itself, I wouldn't object. But personally, the resulting movement wouldn't be for me. As I see it, halakhah has me prioritize those closer to me ahead of those further -- so immediate family, friends, aniyei iri, etc... and much further down are non-Jews. The triage doesn't fit making providing Kol Yaaqov to the community dialog our highest priority. The other problem is that I already bought into Mussar's adage that "my ruchnius means concern for my soul and your stomach". (Something the pre-War chassidishe rebbe who was the rav of the shtielb of my childhood also regularly said.) When it comes to others, gashmi aid is a higher priority than moral education. Again, a different triage. > Rabbi Perl rejects that. He references R' Norman Lamm who - as he points > out - literally wrote the book on that subject. Rabbi Lamm says that > TuM is not an ideology but rather pedagogy - a means of `arriving at > knowledge of the Creator through the avenues of science and the arts'. > In my view, that is a distinction without a difference. Aren't all > Orthodox Jewish ideologies ultimately about that? YU-style Mod-O is indeed Mod Yeshivish. The RIETS morning is no less a child of Volozhin than Lakewood is. But it's not true that "all Orthodox Jewish ideologies" are about "arriving at knowledge of the Creator". The Rambam would go for that. But chassidishe deveiqus is about having a relationship with the Borei, not learning about him. Knowing G-d, rather than knowing *about* G-d. More on this in a reply REGerstl's email, which became its own thread about the Rambam's notion of life's purpose. ... > Not only that, but TuM need not be studied only by > the elite anymore than Torah should. We each do the best we can with > the capabilities God gave to us to do it. Perhaps if you stick with *should*, but what's the motivator for learning mada for the majority of MO Jews? It's not overtly one of the 613, and the person isn't academic by nature, what's driving that time investment into secular studies. And where in the entire span of secular studies are they to choose among if they don't have a personal drive to pick up academic knowledge? On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:29:25PM +0000, R Anthony Knopf replied to my post, writing: > - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their > point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? ... Evolve is different than reinvent. Theseus's Paradox is a thought experiment about the ship Theseus sailed in stories recorded by Plutarch. During the course of his travels, say a sail tore and was replaced. Is it the same ship? Maybe on the next trip, he replaced the mast. Let's say over the course of his lifetime, every single plank and board in that ship was replaced. Theseus would have had continuous use of a ship, at all times it sure seemed like the same ship, and yet there is nothing in it now that was in the original. Is it the same ship? Identity evolves differently than sudden redefinition. But this is a bit off coarse. We're getting more caught up in whether, if the Mod-O infrastructure and membership would largely go for a leOr Goyim ideology, if they would still be Mod-O or not. Which gets more into the definition of a movement than either issues of right or wrong or of feasibility. I really wanted to focus on feasibility. I don't think MO membership would feel they're on the same ship if this were attempted. And so, it wouldn't work. > - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus > article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. > And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a > powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development > in the Modern Orthodox community... I think the question of ultimate purpose is a critical one, regardless of who we're talking about. I recently ran a workshop to help people write life- > be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of > "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer > to is instructive. But it manages to do so without leaving Torah uMada. It seems the Brisker tenor of Mod-Yeshivish a la RYBS is a less deeply held emotional issue. The feeling that we're staying on the same core idea is still there. After all, my youth included some very neo-Chassidus like moments at NCSY kumzeitzin. > - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding > an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the > difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than > "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of > Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent > academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate > central concept for the community. I do to, but... > - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a > popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work > you have given to the cause over decades... > But doesn't a life > commitment to Talmud Torah take work? But then, the learning that has become most popular is daf yomi. You get a feeling of acocmplishment. It's like the difference between a second hand and an hour hand on a watch. The second hand is doing 3,600 times the work, but you can see it working. An hour hand.... Working on middos is slow. There is no "I finished my first mesechta" or "500 blatt" or whatever. You work and you work, and eventually you notice the hour hand is pointing to a new hour when your wife says something about how you've been with the kids lately. And even that is months or years away from then you started. Well, now that I have split my dream into two, I can more easily articulate it. I hope. A central idea for AishDas is to plant the seed of "a vaad in every shul", paralleling the spread of daf Yomi. We had other ideas that we would "get to later", but really the only project we ever invested effort in was the spread of ve'adim. My dream was not that you would have a whole movement of people actively working on their middos. Halevai you could, but as you just noticed, I don't think the masses are ready for years and years of work before seeing signficant results. Character change is slow. Rather, I thought that the existence of those 5-6 people in the va'ad would have secondary effects on the rest of the shul. All the value we're supposed to be giving ehrlachkeit would stay in the discussion. We would be able to see a Yahadus in which how you act on line for the bus is no less a defining feature of who is "one of us" as is what a person eats. More recently, really since I was waiting for the editing of my sefer, I started trying to put another buzzword out there -- Other-Focused Orthodoxy. Because there has to be exploration on how to get to an ehrlachkeit-centered rather than frummkeit-centered observance through ways other than hoping the kind of people AishDas was reaching to would have cultural influence on the kelal. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:19:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] The Rambam's Hedgehog (was: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191222181924.GA22988@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:32pm GMT, R Eliyahu Gerstl responded to RGP's thesis: > I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's > concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct > to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be > considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. > The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch > davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: > Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud... I don't see two points here in the Rambam, Yesodei haTorah 2:1-3 and Hil' Talmud Torah 1:11. In YhT the Rambam defines ahavas H' and yir'as Hashem in terms of a thirst to know about G-d. Because, as I wrote above (in response to RHM), it seems to me the Rambam defines his "deveiqus" (as REG puts it) as an intellectual unity. "What is the way to love Him and feel yir'ah for Him? When a person contemplates His Actions and His Creations, which are nifla'im gedolim, and sees His Chokhmah in it... immediately he love, praises, glorifies, and mis'aveh ta'avah gedolah ot know the sheim hagadol..." First, in TT 1:11, the shelish betalmud is halachic dialectic -- "... until he knows what are the iqar of the midos [shehaTorah nideshes bahen] and how to extract what is assur and what is mussar, andthe like, from what he studied from the oral tradition." Not aggadita. We do find aggadita included with Mada in YhT 2:2 as the means to ahavas veyir'as Hashem. Different mitzvos than TT. To skip to the end of this post too because I want to respond to it together with the above: > This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing > on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of > HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by > a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models > in our history. What neo-Chassidus shows is that the Mod-O Jew is looking for some experiential / emotional Judaism. But in any case, I don't think the Rambam's parallel to deveiqus is a major element in today's hashkafic discourse. Too cerebral, too much aimed only at the academic. I also amnot sure the Rambam's hashkafah was particularly popular among Chazal either. > Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 To me, the core thought of this last pereq of the Moreh is his ranking of the 4 types of perfection the gemara expects of a navi -- wealth, health, intellect and middos. The Rambam flips the last two, not only in the order he presents them, but the Rambam is clear that these are asvending types of perfection. That only intellectual perfection is a permanent refinement of the most core part of the self: The fourth kind of perfection is the true perfection of man: the possession of the highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards God. With this perfection man has obtained his final object; it gives him true human perfection; it remains to him alone; it gives him immortality, and on its account he is called man. Examine the first three kinds of perfection, you will find that, if you possess them, they are not your property, but the property of others; according to the ordinary view, however, they belong to you and to others. But the last kind of perfection is exclusively yours... And as REG also quoted: > ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by > him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the > knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the > manner in which it influences His creatures in their production > and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will > then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, > and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have > explained this many times in this treatise. Really, more so than middos and character? And so I thought for decades, until I saw RYBS said differently. Not that I understand how RYBS reaches that concludion, given how much of pereq 54. And the opening chapters of the Moreh about how the eitz hadaas messed up the pursuit of knowledge by introducing precondition steps; the definition of nevu'ah as an overflow from the Active Intellect; 3:18 where he defines a homo sapien's personhood in proportion to their knowledge, so that a person receives hashgachah peratis is proportional to yedi'ah; and 3:51 and the castle garden metaphor at the start of the Moreh's closing section. Really, it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the Moreh Nevuchim. BUT RYBS understands this section of 3:54 as saying that even yedi'ah isn't the end of the human endevor, chesed, mishpat and tzedaqah are. Looking at pereq 53: This chapter encomapsses the meanig of three sheimos that needs explaining: chesed, mitzpat, and tzedaqah. And so on, until: We have shown that "chesed" refers to gemilus chesed gamur, and "tzedaqah" to any good that one does because of the loftiness of middos, to thereby complete one's nefesh, and "mishpat" sometimes has an outcome of neqamah, and sometimes tov. We already epxlained how distant attributes are [from theology][ that any attribute one attributes to the Deity yisbarakh in the books of nevi'im is an attribute of action. ... And then the Rambam returns to this idea later in 54. The navi does not content himself with explaining that the knowledge of G-d is the highest kind of perfection; for if this only had been his intention, he would have said, ... He says, however, that man can only gain praise for himself in the knowledge of G-d and in the knowledge of His "Ways and Attributes", which are His actions, as we have shown (MN 1:54) in expounding the passage, "har'eini na es Kevodekha" (Exod. 38:13). We are thus told in this passage that the Divine acts which ought to be known, and ought to serve as a guide for our actions, are, ch??es, mishpat, antzedaqah." Another very important lesson is taught by the additional phrase, "ba'aretz." It implies a fundamental principle of the Torah; it rejects the theory of those who boldly assert that God's providence does not extend below the sphere of the moon, and that the earth with its contents is abandoned, that "azav H' es ha'aretz" (Yechezqeil 8:12). It teaches, as has been taught by the greatest of all wise men in the words, "Lashem ha'atez umloa'ah" (Shemos 9:29), that His providence extends to the earth in accordance with its nature, in the same manner as it controls the heavens in accordance with their nature.... And so on. So far, all about knowledge of HQBH. Even chesed, tzedaqah umishpat are about knowing *Hashem's* HZu"M, and that there is hashgachah in this world. And then, this: The navi thus, in conclusion, says, "ki ba'eileh chafatzti, ne'um H'" i.e., My object [in saying this] is that you shall practise HZu"M the earth. In a similar manner we have shown (MN 1:54) that the object of the enumeration of H's 13 Middos is the lesson that we should acquire similar attributes and act accordingly. The object of the above passage is therefore to declare, that the perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired -- as far as this is possible for man -- the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek HZu"M, and thus to imitate the ways of G-d. We have explained this many times in this treatise. So, the purpose of all this knowledge is to know what to emulate. And yet the perfection of the knowledge is a greater perfection than the perfection of the middos one acquired by emulation? What am I missing? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 16:11:11 2019 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: In Avodah v37n97, one of R'Micha's last thoughts was > A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit < which brings us back to TiDE and RSRH's Mensch Yisrael. --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 03:18:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > What percentage of people would like to know how they are > really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self- > image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not > telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them > out there? Personally, I would love to know about the things I do that are viewed negatively by others. If I had that information, I could either correct my actions, or I could explain myself to them and thereby improve their views of me, and possibly even improve how *they* act. However, as much as I would like that, I generally do not tell others when I view them negatively. To do so successfully requires a great deal of tact and sensitivity, and experience has shown me that I usually fail when I attempt these things. I believe that this approach is supported by the halachos of Tochacha: attempt to correct people, but first, do no harm. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 24 23:14:21 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 07:14:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv Message-ID: From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, it should be done by example. My response: Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner consistent with the will of HKB"H. If the result is we are mekarev them (as imho it would be if we act this way), great BUT that is not our ultimate goal (much as we don't do mitzvot for reward, it's an ancillary benefit) Your thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Dec 26 09:42:22 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=96_A_Torah_View?= Message-ID: https://rabbiefremgoldberg.org/audio_listing/celebrating-birthdays-a-torah-view/ I think that many will be surprised by this talk. There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 26 20:05:48 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 04:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=E2=80=93_A_Torah_View?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F184740-02E5-426B-85CE-342B8AA10C63@sibson.com> There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL ______________________________________________ I gave a shiur on this a number of years back. My main take away was it should be used as an opportunity for reflection, Not A celebration per se Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 20:07:55 2019 From: jmeisner at gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:07:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel In-Reply-To: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:36 AM Joseph Kaplan via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel > in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in > Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah > related): > > "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah > scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival > in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who > were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, > etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23< > https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/babylonian_exile/>)? > > Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: > > ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any > assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely > the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during > this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the > assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information > about this?? > > I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about > is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows > what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article > and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical > sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher > butchers.? > I assume that the author was taking creative license based on Sanhedrin 38a, which states more generally that the galus of Tzidkiyahu was pushed earlier so that they would arrive while the charash and the masger of the galus of Yechonya were still alive. To address RDYL's question, what would such help have looked like? A brigade of soldiers (or elephants)? A steady stream of volunteers? Massive infusions of gold that could be used to buy modern weaponry on the black market? Considering the distance between Bavel and Eretz Yisroel and the difficulty in traveling between one and the other, this question may have a very modern bias to it. I was going to suggest that the king of Persia may have further objected to any of this assistance leaving his territory, but, according to Wikipedia, the Parthians did not conquer Bavel until shortly after the neis of Chanukah, prior to which it was until the control of the... Seleucids. Hence, the Seleucid governor of Bavel certainly would not have approved of any aid being provided to the rebellion in Eretz Yisroel. Did the decrees against Torah in Eretz Yisroel also apply in Bavel? I've never heard this discussed. More generally, it seems that we (or maybe just I?) know little about the Jews of Bavel during the time period in question. Ezra (and perhaps Zerubavel) left there a couple of centuries earlier, while Nechemya left from and Mordechai and Esther were in Paras. There are a handful of tanna'im called Bavli'im, but the center of the chachmei hamishnah was clearly in Eretz Yisroel. While it's conceivable (although perhaps not likely) that there were direct lines from the yeshivos of the charash and masgeir to the yeshivos of Rav and Shmuel, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was strong religious leadership the whole time that would have coordinated such an assistance drive for the Chashmona'im. Just a few thoughts. A lichtige Chanukah (What's the origin of this phrase, by the way?), Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Mon Dec 30 05:19:42 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Anti-Semitism is Out of Control Message-ID: <7172577B-31F7-4CA0-B25C-35C37FB57BFF@cox.net> It is imperative to address the rampant anti-Semitism which is on the rise exponentially. Please watch the following (under) 10 minute television interview of former NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind. It is time we realize that the laws of the ?rodef? definitely apply to the anti-Semite. https://www.foxnews.com/media/dov-hikind-hanukkah-stabbing-new-york-anti-semitism From micha at aishdas.org Tue Dec 31 22:03:37 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 01:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro Message-ID: <588c3f15-5b25-452b-9857-ca858cb7cd12@Michas-iPad> CC: RRYE So, RRYEisenman's recent Short Vort has been making the rounds. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1815470 (Carried as OpEd pieces in both The Yeshiva World and Matzav.) RRYW writes: Op-Ed: Important "Checklist" Of Things To "Bring" To The Siyum Hashas December 31, 2019 11:00 am As the horrifying events of Monsey are still so fresh in our minds, coupled with other over manifestations of anti-Semitism in the New York area, it behooves all of us to rethink our preparations for the great convocation of Jews on Wednesday in Met-Life Stadium. ... Keep in mind that this event is a momentous one for Kavod HaTorah and for Kavod Shomayim. The last-minute items to remember to pack: 1. SMILE a. Most important: remember to bring your best smile with you. ... e. Keep in mind that all of the workers, security people, police, maintenance people, cleaning staff, parking attendants and anyone else working are human beings. f. These are the same human beings who our Sages say about them, "Beloved are human beings, for they was created in the image of Hashem...as it says, "For in the image of G-d, He made human beings". (Genesis 9:6) g. You must smile when you see someone created in the image of Hashem. h. Can you think of any other greater irony than for 100,000 plus people who are the children of Hashem who have come to give honor to Hashem, not recognizing those who are also created in His image? i. Smile, smile and smile more at each and every person you meet. 2. Happy New Year! a. These people are all working on what is to them one of the most important and universally observed holidays: the day which is called New Years Day. b. It is totally irrelevant that these people are also getting paid ... 3. Thank You a. This might be the most important item to remember to bring. ... Most importantly, we have the opportunity to bring Kavod and honor to His Holy name. Note his repeated appeal to bein adam laMaqom (BALM) terms. Smile at a person because he is a tzelem E-lokim and it is part of giving honor to HQBH. Or qiddush hasheim / avoid chillul hasheim. And this theme came up more in discussions of this OpEd on social media. But I have an open question about this strategy that I have been chewing on for years. Maybe people here have opinions. We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom. And so, in the short run, it makes sense to sell bein adam lachaveiro by emphasizing the BALM aspects of it -- respecting Hashem by respecting a tzelem E-lokim, and chillul vs. qiddush hasheim. But... I am not sure if I like the message or not. Isn't the road out of this whole mess a realization that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is the more central principle of the Torah? If we reinforce the idea that it is only "really" against the Torah is it interferes with my relating to the Creator, will we be in the same boat a generation from now? Are we getting people to do the right thing, and atttidue will follow any behaviors we can encourage? Can we create the right habit this way? Or are we reinvorcing the imbalanced attitude, and we'll never get out of this "frumkeit" hole? I have picked up the conundrum repeatedly since starting on my book. I don't have an answer, though. Your thoughts? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and http://www.aishdas.org/asp this was a great wonder. But it is much more Author: Widen Your Tent wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "mensch"! -Rav Yisrael Salanter From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 1 18:49:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Av Message-ID: A thought for Tu B'AV: R'SBG (taanit 30b) designates the two most yamim tovim (holidays) Yom Kippur and Tu B'av. While the gemara lists a number of events which occurred on Tu B'av, I've always been partial to Yom Tvar Hamaagal (the day they stopped cutting wood for the wood pile). Initially I favored it as a paradigm for priority juggling (going back to Torah learning when your job is done), but it occurred to me that the pairing with Yom Kippur is exquisite - Yom Kippur being representative of the short spurt/high profile avodat Hashem while Tu B'av represents the ongoing low profile diligent avodah of daily life. We need both! GCT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Oct 2 09:44:52 2019 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:44:52 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Oct 1, 2019 05:57:56 pm Message-ID: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a few weeks. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 2 15:57:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20191002225720.GA3766@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 04:44:52PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: >> In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a > few weeks. I know Rashi says it's like "beshegam" with a segol, and then explains it as "bishvil shegam". And maybe the Torah contracts "asher" only when sandwitched after a be-? It would explain the uniqueness. But I find Ibn Ezra's comparison to the shin in shekhakha (in "ashrei ha'am shekakha lo") more compelling, and the Ramban did too. The Netziv has the shin as part of the shoresh, as in "mishagmaso". Etc... As RJFS writes, it's "one *possible* exception". GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder] http://www.aishdas.org/asp isn't complete with being careful in the laws Author: Widen Your Tent of Passover. One must also be very careful in - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF the laws of business. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 2 22:13:18 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut Message-ID: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. [PS: I'm not sure whether this belongs on Avodah or Areivim] -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 3 11:37:39 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 > We know that Pas Paltur, "Baker's Bread," is actually permitted year > round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all > one's bread products are strictly Pas Yisrael. But what do these terms > mean? And why should we be stringent with this, of all halachos, and > why specifically now? And what about Shabbos? > Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter > of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily > available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and > the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot > purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress > that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. See the above URL for more. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 3 16:50:05 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003235005.GA11274@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 06:37:39PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 >> Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter >> of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily >> available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and >> the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot >> purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress >> that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. So that while the Yerushalmi's case of eating chullin betaharah is more bein adam lamaqom... When it comes to pas palter during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah, are saying that for AYT we make a point of supporting other Jews, even if our bread may be a little pricier or not as tasty as the rest of the year. More a bein adam lachaveiro practice. GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger Mussar is like oil put in water, http://www.aishdas.org/asp eventually it will rise to the top. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yisrael Salanter - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:27:05 2019 From: simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:27:05 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut In-Reply-To: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> References: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:54 PM Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: > https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 > > It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The > author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and > the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. Powerful indeed, one of the high points of the RH liturgy. By the way, the London S&P mahzor and the Keter Shem Tov, both attribute it to R. Yehuda Halevi. From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:47:59 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice Message-ID: Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the current practice? GT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:51:42 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes Message-ID: Excerpt Recent correspondence: > Sholom u'vracha, > I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It > strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly > fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two > different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av > practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other > seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts. > How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz" [ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb] I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather 1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion) GT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 07:23:52 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population Message-ID: <20191010142352.GA31063@aishdas.org> One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers. This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as "clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os. Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole 6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the time the Kenaanim get to the scene.... See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel or numberous other links. They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 10 09:48:15 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 11:48:15 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these > activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? > A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom > Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical > instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies. Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments if they break while playing. It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another to continue these peripheral extensions. > On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived > the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen > Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason > presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing > and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning > a musical instrument. And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah. Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e. that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording. How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres, or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres. That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites "acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah would be equally exempt. And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments themselves. The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the first place. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: >That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod >haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites >"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a >waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah >would be equally exempt. ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3 and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY. For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 12:58:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted... ... > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the 9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians. Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3. There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to be about until at least 400 years after Chazal. In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah. Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique nighttime reading. Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat. It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside from it being minag, not din, anyway.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:59:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: > > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. > >But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of >minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is D'Rabbonon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 13:18:53 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > D'Rabbonon. Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level because of the act, not because of the date. Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 13:41:35 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22.7A.01711.4D99F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:18 PM 10/10/2019, you wrote: >Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? If I were in EY on SA I would not dance. (Truth of the matter is that I do not dance on ST anymore, given my broken Patella.) It does seem strange to me to have Yizkor and dancing on the same day. If you read Ya'ari's sefer you will see that the ARI danced on Motzoei SA and not on SA itself. He did not dance on SA itself in EY. However, in a sefer that describes him dancing it says mistakenly that he danced and encouraged others to do the same on the night of SA. This is not true. I note that in EY there are big celebrations on the night after SA with music to accompany the dancing with the Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Oct 10 14:18:40 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> On 10/10/19 4:47 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice > changed from allowing the body to decay and then ?burying? the bones, to > the current practice? > GT As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for farming became less important. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 06:21:52 2019 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > > D'Rabbonon. > > Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? > I believe that doing so would be a great Tikkun. The heter "lichvod haTorah" doesn't convince me at all: all the dancing and singing and drinking and shmoozing *while the Torah is being read* seem to me the opposite of kavod. Ditto the practice of calling up everybody in the shul, which is not even a halachic requirement. I only wish I could find a minyan that agrees with me on these points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Oct 13 06:03:10 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> Message-ID: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Sun Oct 13 07:21:13 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] suffering/inui Message-ID: I'm looking into whether increased inui/suffering is ever something to seek (or at least not avoid). Besides yom kippur and other fasts are there other possible applications? I've heard some say childbirth -any sources? Any others? Gt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandels at ou.org Sun Oct 13 07:01:43 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail>, Message-ID: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. --- Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On October 13, 2019 at 9:03:19 AM EDT, Prof. L. Levine wrote: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. Legal Disclaimer The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:38:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions: 1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods? Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum? 2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter? Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to be a staple also? Why be lenient? I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur. << Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of thought. >> If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as a snack, and not as a meal. In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas Palter. So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to consider PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:38:38 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mimetics Message-ID: https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/ > "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted > great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on > Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of > legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt > an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this > persuasion conduct herself?" Optimal? Mimetics be darned! Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:35:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? Message-ID: Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community norms...)] Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From chidekel at mail.gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:50:54 2019 From: chidekel at mail.gmail.com (Meir Shinnar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret Message-ID: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Seth Mandel > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers > (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent > of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were > known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. Meir Shinnar From mandels at ou.org Wed Oct 16 14:15:42 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:15:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it. From: Meir Shinnar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM > It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik > ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just > some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret > (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, > even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures > I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l > said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken, and he was much more than a "fellow traveler." But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases lahalokho. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel Rabbinic Coordinator The Orthodox Union Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels at ou.org From hanktopas at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:42:41 2019 From: hanktopas at gmail.com (Henry Topas) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: Mo'ed Tov: I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this structure has been instituted? Is it different in nuschaot other than Ashkenaz? Shkoyech and a Git'n Kvitel, HT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:00:21 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:15:42PM +0000, Mandel, R/Dr Seth responded to R/Dr Meir Shinar: >> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l >> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. > As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great > talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that > he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that > are against established halokho... Not my experience at all. He does work hard to find justifications for things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, not the practices of Chassidim. On the subject of Litvaks who considered the AhS one of their own: Add the early RMF, who wrote in vol 1 that the AhS was poseiq acharon, only to switch to saying so of the MB in a later volume. (My guess is that when R Moshe saw that lemaaseh the MB was being followed over the Ahs in nearly all quarters, he stopped holding out.) Also, R' Dovid Lifshitz and R' S Yaakov Weinberg both told their talmidim to turn to the AhS. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but by rubbing one stone against another, Author: Widen Your Tent sparks of fire emerge. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:14:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> Message-ID: <20191017211443.GA16981@aishdas.org> On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 02:01:43PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote: > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers ... True. But the Minchas Elazar's validation of the practice is so cute I just need to share it. (It's been a few years since the last time.) The gemara writes (47a): meisiv ha yasvei, berukhi lo mevorkhei Rav Huna bar Bizna and all the gedolei hador "sitting they would sit, but the berakhah they didn't bless". The Muncaczer wonder about the double language. Why wouldn't the gemara just say "ha yasvei velo mvorkhei"? So he suggests that the gemara is to be read as bitmiya: "Do you think sitting they would sit when the berakhah they couldn't bless?!" As I said, cute. Totally unconvincing to this Litvak, but I admit the creativity. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From zev at sero.name Fri Oct 18 07:41:57 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:41:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c715c42-4f5f-8013-d89a-fd77762fcb25@sero.name> On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Davening isn't structured with kaddish opportunities in mind. On the contrary, kaddish is an afterthought, tacked on to the bits before and after the main event. Since on Yom Kippur we (at least in principle) go right through the day there's no need to conclude each tefilla with ketoret and/or Aleinu, and thus no opportunity for kaddish afterwards. I davened at a Sefaradi minyan, where things were different. First, after musaf there was Ketoret/Ledavid Mizmor/Ledavid Ori, followed by a kaddish (though surprisingly it was not Al Yisrael), and then Alenu followed by chatzi kaddish. After mincha there was a perek of tehilim and alenu, each followed by kaddish. There was nothing after ne'ilah, but there was a kaddish after each of the sifrei torah in the morning. In addition, as is my custom, I learned Kelim 24 and Mikvaot 7 before musaf and again before mincha and concluded them after those tefilot, with Kadish Al Yisrael. I seem to recall there was also something learned during the 40-minute break before mincha, followed by kaddish Al Yisrael, but my memory is a bit hazy. (I do remember that mishnayot Yoma was learned after maariv, followed by kaddish.) If you had been at an L shul, your kaddish opportunities would have been as follows: After musaf there would be tehillim and mishnayos; after mincha there would be Ledavid Ori; and after neilah there would be Ketores, tehillim, and mishnayos; each followed by kaddish, plus one on the first sefer torah in the morning. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mandels at ou.org Fri Oct 18 08:13:10 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> , <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> Message-ID: From: Micha Berger Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:00 PM > Not my experience at all. [AhS] does work hard to find justifications for > things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me > tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos > do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, > not the practices of Chassidim. He works hard to find bases for minhogim of many groups. His defense of the chasidic customs that violate halokho, however seems to notable, because he does it for all of the three or four cases that are directly against all the poskim. I am not enough of an expert to evaluate whether it is egregiously different than his defense of other minhogim. But it is fairly well known that he became a great admirer of the Tzemach Tzedek after he first met him. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel From micha at aishdas.org Sat Oct 19 18:57:01 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Barukh Dayan haEmes - Rabbanit Shoshana Boublil In-Reply-To: <10375da9-e283-47e9-ae6d-25316c491142@Michas-iPad> Message-ID: <39cbf7cd-2d3e-48d7-b363-268c0ac5baf2@Michas-iPad> I regret having to share the news that Rt Shoshana Boublil has lost her battle against cancer. The levayah will be tomorrow at 12:30 Bet Olamin haYarqon, Shaar Ge?ulah Her family will be sitting shiv?ah at her home. The address was sent to Areivim. I would say more, but I have no idea how the laws of hespedim on ch?m apply to this situation. -Micha > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isaac at balb.in Sun Oct 20 00:33:15 2019 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini At erect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7F7B49-E256-4064-B391-46540CA77860@balb.in> From: "Mandel, Seth" One must also bear in mind that apart from his friendship and esteem for the Tzemach Tzedek (Agav, The Beis HaLevi also sent Shaylos to the Tzemach Tzedek) one needs to remember that he was Rav in a town populated by Lubavitcher Chassidim as I noted here https://pitputim.me/2016/11/14/what-should-we-be-doing-during-the-lifting-of-the-torah-part-4/ In respect of Hagba and how that is done. _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik Z"L From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:28:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Time for dinner on Shmini Atzeres Message-ID: Regarding the late afternoon of Hoshana Raba in Chutz Laaretz, Mishneh Brura 668:7 writes: <<< The Acharonim conclude that one should not eat in the evening until dark. However, b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi, he should *not* say Leshev Basukkah, because he already accepted Shmini Atzeres in davening and in kiddush. >>> >From this, it seems that the MB has no problem beginning Shmini Atzeres early, with davening and/or kiddush, his only problem is with eating. He explains this more deeply in Shaar Hatziuy 668:12: <<< The reason is because it is still part of the seventh day, and he is obligated by the Torah to eat in the sukkah. How can he eat without daying Leshev Basukkah?!?!? But to say Leshev Basukkah is not possible, because it would be a contradiction, because in davening and kiddush, he declared it to be Shmini Atzeres! >>> Writing in chutz laaretz, the MB clearly presumes that this person *is* in the sukkah, and the only problem is the bracha. I don't understand why the bracha is such a big deal. What's wrong with simply omitting the Layshev? Let's phrase it this way: This person has two choices: (A) At this time, during which there might be a Torah obligation to eat in the sukkah, he can eat in the sukkah without the Birkas Hamitzvah. (B) Because of the uncertainty about saying the bracha, he should avoid eating in the sukkah entirely, until this uncertain time ends. - It seems clear to me that it would be far preferable to choose A and thereby possibly do a mitzvah d'Oraisa albeit without a bracha, rather than just sit around squandering that opportunity. Why am I wrong? What did I miss? (By the way, please note the MB's words "b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi". I am curious what he would advise for a person who said Kiddush and washed Netilas Yadayim, but did NOT say Hamotzi yet. Shaar Hatziyun 668:13 (near end) is lenient for the last quarter-hour before dark, but what if it were earlier? Would he really tell a person not to eat yet?) None of the above would apply in Eretz Yisrael, where there are real problems with eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, even without a bracha. Similarly, in Eretz Yisrael it's not possible to eat in the house until dark, because of the safek chiyuv d'Oraisa. But my next question, I think, is equally valid in Israel and Chu"l: Suppose it is raining on Hoshana Raba afternoon - wither in Eretz Yisrael or not - and the rain is expected to continue into the night, and he is therefore planning to eat indoors. Is there any reason to delay dinner? The MB has no problem with davening or kiddush early, and there is no question of saying Leshev. So why not? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Oct 22 18:11:18 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:11:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon Message-ID: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, then how was it he ate of the tree? Does that mean that Chava already had the yetzer hara? And if not, why would she even have been tempted. With only the yezter tov, they would be like the malachim. [Email #2. -micha] In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash able to speak and cause them to sin? From arie.folger at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:42:01 2019 From: arie.folger at gmail.com (Arie Folger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Reb Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Reb Zev Zero gave an important part of the answer. But I want to take this opportunity to express my astonishment that not more people are realizing that the lack of 'Alenu after Mussaf isn't a minhag of Yom Kippur, but a result of the original minhag, still practiced in Yekki communities, that Alenu is not recited between two tefillot that follow immediately after one another. I.e. when saying Ma'ariv immediately after Minchah, no 'Alenu is said after Minchah, or, when Minchah is said immediately after Mussaf. In many shuls, there is no break between Mussaf and Minchah (actually, no break on Yom Kippur, period), which is why there is no 'Alenu. Since most shuls, however, introduced a break between Mussaf and Minchah, it stands to reason that we should say 'Alenu and Kaddish. -- Arie Folger, Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 23 08:13:37 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] blessings Message-ID: Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 13:10:06 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] blessings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191023201006.GB20617@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:13:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should > be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because > brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) I think the former, looking at the phrase in context in the gemara. R Elazar quoting R Chanina continues (Megillah 15a): ... For two gedolei hador were blessed by two hedyotos and they were fulfilled. And they [the gedolim] are David (Shemu'el 2 24:23) and Daniyel (6:17).... And then he continues about qelelas hedyot, with Avimelekh cursing Sarah (Bereishis 20:16) causing Yitzchaq's blindness as an example. Aside from the indications from the examples... Why would R' Chanina advise us to increase the chance of a qelalah working by believing in it? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is a stage and we are the actors, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but only some of us have the script. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Menachem Nissel - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 14:43:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of the Universe. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:32:03 +0000 Subject: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis ... GOOD MORNING! How old is the universe? 13.8 billion years or 6,000 years? Did Creation take place in 6 twenty-four hour days or were they longer? This week I bring to you a fascinating approach from a fascinating man. Daniel Friedmann holds a master's degree in engineering physics and is the Chairman of Carbon Engineering, a company dedicated to removing co2 from the air to solve climate change and ex-CEO of the Canadian company that made the robotic arm for the Space Shuttle. He lays out his research in his book, The Biblical Clock. Why did Mr. Friedmann start investigating the connection between the Torah's story of Creation and the scientific timeline? The Talmudic sages teach that 'God looked into the Torah and created the world" (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. 1:2). Mr. Friedmann concluded that if the Torah is the blueprint of the universe, then the Torah account of creation and scientific account of the age of the Universe must coincide. About 700 years ago Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the assertion that time -- while God was creating and man had not yet appeared -- was different than time as we keep today. Mr. Friedmann, based on this insight and on classical sources, aligns the dates of key events as described in Genesis 1 and 2 with those derived from scientific theory and observation. How? One Creation Day = 1,000 x 365.25 x 7,000 = 2.56 billion years. The factor of 1,000 comes directly from Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day" -- where we learn that one day for God equals 1,000 human years. The 365.25 number is simply a conversion from days to years (being the number of days in a year). The factor of 7,000 relates to cosmic cycles. The Talmud, (Sanhedrin 97a), which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." Various Kabbalistic works, dating back to the first century, write that there are 7 cosmic cycles of 7000 thousand years (analogous to the sabbatical cycles). The factor of 7000 relates to these cycles. (This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs). The Torah provides a detailed timeline of the creation events. Genesis describes the timeline for the formation of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Each event is provided in sequence with a time of occurrence. For example, we are told that the sun was completed at the end of Day 4, that life first appeared in the oceans at the beginning of Day 5, and that the animals were made in Day 6; careful examination of the Genesis text reveals about 20 separate creation events. Much of the information in Genesis is further detailed in the Oral Torah to reveal a more accurate timeline of events. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b) provides the detailed account of Day 6, hour-by-hour: "The day consisted of twelve hours. In the first hour, his (Adam's) dust was gathered... in the fifth, he arose and stood on his feet; in the sixth, he gave (the animals) their names; in the seventh, Eve became his mate; in the eighth, they ascended to bed as two and descended as four (i.e., Cain and Abel are born); in the ninth he entered the Garden of Eden and he was commanded not to eat of the tree; in the tenth, he sinned; in the eleventh, he was tried; and in the twelfth, he was expelled (from Eden)..." Mr. Friedmann then calculates that the Age of the universe from the start of Day 1 to today: exactly 13.74 billion years, coinciding with the latest scientific measurements. Beginnings of life: from first thing on Day 5 ("let the waters teem" Gen. 1:20) to today corresponds to 3.52 billion years which is in agreement with the scientific time for "universal ancestor" -- the single cell. Plant life (on the land): from hours 6 to 9 on Day 6 until today ("God planted a garden... and there He placed the man... And God caused to sprout from the ground every tree" Gen. 2:8, 9) corresponds to 426-106 million years ago which he reports is in agreement with the fossil record. The Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science.... ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Daniel Friedmann Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:38 PM Micha Berger wrote: > Isn't this the a minor variant on what R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote in 1979 in > "The Age of the Universe - A Torah-True Perspective"? > http://nleresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/the_age_of_the_universe___a_torah_true_perspective.pdf > If so, you might want to see R' Ari Kahn's obections in Explorations, which > he excerpted on the Avodah email list at > http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n080.html Hi thank you, no this is different from Rabbi Kaplan's work as detailed in my book. RK had the cycles of 7000 occurring before day 1 this was not in accordance with the Arizal. In the approach here the 7000 is for each creation day based on commentary on Etz Hayim This provides an age of the universe of 13.74 vs 15 billion and allows calculation of another 17 events All but one match scientific measurement. Sorry for the short answer .... From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:12:17 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:12:17 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Which gate did they use to go into the azara when bringing the korban pesach? Message-ID: It is clear that they used shaar nikanor but the question is did they use the other gates of the azara as well? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:31:49 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 06:31:49 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Oct 25 07:14:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191025141420.GE25728@aishdas.org> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 06:31:49AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get > 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly > changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up > with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? This is a problem with concordism in general. Look at how well the Rambam held up. However, if you believe there is only one emes, and aren't ready to simply dismiss or ignore whatever evidence we do have, then you would feel there is a duty to keep on finding convergence. Not in the tenor of "science finally caught up to Torah", more "see, the two needn't contradict; you don't have to choose." :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but when a prophet dies, his influence is just Author: Widen Your Tent beginning. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Soren Kierkegaard From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Oct 27 05:14:25 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Noach Message-ID: <562504E5-2AC5-4CBA-BD30-59C27C348441@cox.net> In Parshat Noach, Ch.8 verse 2, the word "vayikalei" (and the rain from heaven was restrained) appears only twice in the entire Bible. The only other place it occurs is in Parshat Vayakhel where Moses commanded the Jews to contribute materials for the building of the Tabernacle. The Jews responded with such energy that Moses soon had more than enough material and he had to tell the people to cease. (We should be so lucky today). The people dutifully complied, as the Torah records: "And the people were restrained from bringing" (Exodus 36:6). The Baal HaTurim who pointed out the rare occurrence of this word says that this connection reminds us that when God rains down His blessings, people increase their level of tzedakah. But when the rain stops, so does their generosity. (Actually, I would have thought it was just the opposite because if God did not rain down his blessings, people would be afraid that they've sinned and therefore would increase their level of tzedakah. But as soon as the blessings rain down, people in their prosperity forget others and are less generous. I would tend to think it really depends upon the person, etc.). From ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:06:53 2019 From: ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> References: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2019, 5:43 PM, at 5:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote: >The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had >when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of >the Universe. https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/aryeh-kaplan-on-evolution-a-missing-chapter-of-the-handbook-of-jewish-thought/ I don't like the Schroederian take on Evolution, but, regardless, a major discovery. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:46:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in certain cases). So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:33:32 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon In-Reply-To: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> References: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191031023332.GE14724@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 09:11:18PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil > inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, > then how was it he ate of the tree? ... The Rambam (MN 1:1-2) says that until the sin, Adam and Chavah's challenge was to decide between truth and falsehood. And the snake provided the falsehood that they fell for. Potentially along the same lines, R' Dessler says that until the sin the yeitzer hara was externalized in the form of the nachash. The sin caused the internalization of desire. Which also depends on someone who only wants to do Hashem's Will falling for the arguments of the externalized yh"r. > In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also > called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, > because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the > question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply > the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash > able to speak and cause them to sin? First, I think the "ruach memalela" of Unqelus that Rashi is referring to is not the power to speak, but having an internal monolog. The ability to "hear" one's thoughts is a critical part of assessing what one's thinking and a necessary element of free will. Which would explain why Koko the gorilla's (et al) skill at learning sign language doesn't pose a question about kinds of soul. (And could be why they didn't *invent* language.) Pre-fruit, this world and the olam ha'emes hadn't yet split into two. (R Kook) So Adam could have encountered the snake in a non-physical way. The nachash might not even be the physical snake, but the satan who was riding him (is that the Zohar or only Ben Sira?), or the angel in charge of snakes. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:04:56 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:04:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 15 Av In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031020456.GA14724@aishdas.org> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 02:09:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: >> And further ... if a woman converts for marriage, and the >> marriage is assur, is there any way to say the conversion was >> valid? I mean, there are pretty loose definitions of qabbalas >> ol malkhus Shamayim compared to what a beis din would hope for. >> But converting for the sake of being able to do an issur??? > These are great questions, and their answers are far above my level. But > I'll say this: It is not at all unusual to come across a gemara that says, > "You're not allowed to convert in this manner, but if you did, then it is > valid." And some of those leniencies raise the exact question that RMB is > asking, because if the gerus was done is a forbidden manner, where is the > qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim? There is a significant break in the parallel you're proposing. Someone whose geirus was done wrongly but kosher bedi'eved was converted by a beis din who did something wrong. It doesn't necessarily disprove the geir's qabbalas ol mitzvos, because (1) they're relying on people who are comparatively subject matter experts, not acting on their own; and (2) they aren't necessarily converting for the sake of being able to sin. And if (3) it's about wondering about the convert's QOM vs ulterier motive (like the Rambam's discussion of Shimshon's and Shelomo haMelekh's wifes), the convert him/herself isn't wondering. Here, you have someone converting just for the purpose of sinning. It isn't about the conversion, where the ball or sin is in the beis din't court. (It doesn't involve any questions of the kashrus of the geirus being valid by circular or paradoxical reasoning -- the sin doesn't have the self-reference nature of being in the conversion itself.) > By the way, where did they find a Beis Din in Moav? Yes, that was a > rhetorical question, intended to point out that if Rus and Orpah did have a > valid conversion at the beginning of the story, the procedure must have > involved some pretty serious leniencies. Well, if two famous people went to where there was food, out of the whole Jewish and Israelish peoples, there must have been at least 3 others. That doesn't surprise me. > Hmmm... Actually, if Rus converted at the end of the story, that is pretty > problematic too, because even if there isn't any "conversion for the sake > of marriage" to worry about, the Beis Din is even more surprising. (Someone > *might* make a case that two brothers could be a Beis Din for gerus, but > when Naami and Rus were alone they didn't have any Jewish men around at Or again, anonymous and unmentioned bit players. Who said they were all alone on the road? Maybe the road was better traveled than that? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:13:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] guessing at history? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031021308.GB14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 08:16:45AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I recently heard a shiur where the presenter described the "bad > scholarship" of the Torah Tmimah when offering the "misread abbreviation" > explanation (e.g. v'hazmanim really means fill in the holiday name). I > thought it a bit unkind since ISTM the guessing about the historical > circumstances of practices is what poskim do all the time (e.g. why some > women have a minhag not doing mlacha on rosh chodesh) I noticed that his father also gets very creative. The difference is, the Arukh haShulchan's creative sevaros are always to try to figure out how halakhah as practiced could have emerged from the texts. The TT doesn't have that limitation. But saying he was wrong doesn't need to be a value judgment. For example, his theory that saying "Migdol" in (after?) bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov came from someone confusing "B"Sh" for "BeShemu'el B" with "BeShabbos" is provably wrong. The Avudraham refers to the custom, and yet predates the Christian publishing of Shemuel in two volumes. Does that make the TT morally wrong for trying his best? Or intellectually dishonest when he clearly warns you he is theorizing? It is not unlike rabbanim who make other historical guess in the fact that he too gueses. What is different is that most don't have as high of a miss rate. Which means that you should buy into these theories with a lot of caution and independent research. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:15:16 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> References: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> Message-ID: <20191031021516.GC14724@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 05:18:40PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky > country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never > existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for > farming became less important. Also, when people were eating al taharas qodesh and otherwise were keeping all those halakhos seriously, there was a stronger drive to keep as much of Eretz Yisrael tahor as possible. In addition to pragmatic reasons to save real estate. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself, http://www.aishdas.org/asp "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now, Author: Widen Your Tent at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:20:03 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031022003.GD14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:35:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the > deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh > (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community > norms...)] How can it be? It's not like the chiyuv for the amud is really a chiyuv. Even qaddish is minhag -- and he could say that without taking the amud. For example, they say that R' Yisrael Salanter held that giving the amud to the other aveil is a better zekhus for the niftar than taking it yourself. I think that the main reason why culture so emphasizes this one ritual for aveilus is because of the number of people for which a year of going to shul regularly is the start of taking minyan more seriously for the rest of their lives. So, if we find other ways to encourage shul attendance (Qaddish is still an issue), even that motive is addressed. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a http://www.aishdas.org/asp person is to remain asleep and untamed." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 30 22:02:59 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/19 7:46 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn?t find it) although I?m guessing it?s based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty ? at least in > certain cases). It is indeed based on that. > So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei > mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is > kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] Bread is different, because the gemara specifies bread, and yes, crumbs smaller than a kezayit are beteilim and may be thrown out. AIUI one may deliberately break up a large piece into pieces smaller than a kezayit in order to throw them out. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 31 08:49:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031154951.GA2681@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in > certain cases).... The AhS OC 180:4 says that the worry about crumbs had to do with the Roman shulchan, which was a small one-person thing. And if you permitted the staff to take the table out without gathering the crumbs, they would likely do so even with bigger-than-kezayis pieces. (He even mentions a discussion in the gemara that allows hiring an am ha'aretz as a shamah.) But we today don't take the table out when not eating. (Which is why we need a ke'ara to remove or cover and then restore, as appropriate, at the seder.) The AhS says the problem is that people who wash before bread will disgracefully treat the bread on the floor from previous meals. The MB s"q 10 records a chumerah of not throwing out crumbs that total a kezayis. And, in accordance with the AhS's description of the motive, warns you not to walk on any bread crumbs. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless http://www.aishdas.org/asp he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness. Author: Widen Your Tent Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From penkap at panix.com Tue Nov 5 08:26:36 2019 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: <9D1EF0D1-F323-470E-AC49-C21245FA8691@panix.com> ?Re the discussion about a particular parnassa segula having to do with the disposal of bread, I always thought the best such segula was to get a good education and/or learn a trade. Doesn?t always work, I know, but no segula always works. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:00 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechilla Message-ID: An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:58 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:26 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:42:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Al tochlu mimenu na Message-ID: On the Mesorah list, we are having a discussion about the word "na" (nun-aleph), which often seems to mean "now" or "please". It was also compared to some other synonyms. I interjected that "na" also appears in Shemos 12:9 with an entirely different meaning, "undercooked". R' Zev Sero showed how this meaning is *not* so different after all: > Al tochlu mimenu na means "as it is now", uncooked. > Think "bistro", or "fast food". The fastest food is raw. It is a common error to think that "na" means "raw" here. Rashi on the pasuk defines "na" as "She'eino tzalui kol tzorko - It's not roasted all it needs" Rashi requires the Korban Pesach to be fully roasted, and it seems that even Maachal Ben Drusa'i would count as "na". Similarly, Torah Temimah there (#73 and #81) says that one who eats a Korban Pesach raw ("chai" is his word) has *not* violated this pasuk. (But he did fail to eat it roasted as required.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:06 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") Message-ID: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? The underlying motif of washing hands is ritual purification, similar to immersion in a mikve. The rabbinical decree to wash hands before meals is based on the purification the Kohanim underwent before eating their teruma offerings. The Talmud, however, gives a rather odd rationale for "mayim acharonim", washing hands after the meal. The Sages explained that this washing removes the salt of Sodom, a dangerous salt that can blind the eyes. [Chulin 105b] What is this Sodomite salt? What does it have to do with purification? How does it blind the eyes? Rav Kook explained that to answer to these questions we must understand the basis for the immorality of Sodom. The people of Sodom were obsessed with fulfilling their physical desires. Their concentration on self-gratification led to selfish, egocentric behavior. They expended all of their efforts chasing after material pleasures. No energy was left for helping the stranger; no time remained for kindness towards others. Eating a meal obviously involves sensual pleasure. The rabbis feared that since we eat several times every day, the importance of spirituality that truly perfects man can be decreased. As a preventive measure, the Sages decreed that we wash our hands before eating. This ritual impresses upon us the imagery that we are like the Kohanim, eating "holy" bread baked from teruma. The physical meal we are about to partake now assumes a spiritual dimension. Despite this preparation, the act of eating may to some extent reduce our holiness. Therefore, washing after the meal comes to counteract this negative influence. We wash away the salt of Sodom, the residue of selfish preoccupation in sensual pleasures. This dangerous salt, which can blind our eyes to the needs of others, is rendered harmless through the purification of "mayim acharonim". [Ayn Aya I:21] Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there. Bonnie Raitt Physical strength can never permanently withstand the impact of spiritual force. F.D.R. From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Nov 11 05:06:41 2019 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: <008601d59890$dc8ba6f0$95a2f4d0$@touchlogic.com> From: "Rich, Joel" ...Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? Many years ago (after reading the section in R Dessler on dreams) I had the same question. At the time, I asked R Wolbe z'l how much time/effort I s put into interpreting my dreams. He told me that when he was younger, he had a reoccurring dream and he went to the Chazon Ish to ask its significance and what he should do. He told me that the CI told him that today we not on the madregah that Hashem sends us msgs thru our dreams, and that he should ignore it. Mordechai Cohen From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:57:24 2019 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:57:24 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechila In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)?' Isn't that the same question as why we have the aseres ymei teshuva after RH, not before? After all, the purpose of asking mechila is that we can't have mechila or kapara on mitzvos bein adam l'makom until we've had mechila from those we've trespassed against (with apologies to external liturgy). So the minhag haolam re mechila and the teshuva of aseres ymei teshuva are all part of the same process and issue. The question of why the order of of RH/AYT/YK is what it is has been asked and has a number of approaches. But your question seems just part of that bigger question. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Nov 12 06:00:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Being Sekptical About Skepticism Message-ID: <20191112140022.GA6783@aishdas.org> From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/when-atheists-stole-the-moral-high-ground/ > The Spectator > Nick Spencer > 9 November 2019 > When atheists stole the moral high ground ... > Most of us like to believe that we believe what we believe because > rigorous reasoning and reliable evidence have led us there. Most of us > are wrong. It isn't that reason and evidence play no role in our religion > or lack of it; rather that they are saturated with deeper emotional, > social and practical concerns. As Julian Barnes writes in The Sense of > an Ending: 'Most of us... make an instinctive decision, then build up an > infrastructure of reasoning to justify it.' Du Perron was no doubt very > devout. Today he may well have been devoutly sceptical. But in neither > case is he likely to have been led to his dis/belief through reason alone. > That the emotions matter is well established in the case of religious > belief, as Stephen T. Asma's fine recent study Why We Need Religion > explains. But it is less well recognised when it comes to unbelief, and > particularly the history of unbelief. Here we are still wedded to the > romantic fable of fearless sceptics hacking their way through obscurantist > bigotry, armed with nothing more than their trusty sword of reason. See epigram in signature. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:37:18 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha Message-ID: Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:39:28 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah Message-ID: The chavot yair (252) was asked by a talmid chacham (TC) about the following circumstances: The TC's cousin vowed to provide the TC with weekly wine for Kiddush. The TC would rather use his own wine as he doesn't want to have a freebie with which to do a mitzvah (see Samuel 2.24:24) He fears however it would be stealing to use the provided wine as the cousin would not have given it to him if he knew he wasn't using it for Kiddush. The chavot yair provides a detailed analysis of whether such a condition is truly binding [the whole less than 100% free and clear sale topic is an interesting one - is it not a sale if the condition isn't met or is there a separate obligation] What caught my eye however was his endorsement of the TC's preference to pay for his own kiddush even if the wine wasn't as good! It's not based on the passage from Samuel [I suspect since that case was a purchase from a non-ben brit) but rather because "tfei hiddur v'dikduk mitzvah havi im koneh ladavar mkiso dlo havi msitca d'chinam dmistra milta yesh lanu od rayah mhazohar" it's more of a beautification and scrupulousness in mitzvoth if he buys it himself so it's not free and even though this is clearly logical, we have a proof from the zohar.] My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). My meta guess would've been soneih matanot yichyeh (it's better not to take gifts) but that would require not taking the donated wine at all - which didn't seem up for grabs. Any thoughts other than behavioral economics? (we value our own things more) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:07:29 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") In-Reply-To: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> References: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191118190729.GA14270@aishdas.org> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 09:50:06AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg relayed the following piece from Gold from the Land of Israel, R' Chanan Morrison, adapted from Ein Eyah vol 1 pg. 21: > The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom > and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one > should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? But does it have anything directly to do with the city's evil or its destruction? One would be tempted to say yes, because Lot's wife *looked* back at the Cities of the Plains and was turned to salt. And the thread of melach sedomis is to ones eyesight, of all things. But this is a reference to getting an actual salt that they were using alongside normal table salt (sodium chloride) into one's eyes. There is no need to take this out of the realm of physical danger. Salt extrated from the flats in the area has far more adulteration with potassium chloride than anything we would consume today. (In fact, the modern town of Sedom was built specifically for potash [a mix of potassium compounds, mostly potassium carbonate] works.) So it makes sense in mundane terms -- potassium chloside is a moderate eye irritant, and sites also warn about abrasion in the eye as well. And in fact, to make malach sodomis more symbolic would complicate the Ashkenazi neglect of mayim achronim. We don't wash because the salt isn't used. If the salt were symbolic of Sedom and thus hand-washing more in the territory of impurity, we would need to prove that the lack of using the salt sufficiently weakens the symbolism to allow neglecting the ruling. (Back when RRW was on-list, I noted that the Ashk - Seph split on this backed up a theory he repeated here. According to Prof Agus, Ta Shma and others [not R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik], because many more Ashkneazim came ultimately from EY, rather than the more predominantly Bavli origins of Sepharadim, we can find a number of minhagei Ashk and liturgical elements sources in the Y-mi or Midrashei Halakhah even when against the Bavli. The Bavli gives two reasons for mayim achronim -- a comparison to watchin before the meal, and thus about taharah, and melach sedomis. The Y-mi only mneitons melach sedomis. Which would explain why Ashk feel free not to wash when no such salt is served, but Seph do not.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes http://www.aishdas.org/asp exactly the right measure of himself, and Author: Widen Your Tent holds a just balance between what he can - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:16:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118191623.GB14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:37:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the > period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) The Be'er Heitev says that for men it's only until one counts. Looks like the usual "don't do your own thing you might forget to do the mitzvah" taqanah (but in minhag form). The AhS (s' 9) "vegam `atah yeish nashim" who keep this minhag. But the minhag was ONLY accepted by women and ONLY until sefirah after maariv. What "after maariv" meant for single women in towns where there multiple times for maariv is beyond me. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:29:25 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118192925.GC14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:39:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in > the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the > better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure > additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). I can't answer your "in addition", but in general. One Shabbos haGadol derashah R Menachem Zupnik included the idea that it is better to use wine you bought for the four kosos than wine you got for free (for example, in "shalachmanos"). The idea is that this is actually the finer wine, regardless of the taste of the two wines. And therefore, Ashkenazim would choose white wine they bought over red wine they were given. Whereas Sepharadim prioritize color over taste preference, and therefore over this too. Perhaps it's an issue of "Adam rozeh beqav shelo mitish'ah qavim shel chaveiro." (R Kahana, BM 38a) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 19 15:40:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: <35B73FAF-B266-4A97-980D-07F0F8014233@sibson.com> If one (or a whole community)normally eats sliced apple as part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 04:55:11 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as > part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make > a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for ritual purposes. My understanding is that this is exactly why we are told to have the maror in mind when we say haadamah on the karpas. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Nov 20 13:31:40 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191120213140.GQ29112@aishdas.org> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:55:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > R' Joel Rich asked: >> If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as >> part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make >> a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? > You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a > non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for > ritual purposes. To rephased RAM's answer in the terms I was planning to use... (Just because to the way I think, I find the first sentence below a clear summary.) Whether or not a food it part of the meal has little to do with the kind of food, and more with why it is being eaten. Yes, there are rules of thumb. Like assuming fruit during the meal wasn't really as part of the meal - which RJR's example of waldorf salad violates. Just as RAM's (deleted) example of maror defies the norms for why we eat vegetables during the meal. And is a close parallel to the minhag of eating an apple as part of a siman milsa. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 21 08:43:28 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion Message-ID: Please see the article at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5213 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Interestingly, overnight peeled eggs might actually be permitted according to several authorities, as Rashi (ad loc. s.v. she?avar) when explaining the prohibition omits eggs from the criteria.Additionally, there is some debate among several later poskim about what type of peeled eggs are intended for inclusion in the prohibition - cooked eggs or raw eggs. ohr.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Nov 22 09:11:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] "Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me" (by R/Dr Hillel Goldberg) Message-ID: <20191122171120.GA24498@aishdas.org> R Hillel Goldberg wrote The Fire Within, which inspired me to explore Mussar. (And is long out of print.) Dr Hillel Goldberg's PhD thesis became the book, "Israel Salanter, text, structure, idea: the ethics and theology of an early psychologist of the unconscious". Since, RHG inhereted leadership of the Intermountain Jewish News, published in Denver. He once again inspire me week's opinion colum again inspired me, so I'm including it in full. If you like your arti https://www.ijn.com/yes-directly-moses-speaks-to-me/ :-)BBii! -Micha PS: I noticed that K'tav doesn't list that book title with what I think of as "title caps", and I see RHG didn't do so with the article's title either. If someone could explain the rules of these things to me, off list, I would appreciate it. Bcc: Dr Alan Morinis, R/Dr Hillel Goldberg (Since I didn't take the time to reach out to get permission to share their addresses. Assume I will forward them any replies.) Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me [Rabbi Dr] Hillel Goldberg Nov 21, 2019 Columns, Opinion, View from Denver More venerable than the Kaddish, older than the Haggadah, earlier than Chanukah and Purim. A sense of Jewish history connects a Jew to his roots. It can also cloud those roots. Here is what I mean. If we ask, why be Jewish, Jewish history is one answer. There are many variations on the answer, but each one draws a Jew back in time, fostering a feeling of identity with Judaism or the Jewish people. Even so, these answers rarely take us back far enough. Consider the following reasons for connecting to Jewish history: I want to keep my own family customs alive. I do not want the Holocaust to be the end of the Jewish people. I know my passion for social justice comes from Jews always being the underdog. I relish research into my own genealogy. The more I learn about my past, the more I feel connected to it and proud of it, whether I am an Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe or a Sephardi from Spain, Greece or Iraq. I get the chills when I see Israel reborn. I sit in a philosophy class and feel special pride when Maimonides is held up as a major philosopher. I study about Rabbi Akiva, Rashi and the mystics in Safed, and I know I am connected to an eternal people. In the long arc of Jewish history, all of these examples are relatively recent. They are kind of like touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and feeling connected to the American Revolution more than 240 years ago, but then thinking of standing before the Western Wall, some 2,000 years old. As in, 240 years, big deal! I do not mean to discount my feelings of awe and gratitude upon visiting Independence Hall. But compared to Jewish memory, 240 years is a blink. The thing is, we may say the same even for the 2,000 year-old Western Wall, the most powerful, emotional site in Judaism. My sense of Jewish history may cloud just how far back my roots actually stretch. Just as we may skip over the Holocaust and Maimonides and our personal genealogy to reach back so much further to the Western Wall, we may skip back further still. Take, for example, the one topic that occupies the entire, 2,711 folio-page Babylonian Talmud more than any other: "carrying," the prohibition of transferring objects from one domain to another, or of carrying objects within a public domain, on the Sabbath. For those who do not observe this prohibition, I appeal to your intellectual curiosity. Where did this come from? It originates neither with Maimonides nor in the Talmud. It is not from the ancient Holy Temples nor even from the Prophets of Israel (save one). We stretch back not to the Holocaust 75 years ago, not to Maimonides 800 years ago, not to the Western Wall 2,000 years ago, not even to the Prophet Isaiah, some 2,800 years ago. Our roots go all the way back to the first Prophet, Moses, in the Sinai desert after the Exodus. We recall the generation of the desert, of the liberated Hebrew slaves from Egypt, not just in a ritual (the seder), not just as Jewish history, and not just as abstractions ("the beginnings of the Jewish people" or "the inception of the Jewish-Divine covenantal relationship"). No, we recall Moses in the desert for something very specific that was done then and sustained throughout the generations, down to this very next Shabbos. When the Tabernacle was under construction in the desert, as G-d had commanded in the Book of Exodus, our ancestors volunteered the raw materials, the fibers, precious metals and animal skins out of which the Tabernacle was made. One fine day, on a Shabbos, Moses told the entire encampments of the Israelites: Bring no more! Why? Because on Shabbos one is not to transfer from one domain to another; specifically, from the private domain (the Israelites' homes, their tents) to the public domain, the Levite camp, where Moses was stationed and the Tabernacle was to be constructed (Shabbat 96b). Think of this. On the very next Shabbos that I welcome this year -- me, you, here, right now -- if I refrain from carrying an object out of my home, I am under the spiritual canopy of Moses himself, of my people at its very inception. I am a direct link to the Israelite sojourn in the Sinai desert and to one of the first Words embraced in practice after the revelation at Mount Sinai. I am not just connected to my roots. I am living them. Copyright (C) 2019 by the Intermountain Jewish News From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 06:35:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do beer and whiskey not require bishul Yisroel (Jewish involvement in the cooking)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha A. Bishul akum is prohibited when two conditions are met: a) the food cannot be eaten raw and b) the food is worthy of being ?oleh al shulchan melachim? (served at fancy dinners). Beer and whiskey are made from cooked grains, which are not edible in a raw state. Thus, beer and whiskey satisfy the first condition for bishul akum. Nonetheless, Tosfos (AZ 31b: s.v. V?traveihu) writes that beer is not served at fancy dinners and therefore the second requirement for bishul akum is not present. This explanation suffices for beer, but not for whisky, which is served at fancy dinners. However, Tosfos offers a second explanation why beer is exempt from bishul akum. Although beer is made from the five grains, the bracha is Shehakol and not Mezonos because beer is primarily a water-based drink. By the same token, beer does not acquire a status of bishul akum because it is primarily water. Since water is edible in a raw state, it does not require bishul Yisroel. The same rationale applies to whiskey which is a water-based drink, and as such, does not require bishul Yisroel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 15:15:56 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:15:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav Message-ID: RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did. When a friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush, the Rav began to yell at him saying that this is false. I believe this Rav thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes. However, RSRH, following the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. RSRH writes, "Yet, even if we were incapable of explaining the strange events in this story; even if we were forced to conclude as the Ramban concludes ? , 'Our father Avraham inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land, about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another sin he committed )' ? nevertheless, none of this would perplex us. The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: ?Here you have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!? It does not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust. Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: ?Look upon Me! Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!? We are never to say: ?This must be good and right, because so-and-so did it.? The Torah is not an ?anthology of good deeds.? It relates events not because they are necessarily worthy of emulation, but because they took place. Rav Hirsch's essay about the education of Yaakov and Esav may be read at Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII) There is much wisdom in this essay about education. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Nov 27 11:50:12 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:50:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a > friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav > began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav > thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following > the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to > say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From sholom at aishdas.org Thu Nov 28 06:37:50 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237da176174e2f7bc95386dc5c7b4289@aishdas.org> RZS wrote: > On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >> RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a >> friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav >> began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav >> thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following >> the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to >> say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. > > Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. And Ramban, too? And, if so, RYL made a mistake, too -- the same one that R Noson Slifkin made: "rishonim are allowed to say that, but we're not allowed to say that" ;-) Chodesh Tov, everyone. (And Hodu-Day) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 28 08:57:43 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? Message-ID: I recall being at an Agudah Convention many years ago and being served turkey on Thanksgiving Day! >From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6105 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] Thanksgiving: Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Biur HaGr?a (Yoreh Deah 178: end 7) and Gilyon Maharsha (ad loc. 1). The Gr?a is bothered by the fact that the sugya in Sanhedrin seems to imply differently than the views of the Maharik, Ran, and later, the Rema, that a Chok Goyim, even one that is not a Chok Avodah Zarah should still be prohibited. Others who ask this question and conclude tzarich iyun on the Maharik?s shittah include ... ohr.edu >From the article On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. See the above URL for much more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Nov 28 10:31:05 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a 'holiday' and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving's origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. ---------------------------------------- But they did celebrate Mother's day? Veteran's day? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 1 09:32:10 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeitzei Message-ID: <64993E05-F027-4F31-89BE-8D9D0DF924EF@cox.net> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked. Chapter 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it have to say "from his sleep?" Of course it was from his sleep. All it had to say was: "And Jacob awoke.? Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt...? Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and THEN "And he dreamt...?? So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke ?from his sleep? which is redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if that?s the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first time should just have said ?And Jacob awoke?? I propose the following possible answer: In the first instance, when he had the dream, it was really a prophetic vision and it wasn't an ordinary sleep, hence, the word sleep was omitted. However, after the dream, he slipped into a regular sleep, and therefore it says he "awoke from his sleep.? From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 1 12:04:35 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bananas are Herbs Message-ID: <20191201200432.GF19738@aishdas.org> This video explains the difference between woody plants (trees and shrubs) and herbaceous plants. Bananas are among the talles herbs. And just what is a bannana "tree"'s "trunk"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMfTkDZlFQ So, the scientific taxonomy and hilkhos berakhos agree on this one. A banana is not peri eitz. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 13:31:46 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202213146.GA29446@aishdas.org> Rav Dovid Lifshitz didn't personally eat turkey because of iffyness of saying it fits the requirement for a kosher species of bird to be backed by a mesorah. Not lekhakhah, but as a personal chumerah. And yet R Dovid celebrated Thanksgiving. (Which was a more common sentiment in the refugee generation.) But he did so with a goose dinner. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 23:35:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Thursday Night Chulent Permissible? Message-ID: <20191203073543.GA8739@aishdas.org> I would strongly dis-recommend chulent before Shabbos lunch. (Be glad I am not yours or anyone's poseiq.) Here is my argument against. The Shabbos daytime meal is supposed to be more important than Friday night's meal. One is supposed to save their favorite dishes for lunch. The gemara even mentions chamin as one such food that should be saved! So what is Thu or Fri night chulent? It is taking a food invented for the purpose of contributing to making Shabbos lunch the high point of the week's food and being too impatient to get one's treat to show proper kevod Shabbos. Rashi (Gittin 38b) says that people who make Fri night the greater meal should fear punishment! See also AhS OC 271:9, who finds what he calls a "limmud zekhus" for people who serve their most special foods Fri night -- many of them aren't as enjoyable the next morning. But he says this is why we have kugel and chulent, foods that can remain on the fire all night. After seeing what is said about not saving special food for Shabbos lunch, and chulent is designed to be that special food, and having it Friday night, al achas kamah vekamah serving it before Shabbos altogether! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From t613k at mail.aol.com Tue Dec 3 09:31:18 2019 From: t613k at mail.aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] R' Osher Katz -- Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna In-Reply-To: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130117873.1655613.1575394278828@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends and Family, I would not normally send out something so personal but my brother-in-law, R' Osher Katz, was diagnosed with cancer three months ago -- Stage 4 -- and he has not yet begun treatment, because, for complicated reasons, he has no insurance and very low income. There is treatment that offers hope of a complete remission but it is unbelievably expensive. We have tried reaching out to many Jewish and secular organizations, so far with little result. My daughter Naomi has created this campaign with The Chesed Fund to raise funds for him to begin treatment. This is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. Scholarly Rabbi Can't Afford Cancer Treatment | The Chesed Fund PS Many people give anonymously because it's a public site and they don't want their name up there, so I don't know who gives and who doesn't. If you can't afford to give don't worry, don't feel pressured but say a kapitel please for a refuah sheleimah for Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna. --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com From ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 5 11:55:02 2019 From: ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca (Ari Meir Brodsky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Tonight (Thursday evening) begin Prayer for Rain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my annual friendly reminder.... Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily prayers, beginning with Maariv tonight (Thursday evening), December 5, 2019, corresponding to the evening of 8 Kislev, 5780. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. [Sephardim replace the entire blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to Prof. Lasker for the reminder.] I encourage everyone to remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at that time. Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/veten-tal-u-matar/ (Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.) And it's been raining this evening here in Israel, thank God! Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka, -Ari Meir Brodsky --------------------- Ari M. Brodsky Teaching Fellow Department of Mathematics Bar-Ilan University Ramat-Gan 5290002 ISRAEL ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 8 07:15:44 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayishlach Brotherly Love Message-ID: <52DF2CD4-5DD1-44B6-AAEE-C16FB12F5232@cox.net> One of the most moving scenes in the entire Torah is when Esau and Jacob meet after 20 years. Chapter 33, verse 4, says: "Esau ran toward him, embraced him, fell upon his neck, and kissed him; then they wept." The Netziv points out that all the verbs in this verse are in the first person and refer to Esau. "He ran, he embraced him; hefell upon his neck, he kissed him and they cried." All the verbs are in the (third person) singular, except the last one: "theycried." Both Jacob and Esau cried?such human drama and emotion! They cried. That's the very factor that made their meeting a success. Without both feeling the emotion, neither could feel the emotion. The connection of brothers is a paradigm for the connection of nations. We need each other, and in order to laugh together, we first must cry together. The Netziv goes on to say the day will come when Esau will truly embrace his brother Jacob in honest unadulterated compassion, then both brothers will cry in happiness. May we live to see this day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 9 09:38:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Balancing Observance and the Interpersonal Message-ID: <20191209173824.GA32478@aishdas.org> By R' Eliezer Eisenberg Teaser: Havolim Thursday, December 05, 2019 Vayeitzei. Reconciling LeChaveiro with LaMakom Overview After Yaakov had a dream where he received nevuas Elokim that told him to leave Lavan, why did he seek Rachel and Leah's advice and consent about leaving? 1. Rav Gifter When your mitzva creates a burden for another person, you have to discuss it with him first. 2. The Shlah, Reb Moshe, and lhbchlch Rav Sternbuch Mitzvos should be done with the understanding that they are Hashem's gifts to us. It is wrong to do them because we have no choice, and consider them to be burdens and hardships that we have to endure. It is important to understand this ourselves, and to explain to everyone involved why the mitzva is so right and so good, in order that they should realize and appreciate that Hashem gave us the mitzva for our to'eles. 3. The Seforno per Reb Chaim Brown Yaakov wasn't asking whether to go. He assumed they would go, but was asking for advice about the best way to go - should he tell Lavan, or sneak away. 4. Abarbanel The Abarbanel says in 28:16, on the story of the Sulam, that Yaakov made the neder because he wasn't sure if his vision was a prophecy or just a dream. This was, he says, Yaakov's first experience with Nevu'ah, so, as was the case with Shmuel Hanavi, he was not sure what had happened. If so, perhaps we can say the same is true here, that Yaakov wasn't be 100% sure whether it was nevu'ah or just a dream. I don't like this approach. It was not the first time, and he certainly knew by then that it was Nevu'ah. 5. RDNJS and ENE, crystallized by a he'ara from Rav Moish Pollack. This event is a perfect example of [baderekh shehadam rotzeh leileikh molikhin oso]. It seems clear that that the tzivui of Hashem was catalyzed by Yaakov's personal choice, by Yaakov's decision to follow this particular path. That being the case, Yaakov was obligated to discuss it with the people whose entire lives were affected by his choice. I really like this explanation because of how well it fits the order of pesukim and shtims with the story of Miriam and Aharon against Moshe. Discussion ... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:45:46 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ??? ??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????: The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it) [X] THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:47:02 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:47:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered Message-ID: Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide goes out" N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. Me- it's all about the demographics G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her original drive A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with women's issues.) E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold! Me- troop levels seem dangerously low M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it? E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. Me- see comment above Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. Me- or maybe yes C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic tradition. Me- amen. As in "instant classic" Really now Israel defines our Judaism. Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this] R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. Me- I hope that's true H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. Me- Ger vtoshav? From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 11 12:37:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211203708.GE8671@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together. > [Tur YD 116] ... because it is "qasheh latzara'as". And I think the tzara'as connection is key. Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a spiritual element. > The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) > seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef > [BY OC 173] Pesachim 76b. Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the "davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as. > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since > this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition > got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo > refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it) https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38 Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M. So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam (Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From zev at sero.name Thu Dec 12 16:05:33 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 12 18:52:32 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 02:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> References: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> Message-ID: On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. ------------------------- I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Mon Dec 16 08:23:08 2019 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I agree with Joel, not so simple. A few thoughts: 1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we are not meant to follow. 2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat (which only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small fish bones, which could lead to choking. 3. Source: the actual Gemara states: Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig]. Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it bad for odor and davar acher." Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous, rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first - if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor? 4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen: https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/ While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides, this study finds that fattier meat produces more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/ 5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy (?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like condition. 6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger; therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be understood ? and taught ? as merely customary. Alexander Seinfeld >On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. >>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the >>prohibition got extended so far > >It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can >cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. >------------------------- >I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the >danger >Kt >Joel rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Dec 17 09:58:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:58:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival Message-ID: For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/ [https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish Holidays - ou.org Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ... www.ou.org This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/ YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Dec 17 14:19:31 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. He starts off with: Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept. Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to ?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal. While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*. Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to the next generation. American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog. He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Dec 18 00:52:11 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> References: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> Message-ID: He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom ______________________________________________ I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century) THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 19:03:39 2019 From: hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com (Harry Maryles) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. ... > He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO > intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr > L'Goyim. Here are my thoughts: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1 HM Sent from my iPhone, Shirley. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:27:57 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] thanksgiving Message-ID: My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back: 1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?) 2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it as such) KT from a dual citizen Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:29:26 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them out there? KT Joel Rich From acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 05:32:33 2019 From: acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com (Allen Gerstl) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud. As a part of Talmud, Science (Maasei Bereishit) and Metaphysical Philosophy (Maasei Merkavah) involves knowing the works of HKBH with the goal of doing so to become closer to Him through evoking what is ultimately deep love (Ahava) of HKBH and wanting to "partner" with him in also helping the world fulfill His will and achieving such closeness. Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have explained this many times in this treatise. God is near to all who call Him, if they call Him in truth, and turn to Him. He is found by every one who seeks Him, if he always goes towards Him, and never goes astray. ..." This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models in our history. Kol Tuv, Eliyahu Gerstl, Toronto, Canada From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 18 14:51:09 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:19:31PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > See > https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ and part 2: https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world-part-2/ I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. 1. To start with the banal... The "hedgehog" metaphor isn't just about finding your company's strength and running with it. It's also about prioritizing other things out. We use the term all the time at work. We're not writing our own low-latency networking layer because there are people who do that full time. Our hedgehog is trading systems; why waste time doing something ourside that bailiwick -- find the company for whom low latency networking is their hedgehog. So, to really use the idea here would mean to leave learning to the yeshivish, davening to chassidim, go out of kiruv since Chabad does it, and just focus on leOr Goyim. Let everyone do what they do best, and hire out the other jobs to those who do each of those jobs best. Yissachar and Zevulun, but on steroids. The idiom was misused. (Totally irrelevant; it just felt good to get that off my chest.) 2. Second, a movement is a group of people who gather around an Ism, not the other way around. You can't save Mod-O by giving them a different ideal, even one you feel is related to their current one. That's killing one movement by creating a new thing to attract its adherents. Nothing too terrible. After all, the only value in a movement is whether it generates fealty to Torah umitzvos, not as an end in itself. You can't just tell people "here's your new ideal now". (Which is basically the same as RJR's point.) That mod-O crowd would have to buy into this leOr Goyim Ism for themselves. You can't just propose it in a Lehrhaus article. Look how many decades of leadership it took RYBS to put his fingerprint on the Mod-O ideal, and even that was only in the realm of nuance about what "u" means, and what "mada" does. You expect to totally redirect the community without having a rabbi's rabbi at the helm? Then figure out how to fire up a grass roots movement. Because we are not talking about a "hedgehog", we are talking about what idea people should put front-and-center in their life's mission statement. The target here is diaspora Mod-O. This leOr Goyim wouldn't be attractive to somoene living in a Jewish State. Nor to someone who doesn't believe in a Torah-and hashkafah with its openness to participating in general society. But it's not Mod-O's current Ism in any way similar in emphasis or behavior. 3. As for Torah uMada... I wrote here a couple of times that I don't think it speaks well to the masses. First, because RYBS's vision of "mada" really only appeals to the academically inclined. Second, because his "u" is dialectical. Not too many people even know what a neo-Kantian means by dialectic. It's not a synthesis. It is not compartmentalization of two opposites. It's finding meaning in their interplay, without expecting to get to resolution. Can the masses do that with Torah uMadda? Or are the outcome inevitably going to be primarily a population of compromizers and a population of compartmentalizers? TuM thus has the rare problem that imperfect following of this ideal is actually worse than not chasing it at all. Because it gives motive to compromising one's fealty to Torah! TiDE doesn't have these problems, since DE has more to do with being a refined human being as defined by being cultured. High culture, not academic knowledge. And synthesis, not dialetic. The Tzitz Eliezer, in a festschrift for RSRH, described TiDE as a hylomorphism (a tzurah vachomer). That derekh eretz is the substance to which a person is supposed to give Torah's form. AND, TiDE includes much of what R Gil Perl writes about here. But without making it the front-and-center. The idea of Yaft Elokim leYefes veYishkon be'ohalei Sheim is not just that Sheim should benefit from Yefes's yofi, but that Sheim has the job of being the moral and spiritual voice in the partnership. But again, making that aspect of things the centerpiece of the movement would be something new. 4. In terms of defensibility... We are given the whole Torah project in order that we be a "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh". Hashem introduced maamad Har Sinai with those words. Arguably the Torah is to the Jews as the Jews are supposed to be to the world -- the means of obtaining Devar Hashem. But, aniyei irekha qodmin... How do you make a movement about bringing Hashem's values to non-Jews that doesn't invest more effort in doing the same to our fellow Jews? The dialectic (sorry!) between universalism and Jewish particularlism can't be thrown out the window. Although, Universalism is in now, Jewish particularism being too close to the lately much maligned ideal of nationalism. I am not saying the idea that the Torah can be viewed as a way to make us a priesthood caste to the rest of the world is false. I am just wondering if that way of viewing the Torah can possibly attract people well enough to build a new movement around. And in fact in much of part II, RGP himself spells out reasons why, for which his solutions fall flat to my ear. The Post-Modern era is not one in which the idea of spreading the message to others is going to win adherents. His answer is to sure to brand on LeOr Goyim instead of Or laGoyim, to inform rather than to preach. "My calling is not to convince you of their certitude, but to humbly offer you a glimpse of their beauty." But it is exactly the kind of subtlety that would get lost in the translation to a mass movement. One slides into the other and out of fitting with the times. 5. OTOH, what is exciting many Mod-O Jews today on a spiritual plane is what a famous Jewish Action article (somewhat incorrectly) labeled Neo-Chassidus. A worldview built on the Peiczeza and Nesivos Shalom, Tanya, Bilvavli and the Chalban. With the music of Carlebach and lots of epigrams by Rav Nachman. The opposite direction from reaching out.... Deveiqus. A Me-and-G-d way of viewing Judaism. We even have a similar problem in The Mussar Institute. (Whose audience are "spiritually seeking Jews", primarily from the non-O world.) People are getting so caught up in middah work, the reaching in, that I have a personal agenda to focus on the bein adam lachaveiro part of R Yisrael Salanter's message. Perfection in middos being their maximizing our ability to be givers (REED), to be nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chazkel), leheitiv im hazulas (R Shimon Shkop), etc... Selling an Other-Focused Judaism, even one with a universalist spin, may not be the world's easiest sell. Myself, I would push an Other-Focused Judaism too, but without the deemphasis of ahavas Yisrael in favor of ahavas haberios. And, for that matter, leheitiv im hazulas applies to physical chessed to my wife, family, friends and neighborhood well before the hatavah of teaching the world what the Torah has to offer. My spirituality starts with concern for my stomach and your soul. If only I knew how to make that message attractive in a world where products are made popular by putting the word "I" in front of their names. But that's where my own quest as moved since the days when this list began. Mussar is a good idea, and one I hadn't given up on. But it never was a mass movement, and likely something that requires that much work never could be. But could in theory be practiced by anyone is a Torah based on the idea that Hillel's saying that the whole Torah is "de'alakh sani, lechaverkho lo sa'avid" was means seriously, or that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is a kelal gadol even after you leave the poster behind when you leave the 2nd grade classroom. A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit. If only I knew how to fight those elements of the zeigeist. But then, I am not trying to rebuild an already existing movement. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:00 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cellphones on Shabbos Message-ID: There is currently a thread on Areivim titled "more than one quarter of MO youth admit to using their phones on Shabbos", in which R' Danny Schoemann commented: > And I'm sure on Avoda we've discussed why and how using a phone > is Chillul Shabbos. If not, then maybe we should. I can very easily understand people for whom the temptation is so great that they succumb occasionally or even often. But I don't think that's what you're asking. Are you suggesting that these kids honestly don't realize that using a cell phone on Shabbos is assur? It seems to me: Even the most basic listing of the 39 Melachos is more complicated than is needed for this discussion. A discussion of Kavod Shabbos would also be counterproductive. Just ask them: "You don't turn lights on and off, do you? What the difference between that and everything that lights up on the screen?" Or ask them: "You wouldn't write something with pen and paper, would you? How is texting any different?" I concede that if we wanted to, we could get involved with all sorts of lomdish chakiras to answer those questions. But none will make a nafka mina regarding mutar/assur. They are all d'Oraisa/d'Rabanan distinctions, distracting us from the main point, which is that there is no way to use a cellphone on Shabbos except for legitimate medical needs. Kol hamosif gore'a. Comments? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Dec 18 14:37:11 2019 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:37:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel Message-ID: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah related): "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23)? Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information about this?? I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers.? Joseph Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 15:29:25 2019 From: rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> R. Micha, Thank you for including me on this rich and thoughtful post. Here are my thoughts, responding to some of your points in the order that you made them. - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? Did Chabad always emphasise the outreach which has become their trademark activity? I also wonder if the comparison can be made with the other movements that Rabbi Perl mentioned. Chabad, religious Zionism, Torah Im Derech Eretz and the yeshivah movement were all started by ideological leaders with a particular agenda. Was this so of Modern Orthodoxy? I guess what I'm questioning is whether Modern Orthodoxy is based on some kind of founding ideal and agenda which would be transformed if we were to go the path Rabbi Perl is suggesting. - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development in the Modern Orthodox community. It remains to be seen how much can be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer to is instructive. - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate central concept for the community. - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work you have given to the cause over decades. But doesn't a life commitment to Talmud Torah take work? Doesn't the Chabad shlichus demand self-sacrifice for others? I'm sure there are ways to respond to this, making chilukim, etc. but I am not as inclined to rule out the broad acceptance of an approach to middot, chesed, nosei b'ol, etc in our communities. As you know, I'm working on a conference to set a process in motion. If you don't try, you won't know! Best, Anthony Check out The Rise Together Project at and my website at Rabbi Anthony Knopf From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:58:07 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191222185807.GA18920@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:03pm CST, R Harry Maryles pointed us to his blog post "Of Hedgehogs and Ideology" at written in response to R Gil Perl's two-part essay on The Lerhaus. Responding to RHM's blog post: ... > That said, I do not believe that Modern Orthodoxy should make being an > or LaGoyim its passion no matter how noble it is. In my view it should be > defined the way it is traditionally defined as adhering to the ideology > of Torah U'Madda (TuM). And skipping ahead to his close for a minute: > Does that leave Modern Orthodoxy bereft of the hedgehog concept? > Perhaps. But in my view using a Mitzvah that does not really define what > we are really about in order to excite passion in us will in my view - > not work. I thought of this while responding to a very different conversation on Facebook. Someone advocated a more meiqil approach to halakhah on the grounds that the way O is done is scaring people away. I made two objections: C was only one failed attempt at this approach -- it just doesn't work. People just don't bother conforming to the lower standard. The other objection ended with an on-topic one-liner: You can't save something by redefining it. But it matters less here. We don't really need to save Mod-O as much as maximizing the shemiras Torah umitzvos of people who affiliate Mod-O. So, assuming I thought people would stay with that affiliaiton even as the movement redefined itself, I wouldn't object. But personally, the resulting movement wouldn't be for me. As I see it, halakhah has me prioritize those closer to me ahead of those further -- so immediate family, friends, aniyei iri, etc... and much further down are non-Jews. The triage doesn't fit making providing Kol Yaaqov to the community dialog our highest priority. The other problem is that I already bought into Mussar's adage that "my ruchnius means concern for my soul and your stomach". (Something the pre-War chassidishe rebbe who was the rav of the shtielb of my childhood also regularly said.) When it comes to others, gashmi aid is a higher priority than moral education. Again, a different triage. > Rabbi Perl rejects that. He references R' Norman Lamm who - as he points > out - literally wrote the book on that subject. Rabbi Lamm says that > TuM is not an ideology but rather pedagogy - a means of `arriving at > knowledge of the Creator through the avenues of science and the arts'. > In my view, that is a distinction without a difference. Aren't all > Orthodox Jewish ideologies ultimately about that? YU-style Mod-O is indeed Mod Yeshivish. The RIETS morning is no less a child of Volozhin than Lakewood is. But it's not true that "all Orthodox Jewish ideologies" are about "arriving at knowledge of the Creator". The Rambam would go for that. But chassidishe deveiqus is about having a relationship with the Borei, not learning about him. Knowing G-d, rather than knowing *about* G-d. More on this in a reply REGerstl's email, which became its own thread about the Rambam's notion of life's purpose. ... > Not only that, but TuM need not be studied only by > the elite anymore than Torah should. We each do the best we can with > the capabilities God gave to us to do it. Perhaps if you stick with *should*, but what's the motivator for learning mada for the majority of MO Jews? It's not overtly one of the 613, and the person isn't academic by nature, what's driving that time investment into secular studies. And where in the entire span of secular studies are they to choose among if they don't have a personal drive to pick up academic knowledge? On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:29:25PM +0000, R Anthony Knopf replied to my post, writing: > - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their > point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? ... Evolve is different than reinvent. Theseus's Paradox is a thought experiment about the ship Theseus sailed in stories recorded by Plutarch. During the course of his travels, say a sail tore and was replaced. Is it the same ship? Maybe on the next trip, he replaced the mast. Let's say over the course of his lifetime, every single plank and board in that ship was replaced. Theseus would have had continuous use of a ship, at all times it sure seemed like the same ship, and yet there is nothing in it now that was in the original. Is it the same ship? Identity evolves differently than sudden redefinition. But this is a bit off coarse. We're getting more caught up in whether, if the Mod-O infrastructure and membership would largely go for a leOr Goyim ideology, if they would still be Mod-O or not. Which gets more into the definition of a movement than either issues of right or wrong or of feasibility. I really wanted to focus on feasibility. I don't think MO membership would feel they're on the same ship if this were attempted. And so, it wouldn't work. > - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus > article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. > And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a > powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development > in the Modern Orthodox community... I think the question of ultimate purpose is a critical one, regardless of who we're talking about. I recently ran a workshop to help people write life- > be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of > "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer > to is instructive. But it manages to do so without leaving Torah uMada. It seems the Brisker tenor of Mod-Yeshivish a la RYBS is a less deeply held emotional issue. The feeling that we're staying on the same core idea is still there. After all, my youth included some very neo-Chassidus like moments at NCSY kumzeitzin. > - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding > an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the > difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than > "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of > Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent > academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate > central concept for the community. I do to, but... > - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a > popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work > you have given to the cause over decades... > But doesn't a life > commitment to Talmud Torah take work? But then, the learning that has become most popular is daf yomi. You get a feeling of acocmplishment. It's like the difference between a second hand and an hour hand on a watch. The second hand is doing 3,600 times the work, but you can see it working. An hour hand.... Working on middos is slow. There is no "I finished my first mesechta" or "500 blatt" or whatever. You work and you work, and eventually you notice the hour hand is pointing to a new hour when your wife says something about how you've been with the kids lately. And even that is months or years away from then you started. Well, now that I have split my dream into two, I can more easily articulate it. I hope. A central idea for AishDas is to plant the seed of "a vaad in every shul", paralleling the spread of daf Yomi. We had other ideas that we would "get to later", but really the only project we ever invested effort in was the spread of ve'adim. My dream was not that you would have a whole movement of people actively working on their middos. Halevai you could, but as you just noticed, I don't think the masses are ready for years and years of work before seeing signficant results. Character change is slow. Rather, I thought that the existence of those 5-6 people in the va'ad would have secondary effects on the rest of the shul. All the value we're supposed to be giving ehrlachkeit would stay in the discussion. We would be able to see a Yahadus in which how you act on line for the bus is no less a defining feature of who is "one of us" as is what a person eats. More recently, really since I was waiting for the editing of my sefer, I started trying to put another buzzword out there -- Other-Focused Orthodoxy. Because there has to be exploration on how to get to an ehrlachkeit-centered rather than frummkeit-centered observance through ways other than hoping the kind of people AishDas was reaching to would have cultural influence on the kelal. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:19:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] The Rambam's Hedgehog (was: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191222181924.GA22988@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:32pm GMT, R Eliyahu Gerstl responded to RGP's thesis: > I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's > concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct > to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be > considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. > The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch > davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: > Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud... I don't see two points here in the Rambam, Yesodei haTorah 2:1-3 and Hil' Talmud Torah 1:11. In YhT the Rambam defines ahavas H' and yir'as Hashem in terms of a thirst to know about G-d. Because, as I wrote above (in response to RHM), it seems to me the Rambam defines his "deveiqus" (as REG puts it) as an intellectual unity. "What is the way to love Him and feel yir'ah for Him? When a person contemplates His Actions and His Creations, which are nifla'im gedolim, and sees His Chokhmah in it... immediately he love, praises, glorifies, and mis'aveh ta'avah gedolah ot know the sheim hagadol..." First, in TT 1:11, the shelish betalmud is halachic dialectic -- "... until he knows what are the iqar of the midos [shehaTorah nideshes bahen] and how to extract what is assur and what is mussar, andthe like, from what he studied from the oral tradition." Not aggadita. We do find aggadita included with Mada in YhT 2:2 as the means to ahavas veyir'as Hashem. Different mitzvos than TT. To skip to the end of this post too because I want to respond to it together with the above: > This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing > on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of > HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by > a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models > in our history. What neo-Chassidus shows is that the Mod-O Jew is looking for some experiential / emotional Judaism. But in any case, I don't think the Rambam's parallel to deveiqus is a major element in today's hashkafic discourse. Too cerebral, too much aimed only at the academic. I also amnot sure the Rambam's hashkafah was particularly popular among Chazal either. > Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 To me, the core thought of this last pereq of the Moreh is his ranking of the 4 types of perfection the gemara expects of a navi -- wealth, health, intellect and middos. The Rambam flips the last two, not only in the order he presents them, but the Rambam is clear that these are asvending types of perfection. That only intellectual perfection is a permanent refinement of the most core part of the self: The fourth kind of perfection is the true perfection of man: the possession of the highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards God. With this perfection man has obtained his final object; it gives him true human perfection; it remains to him alone; it gives him immortality, and on its account he is called man. Examine the first three kinds of perfection, you will find that, if you possess them, they are not your property, but the property of others; according to the ordinary view, however, they belong to you and to others. But the last kind of perfection is exclusively yours... And as REG also quoted: > ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by > him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the > knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the > manner in which it influences His creatures in their production > and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will > then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, > and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have > explained this many times in this treatise. Really, more so than middos and character? And so I thought for decades, until I saw RYBS said differently. Not that I understand how RYBS reaches that concludion, given how much of pereq 54. And the opening chapters of the Moreh about how the eitz hadaas messed up the pursuit of knowledge by introducing precondition steps; the definition of nevu'ah as an overflow from the Active Intellect; 3:18 where he defines a homo sapien's personhood in proportion to their knowledge, so that a person receives hashgachah peratis is proportional to yedi'ah; and 3:51 and the castle garden metaphor at the start of the Moreh's closing section. Really, it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the Moreh Nevuchim. BUT RYBS understands this section of 3:54 as saying that even yedi'ah isn't the end of the human endevor, chesed, mishpat and tzedaqah are. Looking at pereq 53: This chapter encomapsses the meanig of three sheimos that needs explaining: chesed, mitzpat, and tzedaqah. And so on, until: We have shown that "chesed" refers to gemilus chesed gamur, and "tzedaqah" to any good that one does because of the loftiness of middos, to thereby complete one's nefesh, and "mishpat" sometimes has an outcome of neqamah, and sometimes tov. We already epxlained how distant attributes are [from theology][ that any attribute one attributes to the Deity yisbarakh in the books of nevi'im is an attribute of action. ... And then the Rambam returns to this idea later in 54. The navi does not content himself with explaining that the knowledge of G-d is the highest kind of perfection; for if this only had been his intention, he would have said, ... He says, however, that man can only gain praise for himself in the knowledge of G-d and in the knowledge of His "Ways and Attributes", which are His actions, as we have shown (MN 1:54) in expounding the passage, "har'eini na es Kevodekha" (Exod. 38:13). We are thus told in this passage that the Divine acts which ought to be known, and ought to serve as a guide for our actions, are, ch??es, mishpat, antzedaqah." Another very important lesson is taught by the additional phrase, "ba'aretz." It implies a fundamental principle of the Torah; it rejects the theory of those who boldly assert that God's providence does not extend below the sphere of the moon, and that the earth with its contents is abandoned, that "azav H' es ha'aretz" (Yechezqeil 8:12). It teaches, as has been taught by the greatest of all wise men in the words, "Lashem ha'atez umloa'ah" (Shemos 9:29), that His providence extends to the earth in accordance with its nature, in the same manner as it controls the heavens in accordance with their nature.... And so on. So far, all about knowledge of HQBH. Even chesed, tzedaqah umishpat are about knowing *Hashem's* HZu"M, and that there is hashgachah in this world. And then, this: The navi thus, in conclusion, says, "ki ba'eileh chafatzti, ne'um H'" i.e., My object [in saying this] is that you shall practise HZu"M the earth. In a similar manner we have shown (MN 1:54) that the object of the enumeration of H's 13 Middos is the lesson that we should acquire similar attributes and act accordingly. The object of the above passage is therefore to declare, that the perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired -- as far as this is possible for man -- the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek HZu"M, and thus to imitate the ways of G-d. We have explained this many times in this treatise. So, the purpose of all this knowledge is to know what to emulate. And yet the perfection of the knowledge is a greater perfection than the perfection of the middos one acquired by emulation? What am I missing? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 16:11:11 2019 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: In Avodah v37n97, one of R'Micha's last thoughts was > A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit < which brings us back to TiDE and RSRH's Mensch Yisrael. --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 03:18:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > What percentage of people would like to know how they are > really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self- > image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not > telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them > out there? Personally, I would love to know about the things I do that are viewed negatively by others. If I had that information, I could either correct my actions, or I could explain myself to them and thereby improve their views of me, and possibly even improve how *they* act. However, as much as I would like that, I generally do not tell others when I view them negatively. To do so successfully requires a great deal of tact and sensitivity, and experience has shown me that I usually fail when I attempt these things. I believe that this approach is supported by the halachos of Tochacha: attempt to correct people, but first, do no harm. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 24 23:14:21 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 07:14:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv Message-ID: From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, it should be done by example. My response: Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner consistent with the will of HKB"H. If the result is we are mekarev them (as imho it would be if we act this way), great BUT that is not our ultimate goal (much as we don't do mitzvot for reward, it's an ancillary benefit) Your thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Dec 26 09:42:22 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=96_A_Torah_View?= Message-ID: https://rabbiefremgoldberg.org/audio_listing/celebrating-birthdays-a-torah-view/ I think that many will be surprised by this talk. There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 26 20:05:48 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 04:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=E2=80=93_A_Torah_View?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F184740-02E5-426B-85CE-342B8AA10C63@sibson.com> There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL ______________________________________________ I gave a shiur on this a number of years back. My main take away was it should be used as an opportunity for reflection, Not A celebration per se Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 20:07:55 2019 From: jmeisner at gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:07:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel In-Reply-To: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:36 AM Joseph Kaplan via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel > in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in > Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah > related): > > "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah > scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival > in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who > were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, > etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23< > https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/babylonian_exile/>)? > > Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: > > ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any > assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely > the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during > this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the > assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information > about this?? > > I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about > is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows > what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article > and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical > sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher > butchers.? > I assume that the author was taking creative license based on Sanhedrin 38a, which states more generally that the galus of Tzidkiyahu was pushed earlier so that they would arrive while the charash and the masger of the galus of Yechonya were still alive. To address RDYL's question, what would such help have looked like? A brigade of soldiers (or elephants)? A steady stream of volunteers? Massive infusions of gold that could be used to buy modern weaponry on the black market? Considering the distance between Bavel and Eretz Yisroel and the difficulty in traveling between one and the other, this question may have a very modern bias to it. I was going to suggest that the king of Persia may have further objected to any of this assistance leaving his territory, but, according to Wikipedia, the Parthians did not conquer Bavel until shortly after the neis of Chanukah, prior to which it was until the control of the... Seleucids. Hence, the Seleucid governor of Bavel certainly would not have approved of any aid being provided to the rebellion in Eretz Yisroel. Did the decrees against Torah in Eretz Yisroel also apply in Bavel? I've never heard this discussed. More generally, it seems that we (or maybe just I?) know little about the Jews of Bavel during the time period in question. Ezra (and perhaps Zerubavel) left there a couple of centuries earlier, while Nechemya left from and Mordechai and Esther were in Paras. There are a handful of tanna'im called Bavli'im, but the center of the chachmei hamishnah was clearly in Eretz Yisroel. While it's conceivable (although perhaps not likely) that there were direct lines from the yeshivos of the charash and masgeir to the yeshivos of Rav and Shmuel, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was strong religious leadership the whole time that would have coordinated such an assistance drive for the Chashmona'im. Just a few thoughts. A lichtige Chanukah (What's the origin of this phrase, by the way?), Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Mon Dec 30 05:19:42 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Anti-Semitism is Out of Control Message-ID: <7172577B-31F7-4CA0-B25C-35C37FB57BFF@cox.net> It is imperative to address the rampant anti-Semitism which is on the rise exponentially. Please watch the following (under) 10 minute television interview of former NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind. It is time we realize that the laws of the ?rodef? definitely apply to the anti-Semite. https://www.foxnews.com/media/dov-hikind-hanukkah-stabbing-new-york-anti-semitism From micha at aishdas.org Tue Dec 31 22:03:37 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 01:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro Message-ID: <588c3f15-5b25-452b-9857-ca858cb7cd12@Michas-iPad> CC: RRYE So, RRYEisenman's recent Short Vort has been making the rounds. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1815470 (Carried as OpEd pieces in both The Yeshiva World and Matzav.) RRYW writes: Op-Ed: Important "Checklist" Of Things To "Bring" To The Siyum Hashas December 31, 2019 11:00 am As the horrifying events of Monsey are still so fresh in our minds, coupled with other over manifestations of anti-Semitism in the New York area, it behooves all of us to rethink our preparations for the great convocation of Jews on Wednesday in Met-Life Stadium. ... Keep in mind that this event is a momentous one for Kavod HaTorah and for Kavod Shomayim. The last-minute items to remember to pack: 1. SMILE a. Most important: remember to bring your best smile with you. ... e. Keep in mind that all of the workers, security people, police, maintenance people, cleaning staff, parking attendants and anyone else working are human beings. f. These are the same human beings who our Sages say about them, "Beloved are human beings, for they was created in the image of Hashem...as it says, "For in the image of G-d, He made human beings". (Genesis 9:6) g. You must smile when you see someone created in the image of Hashem. h. Can you think of any other greater irony than for 100,000 plus people who are the children of Hashem who have come to give honor to Hashem, not recognizing those who are also created in His image? i. Smile, smile and smile more at each and every person you meet. 2. Happy New Year! a. These people are all working on what is to them one of the most important and universally observed holidays: the day which is called New Years Day. b. It is totally irrelevant that these people are also getting paid ... 3. Thank You a. This might be the most important item to remember to bring. ... Most importantly, we have the opportunity to bring Kavod and honor to His Holy name. Note his repeated appeal to bein adam laMaqom (BALM) terms. Smile at a person because he is a tzelem E-lokim and it is part of giving honor to HQBH. Or qiddush hasheim / avoid chillul hasheim. And this theme came up more in discussions of this OpEd on social media. But I have an open question about this strategy that I have been chewing on for years. Maybe people here have opinions. We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom. And so, in the short run, it makes sense to sell bein adam lachaveiro by emphasizing the BALM aspects of it -- respecting Hashem by respecting a tzelem E-lokim, and chillul vs. qiddush hasheim. But... I am not sure if I like the message or not. Isn't the road out of this whole mess a realization that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is the more central principle of the Torah? If we reinforce the idea that it is only "really" against the Torah is it interferes with my relating to the Creator, will we be in the same boat a generation from now? Are we getting people to do the right thing, and atttidue will follow any behaviors we can encourage? Can we create the right habit this way? Or are we reinvorcing the imbalanced attitude, and we'll never get out of this "frumkeit" hole? I have picked up the conundrum repeatedly since starting on my book. I don't have an answer, though. Your thoughts? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and http://www.aishdas.org/asp this was a great wonder. But it is much more Author: Widen Your Tent wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "mensch"! -Rav Yisrael Salanter From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 1 18:49:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Av Message-ID: A thought for Tu B'AV: R'SBG (taanit 30b) designates the two most yamim tovim (holidays) Yom Kippur and Tu B'av. While the gemara lists a number of events which occurred on Tu B'av, I've always been partial to Yom Tvar Hamaagal (the day they stopped cutting wood for the wood pile). Initially I favored it as a paradigm for priority juggling (going back to Torah learning when your job is done), but it occurred to me that the pairing with Yom Kippur is exquisite - Yom Kippur being representative of the short spurt/high profile avodat Hashem while Tu B'av represents the ongoing low profile diligent avodah of daily life. We need both! GCT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Oct 2 09:44:52 2019 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:44:52 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Oct 1, 2019 05:57:56 pm Message-ID: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a few weeks. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 2 15:57:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20191002225720.GA3766@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 04:44:52PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: >> In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a > few weeks. I know Rashi says it's like "beshegam" with a segol, and then explains it as "bishvil shegam". And maybe the Torah contracts "asher" only when sandwitched after a be-? It would explain the uniqueness. But I find Ibn Ezra's comparison to the shin in shekhakha (in "ashrei ha'am shekakha lo") more compelling, and the Ramban did too. The Netziv has the shin as part of the shoresh, as in "mishagmaso". Etc... As RJFS writes, it's "one *possible* exception". GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder] http://www.aishdas.org/asp isn't complete with being careful in the laws Author: Widen Your Tent of Passover. One must also be very careful in - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF the laws of business. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 2 22:13:18 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut Message-ID: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. [PS: I'm not sure whether this belongs on Avodah or Areivim] -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 3 11:37:39 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 > We know that Pas Paltur, "Baker's Bread," is actually permitted year > round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all > one's bread products are strictly Pas Yisrael. But what do these terms > mean? And why should we be stringent with this, of all halachos, and > why specifically now? And what about Shabbos? > Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter > of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily > available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and > the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot > purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress > that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. See the above URL for more. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 3 16:50:05 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003235005.GA11274@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 06:37:39PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 >> Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter >> of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily >> available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and >> the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot >> purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress >> that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. So that while the Yerushalmi's case of eating chullin betaharah is more bein adam lamaqom... When it comes to pas palter during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah, are saying that for AYT we make a point of supporting other Jews, even if our bread may be a little pricier or not as tasty as the rest of the year. More a bein adam lachaveiro practice. GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger Mussar is like oil put in water, http://www.aishdas.org/asp eventually it will rise to the top. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yisrael Salanter - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:27:05 2019 From: simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:27:05 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut In-Reply-To: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> References: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:54 PM Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: > https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 > > It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The > author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and > the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. Powerful indeed, one of the high points of the RH liturgy. By the way, the London S&P mahzor and the Keter Shem Tov, both attribute it to R. Yehuda Halevi. From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:47:59 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice Message-ID: Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the current practice? GT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:51:42 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes Message-ID: Excerpt Recent correspondence: > Sholom u'vracha, > I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It > strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly > fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two > different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av > practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other > seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts. > How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz" [ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb] I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather 1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion) GT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 07:23:52 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population Message-ID: <20191010142352.GA31063@aishdas.org> One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers. This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as "clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os. Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole 6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the time the Kenaanim get to the scene.... See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel or numberous other links. They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 10 09:48:15 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 11:48:15 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these > activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? > A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom > Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical > instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies. Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments if they break while playing. It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another to continue these peripheral extensions. > On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived > the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen > Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason > presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing > and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning > a musical instrument. And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah. Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e. that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording. How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres, or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres. That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites "acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah would be equally exempt. And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments themselves. The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the first place. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: >That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod >haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites >"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a >waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah >would be equally exempt. ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3 and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY. For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 12:58:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted... ... > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the 9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians. Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3. There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to be about until at least 400 years after Chazal. In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah. Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique nighttime reading. Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat. It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside from it being minag, not din, anyway.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:59:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: > > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. > >But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of >minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is D'Rabbonon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 13:18:53 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > D'Rabbonon. Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level because of the act, not because of the date. Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 13:41:35 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22.7A.01711.4D99F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:18 PM 10/10/2019, you wrote: >Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? If I were in EY on SA I would not dance. (Truth of the matter is that I do not dance on ST anymore, given my broken Patella.) It does seem strange to me to have Yizkor and dancing on the same day. If you read Ya'ari's sefer you will see that the ARI danced on Motzoei SA and not on SA itself. He did not dance on SA itself in EY. However, in a sefer that describes him dancing it says mistakenly that he danced and encouraged others to do the same on the night of SA. This is not true. I note that in EY there are big celebrations on the night after SA with music to accompany the dancing with the Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Oct 10 14:18:40 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> On 10/10/19 4:47 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice > changed from allowing the body to decay and then ?burying? the bones, to > the current practice? > GT As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for farming became less important. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 06:21:52 2019 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > > D'Rabbonon. > > Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? > I believe that doing so would be a great Tikkun. The heter "lichvod haTorah" doesn't convince me at all: all the dancing and singing and drinking and shmoozing *while the Torah is being read* seem to me the opposite of kavod. Ditto the practice of calling up everybody in the shul, which is not even a halachic requirement. I only wish I could find a minyan that agrees with me on these points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Oct 13 06:03:10 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> Message-ID: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Sun Oct 13 07:21:13 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] suffering/inui Message-ID: I'm looking into whether increased inui/suffering is ever something to seek (or at least not avoid). Besides yom kippur and other fasts are there other possible applications? I've heard some say childbirth -any sources? Any others? Gt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandels at ou.org Sun Oct 13 07:01:43 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail>, Message-ID: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. --- Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On October 13, 2019 at 9:03:19 AM EDT, Prof. L. Levine wrote: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. Legal Disclaimer The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:38:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions: 1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods? Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum? 2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter? Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to be a staple also? Why be lenient? I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur. << Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of thought. >> If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as a snack, and not as a meal. In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas Palter. So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to consider PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:38:38 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mimetics Message-ID: https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/ > "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted > great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on > Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of > legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt > an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this > persuasion conduct herself?" Optimal? Mimetics be darned! Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:35:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? Message-ID: Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community norms...)] Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From chidekel at mail.gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:50:54 2019 From: chidekel at mail.gmail.com (Meir Shinnar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret Message-ID: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Seth Mandel > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers > (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent > of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were > known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. Meir Shinnar From mandels at ou.org Wed Oct 16 14:15:42 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:15:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it. From: Meir Shinnar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM > It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik > ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just > some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret > (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, > even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures > I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l > said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken, and he was much more than a "fellow traveler." But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases lahalokho. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel Rabbinic Coordinator The Orthodox Union Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels at ou.org From hanktopas at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:42:41 2019 From: hanktopas at gmail.com (Henry Topas) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: Mo'ed Tov: I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this structure has been instituted? Is it different in nuschaot other than Ashkenaz? Shkoyech and a Git'n Kvitel, HT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:00:21 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:15:42PM +0000, Mandel, R/Dr Seth responded to R/Dr Meir Shinar: >> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l >> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. > As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great > talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that > he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that > are against established halokho... Not my experience at all. He does work hard to find justifications for things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, not the practices of Chassidim. On the subject of Litvaks who considered the AhS one of their own: Add the early RMF, who wrote in vol 1 that the AhS was poseiq acharon, only to switch to saying so of the MB in a later volume. (My guess is that when R Moshe saw that lemaaseh the MB was being followed over the Ahs in nearly all quarters, he stopped holding out.) Also, R' Dovid Lifshitz and R' S Yaakov Weinberg both told their talmidim to turn to the AhS. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but by rubbing one stone against another, Author: Widen Your Tent sparks of fire emerge. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:14:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> Message-ID: <20191017211443.GA16981@aishdas.org> On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 02:01:43PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote: > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers ... True. But the Minchas Elazar's validation of the practice is so cute I just need to share it. (It's been a few years since the last time.) The gemara writes (47a): meisiv ha yasvei, berukhi lo mevorkhei Rav Huna bar Bizna and all the gedolei hador "sitting they would sit, but the berakhah they didn't bless". The Muncaczer wonder about the double language. Why wouldn't the gemara just say "ha yasvei velo mvorkhei"? So he suggests that the gemara is to be read as bitmiya: "Do you think sitting they would sit when the berakhah they couldn't bless?!" As I said, cute. Totally unconvincing to this Litvak, but I admit the creativity. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From zev at sero.name Fri Oct 18 07:41:57 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:41:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c715c42-4f5f-8013-d89a-fd77762fcb25@sero.name> On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Davening isn't structured with kaddish opportunities in mind. On the contrary, kaddish is an afterthought, tacked on to the bits before and after the main event. Since on Yom Kippur we (at least in principle) go right through the day there's no need to conclude each tefilla with ketoret and/or Aleinu, and thus no opportunity for kaddish afterwards. I davened at a Sefaradi minyan, where things were different. First, after musaf there was Ketoret/Ledavid Mizmor/Ledavid Ori, followed by a kaddish (though surprisingly it was not Al Yisrael), and then Alenu followed by chatzi kaddish. After mincha there was a perek of tehilim and alenu, each followed by kaddish. There was nothing after ne'ilah, but there was a kaddish after each of the sifrei torah in the morning. In addition, as is my custom, I learned Kelim 24 and Mikvaot 7 before musaf and again before mincha and concluded them after those tefilot, with Kadish Al Yisrael. I seem to recall there was also something learned during the 40-minute break before mincha, followed by kaddish Al Yisrael, but my memory is a bit hazy. (I do remember that mishnayot Yoma was learned after maariv, followed by kaddish.) If you had been at an L shul, your kaddish opportunities would have been as follows: After musaf there would be tehillim and mishnayos; after mincha there would be Ledavid Ori; and after neilah there would be Ketores, tehillim, and mishnayos; each followed by kaddish, plus one on the first sefer torah in the morning. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mandels at ou.org Fri Oct 18 08:13:10 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> , <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> Message-ID: From: Micha Berger Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:00 PM > Not my experience at all. [AhS] does work hard to find justifications for > things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me > tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos > do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, > not the practices of Chassidim. He works hard to find bases for minhogim of many groups. His defense of the chasidic customs that violate halokho, however seems to notable, because he does it for all of the three or four cases that are directly against all the poskim. I am not enough of an expert to evaluate whether it is egregiously different than his defense of other minhogim. But it is fairly well known that he became a great admirer of the Tzemach Tzedek after he first met him. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel From micha at aishdas.org Sat Oct 19 18:57:01 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Barukh Dayan haEmes - Rabbanit Shoshana Boublil In-Reply-To: <10375da9-e283-47e9-ae6d-25316c491142@Michas-iPad> Message-ID: <39cbf7cd-2d3e-48d7-b363-268c0ac5baf2@Michas-iPad> I regret having to share the news that Rt Shoshana Boublil has lost her battle against cancer. The levayah will be tomorrow at 12:30 Bet Olamin haYarqon, Shaar Ge?ulah Her family will be sitting shiv?ah at her home. The address was sent to Areivim. I would say more, but I have no idea how the laws of hespedim on ch?m apply to this situation. -Micha > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isaac at balb.in Sun Oct 20 00:33:15 2019 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini At erect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7F7B49-E256-4064-B391-46540CA77860@balb.in> From: "Mandel, Seth" One must also bear in mind that apart from his friendship and esteem for the Tzemach Tzedek (Agav, The Beis HaLevi also sent Shaylos to the Tzemach Tzedek) one needs to remember that he was Rav in a town populated by Lubavitcher Chassidim as I noted here https://pitputim.me/2016/11/14/what-should-we-be-doing-during-the-lifting-of-the-torah-part-4/ In respect of Hagba and how that is done. _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik Z"L From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:28:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Time for dinner on Shmini Atzeres Message-ID: Regarding the late afternoon of Hoshana Raba in Chutz Laaretz, Mishneh Brura 668:7 writes: <<< The Acharonim conclude that one should not eat in the evening until dark. However, b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi, he should *not* say Leshev Basukkah, because he already accepted Shmini Atzeres in davening and in kiddush. >>> >From this, it seems that the MB has no problem beginning Shmini Atzeres early, with davening and/or kiddush, his only problem is with eating. He explains this more deeply in Shaar Hatziuy 668:12: <<< The reason is because it is still part of the seventh day, and he is obligated by the Torah to eat in the sukkah. How can he eat without daying Leshev Basukkah?!?!? But to say Leshev Basukkah is not possible, because it would be a contradiction, because in davening and kiddush, he declared it to be Shmini Atzeres! >>> Writing in chutz laaretz, the MB clearly presumes that this person *is* in the sukkah, and the only problem is the bracha. I don't understand why the bracha is such a big deal. What's wrong with simply omitting the Layshev? Let's phrase it this way: This person has two choices: (A) At this time, during which there might be a Torah obligation to eat in the sukkah, he can eat in the sukkah without the Birkas Hamitzvah. (B) Because of the uncertainty about saying the bracha, he should avoid eating in the sukkah entirely, until this uncertain time ends. - It seems clear to me that it would be far preferable to choose A and thereby possibly do a mitzvah d'Oraisa albeit without a bracha, rather than just sit around squandering that opportunity. Why am I wrong? What did I miss? (By the way, please note the MB's words "b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi". I am curious what he would advise for a person who said Kiddush and washed Netilas Yadayim, but did NOT say Hamotzi yet. Shaar Hatziyun 668:13 (near end) is lenient for the last quarter-hour before dark, but what if it were earlier? Would he really tell a person not to eat yet?) None of the above would apply in Eretz Yisrael, where there are real problems with eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, even without a bracha. Similarly, in Eretz Yisrael it's not possible to eat in the house until dark, because of the safek chiyuv d'Oraisa. But my next question, I think, is equally valid in Israel and Chu"l: Suppose it is raining on Hoshana Raba afternoon - wither in Eretz Yisrael or not - and the rain is expected to continue into the night, and he is therefore planning to eat indoors. Is there any reason to delay dinner? The MB has no problem with davening or kiddush early, and there is no question of saying Leshev. So why not? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Oct 22 18:11:18 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:11:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon Message-ID: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, then how was it he ate of the tree? Does that mean that Chava already had the yetzer hara? And if not, why would she even have been tempted. With only the yezter tov, they would be like the malachim. [Email #2. -micha] In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash able to speak and cause them to sin? From arie.folger at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:42:01 2019 From: arie.folger at gmail.com (Arie Folger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Reb Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Reb Zev Zero gave an important part of the answer. But I want to take this opportunity to express my astonishment that not more people are realizing that the lack of 'Alenu after Mussaf isn't a minhag of Yom Kippur, but a result of the original minhag, still practiced in Yekki communities, that Alenu is not recited between two tefillot that follow immediately after one another. I.e. when saying Ma'ariv immediately after Minchah, no 'Alenu is said after Minchah, or, when Minchah is said immediately after Mussaf. In many shuls, there is no break between Mussaf and Minchah (actually, no break on Yom Kippur, period), which is why there is no 'Alenu. Since most shuls, however, introduced a break between Mussaf and Minchah, it stands to reason that we should say 'Alenu and Kaddish. -- Arie Folger, Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 23 08:13:37 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] blessings Message-ID: Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 13:10:06 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] blessings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191023201006.GB20617@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:13:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should > be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because > brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) I think the former, looking at the phrase in context in the gemara. R Elazar quoting R Chanina continues (Megillah 15a): ... For two gedolei hador were blessed by two hedyotos and they were fulfilled. And they [the gedolim] are David (Shemu'el 2 24:23) and Daniyel (6:17).... And then he continues about qelelas hedyot, with Avimelekh cursing Sarah (Bereishis 20:16) causing Yitzchaq's blindness as an example. Aside from the indications from the examples... Why would R' Chanina advise us to increase the chance of a qelalah working by believing in it? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is a stage and we are the actors, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but only some of us have the script. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Menachem Nissel - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 14:43:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of the Universe. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:32:03 +0000 Subject: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis ... GOOD MORNING! How old is the universe? 13.8 billion years or 6,000 years? Did Creation take place in 6 twenty-four hour days or were they longer? This week I bring to you a fascinating approach from a fascinating man. Daniel Friedmann holds a master's degree in engineering physics and is the Chairman of Carbon Engineering, a company dedicated to removing co2 from the air to solve climate change and ex-CEO of the Canadian company that made the robotic arm for the Space Shuttle. He lays out his research in his book, The Biblical Clock. Why did Mr. Friedmann start investigating the connection between the Torah's story of Creation and the scientific timeline? The Talmudic sages teach that 'God looked into the Torah and created the world" (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. 1:2). Mr. Friedmann concluded that if the Torah is the blueprint of the universe, then the Torah account of creation and scientific account of the age of the Universe must coincide. About 700 years ago Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the assertion that time -- while God was creating and man had not yet appeared -- was different than time as we keep today. Mr. Friedmann, based on this insight and on classical sources, aligns the dates of key events as described in Genesis 1 and 2 with those derived from scientific theory and observation. How? One Creation Day = 1,000 x 365.25 x 7,000 = 2.56 billion years. The factor of 1,000 comes directly from Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day" -- where we learn that one day for God equals 1,000 human years. The 365.25 number is simply a conversion from days to years (being the number of days in a year). The factor of 7,000 relates to cosmic cycles. The Talmud, (Sanhedrin 97a), which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." Various Kabbalistic works, dating back to the first century, write that there are 7 cosmic cycles of 7000 thousand years (analogous to the sabbatical cycles). The factor of 7000 relates to these cycles. (This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs). The Torah provides a detailed timeline of the creation events. Genesis describes the timeline for the formation of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Each event is provided in sequence with a time of occurrence. For example, we are told that the sun was completed at the end of Day 4, that life first appeared in the oceans at the beginning of Day 5, and that the animals were made in Day 6; careful examination of the Genesis text reveals about 20 separate creation events. Much of the information in Genesis is further detailed in the Oral Torah to reveal a more accurate timeline of events. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b) provides the detailed account of Day 6, hour-by-hour: "The day consisted of twelve hours. In the first hour, his (Adam's) dust was gathered... in the fifth, he arose and stood on his feet; in the sixth, he gave (the animals) their names; in the seventh, Eve became his mate; in the eighth, they ascended to bed as two and descended as four (i.e., Cain and Abel are born); in the ninth he entered the Garden of Eden and he was commanded not to eat of the tree; in the tenth, he sinned; in the eleventh, he was tried; and in the twelfth, he was expelled (from Eden)..." Mr. Friedmann then calculates that the Age of the universe from the start of Day 1 to today: exactly 13.74 billion years, coinciding with the latest scientific measurements. Beginnings of life: from first thing on Day 5 ("let the waters teem" Gen. 1:20) to today corresponds to 3.52 billion years which is in agreement with the scientific time for "universal ancestor" -- the single cell. Plant life (on the land): from hours 6 to 9 on Day 6 until today ("God planted a garden... and there He placed the man... And God caused to sprout from the ground every tree" Gen. 2:8, 9) corresponds to 426-106 million years ago which he reports is in agreement with the fossil record. The Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science.... ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Daniel Friedmann Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:38 PM Micha Berger wrote: > Isn't this the a minor variant on what R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote in 1979 in > "The Age of the Universe - A Torah-True Perspective"? > http://nleresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/the_age_of_the_universe___a_torah_true_perspective.pdf > If so, you might want to see R' Ari Kahn's obections in Explorations, which > he excerpted on the Avodah email list at > http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n080.html Hi thank you, no this is different from Rabbi Kaplan's work as detailed in my book. RK had the cycles of 7000 occurring before day 1 this was not in accordance with the Arizal. In the approach here the 7000 is for each creation day based on commentary on Etz Hayim This provides an age of the universe of 13.74 vs 15 billion and allows calculation of another 17 events All but one match scientific measurement. Sorry for the short answer .... From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:12:17 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:12:17 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Which gate did they use to go into the azara when bringing the korban pesach? Message-ID: It is clear that they used shaar nikanor but the question is did they use the other gates of the azara as well? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:31:49 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 06:31:49 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Oct 25 07:14:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191025141420.GE25728@aishdas.org> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 06:31:49AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get > 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly > changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up > with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? This is a problem with concordism in general. Look at how well the Rambam held up. However, if you believe there is only one emes, and aren't ready to simply dismiss or ignore whatever evidence we do have, then you would feel there is a duty to keep on finding convergence. Not in the tenor of "science finally caught up to Torah", more "see, the two needn't contradict; you don't have to choose." :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but when a prophet dies, his influence is just Author: Widen Your Tent beginning. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Soren Kierkegaard From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Oct 27 05:14:25 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Noach Message-ID: <562504E5-2AC5-4CBA-BD30-59C27C348441@cox.net> In Parshat Noach, Ch.8 verse 2, the word "vayikalei" (and the rain from heaven was restrained) appears only twice in the entire Bible. The only other place it occurs is in Parshat Vayakhel where Moses commanded the Jews to contribute materials for the building of the Tabernacle. The Jews responded with such energy that Moses soon had more than enough material and he had to tell the people to cease. (We should be so lucky today). The people dutifully complied, as the Torah records: "And the people were restrained from bringing" (Exodus 36:6). The Baal HaTurim who pointed out the rare occurrence of this word says that this connection reminds us that when God rains down His blessings, people increase their level of tzedakah. But when the rain stops, so does their generosity. (Actually, I would have thought it was just the opposite because if God did not rain down his blessings, people would be afraid that they've sinned and therefore would increase their level of tzedakah. But as soon as the blessings rain down, people in their prosperity forget others and are less generous. I would tend to think it really depends upon the person, etc.). From ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:06:53 2019 From: ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> References: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2019, 5:43 PM, at 5:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote: >The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had >when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of >the Universe. https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/aryeh-kaplan-on-evolution-a-missing-chapter-of-the-handbook-of-jewish-thought/ I don't like the Schroederian take on Evolution, but, regardless, a major discovery. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:46:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in certain cases). So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:33:32 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon In-Reply-To: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> References: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191031023332.GE14724@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 09:11:18PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil > inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, > then how was it he ate of the tree? ... The Rambam (MN 1:1-2) says that until the sin, Adam and Chavah's challenge was to decide between truth and falsehood. And the snake provided the falsehood that they fell for. Potentially along the same lines, R' Dessler says that until the sin the yeitzer hara was externalized in the form of the nachash. The sin caused the internalization of desire. Which also depends on someone who only wants to do Hashem's Will falling for the arguments of the externalized yh"r. > In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also > called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, > because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the > question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply > the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash > able to speak and cause them to sin? First, I think the "ruach memalela" of Unqelus that Rashi is referring to is not the power to speak, but having an internal monolog. The ability to "hear" one's thoughts is a critical part of assessing what one's thinking and a necessary element of free will. Which would explain why Koko the gorilla's (et al) skill at learning sign language doesn't pose a question about kinds of soul. (And could be why they didn't *invent* language.) Pre-fruit, this world and the olam ha'emes hadn't yet split into two. (R Kook) So Adam could have encountered the snake in a non-physical way. The nachash might not even be the physical snake, but the satan who was riding him (is that the Zohar or only Ben Sira?), or the angel in charge of snakes. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:04:56 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:04:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 15 Av In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031020456.GA14724@aishdas.org> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 02:09:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: >> And further ... if a woman converts for marriage, and the >> marriage is assur, is there any way to say the conversion was >> valid? I mean, there are pretty loose definitions of qabbalas >> ol malkhus Shamayim compared to what a beis din would hope for. >> But converting for the sake of being able to do an issur??? > These are great questions, and their answers are far above my level. But > I'll say this: It is not at all unusual to come across a gemara that says, > "You're not allowed to convert in this manner, but if you did, then it is > valid." And some of those leniencies raise the exact question that RMB is > asking, because if the gerus was done is a forbidden manner, where is the > qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim? There is a significant break in the parallel you're proposing. Someone whose geirus was done wrongly but kosher bedi'eved was converted by a beis din who did something wrong. It doesn't necessarily disprove the geir's qabbalas ol mitzvos, because (1) they're relying on people who are comparatively subject matter experts, not acting on their own; and (2) they aren't necessarily converting for the sake of being able to sin. And if (3) it's about wondering about the convert's QOM vs ulterier motive (like the Rambam's discussion of Shimshon's and Shelomo haMelekh's wifes), the convert him/herself isn't wondering. Here, you have someone converting just for the purpose of sinning. It isn't about the conversion, where the ball or sin is in the beis din't court. (It doesn't involve any questions of the kashrus of the geirus being valid by circular or paradoxical reasoning -- the sin doesn't have the self-reference nature of being in the conversion itself.) > By the way, where did they find a Beis Din in Moav? Yes, that was a > rhetorical question, intended to point out that if Rus and Orpah did have a > valid conversion at the beginning of the story, the procedure must have > involved some pretty serious leniencies. Well, if two famous people went to where there was food, out of the whole Jewish and Israelish peoples, there must have been at least 3 others. That doesn't surprise me. > Hmmm... Actually, if Rus converted at the end of the story, that is pretty > problematic too, because even if there isn't any "conversion for the sake > of marriage" to worry about, the Beis Din is even more surprising. (Someone > *might* make a case that two brothers could be a Beis Din for gerus, but > when Naami and Rus were alone they didn't have any Jewish men around at Or again, anonymous and unmentioned bit players. Who said they were all alone on the road? Maybe the road was better traveled than that? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:13:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] guessing at history? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031021308.GB14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 08:16:45AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I recently heard a shiur where the presenter described the "bad > scholarship" of the Torah Tmimah when offering the "misread abbreviation" > explanation (e.g. v'hazmanim really means fill in the holiday name). I > thought it a bit unkind since ISTM the guessing about the historical > circumstances of practices is what poskim do all the time (e.g. why some > women have a minhag not doing mlacha on rosh chodesh) I noticed that his father also gets very creative. The difference is, the Arukh haShulchan's creative sevaros are always to try to figure out how halakhah as practiced could have emerged from the texts. The TT doesn't have that limitation. But saying he was wrong doesn't need to be a value judgment. For example, his theory that saying "Migdol" in (after?) bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov came from someone confusing "B"Sh" for "BeShemu'el B" with "BeShabbos" is provably wrong. The Avudraham refers to the custom, and yet predates the Christian publishing of Shemuel in two volumes. Does that make the TT morally wrong for trying his best? Or intellectually dishonest when he clearly warns you he is theorizing? It is not unlike rabbanim who make other historical guess in the fact that he too gueses. What is different is that most don't have as high of a miss rate. Which means that you should buy into these theories with a lot of caution and independent research. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:15:16 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> References: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> Message-ID: <20191031021516.GC14724@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 05:18:40PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky > country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never > existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for > farming became less important. Also, when people were eating al taharas qodesh and otherwise were keeping all those halakhos seriously, there was a stronger drive to keep as much of Eretz Yisrael tahor as possible. In addition to pragmatic reasons to save real estate. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself, http://www.aishdas.org/asp "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now, Author: Widen Your Tent at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:20:03 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031022003.GD14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:35:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the > deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh > (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community > norms...)] How can it be? It's not like the chiyuv for the amud is really a chiyuv. Even qaddish is minhag -- and he could say that without taking the amud. For example, they say that R' Yisrael Salanter held that giving the amud to the other aveil is a better zekhus for the niftar than taking it yourself. I think that the main reason why culture so emphasizes this one ritual for aveilus is because of the number of people for which a year of going to shul regularly is the start of taking minyan more seriously for the rest of their lives. So, if we find other ways to encourage shul attendance (Qaddish is still an issue), even that motive is addressed. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a http://www.aishdas.org/asp person is to remain asleep and untamed." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 30 22:02:59 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/19 7:46 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn?t find it) although I?m guessing it?s based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty ? at least in > certain cases). It is indeed based on that. > So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei > mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is > kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] Bread is different, because the gemara specifies bread, and yes, crumbs smaller than a kezayit are beteilim and may be thrown out. AIUI one may deliberately break up a large piece into pieces smaller than a kezayit in order to throw them out. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 31 08:49:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031154951.GA2681@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in > certain cases).... The AhS OC 180:4 says that the worry about crumbs had to do with the Roman shulchan, which was a small one-person thing. And if you permitted the staff to take the table out without gathering the crumbs, they would likely do so even with bigger-than-kezayis pieces. (He even mentions a discussion in the gemara that allows hiring an am ha'aretz as a shamah.) But we today don't take the table out when not eating. (Which is why we need a ke'ara to remove or cover and then restore, as appropriate, at the seder.) The AhS says the problem is that people who wash before bread will disgracefully treat the bread on the floor from previous meals. The MB s"q 10 records a chumerah of not throwing out crumbs that total a kezayis. And, in accordance with the AhS's description of the motive, warns you not to walk on any bread crumbs. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless http://www.aishdas.org/asp he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness. Author: Widen Your Tent Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From penkap at panix.com Tue Nov 5 08:26:36 2019 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: <9D1EF0D1-F323-470E-AC49-C21245FA8691@panix.com> ?Re the discussion about a particular parnassa segula having to do with the disposal of bread, I always thought the best such segula was to get a good education and/or learn a trade. Doesn?t always work, I know, but no segula always works. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:00 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechilla Message-ID: An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:58 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:26 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:42:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Al tochlu mimenu na Message-ID: On the Mesorah list, we are having a discussion about the word "na" (nun-aleph), which often seems to mean "now" or "please". It was also compared to some other synonyms. I interjected that "na" also appears in Shemos 12:9 with an entirely different meaning, "undercooked". R' Zev Sero showed how this meaning is *not* so different after all: > Al tochlu mimenu na means "as it is now", uncooked. > Think "bistro", or "fast food". The fastest food is raw. It is a common error to think that "na" means "raw" here. Rashi on the pasuk defines "na" as "She'eino tzalui kol tzorko - It's not roasted all it needs" Rashi requires the Korban Pesach to be fully roasted, and it seems that even Maachal Ben Drusa'i would count as "na". Similarly, Torah Temimah there (#73 and #81) says that one who eats a Korban Pesach raw ("chai" is his word) has *not* violated this pasuk. (But he did fail to eat it roasted as required.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:06 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") Message-ID: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? The underlying motif of washing hands is ritual purification, similar to immersion in a mikve. The rabbinical decree to wash hands before meals is based on the purification the Kohanim underwent before eating their teruma offerings. The Talmud, however, gives a rather odd rationale for "mayim acharonim", washing hands after the meal. The Sages explained that this washing removes the salt of Sodom, a dangerous salt that can blind the eyes. [Chulin 105b] What is this Sodomite salt? What does it have to do with purification? How does it blind the eyes? Rav Kook explained that to answer to these questions we must understand the basis for the immorality of Sodom. The people of Sodom were obsessed with fulfilling their physical desires. Their concentration on self-gratification led to selfish, egocentric behavior. They expended all of their efforts chasing after material pleasures. No energy was left for helping the stranger; no time remained for kindness towards others. Eating a meal obviously involves sensual pleasure. The rabbis feared that since we eat several times every day, the importance of spirituality that truly perfects man can be decreased. As a preventive measure, the Sages decreed that we wash our hands before eating. This ritual impresses upon us the imagery that we are like the Kohanim, eating "holy" bread baked from teruma. The physical meal we are about to partake now assumes a spiritual dimension. Despite this preparation, the act of eating may to some extent reduce our holiness. Therefore, washing after the meal comes to counteract this negative influence. We wash away the salt of Sodom, the residue of selfish preoccupation in sensual pleasures. This dangerous salt, which can blind our eyes to the needs of others, is rendered harmless through the purification of "mayim acharonim". [Ayn Aya I:21] Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there. Bonnie Raitt Physical strength can never permanently withstand the impact of spiritual force. F.D.R. From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Nov 11 05:06:41 2019 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: <008601d59890$dc8ba6f0$95a2f4d0$@touchlogic.com> From: "Rich, Joel" ...Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? Many years ago (after reading the section in R Dessler on dreams) I had the same question. At the time, I asked R Wolbe z'l how much time/effort I s put into interpreting my dreams. He told me that when he was younger, he had a reoccurring dream and he went to the Chazon Ish to ask its significance and what he should do. He told me that the CI told him that today we not on the madregah that Hashem sends us msgs thru our dreams, and that he should ignore it. Mordechai Cohen From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:57:24 2019 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:57:24 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechila In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)?' Isn't that the same question as why we have the aseres ymei teshuva after RH, not before? After all, the purpose of asking mechila is that we can't have mechila or kapara on mitzvos bein adam l'makom until we've had mechila from those we've trespassed against (with apologies to external liturgy). So the minhag haolam re mechila and the teshuva of aseres ymei teshuva are all part of the same process and issue. The question of why the order of of RH/AYT/YK is what it is has been asked and has a number of approaches. But your question seems just part of that bigger question. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Nov 12 06:00:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Being Sekptical About Skepticism Message-ID: <20191112140022.GA6783@aishdas.org> From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/when-atheists-stole-the-moral-high-ground/ > The Spectator > Nick Spencer > 9 November 2019 > When atheists stole the moral high ground ... > Most of us like to believe that we believe what we believe because > rigorous reasoning and reliable evidence have led us there. Most of us > are wrong. It isn't that reason and evidence play no role in our religion > or lack of it; rather that they are saturated with deeper emotional, > social and practical concerns. As Julian Barnes writes in The Sense of > an Ending: 'Most of us... make an instinctive decision, then build up an > infrastructure of reasoning to justify it.' Du Perron was no doubt very > devout. Today he may well have been devoutly sceptical. But in neither > case is he likely to have been led to his dis/belief through reason alone. > That the emotions matter is well established in the case of religious > belief, as Stephen T. Asma's fine recent study Why We Need Religion > explains. But it is less well recognised when it comes to unbelief, and > particularly the history of unbelief. Here we are still wedded to the > romantic fable of fearless sceptics hacking their way through obscurantist > bigotry, armed with nothing more than their trusty sword of reason. See epigram in signature. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:37:18 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha Message-ID: Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:39:28 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah Message-ID: The chavot yair (252) was asked by a talmid chacham (TC) about the following circumstances: The TC's cousin vowed to provide the TC with weekly wine for Kiddush. The TC would rather use his own wine as he doesn't want to have a freebie with which to do a mitzvah (see Samuel 2.24:24) He fears however it would be stealing to use the provided wine as the cousin would not have given it to him if he knew he wasn't using it for Kiddush. The chavot yair provides a detailed analysis of whether such a condition is truly binding [the whole less than 100% free and clear sale topic is an interesting one - is it not a sale if the condition isn't met or is there a separate obligation] What caught my eye however was his endorsement of the TC's preference to pay for his own kiddush even if the wine wasn't as good! It's not based on the passage from Samuel [I suspect since that case was a purchase from a non-ben brit) but rather because "tfei hiddur v'dikduk mitzvah havi im koneh ladavar mkiso dlo havi msitca d'chinam dmistra milta yesh lanu od rayah mhazohar" it's more of a beautification and scrupulousness in mitzvoth if he buys it himself so it's not free and even though this is clearly logical, we have a proof from the zohar.] My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). My meta guess would've been soneih matanot yichyeh (it's better not to take gifts) but that would require not taking the donated wine at all - which didn't seem up for grabs. Any thoughts other than behavioral economics? (we value our own things more) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:07:29 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") In-Reply-To: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> References: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191118190729.GA14270@aishdas.org> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 09:50:06AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg relayed the following piece from Gold from the Land of Israel, R' Chanan Morrison, adapted from Ein Eyah vol 1 pg. 21: > The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom > and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one > should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? But does it have anything directly to do with the city's evil or its destruction? One would be tempted to say yes, because Lot's wife *looked* back at the Cities of the Plains and was turned to salt. And the thread of melach sedomis is to ones eyesight, of all things. But this is a reference to getting an actual salt that they were using alongside normal table salt (sodium chloride) into one's eyes. There is no need to take this out of the realm of physical danger. Salt extrated from the flats in the area has far more adulteration with potassium chloride than anything we would consume today. (In fact, the modern town of Sedom was built specifically for potash [a mix of potassium compounds, mostly potassium carbonate] works.) So it makes sense in mundane terms -- potassium chloside is a moderate eye irritant, and sites also warn about abrasion in the eye as well. And in fact, to make malach sodomis more symbolic would complicate the Ashkenazi neglect of mayim achronim. We don't wash because the salt isn't used. If the salt were symbolic of Sedom and thus hand-washing more in the territory of impurity, we would need to prove that the lack of using the salt sufficiently weakens the symbolism to allow neglecting the ruling. (Back when RRW was on-list, I noted that the Ashk - Seph split on this backed up a theory he repeated here. According to Prof Agus, Ta Shma and others [not R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik], because many more Ashkneazim came ultimately from EY, rather than the more predominantly Bavli origins of Sepharadim, we can find a number of minhagei Ashk and liturgical elements sources in the Y-mi or Midrashei Halakhah even when against the Bavli. The Bavli gives two reasons for mayim achronim -- a comparison to watchin before the meal, and thus about taharah, and melach sedomis. The Y-mi only mneitons melach sedomis. Which would explain why Ashk feel free not to wash when no such salt is served, but Seph do not.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes http://www.aishdas.org/asp exactly the right measure of himself, and Author: Widen Your Tent holds a just balance between what he can - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:16:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118191623.GB14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:37:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the > period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) The Be'er Heitev says that for men it's only until one counts. Looks like the usual "don't do your own thing you might forget to do the mitzvah" taqanah (but in minhag form). The AhS (s' 9) "vegam `atah yeish nashim" who keep this minhag. But the minhag was ONLY accepted by women and ONLY until sefirah after maariv. What "after maariv" meant for single women in towns where there multiple times for maariv is beyond me. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:29:25 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118192925.GC14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:39:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in > the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the > better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure > additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). I can't answer your "in addition", but in general. One Shabbos haGadol derashah R Menachem Zupnik included the idea that it is better to use wine you bought for the four kosos than wine you got for free (for example, in "shalachmanos"). The idea is that this is actually the finer wine, regardless of the taste of the two wines. And therefore, Ashkenazim would choose white wine they bought over red wine they were given. Whereas Sepharadim prioritize color over taste preference, and therefore over this too. Perhaps it's an issue of "Adam rozeh beqav shelo mitish'ah qavim shel chaveiro." (R Kahana, BM 38a) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 19 15:40:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: <35B73FAF-B266-4A97-980D-07F0F8014233@sibson.com> If one (or a whole community)normally eats sliced apple as part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 04:55:11 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as > part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make > a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for ritual purposes. My understanding is that this is exactly why we are told to have the maror in mind when we say haadamah on the karpas. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Nov 20 13:31:40 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191120213140.GQ29112@aishdas.org> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:55:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > R' Joel Rich asked: >> If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as >> part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make >> a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? > You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a > non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for > ritual purposes. To rephased RAM's answer in the terms I was planning to use... (Just because to the way I think, I find the first sentence below a clear summary.) Whether or not a food it part of the meal has little to do with the kind of food, and more with why it is being eaten. Yes, there are rules of thumb. Like assuming fruit during the meal wasn't really as part of the meal - which RJR's example of waldorf salad violates. Just as RAM's (deleted) example of maror defies the norms for why we eat vegetables during the meal. And is a close parallel to the minhag of eating an apple as part of a siman milsa. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 21 08:43:28 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion Message-ID: Please see the article at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5213 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Interestingly, overnight peeled eggs might actually be permitted according to several authorities, as Rashi (ad loc. s.v. she?avar) when explaining the prohibition omits eggs from the criteria.Additionally, there is some debate among several later poskim about what type of peeled eggs are intended for inclusion in the prohibition - cooked eggs or raw eggs. ohr.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Nov 22 09:11:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] "Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me" (by R/Dr Hillel Goldberg) Message-ID: <20191122171120.GA24498@aishdas.org> R Hillel Goldberg wrote The Fire Within, which inspired me to explore Mussar. (And is long out of print.) Dr Hillel Goldberg's PhD thesis became the book, "Israel Salanter, text, structure, idea: the ethics and theology of an early psychologist of the unconscious". Since, RHG inhereted leadership of the Intermountain Jewish News, published in Denver. He once again inspire me week's opinion colum again inspired me, so I'm including it in full. If you like your arti https://www.ijn.com/yes-directly-moses-speaks-to-me/ :-)BBii! -Micha PS: I noticed that K'tav doesn't list that book title with what I think of as "title caps", and I see RHG didn't do so with the article's title either. If someone could explain the rules of these things to me, off list, I would appreciate it. Bcc: Dr Alan Morinis, R/Dr Hillel Goldberg (Since I didn't take the time to reach out to get permission to share their addresses. Assume I will forward them any replies.) Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me [Rabbi Dr] Hillel Goldberg Nov 21, 2019 Columns, Opinion, View from Denver More venerable than the Kaddish, older than the Haggadah, earlier than Chanukah and Purim. A sense of Jewish history connects a Jew to his roots. It can also cloud those roots. Here is what I mean. If we ask, why be Jewish, Jewish history is one answer. There are many variations on the answer, but each one draws a Jew back in time, fostering a feeling of identity with Judaism or the Jewish people. Even so, these answers rarely take us back far enough. Consider the following reasons for connecting to Jewish history: I want to keep my own family customs alive. I do not want the Holocaust to be the end of the Jewish people. I know my passion for social justice comes from Jews always being the underdog. I relish research into my own genealogy. The more I learn about my past, the more I feel connected to it and proud of it, whether I am an Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe or a Sephardi from Spain, Greece or Iraq. I get the chills when I see Israel reborn. I sit in a philosophy class and feel special pride when Maimonides is held up as a major philosopher. I study about Rabbi Akiva, Rashi and the mystics in Safed, and I know I am connected to an eternal people. In the long arc of Jewish history, all of these examples are relatively recent. They are kind of like touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and feeling connected to the American Revolution more than 240 years ago, but then thinking of standing before the Western Wall, some 2,000 years old. As in, 240 years, big deal! I do not mean to discount my feelings of awe and gratitude upon visiting Independence Hall. But compared to Jewish memory, 240 years is a blink. The thing is, we may say the same even for the 2,000 year-old Western Wall, the most powerful, emotional site in Judaism. My sense of Jewish history may cloud just how far back my roots actually stretch. Just as we may skip over the Holocaust and Maimonides and our personal genealogy to reach back so much further to the Western Wall, we may skip back further still. Take, for example, the one topic that occupies the entire, 2,711 folio-page Babylonian Talmud more than any other: "carrying," the prohibition of transferring objects from one domain to another, or of carrying objects within a public domain, on the Sabbath. For those who do not observe this prohibition, I appeal to your intellectual curiosity. Where did this come from? It originates neither with Maimonides nor in the Talmud. It is not from the ancient Holy Temples nor even from the Prophets of Israel (save one). We stretch back not to the Holocaust 75 years ago, not to Maimonides 800 years ago, not to the Western Wall 2,000 years ago, not even to the Prophet Isaiah, some 2,800 years ago. Our roots go all the way back to the first Prophet, Moses, in the Sinai desert after the Exodus. We recall the generation of the desert, of the liberated Hebrew slaves from Egypt, not just in a ritual (the seder), not just as Jewish history, and not just as abstractions ("the beginnings of the Jewish people" or "the inception of the Jewish-Divine covenantal relationship"). No, we recall Moses in the desert for something very specific that was done then and sustained throughout the generations, down to this very next Shabbos. When the Tabernacle was under construction in the desert, as G-d had commanded in the Book of Exodus, our ancestors volunteered the raw materials, the fibers, precious metals and animal skins out of which the Tabernacle was made. One fine day, on a Shabbos, Moses told the entire encampments of the Israelites: Bring no more! Why? Because on Shabbos one is not to transfer from one domain to another; specifically, from the private domain (the Israelites' homes, their tents) to the public domain, the Levite camp, where Moses was stationed and the Tabernacle was to be constructed (Shabbat 96b). Think of this. On the very next Shabbos that I welcome this year -- me, you, here, right now -- if I refrain from carrying an object out of my home, I am under the spiritual canopy of Moses himself, of my people at its very inception. I am a direct link to the Israelite sojourn in the Sinai desert and to one of the first Words embraced in practice after the revelation at Mount Sinai. I am not just connected to my roots. I am living them. Copyright (C) 2019 by the Intermountain Jewish News From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 06:35:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do beer and whiskey not require bishul Yisroel (Jewish involvement in the cooking)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha A. Bishul akum is prohibited when two conditions are met: a) the food cannot be eaten raw and b) the food is worthy of being ?oleh al shulchan melachim? (served at fancy dinners). Beer and whiskey are made from cooked grains, which are not edible in a raw state. Thus, beer and whiskey satisfy the first condition for bishul akum. Nonetheless, Tosfos (AZ 31b: s.v. V?traveihu) writes that beer is not served at fancy dinners and therefore the second requirement for bishul akum is not present. This explanation suffices for beer, but not for whisky, which is served at fancy dinners. However, Tosfos offers a second explanation why beer is exempt from bishul akum. Although beer is made from the five grains, the bracha is Shehakol and not Mezonos because beer is primarily a water-based drink. By the same token, beer does not acquire a status of bishul akum because it is primarily water. Since water is edible in a raw state, it does not require bishul Yisroel. The same rationale applies to whiskey which is a water-based drink, and as such, does not require bishul Yisroel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 15:15:56 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:15:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav Message-ID: RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did. When a friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush, the Rav began to yell at him saying that this is false. I believe this Rav thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes. However, RSRH, following the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. RSRH writes, "Yet, even if we were incapable of explaining the strange events in this story; even if we were forced to conclude as the Ramban concludes ? , 'Our father Avraham inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land, about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another sin he committed )' ? nevertheless, none of this would perplex us. The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: ?Here you have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!? It does not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust. Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: ?Look upon Me! Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!? We are never to say: ?This must be good and right, because so-and-so did it.? The Torah is not an ?anthology of good deeds.? It relates events not because they are necessarily worthy of emulation, but because they took place. Rav Hirsch's essay about the education of Yaakov and Esav may be read at Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII) There is much wisdom in this essay about education. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Nov 27 11:50:12 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:50:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a > friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav > began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav > thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following > the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to > say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From sholom at aishdas.org Thu Nov 28 06:37:50 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237da176174e2f7bc95386dc5c7b4289@aishdas.org> RZS wrote: > On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >> RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a >> friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav >> began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav >> thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following >> the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to >> say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. > > Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. And Ramban, too? And, if so, RYL made a mistake, too -- the same one that R Noson Slifkin made: "rishonim are allowed to say that, but we're not allowed to say that" ;-) Chodesh Tov, everyone. (And Hodu-Day) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 28 08:57:43 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? Message-ID: I recall being at an Agudah Convention many years ago and being served turkey on Thanksgiving Day! >From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6105 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] Thanksgiving: Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Biur HaGr?a (Yoreh Deah 178: end 7) and Gilyon Maharsha (ad loc. 1). The Gr?a is bothered by the fact that the sugya in Sanhedrin seems to imply differently than the views of the Maharik, Ran, and later, the Rema, that a Chok Goyim, even one that is not a Chok Avodah Zarah should still be prohibited. Others who ask this question and conclude tzarich iyun on the Maharik?s shittah include ... ohr.edu >From the article On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. See the above URL for much more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Nov 28 10:31:05 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a 'holiday' and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving's origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. ---------------------------------------- But they did celebrate Mother's day? Veteran's day? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 1 09:32:10 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeitzei Message-ID: <64993E05-F027-4F31-89BE-8D9D0DF924EF@cox.net> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked. Chapter 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it have to say "from his sleep?" Of course it was from his sleep. All it had to say was: "And Jacob awoke.? Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt...? Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and THEN "And he dreamt...?? So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke ?from his sleep? which is redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if that?s the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first time should just have said ?And Jacob awoke?? I propose the following possible answer: In the first instance, when he had the dream, it was really a prophetic vision and it wasn't an ordinary sleep, hence, the word sleep was omitted. However, after the dream, he slipped into a regular sleep, and therefore it says he "awoke from his sleep.? From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 1 12:04:35 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bananas are Herbs Message-ID: <20191201200432.GF19738@aishdas.org> This video explains the difference between woody plants (trees and shrubs) and herbaceous plants. Bananas are among the talles herbs. And just what is a bannana "tree"'s "trunk"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMfTkDZlFQ So, the scientific taxonomy and hilkhos berakhos agree on this one. A banana is not peri eitz. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 13:31:46 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202213146.GA29446@aishdas.org> Rav Dovid Lifshitz didn't personally eat turkey because of iffyness of saying it fits the requirement for a kosher species of bird to be backed by a mesorah. Not lekhakhah, but as a personal chumerah. And yet R Dovid celebrated Thanksgiving. (Which was a more common sentiment in the refugee generation.) But he did so with a goose dinner. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 23:35:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Thursday Night Chulent Permissible? Message-ID: <20191203073543.GA8739@aishdas.org> I would strongly dis-recommend chulent before Shabbos lunch. (Be glad I am not yours or anyone's poseiq.) Here is my argument against. The Shabbos daytime meal is supposed to be more important than Friday night's meal. One is supposed to save their favorite dishes for lunch. The gemara even mentions chamin as one such food that should be saved! So what is Thu or Fri night chulent? It is taking a food invented for the purpose of contributing to making Shabbos lunch the high point of the week's food and being too impatient to get one's treat to show proper kevod Shabbos. Rashi (Gittin 38b) says that people who make Fri night the greater meal should fear punishment! See also AhS OC 271:9, who finds what he calls a "limmud zekhus" for people who serve their most special foods Fri night -- many of them aren't as enjoyable the next morning. But he says this is why we have kugel and chulent, foods that can remain on the fire all night. After seeing what is said about not saving special food for Shabbos lunch, and chulent is designed to be that special food, and having it Friday night, al achas kamah vekamah serving it before Shabbos altogether! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From t613k at mail.aol.com Tue Dec 3 09:31:18 2019 From: t613k at mail.aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] R' Osher Katz -- Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna In-Reply-To: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130117873.1655613.1575394278828@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends and Family, I would not normally send out something so personal but my brother-in-law, R' Osher Katz, was diagnosed with cancer three months ago -- Stage 4 -- and he has not yet begun treatment, because, for complicated reasons, he has no insurance and very low income. There is treatment that offers hope of a complete remission but it is unbelievably expensive. We have tried reaching out to many Jewish and secular organizations, so far with little result. My daughter Naomi has created this campaign with The Chesed Fund to raise funds for him to begin treatment. This is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. Scholarly Rabbi Can't Afford Cancer Treatment | The Chesed Fund PS Many people give anonymously because it's a public site and they don't want their name up there, so I don't know who gives and who doesn't. If you can't afford to give don't worry, don't feel pressured but say a kapitel please for a refuah sheleimah for Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna. --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com From ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 5 11:55:02 2019 From: ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca (Ari Meir Brodsky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Tonight (Thursday evening) begin Prayer for Rain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my annual friendly reminder.... Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily prayers, beginning with Maariv tonight (Thursday evening), December 5, 2019, corresponding to the evening of 8 Kislev, 5780. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. [Sephardim replace the entire blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to Prof. Lasker for the reminder.] I encourage everyone to remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at that time. Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/veten-tal-u-matar/ (Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.) And it's been raining this evening here in Israel, thank God! Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka, -Ari Meir Brodsky --------------------- Ari M. Brodsky Teaching Fellow Department of Mathematics Bar-Ilan University Ramat-Gan 5290002 ISRAEL ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 8 07:15:44 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayishlach Brotherly Love Message-ID: <52DF2CD4-5DD1-44B6-AAEE-C16FB12F5232@cox.net> One of the most moving scenes in the entire Torah is when Esau and Jacob meet after 20 years. Chapter 33, verse 4, says: "Esau ran toward him, embraced him, fell upon his neck, and kissed him; then they wept." The Netziv points out that all the verbs in this verse are in the first person and refer to Esau. "He ran, he embraced him; hefell upon his neck, he kissed him and they cried." All the verbs are in the (third person) singular, except the last one: "theycried." Both Jacob and Esau cried?such human drama and emotion! They cried. That's the very factor that made their meeting a success. Without both feeling the emotion, neither could feel the emotion. The connection of brothers is a paradigm for the connection of nations. We need each other, and in order to laugh together, we first must cry together. The Netziv goes on to say the day will come when Esau will truly embrace his brother Jacob in honest unadulterated compassion, then both brothers will cry in happiness. May we live to see this day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 9 09:38:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Balancing Observance and the Interpersonal Message-ID: <20191209173824.GA32478@aishdas.org> By R' Eliezer Eisenberg Teaser: Havolim Thursday, December 05, 2019 Vayeitzei. Reconciling LeChaveiro with LaMakom Overview After Yaakov had a dream where he received nevuas Elokim that told him to leave Lavan, why did he seek Rachel and Leah's advice and consent about leaving? 1. Rav Gifter When your mitzva creates a burden for another person, you have to discuss it with him first. 2. The Shlah, Reb Moshe, and lhbchlch Rav Sternbuch Mitzvos should be done with the understanding that they are Hashem's gifts to us. It is wrong to do them because we have no choice, and consider them to be burdens and hardships that we have to endure. It is important to understand this ourselves, and to explain to everyone involved why the mitzva is so right and so good, in order that they should realize and appreciate that Hashem gave us the mitzva for our to'eles. 3. The Seforno per Reb Chaim Brown Yaakov wasn't asking whether to go. He assumed they would go, but was asking for advice about the best way to go - should he tell Lavan, or sneak away. 4. Abarbanel The Abarbanel says in 28:16, on the story of the Sulam, that Yaakov made the neder because he wasn't sure if his vision was a prophecy or just a dream. This was, he says, Yaakov's first experience with Nevu'ah, so, as was the case with Shmuel Hanavi, he was not sure what had happened. If so, perhaps we can say the same is true here, that Yaakov wasn't be 100% sure whether it was nevu'ah or just a dream. I don't like this approach. It was not the first time, and he certainly knew by then that it was Nevu'ah. 5. RDNJS and ENE, crystallized by a he'ara from Rav Moish Pollack. This event is a perfect example of [baderekh shehadam rotzeh leileikh molikhin oso]. It seems clear that that the tzivui of Hashem was catalyzed by Yaakov's personal choice, by Yaakov's decision to follow this particular path. That being the case, Yaakov was obligated to discuss it with the people whose entire lives were affected by his choice. I really like this explanation because of how well it fits the order of pesukim and shtims with the story of Miriam and Aharon against Moshe. Discussion ... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:45:46 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ??? ??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????: The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it) [X] THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:47:02 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:47:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered Message-ID: Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide goes out" N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. Me- it's all about the demographics G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her original drive A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with women's issues.) E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold! Me- troop levels seem dangerously low M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it? E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. Me- see comment above Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. Me- or maybe yes C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic tradition. Me- amen. As in "instant classic" Really now Israel defines our Judaism. Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this] R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. Me- I hope that's true H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. Me- Ger vtoshav? From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 11 12:37:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211203708.GE8671@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together. > [Tur YD 116] ... because it is "qasheh latzara'as". And I think the tzara'as connection is key. Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a spiritual element. > The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) > seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef > [BY OC 173] Pesachim 76b. Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the "davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as. > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since > this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition > got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo > refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it) https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38 Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M. So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam (Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From zev at sero.name Thu Dec 12 16:05:33 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 12 18:52:32 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 02:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> References: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> Message-ID: On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. ------------------------- I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Mon Dec 16 08:23:08 2019 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I agree with Joel, not so simple. A few thoughts: 1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we are not meant to follow. 2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat (which only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small fish bones, which could lead to choking. 3. Source: the actual Gemara states: Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig]. Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it bad for odor and davar acher." Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous, rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first - if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor? 4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen: https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/ While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides, this study finds that fattier meat produces more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/ 5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy (?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like condition. 6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger; therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be understood ? and taught ? as merely customary. Alexander Seinfeld >On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. >>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the >>prohibition got extended so far > >It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can >cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. >------------------------- >I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the >danger >Kt >Joel rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Dec 17 09:58:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:58:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival Message-ID: For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/ [https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish Holidays - ou.org Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ... www.ou.org This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/ YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Dec 17 14:19:31 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. He starts off with: Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept. Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to ?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal. While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*. Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to the next generation. American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog. He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Dec 18 00:52:11 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> References: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> Message-ID: He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom ______________________________________________ I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century) THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 19:03:39 2019 From: hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com (Harry Maryles) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. ... > He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO > intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr > L'Goyim. Here are my thoughts: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1 HM Sent from my iPhone, Shirley. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:27:57 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] thanksgiving Message-ID: My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back: 1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?) 2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it as such) KT from a dual citizen Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:29:26 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them out there? KT Joel Rich From acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 05:32:33 2019 From: acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com (Allen Gerstl) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud. As a part of Talmud, Science (Maasei Bereishit) and Metaphysical Philosophy (Maasei Merkavah) involves knowing the works of HKBH with the goal of doing so to become closer to Him through evoking what is ultimately deep love (Ahava) of HKBH and wanting to "partner" with him in also helping the world fulfill His will and achieving such closeness. Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have explained this many times in this treatise. God is near to all who call Him, if they call Him in truth, and turn to Him. He is found by every one who seeks Him, if he always goes towards Him, and never goes astray. ..." This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models in our history. Kol Tuv, Eliyahu Gerstl, Toronto, Canada From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 18 14:51:09 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:19:31PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > See > https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ and part 2: https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world-part-2/ I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. 1. To start with the banal... The "hedgehog" metaphor isn't just about finding your company's strength and running with it. It's also about prioritizing other things out. We use the term all the time at work. We're not writing our own low-latency networking layer because there are people who do that full time. Our hedgehog is trading systems; why waste time doing something ourside that bailiwick -- find the company for whom low latency networking is their hedgehog. So, to really use the idea here would mean to leave learning to the yeshivish, davening to chassidim, go out of kiruv since Chabad does it, and just focus on leOr Goyim. Let everyone do what they do best, and hire out the other jobs to those who do each of those jobs best. Yissachar and Zevulun, but on steroids. The idiom was misused. (Totally irrelevant; it just felt good to get that off my chest.) 2. Second, a movement is a group of people who gather around an Ism, not the other way around. You can't save Mod-O by giving them a different ideal, even one you feel is related to their current one. That's killing one movement by creating a new thing to attract its adherents. Nothing too terrible. After all, the only value in a movement is whether it generates fealty to Torah umitzvos, not as an end in itself. You can't just tell people "here's your new ideal now". (Which is basically the same as RJR's point.) That mod-O crowd would have to buy into this leOr Goyim Ism for themselves. You can't just propose it in a Lehrhaus article. Look how many decades of leadership it took RYBS to put his fingerprint on the Mod-O ideal, and even that was only in the realm of nuance about what "u" means, and what "mada" does. You expect to totally redirect the community without having a rabbi's rabbi at the helm? Then figure out how to fire up a grass roots movement. Because we are not talking about a "hedgehog", we are talking about what idea people should put front-and-center in their life's mission statement. The target here is diaspora Mod-O. This leOr Goyim wouldn't be attractive to somoene living in a Jewish State. Nor to someone who doesn't believe in a Torah-and hashkafah with its openness to participating in general society. But it's not Mod-O's current Ism in any way similar in emphasis or behavior. 3. As for Torah uMada... I wrote here a couple of times that I don't think it speaks well to the masses. First, because RYBS's vision of "mada" really only appeals to the academically inclined. Second, because his "u" is dialectical. Not too many people even know what a neo-Kantian means by dialectic. It's not a synthesis. It is not compartmentalization of two opposites. It's finding meaning in their interplay, without expecting to get to resolution. Can the masses do that with Torah uMadda? Or are the outcome inevitably going to be primarily a population of compromizers and a population of compartmentalizers? TuM thus has the rare problem that imperfect following of this ideal is actually worse than not chasing it at all. Because it gives motive to compromising one's fealty to Torah! TiDE doesn't have these problems, since DE has more to do with being a refined human being as defined by being cultured. High culture, not academic knowledge. And synthesis, not dialetic. The Tzitz Eliezer, in a festschrift for RSRH, described TiDE as a hylomorphism (a tzurah vachomer). That derekh eretz is the substance to which a person is supposed to give Torah's form. AND, TiDE includes much of what R Gil Perl writes about here. But without making it the front-and-center. The idea of Yaft Elokim leYefes veYishkon be'ohalei Sheim is not just that Sheim should benefit from Yefes's yofi, but that Sheim has the job of being the moral and spiritual voice in the partnership. But again, making that aspect of things the centerpiece of the movement would be something new. 4. In terms of defensibility... We are given the whole Torah project in order that we be a "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh". Hashem introduced maamad Har Sinai with those words. Arguably the Torah is to the Jews as the Jews are supposed to be to the world -- the means of obtaining Devar Hashem. But, aniyei irekha qodmin... How do you make a movement about bringing Hashem's values to non-Jews that doesn't invest more effort in doing the same to our fellow Jews? The dialectic (sorry!) between universalism and Jewish particularlism can't be thrown out the window. Although, Universalism is in now, Jewish particularism being too close to the lately much maligned ideal of nationalism. I am not saying the idea that the Torah can be viewed as a way to make us a priesthood caste to the rest of the world is false. I am just wondering if that way of viewing the Torah can possibly attract people well enough to build a new movement around. And in fact in much of part II, RGP himself spells out reasons why, for which his solutions fall flat to my ear. The Post-Modern era is not one in which the idea of spreading the message to others is going to win adherents. His answer is to sure to brand on LeOr Goyim instead of Or laGoyim, to inform rather than to preach. "My calling is not to convince you of their certitude, but to humbly offer you a glimpse of their beauty." But it is exactly the kind of subtlety that would get lost in the translation to a mass movement. One slides into the other and out of fitting with the times. 5. OTOH, what is exciting many Mod-O Jews today on a spiritual plane is what a famous Jewish Action article (somewhat incorrectly) labeled Neo-Chassidus. A worldview built on the Peiczeza and Nesivos Shalom, Tanya, Bilvavli and the Chalban. With the music of Carlebach and lots of epigrams by Rav Nachman. The opposite direction from reaching out.... Deveiqus. A Me-and-G-d way of viewing Judaism. We even have a similar problem in The Mussar Institute. (Whose audience are "spiritually seeking Jews", primarily from the non-O world.) People are getting so caught up in middah work, the reaching in, that I have a personal agenda to focus on the bein adam lachaveiro part of R Yisrael Salanter's message. Perfection in middos being their maximizing our ability to be givers (REED), to be nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chazkel), leheitiv im hazulas (R Shimon Shkop), etc... Selling an Other-Focused Judaism, even one with a universalist spin, may not be the world's easiest sell. Myself, I would push an Other-Focused Judaism too, but without the deemphasis of ahavas Yisrael in favor of ahavas haberios. And, for that matter, leheitiv im hazulas applies to physical chessed to my wife, family, friends and neighborhood well before the hatavah of teaching the world what the Torah has to offer. My spirituality starts with concern for my stomach and your soul. If only I knew how to make that message attractive in a world where products are made popular by putting the word "I" in front of their names. But that's where my own quest as moved since the days when this list began. Mussar is a good idea, and one I hadn't given up on. But it never was a mass movement, and likely something that requires that much work never could be. But could in theory be practiced by anyone is a Torah based on the idea that Hillel's saying that the whole Torah is "de'alakh sani, lechaverkho lo sa'avid" was means seriously, or that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is a kelal gadol even after you leave the poster behind when you leave the 2nd grade classroom. A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit. If only I knew how to fight those elements of the zeigeist. But then, I am not trying to rebuild an already existing movement. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:00 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cellphones on Shabbos Message-ID: There is currently a thread on Areivim titled "more than one quarter of MO youth admit to using their phones on Shabbos", in which R' Danny Schoemann commented: > And I'm sure on Avoda we've discussed why and how using a phone > is Chillul Shabbos. If not, then maybe we should. I can very easily understand people for whom the temptation is so great that they succumb occasionally or even often. But I don't think that's what you're asking. Are you suggesting that these kids honestly don't realize that using a cell phone on Shabbos is assur? It seems to me: Even the most basic listing of the 39 Melachos is more complicated than is needed for this discussion. A discussion of Kavod Shabbos would also be counterproductive. Just ask them: "You don't turn lights on and off, do you? What the difference between that and everything that lights up on the screen?" Or ask them: "You wouldn't write something with pen and paper, would you? How is texting any different?" I concede that if we wanted to, we could get involved with all sorts of lomdish chakiras to answer those questions. But none will make a nafka mina regarding mutar/assur. They are all d'Oraisa/d'Rabanan distinctions, distracting us from the main point, which is that there is no way to use a cellphone on Shabbos except for legitimate medical needs. Kol hamosif gore'a. Comments? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Dec 18 14:37:11 2019 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:37:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel Message-ID: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah related): "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23)? Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information about this?? I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers.? Joseph Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 15:29:25 2019 From: rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> R. Micha, Thank you for including me on this rich and thoughtful post. Here are my thoughts, responding to some of your points in the order that you made them. - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? Did Chabad always emphasise the outreach which has become their trademark activity? I also wonder if the comparison can be made with the other movements that Rabbi Perl mentioned. Chabad, religious Zionism, Torah Im Derech Eretz and the yeshivah movement were all started by ideological leaders with a particular agenda. Was this so of Modern Orthodoxy? I guess what I'm questioning is whether Modern Orthodoxy is based on some kind of founding ideal and agenda which would be transformed if we were to go the path Rabbi Perl is suggesting. - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development in the Modern Orthodox community. It remains to be seen how much can be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer to is instructive. - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate central concept for the community. - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work you have given to the cause over decades. But doesn't a life commitment to Talmud Torah take work? Doesn't the Chabad shlichus demand self-sacrifice for others? I'm sure there are ways to respond to this, making chilukim, etc. but I am not as inclined to rule out the broad acceptance of an approach to middot, chesed, nosei b'ol, etc in our communities. As you know, I'm working on a conference to set a process in motion. If you don't try, you won't know! Best, Anthony Check out The Rise Together Project at and my website at Rabbi Anthony Knopf From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:58:07 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191222185807.GA18920@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:03pm CST, R Harry Maryles pointed us to his blog post "Of Hedgehogs and Ideology" at written in response to R Gil Perl's two-part essay on The Lerhaus. Responding to RHM's blog post: ... > That said, I do not believe that Modern Orthodoxy should make being an > or LaGoyim its passion no matter how noble it is. In my view it should be > defined the way it is traditionally defined as adhering to the ideology > of Torah U'Madda (TuM). And skipping ahead to his close for a minute: > Does that leave Modern Orthodoxy bereft of the hedgehog concept? > Perhaps. But in my view using a Mitzvah that does not really define what > we are really about in order to excite passion in us will in my view - > not work. I thought of this while responding to a very different conversation on Facebook. Someone advocated a more meiqil approach to halakhah on the grounds that the way O is done is scaring people away. I made two objections: C was only one failed attempt at this approach -- it just doesn't work. People just don't bother conforming to the lower standard. The other objection ended with an on-topic one-liner: You can't save something by redefining it. But it matters less here. We don't really need to save Mod-O as much as maximizing the shemiras Torah umitzvos of people who affiliate Mod-O. So, assuming I thought people would stay with that affiliaiton even as the movement redefined itself, I wouldn't object. But personally, the resulting movement wouldn't be for me. As I see it, halakhah has me prioritize those closer to me ahead of those further -- so immediate family, friends, aniyei iri, etc... and much further down are non-Jews. The triage doesn't fit making providing Kol Yaaqov to the community dialog our highest priority. The other problem is that I already bought into Mussar's adage that "my ruchnius means concern for my soul and your stomach". (Something the pre-War chassidishe rebbe who was the rav of the shtielb of my childhood also regularly said.) When it comes to others, gashmi aid is a higher priority than moral education. Again, a different triage. > Rabbi Perl rejects that. He references R' Norman Lamm who - as he points > out - literally wrote the book on that subject. Rabbi Lamm says that > TuM is not an ideology but rather pedagogy - a means of `arriving at > knowledge of the Creator through the avenues of science and the arts'. > In my view, that is a distinction without a difference. Aren't all > Orthodox Jewish ideologies ultimately about that? YU-style Mod-O is indeed Mod Yeshivish. The RIETS morning is no less a child of Volozhin than Lakewood is. But it's not true that "all Orthodox Jewish ideologies" are about "arriving at knowledge of the Creator". The Rambam would go for that. But chassidishe deveiqus is about having a relationship with the Borei, not learning about him. Knowing G-d, rather than knowing *about* G-d. More on this in a reply REGerstl's email, which became its own thread about the Rambam's notion of life's purpose. ... > Not only that, but TuM need not be studied only by > the elite anymore than Torah should. We each do the best we can with > the capabilities God gave to us to do it. Perhaps if you stick with *should*, but what's the motivator for learning mada for the majority of MO Jews? It's not overtly one of the 613, and the person isn't academic by nature, what's driving that time investment into secular studies. And where in the entire span of secular studies are they to choose among if they don't have a personal drive to pick up academic knowledge? On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:29:25PM +0000, R Anthony Knopf replied to my post, writing: > - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their > point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? ... Evolve is different than reinvent. Theseus's Paradox is a thought experiment about the ship Theseus sailed in stories recorded by Plutarch. During the course of his travels, say a sail tore and was replaced. Is it the same ship? Maybe on the next trip, he replaced the mast. Let's say over the course of his lifetime, every single plank and board in that ship was replaced. Theseus would have had continuous use of a ship, at all times it sure seemed like the same ship, and yet there is nothing in it now that was in the original. Is it the same ship? Identity evolves differently than sudden redefinition. But this is a bit off coarse. We're getting more caught up in whether, if the Mod-O infrastructure and membership would largely go for a leOr Goyim ideology, if they would still be Mod-O or not. Which gets more into the definition of a movement than either issues of right or wrong or of feasibility. I really wanted to focus on feasibility. I don't think MO membership would feel they're on the same ship if this were attempted. And so, it wouldn't work. > - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus > article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. > And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a > powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development > in the Modern Orthodox community... I think the question of ultimate purpose is a critical one, regardless of who we're talking about. I recently ran a workshop to help people write life- > be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of > "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer > to is instructive. But it manages to do so without leaving Torah uMada. It seems the Brisker tenor of Mod-Yeshivish a la RYBS is a less deeply held emotional issue. The feeling that we're staying on the same core idea is still there. After all, my youth included some very neo-Chassidus like moments at NCSY kumzeitzin. > - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding > an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the > difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than > "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of > Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent > academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate > central concept for the community. I do to, but... > - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a > popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work > you have given to the cause over decades... > But doesn't a life > commitment to Talmud Torah take work? But then, the learning that has become most popular is daf yomi. You get a feeling of acocmplishment. It's like the difference between a second hand and an hour hand on a watch. The second hand is doing 3,600 times the work, but you can see it working. An hour hand.... Working on middos is slow. There is no "I finished my first mesechta" or "500 blatt" or whatever. You work and you work, and eventually you notice the hour hand is pointing to a new hour when your wife says something about how you've been with the kids lately. And even that is months or years away from then you started. Well, now that I have split my dream into two, I can more easily articulate it. I hope. A central idea for AishDas is to plant the seed of "a vaad in every shul", paralleling the spread of daf Yomi. We had other ideas that we would "get to later", but really the only project we ever invested effort in was the spread of ve'adim. My dream was not that you would have a whole movement of people actively working on their middos. Halevai you could, but as you just noticed, I don't think the masses are ready for years and years of work before seeing signficant results. Character change is slow. Rather, I thought that the existence of those 5-6 people in the va'ad would have secondary effects on the rest of the shul. All the value we're supposed to be giving ehrlachkeit would stay in the discussion. We would be able to see a Yahadus in which how you act on line for the bus is no less a defining feature of who is "one of us" as is what a person eats. More recently, really since I was waiting for the editing of my sefer, I started trying to put another buzzword out there -- Other-Focused Orthodoxy. Because there has to be exploration on how to get to an ehrlachkeit-centered rather than frummkeit-centered observance through ways other than hoping the kind of people AishDas was reaching to would have cultural influence on the kelal. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:19:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] The Rambam's Hedgehog (was: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191222181924.GA22988@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:32pm GMT, R Eliyahu Gerstl responded to RGP's thesis: > I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's > concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct > to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be > considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. > The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch > davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: > Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud... I don't see two points here in the Rambam, Yesodei haTorah 2:1-3 and Hil' Talmud Torah 1:11. In YhT the Rambam defines ahavas H' and yir'as Hashem in terms of a thirst to know about G-d. Because, as I wrote above (in response to RHM), it seems to me the Rambam defines his "deveiqus" (as REG puts it) as an intellectual unity. "What is the way to love Him and feel yir'ah for Him? When a person contemplates His Actions and His Creations, which are nifla'im gedolim, and sees His Chokhmah in it... immediately he love, praises, glorifies, and mis'aveh ta'avah gedolah ot know the sheim hagadol..." First, in TT 1:11, the shelish betalmud is halachic dialectic -- "... until he knows what are the iqar of the midos [shehaTorah nideshes bahen] and how to extract what is assur and what is mussar, andthe like, from what he studied from the oral tradition." Not aggadita. We do find aggadita included with Mada in YhT 2:2 as the means to ahavas veyir'as Hashem. Different mitzvos than TT. To skip to the end of this post too because I want to respond to it together with the above: > This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing > on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of > HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by > a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models > in our history. What neo-Chassidus shows is that the Mod-O Jew is looking for some experiential / emotional Judaism. But in any case, I don't think the Rambam's parallel to deveiqus is a major element in today's hashkafic discourse. Too cerebral, too much aimed only at the academic. I also amnot sure the Rambam's hashkafah was particularly popular among Chazal either. > Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 To me, the core thought of this last pereq of the Moreh is his ranking of the 4 types of perfection the gemara expects of a navi -- wealth, health, intellect and middos. The Rambam flips the last two, not only in the order he presents them, but the Rambam is clear that these are asvending types of perfection. That only intellectual perfection is a permanent refinement of the most core part of the self: The fourth kind of perfection is the true perfection of man: the possession of the highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards God. With this perfection man has obtained his final object; it gives him true human perfection; it remains to him alone; it gives him immortality, and on its account he is called man. Examine the first three kinds of perfection, you will find that, if you possess them, they are not your property, but the property of others; according to the ordinary view, however, they belong to you and to others. But the last kind of perfection is exclusively yours... And as REG also quoted: > ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by > him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the > knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the > manner in which it influences His creatures in their production > and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will > then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, > and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have > explained this many times in this treatise. Really, more so than middos and character? And so I thought for decades, until I saw RYBS said differently. Not that I understand how RYBS reaches that concludion, given how much of pereq 54. And the opening chapters of the Moreh about how the eitz hadaas messed up the pursuit of knowledge by introducing precondition steps; the definition of nevu'ah as an overflow from the Active Intellect; 3:18 where he defines a homo sapien's personhood in proportion to their knowledge, so that a person receives hashgachah peratis is proportional to yedi'ah; and 3:51 and the castle garden metaphor at the start of the Moreh's closing section. Really, it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the Moreh Nevuchim. BUT RYBS understands this section of 3:54 as saying that even yedi'ah isn't the end of the human endevor, chesed, mishpat and tzedaqah are. Looking at pereq 53: This chapter encomapsses the meanig of three sheimos that needs explaining: chesed, mitzpat, and tzedaqah. And so on, until: We have shown that "chesed" refers to gemilus chesed gamur, and "tzedaqah" to any good that one does because of the loftiness of middos, to thereby complete one's nefesh, and "mishpat" sometimes has an outcome of neqamah, and sometimes tov. We already epxlained how distant attributes are [from theology][ that any attribute one attributes to the Deity yisbarakh in the books of nevi'im is an attribute of action. ... And then the Rambam returns to this idea later in 54. The navi does not content himself with explaining that the knowledge of G-d is the highest kind of perfection; for if this only had been his intention, he would have said, ... He says, however, that man can only gain praise for himself in the knowledge of G-d and in the knowledge of His "Ways and Attributes", which are His actions, as we have shown (MN 1:54) in expounding the passage, "har'eini na es Kevodekha" (Exod. 38:13). We are thus told in this passage that the Divine acts which ought to be known, and ought to serve as a guide for our actions, are, ch??es, mishpat, antzedaqah." Another very important lesson is taught by the additional phrase, "ba'aretz." It implies a fundamental principle of the Torah; it rejects the theory of those who boldly assert that God's providence does not extend below the sphere of the moon, and that the earth with its contents is abandoned, that "azav H' es ha'aretz" (Yechezqeil 8:12). It teaches, as has been taught by the greatest of all wise men in the words, "Lashem ha'atez umloa'ah" (Shemos 9:29), that His providence extends to the earth in accordance with its nature, in the same manner as it controls the heavens in accordance with their nature.... And so on. So far, all about knowledge of HQBH. Even chesed, tzedaqah umishpat are about knowing *Hashem's* HZu"M, and that there is hashgachah in this world. And then, this: The navi thus, in conclusion, says, "ki ba'eileh chafatzti, ne'um H'" i.e., My object [in saying this] is that you shall practise HZu"M the earth. In a similar manner we have shown (MN 1:54) that the object of the enumeration of H's 13 Middos is the lesson that we should acquire similar attributes and act accordingly. The object of the above passage is therefore to declare, that the perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired -- as far as this is possible for man -- the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek HZu"M, and thus to imitate the ways of G-d. We have explained this many times in this treatise. So, the purpose of all this knowledge is to know what to emulate. And yet the perfection of the knowledge is a greater perfection than the perfection of the middos one acquired by emulation? What am I missing? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 16:11:11 2019 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: In Avodah v37n97, one of R'Micha's last thoughts was > A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit < which brings us back to TiDE and RSRH's Mensch Yisrael. --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 03:18:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > What percentage of people would like to know how they are > really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self- > image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not > telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them > out there? Personally, I would love to know about the things I do that are viewed negatively by others. If I had that information, I could either correct my actions, or I could explain myself to them and thereby improve their views of me, and possibly even improve how *they* act. However, as much as I would like that, I generally do not tell others when I view them negatively. To do so successfully requires a great deal of tact and sensitivity, and experience has shown me that I usually fail when I attempt these things. I believe that this approach is supported by the halachos of Tochacha: attempt to correct people, but first, do no harm. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 24 23:14:21 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 07:14:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv Message-ID: From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, it should be done by example. My response: Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner consistent with the will of HKB"H. If the result is we are mekarev them (as imho it would be if we act this way), great BUT that is not our ultimate goal (much as we don't do mitzvot for reward, it's an ancillary benefit) Your thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Dec 26 09:42:22 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=96_A_Torah_View?= Message-ID: https://rabbiefremgoldberg.org/audio_listing/celebrating-birthdays-a-torah-view/ I think that many will be surprised by this talk. There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 26 20:05:48 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 04:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=E2=80=93_A_Torah_View?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F184740-02E5-426B-85CE-342B8AA10C63@sibson.com> There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL ______________________________________________ I gave a shiur on this a number of years back. My main take away was it should be used as an opportunity for reflection, Not A celebration per se Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 20:07:55 2019 From: jmeisner at gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:07:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel In-Reply-To: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:36 AM Joseph Kaplan via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel > in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in > Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah > related): > > "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah > scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival > in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who > were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, > etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23< > https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/babylonian_exile/>)? > > Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: > > ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any > assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely > the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during > this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the > assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information > about this?? > > I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about > is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows > what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article > and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical > sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher > butchers.? > I assume that the author was taking creative license based on Sanhedrin 38a, which states more generally that the galus of Tzidkiyahu was pushed earlier so that they would arrive while the charash and the masger of the galus of Yechonya were still alive. To address RDYL's question, what would such help have looked like? A brigade of soldiers (or elephants)? A steady stream of volunteers? Massive infusions of gold that could be used to buy modern weaponry on the black market? Considering the distance between Bavel and Eretz Yisroel and the difficulty in traveling between one and the other, this question may have a very modern bias to it. I was going to suggest that the king of Persia may have further objected to any of this assistance leaving his territory, but, according to Wikipedia, the Parthians did not conquer Bavel until shortly after the neis of Chanukah, prior to which it was until the control of the... Seleucids. Hence, the Seleucid governor of Bavel certainly would not have approved of any aid being provided to the rebellion in Eretz Yisroel. Did the decrees against Torah in Eretz Yisroel also apply in Bavel? I've never heard this discussed. More generally, it seems that we (or maybe just I?) know little about the Jews of Bavel during the time period in question. Ezra (and perhaps Zerubavel) left there a couple of centuries earlier, while Nechemya left from and Mordechai and Esther were in Paras. There are a handful of tanna'im called Bavli'im, but the center of the chachmei hamishnah was clearly in Eretz Yisroel. While it's conceivable (although perhaps not likely) that there were direct lines from the yeshivos of the charash and masgeir to the yeshivos of Rav and Shmuel, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was strong religious leadership the whole time that would have coordinated such an assistance drive for the Chashmona'im. Just a few thoughts. A lichtige Chanukah (What's the origin of this phrase, by the way?), Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Mon Dec 30 05:19:42 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Anti-Semitism is Out of Control Message-ID: <7172577B-31F7-4CA0-B25C-35C37FB57BFF@cox.net> It is imperative to address the rampant anti-Semitism which is on the rise exponentially. Please watch the following (under) 10 minute television interview of former NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind. It is time we realize that the laws of the ?rodef? definitely apply to the anti-Semite. https://www.foxnews.com/media/dov-hikind-hanukkah-stabbing-new-york-anti-semitism From micha at aishdas.org Tue Dec 31 22:03:37 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 01:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro Message-ID: <588c3f15-5b25-452b-9857-ca858cb7cd12@Michas-iPad> CC: RRYE So, RRYEisenman's recent Short Vort has been making the rounds. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1815470 (Carried as OpEd pieces in both The Yeshiva World and Matzav.) RRYW writes: Op-Ed: Important "Checklist" Of Things To "Bring" To The Siyum Hashas December 31, 2019 11:00 am As the horrifying events of Monsey are still so fresh in our minds, coupled with other over manifestations of anti-Semitism in the New York area, it behooves all of us to rethink our preparations for the great convocation of Jews on Wednesday in Met-Life Stadium. ... Keep in mind that this event is a momentous one for Kavod HaTorah and for Kavod Shomayim. The last-minute items to remember to pack: 1. SMILE a. Most important: remember to bring your best smile with you. ... e. Keep in mind that all of the workers, security people, police, maintenance people, cleaning staff, parking attendants and anyone else working are human beings. f. These are the same human beings who our Sages say about them, "Beloved are human beings, for they was created in the image of Hashem...as it says, "For in the image of G-d, He made human beings". (Genesis 9:6) g. You must smile when you see someone created in the image of Hashem. h. Can you think of any other greater irony than for 100,000 plus people who are the children of Hashem who have come to give honor to Hashem, not recognizing those who are also created in His image? i. Smile, smile and smile more at each and every person you meet. 2. Happy New Year! a. These people are all working on what is to them one of the most important and universally observed holidays: the day which is called New Years Day. b. It is totally irrelevant that these people are also getting paid ... 3. Thank You a. This might be the most important item to remember to bring. ... Most importantly, we have the opportunity to bring Kavod and honor to His Holy name. Note his repeated appeal to bein adam laMaqom (BALM) terms. Smile at a person because he is a tzelem E-lokim and it is part of giving honor to HQBH. Or qiddush hasheim / avoid chillul hasheim. And this theme came up more in discussions of this OpEd on social media. But I have an open question about this strategy that I have been chewing on for years. Maybe people here have opinions. We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom. And so, in the short run, it makes sense to sell bein adam lachaveiro by emphasizing the BALM aspects of it -- respecting Hashem by respecting a tzelem E-lokim, and chillul vs. qiddush hasheim. But... I am not sure if I like the message or not. Isn't the road out of this whole mess a realization that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is the more central principle of the Torah? If we reinforce the idea that it is only "really" against the Torah is it interferes with my relating to the Creator, will we be in the same boat a generation from now? Are we getting people to do the right thing, and atttidue will follow any behaviors we can encourage? Can we create the right habit this way? Or are we reinvorcing the imbalanced attitude, and we'll never get out of this "frumkeit" hole? I have picked up the conundrum repeatedly since starting on my book. I don't have an answer, though. Your thoughts? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and http://www.aishdas.org/asp this was a great wonder. But it is much more Author: Widen Your Tent wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "mensch"! -Rav Yisrael Salanter From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 1 18:49:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Av Message-ID: A thought for Tu B'AV: R'SBG (taanit 30b) designates the two most yamim tovim (holidays) Yom Kippur and Tu B'av. While the gemara lists a number of events which occurred on Tu B'av, I've always been partial to Yom Tvar Hamaagal (the day they stopped cutting wood for the wood pile). Initially I favored it as a paradigm for priority juggling (going back to Torah learning when your job is done), but it occurred to me that the pairing with Yom Kippur is exquisite - Yom Kippur being representative of the short spurt/high profile avodat Hashem while Tu B'av represents the ongoing low profile diligent avodah of daily life. We need both! GCT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Oct 2 09:44:52 2019 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:44:52 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Oct 1, 2019 05:57:56 pm Message-ID: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a few weeks. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 2 15:57:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20191002225720.GA3766@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 04:44:52PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: >> In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a > few weeks. I know Rashi says it's like "beshegam" with a segol, and then explains it as "bishvil shegam". And maybe the Torah contracts "asher" only when sandwitched after a be-? It would explain the uniqueness. But I find Ibn Ezra's comparison to the shin in shekhakha (in "ashrei ha'am shekakha lo") more compelling, and the Ramban did too. The Netziv has the shin as part of the shoresh, as in "mishagmaso". Etc... As RJFS writes, it's "one *possible* exception". GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder] http://www.aishdas.org/asp isn't complete with being careful in the laws Author: Widen Your Tent of Passover. One must also be very careful in - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF the laws of business. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 2 22:13:18 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut Message-ID: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. [PS: I'm not sure whether this belongs on Avodah or Areivim] -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 3 11:37:39 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 > We know that Pas Paltur, "Baker's Bread," is actually permitted year > round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all > one's bread products are strictly Pas Yisrael. But what do these terms > mean? And why should we be stringent with this, of all halachos, and > why specifically now? And what about Shabbos? > Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter > of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily > available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and > the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot > purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress > that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. See the above URL for more. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 3 16:50:05 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003235005.GA11274@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 06:37:39PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 >> Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter >> of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily >> available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and >> the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot >> purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress >> that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. So that while the Yerushalmi's case of eating chullin betaharah is more bein adam lamaqom... When it comes to pas palter during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah, are saying that for AYT we make a point of supporting other Jews, even if our bread may be a little pricier or not as tasty as the rest of the year. More a bein adam lachaveiro practice. GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger Mussar is like oil put in water, http://www.aishdas.org/asp eventually it will rise to the top. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yisrael Salanter - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:27:05 2019 From: simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:27:05 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut In-Reply-To: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> References: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:54 PM Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: > https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 > > It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The > author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and > the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. Powerful indeed, one of the high points of the RH liturgy. By the way, the London S&P mahzor and the Keter Shem Tov, both attribute it to R. Yehuda Halevi. From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:47:59 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice Message-ID: Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the current practice? GT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:51:42 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes Message-ID: Excerpt Recent correspondence: > Sholom u'vracha, > I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It > strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly > fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two > different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av > practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other > seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts. > How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz" [ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb] I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather 1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion) GT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 07:23:52 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population Message-ID: <20191010142352.GA31063@aishdas.org> One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers. This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as "clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os. Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole 6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the time the Kenaanim get to the scene.... See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel or numberous other links. They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 10 09:48:15 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 11:48:15 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these > activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? > A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom > Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical > instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies. Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments if they break while playing. It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another to continue these peripheral extensions. > On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived > the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen > Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason > presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing > and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning > a musical instrument. And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah. Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e. that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording. How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres, or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres. That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites "acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah would be equally exempt. And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments themselves. The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the first place. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: >That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod >haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites >"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a >waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah >would be equally exempt. ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3 and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY. For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 12:58:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted... ... > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the 9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians. Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3. There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to be about until at least 400 years after Chazal. In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah. Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique nighttime reading. Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat. It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside from it being minag, not din, anyway.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:59:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: > > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. > >But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of >minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is D'Rabbonon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 13:18:53 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > D'Rabbonon. Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level because of the act, not because of the date. Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 13:41:35 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22.7A.01711.4D99F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:18 PM 10/10/2019, you wrote: >Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? If I were in EY on SA I would not dance. (Truth of the matter is that I do not dance on ST anymore, given my broken Patella.) It does seem strange to me to have Yizkor and dancing on the same day. If you read Ya'ari's sefer you will see that the ARI danced on Motzoei SA and not on SA itself. He did not dance on SA itself in EY. However, in a sefer that describes him dancing it says mistakenly that he danced and encouraged others to do the same on the night of SA. This is not true. I note that in EY there are big celebrations on the night after SA with music to accompany the dancing with the Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Oct 10 14:18:40 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> On 10/10/19 4:47 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice > changed from allowing the body to decay and then ?burying? the bones, to > the current practice? > GT As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for farming became less important. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 06:21:52 2019 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > > D'Rabbonon. > > Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? > I believe that doing so would be a great Tikkun. The heter "lichvod haTorah" doesn't convince me at all: all the dancing and singing and drinking and shmoozing *while the Torah is being read* seem to me the opposite of kavod. Ditto the practice of calling up everybody in the shul, which is not even a halachic requirement. I only wish I could find a minyan that agrees with me on these points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Oct 13 06:03:10 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> Message-ID: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Sun Oct 13 07:21:13 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] suffering/inui Message-ID: I'm looking into whether increased inui/suffering is ever something to seek (or at least not avoid). Besides yom kippur and other fasts are there other possible applications? I've heard some say childbirth -any sources? Any others? Gt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandels at ou.org Sun Oct 13 07:01:43 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail>, Message-ID: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. --- Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On October 13, 2019 at 9:03:19 AM EDT, Prof. L. Levine wrote: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. Legal Disclaimer The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:38:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions: 1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods? Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum? 2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter? Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to be a staple also? Why be lenient? I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur. << Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of thought. >> If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as a snack, and not as a meal. In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas Palter. So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to consider PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:38:38 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mimetics Message-ID: https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/ > "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted > great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on > Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of > legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt > an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this > persuasion conduct herself?" Optimal? Mimetics be darned! Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:35:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? Message-ID: Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community norms...)] Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From chidekel at mail.gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:50:54 2019 From: chidekel at mail.gmail.com (Meir Shinnar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret Message-ID: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Seth Mandel > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers > (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent > of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were > known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. Meir Shinnar From mandels at ou.org Wed Oct 16 14:15:42 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:15:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it. From: Meir Shinnar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM > It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik > ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just > some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret > (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, > even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures > I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l > said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken, and he was much more than a "fellow traveler." But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases lahalokho. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel Rabbinic Coordinator The Orthodox Union Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels at ou.org From hanktopas at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:42:41 2019 From: hanktopas at gmail.com (Henry Topas) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: Mo'ed Tov: I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this structure has been instituted? Is it different in nuschaot other than Ashkenaz? Shkoyech and a Git'n Kvitel, HT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:00:21 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:15:42PM +0000, Mandel, R/Dr Seth responded to R/Dr Meir Shinar: >> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l >> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. > As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great > talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that > he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that > are against established halokho... Not my experience at all. He does work hard to find justifications for things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, not the practices of Chassidim. On the subject of Litvaks who considered the AhS one of their own: Add the early RMF, who wrote in vol 1 that the AhS was poseiq acharon, only to switch to saying so of the MB in a later volume. (My guess is that when R Moshe saw that lemaaseh the MB was being followed over the Ahs in nearly all quarters, he stopped holding out.) Also, R' Dovid Lifshitz and R' S Yaakov Weinberg both told their talmidim to turn to the AhS. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but by rubbing one stone against another, Author: Widen Your Tent sparks of fire emerge. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:14:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> Message-ID: <20191017211443.GA16981@aishdas.org> On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 02:01:43PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote: > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers ... True. But the Minchas Elazar's validation of the practice is so cute I just need to share it. (It's been a few years since the last time.) The gemara writes (47a): meisiv ha yasvei, berukhi lo mevorkhei Rav Huna bar Bizna and all the gedolei hador "sitting they would sit, but the berakhah they didn't bless". The Muncaczer wonder about the double language. Why wouldn't the gemara just say "ha yasvei velo mvorkhei"? So he suggests that the gemara is to be read as bitmiya: "Do you think sitting they would sit when the berakhah they couldn't bless?!" As I said, cute. Totally unconvincing to this Litvak, but I admit the creativity. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From zev at sero.name Fri Oct 18 07:41:57 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:41:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c715c42-4f5f-8013-d89a-fd77762fcb25@sero.name> On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Davening isn't structured with kaddish opportunities in mind. On the contrary, kaddish is an afterthought, tacked on to the bits before and after the main event. Since on Yom Kippur we (at least in principle) go right through the day there's no need to conclude each tefilla with ketoret and/or Aleinu, and thus no opportunity for kaddish afterwards. I davened at a Sefaradi minyan, where things were different. First, after musaf there was Ketoret/Ledavid Mizmor/Ledavid Ori, followed by a kaddish (though surprisingly it was not Al Yisrael), and then Alenu followed by chatzi kaddish. After mincha there was a perek of tehilim and alenu, each followed by kaddish. There was nothing after ne'ilah, but there was a kaddish after each of the sifrei torah in the morning. In addition, as is my custom, I learned Kelim 24 and Mikvaot 7 before musaf and again before mincha and concluded them after those tefilot, with Kadish Al Yisrael. I seem to recall there was also something learned during the 40-minute break before mincha, followed by kaddish Al Yisrael, but my memory is a bit hazy. (I do remember that mishnayot Yoma was learned after maariv, followed by kaddish.) If you had been at an L shul, your kaddish opportunities would have been as follows: After musaf there would be tehillim and mishnayos; after mincha there would be Ledavid Ori; and after neilah there would be Ketores, tehillim, and mishnayos; each followed by kaddish, plus one on the first sefer torah in the morning. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mandels at ou.org Fri Oct 18 08:13:10 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> , <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> Message-ID: From: Micha Berger Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:00 PM > Not my experience at all. [AhS] does work hard to find justifications for > things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me > tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos > do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, > not the practices of Chassidim. He works hard to find bases for minhogim of many groups. His defense of the chasidic customs that violate halokho, however seems to notable, because he does it for all of the three or four cases that are directly against all the poskim. I am not enough of an expert to evaluate whether it is egregiously different than his defense of other minhogim. But it is fairly well known that he became a great admirer of the Tzemach Tzedek after he first met him. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel From micha at aishdas.org Sat Oct 19 18:57:01 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Barukh Dayan haEmes - Rabbanit Shoshana Boublil In-Reply-To: <10375da9-e283-47e9-ae6d-25316c491142@Michas-iPad> Message-ID: <39cbf7cd-2d3e-48d7-b363-268c0ac5baf2@Michas-iPad> I regret having to share the news that Rt Shoshana Boublil has lost her battle against cancer. The levayah will be tomorrow at 12:30 Bet Olamin haYarqon, Shaar Ge?ulah Her family will be sitting shiv?ah at her home. The address was sent to Areivim. I would say more, but I have no idea how the laws of hespedim on ch?m apply to this situation. -Micha > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isaac at balb.in Sun Oct 20 00:33:15 2019 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini At erect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7F7B49-E256-4064-B391-46540CA77860@balb.in> From: "Mandel, Seth" One must also bear in mind that apart from his friendship and esteem for the Tzemach Tzedek (Agav, The Beis HaLevi also sent Shaylos to the Tzemach Tzedek) one needs to remember that he was Rav in a town populated by Lubavitcher Chassidim as I noted here https://pitputim.me/2016/11/14/what-should-we-be-doing-during-the-lifting-of-the-torah-part-4/ In respect of Hagba and how that is done. _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik Z"L From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:28:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Time for dinner on Shmini Atzeres Message-ID: Regarding the late afternoon of Hoshana Raba in Chutz Laaretz, Mishneh Brura 668:7 writes: <<< The Acharonim conclude that one should not eat in the evening until dark. However, b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi, he should *not* say Leshev Basukkah, because he already accepted Shmini Atzeres in davening and in kiddush. >>> >From this, it seems that the MB has no problem beginning Shmini Atzeres early, with davening and/or kiddush, his only problem is with eating. He explains this more deeply in Shaar Hatziuy 668:12: <<< The reason is because it is still part of the seventh day, and he is obligated by the Torah to eat in the sukkah. How can he eat without daying Leshev Basukkah?!?!? But to say Leshev Basukkah is not possible, because it would be a contradiction, because in davening and kiddush, he declared it to be Shmini Atzeres! >>> Writing in chutz laaretz, the MB clearly presumes that this person *is* in the sukkah, and the only problem is the bracha. I don't understand why the bracha is such a big deal. What's wrong with simply omitting the Layshev? Let's phrase it this way: This person has two choices: (A) At this time, during which there might be a Torah obligation to eat in the sukkah, he can eat in the sukkah without the Birkas Hamitzvah. (B) Because of the uncertainty about saying the bracha, he should avoid eating in the sukkah entirely, until this uncertain time ends. - It seems clear to me that it would be far preferable to choose A and thereby possibly do a mitzvah d'Oraisa albeit without a bracha, rather than just sit around squandering that opportunity. Why am I wrong? What did I miss? (By the way, please note the MB's words "b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi". I am curious what he would advise for a person who said Kiddush and washed Netilas Yadayim, but did NOT say Hamotzi yet. Shaar Hatziyun 668:13 (near end) is lenient for the last quarter-hour before dark, but what if it were earlier? Would he really tell a person not to eat yet?) None of the above would apply in Eretz Yisrael, where there are real problems with eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, even without a bracha. Similarly, in Eretz Yisrael it's not possible to eat in the house until dark, because of the safek chiyuv d'Oraisa. But my next question, I think, is equally valid in Israel and Chu"l: Suppose it is raining on Hoshana Raba afternoon - wither in Eretz Yisrael or not - and the rain is expected to continue into the night, and he is therefore planning to eat indoors. Is there any reason to delay dinner? The MB has no problem with davening or kiddush early, and there is no question of saying Leshev. So why not? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Oct 22 18:11:18 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:11:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon Message-ID: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, then how was it he ate of the tree? Does that mean that Chava already had the yetzer hara? And if not, why would she even have been tempted. With only the yezter tov, they would be like the malachim. [Email #2. -micha] In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash able to speak and cause them to sin? From arie.folger at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:42:01 2019 From: arie.folger at gmail.com (Arie Folger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Reb Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Reb Zev Zero gave an important part of the answer. But I want to take this opportunity to express my astonishment that not more people are realizing that the lack of 'Alenu after Mussaf isn't a minhag of Yom Kippur, but a result of the original minhag, still practiced in Yekki communities, that Alenu is not recited between two tefillot that follow immediately after one another. I.e. when saying Ma'ariv immediately after Minchah, no 'Alenu is said after Minchah, or, when Minchah is said immediately after Mussaf. In many shuls, there is no break between Mussaf and Minchah (actually, no break on Yom Kippur, period), which is why there is no 'Alenu. Since most shuls, however, introduced a break between Mussaf and Minchah, it stands to reason that we should say 'Alenu and Kaddish. -- Arie Folger, Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 23 08:13:37 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] blessings Message-ID: Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 13:10:06 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] blessings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191023201006.GB20617@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:13:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should > be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because > brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) I think the former, looking at the phrase in context in the gemara. R Elazar quoting R Chanina continues (Megillah 15a): ... For two gedolei hador were blessed by two hedyotos and they were fulfilled. And they [the gedolim] are David (Shemu'el 2 24:23) and Daniyel (6:17).... And then he continues about qelelas hedyot, with Avimelekh cursing Sarah (Bereishis 20:16) causing Yitzchaq's blindness as an example. Aside from the indications from the examples... Why would R' Chanina advise us to increase the chance of a qelalah working by believing in it? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is a stage and we are the actors, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but only some of us have the script. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Menachem Nissel - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 14:43:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of the Universe. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:32:03 +0000 Subject: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis ... GOOD MORNING! How old is the universe? 13.8 billion years or 6,000 years? Did Creation take place in 6 twenty-four hour days or were they longer? This week I bring to you a fascinating approach from a fascinating man. Daniel Friedmann holds a master's degree in engineering physics and is the Chairman of Carbon Engineering, a company dedicated to removing co2 from the air to solve climate change and ex-CEO of the Canadian company that made the robotic arm for the Space Shuttle. He lays out his research in his book, The Biblical Clock. Why did Mr. Friedmann start investigating the connection between the Torah's story of Creation and the scientific timeline? The Talmudic sages teach that 'God looked into the Torah and created the world" (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. 1:2). Mr. Friedmann concluded that if the Torah is the blueprint of the universe, then the Torah account of creation and scientific account of the age of the Universe must coincide. About 700 years ago Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the assertion that time -- while God was creating and man had not yet appeared -- was different than time as we keep today. Mr. Friedmann, based on this insight and on classical sources, aligns the dates of key events as described in Genesis 1 and 2 with those derived from scientific theory and observation. How? One Creation Day = 1,000 x 365.25 x 7,000 = 2.56 billion years. The factor of 1,000 comes directly from Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day" -- where we learn that one day for God equals 1,000 human years. The 365.25 number is simply a conversion from days to years (being the number of days in a year). The factor of 7,000 relates to cosmic cycles. The Talmud, (Sanhedrin 97a), which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." Various Kabbalistic works, dating back to the first century, write that there are 7 cosmic cycles of 7000 thousand years (analogous to the sabbatical cycles). The factor of 7000 relates to these cycles. (This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs). The Torah provides a detailed timeline of the creation events. Genesis describes the timeline for the formation of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Each event is provided in sequence with a time of occurrence. For example, we are told that the sun was completed at the end of Day 4, that life first appeared in the oceans at the beginning of Day 5, and that the animals were made in Day 6; careful examination of the Genesis text reveals about 20 separate creation events. Much of the information in Genesis is further detailed in the Oral Torah to reveal a more accurate timeline of events. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b) provides the detailed account of Day 6, hour-by-hour: "The day consisted of twelve hours. In the first hour, his (Adam's) dust was gathered... in the fifth, he arose and stood on his feet; in the sixth, he gave (the animals) their names; in the seventh, Eve became his mate; in the eighth, they ascended to bed as two and descended as four (i.e., Cain and Abel are born); in the ninth he entered the Garden of Eden and he was commanded not to eat of the tree; in the tenth, he sinned; in the eleventh, he was tried; and in the twelfth, he was expelled (from Eden)..." Mr. Friedmann then calculates that the Age of the universe from the start of Day 1 to today: exactly 13.74 billion years, coinciding with the latest scientific measurements. Beginnings of life: from first thing on Day 5 ("let the waters teem" Gen. 1:20) to today corresponds to 3.52 billion years which is in agreement with the scientific time for "universal ancestor" -- the single cell. Plant life (on the land): from hours 6 to 9 on Day 6 until today ("God planted a garden... and there He placed the man... And God caused to sprout from the ground every tree" Gen. 2:8, 9) corresponds to 426-106 million years ago which he reports is in agreement with the fossil record. The Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science.... ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Daniel Friedmann Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:38 PM Micha Berger wrote: > Isn't this the a minor variant on what R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote in 1979 in > "The Age of the Universe - A Torah-True Perspective"? > http://nleresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/the_age_of_the_universe___a_torah_true_perspective.pdf > If so, you might want to see R' Ari Kahn's obections in Explorations, which > he excerpted on the Avodah email list at > http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n080.html Hi thank you, no this is different from Rabbi Kaplan's work as detailed in my book. RK had the cycles of 7000 occurring before day 1 this was not in accordance with the Arizal. In the approach here the 7000 is for each creation day based on commentary on Etz Hayim This provides an age of the universe of 13.74 vs 15 billion and allows calculation of another 17 events All but one match scientific measurement. Sorry for the short answer .... From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:12:17 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:12:17 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Which gate did they use to go into the azara when bringing the korban pesach? Message-ID: It is clear that they used shaar nikanor but the question is did they use the other gates of the azara as well? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:31:49 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 06:31:49 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Oct 25 07:14:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191025141420.GE25728@aishdas.org> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 06:31:49AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get > 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly > changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up > with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? This is a problem with concordism in general. Look at how well the Rambam held up. However, if you believe there is only one emes, and aren't ready to simply dismiss or ignore whatever evidence we do have, then you would feel there is a duty to keep on finding convergence. Not in the tenor of "science finally caught up to Torah", more "see, the two needn't contradict; you don't have to choose." :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but when a prophet dies, his influence is just Author: Widen Your Tent beginning. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Soren Kierkegaard From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Oct 27 05:14:25 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Noach Message-ID: <562504E5-2AC5-4CBA-BD30-59C27C348441@cox.net> In Parshat Noach, Ch.8 verse 2, the word "vayikalei" (and the rain from heaven was restrained) appears only twice in the entire Bible. The only other place it occurs is in Parshat Vayakhel where Moses commanded the Jews to contribute materials for the building of the Tabernacle. The Jews responded with such energy that Moses soon had more than enough material and he had to tell the people to cease. (We should be so lucky today). The people dutifully complied, as the Torah records: "And the people were restrained from bringing" (Exodus 36:6). The Baal HaTurim who pointed out the rare occurrence of this word says that this connection reminds us that when God rains down His blessings, people increase their level of tzedakah. But when the rain stops, so does their generosity. (Actually, I would have thought it was just the opposite because if God did not rain down his blessings, people would be afraid that they've sinned and therefore would increase their level of tzedakah. But as soon as the blessings rain down, people in their prosperity forget others and are less generous. I would tend to think it really depends upon the person, etc.). From ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:06:53 2019 From: ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> References: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2019, 5:43 PM, at 5:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote: >The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had >when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of >the Universe. https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/aryeh-kaplan-on-evolution-a-missing-chapter-of-the-handbook-of-jewish-thought/ I don't like the Schroederian take on Evolution, but, regardless, a major discovery. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:46:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in certain cases). So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:33:32 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon In-Reply-To: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> References: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191031023332.GE14724@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 09:11:18PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil > inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, > then how was it he ate of the tree? ... The Rambam (MN 1:1-2) says that until the sin, Adam and Chavah's challenge was to decide between truth and falsehood. And the snake provided the falsehood that they fell for. Potentially along the same lines, R' Dessler says that until the sin the yeitzer hara was externalized in the form of the nachash. The sin caused the internalization of desire. Which also depends on someone who only wants to do Hashem's Will falling for the arguments of the externalized yh"r. > In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also > called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, > because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the > question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply > the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash > able to speak and cause them to sin? First, I think the "ruach memalela" of Unqelus that Rashi is referring to is not the power to speak, but having an internal monolog. The ability to "hear" one's thoughts is a critical part of assessing what one's thinking and a necessary element of free will. Which would explain why Koko the gorilla's (et al) skill at learning sign language doesn't pose a question about kinds of soul. (And could be why they didn't *invent* language.) Pre-fruit, this world and the olam ha'emes hadn't yet split into two. (R Kook) So Adam could have encountered the snake in a non-physical way. The nachash might not even be the physical snake, but the satan who was riding him (is that the Zohar or only Ben Sira?), or the angel in charge of snakes. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:04:56 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:04:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 15 Av In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031020456.GA14724@aishdas.org> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 02:09:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: >> And further ... if a woman converts for marriage, and the >> marriage is assur, is there any way to say the conversion was >> valid? I mean, there are pretty loose definitions of qabbalas >> ol malkhus Shamayim compared to what a beis din would hope for. >> But converting for the sake of being able to do an issur??? > These are great questions, and their answers are far above my level. But > I'll say this: It is not at all unusual to come across a gemara that says, > "You're not allowed to convert in this manner, but if you did, then it is > valid." And some of those leniencies raise the exact question that RMB is > asking, because if the gerus was done is a forbidden manner, where is the > qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim? There is a significant break in the parallel you're proposing. Someone whose geirus was done wrongly but kosher bedi'eved was converted by a beis din who did something wrong. It doesn't necessarily disprove the geir's qabbalas ol mitzvos, because (1) they're relying on people who are comparatively subject matter experts, not acting on their own; and (2) they aren't necessarily converting for the sake of being able to sin. And if (3) it's about wondering about the convert's QOM vs ulterier motive (like the Rambam's discussion of Shimshon's and Shelomo haMelekh's wifes), the convert him/herself isn't wondering. Here, you have someone converting just for the purpose of sinning. It isn't about the conversion, where the ball or sin is in the beis din't court. (It doesn't involve any questions of the kashrus of the geirus being valid by circular or paradoxical reasoning -- the sin doesn't have the self-reference nature of being in the conversion itself.) > By the way, where did they find a Beis Din in Moav? Yes, that was a > rhetorical question, intended to point out that if Rus and Orpah did have a > valid conversion at the beginning of the story, the procedure must have > involved some pretty serious leniencies. Well, if two famous people went to where there was food, out of the whole Jewish and Israelish peoples, there must have been at least 3 others. That doesn't surprise me. > Hmmm... Actually, if Rus converted at the end of the story, that is pretty > problematic too, because even if there isn't any "conversion for the sake > of marriage" to worry about, the Beis Din is even more surprising. (Someone > *might* make a case that two brothers could be a Beis Din for gerus, but > when Naami and Rus were alone they didn't have any Jewish men around at Or again, anonymous and unmentioned bit players. Who said they were all alone on the road? Maybe the road was better traveled than that? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:13:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] guessing at history? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031021308.GB14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 08:16:45AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I recently heard a shiur where the presenter described the "bad > scholarship" of the Torah Tmimah when offering the "misread abbreviation" > explanation (e.g. v'hazmanim really means fill in the holiday name). I > thought it a bit unkind since ISTM the guessing about the historical > circumstances of practices is what poskim do all the time (e.g. why some > women have a minhag not doing mlacha on rosh chodesh) I noticed that his father also gets very creative. The difference is, the Arukh haShulchan's creative sevaros are always to try to figure out how halakhah as practiced could have emerged from the texts. The TT doesn't have that limitation. But saying he was wrong doesn't need to be a value judgment. For example, his theory that saying "Migdol" in (after?) bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov came from someone confusing "B"Sh" for "BeShemu'el B" with "BeShabbos" is provably wrong. The Avudraham refers to the custom, and yet predates the Christian publishing of Shemuel in two volumes. Does that make the TT morally wrong for trying his best? Or intellectually dishonest when he clearly warns you he is theorizing? It is not unlike rabbanim who make other historical guess in the fact that he too gueses. What is different is that most don't have as high of a miss rate. Which means that you should buy into these theories with a lot of caution and independent research. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:15:16 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> References: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> Message-ID: <20191031021516.GC14724@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 05:18:40PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky > country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never > existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for > farming became less important. Also, when people were eating al taharas qodesh and otherwise were keeping all those halakhos seriously, there was a stronger drive to keep as much of Eretz Yisrael tahor as possible. In addition to pragmatic reasons to save real estate. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself, http://www.aishdas.org/asp "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now, Author: Widen Your Tent at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:20:03 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031022003.GD14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:35:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the > deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh > (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community > norms...)] How can it be? It's not like the chiyuv for the amud is really a chiyuv. Even qaddish is minhag -- and he could say that without taking the amud. For example, they say that R' Yisrael Salanter held that giving the amud to the other aveil is a better zekhus for the niftar than taking it yourself. I think that the main reason why culture so emphasizes this one ritual for aveilus is because of the number of people for which a year of going to shul regularly is the start of taking minyan more seriously for the rest of their lives. So, if we find other ways to encourage shul attendance (Qaddish is still an issue), even that motive is addressed. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a http://www.aishdas.org/asp person is to remain asleep and untamed." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 30 22:02:59 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/19 7:46 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn?t find it) although I?m guessing it?s based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty ? at least in > certain cases). It is indeed based on that. > So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei > mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is > kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] Bread is different, because the gemara specifies bread, and yes, crumbs smaller than a kezayit are beteilim and may be thrown out. AIUI one may deliberately break up a large piece into pieces smaller than a kezayit in order to throw them out. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 31 08:49:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031154951.GA2681@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in > certain cases).... The AhS OC 180:4 says that the worry about crumbs had to do with the Roman shulchan, which was a small one-person thing. And if you permitted the staff to take the table out without gathering the crumbs, they would likely do so even with bigger-than-kezayis pieces. (He even mentions a discussion in the gemara that allows hiring an am ha'aretz as a shamah.) But we today don't take the table out when not eating. (Which is why we need a ke'ara to remove or cover and then restore, as appropriate, at the seder.) The AhS says the problem is that people who wash before bread will disgracefully treat the bread on the floor from previous meals. The MB s"q 10 records a chumerah of not throwing out crumbs that total a kezayis. And, in accordance with the AhS's description of the motive, warns you not to walk on any bread crumbs. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless http://www.aishdas.org/asp he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness. Author: Widen Your Tent Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From penkap at panix.com Tue Nov 5 08:26:36 2019 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: <9D1EF0D1-F323-470E-AC49-C21245FA8691@panix.com> ?Re the discussion about a particular parnassa segula having to do with the disposal of bread, I always thought the best such segula was to get a good education and/or learn a trade. Doesn?t always work, I know, but no segula always works. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:00 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechilla Message-ID: An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:58 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:26 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:42:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Al tochlu mimenu na Message-ID: On the Mesorah list, we are having a discussion about the word "na" (nun-aleph), which often seems to mean "now" or "please". It was also compared to some other synonyms. I interjected that "na" also appears in Shemos 12:9 with an entirely different meaning, "undercooked". R' Zev Sero showed how this meaning is *not* so different after all: > Al tochlu mimenu na means "as it is now", uncooked. > Think "bistro", or "fast food". The fastest food is raw. It is a common error to think that "na" means "raw" here. Rashi on the pasuk defines "na" as "She'eino tzalui kol tzorko - It's not roasted all it needs" Rashi requires the Korban Pesach to be fully roasted, and it seems that even Maachal Ben Drusa'i would count as "na". Similarly, Torah Temimah there (#73 and #81) says that one who eats a Korban Pesach raw ("chai" is his word) has *not* violated this pasuk. (But he did fail to eat it roasted as required.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:06 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") Message-ID: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? The underlying motif of washing hands is ritual purification, similar to immersion in a mikve. The rabbinical decree to wash hands before meals is based on the purification the Kohanim underwent before eating their teruma offerings. The Talmud, however, gives a rather odd rationale for "mayim acharonim", washing hands after the meal. The Sages explained that this washing removes the salt of Sodom, a dangerous salt that can blind the eyes. [Chulin 105b] What is this Sodomite salt? What does it have to do with purification? How does it blind the eyes? Rav Kook explained that to answer to these questions we must understand the basis for the immorality of Sodom. The people of Sodom were obsessed with fulfilling their physical desires. Their concentration on self-gratification led to selfish, egocentric behavior. They expended all of their efforts chasing after material pleasures. No energy was left for helping the stranger; no time remained for kindness towards others. Eating a meal obviously involves sensual pleasure. The rabbis feared that since we eat several times every day, the importance of spirituality that truly perfects man can be decreased. As a preventive measure, the Sages decreed that we wash our hands before eating. This ritual impresses upon us the imagery that we are like the Kohanim, eating "holy" bread baked from teruma. The physical meal we are about to partake now assumes a spiritual dimension. Despite this preparation, the act of eating may to some extent reduce our holiness. Therefore, washing after the meal comes to counteract this negative influence. We wash away the salt of Sodom, the residue of selfish preoccupation in sensual pleasures. This dangerous salt, which can blind our eyes to the needs of others, is rendered harmless through the purification of "mayim acharonim". [Ayn Aya I:21] Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there. Bonnie Raitt Physical strength can never permanently withstand the impact of spiritual force. F.D.R. From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Nov 11 05:06:41 2019 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: <008601d59890$dc8ba6f0$95a2f4d0$@touchlogic.com> From: "Rich, Joel" ...Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? Many years ago (after reading the section in R Dessler on dreams) I had the same question. At the time, I asked R Wolbe z'l how much time/effort I s put into interpreting my dreams. He told me that when he was younger, he had a reoccurring dream and he went to the Chazon Ish to ask its significance and what he should do. He told me that the CI told him that today we not on the madregah that Hashem sends us msgs thru our dreams, and that he should ignore it. Mordechai Cohen From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:57:24 2019 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:57:24 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechila In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)?' Isn't that the same question as why we have the aseres ymei teshuva after RH, not before? After all, the purpose of asking mechila is that we can't have mechila or kapara on mitzvos bein adam l'makom until we've had mechila from those we've trespassed against (with apologies to external liturgy). So the minhag haolam re mechila and the teshuva of aseres ymei teshuva are all part of the same process and issue. The question of why the order of of RH/AYT/YK is what it is has been asked and has a number of approaches. But your question seems just part of that bigger question. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Nov 12 06:00:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Being Sekptical About Skepticism Message-ID: <20191112140022.GA6783@aishdas.org> From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/when-atheists-stole-the-moral-high-ground/ > The Spectator > Nick Spencer > 9 November 2019 > When atheists stole the moral high ground ... > Most of us like to believe that we believe what we believe because > rigorous reasoning and reliable evidence have led us there. Most of us > are wrong. It isn't that reason and evidence play no role in our religion > or lack of it; rather that they are saturated with deeper emotional, > social and practical concerns. As Julian Barnes writes in The Sense of > an Ending: 'Most of us... make an instinctive decision, then build up an > infrastructure of reasoning to justify it.' Du Perron was no doubt very > devout. Today he may well have been devoutly sceptical. But in neither > case is he likely to have been led to his dis/belief through reason alone. > That the emotions matter is well established in the case of religious > belief, as Stephen T. Asma's fine recent study Why We Need Religion > explains. But it is less well recognised when it comes to unbelief, and > particularly the history of unbelief. Here we are still wedded to the > romantic fable of fearless sceptics hacking their way through obscurantist > bigotry, armed with nothing more than their trusty sword of reason. See epigram in signature. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:37:18 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha Message-ID: Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:39:28 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah Message-ID: The chavot yair (252) was asked by a talmid chacham (TC) about the following circumstances: The TC's cousin vowed to provide the TC with weekly wine for Kiddush. The TC would rather use his own wine as he doesn't want to have a freebie with which to do a mitzvah (see Samuel 2.24:24) He fears however it would be stealing to use the provided wine as the cousin would not have given it to him if he knew he wasn't using it for Kiddush. The chavot yair provides a detailed analysis of whether such a condition is truly binding [the whole less than 100% free and clear sale topic is an interesting one - is it not a sale if the condition isn't met or is there a separate obligation] What caught my eye however was his endorsement of the TC's preference to pay for his own kiddush even if the wine wasn't as good! It's not based on the passage from Samuel [I suspect since that case was a purchase from a non-ben brit) but rather because "tfei hiddur v'dikduk mitzvah havi im koneh ladavar mkiso dlo havi msitca d'chinam dmistra milta yesh lanu od rayah mhazohar" it's more of a beautification and scrupulousness in mitzvoth if he buys it himself so it's not free and even though this is clearly logical, we have a proof from the zohar.] My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). My meta guess would've been soneih matanot yichyeh (it's better not to take gifts) but that would require not taking the donated wine at all - which didn't seem up for grabs. Any thoughts other than behavioral economics? (we value our own things more) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:07:29 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") In-Reply-To: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> References: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191118190729.GA14270@aishdas.org> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 09:50:06AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg relayed the following piece from Gold from the Land of Israel, R' Chanan Morrison, adapted from Ein Eyah vol 1 pg. 21: > The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom > and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one > should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? But does it have anything directly to do with the city's evil or its destruction? One would be tempted to say yes, because Lot's wife *looked* back at the Cities of the Plains and was turned to salt. And the thread of melach sedomis is to ones eyesight, of all things. But this is a reference to getting an actual salt that they were using alongside normal table salt (sodium chloride) into one's eyes. There is no need to take this out of the realm of physical danger. Salt extrated from the flats in the area has far more adulteration with potassium chloride than anything we would consume today. (In fact, the modern town of Sedom was built specifically for potash [a mix of potassium compounds, mostly potassium carbonate] works.) So it makes sense in mundane terms -- potassium chloside is a moderate eye irritant, and sites also warn about abrasion in the eye as well. And in fact, to make malach sodomis more symbolic would complicate the Ashkenazi neglect of mayim achronim. We don't wash because the salt isn't used. If the salt were symbolic of Sedom and thus hand-washing more in the territory of impurity, we would need to prove that the lack of using the salt sufficiently weakens the symbolism to allow neglecting the ruling. (Back when RRW was on-list, I noted that the Ashk - Seph split on this backed up a theory he repeated here. According to Prof Agus, Ta Shma and others [not R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik], because many more Ashkneazim came ultimately from EY, rather than the more predominantly Bavli origins of Sepharadim, we can find a number of minhagei Ashk and liturgical elements sources in the Y-mi or Midrashei Halakhah even when against the Bavli. The Bavli gives two reasons for mayim achronim -- a comparison to watchin before the meal, and thus about taharah, and melach sedomis. The Y-mi only mneitons melach sedomis. Which would explain why Ashk feel free not to wash when no such salt is served, but Seph do not.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes http://www.aishdas.org/asp exactly the right measure of himself, and Author: Widen Your Tent holds a just balance between what he can - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:16:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118191623.GB14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:37:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the > period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) The Be'er Heitev says that for men it's only until one counts. Looks like the usual "don't do your own thing you might forget to do the mitzvah" taqanah (but in minhag form). The AhS (s' 9) "vegam `atah yeish nashim" who keep this minhag. But the minhag was ONLY accepted by women and ONLY until sefirah after maariv. What "after maariv" meant for single women in towns where there multiple times for maariv is beyond me. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:29:25 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118192925.GC14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:39:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in > the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the > better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure > additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). I can't answer your "in addition", but in general. One Shabbos haGadol derashah R Menachem Zupnik included the idea that it is better to use wine you bought for the four kosos than wine you got for free (for example, in "shalachmanos"). The idea is that this is actually the finer wine, regardless of the taste of the two wines. And therefore, Ashkenazim would choose white wine they bought over red wine they were given. Whereas Sepharadim prioritize color over taste preference, and therefore over this too. Perhaps it's an issue of "Adam rozeh beqav shelo mitish'ah qavim shel chaveiro." (R Kahana, BM 38a) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 19 15:40:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: <35B73FAF-B266-4A97-980D-07F0F8014233@sibson.com> If one (or a whole community)normally eats sliced apple as part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 04:55:11 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as > part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make > a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for ritual purposes. My understanding is that this is exactly why we are told to have the maror in mind when we say haadamah on the karpas. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Nov 20 13:31:40 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191120213140.GQ29112@aishdas.org> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:55:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > R' Joel Rich asked: >> If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as >> part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make >> a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? > You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a > non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for > ritual purposes. To rephased RAM's answer in the terms I was planning to use... (Just because to the way I think, I find the first sentence below a clear summary.) Whether or not a food it part of the meal has little to do with the kind of food, and more with why it is being eaten. Yes, there are rules of thumb. Like assuming fruit during the meal wasn't really as part of the meal - which RJR's example of waldorf salad violates. Just as RAM's (deleted) example of maror defies the norms for why we eat vegetables during the meal. And is a close parallel to the minhag of eating an apple as part of a siman milsa. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 21 08:43:28 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion Message-ID: Please see the article at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5213 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Interestingly, overnight peeled eggs might actually be permitted according to several authorities, as Rashi (ad loc. s.v. she?avar) when explaining the prohibition omits eggs from the criteria.Additionally, there is some debate among several later poskim about what type of peeled eggs are intended for inclusion in the prohibition - cooked eggs or raw eggs. ohr.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Nov 22 09:11:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] "Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me" (by R/Dr Hillel Goldberg) Message-ID: <20191122171120.GA24498@aishdas.org> R Hillel Goldberg wrote The Fire Within, which inspired me to explore Mussar. (And is long out of print.) Dr Hillel Goldberg's PhD thesis became the book, "Israel Salanter, text, structure, idea: the ethics and theology of an early psychologist of the unconscious". Since, RHG inhereted leadership of the Intermountain Jewish News, published in Denver. He once again inspire me week's opinion colum again inspired me, so I'm including it in full. If you like your arti https://www.ijn.com/yes-directly-moses-speaks-to-me/ :-)BBii! -Micha PS: I noticed that K'tav doesn't list that book title with what I think of as "title caps", and I see RHG didn't do so with the article's title either. If someone could explain the rules of these things to me, off list, I would appreciate it. Bcc: Dr Alan Morinis, R/Dr Hillel Goldberg (Since I didn't take the time to reach out to get permission to share their addresses. Assume I will forward them any replies.) Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me [Rabbi Dr] Hillel Goldberg Nov 21, 2019 Columns, Opinion, View from Denver More venerable than the Kaddish, older than the Haggadah, earlier than Chanukah and Purim. A sense of Jewish history connects a Jew to his roots. It can also cloud those roots. Here is what I mean. If we ask, why be Jewish, Jewish history is one answer. There are many variations on the answer, but each one draws a Jew back in time, fostering a feeling of identity with Judaism or the Jewish people. Even so, these answers rarely take us back far enough. Consider the following reasons for connecting to Jewish history: I want to keep my own family customs alive. I do not want the Holocaust to be the end of the Jewish people. I know my passion for social justice comes from Jews always being the underdog. I relish research into my own genealogy. The more I learn about my past, the more I feel connected to it and proud of it, whether I am an Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe or a Sephardi from Spain, Greece or Iraq. I get the chills when I see Israel reborn. I sit in a philosophy class and feel special pride when Maimonides is held up as a major philosopher. I study about Rabbi Akiva, Rashi and the mystics in Safed, and I know I am connected to an eternal people. In the long arc of Jewish history, all of these examples are relatively recent. They are kind of like touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and feeling connected to the American Revolution more than 240 years ago, but then thinking of standing before the Western Wall, some 2,000 years old. As in, 240 years, big deal! I do not mean to discount my feelings of awe and gratitude upon visiting Independence Hall. But compared to Jewish memory, 240 years is a blink. The thing is, we may say the same even for the 2,000 year-old Western Wall, the most powerful, emotional site in Judaism. My sense of Jewish history may cloud just how far back my roots actually stretch. Just as we may skip over the Holocaust and Maimonides and our personal genealogy to reach back so much further to the Western Wall, we may skip back further still. Take, for example, the one topic that occupies the entire, 2,711 folio-page Babylonian Talmud more than any other: "carrying," the prohibition of transferring objects from one domain to another, or of carrying objects within a public domain, on the Sabbath. For those who do not observe this prohibition, I appeal to your intellectual curiosity. Where did this come from? It originates neither with Maimonides nor in the Talmud. It is not from the ancient Holy Temples nor even from the Prophets of Israel (save one). We stretch back not to the Holocaust 75 years ago, not to Maimonides 800 years ago, not to the Western Wall 2,000 years ago, not even to the Prophet Isaiah, some 2,800 years ago. Our roots go all the way back to the first Prophet, Moses, in the Sinai desert after the Exodus. We recall the generation of the desert, of the liberated Hebrew slaves from Egypt, not just in a ritual (the seder), not just as Jewish history, and not just as abstractions ("the beginnings of the Jewish people" or "the inception of the Jewish-Divine covenantal relationship"). No, we recall Moses in the desert for something very specific that was done then and sustained throughout the generations, down to this very next Shabbos. When the Tabernacle was under construction in the desert, as G-d had commanded in the Book of Exodus, our ancestors volunteered the raw materials, the fibers, precious metals and animal skins out of which the Tabernacle was made. One fine day, on a Shabbos, Moses told the entire encampments of the Israelites: Bring no more! Why? Because on Shabbos one is not to transfer from one domain to another; specifically, from the private domain (the Israelites' homes, their tents) to the public domain, the Levite camp, where Moses was stationed and the Tabernacle was to be constructed (Shabbat 96b). Think of this. On the very next Shabbos that I welcome this year -- me, you, here, right now -- if I refrain from carrying an object out of my home, I am under the spiritual canopy of Moses himself, of my people at its very inception. I am a direct link to the Israelite sojourn in the Sinai desert and to one of the first Words embraced in practice after the revelation at Mount Sinai. I am not just connected to my roots. I am living them. Copyright (C) 2019 by the Intermountain Jewish News From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 06:35:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do beer and whiskey not require bishul Yisroel (Jewish involvement in the cooking)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha A. Bishul akum is prohibited when two conditions are met: a) the food cannot be eaten raw and b) the food is worthy of being ?oleh al shulchan melachim? (served at fancy dinners). Beer and whiskey are made from cooked grains, which are not edible in a raw state. Thus, beer and whiskey satisfy the first condition for bishul akum. Nonetheless, Tosfos (AZ 31b: s.v. V?traveihu) writes that beer is not served at fancy dinners and therefore the second requirement for bishul akum is not present. This explanation suffices for beer, but not for whisky, which is served at fancy dinners. However, Tosfos offers a second explanation why beer is exempt from bishul akum. Although beer is made from the five grains, the bracha is Shehakol and not Mezonos because beer is primarily a water-based drink. By the same token, beer does not acquire a status of bishul akum because it is primarily water. Since water is edible in a raw state, it does not require bishul Yisroel. The same rationale applies to whiskey which is a water-based drink, and as such, does not require bishul Yisroel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 15:15:56 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:15:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav Message-ID: RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did. When a friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush, the Rav began to yell at him saying that this is false. I believe this Rav thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes. However, RSRH, following the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. RSRH writes, "Yet, even if we were incapable of explaining the strange events in this story; even if we were forced to conclude as the Ramban concludes ? , 'Our father Avraham inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land, about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another sin he committed )' ? nevertheless, none of this would perplex us. The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: ?Here you have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!? It does not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust. Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: ?Look upon Me! Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!? We are never to say: ?This must be good and right, because so-and-so did it.? The Torah is not an ?anthology of good deeds.? It relates events not because they are necessarily worthy of emulation, but because they took place. Rav Hirsch's essay about the education of Yaakov and Esav may be read at Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII) There is much wisdom in this essay about education. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Nov 27 11:50:12 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:50:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a > friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav > began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav > thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following > the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to > say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From sholom at aishdas.org Thu Nov 28 06:37:50 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237da176174e2f7bc95386dc5c7b4289@aishdas.org> RZS wrote: > On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >> RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a >> friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav >> began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav >> thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following >> the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to >> say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. > > Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. And Ramban, too? And, if so, RYL made a mistake, too -- the same one that R Noson Slifkin made: "rishonim are allowed to say that, but we're not allowed to say that" ;-) Chodesh Tov, everyone. (And Hodu-Day) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 28 08:57:43 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? Message-ID: I recall being at an Agudah Convention many years ago and being served turkey on Thanksgiving Day! >From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6105 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] Thanksgiving: Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Biur HaGr?a (Yoreh Deah 178: end 7) and Gilyon Maharsha (ad loc. 1). The Gr?a is bothered by the fact that the sugya in Sanhedrin seems to imply differently than the views of the Maharik, Ran, and later, the Rema, that a Chok Goyim, even one that is not a Chok Avodah Zarah should still be prohibited. Others who ask this question and conclude tzarich iyun on the Maharik?s shittah include ... ohr.edu >From the article On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. See the above URL for much more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Nov 28 10:31:05 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a 'holiday' and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving's origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. ---------------------------------------- But they did celebrate Mother's day? Veteran's day? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 1 09:32:10 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeitzei Message-ID: <64993E05-F027-4F31-89BE-8D9D0DF924EF@cox.net> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked. Chapter 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it have to say "from his sleep?" Of course it was from his sleep. All it had to say was: "And Jacob awoke.? Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt...? Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and THEN "And he dreamt...?? So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke ?from his sleep? which is redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if that?s the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first time should just have said ?And Jacob awoke?? I propose the following possible answer: In the first instance, when he had the dream, it was really a prophetic vision and it wasn't an ordinary sleep, hence, the word sleep was omitted. However, after the dream, he slipped into a regular sleep, and therefore it says he "awoke from his sleep.? From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 1 12:04:35 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bananas are Herbs Message-ID: <20191201200432.GF19738@aishdas.org> This video explains the difference between woody plants (trees and shrubs) and herbaceous plants. Bananas are among the talles herbs. And just what is a bannana "tree"'s "trunk"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMfTkDZlFQ So, the scientific taxonomy and hilkhos berakhos agree on this one. A banana is not peri eitz. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 13:31:46 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202213146.GA29446@aishdas.org> Rav Dovid Lifshitz didn't personally eat turkey because of iffyness of saying it fits the requirement for a kosher species of bird to be backed by a mesorah. Not lekhakhah, but as a personal chumerah. And yet R Dovid celebrated Thanksgiving. (Which was a more common sentiment in the refugee generation.) But he did so with a goose dinner. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 23:35:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Thursday Night Chulent Permissible? Message-ID: <20191203073543.GA8739@aishdas.org> I would strongly dis-recommend chulent before Shabbos lunch. (Be glad I am not yours or anyone's poseiq.) Here is my argument against. The Shabbos daytime meal is supposed to be more important than Friday night's meal. One is supposed to save their favorite dishes for lunch. The gemara even mentions chamin as one such food that should be saved! So what is Thu or Fri night chulent? It is taking a food invented for the purpose of contributing to making Shabbos lunch the high point of the week's food and being too impatient to get one's treat to show proper kevod Shabbos. Rashi (Gittin 38b) says that people who make Fri night the greater meal should fear punishment! See also AhS OC 271:9, who finds what he calls a "limmud zekhus" for people who serve their most special foods Fri night -- many of them aren't as enjoyable the next morning. But he says this is why we have kugel and chulent, foods that can remain on the fire all night. After seeing what is said about not saving special food for Shabbos lunch, and chulent is designed to be that special food, and having it Friday night, al achas kamah vekamah serving it before Shabbos altogether! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From t613k at mail.aol.com Tue Dec 3 09:31:18 2019 From: t613k at mail.aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] R' Osher Katz -- Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna In-Reply-To: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130117873.1655613.1575394278828@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends and Family, I would not normally send out something so personal but my brother-in-law, R' Osher Katz, was diagnosed with cancer three months ago -- Stage 4 -- and he has not yet begun treatment, because, for complicated reasons, he has no insurance and very low income. There is treatment that offers hope of a complete remission but it is unbelievably expensive. We have tried reaching out to many Jewish and secular organizations, so far with little result. My daughter Naomi has created this campaign with The Chesed Fund to raise funds for him to begin treatment. This is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. Scholarly Rabbi Can't Afford Cancer Treatment | The Chesed Fund PS Many people give anonymously because it's a public site and they don't want their name up there, so I don't know who gives and who doesn't. If you can't afford to give don't worry, don't feel pressured but say a kapitel please for a refuah sheleimah for Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna. --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com From ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 5 11:55:02 2019 From: ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca (Ari Meir Brodsky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Tonight (Thursday evening) begin Prayer for Rain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my annual friendly reminder.... Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily prayers, beginning with Maariv tonight (Thursday evening), December 5, 2019, corresponding to the evening of 8 Kislev, 5780. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. [Sephardim replace the entire blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to Prof. Lasker for the reminder.] I encourage everyone to remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at that time. Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/veten-tal-u-matar/ (Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.) And it's been raining this evening here in Israel, thank God! Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka, -Ari Meir Brodsky --------------------- Ari M. Brodsky Teaching Fellow Department of Mathematics Bar-Ilan University Ramat-Gan 5290002 ISRAEL ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 8 07:15:44 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayishlach Brotherly Love Message-ID: <52DF2CD4-5DD1-44B6-AAEE-C16FB12F5232@cox.net> One of the most moving scenes in the entire Torah is when Esau and Jacob meet after 20 years. Chapter 33, verse 4, says: "Esau ran toward him, embraced him, fell upon his neck, and kissed him; then they wept." The Netziv points out that all the verbs in this verse are in the first person and refer to Esau. "He ran, he embraced him; hefell upon his neck, he kissed him and they cried." All the verbs are in the (third person) singular, except the last one: "theycried." Both Jacob and Esau cried?such human drama and emotion! They cried. That's the very factor that made their meeting a success. Without both feeling the emotion, neither could feel the emotion. The connection of brothers is a paradigm for the connection of nations. We need each other, and in order to laugh together, we first must cry together. The Netziv goes on to say the day will come when Esau will truly embrace his brother Jacob in honest unadulterated compassion, then both brothers will cry in happiness. May we live to see this day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 9 09:38:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Balancing Observance and the Interpersonal Message-ID: <20191209173824.GA32478@aishdas.org> By R' Eliezer Eisenberg Teaser: Havolim Thursday, December 05, 2019 Vayeitzei. Reconciling LeChaveiro with LaMakom Overview After Yaakov had a dream where he received nevuas Elokim that told him to leave Lavan, why did he seek Rachel and Leah's advice and consent about leaving? 1. Rav Gifter When your mitzva creates a burden for another person, you have to discuss it with him first. 2. The Shlah, Reb Moshe, and lhbchlch Rav Sternbuch Mitzvos should be done with the understanding that they are Hashem's gifts to us. It is wrong to do them because we have no choice, and consider them to be burdens and hardships that we have to endure. It is important to understand this ourselves, and to explain to everyone involved why the mitzva is so right and so good, in order that they should realize and appreciate that Hashem gave us the mitzva for our to'eles. 3. The Seforno per Reb Chaim Brown Yaakov wasn't asking whether to go. He assumed they would go, but was asking for advice about the best way to go - should he tell Lavan, or sneak away. 4. Abarbanel The Abarbanel says in 28:16, on the story of the Sulam, that Yaakov made the neder because he wasn't sure if his vision was a prophecy or just a dream. This was, he says, Yaakov's first experience with Nevu'ah, so, as was the case with Shmuel Hanavi, he was not sure what had happened. If so, perhaps we can say the same is true here, that Yaakov wasn't be 100% sure whether it was nevu'ah or just a dream. I don't like this approach. It was not the first time, and he certainly knew by then that it was Nevu'ah. 5. RDNJS and ENE, crystallized by a he'ara from Rav Moish Pollack. This event is a perfect example of [baderekh shehadam rotzeh leileikh molikhin oso]. It seems clear that that the tzivui of Hashem was catalyzed by Yaakov's personal choice, by Yaakov's decision to follow this particular path. That being the case, Yaakov was obligated to discuss it with the people whose entire lives were affected by his choice. I really like this explanation because of how well it fits the order of pesukim and shtims with the story of Miriam and Aharon against Moshe. Discussion ... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:45:46 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ??? ??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????: The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it) [X] THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:47:02 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:47:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered Message-ID: Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide goes out" N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. Me- it's all about the demographics G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her original drive A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with women's issues.) E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold! Me- troop levels seem dangerously low M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it? E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. Me- see comment above Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. Me- or maybe yes C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic tradition. Me- amen. As in "instant classic" Really now Israel defines our Judaism. Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this] R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. Me- I hope that's true H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. Me- Ger vtoshav? From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 11 12:37:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211203708.GE8671@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together. > [Tur YD 116] ... because it is "qasheh latzara'as". And I think the tzara'as connection is key. Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a spiritual element. > The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) > seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef > [BY OC 173] Pesachim 76b. Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the "davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as. > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since > this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition > got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo > refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it) https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38 Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M. So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam (Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From zev at sero.name Thu Dec 12 16:05:33 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 12 18:52:32 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 02:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> References: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> Message-ID: On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. ------------------------- I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Mon Dec 16 08:23:08 2019 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I agree with Joel, not so simple. A few thoughts: 1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we are not meant to follow. 2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat (which only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small fish bones, which could lead to choking. 3. Source: the actual Gemara states: Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig]. Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it bad for odor and davar acher." Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous, rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first - if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor? 4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen: https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/ While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides, this study finds that fattier meat produces more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/ 5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy (?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like condition. 6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger; therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be understood ? and taught ? as merely customary. Alexander Seinfeld >On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. >>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the >>prohibition got extended so far > >It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can >cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. >------------------------- >I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the >danger >Kt >Joel rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Dec 17 09:58:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:58:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival Message-ID: For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/ [https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish Holidays - ou.org Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ... www.ou.org This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/ YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Dec 17 14:19:31 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. He starts off with: Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept. Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to ?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal. While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*. Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to the next generation. American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog. He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Dec 18 00:52:11 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> References: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> Message-ID: He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom ______________________________________________ I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century) THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 19:03:39 2019 From: hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com (Harry Maryles) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. ... > He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO > intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr > L'Goyim. Here are my thoughts: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1 HM Sent from my iPhone, Shirley. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:27:57 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] thanksgiving Message-ID: My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back: 1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?) 2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it as such) KT from a dual citizen Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:29:26 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them out there? KT Joel Rich From acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 05:32:33 2019 From: acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com (Allen Gerstl) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud. As a part of Talmud, Science (Maasei Bereishit) and Metaphysical Philosophy (Maasei Merkavah) involves knowing the works of HKBH with the goal of doing so to become closer to Him through evoking what is ultimately deep love (Ahava) of HKBH and wanting to "partner" with him in also helping the world fulfill His will and achieving such closeness. Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have explained this many times in this treatise. God is near to all who call Him, if they call Him in truth, and turn to Him. He is found by every one who seeks Him, if he always goes towards Him, and never goes astray. ..." This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models in our history. Kol Tuv, Eliyahu Gerstl, Toronto, Canada From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 18 14:51:09 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:19:31PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > See > https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ and part 2: https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world-part-2/ I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. 1. To start with the banal... The "hedgehog" metaphor isn't just about finding your company's strength and running with it. It's also about prioritizing other things out. We use the term all the time at work. We're not writing our own low-latency networking layer because there are people who do that full time. Our hedgehog is trading systems; why waste time doing something ourside that bailiwick -- find the company for whom low latency networking is their hedgehog. So, to really use the idea here would mean to leave learning to the yeshivish, davening to chassidim, go out of kiruv since Chabad does it, and just focus on leOr Goyim. Let everyone do what they do best, and hire out the other jobs to those who do each of those jobs best. Yissachar and Zevulun, but on steroids. The idiom was misused. (Totally irrelevant; it just felt good to get that off my chest.) 2. Second, a movement is a group of people who gather around an Ism, not the other way around. You can't save Mod-O by giving them a different ideal, even one you feel is related to their current one. That's killing one movement by creating a new thing to attract its adherents. Nothing too terrible. After all, the only value in a movement is whether it generates fealty to Torah umitzvos, not as an end in itself. You can't just tell people "here's your new ideal now". (Which is basically the same as RJR's point.) That mod-O crowd would have to buy into this leOr Goyim Ism for themselves. You can't just propose it in a Lehrhaus article. Look how many decades of leadership it took RYBS to put his fingerprint on the Mod-O ideal, and even that was only in the realm of nuance about what "u" means, and what "mada" does. You expect to totally redirect the community without having a rabbi's rabbi at the helm? Then figure out how to fire up a grass roots movement. Because we are not talking about a "hedgehog", we are talking about what idea people should put front-and-center in their life's mission statement. The target here is diaspora Mod-O. This leOr Goyim wouldn't be attractive to somoene living in a Jewish State. Nor to someone who doesn't believe in a Torah-and hashkafah with its openness to participating in general society. But it's not Mod-O's current Ism in any way similar in emphasis or behavior. 3. As for Torah uMada... I wrote here a couple of times that I don't think it speaks well to the masses. First, because RYBS's vision of "mada" really only appeals to the academically inclined. Second, because his "u" is dialectical. Not too many people even know what a neo-Kantian means by dialectic. It's not a synthesis. It is not compartmentalization of two opposites. It's finding meaning in their interplay, without expecting to get to resolution. Can the masses do that with Torah uMadda? Or are the outcome inevitably going to be primarily a population of compromizers and a population of compartmentalizers? TuM thus has the rare problem that imperfect following of this ideal is actually worse than not chasing it at all. Because it gives motive to compromising one's fealty to Torah! TiDE doesn't have these problems, since DE has more to do with being a refined human being as defined by being cultured. High culture, not academic knowledge. And synthesis, not dialetic. The Tzitz Eliezer, in a festschrift for RSRH, described TiDE as a hylomorphism (a tzurah vachomer). That derekh eretz is the substance to which a person is supposed to give Torah's form. AND, TiDE includes much of what R Gil Perl writes about here. But without making it the front-and-center. The idea of Yaft Elokim leYefes veYishkon be'ohalei Sheim is not just that Sheim should benefit from Yefes's yofi, but that Sheim has the job of being the moral and spiritual voice in the partnership. But again, making that aspect of things the centerpiece of the movement would be something new. 4. In terms of defensibility... We are given the whole Torah project in order that we be a "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh". Hashem introduced maamad Har Sinai with those words. Arguably the Torah is to the Jews as the Jews are supposed to be to the world -- the means of obtaining Devar Hashem. But, aniyei irekha qodmin... How do you make a movement about bringing Hashem's values to non-Jews that doesn't invest more effort in doing the same to our fellow Jews? The dialectic (sorry!) between universalism and Jewish particularlism can't be thrown out the window. Although, Universalism is in now, Jewish particularism being too close to the lately much maligned ideal of nationalism. I am not saying the idea that the Torah can be viewed as a way to make us a priesthood caste to the rest of the world is false. I am just wondering if that way of viewing the Torah can possibly attract people well enough to build a new movement around. And in fact in much of part II, RGP himself spells out reasons why, for which his solutions fall flat to my ear. The Post-Modern era is not one in which the idea of spreading the message to others is going to win adherents. His answer is to sure to brand on LeOr Goyim instead of Or laGoyim, to inform rather than to preach. "My calling is not to convince you of their certitude, but to humbly offer you a glimpse of their beauty." But it is exactly the kind of subtlety that would get lost in the translation to a mass movement. One slides into the other and out of fitting with the times. 5. OTOH, what is exciting many Mod-O Jews today on a spiritual plane is what a famous Jewish Action article (somewhat incorrectly) labeled Neo-Chassidus. A worldview built on the Peiczeza and Nesivos Shalom, Tanya, Bilvavli and the Chalban. With the music of Carlebach and lots of epigrams by Rav Nachman. The opposite direction from reaching out.... Deveiqus. A Me-and-G-d way of viewing Judaism. We even have a similar problem in The Mussar Institute. (Whose audience are "spiritually seeking Jews", primarily from the non-O world.) People are getting so caught up in middah work, the reaching in, that I have a personal agenda to focus on the bein adam lachaveiro part of R Yisrael Salanter's message. Perfection in middos being their maximizing our ability to be givers (REED), to be nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chazkel), leheitiv im hazulas (R Shimon Shkop), etc... Selling an Other-Focused Judaism, even one with a universalist spin, may not be the world's easiest sell. Myself, I would push an Other-Focused Judaism too, but without the deemphasis of ahavas Yisrael in favor of ahavas haberios. And, for that matter, leheitiv im hazulas applies to physical chessed to my wife, family, friends and neighborhood well before the hatavah of teaching the world what the Torah has to offer. My spirituality starts with concern for my stomach and your soul. If only I knew how to make that message attractive in a world where products are made popular by putting the word "I" in front of their names. But that's where my own quest as moved since the days when this list began. Mussar is a good idea, and one I hadn't given up on. But it never was a mass movement, and likely something that requires that much work never could be. But could in theory be practiced by anyone is a Torah based on the idea that Hillel's saying that the whole Torah is "de'alakh sani, lechaverkho lo sa'avid" was means seriously, or that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is a kelal gadol even after you leave the poster behind when you leave the 2nd grade classroom. A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit. If only I knew how to fight those elements of the zeigeist. But then, I am not trying to rebuild an already existing movement. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:00 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cellphones on Shabbos Message-ID: There is currently a thread on Areivim titled "more than one quarter of MO youth admit to using their phones on Shabbos", in which R' Danny Schoemann commented: > And I'm sure on Avoda we've discussed why and how using a phone > is Chillul Shabbos. If not, then maybe we should. I can very easily understand people for whom the temptation is so great that they succumb occasionally or even often. But I don't think that's what you're asking. Are you suggesting that these kids honestly don't realize that using a cell phone on Shabbos is assur? It seems to me: Even the most basic listing of the 39 Melachos is more complicated than is needed for this discussion. A discussion of Kavod Shabbos would also be counterproductive. Just ask them: "You don't turn lights on and off, do you? What the difference between that and everything that lights up on the screen?" Or ask them: "You wouldn't write something with pen and paper, would you? How is texting any different?" I concede that if we wanted to, we could get involved with all sorts of lomdish chakiras to answer those questions. But none will make a nafka mina regarding mutar/assur. They are all d'Oraisa/d'Rabanan distinctions, distracting us from the main point, which is that there is no way to use a cellphone on Shabbos except for legitimate medical needs. Kol hamosif gore'a. Comments? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Dec 18 14:37:11 2019 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:37:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel Message-ID: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah related): "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23)? Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information about this?? I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers.? Joseph Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 15:29:25 2019 From: rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> R. Micha, Thank you for including me on this rich and thoughtful post. Here are my thoughts, responding to some of your points in the order that you made them. - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? Did Chabad always emphasise the outreach which has become their trademark activity? I also wonder if the comparison can be made with the other movements that Rabbi Perl mentioned. Chabad, religious Zionism, Torah Im Derech Eretz and the yeshivah movement were all started by ideological leaders with a particular agenda. Was this so of Modern Orthodoxy? I guess what I'm questioning is whether Modern Orthodoxy is based on some kind of founding ideal and agenda which would be transformed if we were to go the path Rabbi Perl is suggesting. - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development in the Modern Orthodox community. It remains to be seen how much can be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer to is instructive. - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate central concept for the community. - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work you have given to the cause over decades. But doesn't a life commitment to Talmud Torah take work? Doesn't the Chabad shlichus demand self-sacrifice for others? I'm sure there are ways to respond to this, making chilukim, etc. but I am not as inclined to rule out the broad acceptance of an approach to middot, chesed, nosei b'ol, etc in our communities. As you know, I'm working on a conference to set a process in motion. If you don't try, you won't know! Best, Anthony Check out The Rise Together Project at and my website at Rabbi Anthony Knopf From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:58:07 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191222185807.GA18920@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:03pm CST, R Harry Maryles pointed us to his blog post "Of Hedgehogs and Ideology" at written in response to R Gil Perl's two-part essay on The Lerhaus. Responding to RHM's blog post: ... > That said, I do not believe that Modern Orthodoxy should make being an > or LaGoyim its passion no matter how noble it is. In my view it should be > defined the way it is traditionally defined as adhering to the ideology > of Torah U'Madda (TuM). And skipping ahead to his close for a minute: > Does that leave Modern Orthodoxy bereft of the hedgehog concept? > Perhaps. But in my view using a Mitzvah that does not really define what > we are really about in order to excite passion in us will in my view - > not work. I thought of this while responding to a very different conversation on Facebook. Someone advocated a more meiqil approach to halakhah on the grounds that the way O is done is scaring people away. I made two objections: C was only one failed attempt at this approach -- it just doesn't work. People just don't bother conforming to the lower standard. The other objection ended with an on-topic one-liner: You can't save something by redefining it. But it matters less here. We don't really need to save Mod-O as much as maximizing the shemiras Torah umitzvos of people who affiliate Mod-O. So, assuming I thought people would stay with that affiliaiton even as the movement redefined itself, I wouldn't object. But personally, the resulting movement wouldn't be for me. As I see it, halakhah has me prioritize those closer to me ahead of those further -- so immediate family, friends, aniyei iri, etc... and much further down are non-Jews. The triage doesn't fit making providing Kol Yaaqov to the community dialog our highest priority. The other problem is that I already bought into Mussar's adage that "my ruchnius means concern for my soul and your stomach". (Something the pre-War chassidishe rebbe who was the rav of the shtielb of my childhood also regularly said.) When it comes to others, gashmi aid is a higher priority than moral education. Again, a different triage. > Rabbi Perl rejects that. He references R' Norman Lamm who - as he points > out - literally wrote the book on that subject. Rabbi Lamm says that > TuM is not an ideology but rather pedagogy - a means of `arriving at > knowledge of the Creator through the avenues of science and the arts'. > In my view, that is a distinction without a difference. Aren't all > Orthodox Jewish ideologies ultimately about that? YU-style Mod-O is indeed Mod Yeshivish. The RIETS morning is no less a child of Volozhin than Lakewood is. But it's not true that "all Orthodox Jewish ideologies" are about "arriving at knowledge of the Creator". The Rambam would go for that. But chassidishe deveiqus is about having a relationship with the Borei, not learning about him. Knowing G-d, rather than knowing *about* G-d. More on this in a reply REGerstl's email, which became its own thread about the Rambam's notion of life's purpose. ... > Not only that, but TuM need not be studied only by > the elite anymore than Torah should. We each do the best we can with > the capabilities God gave to us to do it. Perhaps if you stick with *should*, but what's the motivator for learning mada for the majority of MO Jews? It's not overtly one of the 613, and the person isn't academic by nature, what's driving that time investment into secular studies. And where in the entire span of secular studies are they to choose among if they don't have a personal drive to pick up academic knowledge? On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:29:25PM +0000, R Anthony Knopf replied to my post, writing: > - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their > point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? ... Evolve is different than reinvent. Theseus's Paradox is a thought experiment about the ship Theseus sailed in stories recorded by Plutarch. During the course of his travels, say a sail tore and was replaced. Is it the same ship? Maybe on the next trip, he replaced the mast. Let's say over the course of his lifetime, every single plank and board in that ship was replaced. Theseus would have had continuous use of a ship, at all times it sure seemed like the same ship, and yet there is nothing in it now that was in the original. Is it the same ship? Identity evolves differently than sudden redefinition. But this is a bit off coarse. We're getting more caught up in whether, if the Mod-O infrastructure and membership would largely go for a leOr Goyim ideology, if they would still be Mod-O or not. Which gets more into the definition of a movement than either issues of right or wrong or of feasibility. I really wanted to focus on feasibility. I don't think MO membership would feel they're on the same ship if this were attempted. And so, it wouldn't work. > - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus > article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. > And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a > powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development > in the Modern Orthodox community... I think the question of ultimate purpose is a critical one, regardless of who we're talking about. I recently ran a workshop to help people write life- > be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of > "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer > to is instructive. But it manages to do so without leaving Torah uMada. It seems the Brisker tenor of Mod-Yeshivish a la RYBS is a less deeply held emotional issue. The feeling that we're staying on the same core idea is still there. After all, my youth included some very neo-Chassidus like moments at NCSY kumzeitzin. > - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding > an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the > difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than > "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of > Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent > academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate > central concept for the community. I do to, but... > - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a > popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work > you have given to the cause over decades... > But doesn't a life > commitment to Talmud Torah take work? But then, the learning that has become most popular is daf yomi. You get a feeling of acocmplishment. It's like the difference between a second hand and an hour hand on a watch. The second hand is doing 3,600 times the work, but you can see it working. An hour hand.... Working on middos is slow. There is no "I finished my first mesechta" or "500 blatt" or whatever. You work and you work, and eventually you notice the hour hand is pointing to a new hour when your wife says something about how you've been with the kids lately. And even that is months or years away from then you started. Well, now that I have split my dream into two, I can more easily articulate it. I hope. A central idea for AishDas is to plant the seed of "a vaad in every shul", paralleling the spread of daf Yomi. We had other ideas that we would "get to later", but really the only project we ever invested effort in was the spread of ve'adim. My dream was not that you would have a whole movement of people actively working on their middos. Halevai you could, but as you just noticed, I don't think the masses are ready for years and years of work before seeing signficant results. Character change is slow. Rather, I thought that the existence of those 5-6 people in the va'ad would have secondary effects on the rest of the shul. All the value we're supposed to be giving ehrlachkeit would stay in the discussion. We would be able to see a Yahadus in which how you act on line for the bus is no less a defining feature of who is "one of us" as is what a person eats. More recently, really since I was waiting for the editing of my sefer, I started trying to put another buzzword out there -- Other-Focused Orthodoxy. Because there has to be exploration on how to get to an ehrlachkeit-centered rather than frummkeit-centered observance through ways other than hoping the kind of people AishDas was reaching to would have cultural influence on the kelal. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:19:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] The Rambam's Hedgehog (was: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191222181924.GA22988@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:32pm GMT, R Eliyahu Gerstl responded to RGP's thesis: > I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's > concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct > to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be > considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. > The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch > davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: > Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud... I don't see two points here in the Rambam, Yesodei haTorah 2:1-3 and Hil' Talmud Torah 1:11. In YhT the Rambam defines ahavas H' and yir'as Hashem in terms of a thirst to know about G-d. Because, as I wrote above (in response to RHM), it seems to me the Rambam defines his "deveiqus" (as REG puts it) as an intellectual unity. "What is the way to love Him and feel yir'ah for Him? When a person contemplates His Actions and His Creations, which are nifla'im gedolim, and sees His Chokhmah in it... immediately he love, praises, glorifies, and mis'aveh ta'avah gedolah ot know the sheim hagadol..." First, in TT 1:11, the shelish betalmud is halachic dialectic -- "... until he knows what are the iqar of the midos [shehaTorah nideshes bahen] and how to extract what is assur and what is mussar, andthe like, from what he studied from the oral tradition." Not aggadita. We do find aggadita included with Mada in YhT 2:2 as the means to ahavas veyir'as Hashem. Different mitzvos than TT. To skip to the end of this post too because I want to respond to it together with the above: > This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing > on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of > HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by > a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models > in our history. What neo-Chassidus shows is that the Mod-O Jew is looking for some experiential / emotional Judaism. But in any case, I don't think the Rambam's parallel to deveiqus is a major element in today's hashkafic discourse. Too cerebral, too much aimed only at the academic. I also amnot sure the Rambam's hashkafah was particularly popular among Chazal either. > Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 To me, the core thought of this last pereq of the Moreh is his ranking of the 4 types of perfection the gemara expects of a navi -- wealth, health, intellect and middos. The Rambam flips the last two, not only in the order he presents them, but the Rambam is clear that these are asvending types of perfection. That only intellectual perfection is a permanent refinement of the most core part of the self: The fourth kind of perfection is the true perfection of man: the possession of the highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards God. With this perfection man has obtained his final object; it gives him true human perfection; it remains to him alone; it gives him immortality, and on its account he is called man. Examine the first three kinds of perfection, you will find that, if you possess them, they are not your property, but the property of others; according to the ordinary view, however, they belong to you and to others. But the last kind of perfection is exclusively yours... And as REG also quoted: > ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by > him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the > knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the > manner in which it influences His creatures in their production > and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will > then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, > and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have > explained this many times in this treatise. Really, more so than middos and character? And so I thought for decades, until I saw RYBS said differently. Not that I understand how RYBS reaches that concludion, given how much of pereq 54. And the opening chapters of the Moreh about how the eitz hadaas messed up the pursuit of knowledge by introducing precondition steps; the definition of nevu'ah as an overflow from the Active Intellect; 3:18 where he defines a homo sapien's personhood in proportion to their knowledge, so that a person receives hashgachah peratis is proportional to yedi'ah; and 3:51 and the castle garden metaphor at the start of the Moreh's closing section. Really, it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the Moreh Nevuchim. BUT RYBS understands this section of 3:54 as saying that even yedi'ah isn't the end of the human endevor, chesed, mishpat and tzedaqah are. Looking at pereq 53: This chapter encomapsses the meanig of three sheimos that needs explaining: chesed, mitzpat, and tzedaqah. And so on, until: We have shown that "chesed" refers to gemilus chesed gamur, and "tzedaqah" to any good that one does because of the loftiness of middos, to thereby complete one's nefesh, and "mishpat" sometimes has an outcome of neqamah, and sometimes tov. We already epxlained how distant attributes are [from theology][ that any attribute one attributes to the Deity yisbarakh in the books of nevi'im is an attribute of action. ... And then the Rambam returns to this idea later in 54. The navi does not content himself with explaining that the knowledge of G-d is the highest kind of perfection; for if this only had been his intention, he would have said, ... He says, however, that man can only gain praise for himself in the knowledge of G-d and in the knowledge of His "Ways and Attributes", which are His actions, as we have shown (MN 1:54) in expounding the passage, "har'eini na es Kevodekha" (Exod. 38:13). We are thus told in this passage that the Divine acts which ought to be known, and ought to serve as a guide for our actions, are, ch??es, mishpat, antzedaqah." Another very important lesson is taught by the additional phrase, "ba'aretz." It implies a fundamental principle of the Torah; it rejects the theory of those who boldly assert that God's providence does not extend below the sphere of the moon, and that the earth with its contents is abandoned, that "azav H' es ha'aretz" (Yechezqeil 8:12). It teaches, as has been taught by the greatest of all wise men in the words, "Lashem ha'atez umloa'ah" (Shemos 9:29), that His providence extends to the earth in accordance with its nature, in the same manner as it controls the heavens in accordance with their nature.... And so on. So far, all about knowledge of HQBH. Even chesed, tzedaqah umishpat are about knowing *Hashem's* HZu"M, and that there is hashgachah in this world. And then, this: The navi thus, in conclusion, says, "ki ba'eileh chafatzti, ne'um H'" i.e., My object [in saying this] is that you shall practise HZu"M the earth. In a similar manner we have shown (MN 1:54) that the object of the enumeration of H's 13 Middos is the lesson that we should acquire similar attributes and act accordingly. The object of the above passage is therefore to declare, that the perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired -- as far as this is possible for man -- the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek HZu"M, and thus to imitate the ways of G-d. We have explained this many times in this treatise. So, the purpose of all this knowledge is to know what to emulate. And yet the perfection of the knowledge is a greater perfection than the perfection of the middos one acquired by emulation? What am I missing? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 16:11:11 2019 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: In Avodah v37n97, one of R'Micha's last thoughts was > A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit < which brings us back to TiDE and RSRH's Mensch Yisrael. --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 03:18:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > What percentage of people would like to know how they are > really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self- > image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not > telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them > out there? Personally, I would love to know about the things I do that are viewed negatively by others. If I had that information, I could either correct my actions, or I could explain myself to them and thereby improve their views of me, and possibly even improve how *they* act. However, as much as I would like that, I generally do not tell others when I view them negatively. To do so successfully requires a great deal of tact and sensitivity, and experience has shown me that I usually fail when I attempt these things. I believe that this approach is supported by the halachos of Tochacha: attempt to correct people, but first, do no harm. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 24 23:14:21 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 07:14:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv Message-ID: From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, it should be done by example. My response: Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner consistent with the will of HKB"H. If the result is we are mekarev them (as imho it would be if we act this way), great BUT that is not our ultimate goal (much as we don't do mitzvot for reward, it's an ancillary benefit) Your thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Dec 26 09:42:22 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=96_A_Torah_View?= Message-ID: https://rabbiefremgoldberg.org/audio_listing/celebrating-birthdays-a-torah-view/ I think that many will be surprised by this talk. There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 26 20:05:48 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 04:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=E2=80=93_A_Torah_View?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F184740-02E5-426B-85CE-342B8AA10C63@sibson.com> There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL ______________________________________________ I gave a shiur on this a number of years back. My main take away was it should be used as an opportunity for reflection, Not A celebration per se Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 20:07:55 2019 From: jmeisner at gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:07:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel In-Reply-To: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:36 AM Joseph Kaplan via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel > in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in > Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah > related): > > "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah > scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival > in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who > were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, > etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23< > https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/babylonian_exile/>)? > > Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: > > ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any > assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely > the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during > this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the > assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information > about this?? > > I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about > is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows > what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article > and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical > sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher > butchers.? > I assume that the author was taking creative license based on Sanhedrin 38a, which states more generally that the galus of Tzidkiyahu was pushed earlier so that they would arrive while the charash and the masger of the galus of Yechonya were still alive. To address RDYL's question, what would such help have looked like? A brigade of soldiers (or elephants)? A steady stream of volunteers? Massive infusions of gold that could be used to buy modern weaponry on the black market? Considering the distance between Bavel and Eretz Yisroel and the difficulty in traveling between one and the other, this question may have a very modern bias to it. I was going to suggest that the king of Persia may have further objected to any of this assistance leaving his territory, but, according to Wikipedia, the Parthians did not conquer Bavel until shortly after the neis of Chanukah, prior to which it was until the control of the... Seleucids. Hence, the Seleucid governor of Bavel certainly would not have approved of any aid being provided to the rebellion in Eretz Yisroel. Did the decrees against Torah in Eretz Yisroel also apply in Bavel? I've never heard this discussed. More generally, it seems that we (or maybe just I?) know little about the Jews of Bavel during the time period in question. Ezra (and perhaps Zerubavel) left there a couple of centuries earlier, while Nechemya left from and Mordechai and Esther were in Paras. There are a handful of tanna'im called Bavli'im, but the center of the chachmei hamishnah was clearly in Eretz Yisroel. While it's conceivable (although perhaps not likely) that there were direct lines from the yeshivos of the charash and masgeir to the yeshivos of Rav and Shmuel, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was strong religious leadership the whole time that would have coordinated such an assistance drive for the Chashmona'im. Just a few thoughts. A lichtige Chanukah (What's the origin of this phrase, by the way?), Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Mon Dec 30 05:19:42 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Anti-Semitism is Out of Control Message-ID: <7172577B-31F7-4CA0-B25C-35C37FB57BFF@cox.net> It is imperative to address the rampant anti-Semitism which is on the rise exponentially. Please watch the following (under) 10 minute television interview of former NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind. It is time we realize that the laws of the ?rodef? definitely apply to the anti-Semite. https://www.foxnews.com/media/dov-hikind-hanukkah-stabbing-new-york-anti-semitism From micha at aishdas.org Tue Dec 31 22:03:37 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 01:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro Message-ID: <588c3f15-5b25-452b-9857-ca858cb7cd12@Michas-iPad> CC: RRYE So, RRYEisenman's recent Short Vort has been making the rounds. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1815470 (Carried as OpEd pieces in both The Yeshiva World and Matzav.) RRYW writes: Op-Ed: Important "Checklist" Of Things To "Bring" To The Siyum Hashas December 31, 2019 11:00 am As the horrifying events of Monsey are still so fresh in our minds, coupled with other over manifestations of anti-Semitism in the New York area, it behooves all of us to rethink our preparations for the great convocation of Jews on Wednesday in Met-Life Stadium. ... Keep in mind that this event is a momentous one for Kavod HaTorah and for Kavod Shomayim. The last-minute items to remember to pack: 1. SMILE a. Most important: remember to bring your best smile with you. ... e. Keep in mind that all of the workers, security people, police, maintenance people, cleaning staff, parking attendants and anyone else working are human beings. f. These are the same human beings who our Sages say about them, "Beloved are human beings, for they was created in the image of Hashem...as it says, "For in the image of G-d, He made human beings". (Genesis 9:6) g. You must smile when you see someone created in the image of Hashem. h. Can you think of any other greater irony than for 100,000 plus people who are the children of Hashem who have come to give honor to Hashem, not recognizing those who are also created in His image? i. Smile, smile and smile more at each and every person you meet. 2. Happy New Year! a. These people are all working on what is to them one of the most important and universally observed holidays: the day which is called New Years Day. b. It is totally irrelevant that these people are also getting paid ... 3. Thank You a. This might be the most important item to remember to bring. ... Most importantly, we have the opportunity to bring Kavod and honor to His Holy name. Note his repeated appeal to bein adam laMaqom (BALM) terms. Smile at a person because he is a tzelem E-lokim and it is part of giving honor to HQBH. Or qiddush hasheim / avoid chillul hasheim. And this theme came up more in discussions of this OpEd on social media. But I have an open question about this strategy that I have been chewing on for years. Maybe people here have opinions. We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom. And so, in the short run, it makes sense to sell bein adam lachaveiro by emphasizing the BALM aspects of it -- respecting Hashem by respecting a tzelem E-lokim, and chillul vs. qiddush hasheim. But... I am not sure if I like the message or not. Isn't the road out of this whole mess a realization that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is the more central principle of the Torah? If we reinforce the idea that it is only "really" against the Torah is it interferes with my relating to the Creator, will we be in the same boat a generation from now? Are we getting people to do the right thing, and atttidue will follow any behaviors we can encourage? Can we create the right habit this way? Or are we reinvorcing the imbalanced attitude, and we'll never get out of this "frumkeit" hole? I have picked up the conundrum repeatedly since starting on my book. I don't have an answer, though. Your thoughts? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and http://www.aishdas.org/asp this was a great wonder. But it is much more Author: Widen Your Tent wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "mensch"! -Rav Yisrael Salanter From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 1 18:49:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Av Message-ID: A thought for Tu B'AV: R'SBG (taanit 30b) designates the two most yamim tovim (holidays) Yom Kippur and Tu B'av. While the gemara lists a number of events which occurred on Tu B'av, I've always been partial to Yom Tvar Hamaagal (the day they stopped cutting wood for the wood pile). Initially I favored it as a paradigm for priority juggling (going back to Torah learning when your job is done), but it occurred to me that the pairing with Yom Kippur is exquisite - Yom Kippur being representative of the short spurt/high profile avodat Hashem while Tu B'av represents the ongoing low profile diligent avodah of daily life. We need both! GCT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Oct 2 09:44:52 2019 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:44:52 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Oct 1, 2019 05:57:56 pm Message-ID: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a few weeks. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 2 15:57:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20191002225720.GA3766@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 04:44:52PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: >> In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a > few weeks. I know Rashi says it's like "beshegam" with a segol, and then explains it as "bishvil shegam". And maybe the Torah contracts "asher" only when sandwitched after a be-? It would explain the uniqueness. But I find Ibn Ezra's comparison to the shin in shekhakha (in "ashrei ha'am shekakha lo") more compelling, and the Ramban did too. The Netziv has the shin as part of the shoresh, as in "mishagmaso". Etc... As RJFS writes, it's "one *possible* exception". GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder] http://www.aishdas.org/asp isn't complete with being careful in the laws Author: Widen Your Tent of Passover. One must also be very careful in - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF the laws of business. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 2 22:13:18 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut Message-ID: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. [PS: I'm not sure whether this belongs on Avodah or Areivim] -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 3 11:37:39 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 > We know that Pas Paltur, "Baker's Bread," is actually permitted year > round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all > one's bread products are strictly Pas Yisrael. But what do these terms > mean? And why should we be stringent with this, of all halachos, and > why specifically now? And what about Shabbos? > Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter > of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily > available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and > the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot > purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress > that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. See the above URL for more. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 3 16:50:05 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003235005.GA11274@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 06:37:39PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 >> Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter >> of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily >> available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and >> the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot >> purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress >> that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. So that while the Yerushalmi's case of eating chullin betaharah is more bein adam lamaqom... When it comes to pas palter during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah, are saying that for AYT we make a point of supporting other Jews, even if our bread may be a little pricier or not as tasty as the rest of the year. More a bein adam lachaveiro practice. GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger Mussar is like oil put in water, http://www.aishdas.org/asp eventually it will rise to the top. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yisrael Salanter - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:27:05 2019 From: simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:27:05 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut In-Reply-To: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> References: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:54 PM Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: > https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 > > It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The > author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and > the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. Powerful indeed, one of the high points of the RH liturgy. By the way, the London S&P mahzor and the Keter Shem Tov, both attribute it to R. Yehuda Halevi. From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:47:59 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice Message-ID: Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the current practice? GT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:51:42 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes Message-ID: Excerpt Recent correspondence: > Sholom u'vracha, > I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It > strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly > fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two > different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av > practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other > seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts. > How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz" [ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb] I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather 1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion) GT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 07:23:52 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population Message-ID: <20191010142352.GA31063@aishdas.org> One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers. This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as "clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os. Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole 6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the time the Kenaanim get to the scene.... See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel or numberous other links. They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 10 09:48:15 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 11:48:15 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these > activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? > A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom > Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical > instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies. Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments if they break while playing. It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another to continue these peripheral extensions. > On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived > the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen > Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason > presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing > and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning > a musical instrument. And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah. Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e. that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording. How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres, or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres. That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites "acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah would be equally exempt. And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments themselves. The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the first place. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: >That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod >haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites >"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a >waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah >would be equally exempt. ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3 and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY. For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 12:58:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted... ... > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the 9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians. Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3. There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to be about until at least 400 years after Chazal. In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah. Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique nighttime reading. Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat. It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside from it being minag, not din, anyway.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:59:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: > > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. > >But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of >minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is D'Rabbonon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 13:18:53 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > D'Rabbonon. Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level because of the act, not because of the date. Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 13:41:35 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22.7A.01711.4D99F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:18 PM 10/10/2019, you wrote: >Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? If I were in EY on SA I would not dance. (Truth of the matter is that I do not dance on ST anymore, given my broken Patella.) It does seem strange to me to have Yizkor and dancing on the same day. If you read Ya'ari's sefer you will see that the ARI danced on Motzoei SA and not on SA itself. He did not dance on SA itself in EY. However, in a sefer that describes him dancing it says mistakenly that he danced and encouraged others to do the same on the night of SA. This is not true. I note that in EY there are big celebrations on the night after SA with music to accompany the dancing with the Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Oct 10 14:18:40 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> On 10/10/19 4:47 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice > changed from allowing the body to decay and then ?burying? the bones, to > the current practice? > GT As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for farming became less important. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 06:21:52 2019 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > > D'Rabbonon. > > Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? > I believe that doing so would be a great Tikkun. The heter "lichvod haTorah" doesn't convince me at all: all the dancing and singing and drinking and shmoozing *while the Torah is being read* seem to me the opposite of kavod. Ditto the practice of calling up everybody in the shul, which is not even a halachic requirement. I only wish I could find a minyan that agrees with me on these points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Oct 13 06:03:10 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> Message-ID: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Sun Oct 13 07:21:13 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] suffering/inui Message-ID: I'm looking into whether increased inui/suffering is ever something to seek (or at least not avoid). Besides yom kippur and other fasts are there other possible applications? I've heard some say childbirth -any sources? Any others? Gt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandels at ou.org Sun Oct 13 07:01:43 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail>, Message-ID: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. --- Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On October 13, 2019 at 9:03:19 AM EDT, Prof. L. Levine wrote: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. Legal Disclaimer The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:38:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions: 1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods? Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum? 2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter? Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to be a staple also? Why be lenient? I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur. << Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of thought. >> If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as a snack, and not as a meal. In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas Palter. So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to consider PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:38:38 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mimetics Message-ID: https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/ > "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted > great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on > Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of > legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt > an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this > persuasion conduct herself?" Optimal? Mimetics be darned! Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:35:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? Message-ID: Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community norms...)] Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From chidekel at mail.gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:50:54 2019 From: chidekel at mail.gmail.com (Meir Shinnar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret Message-ID: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Seth Mandel > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers > (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent > of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were > known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. Meir Shinnar From mandels at ou.org Wed Oct 16 14:15:42 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:15:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it. From: Meir Shinnar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM > It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik > ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just > some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret > (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, > even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures > I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l > said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken, and he was much more than a "fellow traveler." But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases lahalokho. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel Rabbinic Coordinator The Orthodox Union Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels at ou.org From hanktopas at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:42:41 2019 From: hanktopas at gmail.com (Henry Topas) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: Mo'ed Tov: I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this structure has been instituted? Is it different in nuschaot other than Ashkenaz? Shkoyech and a Git'n Kvitel, HT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:00:21 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:15:42PM +0000, Mandel, R/Dr Seth responded to R/Dr Meir Shinar: >> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l >> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. > As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great > talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that > he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that > are against established halokho... Not my experience at all. He does work hard to find justifications for things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, not the practices of Chassidim. On the subject of Litvaks who considered the AhS one of their own: Add the early RMF, who wrote in vol 1 that the AhS was poseiq acharon, only to switch to saying so of the MB in a later volume. (My guess is that when R Moshe saw that lemaaseh the MB was being followed over the Ahs in nearly all quarters, he stopped holding out.) Also, R' Dovid Lifshitz and R' S Yaakov Weinberg both told their talmidim to turn to the AhS. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but by rubbing one stone against another, Author: Widen Your Tent sparks of fire emerge. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:14:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> Message-ID: <20191017211443.GA16981@aishdas.org> On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 02:01:43PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote: > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers ... True. But the Minchas Elazar's validation of the practice is so cute I just need to share it. (It's been a few years since the last time.) The gemara writes (47a): meisiv ha yasvei, berukhi lo mevorkhei Rav Huna bar Bizna and all the gedolei hador "sitting they would sit, but the berakhah they didn't bless". The Muncaczer wonder about the double language. Why wouldn't the gemara just say "ha yasvei velo mvorkhei"? So he suggests that the gemara is to be read as bitmiya: "Do you think sitting they would sit when the berakhah they couldn't bless?!" As I said, cute. Totally unconvincing to this Litvak, but I admit the creativity. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From zev at sero.name Fri Oct 18 07:41:57 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:41:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c715c42-4f5f-8013-d89a-fd77762fcb25@sero.name> On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Davening isn't structured with kaddish opportunities in mind. On the contrary, kaddish is an afterthought, tacked on to the bits before and after the main event. Since on Yom Kippur we (at least in principle) go right through the day there's no need to conclude each tefilla with ketoret and/or Aleinu, and thus no opportunity for kaddish afterwards. I davened at a Sefaradi minyan, where things were different. First, after musaf there was Ketoret/Ledavid Mizmor/Ledavid Ori, followed by a kaddish (though surprisingly it was not Al Yisrael), and then Alenu followed by chatzi kaddish. After mincha there was a perek of tehilim and alenu, each followed by kaddish. There was nothing after ne'ilah, but there was a kaddish after each of the sifrei torah in the morning. In addition, as is my custom, I learned Kelim 24 and Mikvaot 7 before musaf and again before mincha and concluded them after those tefilot, with Kadish Al Yisrael. I seem to recall there was also something learned during the 40-minute break before mincha, followed by kaddish Al Yisrael, but my memory is a bit hazy. (I do remember that mishnayot Yoma was learned after maariv, followed by kaddish.) If you had been at an L shul, your kaddish opportunities would have been as follows: After musaf there would be tehillim and mishnayos; after mincha there would be Ledavid Ori; and after neilah there would be Ketores, tehillim, and mishnayos; each followed by kaddish, plus one on the first sefer torah in the morning. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mandels at ou.org Fri Oct 18 08:13:10 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> , <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> Message-ID: From: Micha Berger Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:00 PM > Not my experience at all. [AhS] does work hard to find justifications for > things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me > tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos > do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, > not the practices of Chassidim. He works hard to find bases for minhogim of many groups. His defense of the chasidic customs that violate halokho, however seems to notable, because he does it for all of the three or four cases that are directly against all the poskim. I am not enough of an expert to evaluate whether it is egregiously different than his defense of other minhogim. But it is fairly well known that he became a great admirer of the Tzemach Tzedek after he first met him. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel From micha at aishdas.org Sat Oct 19 18:57:01 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Barukh Dayan haEmes - Rabbanit Shoshana Boublil In-Reply-To: <10375da9-e283-47e9-ae6d-25316c491142@Michas-iPad> Message-ID: <39cbf7cd-2d3e-48d7-b363-268c0ac5baf2@Michas-iPad> I regret having to share the news that Rt Shoshana Boublil has lost her battle against cancer. The levayah will be tomorrow at 12:30 Bet Olamin haYarqon, Shaar Ge?ulah Her family will be sitting shiv?ah at her home. The address was sent to Areivim. I would say more, but I have no idea how the laws of hespedim on ch?m apply to this situation. -Micha > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isaac at balb.in Sun Oct 20 00:33:15 2019 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini At erect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7F7B49-E256-4064-B391-46540CA77860@balb.in> From: "Mandel, Seth" One must also bear in mind that apart from his friendship and esteem for the Tzemach Tzedek (Agav, The Beis HaLevi also sent Shaylos to the Tzemach Tzedek) one needs to remember that he was Rav in a town populated by Lubavitcher Chassidim as I noted here https://pitputim.me/2016/11/14/what-should-we-be-doing-during-the-lifting-of-the-torah-part-4/ In respect of Hagba and how that is done. _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik Z"L From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:28:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Time for dinner on Shmini Atzeres Message-ID: Regarding the late afternoon of Hoshana Raba in Chutz Laaretz, Mishneh Brura 668:7 writes: <<< The Acharonim conclude that one should not eat in the evening until dark. However, b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi, he should *not* say Leshev Basukkah, because he already accepted Shmini Atzeres in davening and in kiddush. >>> >From this, it seems that the MB has no problem beginning Shmini Atzeres early, with davening and/or kiddush, his only problem is with eating. He explains this more deeply in Shaar Hatziuy 668:12: <<< The reason is because it is still part of the seventh day, and he is obligated by the Torah to eat in the sukkah. How can he eat without daying Leshev Basukkah?!?!? But to say Leshev Basukkah is not possible, because it would be a contradiction, because in davening and kiddush, he declared it to be Shmini Atzeres! >>> Writing in chutz laaretz, the MB clearly presumes that this person *is* in the sukkah, and the only problem is the bracha. I don't understand why the bracha is such a big deal. What's wrong with simply omitting the Layshev? Let's phrase it this way: This person has two choices: (A) At this time, during which there might be a Torah obligation to eat in the sukkah, he can eat in the sukkah without the Birkas Hamitzvah. (B) Because of the uncertainty about saying the bracha, he should avoid eating in the sukkah entirely, until this uncertain time ends. - It seems clear to me that it would be far preferable to choose A and thereby possibly do a mitzvah d'Oraisa albeit without a bracha, rather than just sit around squandering that opportunity. Why am I wrong? What did I miss? (By the way, please note the MB's words "b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi". I am curious what he would advise for a person who said Kiddush and washed Netilas Yadayim, but did NOT say Hamotzi yet. Shaar Hatziyun 668:13 (near end) is lenient for the last quarter-hour before dark, but what if it were earlier? Would he really tell a person not to eat yet?) None of the above would apply in Eretz Yisrael, where there are real problems with eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, even without a bracha. Similarly, in Eretz Yisrael it's not possible to eat in the house until dark, because of the safek chiyuv d'Oraisa. But my next question, I think, is equally valid in Israel and Chu"l: Suppose it is raining on Hoshana Raba afternoon - wither in Eretz Yisrael or not - and the rain is expected to continue into the night, and he is therefore planning to eat indoors. Is there any reason to delay dinner? The MB has no problem with davening or kiddush early, and there is no question of saying Leshev. So why not? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Oct 22 18:11:18 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:11:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon Message-ID: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, then how was it he ate of the tree? Does that mean that Chava already had the yetzer hara? And if not, why would she even have been tempted. With only the yezter tov, they would be like the malachim. [Email #2. -micha] In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash able to speak and cause them to sin? From arie.folger at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:42:01 2019 From: arie.folger at gmail.com (Arie Folger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Reb Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Reb Zev Zero gave an important part of the answer. But I want to take this opportunity to express my astonishment that not more people are realizing that the lack of 'Alenu after Mussaf isn't a minhag of Yom Kippur, but a result of the original minhag, still practiced in Yekki communities, that Alenu is not recited between two tefillot that follow immediately after one another. I.e. when saying Ma'ariv immediately after Minchah, no 'Alenu is said after Minchah, or, when Minchah is said immediately after Mussaf. In many shuls, there is no break between Mussaf and Minchah (actually, no break on Yom Kippur, period), which is why there is no 'Alenu. Since most shuls, however, introduced a break between Mussaf and Minchah, it stands to reason that we should say 'Alenu and Kaddish. -- Arie Folger, Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 23 08:13:37 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] blessings Message-ID: Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 13:10:06 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] blessings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191023201006.GB20617@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:13:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should > be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because > brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) I think the former, looking at the phrase in context in the gemara. R Elazar quoting R Chanina continues (Megillah 15a): ... For two gedolei hador were blessed by two hedyotos and they were fulfilled. And they [the gedolim] are David (Shemu'el 2 24:23) and Daniyel (6:17).... And then he continues about qelelas hedyot, with Avimelekh cursing Sarah (Bereishis 20:16) causing Yitzchaq's blindness as an example. Aside from the indications from the examples... Why would R' Chanina advise us to increase the chance of a qelalah working by believing in it? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is a stage and we are the actors, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but only some of us have the script. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Menachem Nissel - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 14:43:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of the Universe. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:32:03 +0000 Subject: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis ... GOOD MORNING! How old is the universe? 13.8 billion years or 6,000 years? Did Creation take place in 6 twenty-four hour days or were they longer? This week I bring to you a fascinating approach from a fascinating man. Daniel Friedmann holds a master's degree in engineering physics and is the Chairman of Carbon Engineering, a company dedicated to removing co2 from the air to solve climate change and ex-CEO of the Canadian company that made the robotic arm for the Space Shuttle. He lays out his research in his book, The Biblical Clock. Why did Mr. Friedmann start investigating the connection between the Torah's story of Creation and the scientific timeline? The Talmudic sages teach that 'God looked into the Torah and created the world" (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. 1:2). Mr. Friedmann concluded that if the Torah is the blueprint of the universe, then the Torah account of creation and scientific account of the age of the Universe must coincide. About 700 years ago Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the assertion that time -- while God was creating and man had not yet appeared -- was different than time as we keep today. Mr. Friedmann, based on this insight and on classical sources, aligns the dates of key events as described in Genesis 1 and 2 with those derived from scientific theory and observation. How? One Creation Day = 1,000 x 365.25 x 7,000 = 2.56 billion years. The factor of 1,000 comes directly from Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day" -- where we learn that one day for God equals 1,000 human years. The 365.25 number is simply a conversion from days to years (being the number of days in a year). The factor of 7,000 relates to cosmic cycles. The Talmud, (Sanhedrin 97a), which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." Various Kabbalistic works, dating back to the first century, write that there are 7 cosmic cycles of 7000 thousand years (analogous to the sabbatical cycles). The factor of 7000 relates to these cycles. (This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs). The Torah provides a detailed timeline of the creation events. Genesis describes the timeline for the formation of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Each event is provided in sequence with a time of occurrence. For example, we are told that the sun was completed at the end of Day 4, that life first appeared in the oceans at the beginning of Day 5, and that the animals were made in Day 6; careful examination of the Genesis text reveals about 20 separate creation events. Much of the information in Genesis is further detailed in the Oral Torah to reveal a more accurate timeline of events. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b) provides the detailed account of Day 6, hour-by-hour: "The day consisted of twelve hours. In the first hour, his (Adam's) dust was gathered... in the fifth, he arose and stood on his feet; in the sixth, he gave (the animals) their names; in the seventh, Eve became his mate; in the eighth, they ascended to bed as two and descended as four (i.e., Cain and Abel are born); in the ninth he entered the Garden of Eden and he was commanded not to eat of the tree; in the tenth, he sinned; in the eleventh, he was tried; and in the twelfth, he was expelled (from Eden)..." Mr. Friedmann then calculates that the Age of the universe from the start of Day 1 to today: exactly 13.74 billion years, coinciding with the latest scientific measurements. Beginnings of life: from first thing on Day 5 ("let the waters teem" Gen. 1:20) to today corresponds to 3.52 billion years which is in agreement with the scientific time for "universal ancestor" -- the single cell. Plant life (on the land): from hours 6 to 9 on Day 6 until today ("God planted a garden... and there He placed the man... And God caused to sprout from the ground every tree" Gen. 2:8, 9) corresponds to 426-106 million years ago which he reports is in agreement with the fossil record. The Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science.... ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Daniel Friedmann Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:38 PM Micha Berger wrote: > Isn't this the a minor variant on what R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote in 1979 in > "The Age of the Universe - A Torah-True Perspective"? > http://nleresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/the_age_of_the_universe___a_torah_true_perspective.pdf > If so, you might want to see R' Ari Kahn's obections in Explorations, which > he excerpted on the Avodah email list at > http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n080.html Hi thank you, no this is different from Rabbi Kaplan's work as detailed in my book. RK had the cycles of 7000 occurring before day 1 this was not in accordance with the Arizal. In the approach here the 7000 is for each creation day based on commentary on Etz Hayim This provides an age of the universe of 13.74 vs 15 billion and allows calculation of another 17 events All but one match scientific measurement. Sorry for the short answer .... From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:12:17 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:12:17 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Which gate did they use to go into the azara when bringing the korban pesach? Message-ID: It is clear that they used shaar nikanor but the question is did they use the other gates of the azara as well? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:31:49 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 06:31:49 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Oct 25 07:14:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191025141420.GE25728@aishdas.org> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 06:31:49AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get > 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly > changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up > with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? This is a problem with concordism in general. Look at how well the Rambam held up. However, if you believe there is only one emes, and aren't ready to simply dismiss or ignore whatever evidence we do have, then you would feel there is a duty to keep on finding convergence. Not in the tenor of "science finally caught up to Torah", more "see, the two needn't contradict; you don't have to choose." :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but when a prophet dies, his influence is just Author: Widen Your Tent beginning. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Soren Kierkegaard From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Oct 27 05:14:25 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Noach Message-ID: <562504E5-2AC5-4CBA-BD30-59C27C348441@cox.net> In Parshat Noach, Ch.8 verse 2, the word "vayikalei" (and the rain from heaven was restrained) appears only twice in the entire Bible. The only other place it occurs is in Parshat Vayakhel where Moses commanded the Jews to contribute materials for the building of the Tabernacle. The Jews responded with such energy that Moses soon had more than enough material and he had to tell the people to cease. (We should be so lucky today). The people dutifully complied, as the Torah records: "And the people were restrained from bringing" (Exodus 36:6). The Baal HaTurim who pointed out the rare occurrence of this word says that this connection reminds us that when God rains down His blessings, people increase their level of tzedakah. But when the rain stops, so does their generosity. (Actually, I would have thought it was just the opposite because if God did not rain down his blessings, people would be afraid that they've sinned and therefore would increase their level of tzedakah. But as soon as the blessings rain down, people in their prosperity forget others and are less generous. I would tend to think it really depends upon the person, etc.). From ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:06:53 2019 From: ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> References: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2019, 5:43 PM, at 5:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote: >The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had >when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of >the Universe. https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/aryeh-kaplan-on-evolution-a-missing-chapter-of-the-handbook-of-jewish-thought/ I don't like the Schroederian take on Evolution, but, regardless, a major discovery. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:46:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in certain cases). So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:33:32 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon In-Reply-To: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> References: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191031023332.GE14724@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 09:11:18PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil > inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, > then how was it he ate of the tree? ... The Rambam (MN 1:1-2) says that until the sin, Adam and Chavah's challenge was to decide between truth and falsehood. And the snake provided the falsehood that they fell for. Potentially along the same lines, R' Dessler says that until the sin the yeitzer hara was externalized in the form of the nachash. The sin caused the internalization of desire. Which also depends on someone who only wants to do Hashem's Will falling for the arguments of the externalized yh"r. > In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also > called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, > because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the > question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply > the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash > able to speak and cause them to sin? First, I think the "ruach memalela" of Unqelus that Rashi is referring to is not the power to speak, but having an internal monolog. The ability to "hear" one's thoughts is a critical part of assessing what one's thinking and a necessary element of free will. Which would explain why Koko the gorilla's (et al) skill at learning sign language doesn't pose a question about kinds of soul. (And could be why they didn't *invent* language.) Pre-fruit, this world and the olam ha'emes hadn't yet split into two. (R Kook) So Adam could have encountered the snake in a non-physical way. The nachash might not even be the physical snake, but the satan who was riding him (is that the Zohar or only Ben Sira?), or the angel in charge of snakes. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:04:56 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:04:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 15 Av In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031020456.GA14724@aishdas.org> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 02:09:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: >> And further ... if a woman converts for marriage, and the >> marriage is assur, is there any way to say the conversion was >> valid? I mean, there are pretty loose definitions of qabbalas >> ol malkhus Shamayim compared to what a beis din would hope for. >> But converting for the sake of being able to do an issur??? > These are great questions, and their answers are far above my level. But > I'll say this: It is not at all unusual to come across a gemara that says, > "You're not allowed to convert in this manner, but if you did, then it is > valid." And some of those leniencies raise the exact question that RMB is > asking, because if the gerus was done is a forbidden manner, where is the > qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim? There is a significant break in the parallel you're proposing. Someone whose geirus was done wrongly but kosher bedi'eved was converted by a beis din who did something wrong. It doesn't necessarily disprove the geir's qabbalas ol mitzvos, because (1) they're relying on people who are comparatively subject matter experts, not acting on their own; and (2) they aren't necessarily converting for the sake of being able to sin. And if (3) it's about wondering about the convert's QOM vs ulterier motive (like the Rambam's discussion of Shimshon's and Shelomo haMelekh's wifes), the convert him/herself isn't wondering. Here, you have someone converting just for the purpose of sinning. It isn't about the conversion, where the ball or sin is in the beis din't court. (It doesn't involve any questions of the kashrus of the geirus being valid by circular or paradoxical reasoning -- the sin doesn't have the self-reference nature of being in the conversion itself.) > By the way, where did they find a Beis Din in Moav? Yes, that was a > rhetorical question, intended to point out that if Rus and Orpah did have a > valid conversion at the beginning of the story, the procedure must have > involved some pretty serious leniencies. Well, if two famous people went to where there was food, out of the whole Jewish and Israelish peoples, there must have been at least 3 others. That doesn't surprise me. > Hmmm... Actually, if Rus converted at the end of the story, that is pretty > problematic too, because even if there isn't any "conversion for the sake > of marriage" to worry about, the Beis Din is even more surprising. (Someone > *might* make a case that two brothers could be a Beis Din for gerus, but > when Naami and Rus were alone they didn't have any Jewish men around at Or again, anonymous and unmentioned bit players. Who said they were all alone on the road? Maybe the road was better traveled than that? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:13:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] guessing at history? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031021308.GB14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 08:16:45AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I recently heard a shiur where the presenter described the "bad > scholarship" of the Torah Tmimah when offering the "misread abbreviation" > explanation (e.g. v'hazmanim really means fill in the holiday name). I > thought it a bit unkind since ISTM the guessing about the historical > circumstances of practices is what poskim do all the time (e.g. why some > women have a minhag not doing mlacha on rosh chodesh) I noticed that his father also gets very creative. The difference is, the Arukh haShulchan's creative sevaros are always to try to figure out how halakhah as practiced could have emerged from the texts. The TT doesn't have that limitation. But saying he was wrong doesn't need to be a value judgment. For example, his theory that saying "Migdol" in (after?) bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov came from someone confusing "B"Sh" for "BeShemu'el B" with "BeShabbos" is provably wrong. The Avudraham refers to the custom, and yet predates the Christian publishing of Shemuel in two volumes. Does that make the TT morally wrong for trying his best? Or intellectually dishonest when he clearly warns you he is theorizing? It is not unlike rabbanim who make other historical guess in the fact that he too gueses. What is different is that most don't have as high of a miss rate. Which means that you should buy into these theories with a lot of caution and independent research. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:15:16 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> References: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> Message-ID: <20191031021516.GC14724@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 05:18:40PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky > country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never > existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for > farming became less important. Also, when people were eating al taharas qodesh and otherwise were keeping all those halakhos seriously, there was a stronger drive to keep as much of Eretz Yisrael tahor as possible. In addition to pragmatic reasons to save real estate. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself, http://www.aishdas.org/asp "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now, Author: Widen Your Tent at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:20:03 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031022003.GD14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:35:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the > deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh > (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community > norms...)] How can it be? It's not like the chiyuv for the amud is really a chiyuv. Even qaddish is minhag -- and he could say that without taking the amud. For example, they say that R' Yisrael Salanter held that giving the amud to the other aveil is a better zekhus for the niftar than taking it yourself. I think that the main reason why culture so emphasizes this one ritual for aveilus is because of the number of people for which a year of going to shul regularly is the start of taking minyan more seriously for the rest of their lives. So, if we find other ways to encourage shul attendance (Qaddish is still an issue), even that motive is addressed. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a http://www.aishdas.org/asp person is to remain asleep and untamed." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 30 22:02:59 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/19 7:46 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn?t find it) although I?m guessing it?s based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty ? at least in > certain cases). It is indeed based on that. > So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei > mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is > kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] Bread is different, because the gemara specifies bread, and yes, crumbs smaller than a kezayit are beteilim and may be thrown out. AIUI one may deliberately break up a large piece into pieces smaller than a kezayit in order to throw them out. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 31 08:49:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031154951.GA2681@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in > certain cases).... The AhS OC 180:4 says that the worry about crumbs had to do with the Roman shulchan, which was a small one-person thing. And if you permitted the staff to take the table out without gathering the crumbs, they would likely do so even with bigger-than-kezayis pieces. (He even mentions a discussion in the gemara that allows hiring an am ha'aretz as a shamah.) But we today don't take the table out when not eating. (Which is why we need a ke'ara to remove or cover and then restore, as appropriate, at the seder.) The AhS says the problem is that people who wash before bread will disgracefully treat the bread on the floor from previous meals. The MB s"q 10 records a chumerah of not throwing out crumbs that total a kezayis. And, in accordance with the AhS's description of the motive, warns you not to walk on any bread crumbs. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless http://www.aishdas.org/asp he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness. Author: Widen Your Tent Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From penkap at panix.com Tue Nov 5 08:26:36 2019 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: <9D1EF0D1-F323-470E-AC49-C21245FA8691@panix.com> ?Re the discussion about a particular parnassa segula having to do with the disposal of bread, I always thought the best such segula was to get a good education and/or learn a trade. Doesn?t always work, I know, but no segula always works. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:00 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechilla Message-ID: An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:58 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:26 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:42:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Al tochlu mimenu na Message-ID: On the Mesorah list, we are having a discussion about the word "na" (nun-aleph), which often seems to mean "now" or "please". It was also compared to some other synonyms. I interjected that "na" also appears in Shemos 12:9 with an entirely different meaning, "undercooked". R' Zev Sero showed how this meaning is *not* so different after all: > Al tochlu mimenu na means "as it is now", uncooked. > Think "bistro", or "fast food". The fastest food is raw. It is a common error to think that "na" means "raw" here. Rashi on the pasuk defines "na" as "She'eino tzalui kol tzorko - It's not roasted all it needs" Rashi requires the Korban Pesach to be fully roasted, and it seems that even Maachal Ben Drusa'i would count as "na". Similarly, Torah Temimah there (#73 and #81) says that one who eats a Korban Pesach raw ("chai" is his word) has *not* violated this pasuk. (But he did fail to eat it roasted as required.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:06 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") Message-ID: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? The underlying motif of washing hands is ritual purification, similar to immersion in a mikve. The rabbinical decree to wash hands before meals is based on the purification the Kohanim underwent before eating their teruma offerings. The Talmud, however, gives a rather odd rationale for "mayim acharonim", washing hands after the meal. The Sages explained that this washing removes the salt of Sodom, a dangerous salt that can blind the eyes. [Chulin 105b] What is this Sodomite salt? What does it have to do with purification? How does it blind the eyes? Rav Kook explained that to answer to these questions we must understand the basis for the immorality of Sodom. The people of Sodom were obsessed with fulfilling their physical desires. Their concentration on self-gratification led to selfish, egocentric behavior. They expended all of their efforts chasing after material pleasures. No energy was left for helping the stranger; no time remained for kindness towards others. Eating a meal obviously involves sensual pleasure. The rabbis feared that since we eat several times every day, the importance of spirituality that truly perfects man can be decreased. As a preventive measure, the Sages decreed that we wash our hands before eating. This ritual impresses upon us the imagery that we are like the Kohanim, eating "holy" bread baked from teruma. The physical meal we are about to partake now assumes a spiritual dimension. Despite this preparation, the act of eating may to some extent reduce our holiness. Therefore, washing after the meal comes to counteract this negative influence. We wash away the salt of Sodom, the residue of selfish preoccupation in sensual pleasures. This dangerous salt, which can blind our eyes to the needs of others, is rendered harmless through the purification of "mayim acharonim". [Ayn Aya I:21] Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there. Bonnie Raitt Physical strength can never permanently withstand the impact of spiritual force. F.D.R. From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Nov 11 05:06:41 2019 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: <008601d59890$dc8ba6f0$95a2f4d0$@touchlogic.com> From: "Rich, Joel" ...Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? Many years ago (after reading the section in R Dessler on dreams) I had the same question. At the time, I asked R Wolbe z'l how much time/effort I s put into interpreting my dreams. He told me that when he was younger, he had a reoccurring dream and he went to the Chazon Ish to ask its significance and what he should do. He told me that the CI told him that today we not on the madregah that Hashem sends us msgs thru our dreams, and that he should ignore it. Mordechai Cohen From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:57:24 2019 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:57:24 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechila In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)?' Isn't that the same question as why we have the aseres ymei teshuva after RH, not before? After all, the purpose of asking mechila is that we can't have mechila or kapara on mitzvos bein adam l'makom until we've had mechila from those we've trespassed against (with apologies to external liturgy). So the minhag haolam re mechila and the teshuva of aseres ymei teshuva are all part of the same process and issue. The question of why the order of of RH/AYT/YK is what it is has been asked and has a number of approaches. But your question seems just part of that bigger question. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Nov 12 06:00:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Being Sekptical About Skepticism Message-ID: <20191112140022.GA6783@aishdas.org> From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/when-atheists-stole-the-moral-high-ground/ > The Spectator > Nick Spencer > 9 November 2019 > When atheists stole the moral high ground ... > Most of us like to believe that we believe what we believe because > rigorous reasoning and reliable evidence have led us there. Most of us > are wrong. It isn't that reason and evidence play no role in our religion > or lack of it; rather that they are saturated with deeper emotional, > social and practical concerns. As Julian Barnes writes in The Sense of > an Ending: 'Most of us... make an instinctive decision, then build up an > infrastructure of reasoning to justify it.' Du Perron was no doubt very > devout. Today he may well have been devoutly sceptical. But in neither > case is he likely to have been led to his dis/belief through reason alone. > That the emotions matter is well established in the case of religious > belief, as Stephen T. Asma's fine recent study Why We Need Religion > explains. But it is less well recognised when it comes to unbelief, and > particularly the history of unbelief. Here we are still wedded to the > romantic fable of fearless sceptics hacking their way through obscurantist > bigotry, armed with nothing more than their trusty sword of reason. See epigram in signature. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:37:18 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha Message-ID: Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:39:28 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah Message-ID: The chavot yair (252) was asked by a talmid chacham (TC) about the following circumstances: The TC's cousin vowed to provide the TC with weekly wine for Kiddush. The TC would rather use his own wine as he doesn't want to have a freebie with which to do a mitzvah (see Samuel 2.24:24) He fears however it would be stealing to use the provided wine as the cousin would not have given it to him if he knew he wasn't using it for Kiddush. The chavot yair provides a detailed analysis of whether such a condition is truly binding [the whole less than 100% free and clear sale topic is an interesting one - is it not a sale if the condition isn't met or is there a separate obligation] What caught my eye however was his endorsement of the TC's preference to pay for his own kiddush even if the wine wasn't as good! It's not based on the passage from Samuel [I suspect since that case was a purchase from a non-ben brit) but rather because "tfei hiddur v'dikduk mitzvah havi im koneh ladavar mkiso dlo havi msitca d'chinam dmistra milta yesh lanu od rayah mhazohar" it's more of a beautification and scrupulousness in mitzvoth if he buys it himself so it's not free and even though this is clearly logical, we have a proof from the zohar.] My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). My meta guess would've been soneih matanot yichyeh (it's better not to take gifts) but that would require not taking the donated wine at all - which didn't seem up for grabs. Any thoughts other than behavioral economics? (we value our own things more) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:07:29 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") In-Reply-To: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> References: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191118190729.GA14270@aishdas.org> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 09:50:06AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg relayed the following piece from Gold from the Land of Israel, R' Chanan Morrison, adapted from Ein Eyah vol 1 pg. 21: > The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom > and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one > should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? But does it have anything directly to do with the city's evil or its destruction? One would be tempted to say yes, because Lot's wife *looked* back at the Cities of the Plains and was turned to salt. And the thread of melach sedomis is to ones eyesight, of all things. But this is a reference to getting an actual salt that they were using alongside normal table salt (sodium chloride) into one's eyes. There is no need to take this out of the realm of physical danger. Salt extrated from the flats in the area has far more adulteration with potassium chloride than anything we would consume today. (In fact, the modern town of Sedom was built specifically for potash [a mix of potassium compounds, mostly potassium carbonate] works.) So it makes sense in mundane terms -- potassium chloside is a moderate eye irritant, and sites also warn about abrasion in the eye as well. And in fact, to make malach sodomis more symbolic would complicate the Ashkenazi neglect of mayim achronim. We don't wash because the salt isn't used. If the salt were symbolic of Sedom and thus hand-washing more in the territory of impurity, we would need to prove that the lack of using the salt sufficiently weakens the symbolism to allow neglecting the ruling. (Back when RRW was on-list, I noted that the Ashk - Seph split on this backed up a theory he repeated here. According to Prof Agus, Ta Shma and others [not R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik], because many more Ashkneazim came ultimately from EY, rather than the more predominantly Bavli origins of Sepharadim, we can find a number of minhagei Ashk and liturgical elements sources in the Y-mi or Midrashei Halakhah even when against the Bavli. The Bavli gives two reasons for mayim achronim -- a comparison to watchin before the meal, and thus about taharah, and melach sedomis. The Y-mi only mneitons melach sedomis. Which would explain why Ashk feel free not to wash when no such salt is served, but Seph do not.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes http://www.aishdas.org/asp exactly the right measure of himself, and Author: Widen Your Tent holds a just balance between what he can - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:16:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118191623.GB14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:37:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the > period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) The Be'er Heitev says that for men it's only until one counts. Looks like the usual "don't do your own thing you might forget to do the mitzvah" taqanah (but in minhag form). The AhS (s' 9) "vegam `atah yeish nashim" who keep this minhag. But the minhag was ONLY accepted by women and ONLY until sefirah after maariv. What "after maariv" meant for single women in towns where there multiple times for maariv is beyond me. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:29:25 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118192925.GC14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:39:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in > the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the > better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure > additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). I can't answer your "in addition", but in general. One Shabbos haGadol derashah R Menachem Zupnik included the idea that it is better to use wine you bought for the four kosos than wine you got for free (for example, in "shalachmanos"). The idea is that this is actually the finer wine, regardless of the taste of the two wines. And therefore, Ashkenazim would choose white wine they bought over red wine they were given. Whereas Sepharadim prioritize color over taste preference, and therefore over this too. Perhaps it's an issue of "Adam rozeh beqav shelo mitish'ah qavim shel chaveiro." (R Kahana, BM 38a) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 19 15:40:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: <35B73FAF-B266-4A97-980D-07F0F8014233@sibson.com> If one (or a whole community)normally eats sliced apple as part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 04:55:11 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as > part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make > a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for ritual purposes. My understanding is that this is exactly why we are told to have the maror in mind when we say haadamah on the karpas. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Nov 20 13:31:40 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191120213140.GQ29112@aishdas.org> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:55:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > R' Joel Rich asked: >> If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as >> part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make >> a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? > You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a > non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for > ritual purposes. To rephased RAM's answer in the terms I was planning to use... (Just because to the way I think, I find the first sentence below a clear summary.) Whether or not a food it part of the meal has little to do with the kind of food, and more with why it is being eaten. Yes, there are rules of thumb. Like assuming fruit during the meal wasn't really as part of the meal - which RJR's example of waldorf salad violates. Just as RAM's (deleted) example of maror defies the norms for why we eat vegetables during the meal. And is a close parallel to the minhag of eating an apple as part of a siman milsa. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 21 08:43:28 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion Message-ID: Please see the article at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5213 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Interestingly, overnight peeled eggs might actually be permitted according to several authorities, as Rashi (ad loc. s.v. she?avar) when explaining the prohibition omits eggs from the criteria.Additionally, there is some debate among several later poskim about what type of peeled eggs are intended for inclusion in the prohibition - cooked eggs or raw eggs. ohr.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Nov 22 09:11:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] "Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me" (by R/Dr Hillel Goldberg) Message-ID: <20191122171120.GA24498@aishdas.org> R Hillel Goldberg wrote The Fire Within, which inspired me to explore Mussar. (And is long out of print.) Dr Hillel Goldberg's PhD thesis became the book, "Israel Salanter, text, structure, idea: the ethics and theology of an early psychologist of the unconscious". Since, RHG inhereted leadership of the Intermountain Jewish News, published in Denver. He once again inspire me week's opinion colum again inspired me, so I'm including it in full. If you like your arti https://www.ijn.com/yes-directly-moses-speaks-to-me/ :-)BBii! -Micha PS: I noticed that K'tav doesn't list that book title with what I think of as "title caps", and I see RHG didn't do so with the article's title either. If someone could explain the rules of these things to me, off list, I would appreciate it. Bcc: Dr Alan Morinis, R/Dr Hillel Goldberg (Since I didn't take the time to reach out to get permission to share their addresses. Assume I will forward them any replies.) Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me [Rabbi Dr] Hillel Goldberg Nov 21, 2019 Columns, Opinion, View from Denver More venerable than the Kaddish, older than the Haggadah, earlier than Chanukah and Purim. A sense of Jewish history connects a Jew to his roots. It can also cloud those roots. Here is what I mean. If we ask, why be Jewish, Jewish history is one answer. There are many variations on the answer, but each one draws a Jew back in time, fostering a feeling of identity with Judaism or the Jewish people. Even so, these answers rarely take us back far enough. Consider the following reasons for connecting to Jewish history: I want to keep my own family customs alive. I do not want the Holocaust to be the end of the Jewish people. I know my passion for social justice comes from Jews always being the underdog. I relish research into my own genealogy. The more I learn about my past, the more I feel connected to it and proud of it, whether I am an Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe or a Sephardi from Spain, Greece or Iraq. I get the chills when I see Israel reborn. I sit in a philosophy class and feel special pride when Maimonides is held up as a major philosopher. I study about Rabbi Akiva, Rashi and the mystics in Safed, and I know I am connected to an eternal people. In the long arc of Jewish history, all of these examples are relatively recent. They are kind of like touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and feeling connected to the American Revolution more than 240 years ago, but then thinking of standing before the Western Wall, some 2,000 years old. As in, 240 years, big deal! I do not mean to discount my feelings of awe and gratitude upon visiting Independence Hall. But compared to Jewish memory, 240 years is a blink. The thing is, we may say the same even for the 2,000 year-old Western Wall, the most powerful, emotional site in Judaism. My sense of Jewish history may cloud just how far back my roots actually stretch. Just as we may skip over the Holocaust and Maimonides and our personal genealogy to reach back so much further to the Western Wall, we may skip back further still. Take, for example, the one topic that occupies the entire, 2,711 folio-page Babylonian Talmud more than any other: "carrying," the prohibition of transferring objects from one domain to another, or of carrying objects within a public domain, on the Sabbath. For those who do not observe this prohibition, I appeal to your intellectual curiosity. Where did this come from? It originates neither with Maimonides nor in the Talmud. It is not from the ancient Holy Temples nor even from the Prophets of Israel (save one). We stretch back not to the Holocaust 75 years ago, not to Maimonides 800 years ago, not to the Western Wall 2,000 years ago, not even to the Prophet Isaiah, some 2,800 years ago. Our roots go all the way back to the first Prophet, Moses, in the Sinai desert after the Exodus. We recall the generation of the desert, of the liberated Hebrew slaves from Egypt, not just in a ritual (the seder), not just as Jewish history, and not just as abstractions ("the beginnings of the Jewish people" or "the inception of the Jewish-Divine covenantal relationship"). No, we recall Moses in the desert for something very specific that was done then and sustained throughout the generations, down to this very next Shabbos. When the Tabernacle was under construction in the desert, as G-d had commanded in the Book of Exodus, our ancestors volunteered the raw materials, the fibers, precious metals and animal skins out of which the Tabernacle was made. One fine day, on a Shabbos, Moses told the entire encampments of the Israelites: Bring no more! Why? Because on Shabbos one is not to transfer from one domain to another; specifically, from the private domain (the Israelites' homes, their tents) to the public domain, the Levite camp, where Moses was stationed and the Tabernacle was to be constructed (Shabbat 96b). Think of this. On the very next Shabbos that I welcome this year -- me, you, here, right now -- if I refrain from carrying an object out of my home, I am under the spiritual canopy of Moses himself, of my people at its very inception. I am a direct link to the Israelite sojourn in the Sinai desert and to one of the first Words embraced in practice after the revelation at Mount Sinai. I am not just connected to my roots. I am living them. Copyright (C) 2019 by the Intermountain Jewish News From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 06:35:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do beer and whiskey not require bishul Yisroel (Jewish involvement in the cooking)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha A. Bishul akum is prohibited when two conditions are met: a) the food cannot be eaten raw and b) the food is worthy of being ?oleh al shulchan melachim? (served at fancy dinners). Beer and whiskey are made from cooked grains, which are not edible in a raw state. Thus, beer and whiskey satisfy the first condition for bishul akum. Nonetheless, Tosfos (AZ 31b: s.v. V?traveihu) writes that beer is not served at fancy dinners and therefore the second requirement for bishul akum is not present. This explanation suffices for beer, but not for whisky, which is served at fancy dinners. However, Tosfos offers a second explanation why beer is exempt from bishul akum. Although beer is made from the five grains, the bracha is Shehakol and not Mezonos because beer is primarily a water-based drink. By the same token, beer does not acquire a status of bishul akum because it is primarily water. Since water is edible in a raw state, it does not require bishul Yisroel. The same rationale applies to whiskey which is a water-based drink, and as such, does not require bishul Yisroel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 15:15:56 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:15:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav Message-ID: RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did. When a friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush, the Rav began to yell at him saying that this is false. I believe this Rav thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes. However, RSRH, following the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. RSRH writes, "Yet, even if we were incapable of explaining the strange events in this story; even if we were forced to conclude as the Ramban concludes ? , 'Our father Avraham inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land, about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another sin he committed )' ? nevertheless, none of this would perplex us. The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: ?Here you have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!? It does not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust. Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: ?Look upon Me! Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!? We are never to say: ?This must be good and right, because so-and-so did it.? The Torah is not an ?anthology of good deeds.? It relates events not because they are necessarily worthy of emulation, but because they took place. Rav Hirsch's essay about the education of Yaakov and Esav may be read at Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII) There is much wisdom in this essay about education. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Nov 27 11:50:12 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:50:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a > friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav > began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav > thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following > the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to > say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From sholom at aishdas.org Thu Nov 28 06:37:50 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237da176174e2f7bc95386dc5c7b4289@aishdas.org> RZS wrote: > On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >> RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a >> friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav >> began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav >> thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following >> the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to >> say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. > > Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. And Ramban, too? And, if so, RYL made a mistake, too -- the same one that R Noson Slifkin made: "rishonim are allowed to say that, but we're not allowed to say that" ;-) Chodesh Tov, everyone. (And Hodu-Day) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 28 08:57:43 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? Message-ID: I recall being at an Agudah Convention many years ago and being served turkey on Thanksgiving Day! >From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6105 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] Thanksgiving: Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Biur HaGr?a (Yoreh Deah 178: end 7) and Gilyon Maharsha (ad loc. 1). The Gr?a is bothered by the fact that the sugya in Sanhedrin seems to imply differently than the views of the Maharik, Ran, and later, the Rema, that a Chok Goyim, even one that is not a Chok Avodah Zarah should still be prohibited. Others who ask this question and conclude tzarich iyun on the Maharik?s shittah include ... ohr.edu >From the article On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. See the above URL for much more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Nov 28 10:31:05 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a 'holiday' and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving's origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. ---------------------------------------- But they did celebrate Mother's day? Veteran's day? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 1 09:32:10 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeitzei Message-ID: <64993E05-F027-4F31-89BE-8D9D0DF924EF@cox.net> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked. Chapter 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it have to say "from his sleep?" Of course it was from his sleep. All it had to say was: "And Jacob awoke.? Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt...? Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and THEN "And he dreamt...?? So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke ?from his sleep? which is redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if that?s the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first time should just have said ?And Jacob awoke?? I propose the following possible answer: In the first instance, when he had the dream, it was really a prophetic vision and it wasn't an ordinary sleep, hence, the word sleep was omitted. However, after the dream, he slipped into a regular sleep, and therefore it says he "awoke from his sleep.? From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 1 12:04:35 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bananas are Herbs Message-ID: <20191201200432.GF19738@aishdas.org> This video explains the difference between woody plants (trees and shrubs) and herbaceous plants. Bananas are among the talles herbs. And just what is a bannana "tree"'s "trunk"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMfTkDZlFQ So, the scientific taxonomy and hilkhos berakhos agree on this one. A banana is not peri eitz. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 13:31:46 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202213146.GA29446@aishdas.org> Rav Dovid Lifshitz didn't personally eat turkey because of iffyness of saying it fits the requirement for a kosher species of bird to be backed by a mesorah. Not lekhakhah, but as a personal chumerah. And yet R Dovid celebrated Thanksgiving. (Which was a more common sentiment in the refugee generation.) But he did so with a goose dinner. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 23:35:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Thursday Night Chulent Permissible? Message-ID: <20191203073543.GA8739@aishdas.org> I would strongly dis-recommend chulent before Shabbos lunch. (Be glad I am not yours or anyone's poseiq.) Here is my argument against. The Shabbos daytime meal is supposed to be more important than Friday night's meal. One is supposed to save their favorite dishes for lunch. The gemara even mentions chamin as one such food that should be saved! So what is Thu or Fri night chulent? It is taking a food invented for the purpose of contributing to making Shabbos lunch the high point of the week's food and being too impatient to get one's treat to show proper kevod Shabbos. Rashi (Gittin 38b) says that people who make Fri night the greater meal should fear punishment! See also AhS OC 271:9, who finds what he calls a "limmud zekhus" for people who serve their most special foods Fri night -- many of them aren't as enjoyable the next morning. But he says this is why we have kugel and chulent, foods that can remain on the fire all night. After seeing what is said about not saving special food for Shabbos lunch, and chulent is designed to be that special food, and having it Friday night, al achas kamah vekamah serving it before Shabbos altogether! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From t613k at mail.aol.com Tue Dec 3 09:31:18 2019 From: t613k at mail.aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] R' Osher Katz -- Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna In-Reply-To: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130117873.1655613.1575394278828@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends and Family, I would not normally send out something so personal but my brother-in-law, R' Osher Katz, was diagnosed with cancer three months ago -- Stage 4 -- and he has not yet begun treatment, because, for complicated reasons, he has no insurance and very low income. There is treatment that offers hope of a complete remission but it is unbelievably expensive. We have tried reaching out to many Jewish and secular organizations, so far with little result. My daughter Naomi has created this campaign with The Chesed Fund to raise funds for him to begin treatment. This is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. Scholarly Rabbi Can't Afford Cancer Treatment | The Chesed Fund PS Many people give anonymously because it's a public site and they don't want their name up there, so I don't know who gives and who doesn't. If you can't afford to give don't worry, don't feel pressured but say a kapitel please for a refuah sheleimah for Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna. --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com From ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 5 11:55:02 2019 From: ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca (Ari Meir Brodsky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Tonight (Thursday evening) begin Prayer for Rain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my annual friendly reminder.... Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily prayers, beginning with Maariv tonight (Thursday evening), December 5, 2019, corresponding to the evening of 8 Kislev, 5780. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. [Sephardim replace the entire blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to Prof. Lasker for the reminder.] I encourage everyone to remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at that time. Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/veten-tal-u-matar/ (Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.) And it's been raining this evening here in Israel, thank God! Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka, -Ari Meir Brodsky --------------------- Ari M. Brodsky Teaching Fellow Department of Mathematics Bar-Ilan University Ramat-Gan 5290002 ISRAEL ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 8 07:15:44 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayishlach Brotherly Love Message-ID: <52DF2CD4-5DD1-44B6-AAEE-C16FB12F5232@cox.net> One of the most moving scenes in the entire Torah is when Esau and Jacob meet after 20 years. Chapter 33, verse 4, says: "Esau ran toward him, embraced him, fell upon his neck, and kissed him; then they wept." The Netziv points out that all the verbs in this verse are in the first person and refer to Esau. "He ran, he embraced him; hefell upon his neck, he kissed him and they cried." All the verbs are in the (third person) singular, except the last one: "theycried." Both Jacob and Esau cried?such human drama and emotion! They cried. That's the very factor that made their meeting a success. Without both feeling the emotion, neither could feel the emotion. The connection of brothers is a paradigm for the connection of nations. We need each other, and in order to laugh together, we first must cry together. The Netziv goes on to say the day will come when Esau will truly embrace his brother Jacob in honest unadulterated compassion, then both brothers will cry in happiness. May we live to see this day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 9 09:38:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Balancing Observance and the Interpersonal Message-ID: <20191209173824.GA32478@aishdas.org> By R' Eliezer Eisenberg Teaser: Havolim Thursday, December 05, 2019 Vayeitzei. Reconciling LeChaveiro with LaMakom Overview After Yaakov had a dream where he received nevuas Elokim that told him to leave Lavan, why did he seek Rachel and Leah's advice and consent about leaving? 1. Rav Gifter When your mitzva creates a burden for another person, you have to discuss it with him first. 2. The Shlah, Reb Moshe, and lhbchlch Rav Sternbuch Mitzvos should be done with the understanding that they are Hashem's gifts to us. It is wrong to do them because we have no choice, and consider them to be burdens and hardships that we have to endure. It is important to understand this ourselves, and to explain to everyone involved why the mitzva is so right and so good, in order that they should realize and appreciate that Hashem gave us the mitzva for our to'eles. 3. The Seforno per Reb Chaim Brown Yaakov wasn't asking whether to go. He assumed they would go, but was asking for advice about the best way to go - should he tell Lavan, or sneak away. 4. Abarbanel The Abarbanel says in 28:16, on the story of the Sulam, that Yaakov made the neder because he wasn't sure if his vision was a prophecy or just a dream. This was, he says, Yaakov's first experience with Nevu'ah, so, as was the case with Shmuel Hanavi, he was not sure what had happened. If so, perhaps we can say the same is true here, that Yaakov wasn't be 100% sure whether it was nevu'ah or just a dream. I don't like this approach. It was not the first time, and he certainly knew by then that it was Nevu'ah. 5. RDNJS and ENE, crystallized by a he'ara from Rav Moish Pollack. This event is a perfect example of [baderekh shehadam rotzeh leileikh molikhin oso]. It seems clear that that the tzivui of Hashem was catalyzed by Yaakov's personal choice, by Yaakov's decision to follow this particular path. That being the case, Yaakov was obligated to discuss it with the people whose entire lives were affected by his choice. I really like this explanation because of how well it fits the order of pesukim and shtims with the story of Miriam and Aharon against Moshe. Discussion ... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:45:46 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ??? ??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????: The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it) [X] THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:47:02 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:47:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered Message-ID: Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide goes out" N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. Me- it's all about the demographics G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her original drive A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with women's issues.) E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold! Me- troop levels seem dangerously low M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it? E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. Me- see comment above Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. Me- or maybe yes C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic tradition. Me- amen. As in "instant classic" Really now Israel defines our Judaism. Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this] R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. Me- I hope that's true H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. Me- Ger vtoshav? From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 11 12:37:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211203708.GE8671@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together. > [Tur YD 116] ... because it is "qasheh latzara'as". And I think the tzara'as connection is key. Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a spiritual element. > The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) > seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef > [BY OC 173] Pesachim 76b. Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the "davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as. > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since > this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition > got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo > refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it) https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38 Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M. So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam (Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From zev at sero.name Thu Dec 12 16:05:33 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 12 18:52:32 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 02:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> References: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> Message-ID: On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. ------------------------- I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Mon Dec 16 08:23:08 2019 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I agree with Joel, not so simple. A few thoughts: 1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we are not meant to follow. 2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat (which only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small fish bones, which could lead to choking. 3. Source: the actual Gemara states: Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig]. Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it bad for odor and davar acher." Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous, rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first - if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor? 4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen: https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/ While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides, this study finds that fattier meat produces more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/ 5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy (?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like condition. 6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger; therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be understood ? and taught ? as merely customary. Alexander Seinfeld >On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. >>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the >>prohibition got extended so far > >It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can >cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. >------------------------- >I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the >danger >Kt >Joel rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Dec 17 09:58:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:58:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival Message-ID: For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/ [https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish Holidays - ou.org Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ... www.ou.org This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/ YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Dec 17 14:19:31 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. He starts off with: Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept. Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to ?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal. While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*. Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to the next generation. American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog. He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Dec 18 00:52:11 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> References: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> Message-ID: He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom ______________________________________________ I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century) THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 19:03:39 2019 From: hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com (Harry Maryles) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. ... > He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO > intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr > L'Goyim. Here are my thoughts: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1 HM Sent from my iPhone, Shirley. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:27:57 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] thanksgiving Message-ID: My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back: 1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?) 2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it as such) KT from a dual citizen Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:29:26 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them out there? KT Joel Rich From acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 05:32:33 2019 From: acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com (Allen Gerstl) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud. As a part of Talmud, Science (Maasei Bereishit) and Metaphysical Philosophy (Maasei Merkavah) involves knowing the works of HKBH with the goal of doing so to become closer to Him through evoking what is ultimately deep love (Ahava) of HKBH and wanting to "partner" with him in also helping the world fulfill His will and achieving such closeness. Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have explained this many times in this treatise. God is near to all who call Him, if they call Him in truth, and turn to Him. He is found by every one who seeks Him, if he always goes towards Him, and never goes astray. ..." This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models in our history. Kol Tuv, Eliyahu Gerstl, Toronto, Canada From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 18 14:51:09 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:19:31PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > See > https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ and part 2: https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world-part-2/ I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. 1. To start with the banal... The "hedgehog" metaphor isn't just about finding your company's strength and running with it. It's also about prioritizing other things out. We use the term all the time at work. We're not writing our own low-latency networking layer because there are people who do that full time. Our hedgehog is trading systems; why waste time doing something ourside that bailiwick -- find the company for whom low latency networking is their hedgehog. So, to really use the idea here would mean to leave learning to the yeshivish, davening to chassidim, go out of kiruv since Chabad does it, and just focus on leOr Goyim. Let everyone do what they do best, and hire out the other jobs to those who do each of those jobs best. Yissachar and Zevulun, but on steroids. The idiom was misused. (Totally irrelevant; it just felt good to get that off my chest.) 2. Second, a movement is a group of people who gather around an Ism, not the other way around. You can't save Mod-O by giving them a different ideal, even one you feel is related to their current one. That's killing one movement by creating a new thing to attract its adherents. Nothing too terrible. After all, the only value in a movement is whether it generates fealty to Torah umitzvos, not as an end in itself. You can't just tell people "here's your new ideal now". (Which is basically the same as RJR's point.) That mod-O crowd would have to buy into this leOr Goyim Ism for themselves. You can't just propose it in a Lehrhaus article. Look how many decades of leadership it took RYBS to put his fingerprint on the Mod-O ideal, and even that was only in the realm of nuance about what "u" means, and what "mada" does. You expect to totally redirect the community without having a rabbi's rabbi at the helm? Then figure out how to fire up a grass roots movement. Because we are not talking about a "hedgehog", we are talking about what idea people should put front-and-center in their life's mission statement. The target here is diaspora Mod-O. This leOr Goyim wouldn't be attractive to somoene living in a Jewish State. Nor to someone who doesn't believe in a Torah-and hashkafah with its openness to participating in general society. But it's not Mod-O's current Ism in any way similar in emphasis or behavior. 3. As for Torah uMada... I wrote here a couple of times that I don't think it speaks well to the masses. First, because RYBS's vision of "mada" really only appeals to the academically inclined. Second, because his "u" is dialectical. Not too many people even know what a neo-Kantian means by dialectic. It's not a synthesis. It is not compartmentalization of two opposites. It's finding meaning in their interplay, without expecting to get to resolution. Can the masses do that with Torah uMadda? Or are the outcome inevitably going to be primarily a population of compromizers and a population of compartmentalizers? TuM thus has the rare problem that imperfect following of this ideal is actually worse than not chasing it at all. Because it gives motive to compromising one's fealty to Torah! TiDE doesn't have these problems, since DE has more to do with being a refined human being as defined by being cultured. High culture, not academic knowledge. And synthesis, not dialetic. The Tzitz Eliezer, in a festschrift for RSRH, described TiDE as a hylomorphism (a tzurah vachomer). That derekh eretz is the substance to which a person is supposed to give Torah's form. AND, TiDE includes much of what R Gil Perl writes about here. But without making it the front-and-center. The idea of Yaft Elokim leYefes veYishkon be'ohalei Sheim is not just that Sheim should benefit from Yefes's yofi, but that Sheim has the job of being the moral and spiritual voice in the partnership. But again, making that aspect of things the centerpiece of the movement would be something new. 4. In terms of defensibility... We are given the whole Torah project in order that we be a "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh". Hashem introduced maamad Har Sinai with those words. Arguably the Torah is to the Jews as the Jews are supposed to be to the world -- the means of obtaining Devar Hashem. But, aniyei irekha qodmin... How do you make a movement about bringing Hashem's values to non-Jews that doesn't invest more effort in doing the same to our fellow Jews? The dialectic (sorry!) between universalism and Jewish particularlism can't be thrown out the window. Although, Universalism is in now, Jewish particularism being too close to the lately much maligned ideal of nationalism. I am not saying the idea that the Torah can be viewed as a way to make us a priesthood caste to the rest of the world is false. I am just wondering if that way of viewing the Torah can possibly attract people well enough to build a new movement around. And in fact in much of part II, RGP himself spells out reasons why, for which his solutions fall flat to my ear. The Post-Modern era is not one in which the idea of spreading the message to others is going to win adherents. His answer is to sure to brand on LeOr Goyim instead of Or laGoyim, to inform rather than to preach. "My calling is not to convince you of their certitude, but to humbly offer you a glimpse of their beauty." But it is exactly the kind of subtlety that would get lost in the translation to a mass movement. One slides into the other and out of fitting with the times. 5. OTOH, what is exciting many Mod-O Jews today on a spiritual plane is what a famous Jewish Action article (somewhat incorrectly) labeled Neo-Chassidus. A worldview built on the Peiczeza and Nesivos Shalom, Tanya, Bilvavli and the Chalban. With the music of Carlebach and lots of epigrams by Rav Nachman. The opposite direction from reaching out.... Deveiqus. A Me-and-G-d way of viewing Judaism. We even have a similar problem in The Mussar Institute. (Whose audience are "spiritually seeking Jews", primarily from the non-O world.) People are getting so caught up in middah work, the reaching in, that I have a personal agenda to focus on the bein adam lachaveiro part of R Yisrael Salanter's message. Perfection in middos being their maximizing our ability to be givers (REED), to be nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chazkel), leheitiv im hazulas (R Shimon Shkop), etc... Selling an Other-Focused Judaism, even one with a universalist spin, may not be the world's easiest sell. Myself, I would push an Other-Focused Judaism too, but without the deemphasis of ahavas Yisrael in favor of ahavas haberios. And, for that matter, leheitiv im hazulas applies to physical chessed to my wife, family, friends and neighborhood well before the hatavah of teaching the world what the Torah has to offer. My spirituality starts with concern for my stomach and your soul. If only I knew how to make that message attractive in a world where products are made popular by putting the word "I" in front of their names. But that's where my own quest as moved since the days when this list began. Mussar is a good idea, and one I hadn't given up on. But it never was a mass movement, and likely something that requires that much work never could be. But could in theory be practiced by anyone is a Torah based on the idea that Hillel's saying that the whole Torah is "de'alakh sani, lechaverkho lo sa'avid" was means seriously, or that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is a kelal gadol even after you leave the poster behind when you leave the 2nd grade classroom. A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit. If only I knew how to fight those elements of the zeigeist. But then, I am not trying to rebuild an already existing movement. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:00 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cellphones on Shabbos Message-ID: There is currently a thread on Areivim titled "more than one quarter of MO youth admit to using their phones on Shabbos", in which R' Danny Schoemann commented: > And I'm sure on Avoda we've discussed why and how using a phone > is Chillul Shabbos. If not, then maybe we should. I can very easily understand people for whom the temptation is so great that they succumb occasionally or even often. But I don't think that's what you're asking. Are you suggesting that these kids honestly don't realize that using a cell phone on Shabbos is assur? It seems to me: Even the most basic listing of the 39 Melachos is more complicated than is needed for this discussion. A discussion of Kavod Shabbos would also be counterproductive. Just ask them: "You don't turn lights on and off, do you? What the difference between that and everything that lights up on the screen?" Or ask them: "You wouldn't write something with pen and paper, would you? How is texting any different?" I concede that if we wanted to, we could get involved with all sorts of lomdish chakiras to answer those questions. But none will make a nafka mina regarding mutar/assur. They are all d'Oraisa/d'Rabanan distinctions, distracting us from the main point, which is that there is no way to use a cellphone on Shabbos except for legitimate medical needs. Kol hamosif gore'a. Comments? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Dec 18 14:37:11 2019 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:37:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel Message-ID: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah related): "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23)? Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information about this?? I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers.? Joseph Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 15:29:25 2019 From: rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> R. Micha, Thank you for including me on this rich and thoughtful post. Here are my thoughts, responding to some of your points in the order that you made them. - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? Did Chabad always emphasise the outreach which has become their trademark activity? I also wonder if the comparison can be made with the other movements that Rabbi Perl mentioned. Chabad, religious Zionism, Torah Im Derech Eretz and the yeshivah movement were all started by ideological leaders with a particular agenda. Was this so of Modern Orthodoxy? I guess what I'm questioning is whether Modern Orthodoxy is based on some kind of founding ideal and agenda which would be transformed if we were to go the path Rabbi Perl is suggesting. - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development in the Modern Orthodox community. It remains to be seen how much can be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer to is instructive. - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate central concept for the community. - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work you have given to the cause over decades. But doesn't a life commitment to Talmud Torah take work? Doesn't the Chabad shlichus demand self-sacrifice for others? I'm sure there are ways to respond to this, making chilukim, etc. but I am not as inclined to rule out the broad acceptance of an approach to middot, chesed, nosei b'ol, etc in our communities. As you know, I'm working on a conference to set a process in motion. If you don't try, you won't know! Best, Anthony Check out The Rise Together Project at and my website at Rabbi Anthony Knopf From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:58:07 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191222185807.GA18920@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:03pm CST, R Harry Maryles pointed us to his blog post "Of Hedgehogs and Ideology" at written in response to R Gil Perl's two-part essay on The Lerhaus. Responding to RHM's blog post: ... > That said, I do not believe that Modern Orthodoxy should make being an > or LaGoyim its passion no matter how noble it is. In my view it should be > defined the way it is traditionally defined as adhering to the ideology > of Torah U'Madda (TuM). And skipping ahead to his close for a minute: > Does that leave Modern Orthodoxy bereft of the hedgehog concept? > Perhaps. But in my view using a Mitzvah that does not really define what > we are really about in order to excite passion in us will in my view - > not work. I thought of this while responding to a very different conversation on Facebook. Someone advocated a more meiqil approach to halakhah on the grounds that the way O is done is scaring people away. I made two objections: C was only one failed attempt at this approach -- it just doesn't work. People just don't bother conforming to the lower standard. The other objection ended with an on-topic one-liner: You can't save something by redefining it. But it matters less here. We don't really need to save Mod-O as much as maximizing the shemiras Torah umitzvos of people who affiliate Mod-O. So, assuming I thought people would stay with that affiliaiton even as the movement redefined itself, I wouldn't object. But personally, the resulting movement wouldn't be for me. As I see it, halakhah has me prioritize those closer to me ahead of those further -- so immediate family, friends, aniyei iri, etc... and much further down are non-Jews. The triage doesn't fit making providing Kol Yaaqov to the community dialog our highest priority. The other problem is that I already bought into Mussar's adage that "my ruchnius means concern for my soul and your stomach". (Something the pre-War chassidishe rebbe who was the rav of the shtielb of my childhood also regularly said.) When it comes to others, gashmi aid is a higher priority than moral education. Again, a different triage. > Rabbi Perl rejects that. He references R' Norman Lamm who - as he points > out - literally wrote the book on that subject. Rabbi Lamm says that > TuM is not an ideology but rather pedagogy - a means of `arriving at > knowledge of the Creator through the avenues of science and the arts'. > In my view, that is a distinction without a difference. Aren't all > Orthodox Jewish ideologies ultimately about that? YU-style Mod-O is indeed Mod Yeshivish. The RIETS morning is no less a child of Volozhin than Lakewood is. But it's not true that "all Orthodox Jewish ideologies" are about "arriving at knowledge of the Creator". The Rambam would go for that. But chassidishe deveiqus is about having a relationship with the Borei, not learning about him. Knowing G-d, rather than knowing *about* G-d. More on this in a reply REGerstl's email, which became its own thread about the Rambam's notion of life's purpose. ... > Not only that, but TuM need not be studied only by > the elite anymore than Torah should. We each do the best we can with > the capabilities God gave to us to do it. Perhaps if you stick with *should*, but what's the motivator for learning mada for the majority of MO Jews? It's not overtly one of the 613, and the person isn't academic by nature, what's driving that time investment into secular studies. And where in the entire span of secular studies are they to choose among if they don't have a personal drive to pick up academic knowledge? On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:29:25PM +0000, R Anthony Knopf replied to my post, writing: > - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their > point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? ... Evolve is different than reinvent. Theseus's Paradox is a thought experiment about the ship Theseus sailed in stories recorded by Plutarch. During the course of his travels, say a sail tore and was replaced. Is it the same ship? Maybe on the next trip, he replaced the mast. Let's say over the course of his lifetime, every single plank and board in that ship was replaced. Theseus would have had continuous use of a ship, at all times it sure seemed like the same ship, and yet there is nothing in it now that was in the original. Is it the same ship? Identity evolves differently than sudden redefinition. But this is a bit off coarse. We're getting more caught up in whether, if the Mod-O infrastructure and membership would largely go for a leOr Goyim ideology, if they would still be Mod-O or not. Which gets more into the definition of a movement than either issues of right or wrong or of feasibility. I really wanted to focus on feasibility. I don't think MO membership would feel they're on the same ship if this were attempted. And so, it wouldn't work. > - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus > article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. > And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a > powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development > in the Modern Orthodox community... I think the question of ultimate purpose is a critical one, regardless of who we're talking about. I recently ran a workshop to help people write life- > be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of > "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer > to is instructive. But it manages to do so without leaving Torah uMada. It seems the Brisker tenor of Mod-Yeshivish a la RYBS is a less deeply held emotional issue. The feeling that we're staying on the same core idea is still there. After all, my youth included some very neo-Chassidus like moments at NCSY kumzeitzin. > - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding > an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the > difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than > "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of > Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent > academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate > central concept for the community. I do to, but... > - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a > popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work > you have given to the cause over decades... > But doesn't a life > commitment to Talmud Torah take work? But then, the learning that has become most popular is daf yomi. You get a feeling of acocmplishment. It's like the difference between a second hand and an hour hand on a watch. The second hand is doing 3,600 times the work, but you can see it working. An hour hand.... Working on middos is slow. There is no "I finished my first mesechta" or "500 blatt" or whatever. You work and you work, and eventually you notice the hour hand is pointing to a new hour when your wife says something about how you've been with the kids lately. And even that is months or years away from then you started. Well, now that I have split my dream into two, I can more easily articulate it. I hope. A central idea for AishDas is to plant the seed of "a vaad in every shul", paralleling the spread of daf Yomi. We had other ideas that we would "get to later", but really the only project we ever invested effort in was the spread of ve'adim. My dream was not that you would have a whole movement of people actively working on their middos. Halevai you could, but as you just noticed, I don't think the masses are ready for years and years of work before seeing signficant results. Character change is slow. Rather, I thought that the existence of those 5-6 people in the va'ad would have secondary effects on the rest of the shul. All the value we're supposed to be giving ehrlachkeit would stay in the discussion. We would be able to see a Yahadus in which how you act on line for the bus is no less a defining feature of who is "one of us" as is what a person eats. More recently, really since I was waiting for the editing of my sefer, I started trying to put another buzzword out there -- Other-Focused Orthodoxy. Because there has to be exploration on how to get to an ehrlachkeit-centered rather than frummkeit-centered observance through ways other than hoping the kind of people AishDas was reaching to would have cultural influence on the kelal. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:19:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] The Rambam's Hedgehog (was: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191222181924.GA22988@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:32pm GMT, R Eliyahu Gerstl responded to RGP's thesis: > I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's > concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct > to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be > considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. > The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch > davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: > Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud... I don't see two points here in the Rambam, Yesodei haTorah 2:1-3 and Hil' Talmud Torah 1:11. In YhT the Rambam defines ahavas H' and yir'as Hashem in terms of a thirst to know about G-d. Because, as I wrote above (in response to RHM), it seems to me the Rambam defines his "deveiqus" (as REG puts it) as an intellectual unity. "What is the way to love Him and feel yir'ah for Him? When a person contemplates His Actions and His Creations, which are nifla'im gedolim, and sees His Chokhmah in it... immediately he love, praises, glorifies, and mis'aveh ta'avah gedolah ot know the sheim hagadol..." First, in TT 1:11, the shelish betalmud is halachic dialectic -- "... until he knows what are the iqar of the midos [shehaTorah nideshes bahen] and how to extract what is assur and what is mussar, andthe like, from what he studied from the oral tradition." Not aggadita. We do find aggadita included with Mada in YhT 2:2 as the means to ahavas veyir'as Hashem. Different mitzvos than TT. To skip to the end of this post too because I want to respond to it together with the above: > This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing > on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of > HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by > a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models > in our history. What neo-Chassidus shows is that the Mod-O Jew is looking for some experiential / emotional Judaism. But in any case, I don't think the Rambam's parallel to deveiqus is a major element in today's hashkafic discourse. Too cerebral, too much aimed only at the academic. I also amnot sure the Rambam's hashkafah was particularly popular among Chazal either. > Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 To me, the core thought of this last pereq of the Moreh is his ranking of the 4 types of perfection the gemara expects of a navi -- wealth, health, intellect and middos. The Rambam flips the last two, not only in the order he presents them, but the Rambam is clear that these are asvending types of perfection. That only intellectual perfection is a permanent refinement of the most core part of the self: The fourth kind of perfection is the true perfection of man: the possession of the highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards God. With this perfection man has obtained his final object; it gives him true human perfection; it remains to him alone; it gives him immortality, and on its account he is called man. Examine the first three kinds of perfection, you will find that, if you possess them, they are not your property, but the property of others; according to the ordinary view, however, they belong to you and to others. But the last kind of perfection is exclusively yours... And as REG also quoted: > ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by > him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the > knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the > manner in which it influences His creatures in their production > and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will > then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, > and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have > explained this many times in this treatise. Really, more so than middos and character? And so I thought for decades, until I saw RYBS said differently. Not that I understand how RYBS reaches that concludion, given how much of pereq 54. And the opening chapters of the Moreh about how the eitz hadaas messed up the pursuit of knowledge by introducing precondition steps; the definition of nevu'ah as an overflow from the Active Intellect; 3:18 where he defines a homo sapien's personhood in proportion to their knowledge, so that a person receives hashgachah peratis is proportional to yedi'ah; and 3:51 and the castle garden metaphor at the start of the Moreh's closing section. Really, it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the Moreh Nevuchim. BUT RYBS understands this section of 3:54 as saying that even yedi'ah isn't the end of the human endevor, chesed, mishpat and tzedaqah are. Looking at pereq 53: This chapter encomapsses the meanig of three sheimos that needs explaining: chesed, mitzpat, and tzedaqah. And so on, until: We have shown that "chesed" refers to gemilus chesed gamur, and "tzedaqah" to any good that one does because of the loftiness of middos, to thereby complete one's nefesh, and "mishpat" sometimes has an outcome of neqamah, and sometimes tov. We already epxlained how distant attributes are [from theology][ that any attribute one attributes to the Deity yisbarakh in the books of nevi'im is an attribute of action. ... And then the Rambam returns to this idea later in 54. The navi does not content himself with explaining that the knowledge of G-d is the highest kind of perfection; for if this only had been his intention, he would have said, ... He says, however, that man can only gain praise for himself in the knowledge of G-d and in the knowledge of His "Ways and Attributes", which are His actions, as we have shown (MN 1:54) in expounding the passage, "har'eini na es Kevodekha" (Exod. 38:13). We are thus told in this passage that the Divine acts which ought to be known, and ought to serve as a guide for our actions, are, ch??es, mishpat, antzedaqah." Another very important lesson is taught by the additional phrase, "ba'aretz." It implies a fundamental principle of the Torah; it rejects the theory of those who boldly assert that God's providence does not extend below the sphere of the moon, and that the earth with its contents is abandoned, that "azav H' es ha'aretz" (Yechezqeil 8:12). It teaches, as has been taught by the greatest of all wise men in the words, "Lashem ha'atez umloa'ah" (Shemos 9:29), that His providence extends to the earth in accordance with its nature, in the same manner as it controls the heavens in accordance with their nature.... And so on. So far, all about knowledge of HQBH. Even chesed, tzedaqah umishpat are about knowing *Hashem's* HZu"M, and that there is hashgachah in this world. And then, this: The navi thus, in conclusion, says, "ki ba'eileh chafatzti, ne'um H'" i.e., My object [in saying this] is that you shall practise HZu"M the earth. In a similar manner we have shown (MN 1:54) that the object of the enumeration of H's 13 Middos is the lesson that we should acquire similar attributes and act accordingly. The object of the above passage is therefore to declare, that the perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired -- as far as this is possible for man -- the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek HZu"M, and thus to imitate the ways of G-d. We have explained this many times in this treatise. So, the purpose of all this knowledge is to know what to emulate. And yet the perfection of the knowledge is a greater perfection than the perfection of the middos one acquired by emulation? What am I missing? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 16:11:11 2019 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: In Avodah v37n97, one of R'Micha's last thoughts was > A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit < which brings us back to TiDE and RSRH's Mensch Yisrael. --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 03:18:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > What percentage of people would like to know how they are > really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self- > image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not > telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them > out there? Personally, I would love to know about the things I do that are viewed negatively by others. If I had that information, I could either correct my actions, or I could explain myself to them and thereby improve their views of me, and possibly even improve how *they* act. However, as much as I would like that, I generally do not tell others when I view them negatively. To do so successfully requires a great deal of tact and sensitivity, and experience has shown me that I usually fail when I attempt these things. I believe that this approach is supported by the halachos of Tochacha: attempt to correct people, but first, do no harm. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 24 23:14:21 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 07:14:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv Message-ID: From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, it should be done by example. My response: Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner consistent with the will of HKB"H. If the result is we are mekarev them (as imho it would be if we act this way), great BUT that is not our ultimate goal (much as we don't do mitzvot for reward, it's an ancillary benefit) Your thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Dec 26 09:42:22 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=96_A_Torah_View?= Message-ID: https://rabbiefremgoldberg.org/audio_listing/celebrating-birthdays-a-torah-view/ I think that many will be surprised by this talk. There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 26 20:05:48 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 04:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=E2=80=93_A_Torah_View?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F184740-02E5-426B-85CE-342B8AA10C63@sibson.com> There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL ______________________________________________ I gave a shiur on this a number of years back. My main take away was it should be used as an opportunity for reflection, Not A celebration per se Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 20:07:55 2019 From: jmeisner at gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:07:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel In-Reply-To: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:36 AM Joseph Kaplan via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel > in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in > Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah > related): > > "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah > scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival > in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who > were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, > etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23< > https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/babylonian_exile/>)? > > Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: > > ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any > assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely > the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during > this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the > assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information > about this?? > > I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about > is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows > what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article > and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical > sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher > butchers.? > I assume that the author was taking creative license based on Sanhedrin 38a, which states more generally that the galus of Tzidkiyahu was pushed earlier so that they would arrive while the charash and the masger of the galus of Yechonya were still alive. To address RDYL's question, what would such help have looked like? A brigade of soldiers (or elephants)? A steady stream of volunteers? Massive infusions of gold that could be used to buy modern weaponry on the black market? Considering the distance between Bavel and Eretz Yisroel and the difficulty in traveling between one and the other, this question may have a very modern bias to it. I was going to suggest that the king of Persia may have further objected to any of this assistance leaving his territory, but, according to Wikipedia, the Parthians did not conquer Bavel until shortly after the neis of Chanukah, prior to which it was until the control of the... Seleucids. Hence, the Seleucid governor of Bavel certainly would not have approved of any aid being provided to the rebellion in Eretz Yisroel. Did the decrees against Torah in Eretz Yisroel also apply in Bavel? I've never heard this discussed. More generally, it seems that we (or maybe just I?) know little about the Jews of Bavel during the time period in question. Ezra (and perhaps Zerubavel) left there a couple of centuries earlier, while Nechemya left from and Mordechai and Esther were in Paras. There are a handful of tanna'im called Bavli'im, but the center of the chachmei hamishnah was clearly in Eretz Yisroel. While it's conceivable (although perhaps not likely) that there were direct lines from the yeshivos of the charash and masgeir to the yeshivos of Rav and Shmuel, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was strong religious leadership the whole time that would have coordinated such an assistance drive for the Chashmona'im. Just a few thoughts. A lichtige Chanukah (What's the origin of this phrase, by the way?), Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Mon Dec 30 05:19:42 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Anti-Semitism is Out of Control Message-ID: <7172577B-31F7-4CA0-B25C-35C37FB57BFF@cox.net> It is imperative to address the rampant anti-Semitism which is on the rise exponentially. Please watch the following (under) 10 minute television interview of former NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind. It is time we realize that the laws of the ?rodef? definitely apply to the anti-Semite. https://www.foxnews.com/media/dov-hikind-hanukkah-stabbing-new-york-anti-semitism From micha at aishdas.org Tue Dec 31 22:03:37 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 01:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro Message-ID: <588c3f15-5b25-452b-9857-ca858cb7cd12@Michas-iPad> CC: RRYE So, RRYEisenman's recent Short Vort has been making the rounds. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1815470 (Carried as OpEd pieces in both The Yeshiva World and Matzav.) RRYW writes: Op-Ed: Important "Checklist" Of Things To "Bring" To The Siyum Hashas December 31, 2019 11:00 am As the horrifying events of Monsey are still so fresh in our minds, coupled with other over manifestations of anti-Semitism in the New York area, it behooves all of us to rethink our preparations for the great convocation of Jews on Wednesday in Met-Life Stadium. ... Keep in mind that this event is a momentous one for Kavod HaTorah and for Kavod Shomayim. The last-minute items to remember to pack: 1. SMILE a. Most important: remember to bring your best smile with you. ... e. Keep in mind that all of the workers, security people, police, maintenance people, cleaning staff, parking attendants and anyone else working are human beings. f. These are the same human beings who our Sages say about them, "Beloved are human beings, for they was created in the image of Hashem...as it says, "For in the image of G-d, He made human beings". (Genesis 9:6) g. You must smile when you see someone created in the image of Hashem. h. Can you think of any other greater irony than for 100,000 plus people who are the children of Hashem who have come to give honor to Hashem, not recognizing those who are also created in His image? i. Smile, smile and smile more at each and every person you meet. 2. Happy New Year! a. These people are all working on what is to them one of the most important and universally observed holidays: the day which is called New Years Day. b. It is totally irrelevant that these people are also getting paid ... 3. Thank You a. This might be the most important item to remember to bring. ... Most importantly, we have the opportunity to bring Kavod and honor to His Holy name. Note his repeated appeal to bein adam laMaqom (BALM) terms. Smile at a person because he is a tzelem E-lokim and it is part of giving honor to HQBH. Or qiddush hasheim / avoid chillul hasheim. And this theme came up more in discussions of this OpEd on social media. But I have an open question about this strategy that I have been chewing on for years. Maybe people here have opinions. We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom. And so, in the short run, it makes sense to sell bein adam lachaveiro by emphasizing the BALM aspects of it -- respecting Hashem by respecting a tzelem E-lokim, and chillul vs. qiddush hasheim. But... I am not sure if I like the message or not. Isn't the road out of this whole mess a realization that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is the more central principle of the Torah? If we reinforce the idea that it is only "really" against the Torah is it interferes with my relating to the Creator, will we be in the same boat a generation from now? Are we getting people to do the right thing, and atttidue will follow any behaviors we can encourage? Can we create the right habit this way? Or are we reinvorcing the imbalanced attitude, and we'll never get out of this "frumkeit" hole? I have picked up the conundrum repeatedly since starting on my book. I don't have an answer, though. Your thoughts? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and http://www.aishdas.org/asp this was a great wonder. But it is much more Author: Widen Your Tent wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "mensch"! -Rav Yisrael Salanter From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 1 18:49:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Av Message-ID: A thought for Tu B'AV: R'SBG (taanit 30b) designates the two most yamim tovim (holidays) Yom Kippur and Tu B'av. While the gemara lists a number of events which occurred on Tu B'av, I've always been partial to Yom Tvar Hamaagal (the day they stopped cutting wood for the wood pile). Initially I favored it as a paradigm for priority juggling (going back to Torah learning when your job is done), but it occurred to me that the pairing with Yom Kippur is exquisite - Yom Kippur being representative of the short spurt/high profile avodat Hashem while Tu B'av represents the ongoing low profile diligent avodah of daily life. We need both! GCT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Oct 2 09:44:52 2019 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:44:52 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Oct 1, 2019 05:57:56 pm Message-ID: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a few weeks. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 2 15:57:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20191002225720.GA3766@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 04:44:52PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: >> In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a > few weeks. I know Rashi says it's like "beshegam" with a segol, and then explains it as "bishvil shegam". And maybe the Torah contracts "asher" only when sandwitched after a be-? It would explain the uniqueness. But I find Ibn Ezra's comparison to the shin in shekhakha (in "ashrei ha'am shekakha lo") more compelling, and the Ramban did too. The Netziv has the shin as part of the shoresh, as in "mishagmaso". Etc... As RJFS writes, it's "one *possible* exception". GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder] http://www.aishdas.org/asp isn't complete with being careful in the laws Author: Widen Your Tent of Passover. One must also be very careful in - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF the laws of business. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 2 22:13:18 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut Message-ID: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. [PS: I'm not sure whether this belongs on Avodah or Areivim] -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 3 11:37:39 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 > We know that Pas Paltur, "Baker's Bread," is actually permitted year > round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all > one's bread products are strictly Pas Yisrael. But what do these terms > mean? And why should we be stringent with this, of all halachos, and > why specifically now? And what about Shabbos? > Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter > of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily > available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and > the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot > purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress > that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. See the above URL for more. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 3 16:50:05 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003235005.GA11274@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 06:37:39PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 >> Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter >> of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily >> available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and >> the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot >> purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress >> that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. So that while the Yerushalmi's case of eating chullin betaharah is more bein adam lamaqom... When it comes to pas palter during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah, are saying that for AYT we make a point of supporting other Jews, even if our bread may be a little pricier or not as tasty as the rest of the year. More a bein adam lachaveiro practice. GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger Mussar is like oil put in water, http://www.aishdas.org/asp eventually it will rise to the top. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yisrael Salanter - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:27:05 2019 From: simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:27:05 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut In-Reply-To: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> References: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:54 PM Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: > https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 > > It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The > author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and > the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. Powerful indeed, one of the high points of the RH liturgy. By the way, the London S&P mahzor and the Keter Shem Tov, both attribute it to R. Yehuda Halevi. From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:47:59 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice Message-ID: Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the current practice? GT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:51:42 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes Message-ID: Excerpt Recent correspondence: > Sholom u'vracha, > I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It > strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly > fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two > different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av > practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other > seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts. > How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz" [ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb] I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather 1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion) GT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 07:23:52 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population Message-ID: <20191010142352.GA31063@aishdas.org> One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers. This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as "clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os. Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole 6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the time the Kenaanim get to the scene.... See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel or numberous other links. They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 10 09:48:15 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 11:48:15 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these > activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? > A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom > Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical > instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies. Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments if they break while playing. It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another to continue these peripheral extensions. > On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived > the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen > Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason > presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing > and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning > a musical instrument. And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah. Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e. that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording. How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres, or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres. That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites "acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah would be equally exempt. And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments themselves. The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the first place. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: >That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod >haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites >"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a >waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah >would be equally exempt. ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3 and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY. For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 12:58:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted... ... > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the 9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians. Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3. There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to be about until at least 400 years after Chazal. In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah. Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique nighttime reading. Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat. It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside from it being minag, not din, anyway.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:59:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: > > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. > >But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of >minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is D'Rabbonon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 13:18:53 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > D'Rabbonon. Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level because of the act, not because of the date. Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 13:41:35 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22.7A.01711.4D99F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:18 PM 10/10/2019, you wrote: >Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? If I were in EY on SA I would not dance. (Truth of the matter is that I do not dance on ST anymore, given my broken Patella.) It does seem strange to me to have Yizkor and dancing on the same day. If you read Ya'ari's sefer you will see that the ARI danced on Motzoei SA and not on SA itself. He did not dance on SA itself in EY. However, in a sefer that describes him dancing it says mistakenly that he danced and encouraged others to do the same on the night of SA. This is not true. I note that in EY there are big celebrations on the night after SA with music to accompany the dancing with the Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Oct 10 14:18:40 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> On 10/10/19 4:47 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice > changed from allowing the body to decay and then ?burying? the bones, to > the current practice? > GT As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for farming became less important. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 06:21:52 2019 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > > D'Rabbonon. > > Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? > I believe that doing so would be a great Tikkun. The heter "lichvod haTorah" doesn't convince me at all: all the dancing and singing and drinking and shmoozing *while the Torah is being read* seem to me the opposite of kavod. Ditto the practice of calling up everybody in the shul, which is not even a halachic requirement. I only wish I could find a minyan that agrees with me on these points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Oct 13 06:03:10 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> Message-ID: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Sun Oct 13 07:21:13 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] suffering/inui Message-ID: I'm looking into whether increased inui/suffering is ever something to seek (or at least not avoid). Besides yom kippur and other fasts are there other possible applications? I've heard some say childbirth -any sources? Any others? Gt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandels at ou.org Sun Oct 13 07:01:43 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail>, Message-ID: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. --- Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On October 13, 2019 at 9:03:19 AM EDT, Prof. L. Levine wrote: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. Legal Disclaimer The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:38:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions: 1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods? Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum? 2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter? Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to be a staple also? Why be lenient? I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur. << Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of thought. >> If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as a snack, and not as a meal. In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas Palter. So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to consider PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:38:38 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mimetics Message-ID: https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/ > "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted > great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on > Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of > legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt > an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this > persuasion conduct herself?" Optimal? Mimetics be darned! Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:35:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? Message-ID: Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community norms...)] Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From chidekel at mail.gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:50:54 2019 From: chidekel at mail.gmail.com (Meir Shinnar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret Message-ID: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Seth Mandel > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers > (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent > of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were > known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. Meir Shinnar From mandels at ou.org Wed Oct 16 14:15:42 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:15:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it. From: Meir Shinnar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM > It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik > ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just > some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret > (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, > even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures > I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l > said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken, and he was much more than a "fellow traveler." But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases lahalokho. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel Rabbinic Coordinator The Orthodox Union Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels at ou.org From hanktopas at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:42:41 2019 From: hanktopas at gmail.com (Henry Topas) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: Mo'ed Tov: I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this structure has been instituted? Is it different in nuschaot other than Ashkenaz? Shkoyech and a Git'n Kvitel, HT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:00:21 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:15:42PM +0000, Mandel, R/Dr Seth responded to R/Dr Meir Shinar: >> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l >> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. > As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great > talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that > he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that > are against established halokho... Not my experience at all. He does work hard to find justifications for things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, not the practices of Chassidim. On the subject of Litvaks who considered the AhS one of their own: Add the early RMF, who wrote in vol 1 that the AhS was poseiq acharon, only to switch to saying so of the MB in a later volume. (My guess is that when R Moshe saw that lemaaseh the MB was being followed over the Ahs in nearly all quarters, he stopped holding out.) Also, R' Dovid Lifshitz and R' S Yaakov Weinberg both told their talmidim to turn to the AhS. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but by rubbing one stone against another, Author: Widen Your Tent sparks of fire emerge. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:14:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> Message-ID: <20191017211443.GA16981@aishdas.org> On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 02:01:43PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote: > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers ... True. But the Minchas Elazar's validation of the practice is so cute I just need to share it. (It's been a few years since the last time.) The gemara writes (47a): meisiv ha yasvei, berukhi lo mevorkhei Rav Huna bar Bizna and all the gedolei hador "sitting they would sit, but the berakhah they didn't bless". The Muncaczer wonder about the double language. Why wouldn't the gemara just say "ha yasvei velo mvorkhei"? So he suggests that the gemara is to be read as bitmiya: "Do you think sitting they would sit when the berakhah they couldn't bless?!" As I said, cute. Totally unconvincing to this Litvak, but I admit the creativity. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From zev at sero.name Fri Oct 18 07:41:57 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:41:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c715c42-4f5f-8013-d89a-fd77762fcb25@sero.name> On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Davening isn't structured with kaddish opportunities in mind. On the contrary, kaddish is an afterthought, tacked on to the bits before and after the main event. Since on Yom Kippur we (at least in principle) go right through the day there's no need to conclude each tefilla with ketoret and/or Aleinu, and thus no opportunity for kaddish afterwards. I davened at a Sefaradi minyan, where things were different. First, after musaf there was Ketoret/Ledavid Mizmor/Ledavid Ori, followed by a kaddish (though surprisingly it was not Al Yisrael), and then Alenu followed by chatzi kaddish. After mincha there was a perek of tehilim and alenu, each followed by kaddish. There was nothing after ne'ilah, but there was a kaddish after each of the sifrei torah in the morning. In addition, as is my custom, I learned Kelim 24 and Mikvaot 7 before musaf and again before mincha and concluded them after those tefilot, with Kadish Al Yisrael. I seem to recall there was also something learned during the 40-minute break before mincha, followed by kaddish Al Yisrael, but my memory is a bit hazy. (I do remember that mishnayot Yoma was learned after maariv, followed by kaddish.) If you had been at an L shul, your kaddish opportunities would have been as follows: After musaf there would be tehillim and mishnayos; after mincha there would be Ledavid Ori; and after neilah there would be Ketores, tehillim, and mishnayos; each followed by kaddish, plus one on the first sefer torah in the morning. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mandels at ou.org Fri Oct 18 08:13:10 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> , <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> Message-ID: From: Micha Berger Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:00 PM > Not my experience at all. [AhS] does work hard to find justifications for > things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me > tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos > do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, > not the practices of Chassidim. He works hard to find bases for minhogim of many groups. His defense of the chasidic customs that violate halokho, however seems to notable, because he does it for all of the three or four cases that are directly against all the poskim. I am not enough of an expert to evaluate whether it is egregiously different than his defense of other minhogim. But it is fairly well known that he became a great admirer of the Tzemach Tzedek after he first met him. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel From micha at aishdas.org Sat Oct 19 18:57:01 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Barukh Dayan haEmes - Rabbanit Shoshana Boublil In-Reply-To: <10375da9-e283-47e9-ae6d-25316c491142@Michas-iPad> Message-ID: <39cbf7cd-2d3e-48d7-b363-268c0ac5baf2@Michas-iPad> I regret having to share the news that Rt Shoshana Boublil has lost her battle against cancer. The levayah will be tomorrow at 12:30 Bet Olamin haYarqon, Shaar Ge?ulah Her family will be sitting shiv?ah at her home. The address was sent to Areivim. I would say more, but I have no idea how the laws of hespedim on ch?m apply to this situation. -Micha > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isaac at balb.in Sun Oct 20 00:33:15 2019 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini At erect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7F7B49-E256-4064-B391-46540CA77860@balb.in> From: "Mandel, Seth" One must also bear in mind that apart from his friendship and esteem for the Tzemach Tzedek (Agav, The Beis HaLevi also sent Shaylos to the Tzemach Tzedek) one needs to remember that he was Rav in a town populated by Lubavitcher Chassidim as I noted here https://pitputim.me/2016/11/14/what-should-we-be-doing-during-the-lifting-of-the-torah-part-4/ In respect of Hagba and how that is done. _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik Z"L From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:28:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Time for dinner on Shmini Atzeres Message-ID: Regarding the late afternoon of Hoshana Raba in Chutz Laaretz, Mishneh Brura 668:7 writes: <<< The Acharonim conclude that one should not eat in the evening until dark. However, b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi, he should *not* say Leshev Basukkah, because he already accepted Shmini Atzeres in davening and in kiddush. >>> >From this, it seems that the MB has no problem beginning Shmini Atzeres early, with davening and/or kiddush, his only problem is with eating. He explains this more deeply in Shaar Hatziuy 668:12: <<< The reason is because it is still part of the seventh day, and he is obligated by the Torah to eat in the sukkah. How can he eat without daying Leshev Basukkah?!?!? But to say Leshev Basukkah is not possible, because it would be a contradiction, because in davening and kiddush, he declared it to be Shmini Atzeres! >>> Writing in chutz laaretz, the MB clearly presumes that this person *is* in the sukkah, and the only problem is the bracha. I don't understand why the bracha is such a big deal. What's wrong with simply omitting the Layshev? Let's phrase it this way: This person has two choices: (A) At this time, during which there might be a Torah obligation to eat in the sukkah, he can eat in the sukkah without the Birkas Hamitzvah. (B) Because of the uncertainty about saying the bracha, he should avoid eating in the sukkah entirely, until this uncertain time ends. - It seems clear to me that it would be far preferable to choose A and thereby possibly do a mitzvah d'Oraisa albeit without a bracha, rather than just sit around squandering that opportunity. Why am I wrong? What did I miss? (By the way, please note the MB's words "b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi". I am curious what he would advise for a person who said Kiddush and washed Netilas Yadayim, but did NOT say Hamotzi yet. Shaar Hatziyun 668:13 (near end) is lenient for the last quarter-hour before dark, but what if it were earlier? Would he really tell a person not to eat yet?) None of the above would apply in Eretz Yisrael, where there are real problems with eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, even without a bracha. Similarly, in Eretz Yisrael it's not possible to eat in the house until dark, because of the safek chiyuv d'Oraisa. But my next question, I think, is equally valid in Israel and Chu"l: Suppose it is raining on Hoshana Raba afternoon - wither in Eretz Yisrael or not - and the rain is expected to continue into the night, and he is therefore planning to eat indoors. Is there any reason to delay dinner? The MB has no problem with davening or kiddush early, and there is no question of saying Leshev. So why not? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Oct 22 18:11:18 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:11:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon Message-ID: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, then how was it he ate of the tree? Does that mean that Chava already had the yetzer hara? And if not, why would she even have been tempted. With only the yezter tov, they would be like the malachim. [Email #2. -micha] In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash able to speak and cause them to sin? From arie.folger at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:42:01 2019 From: arie.folger at gmail.com (Arie Folger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Reb Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Reb Zev Zero gave an important part of the answer. But I want to take this opportunity to express my astonishment that not more people are realizing that the lack of 'Alenu after Mussaf isn't a minhag of Yom Kippur, but a result of the original minhag, still practiced in Yekki communities, that Alenu is not recited between two tefillot that follow immediately after one another. I.e. when saying Ma'ariv immediately after Minchah, no 'Alenu is said after Minchah, or, when Minchah is said immediately after Mussaf. In many shuls, there is no break between Mussaf and Minchah (actually, no break on Yom Kippur, period), which is why there is no 'Alenu. Since most shuls, however, introduced a break between Mussaf and Minchah, it stands to reason that we should say 'Alenu and Kaddish. -- Arie Folger, Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 23 08:13:37 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] blessings Message-ID: Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 13:10:06 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] blessings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191023201006.GB20617@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:13:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should > be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because > brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) I think the former, looking at the phrase in context in the gemara. R Elazar quoting R Chanina continues (Megillah 15a): ... For two gedolei hador were blessed by two hedyotos and they were fulfilled. And they [the gedolim] are David (Shemu'el 2 24:23) and Daniyel (6:17).... And then he continues about qelelas hedyot, with Avimelekh cursing Sarah (Bereishis 20:16) causing Yitzchaq's blindness as an example. Aside from the indications from the examples... Why would R' Chanina advise us to increase the chance of a qelalah working by believing in it? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is a stage and we are the actors, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but only some of us have the script. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Menachem Nissel - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 14:43:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of the Universe. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:32:03 +0000 Subject: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis ... GOOD MORNING! How old is the universe? 13.8 billion years or 6,000 years? Did Creation take place in 6 twenty-four hour days or were they longer? This week I bring to you a fascinating approach from a fascinating man. Daniel Friedmann holds a master's degree in engineering physics and is the Chairman of Carbon Engineering, a company dedicated to removing co2 from the air to solve climate change and ex-CEO of the Canadian company that made the robotic arm for the Space Shuttle. He lays out his research in his book, The Biblical Clock. Why did Mr. Friedmann start investigating the connection between the Torah's story of Creation and the scientific timeline? The Talmudic sages teach that 'God looked into the Torah and created the world" (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. 1:2). Mr. Friedmann concluded that if the Torah is the blueprint of the universe, then the Torah account of creation and scientific account of the age of the Universe must coincide. About 700 years ago Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the assertion that time -- while God was creating and man had not yet appeared -- was different than time as we keep today. Mr. Friedmann, based on this insight and on classical sources, aligns the dates of key events as described in Genesis 1 and 2 with those derived from scientific theory and observation. How? One Creation Day = 1,000 x 365.25 x 7,000 = 2.56 billion years. The factor of 1,000 comes directly from Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day" -- where we learn that one day for God equals 1,000 human years. The 365.25 number is simply a conversion from days to years (being the number of days in a year). The factor of 7,000 relates to cosmic cycles. The Talmud, (Sanhedrin 97a), which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." Various Kabbalistic works, dating back to the first century, write that there are 7 cosmic cycles of 7000 thousand years (analogous to the sabbatical cycles). The factor of 7000 relates to these cycles. (This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs). The Torah provides a detailed timeline of the creation events. Genesis describes the timeline for the formation of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Each event is provided in sequence with a time of occurrence. For example, we are told that the sun was completed at the end of Day 4, that life first appeared in the oceans at the beginning of Day 5, and that the animals were made in Day 6; careful examination of the Genesis text reveals about 20 separate creation events. Much of the information in Genesis is further detailed in the Oral Torah to reveal a more accurate timeline of events. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b) provides the detailed account of Day 6, hour-by-hour: "The day consisted of twelve hours. In the first hour, his (Adam's) dust was gathered... in the fifth, he arose and stood on his feet; in the sixth, he gave (the animals) their names; in the seventh, Eve became his mate; in the eighth, they ascended to bed as two and descended as four (i.e., Cain and Abel are born); in the ninth he entered the Garden of Eden and he was commanded not to eat of the tree; in the tenth, he sinned; in the eleventh, he was tried; and in the twelfth, he was expelled (from Eden)..." Mr. Friedmann then calculates that the Age of the universe from the start of Day 1 to today: exactly 13.74 billion years, coinciding with the latest scientific measurements. Beginnings of life: from first thing on Day 5 ("let the waters teem" Gen. 1:20) to today corresponds to 3.52 billion years which is in agreement with the scientific time for "universal ancestor" -- the single cell. Plant life (on the land): from hours 6 to 9 on Day 6 until today ("God planted a garden... and there He placed the man... And God caused to sprout from the ground every tree" Gen. 2:8, 9) corresponds to 426-106 million years ago which he reports is in agreement with the fossil record. The Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science.... ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Daniel Friedmann Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:38 PM Micha Berger wrote: > Isn't this the a minor variant on what R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote in 1979 in > "The Age of the Universe - A Torah-True Perspective"? > http://nleresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/the_age_of_the_universe___a_torah_true_perspective.pdf > If so, you might want to see R' Ari Kahn's obections in Explorations, which > he excerpted on the Avodah email list at > http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n080.html Hi thank you, no this is different from Rabbi Kaplan's work as detailed in my book. RK had the cycles of 7000 occurring before day 1 this was not in accordance with the Arizal. In the approach here the 7000 is for each creation day based on commentary on Etz Hayim This provides an age of the universe of 13.74 vs 15 billion and allows calculation of another 17 events All but one match scientific measurement. Sorry for the short answer .... From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:12:17 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:12:17 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Which gate did they use to go into the azara when bringing the korban pesach? Message-ID: It is clear that they used shaar nikanor but the question is did they use the other gates of the azara as well? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:31:49 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 06:31:49 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Oct 25 07:14:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191025141420.GE25728@aishdas.org> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 06:31:49AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get > 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly > changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up > with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? This is a problem with concordism in general. Look at how well the Rambam held up. However, if you believe there is only one emes, and aren't ready to simply dismiss or ignore whatever evidence we do have, then you would feel there is a duty to keep on finding convergence. Not in the tenor of "science finally caught up to Torah", more "see, the two needn't contradict; you don't have to choose." :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but when a prophet dies, his influence is just Author: Widen Your Tent beginning. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Soren Kierkegaard From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Oct 27 05:14:25 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Noach Message-ID: <562504E5-2AC5-4CBA-BD30-59C27C348441@cox.net> In Parshat Noach, Ch.8 verse 2, the word "vayikalei" (and the rain from heaven was restrained) appears only twice in the entire Bible. The only other place it occurs is in Parshat Vayakhel where Moses commanded the Jews to contribute materials for the building of the Tabernacle. The Jews responded with such energy that Moses soon had more than enough material and he had to tell the people to cease. (We should be so lucky today). The people dutifully complied, as the Torah records: "And the people were restrained from bringing" (Exodus 36:6). The Baal HaTurim who pointed out the rare occurrence of this word says that this connection reminds us that when God rains down His blessings, people increase their level of tzedakah. But when the rain stops, so does their generosity. (Actually, I would have thought it was just the opposite because if God did not rain down his blessings, people would be afraid that they've sinned and therefore would increase their level of tzedakah. But as soon as the blessings rain down, people in their prosperity forget others and are less generous. I would tend to think it really depends upon the person, etc.). From ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:06:53 2019 From: ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> References: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2019, 5:43 PM, at 5:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote: >The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had >when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of >the Universe. https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/aryeh-kaplan-on-evolution-a-missing-chapter-of-the-handbook-of-jewish-thought/ I don't like the Schroederian take on Evolution, but, regardless, a major discovery. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:46:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in certain cases). So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:33:32 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon In-Reply-To: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> References: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191031023332.GE14724@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 09:11:18PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil > inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, > then how was it he ate of the tree? ... The Rambam (MN 1:1-2) says that until the sin, Adam and Chavah's challenge was to decide between truth and falsehood. And the snake provided the falsehood that they fell for. Potentially along the same lines, R' Dessler says that until the sin the yeitzer hara was externalized in the form of the nachash. The sin caused the internalization of desire. Which also depends on someone who only wants to do Hashem's Will falling for the arguments of the externalized yh"r. > In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also > called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, > because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the > question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply > the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash > able to speak and cause them to sin? First, I think the "ruach memalela" of Unqelus that Rashi is referring to is not the power to speak, but having an internal monolog. The ability to "hear" one's thoughts is a critical part of assessing what one's thinking and a necessary element of free will. Which would explain why Koko the gorilla's (et al) skill at learning sign language doesn't pose a question about kinds of soul. (And could be why they didn't *invent* language.) Pre-fruit, this world and the olam ha'emes hadn't yet split into two. (R Kook) So Adam could have encountered the snake in a non-physical way. The nachash might not even be the physical snake, but the satan who was riding him (is that the Zohar or only Ben Sira?), or the angel in charge of snakes. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:04:56 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:04:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 15 Av In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031020456.GA14724@aishdas.org> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 02:09:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: >> And further ... if a woman converts for marriage, and the >> marriage is assur, is there any way to say the conversion was >> valid? I mean, there are pretty loose definitions of qabbalas >> ol malkhus Shamayim compared to what a beis din would hope for. >> But converting for the sake of being able to do an issur??? > These are great questions, and their answers are far above my level. But > I'll say this: It is not at all unusual to come across a gemara that says, > "You're not allowed to convert in this manner, but if you did, then it is > valid." And some of those leniencies raise the exact question that RMB is > asking, because if the gerus was done is a forbidden manner, where is the > qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim? There is a significant break in the parallel you're proposing. Someone whose geirus was done wrongly but kosher bedi'eved was converted by a beis din who did something wrong. It doesn't necessarily disprove the geir's qabbalas ol mitzvos, because (1) they're relying on people who are comparatively subject matter experts, not acting on their own; and (2) they aren't necessarily converting for the sake of being able to sin. And if (3) it's about wondering about the convert's QOM vs ulterier motive (like the Rambam's discussion of Shimshon's and Shelomo haMelekh's wifes), the convert him/herself isn't wondering. Here, you have someone converting just for the purpose of sinning. It isn't about the conversion, where the ball or sin is in the beis din't court. (It doesn't involve any questions of the kashrus of the geirus being valid by circular or paradoxical reasoning -- the sin doesn't have the self-reference nature of being in the conversion itself.) > By the way, where did they find a Beis Din in Moav? Yes, that was a > rhetorical question, intended to point out that if Rus and Orpah did have a > valid conversion at the beginning of the story, the procedure must have > involved some pretty serious leniencies. Well, if two famous people went to where there was food, out of the whole Jewish and Israelish peoples, there must have been at least 3 others. That doesn't surprise me. > Hmmm... Actually, if Rus converted at the end of the story, that is pretty > problematic too, because even if there isn't any "conversion for the sake > of marriage" to worry about, the Beis Din is even more surprising. (Someone > *might* make a case that two brothers could be a Beis Din for gerus, but > when Naami and Rus were alone they didn't have any Jewish men around at Or again, anonymous and unmentioned bit players. Who said they were all alone on the road? Maybe the road was better traveled than that? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:13:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] guessing at history? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031021308.GB14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 08:16:45AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I recently heard a shiur where the presenter described the "bad > scholarship" of the Torah Tmimah when offering the "misread abbreviation" > explanation (e.g. v'hazmanim really means fill in the holiday name). I > thought it a bit unkind since ISTM the guessing about the historical > circumstances of practices is what poskim do all the time (e.g. why some > women have a minhag not doing mlacha on rosh chodesh) I noticed that his father also gets very creative. The difference is, the Arukh haShulchan's creative sevaros are always to try to figure out how halakhah as practiced could have emerged from the texts. The TT doesn't have that limitation. But saying he was wrong doesn't need to be a value judgment. For example, his theory that saying "Migdol" in (after?) bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov came from someone confusing "B"Sh" for "BeShemu'el B" with "BeShabbos" is provably wrong. The Avudraham refers to the custom, and yet predates the Christian publishing of Shemuel in two volumes. Does that make the TT morally wrong for trying his best? Or intellectually dishonest when he clearly warns you he is theorizing? It is not unlike rabbanim who make other historical guess in the fact that he too gueses. What is different is that most don't have as high of a miss rate. Which means that you should buy into these theories with a lot of caution and independent research. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:15:16 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> References: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> Message-ID: <20191031021516.GC14724@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 05:18:40PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky > country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never > existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for > farming became less important. Also, when people were eating al taharas qodesh and otherwise were keeping all those halakhos seriously, there was a stronger drive to keep as much of Eretz Yisrael tahor as possible. In addition to pragmatic reasons to save real estate. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself, http://www.aishdas.org/asp "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now, Author: Widen Your Tent at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:20:03 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031022003.GD14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:35:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the > deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh > (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community > norms...)] How can it be? It's not like the chiyuv for the amud is really a chiyuv. Even qaddish is minhag -- and he could say that without taking the amud. For example, they say that R' Yisrael Salanter held that giving the amud to the other aveil is a better zekhus for the niftar than taking it yourself. I think that the main reason why culture so emphasizes this one ritual for aveilus is because of the number of people for which a year of going to shul regularly is the start of taking minyan more seriously for the rest of their lives. So, if we find other ways to encourage shul attendance (Qaddish is still an issue), even that motive is addressed. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a http://www.aishdas.org/asp person is to remain asleep and untamed." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 30 22:02:59 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/19 7:46 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn?t find it) although I?m guessing it?s based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty ? at least in > certain cases). It is indeed based on that. > So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei > mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is > kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] Bread is different, because the gemara specifies bread, and yes, crumbs smaller than a kezayit are beteilim and may be thrown out. AIUI one may deliberately break up a large piece into pieces smaller than a kezayit in order to throw them out. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 31 08:49:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031154951.GA2681@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in > certain cases).... The AhS OC 180:4 says that the worry about crumbs had to do with the Roman shulchan, which was a small one-person thing. And if you permitted the staff to take the table out without gathering the crumbs, they would likely do so even with bigger-than-kezayis pieces. (He even mentions a discussion in the gemara that allows hiring an am ha'aretz as a shamah.) But we today don't take the table out when not eating. (Which is why we need a ke'ara to remove or cover and then restore, as appropriate, at the seder.) The AhS says the problem is that people who wash before bread will disgracefully treat the bread on the floor from previous meals. The MB s"q 10 records a chumerah of not throwing out crumbs that total a kezayis. And, in accordance with the AhS's description of the motive, warns you not to walk on any bread crumbs. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless http://www.aishdas.org/asp he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness. Author: Widen Your Tent Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From penkap at panix.com Tue Nov 5 08:26:36 2019 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: <9D1EF0D1-F323-470E-AC49-C21245FA8691@panix.com> ?Re the discussion about a particular parnassa segula having to do with the disposal of bread, I always thought the best such segula was to get a good education and/or learn a trade. Doesn?t always work, I know, but no segula always works. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:00 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechilla Message-ID: An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:58 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:26 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:42:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Al tochlu mimenu na Message-ID: On the Mesorah list, we are having a discussion about the word "na" (nun-aleph), which often seems to mean "now" or "please". It was also compared to some other synonyms. I interjected that "na" also appears in Shemos 12:9 with an entirely different meaning, "undercooked". R' Zev Sero showed how this meaning is *not* so different after all: > Al tochlu mimenu na means "as it is now", uncooked. > Think "bistro", or "fast food". The fastest food is raw. It is a common error to think that "na" means "raw" here. Rashi on the pasuk defines "na" as "She'eino tzalui kol tzorko - It's not roasted all it needs" Rashi requires the Korban Pesach to be fully roasted, and it seems that even Maachal Ben Drusa'i would count as "na". Similarly, Torah Temimah there (#73 and #81) says that one who eats a Korban Pesach raw ("chai" is his word) has *not* violated this pasuk. (But he did fail to eat it roasted as required.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:06 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") Message-ID: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? The underlying motif of washing hands is ritual purification, similar to immersion in a mikve. The rabbinical decree to wash hands before meals is based on the purification the Kohanim underwent before eating their teruma offerings. The Talmud, however, gives a rather odd rationale for "mayim acharonim", washing hands after the meal. The Sages explained that this washing removes the salt of Sodom, a dangerous salt that can blind the eyes. [Chulin 105b] What is this Sodomite salt? What does it have to do with purification? How does it blind the eyes? Rav Kook explained that to answer to these questions we must understand the basis for the immorality of Sodom. The people of Sodom were obsessed with fulfilling their physical desires. Their concentration on self-gratification led to selfish, egocentric behavior. They expended all of their efforts chasing after material pleasures. No energy was left for helping the stranger; no time remained for kindness towards others. Eating a meal obviously involves sensual pleasure. The rabbis feared that since we eat several times every day, the importance of spirituality that truly perfects man can be decreased. As a preventive measure, the Sages decreed that we wash our hands before eating. This ritual impresses upon us the imagery that we are like the Kohanim, eating "holy" bread baked from teruma. The physical meal we are about to partake now assumes a spiritual dimension. Despite this preparation, the act of eating may to some extent reduce our holiness. Therefore, washing after the meal comes to counteract this negative influence. We wash away the salt of Sodom, the residue of selfish preoccupation in sensual pleasures. This dangerous salt, which can blind our eyes to the needs of others, is rendered harmless through the purification of "mayim acharonim". [Ayn Aya I:21] Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there. Bonnie Raitt Physical strength can never permanently withstand the impact of spiritual force. F.D.R. From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Nov 11 05:06:41 2019 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: <008601d59890$dc8ba6f0$95a2f4d0$@touchlogic.com> From: "Rich, Joel" ...Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? Many years ago (after reading the section in R Dessler on dreams) I had the same question. At the time, I asked R Wolbe z'l how much time/effort I s put into interpreting my dreams. He told me that when he was younger, he had a reoccurring dream and he went to the Chazon Ish to ask its significance and what he should do. He told me that the CI told him that today we not on the madregah that Hashem sends us msgs thru our dreams, and that he should ignore it. Mordechai Cohen From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:57:24 2019 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:57:24 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechila In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)?' Isn't that the same question as why we have the aseres ymei teshuva after RH, not before? After all, the purpose of asking mechila is that we can't have mechila or kapara on mitzvos bein adam l'makom until we've had mechila from those we've trespassed against (with apologies to external liturgy). So the minhag haolam re mechila and the teshuva of aseres ymei teshuva are all part of the same process and issue. The question of why the order of of RH/AYT/YK is what it is has been asked and has a number of approaches. But your question seems just part of that bigger question. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Nov 12 06:00:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Being Sekptical About Skepticism Message-ID: <20191112140022.GA6783@aishdas.org> From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/when-atheists-stole-the-moral-high-ground/ > The Spectator > Nick Spencer > 9 November 2019 > When atheists stole the moral high ground ... > Most of us like to believe that we believe what we believe because > rigorous reasoning and reliable evidence have led us there. Most of us > are wrong. It isn't that reason and evidence play no role in our religion > or lack of it; rather that they are saturated with deeper emotional, > social and practical concerns. As Julian Barnes writes in The Sense of > an Ending: 'Most of us... make an instinctive decision, then build up an > infrastructure of reasoning to justify it.' Du Perron was no doubt very > devout. Today he may well have been devoutly sceptical. But in neither > case is he likely to have been led to his dis/belief through reason alone. > That the emotions matter is well established in the case of religious > belief, as Stephen T. Asma's fine recent study Why We Need Religion > explains. But it is less well recognised when it comes to unbelief, and > particularly the history of unbelief. Here we are still wedded to the > romantic fable of fearless sceptics hacking their way through obscurantist > bigotry, armed with nothing more than their trusty sword of reason. See epigram in signature. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:37:18 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha Message-ID: Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:39:28 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah Message-ID: The chavot yair (252) was asked by a talmid chacham (TC) about the following circumstances: The TC's cousin vowed to provide the TC with weekly wine for Kiddush. The TC would rather use his own wine as he doesn't want to have a freebie with which to do a mitzvah (see Samuel 2.24:24) He fears however it would be stealing to use the provided wine as the cousin would not have given it to him if he knew he wasn't using it for Kiddush. The chavot yair provides a detailed analysis of whether such a condition is truly binding [the whole less than 100% free and clear sale topic is an interesting one - is it not a sale if the condition isn't met or is there a separate obligation] What caught my eye however was his endorsement of the TC's preference to pay for his own kiddush even if the wine wasn't as good! It's not based on the passage from Samuel [I suspect since that case was a purchase from a non-ben brit) but rather because "tfei hiddur v'dikduk mitzvah havi im koneh ladavar mkiso dlo havi msitca d'chinam dmistra milta yesh lanu od rayah mhazohar" it's more of a beautification and scrupulousness in mitzvoth if he buys it himself so it's not free and even though this is clearly logical, we have a proof from the zohar.] My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). My meta guess would've been soneih matanot yichyeh (it's better not to take gifts) but that would require not taking the donated wine at all - which didn't seem up for grabs. Any thoughts other than behavioral economics? (we value our own things more) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:07:29 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") In-Reply-To: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> References: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191118190729.GA14270@aishdas.org> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 09:50:06AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg relayed the following piece from Gold from the Land of Israel, R' Chanan Morrison, adapted from Ein Eyah vol 1 pg. 21: > The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom > and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one > should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? But does it have anything directly to do with the city's evil or its destruction? One would be tempted to say yes, because Lot's wife *looked* back at the Cities of the Plains and was turned to salt. And the thread of melach sedomis is to ones eyesight, of all things. But this is a reference to getting an actual salt that they were using alongside normal table salt (sodium chloride) into one's eyes. There is no need to take this out of the realm of physical danger. Salt extrated from the flats in the area has far more adulteration with potassium chloride than anything we would consume today. (In fact, the modern town of Sedom was built specifically for potash [a mix of potassium compounds, mostly potassium carbonate] works.) So it makes sense in mundane terms -- potassium chloside is a moderate eye irritant, and sites also warn about abrasion in the eye as well. And in fact, to make malach sodomis more symbolic would complicate the Ashkenazi neglect of mayim achronim. We don't wash because the salt isn't used. If the salt were symbolic of Sedom and thus hand-washing more in the territory of impurity, we would need to prove that the lack of using the salt sufficiently weakens the symbolism to allow neglecting the ruling. (Back when RRW was on-list, I noted that the Ashk - Seph split on this backed up a theory he repeated here. According to Prof Agus, Ta Shma and others [not R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik], because many more Ashkneazim came ultimately from EY, rather than the more predominantly Bavli origins of Sepharadim, we can find a number of minhagei Ashk and liturgical elements sources in the Y-mi or Midrashei Halakhah even when against the Bavli. The Bavli gives two reasons for mayim achronim -- a comparison to watchin before the meal, and thus about taharah, and melach sedomis. The Y-mi only mneitons melach sedomis. Which would explain why Ashk feel free not to wash when no such salt is served, but Seph do not.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes http://www.aishdas.org/asp exactly the right measure of himself, and Author: Widen Your Tent holds a just balance between what he can - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:16:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118191623.GB14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:37:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the > period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) The Be'er Heitev says that for men it's only until one counts. Looks like the usual "don't do your own thing you might forget to do the mitzvah" taqanah (but in minhag form). The AhS (s' 9) "vegam `atah yeish nashim" who keep this minhag. But the minhag was ONLY accepted by women and ONLY until sefirah after maariv. What "after maariv" meant for single women in towns where there multiple times for maariv is beyond me. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:29:25 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118192925.GC14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:39:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in > the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the > better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure > additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). I can't answer your "in addition", but in general. One Shabbos haGadol derashah R Menachem Zupnik included the idea that it is better to use wine you bought for the four kosos than wine you got for free (for example, in "shalachmanos"). The idea is that this is actually the finer wine, regardless of the taste of the two wines. And therefore, Ashkenazim would choose white wine they bought over red wine they were given. Whereas Sepharadim prioritize color over taste preference, and therefore over this too. Perhaps it's an issue of "Adam rozeh beqav shelo mitish'ah qavim shel chaveiro." (R Kahana, BM 38a) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 19 15:40:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: <35B73FAF-B266-4A97-980D-07F0F8014233@sibson.com> If one (or a whole community)normally eats sliced apple as part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 04:55:11 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as > part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make > a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for ritual purposes. My understanding is that this is exactly why we are told to have the maror in mind when we say haadamah on the karpas. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Nov 20 13:31:40 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191120213140.GQ29112@aishdas.org> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:55:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > R' Joel Rich asked: >> If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as >> part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make >> a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? > You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a > non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for > ritual purposes. To rephased RAM's answer in the terms I was planning to use... (Just because to the way I think, I find the first sentence below a clear summary.) Whether or not a food it part of the meal has little to do with the kind of food, and more with why it is being eaten. Yes, there are rules of thumb. Like assuming fruit during the meal wasn't really as part of the meal - which RJR's example of waldorf salad violates. Just as RAM's (deleted) example of maror defies the norms for why we eat vegetables during the meal. And is a close parallel to the minhag of eating an apple as part of a siman milsa. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 21 08:43:28 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion Message-ID: Please see the article at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5213 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Interestingly, overnight peeled eggs might actually be permitted according to several authorities, as Rashi (ad loc. s.v. she?avar) when explaining the prohibition omits eggs from the criteria.Additionally, there is some debate among several later poskim about what type of peeled eggs are intended for inclusion in the prohibition - cooked eggs or raw eggs. ohr.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Nov 22 09:11:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] "Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me" (by R/Dr Hillel Goldberg) Message-ID: <20191122171120.GA24498@aishdas.org> R Hillel Goldberg wrote The Fire Within, which inspired me to explore Mussar. (And is long out of print.) Dr Hillel Goldberg's PhD thesis became the book, "Israel Salanter, text, structure, idea: the ethics and theology of an early psychologist of the unconscious". Since, RHG inhereted leadership of the Intermountain Jewish News, published in Denver. He once again inspire me week's opinion colum again inspired me, so I'm including it in full. If you like your arti https://www.ijn.com/yes-directly-moses-speaks-to-me/ :-)BBii! -Micha PS: I noticed that K'tav doesn't list that book title with what I think of as "title caps", and I see RHG didn't do so with the article's title either. If someone could explain the rules of these things to me, off list, I would appreciate it. Bcc: Dr Alan Morinis, R/Dr Hillel Goldberg (Since I didn't take the time to reach out to get permission to share their addresses. Assume I will forward them any replies.) Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me [Rabbi Dr] Hillel Goldberg Nov 21, 2019 Columns, Opinion, View from Denver More venerable than the Kaddish, older than the Haggadah, earlier than Chanukah and Purim. A sense of Jewish history connects a Jew to his roots. It can also cloud those roots. Here is what I mean. If we ask, why be Jewish, Jewish history is one answer. There are many variations on the answer, but each one draws a Jew back in time, fostering a feeling of identity with Judaism or the Jewish people. Even so, these answers rarely take us back far enough. Consider the following reasons for connecting to Jewish history: I want to keep my own family customs alive. I do not want the Holocaust to be the end of the Jewish people. I know my passion for social justice comes from Jews always being the underdog. I relish research into my own genealogy. The more I learn about my past, the more I feel connected to it and proud of it, whether I am an Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe or a Sephardi from Spain, Greece or Iraq. I get the chills when I see Israel reborn. I sit in a philosophy class and feel special pride when Maimonides is held up as a major philosopher. I study about Rabbi Akiva, Rashi and the mystics in Safed, and I know I am connected to an eternal people. In the long arc of Jewish history, all of these examples are relatively recent. They are kind of like touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and feeling connected to the American Revolution more than 240 years ago, but then thinking of standing before the Western Wall, some 2,000 years old. As in, 240 years, big deal! I do not mean to discount my feelings of awe and gratitude upon visiting Independence Hall. But compared to Jewish memory, 240 years is a blink. The thing is, we may say the same even for the 2,000 year-old Western Wall, the most powerful, emotional site in Judaism. My sense of Jewish history may cloud just how far back my roots actually stretch. Just as we may skip over the Holocaust and Maimonides and our personal genealogy to reach back so much further to the Western Wall, we may skip back further still. Take, for example, the one topic that occupies the entire, 2,711 folio-page Babylonian Talmud more than any other: "carrying," the prohibition of transferring objects from one domain to another, or of carrying objects within a public domain, on the Sabbath. For those who do not observe this prohibition, I appeal to your intellectual curiosity. Where did this come from? It originates neither with Maimonides nor in the Talmud. It is not from the ancient Holy Temples nor even from the Prophets of Israel (save one). We stretch back not to the Holocaust 75 years ago, not to Maimonides 800 years ago, not to the Western Wall 2,000 years ago, not even to the Prophet Isaiah, some 2,800 years ago. Our roots go all the way back to the first Prophet, Moses, in the Sinai desert after the Exodus. We recall the generation of the desert, of the liberated Hebrew slaves from Egypt, not just in a ritual (the seder), not just as Jewish history, and not just as abstractions ("the beginnings of the Jewish people" or "the inception of the Jewish-Divine covenantal relationship"). No, we recall Moses in the desert for something very specific that was done then and sustained throughout the generations, down to this very next Shabbos. When the Tabernacle was under construction in the desert, as G-d had commanded in the Book of Exodus, our ancestors volunteered the raw materials, the fibers, precious metals and animal skins out of which the Tabernacle was made. One fine day, on a Shabbos, Moses told the entire encampments of the Israelites: Bring no more! Why? Because on Shabbos one is not to transfer from one domain to another; specifically, from the private domain (the Israelites' homes, their tents) to the public domain, the Levite camp, where Moses was stationed and the Tabernacle was to be constructed (Shabbat 96b). Think of this. On the very next Shabbos that I welcome this year -- me, you, here, right now -- if I refrain from carrying an object out of my home, I am under the spiritual canopy of Moses himself, of my people at its very inception. I am a direct link to the Israelite sojourn in the Sinai desert and to one of the first Words embraced in practice after the revelation at Mount Sinai. I am not just connected to my roots. I am living them. Copyright (C) 2019 by the Intermountain Jewish News From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 06:35:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do beer and whiskey not require bishul Yisroel (Jewish involvement in the cooking)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha A. Bishul akum is prohibited when two conditions are met: a) the food cannot be eaten raw and b) the food is worthy of being ?oleh al shulchan melachim? (served at fancy dinners). Beer and whiskey are made from cooked grains, which are not edible in a raw state. Thus, beer and whiskey satisfy the first condition for bishul akum. Nonetheless, Tosfos (AZ 31b: s.v. V?traveihu) writes that beer is not served at fancy dinners and therefore the second requirement for bishul akum is not present. This explanation suffices for beer, but not for whisky, which is served at fancy dinners. However, Tosfos offers a second explanation why beer is exempt from bishul akum. Although beer is made from the five grains, the bracha is Shehakol and not Mezonos because beer is primarily a water-based drink. By the same token, beer does not acquire a status of bishul akum because it is primarily water. Since water is edible in a raw state, it does not require bishul Yisroel. The same rationale applies to whiskey which is a water-based drink, and as such, does not require bishul Yisroel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 15:15:56 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:15:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav Message-ID: RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did. When a friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush, the Rav began to yell at him saying that this is false. I believe this Rav thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes. However, RSRH, following the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. RSRH writes, "Yet, even if we were incapable of explaining the strange events in this story; even if we were forced to conclude as the Ramban concludes ? , 'Our father Avraham inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land, about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another sin he committed )' ? nevertheless, none of this would perplex us. The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: ?Here you have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!? It does not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust. Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: ?Look upon Me! Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!? We are never to say: ?This must be good and right, because so-and-so did it.? The Torah is not an ?anthology of good deeds.? It relates events not because they are necessarily worthy of emulation, but because they took place. Rav Hirsch's essay about the education of Yaakov and Esav may be read at Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII) There is much wisdom in this essay about education. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Nov 27 11:50:12 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:50:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a > friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav > began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav > thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following > the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to > say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From sholom at aishdas.org Thu Nov 28 06:37:50 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237da176174e2f7bc95386dc5c7b4289@aishdas.org> RZS wrote: > On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >> RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a >> friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav >> began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav >> thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following >> the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to >> say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. > > Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. And Ramban, too? And, if so, RYL made a mistake, too -- the same one that R Noson Slifkin made: "rishonim are allowed to say that, but we're not allowed to say that" ;-) Chodesh Tov, everyone. (And Hodu-Day) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 28 08:57:43 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? Message-ID: I recall being at an Agudah Convention many years ago and being served turkey on Thanksgiving Day! >From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6105 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] Thanksgiving: Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Biur HaGr?a (Yoreh Deah 178: end 7) and Gilyon Maharsha (ad loc. 1). The Gr?a is bothered by the fact that the sugya in Sanhedrin seems to imply differently than the views of the Maharik, Ran, and later, the Rema, that a Chok Goyim, even one that is not a Chok Avodah Zarah should still be prohibited. Others who ask this question and conclude tzarich iyun on the Maharik?s shittah include ... ohr.edu >From the article On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. See the above URL for much more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Nov 28 10:31:05 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a 'holiday' and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving's origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. ---------------------------------------- But they did celebrate Mother's day? Veteran's day? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 1 09:32:10 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeitzei Message-ID: <64993E05-F027-4F31-89BE-8D9D0DF924EF@cox.net> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked. Chapter 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it have to say "from his sleep?" Of course it was from his sleep. All it had to say was: "And Jacob awoke.? Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt...? Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and THEN "And he dreamt...?? So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke ?from his sleep? which is redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if that?s the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first time should just have said ?And Jacob awoke?? I propose the following possible answer: In the first instance, when he had the dream, it was really a prophetic vision and it wasn't an ordinary sleep, hence, the word sleep was omitted. However, after the dream, he slipped into a regular sleep, and therefore it says he "awoke from his sleep.? From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 1 12:04:35 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bananas are Herbs Message-ID: <20191201200432.GF19738@aishdas.org> This video explains the difference between woody plants (trees and shrubs) and herbaceous plants. Bananas are among the talles herbs. And just what is a bannana "tree"'s "trunk"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMfTkDZlFQ So, the scientific taxonomy and hilkhos berakhos agree on this one. A banana is not peri eitz. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 13:31:46 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202213146.GA29446@aishdas.org> Rav Dovid Lifshitz didn't personally eat turkey because of iffyness of saying it fits the requirement for a kosher species of bird to be backed by a mesorah. Not lekhakhah, but as a personal chumerah. And yet R Dovid celebrated Thanksgiving. (Which was a more common sentiment in the refugee generation.) But he did so with a goose dinner. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 23:35:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Thursday Night Chulent Permissible? Message-ID: <20191203073543.GA8739@aishdas.org> I would strongly dis-recommend chulent before Shabbos lunch. (Be glad I am not yours or anyone's poseiq.) Here is my argument against. The Shabbos daytime meal is supposed to be more important than Friday night's meal. One is supposed to save their favorite dishes for lunch. The gemara even mentions chamin as one such food that should be saved! So what is Thu or Fri night chulent? It is taking a food invented for the purpose of contributing to making Shabbos lunch the high point of the week's food and being too impatient to get one's treat to show proper kevod Shabbos. Rashi (Gittin 38b) says that people who make Fri night the greater meal should fear punishment! See also AhS OC 271:9, who finds what he calls a "limmud zekhus" for people who serve their most special foods Fri night -- many of them aren't as enjoyable the next morning. But he says this is why we have kugel and chulent, foods that can remain on the fire all night. After seeing what is said about not saving special food for Shabbos lunch, and chulent is designed to be that special food, and having it Friday night, al achas kamah vekamah serving it before Shabbos altogether! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From t613k at mail.aol.com Tue Dec 3 09:31:18 2019 From: t613k at mail.aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] R' Osher Katz -- Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna In-Reply-To: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130117873.1655613.1575394278828@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends and Family, I would not normally send out something so personal but my brother-in-law, R' Osher Katz, was diagnosed with cancer three months ago -- Stage 4 -- and he has not yet begun treatment, because, for complicated reasons, he has no insurance and very low income. There is treatment that offers hope of a complete remission but it is unbelievably expensive. We have tried reaching out to many Jewish and secular organizations, so far with little result. My daughter Naomi has created this campaign with The Chesed Fund to raise funds for him to begin treatment. This is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. Scholarly Rabbi Can't Afford Cancer Treatment | The Chesed Fund PS Many people give anonymously because it's a public site and they don't want their name up there, so I don't know who gives and who doesn't. If you can't afford to give don't worry, don't feel pressured but say a kapitel please for a refuah sheleimah for Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna. --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com From ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 5 11:55:02 2019 From: ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca (Ari Meir Brodsky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Tonight (Thursday evening) begin Prayer for Rain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my annual friendly reminder.... Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily prayers, beginning with Maariv tonight (Thursday evening), December 5, 2019, corresponding to the evening of 8 Kislev, 5780. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. [Sephardim replace the entire blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to Prof. Lasker for the reminder.] I encourage everyone to remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at that time. Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/veten-tal-u-matar/ (Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.) And it's been raining this evening here in Israel, thank God! Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka, -Ari Meir Brodsky --------------------- Ari M. Brodsky Teaching Fellow Department of Mathematics Bar-Ilan University Ramat-Gan 5290002 ISRAEL ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 8 07:15:44 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayishlach Brotherly Love Message-ID: <52DF2CD4-5DD1-44B6-AAEE-C16FB12F5232@cox.net> One of the most moving scenes in the entire Torah is when Esau and Jacob meet after 20 years. Chapter 33, verse 4, says: "Esau ran toward him, embraced him, fell upon his neck, and kissed him; then they wept." The Netziv points out that all the verbs in this verse are in the first person and refer to Esau. "He ran, he embraced him; hefell upon his neck, he kissed him and they cried." All the verbs are in the (third person) singular, except the last one: "theycried." Both Jacob and Esau cried?such human drama and emotion! They cried. That's the very factor that made their meeting a success. Without both feeling the emotion, neither could feel the emotion. The connection of brothers is a paradigm for the connection of nations. We need each other, and in order to laugh together, we first must cry together. The Netziv goes on to say the day will come when Esau will truly embrace his brother Jacob in honest unadulterated compassion, then both brothers will cry in happiness. May we live to see this day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 9 09:38:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Balancing Observance and the Interpersonal Message-ID: <20191209173824.GA32478@aishdas.org> By R' Eliezer Eisenberg Teaser: Havolim Thursday, December 05, 2019 Vayeitzei. Reconciling LeChaveiro with LaMakom Overview After Yaakov had a dream where he received nevuas Elokim that told him to leave Lavan, why did he seek Rachel and Leah's advice and consent about leaving? 1. Rav Gifter When your mitzva creates a burden for another person, you have to discuss it with him first. 2. The Shlah, Reb Moshe, and lhbchlch Rav Sternbuch Mitzvos should be done with the understanding that they are Hashem's gifts to us. It is wrong to do them because we have no choice, and consider them to be burdens and hardships that we have to endure. It is important to understand this ourselves, and to explain to everyone involved why the mitzva is so right and so good, in order that they should realize and appreciate that Hashem gave us the mitzva for our to'eles. 3. The Seforno per Reb Chaim Brown Yaakov wasn't asking whether to go. He assumed they would go, but was asking for advice about the best way to go - should he tell Lavan, or sneak away. 4. Abarbanel The Abarbanel says in 28:16, on the story of the Sulam, that Yaakov made the neder because he wasn't sure if his vision was a prophecy or just a dream. This was, he says, Yaakov's first experience with Nevu'ah, so, as was the case with Shmuel Hanavi, he was not sure what had happened. If so, perhaps we can say the same is true here, that Yaakov wasn't be 100% sure whether it was nevu'ah or just a dream. I don't like this approach. It was not the first time, and he certainly knew by then that it was Nevu'ah. 5. RDNJS and ENE, crystallized by a he'ara from Rav Moish Pollack. This event is a perfect example of [baderekh shehadam rotzeh leileikh molikhin oso]. It seems clear that that the tzivui of Hashem was catalyzed by Yaakov's personal choice, by Yaakov's decision to follow this particular path. That being the case, Yaakov was obligated to discuss it with the people whose entire lives were affected by his choice. I really like this explanation because of how well it fits the order of pesukim and shtims with the story of Miriam and Aharon against Moshe. Discussion ... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:45:46 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ??? ??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????: The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it) [X] THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:47:02 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:47:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered Message-ID: Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide goes out" N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. Me- it's all about the demographics G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her original drive A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with women's issues.) E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold! Me- troop levels seem dangerously low M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it? E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. Me- see comment above Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. Me- or maybe yes C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic tradition. Me- amen. As in "instant classic" Really now Israel defines our Judaism. Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this] R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. Me- I hope that's true H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. Me- Ger vtoshav? From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 11 12:37:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211203708.GE8671@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together. > [Tur YD 116] ... because it is "qasheh latzara'as". And I think the tzara'as connection is key. Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a spiritual element. > The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) > seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef > [BY OC 173] Pesachim 76b. Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the "davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as. > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since > this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition > got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo > refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it) https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38 Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M. So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam (Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From zev at sero.name Thu Dec 12 16:05:33 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 12 18:52:32 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 02:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> References: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> Message-ID: On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. ------------------------- I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Mon Dec 16 08:23:08 2019 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I agree with Joel, not so simple. A few thoughts: 1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we are not meant to follow. 2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat (which only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small fish bones, which could lead to choking. 3. Source: the actual Gemara states: Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig]. Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it bad for odor and davar acher." Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous, rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first - if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor? 4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen: https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/ While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides, this study finds that fattier meat produces more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/ 5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy (?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like condition. 6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger; therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be understood ? and taught ? as merely customary. Alexander Seinfeld >On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. >>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the >>prohibition got extended so far > >It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can >cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. >------------------------- >I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the >danger >Kt >Joel rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Dec 17 09:58:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:58:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival Message-ID: For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/ [https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish Holidays - ou.org Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ... www.ou.org This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/ YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Dec 17 14:19:31 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. He starts off with: Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept. Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to ?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal. While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*. Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to the next generation. American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog. He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Dec 18 00:52:11 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> References: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> Message-ID: He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom ______________________________________________ I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century) THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 19:03:39 2019 From: hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com (Harry Maryles) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. ... > He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO > intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr > L'Goyim. Here are my thoughts: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1 HM Sent from my iPhone, Shirley. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:27:57 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] thanksgiving Message-ID: My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back: 1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?) 2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it as such) KT from a dual citizen Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:29:26 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them out there? KT Joel Rich From acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 05:32:33 2019 From: acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com (Allen Gerstl) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud. As a part of Talmud, Science (Maasei Bereishit) and Metaphysical Philosophy (Maasei Merkavah) involves knowing the works of HKBH with the goal of doing so to become closer to Him through evoking what is ultimately deep love (Ahava) of HKBH and wanting to "partner" with him in also helping the world fulfill His will and achieving such closeness. Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have explained this many times in this treatise. God is near to all who call Him, if they call Him in truth, and turn to Him. He is found by every one who seeks Him, if he always goes towards Him, and never goes astray. ..." This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models in our history. Kol Tuv, Eliyahu Gerstl, Toronto, Canada From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 18 14:51:09 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:19:31PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > See > https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ and part 2: https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world-part-2/ I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. 1. To start with the banal... The "hedgehog" metaphor isn't just about finding your company's strength and running with it. It's also about prioritizing other things out. We use the term all the time at work. We're not writing our own low-latency networking layer because there are people who do that full time. Our hedgehog is trading systems; why waste time doing something ourside that bailiwick -- find the company for whom low latency networking is their hedgehog. So, to really use the idea here would mean to leave learning to the yeshivish, davening to chassidim, go out of kiruv since Chabad does it, and just focus on leOr Goyim. Let everyone do what they do best, and hire out the other jobs to those who do each of those jobs best. Yissachar and Zevulun, but on steroids. The idiom was misused. (Totally irrelevant; it just felt good to get that off my chest.) 2. Second, a movement is a group of people who gather around an Ism, not the other way around. You can't save Mod-O by giving them a different ideal, even one you feel is related to their current one. That's killing one movement by creating a new thing to attract its adherents. Nothing too terrible. After all, the only value in a movement is whether it generates fealty to Torah umitzvos, not as an end in itself. You can't just tell people "here's your new ideal now". (Which is basically the same as RJR's point.) That mod-O crowd would have to buy into this leOr Goyim Ism for themselves. You can't just propose it in a Lehrhaus article. Look how many decades of leadership it took RYBS to put his fingerprint on the Mod-O ideal, and even that was only in the realm of nuance about what "u" means, and what "mada" does. You expect to totally redirect the community without having a rabbi's rabbi at the helm? Then figure out how to fire up a grass roots movement. Because we are not talking about a "hedgehog", we are talking about what idea people should put front-and-center in their life's mission statement. The target here is diaspora Mod-O. This leOr Goyim wouldn't be attractive to somoene living in a Jewish State. Nor to someone who doesn't believe in a Torah-and hashkafah with its openness to participating in general society. But it's not Mod-O's current Ism in any way similar in emphasis or behavior. 3. As for Torah uMada... I wrote here a couple of times that I don't think it speaks well to the masses. First, because RYBS's vision of "mada" really only appeals to the academically inclined. Second, because his "u" is dialectical. Not too many people even know what a neo-Kantian means by dialectic. It's not a synthesis. It is not compartmentalization of two opposites. It's finding meaning in their interplay, without expecting to get to resolution. Can the masses do that with Torah uMadda? Or are the outcome inevitably going to be primarily a population of compromizers and a population of compartmentalizers? TuM thus has the rare problem that imperfect following of this ideal is actually worse than not chasing it at all. Because it gives motive to compromising one's fealty to Torah! TiDE doesn't have these problems, since DE has more to do with being a refined human being as defined by being cultured. High culture, not academic knowledge. And synthesis, not dialetic. The Tzitz Eliezer, in a festschrift for RSRH, described TiDE as a hylomorphism (a tzurah vachomer). That derekh eretz is the substance to which a person is supposed to give Torah's form. AND, TiDE includes much of what R Gil Perl writes about here. But without making it the front-and-center. The idea of Yaft Elokim leYefes veYishkon be'ohalei Sheim is not just that Sheim should benefit from Yefes's yofi, but that Sheim has the job of being the moral and spiritual voice in the partnership. But again, making that aspect of things the centerpiece of the movement would be something new. 4. In terms of defensibility... We are given the whole Torah project in order that we be a "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh". Hashem introduced maamad Har Sinai with those words. Arguably the Torah is to the Jews as the Jews are supposed to be to the world -- the means of obtaining Devar Hashem. But, aniyei irekha qodmin... How do you make a movement about bringing Hashem's values to non-Jews that doesn't invest more effort in doing the same to our fellow Jews? The dialectic (sorry!) between universalism and Jewish particularlism can't be thrown out the window. Although, Universalism is in now, Jewish particularism being too close to the lately much maligned ideal of nationalism. I am not saying the idea that the Torah can be viewed as a way to make us a priesthood caste to the rest of the world is false. I am just wondering if that way of viewing the Torah can possibly attract people well enough to build a new movement around. And in fact in much of part II, RGP himself spells out reasons why, for which his solutions fall flat to my ear. The Post-Modern era is not one in which the idea of spreading the message to others is going to win adherents. His answer is to sure to brand on LeOr Goyim instead of Or laGoyim, to inform rather than to preach. "My calling is not to convince you of their certitude, but to humbly offer you a glimpse of their beauty." But it is exactly the kind of subtlety that would get lost in the translation to a mass movement. One slides into the other and out of fitting with the times. 5. OTOH, what is exciting many Mod-O Jews today on a spiritual plane is what a famous Jewish Action article (somewhat incorrectly) labeled Neo-Chassidus. A worldview built on the Peiczeza and Nesivos Shalom, Tanya, Bilvavli and the Chalban. With the music of Carlebach and lots of epigrams by Rav Nachman. The opposite direction from reaching out.... Deveiqus. A Me-and-G-d way of viewing Judaism. We even have a similar problem in The Mussar Institute. (Whose audience are "spiritually seeking Jews", primarily from the non-O world.) People are getting so caught up in middah work, the reaching in, that I have a personal agenda to focus on the bein adam lachaveiro part of R Yisrael Salanter's message. Perfection in middos being their maximizing our ability to be givers (REED), to be nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chazkel), leheitiv im hazulas (R Shimon Shkop), etc... Selling an Other-Focused Judaism, even one with a universalist spin, may not be the world's easiest sell. Myself, I would push an Other-Focused Judaism too, but without the deemphasis of ahavas Yisrael in favor of ahavas haberios. And, for that matter, leheitiv im hazulas applies to physical chessed to my wife, family, friends and neighborhood well before the hatavah of teaching the world what the Torah has to offer. My spirituality starts with concern for my stomach and your soul. If only I knew how to make that message attractive in a world where products are made popular by putting the word "I" in front of their names. But that's where my own quest as moved since the days when this list began. Mussar is a good idea, and one I hadn't given up on. But it never was a mass movement, and likely something that requires that much work never could be. But could in theory be practiced by anyone is a Torah based on the idea that Hillel's saying that the whole Torah is "de'alakh sani, lechaverkho lo sa'avid" was means seriously, or that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is a kelal gadol even after you leave the poster behind when you leave the 2nd grade classroom. A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit. If only I knew how to fight those elements of the zeigeist. But then, I am not trying to rebuild an already existing movement. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:00 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cellphones on Shabbos Message-ID: There is currently a thread on Areivim titled "more than one quarter of MO youth admit to using their phones on Shabbos", in which R' Danny Schoemann commented: > And I'm sure on Avoda we've discussed why and how using a phone > is Chillul Shabbos. If not, then maybe we should. I can very easily understand people for whom the temptation is so great that they succumb occasionally or even often. But I don't think that's what you're asking. Are you suggesting that these kids honestly don't realize that using a cell phone on Shabbos is assur? It seems to me: Even the most basic listing of the 39 Melachos is more complicated than is needed for this discussion. A discussion of Kavod Shabbos would also be counterproductive. Just ask them: "You don't turn lights on and off, do you? What the difference between that and everything that lights up on the screen?" Or ask them: "You wouldn't write something with pen and paper, would you? How is texting any different?" I concede that if we wanted to, we could get involved with all sorts of lomdish chakiras to answer those questions. But none will make a nafka mina regarding mutar/assur. They are all d'Oraisa/d'Rabanan distinctions, distracting us from the main point, which is that there is no way to use a cellphone on Shabbos except for legitimate medical needs. Kol hamosif gore'a. Comments? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Dec 18 14:37:11 2019 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:37:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel Message-ID: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah related): "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23)? Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information about this?? I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers.? Joseph Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 15:29:25 2019 From: rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> R. Micha, Thank you for including me on this rich and thoughtful post. Here are my thoughts, responding to some of your points in the order that you made them. - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? Did Chabad always emphasise the outreach which has become their trademark activity? I also wonder if the comparison can be made with the other movements that Rabbi Perl mentioned. Chabad, religious Zionism, Torah Im Derech Eretz and the yeshivah movement were all started by ideological leaders with a particular agenda. Was this so of Modern Orthodoxy? I guess what I'm questioning is whether Modern Orthodoxy is based on some kind of founding ideal and agenda which would be transformed if we were to go the path Rabbi Perl is suggesting. - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development in the Modern Orthodox community. It remains to be seen how much can be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer to is instructive. - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate central concept for the community. - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work you have given to the cause over decades. But doesn't a life commitment to Talmud Torah take work? Doesn't the Chabad shlichus demand self-sacrifice for others? I'm sure there are ways to respond to this, making chilukim, etc. but I am not as inclined to rule out the broad acceptance of an approach to middot, chesed, nosei b'ol, etc in our communities. As you know, I'm working on a conference to set a process in motion. If you don't try, you won't know! Best, Anthony Check out The Rise Together Project at and my website at Rabbi Anthony Knopf From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:58:07 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191222185807.GA18920@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:03pm CST, R Harry Maryles pointed us to his blog post "Of Hedgehogs and Ideology" at written in response to R Gil Perl's two-part essay on The Lerhaus. Responding to RHM's blog post: ... > That said, I do not believe that Modern Orthodoxy should make being an > or LaGoyim its passion no matter how noble it is. In my view it should be > defined the way it is traditionally defined as adhering to the ideology > of Torah U'Madda (TuM). And skipping ahead to his close for a minute: > Does that leave Modern Orthodoxy bereft of the hedgehog concept? > Perhaps. But in my view using a Mitzvah that does not really define what > we are really about in order to excite passion in us will in my view - > not work. I thought of this while responding to a very different conversation on Facebook. Someone advocated a more meiqil approach to halakhah on the grounds that the way O is done is scaring people away. I made two objections: C was only one failed attempt at this approach -- it just doesn't work. People just don't bother conforming to the lower standard. The other objection ended with an on-topic one-liner: You can't save something by redefining it. But it matters less here. We don't really need to save Mod-O as much as maximizing the shemiras Torah umitzvos of people who affiliate Mod-O. So, assuming I thought people would stay with that affiliaiton even as the movement redefined itself, I wouldn't object. But personally, the resulting movement wouldn't be for me. As I see it, halakhah has me prioritize those closer to me ahead of those further -- so immediate family, friends, aniyei iri, etc... and much further down are non-Jews. The triage doesn't fit making providing Kol Yaaqov to the community dialog our highest priority. The other problem is that I already bought into Mussar's adage that "my ruchnius means concern for my soul and your stomach". (Something the pre-War chassidishe rebbe who was the rav of the shtielb of my childhood also regularly said.) When it comes to others, gashmi aid is a higher priority than moral education. Again, a different triage. > Rabbi Perl rejects that. He references R' Norman Lamm who - as he points > out - literally wrote the book on that subject. Rabbi Lamm says that > TuM is not an ideology but rather pedagogy - a means of `arriving at > knowledge of the Creator through the avenues of science and the arts'. > In my view, that is a distinction without a difference. Aren't all > Orthodox Jewish ideologies ultimately about that? YU-style Mod-O is indeed Mod Yeshivish. The RIETS morning is no less a child of Volozhin than Lakewood is. But it's not true that "all Orthodox Jewish ideologies" are about "arriving at knowledge of the Creator". The Rambam would go for that. But chassidishe deveiqus is about having a relationship with the Borei, not learning about him. Knowing G-d, rather than knowing *about* G-d. More on this in a reply REGerstl's email, which became its own thread about the Rambam's notion of life's purpose. ... > Not only that, but TuM need not be studied only by > the elite anymore than Torah should. We each do the best we can with > the capabilities God gave to us to do it. Perhaps if you stick with *should*, but what's the motivator for learning mada for the majority of MO Jews? It's not overtly one of the 613, and the person isn't academic by nature, what's driving that time investment into secular studies. And where in the entire span of secular studies are they to choose among if they don't have a personal drive to pick up academic knowledge? On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:29:25PM +0000, R Anthony Knopf replied to my post, writing: > - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their > point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? ... Evolve is different than reinvent. Theseus's Paradox is a thought experiment about the ship Theseus sailed in stories recorded by Plutarch. During the course of his travels, say a sail tore and was replaced. Is it the same ship? Maybe on the next trip, he replaced the mast. Let's say over the course of his lifetime, every single plank and board in that ship was replaced. Theseus would have had continuous use of a ship, at all times it sure seemed like the same ship, and yet there is nothing in it now that was in the original. Is it the same ship? Identity evolves differently than sudden redefinition. But this is a bit off coarse. We're getting more caught up in whether, if the Mod-O infrastructure and membership would largely go for a leOr Goyim ideology, if they would still be Mod-O or not. Which gets more into the definition of a movement than either issues of right or wrong or of feasibility. I really wanted to focus on feasibility. I don't think MO membership would feel they're on the same ship if this were attempted. And so, it wouldn't work. > - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus > article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. > And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a > powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development > in the Modern Orthodox community... I think the question of ultimate purpose is a critical one, regardless of who we're talking about. I recently ran a workshop to help people write life- > be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of > "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer > to is instructive. But it manages to do so without leaving Torah uMada. It seems the Brisker tenor of Mod-Yeshivish a la RYBS is a less deeply held emotional issue. The feeling that we're staying on the same core idea is still there. After all, my youth included some very neo-Chassidus like moments at NCSY kumzeitzin. > - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding > an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the > difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than > "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of > Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent > academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate > central concept for the community. I do to, but... > - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a > popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work > you have given to the cause over decades... > But doesn't a life > commitment to Talmud Torah take work? But then, the learning that has become most popular is daf yomi. You get a feeling of acocmplishment. It's like the difference between a second hand and an hour hand on a watch. The second hand is doing 3,600 times the work, but you can see it working. An hour hand.... Working on middos is slow. There is no "I finished my first mesechta" or "500 blatt" or whatever. You work and you work, and eventually you notice the hour hand is pointing to a new hour when your wife says something about how you've been with the kids lately. And even that is months or years away from then you started. Well, now that I have split my dream into two, I can more easily articulate it. I hope. A central idea for AishDas is to plant the seed of "a vaad in every shul", paralleling the spread of daf Yomi. We had other ideas that we would "get to later", but really the only project we ever invested effort in was the spread of ve'adim. My dream was not that you would have a whole movement of people actively working on their middos. Halevai you could, but as you just noticed, I don't think the masses are ready for years and years of work before seeing signficant results. Character change is slow. Rather, I thought that the existence of those 5-6 people in the va'ad would have secondary effects on the rest of the shul. All the value we're supposed to be giving ehrlachkeit would stay in the discussion. We would be able to see a Yahadus in which how you act on line for the bus is no less a defining feature of who is "one of us" as is what a person eats. More recently, really since I was waiting for the editing of my sefer, I started trying to put another buzzword out there -- Other-Focused Orthodoxy. Because there has to be exploration on how to get to an ehrlachkeit-centered rather than frummkeit-centered observance through ways other than hoping the kind of people AishDas was reaching to would have cultural influence on the kelal. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:19:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] The Rambam's Hedgehog (was: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191222181924.GA22988@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:32pm GMT, R Eliyahu Gerstl responded to RGP's thesis: > I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's > concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct > to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be > considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. > The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch > davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: > Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud... I don't see two points here in the Rambam, Yesodei haTorah 2:1-3 and Hil' Talmud Torah 1:11. In YhT the Rambam defines ahavas H' and yir'as Hashem in terms of a thirst to know about G-d. Because, as I wrote above (in response to RHM), it seems to me the Rambam defines his "deveiqus" (as REG puts it) as an intellectual unity. "What is the way to love Him and feel yir'ah for Him? When a person contemplates His Actions and His Creations, which are nifla'im gedolim, and sees His Chokhmah in it... immediately he love, praises, glorifies, and mis'aveh ta'avah gedolah ot know the sheim hagadol..." First, in TT 1:11, the shelish betalmud is halachic dialectic -- "... until he knows what are the iqar of the midos [shehaTorah nideshes bahen] and how to extract what is assur and what is mussar, andthe like, from what he studied from the oral tradition." Not aggadita. We do find aggadita included with Mada in YhT 2:2 as the means to ahavas veyir'as Hashem. Different mitzvos than TT. To skip to the end of this post too because I want to respond to it together with the above: > This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing > on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of > HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by > a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models > in our history. What neo-Chassidus shows is that the Mod-O Jew is looking for some experiential / emotional Judaism. But in any case, I don't think the Rambam's parallel to deveiqus is a major element in today's hashkafic discourse. Too cerebral, too much aimed only at the academic. I also amnot sure the Rambam's hashkafah was particularly popular among Chazal either. > Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 To me, the core thought of this last pereq of the Moreh is his ranking of the 4 types of perfection the gemara expects of a navi -- wealth, health, intellect and middos. The Rambam flips the last two, not only in the order he presents them, but the Rambam is clear that these are asvending types of perfection. That only intellectual perfection is a permanent refinement of the most core part of the self: The fourth kind of perfection is the true perfection of man: the possession of the highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards God. With this perfection man has obtained his final object; it gives him true human perfection; it remains to him alone; it gives him immortality, and on its account he is called man. Examine the first three kinds of perfection, you will find that, if you possess them, they are not your property, but the property of others; according to the ordinary view, however, they belong to you and to others. But the last kind of perfection is exclusively yours... And as REG also quoted: > ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by > him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the > knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the > manner in which it influences His creatures in their production > and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will > then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, > and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have > explained this many times in this treatise. Really, more so than middos and character? And so I thought for decades, until I saw RYBS said differently. Not that I understand how RYBS reaches that concludion, given how much of pereq 54. And the opening chapters of the Moreh about how the eitz hadaas messed up the pursuit of knowledge by introducing precondition steps; the definition of nevu'ah as an overflow from the Active Intellect; 3:18 where he defines a homo sapien's personhood in proportion to their knowledge, so that a person receives hashgachah peratis is proportional to yedi'ah; and 3:51 and the castle garden metaphor at the start of the Moreh's closing section. Really, it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the Moreh Nevuchim. BUT RYBS understands this section of 3:54 as saying that even yedi'ah isn't the end of the human endevor, chesed, mishpat and tzedaqah are. Looking at pereq 53: This chapter encomapsses the meanig of three sheimos that needs explaining: chesed, mitzpat, and tzedaqah. And so on, until: We have shown that "chesed" refers to gemilus chesed gamur, and "tzedaqah" to any good that one does because of the loftiness of middos, to thereby complete one's nefesh, and "mishpat" sometimes has an outcome of neqamah, and sometimes tov. We already epxlained how distant attributes are [from theology][ that any attribute one attributes to the Deity yisbarakh in the books of nevi'im is an attribute of action. ... And then the Rambam returns to this idea later in 54. The navi does not content himself with explaining that the knowledge of G-d is the highest kind of perfection; for if this only had been his intention, he would have said, ... He says, however, that man can only gain praise for himself in the knowledge of G-d and in the knowledge of His "Ways and Attributes", which are His actions, as we have shown (MN 1:54) in expounding the passage, "har'eini na es Kevodekha" (Exod. 38:13). We are thus told in this passage that the Divine acts which ought to be known, and ought to serve as a guide for our actions, are, ch??es, mishpat, antzedaqah." Another very important lesson is taught by the additional phrase, "ba'aretz." It implies a fundamental principle of the Torah; it rejects the theory of those who boldly assert that God's providence does not extend below the sphere of the moon, and that the earth with its contents is abandoned, that "azav H' es ha'aretz" (Yechezqeil 8:12). It teaches, as has been taught by the greatest of all wise men in the words, "Lashem ha'atez umloa'ah" (Shemos 9:29), that His providence extends to the earth in accordance with its nature, in the same manner as it controls the heavens in accordance with their nature.... And so on. So far, all about knowledge of HQBH. Even chesed, tzedaqah umishpat are about knowing *Hashem's* HZu"M, and that there is hashgachah in this world. And then, this: The navi thus, in conclusion, says, "ki ba'eileh chafatzti, ne'um H'" i.e., My object [in saying this] is that you shall practise HZu"M the earth. In a similar manner we have shown (MN 1:54) that the object of the enumeration of H's 13 Middos is the lesson that we should acquire similar attributes and act accordingly. The object of the above passage is therefore to declare, that the perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired -- as far as this is possible for man -- the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek HZu"M, and thus to imitate the ways of G-d. We have explained this many times in this treatise. So, the purpose of all this knowledge is to know what to emulate. And yet the perfection of the knowledge is a greater perfection than the perfection of the middos one acquired by emulation? What am I missing? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 16:11:11 2019 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: In Avodah v37n97, one of R'Micha's last thoughts was > A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit < which brings us back to TiDE and RSRH's Mensch Yisrael. --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 03:18:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > What percentage of people would like to know how they are > really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self- > image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not > telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them > out there? Personally, I would love to know about the things I do that are viewed negatively by others. If I had that information, I could either correct my actions, or I could explain myself to them and thereby improve their views of me, and possibly even improve how *they* act. However, as much as I would like that, I generally do not tell others when I view them negatively. To do so successfully requires a great deal of tact and sensitivity, and experience has shown me that I usually fail when I attempt these things. I believe that this approach is supported by the halachos of Tochacha: attempt to correct people, but first, do no harm. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 24 23:14:21 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 07:14:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv Message-ID: From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, it should be done by example. My response: Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner consistent with the will of HKB"H. If the result is we are mekarev them (as imho it would be if we act this way), great BUT that is not our ultimate goal (much as we don't do mitzvot for reward, it's an ancillary benefit) Your thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Dec 26 09:42:22 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=96_A_Torah_View?= Message-ID: https://rabbiefremgoldberg.org/audio_listing/celebrating-birthdays-a-torah-view/ I think that many will be surprised by this talk. There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 26 20:05:48 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 04:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=E2=80=93_A_Torah_View?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F184740-02E5-426B-85CE-342B8AA10C63@sibson.com> There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL ______________________________________________ I gave a shiur on this a number of years back. My main take away was it should be used as an opportunity for reflection, Not A celebration per se Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 20:07:55 2019 From: jmeisner at gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:07:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel In-Reply-To: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:36 AM Joseph Kaplan via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel > in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in > Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah > related): > > "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah > scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival > in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who > were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, > etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23< > https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/babylonian_exile/>)? > > Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: > > ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any > assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely > the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during > this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the > assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information > about this?? > > I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about > is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows > what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article > and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical > sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher > butchers.? > I assume that the author was taking creative license based on Sanhedrin 38a, which states more generally that the galus of Tzidkiyahu was pushed earlier so that they would arrive while the charash and the masger of the galus of Yechonya were still alive. To address RDYL's question, what would such help have looked like? A brigade of soldiers (or elephants)? A steady stream of volunteers? Massive infusions of gold that could be used to buy modern weaponry on the black market? Considering the distance between Bavel and Eretz Yisroel and the difficulty in traveling between one and the other, this question may have a very modern bias to it. I was going to suggest that the king of Persia may have further objected to any of this assistance leaving his territory, but, according to Wikipedia, the Parthians did not conquer Bavel until shortly after the neis of Chanukah, prior to which it was until the control of the... Seleucids. Hence, the Seleucid governor of Bavel certainly would not have approved of any aid being provided to the rebellion in Eretz Yisroel. Did the decrees against Torah in Eretz Yisroel also apply in Bavel? I've never heard this discussed. More generally, it seems that we (or maybe just I?) know little about the Jews of Bavel during the time period in question. Ezra (and perhaps Zerubavel) left there a couple of centuries earlier, while Nechemya left from and Mordechai and Esther were in Paras. There are a handful of tanna'im called Bavli'im, but the center of the chachmei hamishnah was clearly in Eretz Yisroel. While it's conceivable (although perhaps not likely) that there were direct lines from the yeshivos of the charash and masgeir to the yeshivos of Rav and Shmuel, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was strong religious leadership the whole time that would have coordinated such an assistance drive for the Chashmona'im. Just a few thoughts. A lichtige Chanukah (What's the origin of this phrase, by the way?), Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Mon Dec 30 05:19:42 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Anti-Semitism is Out of Control Message-ID: <7172577B-31F7-4CA0-B25C-35C37FB57BFF@cox.net> It is imperative to address the rampant anti-Semitism which is on the rise exponentially. Please watch the following (under) 10 minute television interview of former NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind. It is time we realize that the laws of the ?rodef? definitely apply to the anti-Semite. https://www.foxnews.com/media/dov-hikind-hanukkah-stabbing-new-york-anti-semitism From micha at aishdas.org Tue Dec 31 22:03:37 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 01:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro Message-ID: <588c3f15-5b25-452b-9857-ca858cb7cd12@Michas-iPad> CC: RRYE So, RRYEisenman's recent Short Vort has been making the rounds. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1815470 (Carried as OpEd pieces in both The Yeshiva World and Matzav.) RRYW writes: Op-Ed: Important "Checklist" Of Things To "Bring" To The Siyum Hashas December 31, 2019 11:00 am As the horrifying events of Monsey are still so fresh in our minds, coupled with other over manifestations of anti-Semitism in the New York area, it behooves all of us to rethink our preparations for the great convocation of Jews on Wednesday in Met-Life Stadium. ... Keep in mind that this event is a momentous one for Kavod HaTorah and for Kavod Shomayim. The last-minute items to remember to pack: 1. SMILE a. Most important: remember to bring your best smile with you. ... e. Keep in mind that all of the workers, security people, police, maintenance people, cleaning staff, parking attendants and anyone else working are human beings. f. These are the same human beings who our Sages say about them, "Beloved are human beings, for they was created in the image of Hashem...as it says, "For in the image of G-d, He made human beings". (Genesis 9:6) g. You must smile when you see someone created in the image of Hashem. h. Can you think of any other greater irony than for 100,000 plus people who are the children of Hashem who have come to give honor to Hashem, not recognizing those who are also created in His image? i. Smile, smile and smile more at each and every person you meet. 2. Happy New Year! a. These people are all working on what is to them one of the most important and universally observed holidays: the day which is called New Years Day. b. It is totally irrelevant that these people are also getting paid ... 3. Thank You a. This might be the most important item to remember to bring. ... Most importantly, we have the opportunity to bring Kavod and honor to His Holy name. Note his repeated appeal to bein adam laMaqom (BALM) terms. Smile at a person because he is a tzelem E-lokim and it is part of giving honor to HQBH. Or qiddush hasheim / avoid chillul hasheim. And this theme came up more in discussions of this OpEd on social media. But I have an open question about this strategy that I have been chewing on for years. Maybe people here have opinions. We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom. And so, in the short run, it makes sense to sell bein adam lachaveiro by emphasizing the BALM aspects of it -- respecting Hashem by respecting a tzelem E-lokim, and chillul vs. qiddush hasheim. But... I am not sure if I like the message or not. Isn't the road out of this whole mess a realization that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is the more central principle of the Torah? If we reinforce the idea that it is only "really" against the Torah is it interferes with my relating to the Creator, will we be in the same boat a generation from now? Are we getting people to do the right thing, and atttidue will follow any behaviors we can encourage? Can we create the right habit this way? Or are we reinvorcing the imbalanced attitude, and we'll never get out of this "frumkeit" hole? I have picked up the conundrum repeatedly since starting on my book. I don't have an answer, though. Your thoughts? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and http://www.aishdas.org/asp this was a great wonder. But it is much more Author: Widen Your Tent wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "mensch"! -Rav Yisrael Salanter From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 1 18:49:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Tu B'Av Message-ID: A thought for Tu B'AV: R'SBG (taanit 30b) designates the two most yamim tovim (holidays) Yom Kippur and Tu B'av. While the gemara lists a number of events which occurred on Tu B'av, I've always been partial to Yom Tvar Hamaagal (the day they stopped cutting wood for the wood pile). Initially I favored it as a paradigm for priority juggling (going back to Torah learning when your job is done), but it occurred to me that the pairing with Yom Kippur is exquisite - Yom Kippur being representative of the short spurt/high profile avodat Hashem while Tu B'av represents the ongoing low profile diligent avodah of daily life. We need both! GCT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at m5.chicago.il.us Wed Oct 2 09:44:52 2019 From: jay at m5.chicago.il.us (Jay F. Shachter) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:44:52 +0000 (WET DST) Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: from "avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org" at Oct 1, 2019 05:57:56 pm Message-ID: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> > > In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a few weeks. Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter 6424 North Whipple Street Chicago IL 60645-4111 (1-773)7613784 landline (1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice jay at m5.chicago.il.us http://m5.chicago.il.us "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur" From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 2 15:57:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] With One Possible Exception In-Reply-To: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> References: <15700526930.76e9bf.36646@lsd.chicago.il.us.chicago.il.us> Message-ID: <20191002225720.GA3766@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 04:44:52PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote: >> In the Torah, you will not find a "she-" prefix. HQBH uses "asher". > With one possible exception: "bshaggam", which we will be reading in a > few weeks. I know Rashi says it's like "beshegam" with a segol, and then explains it as "bishvil shegam". And maybe the Torah contracts "asher" only when sandwitched after a be-? It would explain the uniqueness. But I find Ibn Ezra's comparison to the shin in shekhakha (in "ashrei ha'am shekakha lo") more compelling, and the Ramban did too. The Netziv has the shin as part of the shoresh, as in "mishagmaso". Etc... As RJFS writes, it's "one *possible* exception". GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder] http://www.aishdas.org/asp isn't complete with being careful in the laws Author: Widen Your Tent of Passover. One must also be very careful in - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF the laws of business. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 2 22:13:18 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut Message-ID: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. [PS: I'm not sure whether this belongs on Avodah or Areivim] -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 3 11:37:39 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 > We know that Pas Paltur, "Baker's Bread," is actually permitted year > round. Yet, During the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah one should ensure that all > one's bread products are strictly Pas Yisrael. But what do these terms > mean? And why should we be stringent with this, of all halachos, and > why specifically now? And what about Shabbos? > Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter > of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily > available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and > the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot > purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress > that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. See the above URL for more. YL From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 3 16:50:05 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003235005.GA11274@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 06:37:39PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4893 >> Some authorities, including the Rema,[8] maintain that Chazal'shetter >> of Pas Paltur applies in all cases, even when Pas Yisrael is readily >> available. However, many decisors, including the ShulchanAruch and >> the Shach,[9] argue that this hetter is only applicable if one cannot >> purchase Pas Yisrael of similar type, quality or price;[10] and stress >> that one should otherwise strive to obtain Pas Yisrael exclusively. So that while the Yerushalmi's case of eating chullin betaharah is more bein adam lamaqom... When it comes to pas palter during Aseres Yemei Teshuvah, are saying that for AYT we make a point of supporting other Jews, even if our bread may be a little pricier or not as tasty as the rest of the year. More a bein adam lachaveiro practice. GCT! -Micha -- Micha Berger Mussar is like oil put in water, http://www.aishdas.org/asp eventually it will rise to the top. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Yisrael Salanter - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:27:05 2019 From: simon.montagu at mail.gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:27:05 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Powerful piyut In-Reply-To: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> References: <0ec2ac79-4c59-3ea5-789a-49b0ddcf9f8e@sero.name> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:54 PM Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > From the Sefaradi machzor for the first day of Rosh Hashana: > https://web.nli.org.il/sites/nlis/he/Song/Pages/Song.aspx?SongID=298#2,20,508,69 > > It's powerful stuff. Worth reading even if it's not in our machzor. The > author, Yitzchak ibn Mar Shaul, was a talmid of Dunash ben Labrat, and > the teacher of Yonah ibn Janach. Powerful indeed, one of the high points of the RH liturgy. By the way, the London S&P mahzor and the Keter Shem Tov, both attribute it to R. Yehuda Halevi. From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:47:59 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice Message-ID: Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the current practice? GT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Oct 10 01:51:42 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes Message-ID: Excerpt Recent correspondence: > Sholom u'vracha, > I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It > strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly > fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two > different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av > practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other > seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts. > How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz" [ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb] I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather 1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion) GT Joel Rich From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 07:23:52 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population Message-ID: <20191010142352.GA31063@aishdas.org> One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers. This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as "clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os. Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole 6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the time the Kenaanim get to the scene.... See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel or numberous other links. They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Oct 10 09:48:15 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 11:48:15 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis > Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these > activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov? > A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom > Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical > instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3) Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies. Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments if they break while playing. It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another to continue these peripheral extensions. > On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived > the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen > Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason > presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing > and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning > a musical instrument. And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah. Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e. that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording. How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres, or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres. That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites "acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah would be equally exempt. And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments themselves. The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the first place. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: >That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod >haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites >"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a >waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah >would be equally exempt. ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3 and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY. For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 12:58:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted... ... > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the 9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians. Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3. There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to be about until at least 400 years after Chazal. In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah. Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique nighttime reading. Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat. It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside from it being minag, not din, anyway.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 12:59:14 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote: > > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer > > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah. > >But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of >minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa. When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is D'Rabbonon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 10 13:18:53 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > D'Rabbonon. Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level because of the act, not because of the date. Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From larry62341 at optonline.net Thu Oct 10 13:41:35 2019 From: larry62341 at optonline.net (Prof. Levine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <22.7A.01711.4D99F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> At 04:18 PM 10/10/2019, you wrote: >Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? If I were in EY on SA I would not dance. (Truth of the matter is that I do not dance on ST anymore, given my broken Patella.) It does seem strange to me to have Yizkor and dancing on the same day. If you read Ya'ari's sefer you will see that the ARI danced on Motzoei SA and not on SA itself. He did not dance on SA itself in EY. However, in a sefer that describes him dancing it says mistakenly that he danced and encouraged others to do the same on the night of SA. This is not true. I note that in EY there are big celebrations on the night after SA with music to accompany the dancing with the Torah. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Thu Oct 10 14:18:40 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> On 10/10/19 4:47 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice > changed from allowing the body to decay and then ?burying? the bones, to > the current practice? > GT As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for farming became less important. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From simon.montagu at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 06:21:52 2019 From: simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, In-Reply-To: <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> References: <20191010184815.GA22535@aishdas.org> <84.88.01711.7688F9D5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <20191010195851.GA32560@aishdas.org> <20191010201853.GC32560@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote: > > When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is > > D'Rabbonon. > > Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel? > I believe that doing so would be a great Tikkun. The heter "lichvod haTorah" doesn't convince me at all: all the dancing and singing and drinking and shmoozing *while the Torah is being read* seem to me the opposite of kavod. Ditto the practice of calling up everybody in the shul, which is not even a halachic requirement. I only wish I could find a minyan that agrees with me on these points. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Sun Oct 13 06:03:10 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> Message-ID: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Sun Oct 13 07:21:13 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] suffering/inui Message-ID: I'm looking into whether increased inui/suffering is ever something to seek (or at least not avoid). Besides yom kippur and other fasts are there other possible applications? I've heard some say childbirth -any sources? Any others? Gt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandels at ou.org Sun Oct 13 07:01:43 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail>, Message-ID: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. --- Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On October 13, 2019 at 9:03:19 AM EDT, Prof. L. Levine wrote: ________________________________ Subject: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres As the sun sets on Hoshana Rabba, effectively ending the holiday of Sukkos, an annual machlokes dawns regarding sitting in the Sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Is it an obligation or recommendation? Prohibited or permitted? Why do some go to great lengths to make sure to eat or even sleep in the Sukka on this day, while others will make do with a simple Kiddush or even less? And why should we keep Yom Tov Sheini nowadays anyway?? To find out the answers to all of these questions, read the full article "Insights Into Halacha: Sukka on Shmini Atzeres?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask. Legal Disclaimer The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:38:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Pie Crusts, Pas Paltur, and the Aseres Yemei Teshuva Message-ID: I've never understood the relationship between Pas Habaa bKisnin and Pas Palter. The whole concept of PHbK is that it is a snack food, and NOT a staple of the meal. This leads me to two questions: 1) As regards intermarriage, is PHbK any different than other snack foods? Are cookies and cake more prone to intermarriage than potato chips and popcorn? Why include it in the halacha of Pas Akum? 2) If PHbK is included in Pas Akum, why allow it the kulos of Pas Palter? Pas Palter was relaxed because it was difficult to get Pas Yisroel, and obtaining a staple like bread was a dealbreaker. Did they consider PHbK to be a staple also? Why be lenient? I expect the answer will be something like making a Lo Plug for both kinds of Pas. But the whole point of PHbK is that it is different than Pas Gamur. << Insert here several days of pondering how to continue that train of thought. >> If Chazal had wanted to, they could very easily have chosen to legislate Lo Plug: Washing, Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon for ALL types of pas. But instead, they recognized PHbK as a very different sort of food, and they gave it all the leniencies of cooked grains, *provided* it is eaten only as a snack, and not as a meal. In choosing *not* to go with the "lo plug", they've allowed room for loads of shailos and confusion. The biggest ones, of course, are "what defines a meal in this context" and "is xyz Pas Gamur or is it PHbK", and then goes on to many others. Like what's a meal for Kiddush bMakom Seuda, or eating cake in the sukkah, etc etc etc, and so on until this thread about Pas Palter. So I guess I could phrase my question like this: It seems that in many many areas of halacha, Chazal were content to consider PHbK as distinct from Pas Gamur, provided it is eaten as a snack. But for Pas Palter, they seem to consider PHbK as identical to Pas Gamur, *even* when eaten as a snack, and they did this both l'chumra (avoid cookies hacompanies during Aseres Ymei Teshuva) and l'kula (allow cookies hacompanies the rest of the year). Why did they (apparently) choose to be inconsistent? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:38:38 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mimetics Message-ID: https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/09/jewelry-on-shabbat-pretty-or-prohibited/ > "We have seen that halachic scholars throughout the centuries have exerted > great effort to justify the common practice of women to wear jewelry on > Shabbat. In today's milieu, however, there is a greater consciousness of > legal texts among the general populace, and many people wish to adopt > an optimal standard of halachic practice. How should a woman of this > persuasion conduct herself?" Optimal? Mimetics be darned! Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 16 14:35:53 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:35:53 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? Message-ID: Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community norms...)] Moadim Lsimcha/gmar tov Joel Rich From chidekel at mail.gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:50:54 2019 From: chidekel at mail.gmail.com (Meir Shinnar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret Message-ID: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Seth Mandel > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers > (like the Arukh haShulhan). There is not a single posek before the advent > of chasidus who justifies such a custom, even though some families were > known not to eat some of their meals in the sukka. It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik in his classes ( and it is also in his scollected essays, in a book review of a book that brings the data - away from my books so can't cite exact source)that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. Meir Shinnar From mandels at ou.org Wed Oct 16 14:15:42 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:15:42 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, as I mentioned, there were a couple of families (including Treibusch, from Rashi) who did not eat in the Sukka all the meals on Shemini Atzeret. But, as I said, no one paskened that way nor allowed anyone else to practice that. Saying that one family has a very strange minhog does NOT mean that everyone should or even is allowed to do it. From: Meir Shinnar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 4:50 PM > It's been mentioned here a while back that rabbi dr chaim soloveitchik > ... that it was the Minhag of rashi's family ( this is more than just > some families....) through the ages not to eat in. Sukka on shmini atzeret > (including the dayan of vilna on time of gra). This predates hasidut, > even if not in standard books of psak, but by major figures > I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l > said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that are against established halokho, such as not eating in the sukka here or going into a heated mikva on Shabbos. It has been suggested that perhaps this was do to his friendship with the Tzemach Tzedek. Regardless of the reason, there are enough of these cases (and the entire lack of any case where he condemns quesitionalbe chasidic practices) to justify calling him at the least a "fellow traveler." That does not mean he was not a talmid chochom. As as for using his book to pasken, everyone also knows that the "Shulkhan Arukh haRav" was the major other book used to pasken, and he was much more than a "fellow traveler." But the poskim knew about the cases where both books departed from established psak to justify chasidic practices, and so you will not find people like the Chayye Odom or Mishna Brurah bringing these cases lahalokho. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel Rabbinic Coordinator The Orthodox Union Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels at ou.org From hanktopas at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:42:41 2019 From: hanktopas at gmail.com (Henry Topas) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: Mo'ed Tov: I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this structure has been instituted? Is it different in nuschaot other than Ashkenaz? Shkoyech and a Git'n Kvitel, HT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:00:21 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:15:42PM +0000, Mandel, R/Dr Seth responded to R/Dr Meir Shinar: >> I also wonder about calling the arukh hashulchan, whom Rav henkin Zt"l >> said was the accepted book of psak in lita, as a fellow traveler.. > As far as the Arukh haShulhan goes, everyone agrees that he was a great > talmid chacham. However, everyone who knows his book also knows that > he tries to find justifications for some things that chasidim do that > are against established halokho... Not my experience at all. He does work hard to find justifications for things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, not the practices of Chassidim. On the subject of Litvaks who considered the AhS one of their own: Add the early RMF, who wrote in vol 1 that the AhS was poseiq acharon, only to switch to saying so of the MB in a later volume. (My guess is that when R Moshe saw that lemaaseh the MB was being followed over the Ahs in nearly all quarters, he stopped holding out.) Also, R' Dovid Lifshitz and R' S Yaakov Weinberg both told their talmidim to turn to the AhS. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but by rubbing one stone against another, Author: Widen Your Tent sparks of fire emerge. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 17 14:14:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Sukka on Shmini Atzeres? In-Reply-To: <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> References: <17.10500.435.335246.1570921661.0013554.2Jm@a2plmmsworker01.prod.iad2.gdg.mail> <783B726F-1151-4B6F-B366-297C2A77CF6D@ou.org> Message-ID: <20191017211443.GA16981@aishdas.org> On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 02:01:43PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote: > What Rabbi Spitz neglects to note is that every single one of the sources > that justify not eating in the sukka are chassidim or fellow travelers ... True. But the Minchas Elazar's validation of the practice is so cute I just need to share it. (It's been a few years since the last time.) The gemara writes (47a): meisiv ha yasvei, berukhi lo mevorkhei Rav Huna bar Bizna and all the gedolei hador "sitting they would sit, but the berakhah they didn't bless". The Muncaczer wonder about the double language. Why wouldn't the gemara just say "ha yasvei velo mvorkhei"? So he suggests that the gemara is to be read as bitmiya: "Do you think sitting they would sit when the berakhah they couldn't bless?!" As I said, cute. Totally unconvincing to this Litvak, but I admit the creativity. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call http://www.aishdas.org/asp life which is required to be exchanged for it, Author: Widen Your Tent immediately or in the long run. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Henry David Thoreau From zev at sero.name Fri Oct 18 07:41:57 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:41:57 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c715c42-4f5f-8013-d89a-fd77762fcb25@sero.name> On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Davening isn't structured with kaddish opportunities in mind. On the contrary, kaddish is an afterthought, tacked on to the bits before and after the main event. Since on Yom Kippur we (at least in principle) go right through the day there's no need to conclude each tefilla with ketoret and/or Aleinu, and thus no opportunity for kaddish afterwards. I davened at a Sefaradi minyan, where things were different. First, after musaf there was Ketoret/Ledavid Mizmor/Ledavid Ori, followed by a kaddish (though surprisingly it was not Al Yisrael), and then Alenu followed by chatzi kaddish. After mincha there was a perek of tehilim and alenu, each followed by kaddish. There was nothing after ne'ilah, but there was a kaddish after each of the sifrei torah in the morning. In addition, as is my custom, I learned Kelim 24 and Mikvaot 7 before musaf and again before mincha and concluded them after those tefilot, with Kadish Al Yisrael. I seem to recall there was also something learned during the 40-minute break before mincha, followed by kaddish Al Yisrael, but my memory is a bit hazy. (I do remember that mishnayot Yoma was learned after maariv, followed by kaddish.) If you had been at an L shul, your kaddish opportunities would have been as follows: After musaf there would be tehillim and mishnayos; after mincha there would be Ledavid Ori; and after neilah there would be Ketores, tehillim, and mishnayos; each followed by kaddish, plus one on the first sefer torah in the morning. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From mandels at ou.org Fri Oct 18 08:13:10 2019 From: mandels at ou.org (Mandel, Seth) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini Atzeret In-Reply-To: <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> References: <3A6D1223-CCE6-4A82-9A10-793B86893DBB@gmail.com> , <20191017210021.GD29246@aishdas.org> Message-ID: From: Micha Berger Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 5:00 PM > Not my experience at all. [AhS] does work hard to find justifications for > things that people do -- but among Litvaks, not Chassidim. Well, let me > tone that down, he'll try to find justification for what other qehillos > do. BUT, when it comes to bottom line, it's Litta's mimetic tradition, > not the practices of Chassidim. He works hard to find bases for minhogim of many groups. His defense of the chasidic customs that violate halokho, however seems to notable, because he does it for all of the three or four cases that are directly against all the poskim. I am not enough of an expert to evaluate whether it is egregiously different than his defense of other minhogim. But it is fairly well known that he became a great admirer of the Tzemach Tzedek after he first met him. Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel From micha at aishdas.org Sat Oct 19 18:57:01 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Barukh Dayan haEmes - Rabbanit Shoshana Boublil In-Reply-To: <10375da9-e283-47e9-ae6d-25316c491142@Michas-iPad> Message-ID: <39cbf7cd-2d3e-48d7-b363-268c0ac5baf2@Michas-iPad> I regret having to share the news that Rt Shoshana Boublil has lost her battle against cancer. The levayah will be tomorrow at 12:30 Bet Olamin haYarqon, Shaar Ge?ulah Her family will be sitting shiv?ah at her home. The address was sent to Areivim. I would say more, but I have no idea how the laws of hespedim on ch?m apply to this situation. -Micha > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isaac at balb.in Sun Oct 20 00:33:15 2019 From: isaac at balb.in (Dr. Isaac Balbin) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:33:15 +1100 Subject: [Avodah] Sukkah on Shmini At erect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A7F7B49-E256-4064-B391-46540CA77860@balb.in> From: "Mandel, Seth" One must also bear in mind that apart from his friendship and esteem for the Tzemach Tzedek (Agav, The Beis HaLevi also sent Shaylos to the Tzemach Tzedek) one needs to remember that he was Rav in a town populated by Lubavitcher Chassidim as I noted here https://pitputim.me/2016/11/14/what-should-we-be-doing-during-the-lifting-of-the-torah-part-4/ In respect of Hagba and how that is done. _________________________ "The student of Torah is like the amnesia victim who tries to reconstruct from fragments the beautiful world he once experienced. By learning Torah, man returns to his own self." Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik Z"L From akivagmiller at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:28:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:37 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Time for dinner on Shmini Atzeres Message-ID: Regarding the late afternoon of Hoshana Raba in Chutz Laaretz, Mishneh Brura 668:7 writes: <<< The Acharonim conclude that one should not eat in the evening until dark. However, b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi, he should *not* say Leshev Basukkah, because he already accepted Shmini Atzeres in davening and in kiddush. >>> >From this, it seems that the MB has no problem beginning Shmini Atzeres early, with davening and/or kiddush, his only problem is with eating. He explains this more deeply in Shaar Hatziuy 668:12: <<< The reason is because it is still part of the seventh day, and he is obligated by the Torah to eat in the sukkah. How can he eat without daying Leshev Basukkah?!?!? But to say Leshev Basukkah is not possible, because it would be a contradiction, because in davening and kiddush, he declared it to be Shmini Atzeres! >>> Writing in chutz laaretz, the MB clearly presumes that this person *is* in the sukkah, and the only problem is the bracha. I don't understand why the bracha is such a big deal. What's wrong with simply omitting the Layshev? Let's phrase it this way: This person has two choices: (A) At this time, during which there might be a Torah obligation to eat in the sukkah, he can eat in the sukkah without the Birkas Hamitzvah. (B) Because of the uncertainty about saying the bracha, he should avoid eating in the sukkah entirely, until this uncertain time ends. - It seems clear to me that it would be far preferable to choose A and thereby possibly do a mitzvah d'Oraisa albeit without a bracha, rather than just sit around squandering that opportunity. Why am I wrong? What did I miss? (By the way, please note the MB's words "b'dieved, if he already washed his hands and said Hamotzi". I am curious what he would advise for a person who said Kiddush and washed Netilas Yadayim, but did NOT say Hamotzi yet. Shaar Hatziyun 668:13 (near end) is lenient for the last quarter-hour before dark, but what if it were earlier? Would he really tell a person not to eat yet?) None of the above would apply in Eretz Yisrael, where there are real problems with eating in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, even without a bracha. Similarly, in Eretz Yisrael it's not possible to eat in the house until dark, because of the safek chiyuv d'Oraisa. But my next question, I think, is equally valid in Israel and Chu"l: Suppose it is raining on Hoshana Raba afternoon - wither in Eretz Yisrael or not - and the rain is expected to continue into the night, and he is therefore planning to eat indoors. Is there any reason to delay dinner? The MB has no problem with davening or kiddush early, and there is no question of saying Leshev. So why not? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Tue Oct 22 18:11:18 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 21:11:18 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon Message-ID: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, then how was it he ate of the tree? Does that mean that Chava already had the yetzer hara? And if not, why would she even have been tempted. With only the yezter tov, they would be like the malachim. [Email #2. -micha] In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash able to speak and cause them to sin? From arie.folger at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 02:42:01 2019 From: arie.folger at gmail.com (Arie Folger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Kaddish Yatom on Yom Kippur Message-ID: On 17/10/19 3:42 pm, Reb Henry Topas via Avodah wrote: > I am in a year of aveilut and it occurred to me that on Yom Kippur last > week, following Shacharit, there was no further opportunity for an avel > to say Kaddish during the Mussaf, Mincha or Neila parts of the tefilah. > This would seem to further differentiate Yom Kippur from other days. > > Can anyone offer sources, comments or suggestions as to why this > structure has been instituted?? Is it different in nuschaot other than > Ashkenaz? Reb Zev Zero gave an important part of the answer. But I want to take this opportunity to express my astonishment that not more people are realizing that the lack of 'Alenu after Mussaf isn't a minhag of Yom Kippur, but a result of the original minhag, still practiced in Yekki communities, that Alenu is not recited between two tefillot that follow immediately after one another. I.e. when saying Ma'ariv immediately after Minchah, no 'Alenu is said after Minchah, or, when Minchah is said immediately after Mussaf. In many shuls, there is no break between Mussaf and Minchah (actually, no break on Yom Kippur, period), which is why there is no 'Alenu. Since most shuls, however, introduced a break between Mussaf and Minchah, it stands to reason that we should say 'Alenu and Kaddish. -- Arie Folger, Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Oct 23 08:13:37 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] blessings Message-ID: Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 13:10:06 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] blessings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191023201006.GB20617@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 03:13:37PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Just a thought - the gemara tells us that any bracha given to us should > be taken seriously. Is that because we might under value it or because > brachot don't work unless we believe in them? (or something else?) I think the former, looking at the phrase in context in the gemara. R Elazar quoting R Chanina continues (Megillah 15a): ... For two gedolei hador were blessed by two hedyotos and they were fulfilled. And they [the gedolim] are David (Shemu'el 2 24:23) and Daniyel (6:17).... And then he continues about qelelas hedyot, with Avimelekh cursing Sarah (Bereishis 20:16) causing Yitzchaq's blindness as an example. Aside from the indications from the examples... Why would R' Chanina advise us to increase the chance of a qelalah working by believing in it? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Life is a stage and we are the actors, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but only some of us have the script. Author: Widen Your Tent - Rav Menachem Nissel - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 23 14:43:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of the Universe. Tir'u baTov! -Micha From: Rabbi Kalman Packouz Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:32:03 +0000 Subject: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis ... GOOD MORNING! How old is the universe? 13.8 billion years or 6,000 years? Did Creation take place in 6 twenty-four hour days or were they longer? This week I bring to you a fascinating approach from a fascinating man. Daniel Friedmann holds a master's degree in engineering physics and is the Chairman of Carbon Engineering, a company dedicated to removing co2 from the air to solve climate change and ex-CEO of the Canadian company that made the robotic arm for the Space Shuttle. He lays out his research in his book, The Biblical Clock. Why did Mr. Friedmann start investigating the connection between the Torah's story of Creation and the scientific timeline? The Talmudic sages teach that 'God looked into the Torah and created the world" (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. 1:2). Mr. Friedmann concluded that if the Torah is the blueprint of the universe, then the Torah account of creation and scientific account of the age of the Universe must coincide. About 700 years ago Rabbi Isaac of Akko made the assertion that time -- while God was creating and man had not yet appeared -- was different than time as we keep today. Mr. Friedmann, based on this insight and on classical sources, aligns the dates of key events as described in Genesis 1 and 2 with those derived from scientific theory and observation. How? One Creation Day = 1,000 x 365.25 x 7,000 = 2.56 billion years. The factor of 1,000 comes directly from Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day" -- where we learn that one day for God equals 1,000 human years. The 365.25 number is simply a conversion from days to years (being the number of days in a year). The factor of 7,000 relates to cosmic cycles. The Talmud, (Sanhedrin 97a), which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." Various Kabbalistic works, dating back to the first century, write that there are 7 cosmic cycles of 7000 thousand years (analogous to the sabbatical cycles). The factor of 7000 relates to these cycles. (This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs). The Torah provides a detailed timeline of the creation events. Genesis describes the timeline for the formation of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Each event is provided in sequence with a time of occurrence. For example, we are told that the sun was completed at the end of Day 4, that life first appeared in the oceans at the beginning of Day 5, and that the animals were made in Day 6; careful examination of the Genesis text reveals about 20 separate creation events. Much of the information in Genesis is further detailed in the Oral Torah to reveal a more accurate timeline of events. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 38b) provides the detailed account of Day 6, hour-by-hour: "The day consisted of twelve hours. In the first hour, his (Adam's) dust was gathered... in the fifth, he arose and stood on his feet; in the sixth, he gave (the animals) their names; in the seventh, Eve became his mate; in the eighth, they ascended to bed as two and descended as four (i.e., Cain and Abel are born); in the ninth he entered the Garden of Eden and he was commanded not to eat of the tree; in the tenth, he sinned; in the eleventh, he was tried; and in the twelfth, he was expelled (from Eden)..." Mr. Friedmann then calculates that the Age of the universe from the start of Day 1 to today: exactly 13.74 billion years, coinciding with the latest scientific measurements. Beginnings of life: from first thing on Day 5 ("let the waters teem" Gen. 1:20) to today corresponds to 3.52 billion years which is in agreement with the scientific time for "universal ancestor" -- the single cell. Plant life (on the land): from hours 6 to 9 on Day 6 until today ("God planted a garden... and there He placed the man... And God caused to sprout from the ground every tree" Gen. 2:8, 9) corresponds to 426-106 million years ago which he reports is in agreement with the fossil record. The Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science.... ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Daniel Friedmann Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: How Old is the Universe? Shabbat Shalom Breishis On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:38 PM Micha Berger wrote: > Isn't this the a minor variant on what R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote in 1979 in > "The Age of the Universe - A Torah-True Perspective"? > http://nleresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/the_age_of_the_universe___a_torah_true_perspective.pdf > If so, you might want to see R' Ari Kahn's obections in Explorations, which > he excerpted on the Avodah email list at > http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n080.html Hi thank you, no this is different from Rabbi Kaplan's work as detailed in my book. RK had the cycles of 7000 occurring before day 1 this was not in accordance with the Arizal. In the approach here the 7000 is for each creation day based on commentary on Etz Hayim This provides an age of the universe of 13.74 vs 15 billion and allows calculation of another 17 events All but one match scientific measurement. Sorry for the short answer .... From marty.bluke at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:12:17 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:12:17 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Which gate did they use to go into the azara when bringing the korban pesach? Message-ID: It is clear that they used shaar nikanor but the question is did they use the other gates of the azara as well? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty.bluke at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:31:49 2019 From: marty.bluke at gmail.com (Marty Bluke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 06:31:49 +0300 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe Message-ID: These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Oct 25 07:14:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191025141420.GE25728@aishdas.org> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 06:31:49AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote: > These calculations are good for an instant. So he worked it out to get > 13.74 billion years. The estimated age of the universe is constantly > changing. As soon as scientists find sone new evidence, etc. and come up > with a new age of the universe his calculation is wrong. Then what? This is a problem with concordism in general. Look at how well the Rambam held up. However, if you believe there is only one emes, and aren't ready to simply dismiss or ignore whatever evidence we do have, then you would feel there is a duty to keep on finding convergence. Not in the tenor of "science finally caught up to Torah", more "see, the two needn't contradict; you don't have to choose." :-)BBii! -Micha -- Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but when a prophet dies, his influence is just Author: Widen Your Tent beginning. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Soren Kierkegaard From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Oct 27 05:14:25 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Noach Message-ID: <562504E5-2AC5-4CBA-BD30-59C27C348441@cox.net> In Parshat Noach, Ch.8 verse 2, the word "vayikalei" (and the rain from heaven was restrained) appears only twice in the entire Bible. The only other place it occurs is in Parshat Vayakhel where Moses commanded the Jews to contribute materials for the building of the Tabernacle. The Jews responded with such energy that Moses soon had more than enough material and he had to tell the people to cease. (We should be so lucky today). The people dutifully complied, as the Torah records: "And the people were restrained from bringing" (Exodus 36:6). The Baal HaTurim who pointed out the rare occurrence of this word says that this connection reminds us that when God rains down His blessings, people increase their level of tzedakah. But when the rain stops, so does their generosity. (Actually, I would have thought it was just the opposite because if God did not rain down his blessings, people would be afraid that they've sinned and therefore would increase their level of tzedakah. But as soon as the blessings rain down, people in their prosperity forget others and are less generous. I would tend to think it really depends upon the person, etc.). From ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:06:53 2019 From: ygbechhofer at mail.gmail.com (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Age of the Universe In-Reply-To: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> References: <20191023214320.GA25394@aishdas.org> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2019, 5:43 PM, at 5:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote: >The following email exchange serves as a follow-up to discussions we had >when the list was far younger of R Aryeh Kaplan's article on the Age of >the Universe. https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2019/10/24/aryeh-kaplan-on-evolution-a-missing-chapter-of-the-handbook-of-jewish-thought/ I don't like the Schroederian take on Evolution, but, regardless, a major discovery. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Oct 29 16:46:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:46:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in certain cases). So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:33:32 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:33:32 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Adam Harishon In-Reply-To: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> References: <11E4DD48-B1E2-426C-89F9-C777D3DEAB46@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191031023332.GE14724@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 09:11:18PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote: > In chapter 2, vs.5, Rashi says Adam harishon didn't possess the evil > inclination until he ate of the tree. If he didn't have the yetzer hara, > then how was it he ate of the tree? ... The Rambam (MN 1:1-2) says that until the sin, Adam and Chavah's challenge was to decide between truth and falsehood. And the snake provided the falsehood that they fell for. Potentially along the same lines, R' Dessler says that until the sin the yeitzer hara was externalized in the form of the nachash. The sin caused the internalization of desire. Which also depends on someone who only wants to do Hashem's Will falling for the arguments of the externalized yh"r. > In Ch.2, vs.7, Rashi explains: a living soul: Cattle and beasts were also > called living souls, but this one of man is the most alive of them all, > because he was additionally given intelligence and speech. So the > question is if he were given intelligence and SPEECH, that would imply > the other creatures had no ability to speak. Then how was the nachash > able to speak and cause them to sin? First, I think the "ruach memalela" of Unqelus that Rashi is referring to is not the power to speak, but having an internal monolog. The ability to "hear" one's thoughts is a critical part of assessing what one's thinking and a necessary element of free will. Which would explain why Koko the gorilla's (et al) skill at learning sign language doesn't pose a question about kinds of soul. (And could be why they didn't *invent* language.) Pre-fruit, this world and the olam ha'emes hadn't yet split into two. (R Kook) So Adam could have encountered the snake in a non-physical way. The nachash might not even be the physical snake, but the satan who was riding him (is that the Zohar or only Ben Sira?), or the angel in charge of snakes. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished: Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:04:56 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:04:56 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] 15 Av In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031020456.GA14724@aishdas.org> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 02:09:16AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: >> And further ... if a woman converts for marriage, and the >> marriage is assur, is there any way to say the conversion was >> valid? I mean, there are pretty loose definitions of qabbalas >> ol malkhus Shamayim compared to what a beis din would hope for. >> But converting for the sake of being able to do an issur??? > These are great questions, and their answers are far above my level. But > I'll say this: It is not at all unusual to come across a gemara that says, > "You're not allowed to convert in this manner, but if you did, then it is > valid." And some of those leniencies raise the exact question that RMB is > asking, because if the gerus was done is a forbidden manner, where is the > qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim? There is a significant break in the parallel you're proposing. Someone whose geirus was done wrongly but kosher bedi'eved was converted by a beis din who did something wrong. It doesn't necessarily disprove the geir's qabbalas ol mitzvos, because (1) they're relying on people who are comparatively subject matter experts, not acting on their own; and (2) they aren't necessarily converting for the sake of being able to sin. And if (3) it's about wondering about the convert's QOM vs ulterier motive (like the Rambam's discussion of Shimshon's and Shelomo haMelekh's wifes), the convert him/herself isn't wondering. Here, you have someone converting just for the purpose of sinning. It isn't about the conversion, where the ball or sin is in the beis din't court. (It doesn't involve any questions of the kashrus of the geirus being valid by circular or paradoxical reasoning -- the sin doesn't have the self-reference nature of being in the conversion itself.) > By the way, where did they find a Beis Din in Moav? Yes, that was a > rhetorical question, intended to point out that if Rus and Orpah did have a > valid conversion at the beginning of the story, the procedure must have > involved some pretty serious leniencies. Well, if two famous people went to where there was food, out of the whole Jewish and Israelish peoples, there must have been at least 3 others. That doesn't surprise me. > Hmmm... Actually, if Rus converted at the end of the story, that is pretty > problematic too, because even if there isn't any "conversion for the sake > of marriage" to worry about, the Beis Din is even more surprising. (Someone > *might* make a case that two brothers could be a Beis Din for gerus, but > when Naami and Rus were alone they didn't have any Jewish men around at Or again, anonymous and unmentioned bit players. Who said they were all alone on the road? Maybe the road was better traveled than that? Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger We are great, and our foibles are great, http://www.aishdas.org/asp and therefore our troubles are great -- Author: Widen Your Tent but our consolations will also be great. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi AY Kook From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:13:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] guessing at history? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031021308.GB14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 08:16:45AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > I recently heard a shiur where the presenter described the "bad > scholarship" of the Torah Tmimah when offering the "misread abbreviation" > explanation (e.g. v'hazmanim really means fill in the holiday name). I > thought it a bit unkind since ISTM the guessing about the historical > circumstances of practices is what poskim do all the time (e.g. why some > women have a minhag not doing mlacha on rosh chodesh) I noticed that his father also gets very creative. The difference is, the Arukh haShulchan's creative sevaros are always to try to figure out how halakhah as practiced could have emerged from the texts. The TT doesn't have that limitation. But saying he was wrong doesn't need to be a value judgment. For example, his theory that saying "Migdol" in (after?) bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov came from someone confusing "B"Sh" for "BeShemu'el B" with "BeShabbos" is provably wrong. The Avudraham refers to the custom, and yet predates the Christian publishing of Shemuel in two volumes. Does that make the TT morally wrong for trying his best? Or intellectually dishonest when he clearly warns you he is theorizing? It is not unlike rabbanim who make other historical guess in the fact that he too gueses. What is different is that most don't have as high of a miss rate. Which means that you should buy into these theories with a lot of caution and independent research. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:15:16 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice In-Reply-To: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> References: <02d87ed0-95e8-4b92-91ba-34246d042db4@sero.name> Message-ID: <20191031021516.GC14724@aishdas.org> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 05:18:40PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote: > As far as I know the old practice was necessary because EY is a rocky > country and it's hard to dig graves in rock. In Bavel the practice never > existed, and in EY it changed when preserving all the arable land for > farming became less important. Also, when people were eating al taharas qodesh and otherwise were keeping all those halakhos seriously, there was a stronger drive to keep as much of Eretz Yisrael tahor as possible. In addition to pragmatic reasons to save real estate. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger When faced with a decision ask yourself, http://www.aishdas.org/asp "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now, Author: Widen Your Tent at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?" - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter From micha at aishdas.org Wed Oct 30 19:20:03 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] benefit the deceased ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031022003.GD14724@aishdas.org> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 09:35:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Does an aveil (mourner) who acts as a shatz (prayer leader) benefit the > deceased if the minyan doesn't appreciate his doing so [he's not mrutzeh > (e.g. he mispronounces many words, his pace differs from community > norms...)] How can it be? It's not like the chiyuv for the amud is really a chiyuv. Even qaddish is minhag -- and he could say that without taking the amud. For example, they say that R' Yisrael Salanter held that giving the amud to the other aveil is a better zekhus for the niftar than taking it yourself. I think that the main reason why culture so emphasizes this one ritual for aveilus is because of the number of people for which a year of going to shul regularly is the start of taking minyan more seriously for the rest of their lives. So, if we find other ways to encourage shul attendance (Qaddish is still an issue), even that motive is addressed. Chodesh Tov! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a http://www.aishdas.org/asp person is to remain asleep and untamed." Author: Widen Your Tent - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From zev at sero.name Wed Oct 30 22:02:59 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/19 7:46 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn?t find it) although I?m guessing it?s based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty ? at least in > certain cases). It is indeed based on that. > So should all bread (food?) be treated like tashmishei > mitzvah for disposal? Is bread different from other foods (and why?) [Is > kzayit a dividing line (and why)?] Bread is different, because the gemara specifies bread, and yes, crumbs smaller than a kezayit are beteilim and may be thrown out. AIUI one may deliberately break up a large piece into pieces smaller than a kezayit in order to throw them out. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From micha at aishdas.org Thu Oct 31 08:49:51 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031154951.GA2681@aishdas.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:46:14PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > A caterer recently told me that a segula for parnassa is to wrap > leftover bread separately for disposal. Anyone know the source (I > couldn't find it) although I'm guessing it's based on Chulin 105b > (getting rid of even crumbs directly can cause poverty - at least in > certain cases).... The AhS OC 180:4 says that the worry about crumbs had to do with the Roman shulchan, which was a small one-person thing. And if you permitted the staff to take the table out without gathering the crumbs, they would likely do so even with bigger-than-kezayis pieces. (He even mentions a discussion in the gemara that allows hiring an am ha'aretz as a shamah.) But we today don't take the table out when not eating. (Which is why we need a ke'ara to remove or cover and then restore, as appropriate, at the seder.) The AhS says the problem is that people who wash before bread will disgracefully treat the bread on the floor from previous meals. The MB s"q 10 records a chumerah of not throwing out crumbs that total a kezayis. And, in accordance with the AhS's description of the motive, warns you not to walk on any bread crumbs. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless http://www.aishdas.org/asp he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness. Author: Widen Your Tent Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF a spirit of purity. - Rav Yisrael Salanter From penkap at panix.com Tue Nov 5 08:26:36 2019 From: penkap at panix.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] parnassa segula Message-ID: <9D1EF0D1-F323-470E-AC49-C21245FA8691@panix.com> ?Re the discussion about a particular parnassa segula having to do with the disposal of bread, I always thought the best such segula was to get a good education and/or learn a trade. Doesn?t always work, I know, but no segula always works. Joseph Sent from my iPhone From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:00 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechilla Message-ID: An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Nov 6 01:51:58 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:58 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 21:42:26 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:42:26 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Al tochlu mimenu na Message-ID: On the Mesorah list, we are having a discussion about the word "na" (nun-aleph), which often seems to mean "now" or "please". It was also compared to some other synonyms. I interjected that "na" also appears in Shemos 12:9 with an entirely different meaning, "undercooked". R' Zev Sero showed how this meaning is *not* so different after all: > Al tochlu mimenu na means "as it is now", uncooked. > Think "bistro", or "fast food". The fastest food is raw. It is a common error to think that "na" means "raw" here. Rashi on the pasuk defines "na" as "She'eino tzalui kol tzorko - It's not roasted all it needs" Rashi requires the Korban Pesach to be fully roasted, and it seems that even Maachal Ben Drusa'i would count as "na". Similarly, Torah Temimah there (#73 and #81) says that one who eats a Korban Pesach raw ("chai" is his word) has *not* violated this pasuk. (But he did fail to eat it roasted as required.) Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Nov 10 06:50:06 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") Message-ID: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? The underlying motif of washing hands is ritual purification, similar to immersion in a mikve. The rabbinical decree to wash hands before meals is based on the purification the Kohanim underwent before eating their teruma offerings. The Talmud, however, gives a rather odd rationale for "mayim acharonim", washing hands after the meal. The Sages explained that this washing removes the salt of Sodom, a dangerous salt that can blind the eyes. [Chulin 105b] What is this Sodomite salt? What does it have to do with purification? How does it blind the eyes? Rav Kook explained that to answer to these questions we must understand the basis for the immorality of Sodom. The people of Sodom were obsessed with fulfilling their physical desires. Their concentration on self-gratification led to selfish, egocentric behavior. They expended all of their efforts chasing after material pleasures. No energy was left for helping the stranger; no time remained for kindness towards others. Eating a meal obviously involves sensual pleasure. The rabbis feared that since we eat several times every day, the importance of spirituality that truly perfects man can be decreased. As a preventive measure, the Sages decreed that we wash our hands before eating. This ritual impresses upon us the imagery that we are like the Kohanim, eating "holy" bread baked from teruma. The physical meal we are about to partake now assumes a spiritual dimension. Despite this preparation, the act of eating may to some extent reduce our holiness. Therefore, washing after the meal comes to counteract this negative influence. We wash away the salt of Sodom, the residue of selfish preoccupation in sensual pleasures. This dangerous salt, which can blind our eyes to the needs of others, is rendered harmless through the purification of "mayim acharonim". [Ayn Aya I:21] Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there. Bonnie Raitt Physical strength can never permanently withstand the impact of spiritual force. F.D.R. From mcohen at touchlogic.com Mon Nov 11 05:06:41 2019 From: mcohen at touchlogic.com (mcohen at touchlogic.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Dreams Message-ID: <008601d59890$dc8ba6f0$95a2f4d0$@touchlogic.com> From: "Rich, Joel" ...Chazal seem to have mixed feelings about dreams but clearly there was a strong belief in some dream interpretation. Does this still exist within orthodoxy? Any current experts/publications in this area? Many years ago (after reading the section in R Dessler on dreams) I had the same question. At the time, I asked R Wolbe z'l how much time/effort I s put into interpreting my dreams. He told me that when he was younger, he had a reoccurring dream and he went to the Chazon Ish to ask its significance and what he should do. He told me that the CI told him that today we not on the madregah that Hashem sends us msgs thru our dreams, and that he should ignore it. Mordechai Cohen From bdbradley70 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:57:24 2019 From: bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:57:24 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] mechila In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'An old question of mine- Why is the minhag haolam (common practice) to ask for mechilla (forgiveness) during asseret ymai tshuva (10 days of repentance) rather than before Rosh Hashana (when the initial judgment is written down)?' Isn't that the same question as why we have the aseres ymei teshuva after RH, not before? After all, the purpose of asking mechila is that we can't have mechila or kapara on mitzvos bein adam l'makom until we've had mechila from those we've trespassed against (with apologies to external liturgy). So the minhag haolam re mechila and the teshuva of aseres ymei teshuva are all part of the same process and issue. The question of why the order of of RH/AYT/YK is what it is has been asked and has a number of approaches. But your question seems just part of that bigger question. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Tue Nov 12 06:00:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:00:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Being Sekptical About Skepticism Message-ID: <20191112140022.GA6783@aishdas.org> From https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/when-atheists-stole-the-moral-high-ground/ > The Spectator > Nick Spencer > 9 November 2019 > When atheists stole the moral high ground ... > Most of us like to believe that we believe what we believe because > rigorous reasoning and reliable evidence have led us there. Most of us > are wrong. It isn't that reason and evidence play no role in our religion > or lack of it; rather that they are saturated with deeper emotional, > social and practical concerns. As Julian Barnes writes in The Sense of > an Ending: 'Most of us... make an instinctive decision, then build up an > infrastructure of reasoning to justify it.' Du Perron was no doubt very > devout. Today he may well have been devoutly sceptical. But in neither > case is he likely to have been led to his dis/belief through reason alone. > That the emotions matter is well established in the case of religious > belief, as Stephen T. Asma's fine recent study Why We Need Religion > explains. But it is less well recognised when it comes to unbelief, and > particularly the history of unbelief. Here we are still wedded to the > romantic fable of fearless sceptics hacking their way through obscurantist > bigotry, armed with nothing more than their trusty sword of reason. See epigram in signature. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ http://www.aishdas.org/asp for justifying decisions Author: Widen Your Tent the heart already reached. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:37:18 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:37:18 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha Message-ID: Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 12 12:39:28 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah Message-ID: The chavot yair (252) was asked by a talmid chacham (TC) about the following circumstances: The TC's cousin vowed to provide the TC with weekly wine for Kiddush. The TC would rather use his own wine as he doesn't want to have a freebie with which to do a mitzvah (see Samuel 2.24:24) He fears however it would be stealing to use the provided wine as the cousin would not have given it to him if he knew he wasn't using it for Kiddush. The chavot yair provides a detailed analysis of whether such a condition is truly binding [the whole less than 100% free and clear sale topic is an interesting one - is it not a sale if the condition isn't met or is there a separate obligation] What caught my eye however was his endorsement of the TC's preference to pay for his own kiddush even if the wine wasn't as good! It's not based on the passage from Samuel [I suspect since that case was a purchase from a non-ben brit) but rather because "tfei hiddur v'dikduk mitzvah havi im koneh ladavar mkiso dlo havi msitca d'chinam dmistra milta yesh lanu od rayah mhazohar" it's more of a beautification and scrupulousness in mitzvoth if he buys it himself so it's not free and even though this is clearly logical, we have a proof from the zohar.] My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). My meta guess would've been soneih matanot yichyeh (it's better not to take gifts) but that would require not taking the donated wine at all - which didn't seem up for grabs. Any thoughts other than behavioral economics? (we value our own things more) KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:07:29 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeira (from Rav Kook Torah "Salt of Sodom") In-Reply-To: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> References: <9F76D61A-E528-4A47-BF97-53CF4BEE9E03@cox.net> Message-ID: <20191118190729.GA14270@aishdas.org> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 09:50:06AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg relayed the following piece from Gold from the Land of Israel, R' Chanan Morrison, adapted from Ein Eyah vol 1 pg. 21: > The Talmud makes a surprising connection between the evil city of Sodom > and the ritual of washing hands at meals. The Sages decreed that one > should wash hands before and after eating bread. Why? But does it have anything directly to do with the city's evil or its destruction? One would be tempted to say yes, because Lot's wife *looked* back at the Cities of the Plains and was turned to salt. And the thread of melach sedomis is to ones eyesight, of all things. But this is a reference to getting an actual salt that they were using alongside normal table salt (sodium chloride) into one's eyes. There is no need to take this out of the realm of physical danger. Salt extrated from the flats in the area has far more adulteration with potassium chloride than anything we would consume today. (In fact, the modern town of Sedom was built specifically for potash [a mix of potassium compounds, mostly potassium carbonate] works.) So it makes sense in mundane terms -- potassium chloside is a moderate eye irritant, and sites also warn about abrasion in the eye as well. And in fact, to make malach sodomis more symbolic would complicate the Ashkenazi neglect of mayim achronim. We don't wash because the salt isn't used. If the salt were symbolic of Sedom and thus hand-washing more in the territory of impurity, we would need to prove that the lack of using the salt sufficiently weakens the symbolism to allow neglecting the ruling. (Back when RRW was on-list, I noted that the Ashk - Seph split on this backed up a theory he repeated here. According to Prof Agus, Ta Shma and others [not R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik], because many more Ashkneazim came ultimately from EY, rather than the more predominantly Bavli origins of Sepharadim, we can find a number of minhagei Ashk and liturgical elements sources in the Y-mi or Midrashei Halakhah even when against the Bavli. The Bavli gives two reasons for mayim achronim -- a comparison to watchin before the meal, and thus about taharah, and melach sedomis. The Y-mi only mneitons melach sedomis. Which would explain why Ashk feel free not to wash when no such salt is served, but Seph do not.) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes http://www.aishdas.org/asp exactly the right measure of himself, and Author: Widen Your Tent holds a just balance between what he can - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:16:23 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:16:23 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] women/mlacha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118191623.GB14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:37:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > Anyone aware of any women who do not do mlacha after shkia during the > period between Pesach and Shavuot? Men? (see S"A O"C 493:4) The Be'er Heitev says that for men it's only until one counts. Looks like the usual "don't do your own thing you might forget to do the mitzvah" taqanah (but in minhag form). The AhS (s' 9) "vegam `atah yeish nashim" who keep this minhag. But the minhag was ONLY accepted by women and ONLY until sefirah after maariv. What "after maariv" meant for single women in towns where there multiple times for maariv is beyond me. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The same boiling water http://www.aishdas.org/asp that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Author: Widen Your Tent It's not about the circumstance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but rather what you are made of. From micha at aishdas.org Mon Nov 18 11:29:25 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] spending money on a mitzvah In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191118192925.GC14270@aishdas.org> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 08:39:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > My question is why is this so clearly logical? The usual "hiddur" is in > the mitzvah itself, which in this case would be accomplished with the > better donated wine. In addition, the TC would now have funds to secure > additional mitzvoth (e.g. tzedaka). I can't answer your "in addition", but in general. One Shabbos haGadol derashah R Menachem Zupnik included the idea that it is better to use wine you bought for the four kosos than wine you got for free (for example, in "shalachmanos"). The idea is that this is actually the finer wine, regardless of the taste of the two wines. And therefore, Ashkenazim would choose white wine they bought over red wine they were given. Whereas Sepharadim prioritize color over taste preference, and therefore over this too. Perhaps it's an issue of "Adam rozeh beqav shelo mitish'ah qavim shel chaveiro." (R Kahana, BM 38a) Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From JRich at sibson.com Tue Nov 19 15:40:14 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: <35B73FAF-B266-4A97-980D-07F0F8014233@sibson.com> If one (or a whole community)normally eats sliced apple as part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? Kt Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 04:55:11 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as > part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make > a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for ritual purposes. My understanding is that this is exactly why we are told to have the maror in mind when we say haadamah on the karpas. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Wed Nov 20 13:31:40 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:40 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bracha question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191120213140.GQ29112@aishdas.org> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:55:11AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > R' Joel Rich asked: >> If one (or a whole community) normally eats sliced apple as >> part of the meal (e.g. waldorf salad), would you still make >> a bracha on apple slices dipped in honey after making hamotzi? > You can't compare a food which is accepted as a normal meal-food, with a > non-meal food that happens to be eaten during the meal but specifically for > ritual purposes. To rephased RAM's answer in the terms I was planning to use... (Just because to the way I think, I find the first sentence below a clear summary.) Whether or not a food it part of the meal has little to do with the kind of food, and more with why it is being eaten. Yes, there are rules of thumb. Like assuming fruit during the meal wasn't really as part of the meal - which RJR's example of waldorf salad violates. Just as RAM's (deleted) example of maror defies the norms for why we eat vegetables during the meal. And is a close parallel to the minhag of eating an apple as part of a siman milsa. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 21 08:43:28 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion Message-ID: Please see the article at https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5213 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] The Odd Account of the Overnight Onion ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Interestingly, overnight peeled eggs might actually be permitted according to several authorities, as Rashi (ad loc. s.v. she?avar) when explaining the prohibition omits eggs from the criteria.Additionally, there is some debate among several later poskim about what type of peeled eggs are intended for inclusion in the prohibition - cooked eggs or raw eggs. ohr.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Fri Nov 22 09:11:20 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] "Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me" (by R/Dr Hillel Goldberg) Message-ID: <20191122171120.GA24498@aishdas.org> R Hillel Goldberg wrote The Fire Within, which inspired me to explore Mussar. (And is long out of print.) Dr Hillel Goldberg's PhD thesis became the book, "Israel Salanter, text, structure, idea: the ethics and theology of an early psychologist of the unconscious". Since, RHG inhereted leadership of the Intermountain Jewish News, published in Denver. He once again inspire me week's opinion colum again inspired me, so I'm including it in full. If you like your arti https://www.ijn.com/yes-directly-moses-speaks-to-me/ :-)BBii! -Micha PS: I noticed that K'tav doesn't list that book title with what I think of as "title caps", and I see RHG didn't do so with the article's title either. If someone could explain the rules of these things to me, off list, I would appreciate it. Bcc: Dr Alan Morinis, R/Dr Hillel Goldberg (Since I didn't take the time to reach out to get permission to share their addresses. Assume I will forward them any replies.) Yes, directly, Moses speaks to me [Rabbi Dr] Hillel Goldberg Nov 21, 2019 Columns, Opinion, View from Denver More venerable than the Kaddish, older than the Haggadah, earlier than Chanukah and Purim. A sense of Jewish history connects a Jew to his roots. It can also cloud those roots. Here is what I mean. If we ask, why be Jewish, Jewish history is one answer. There are many variations on the answer, but each one draws a Jew back in time, fostering a feeling of identity with Judaism or the Jewish people. Even so, these answers rarely take us back far enough. Consider the following reasons for connecting to Jewish history: I want to keep my own family customs alive. I do not want the Holocaust to be the end of the Jewish people. I know my passion for social justice comes from Jews always being the underdog. I relish research into my own genealogy. The more I learn about my past, the more I feel connected to it and proud of it, whether I am an Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe or a Sephardi from Spain, Greece or Iraq. I get the chills when I see Israel reborn. I sit in a philosophy class and feel special pride when Maimonides is held up as a major philosopher. I study about Rabbi Akiva, Rashi and the mystics in Safed, and I know I am connected to an eternal people. In the long arc of Jewish history, all of these examples are relatively recent. They are kind of like touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and feeling connected to the American Revolution more than 240 years ago, but then thinking of standing before the Western Wall, some 2,000 years old. As in, 240 years, big deal! I do not mean to discount my feelings of awe and gratitude upon visiting Independence Hall. But compared to Jewish memory, 240 years is a blink. The thing is, we may say the same even for the 2,000 year-old Western Wall, the most powerful, emotional site in Judaism. My sense of Jewish history may cloud just how far back my roots actually stretch. Just as we may skip over the Holocaust and Maimonides and our personal genealogy to reach back so much further to the Western Wall, we may skip back further still. Take, for example, the one topic that occupies the entire, 2,711 folio-page Babylonian Talmud more than any other: "carrying," the prohibition of transferring objects from one domain to another, or of carrying objects within a public domain, on the Sabbath. For those who do not observe this prohibition, I appeal to your intellectual curiosity. Where did this come from? It originates neither with Maimonides nor in the Talmud. It is not from the ancient Holy Temples nor even from the Prophets of Israel (save one). We stretch back not to the Holocaust 75 years ago, not to Maimonides 800 years ago, not to the Western Wall 2,000 years ago, not even to the Prophet Isaiah, some 2,800 years ago. Our roots go all the way back to the first Prophet, Moses, in the Sinai desert after the Exodus. We recall the generation of the desert, of the liberated Hebrew slaves from Egypt, not just in a ritual (the seder), not just as Jewish history, and not just as abstractions ("the beginnings of the Jewish people" or "the inception of the Jewish-Divine covenantal relationship"). No, we recall Moses in the desert for something very specific that was done then and sustained throughout the generations, down to this very next Shabbos. When the Tabernacle was under construction in the desert, as G-d had commanded in the Book of Exodus, our ancestors volunteered the raw materials, the fibers, precious metals and animal skins out of which the Tabernacle was made. One fine day, on a Shabbos, Moses told the entire encampments of the Israelites: Bring no more! Why? Because on Shabbos one is not to transfer from one domain to another; specifically, from the private domain (the Israelites' homes, their tents) to the public domain, the Levite camp, where Moses was stationed and the Tabernacle was to be constructed (Shabbat 96b). Think of this. On the very next Shabbos that I welcome this year -- me, you, here, right now -- if I refrain from carrying an object out of my home, I am under the spiritual canopy of Moses himself, of my people at its very inception. I am a direct link to the Israelite sojourn in the Sinai desert and to one of the first Words embraced in practice after the revelation at Mount Sinai. I am not just connected to my roots. I am living them. Copyright (C) 2019 by the Intermountain Jewish News From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 06:35:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Why do beer and whiskey not require bishul Yisroel (Jewish involvement in the cooking)? Message-ID: >From today's OU Kosher Halacha A. Bishul akum is prohibited when two conditions are met: a) the food cannot be eaten raw and b) the food is worthy of being ?oleh al shulchan melachim? (served at fancy dinners). Beer and whiskey are made from cooked grains, which are not edible in a raw state. Thus, beer and whiskey satisfy the first condition for bishul akum. Nonetheless, Tosfos (AZ 31b: s.v. V?traveihu) writes that beer is not served at fancy dinners and therefore the second requirement for bishul akum is not present. This explanation suffices for beer, but not for whisky, which is served at fancy dinners. However, Tosfos offers a second explanation why beer is exempt from bishul akum. Although beer is made from the five grains, the bracha is Shehakol and not Mezonos because beer is primarily a water-based drink. By the same token, beer does not acquire a status of bishul akum because it is primarily water. Since water is edible in a raw state, it does not require bishul Yisroel. The same rationale applies to whiskey which is a water-based drink, and as such, does not require bishul Yisroel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Nov 26 15:15:56 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:15:56 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav Message-ID: RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did. When a friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush, the Rav began to yell at him saying that this is false. I believe this Rav thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes. However, RSRH, following the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. RSRH writes, "Yet, even if we were incapable of explaining the strange events in this story; even if we were forced to conclude as the Ramban concludes ? , 'Our father Avraham inadvertently committed a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the Land, about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another sin he committed )' ? nevertheless, none of this would perplex us. The Torah does not seek to portray our great men as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: ?Here you have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!? It does not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust. Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: ?Look upon Me! Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!? We are never to say: ?This must be good and right, because so-and-so did it.? The Torah is not an ?anthology of good deeds.? It relates events not because they are necessarily worthy of emulation, but because they took place. Rav Hirsch's essay about the education of Yaakov and Esav may be read at Lessons From Jacob and Esau (Collected Writings VII) There is much wisdom in this essay about education. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zev at sero.name Wed Nov 27 11:50:12 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:50:12 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a > friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav > began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav > thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following > the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to > say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From sholom at aishdas.org Thu Nov 28 06:37:50 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Yitzchok and Rivka Made a Mistake in How the Educated Esav In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <237da176174e2f7bc95386dc5c7b4289@aishdas.org> RZS wrote: > On 26/11/19 6:15 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote: > >> RSRH says that this is why Esav turned out the way he did.? When a >> friend recently told this to a well-known Rav in Flatbush,? the Rav >> began to yell at him saying that this is false.? I believe this Rav >> thinks that the Avos did not make mistakes.? However, RSRH, following >> the Ramban also says that Avraham made a mistake when he told Sarah to >> say she was his sister, and hence endangered her. > > Nu, so RSRH made a mistake. And Ramban, too? And, if so, RYL made a mistake, too -- the same one that R Noson Slifkin made: "rishonim are allowed to say that, but we're not allowed to say that" ;-) Chodesh Tov, everyone. (And Hodu-Day) -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Nov 28 08:57:43 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? Message-ID: I recall being at an Agudah Convention many years ago and being served turkey on Thanksgiving Day! >From https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/6105 [https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg] Thanksgiving: Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? ? Insights into Halacha ? Ohr Somayach Biur HaGr?a (Yoreh Deah 178: end 7) and Gilyon Maharsha (ad loc. 1). The Gr?a is bothered by the fact that the sugya in Sanhedrin seems to imply differently than the views of the Maharik, Ran, and later, the Rema, that a Chok Goyim, even one that is not a Chok Avodah Zarah should still be prohibited. Others who ask this question and conclude tzarich iyun on the Maharik?s shittah include ... ohr.edu >From the article On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a ?holiday? and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving?s origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. See the above URL for much more. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Nov 28 10:31:05 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:31:05 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, other contemporary authorities disagree. Rav Yitzchok Hutner[16] is quoted as maintaining that the establishment of Thanksgiving as an annual holiday that is based on the Christian calendar is, at the very least, closely associated with Avodah Zarah and therefore prohibited. He explains that its annual observance classifies it as a 'holiday' and celebrating Gentile holidays is obviously not permitted. It is well known that Rav Avigdor Miller was a strong proponent of this view as well, as Thanksgiving's origins belay that it was actually established as a religious holiday. ---------------------------------------- But they did celebrate Mother's day? Veteran's day? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 1 09:32:10 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayeitzei Message-ID: <64993E05-F027-4F31-89BE-8D9D0DF924EF@cox.net> I don't know if the following question has ever been asked. Chapter 28, verse 16 states: "Vayikatz Ya'akov mishnaso," And Jacob awoke from his sleep..." Now my question is: if it says "Jacob awoke," then why does it have to say "from his sleep?" Of course it was from his sleep. All it had to say was: "And Jacob awoke.? Further, if you look at verses 11 and 12, it says "...vayishkav bamakom ha-hu. Vayachalom..." "...and he lay down in that place. And he dreamt...? Now why didn't it say: "...and he lay down in that place AND HE SLEPT," and THEN "And he dreamt...?? So in the first instance it says Jacob awoke ?from his sleep? which is redundant and the second example it says he lay down and dreamt. There is should have included (he lay down) AND HE SLEPT and dreamt. You might say that the fact that he dreamt indicated that of course he slept. However, if that?s the case, then the Torah should have been consistent and the first time should just have said ?And Jacob awoke?? I propose the following possible answer: In the first instance, when he had the dream, it was really a prophetic vision and it wasn't an ordinary sleep, hence, the word sleep was omitted. However, after the dream, he slipped into a regular sleep, and therefore it says he "awoke from his sleep.? From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 1 12:04:35 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Bananas are Herbs Message-ID: <20191201200432.GF19738@aishdas.org> This video explains the difference between woody plants (trees and shrubs) and herbaceous plants. Bananas are among the talles herbs. And just what is a bannana "tree"'s "trunk"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMfTkDZlFQ So, the scientific taxonomy and hilkhos berakhos agree on this one. A banana is not peri eitz. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 13:31:46 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 16:31:46 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Thanksgiving Harmless Holiday or Chukos HaGoyim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191202213146.GA29446@aishdas.org> Rav Dovid Lifshitz didn't personally eat turkey because of iffyness of saying it fits the requirement for a kosher species of bird to be backed by a mesorah. Not lekhakhah, but as a personal chumerah. And yet R Dovid celebrated Thanksgiving. (Which was a more common sentiment in the refugee generation.) But he did so with a goose dinner. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Education is not the filling of a bucket, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but the lighting of a fire. Author: Widen Your Tent - W.B. Yeats - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 2 23:35:43 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 02:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Is Thursday Night Chulent Permissible? Message-ID: <20191203073543.GA8739@aishdas.org> I would strongly dis-recommend chulent before Shabbos lunch. (Be glad I am not yours or anyone's poseiq.) Here is my argument against. The Shabbos daytime meal is supposed to be more important than Friday night's meal. One is supposed to save their favorite dishes for lunch. The gemara even mentions chamin as one such food that should be saved! So what is Thu or Fri night chulent? It is taking a food invented for the purpose of contributing to making Shabbos lunch the high point of the week's food and being too impatient to get one's treat to show proper kevod Shabbos. Rashi (Gittin 38b) says that people who make Fri night the greater meal should fear punishment! See also AhS OC 271:9, who finds what he calls a "limmud zekhus" for people who serve their most special foods Fri night -- many of them aren't as enjoyable the next morning. But he says this is why we have kugel and chulent, foods that can remain on the fire all night. After seeing what is said about not saving special food for Shabbos lunch, and chulent is designed to be that special food, and having it Friday night, al achas kamah vekamah serving it before Shabbos altogether! Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The purely righteous do not complain about evil, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but add justice, don't complain about heresy, Author: Widen Your Tent but add faith, don't complain about ignorance, - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but add wisdom. - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar From t613k at mail.aol.com Tue Dec 3 09:31:18 2019 From: t613k at mail.aol.com (Toby Katz) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] R' Osher Katz -- Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna In-Reply-To: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2012938971.5265916.1575351552854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <130117873.1655613.1575394278828@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Friends and Family, I would not normally send out something so personal but my brother-in-law, R' Osher Katz, was diagnosed with cancer three months ago -- Stage 4 -- and he has not yet begun treatment, because, for complicated reasons, he has no insurance and very low income. There is treatment that offers hope of a complete remission but it is unbelievably expensive. We have tried reaching out to many Jewish and secular organizations, so far with little result. My daughter Naomi has created this campaign with The Chesed Fund to raise funds for him to begin treatment. This is literally a matter of pikuach nefesh. Scholarly Rabbi Can't Afford Cancer Treatment | The Chesed Fund PS Many people give anonymously because it's a public site and they don't want their name up there, so I don't know who gives and who doesn't. If you can't afford to give don't worry, don't feel pressured but say a kapitel please for a refuah sheleimah for Osher Eliyahu ben Shayna. --Toby Katz t613k at aol.com From ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 5 11:55:02 2019 From: ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca (Ari Meir Brodsky) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:55:02 +0200 Subject: [Avodah] Tonight (Thursday evening) begin Prayer for Rain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, It's that time of year again, when I know many of you are expecting my annual friendly reminder.... Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily prayers, beginning with Maariv tonight (Thursday evening), December 5, 2019, corresponding to the evening of 8 Kislev, 5780. The phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday shemone esrei, from now until Pesach. [Sephardim replace the entire blessing of ????? with the alternate text beginning ??? ????? - thanks to Prof. Lasker for the reminder.] I encourage everyone to remind friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be in shul at that time. Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do: https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/veten-tal-u-matar/ (Thanks to Russell Levy for suggesting the article.) And it's been raining this evening here in Israel, thank God! Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka, -Ari Meir Brodsky --------------------- Ari M. Brodsky Teaching Fellow Department of Mathematics Bar-Ilan University Ramat-Gan 5290002 ISRAEL ari.brodsky at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Sun Dec 8 07:15:44 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Vayishlach Brotherly Love Message-ID: <52DF2CD4-5DD1-44B6-AAEE-C16FB12F5232@cox.net> One of the most moving scenes in the entire Torah is when Esau and Jacob meet after 20 years. Chapter 33, verse 4, says: "Esau ran toward him, embraced him, fell upon his neck, and kissed him; then they wept." The Netziv points out that all the verbs in this verse are in the first person and refer to Esau. "He ran, he embraced him; hefell upon his neck, he kissed him and they cried." All the verbs are in the (third person) singular, except the last one: "theycried." Both Jacob and Esau cried?such human drama and emotion! They cried. That's the very factor that made their meeting a success. Without both feeling the emotion, neither could feel the emotion. The connection of brothers is a paradigm for the connection of nations. We need each other, and in order to laugh together, we first must cry together. The Netziv goes on to say the day will come when Esau will truly embrace his brother Jacob in honest unadulterated compassion, then both brothers will cry in happiness. May we live to see this day! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micha at aishdas.org Mon Dec 9 09:38:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 12:38:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Balancing Observance and the Interpersonal Message-ID: <20191209173824.GA32478@aishdas.org> By R' Eliezer Eisenberg Teaser: Havolim Thursday, December 05, 2019 Vayeitzei. Reconciling LeChaveiro with LaMakom Overview After Yaakov had a dream where he received nevuas Elokim that told him to leave Lavan, why did he seek Rachel and Leah's advice and consent about leaving? 1. Rav Gifter When your mitzva creates a burden for another person, you have to discuss it with him first. 2. The Shlah, Reb Moshe, and lhbchlch Rav Sternbuch Mitzvos should be done with the understanding that they are Hashem's gifts to us. It is wrong to do them because we have no choice, and consider them to be burdens and hardships that we have to endure. It is important to understand this ourselves, and to explain to everyone involved why the mitzva is so right and so good, in order that they should realize and appreciate that Hashem gave us the mitzva for our to'eles. 3. The Seforno per Reb Chaim Brown Yaakov wasn't asking whether to go. He assumed they would go, but was asking for advice about the best way to go - should he tell Lavan, or sneak away. 4. Abarbanel The Abarbanel says in 28:16, on the story of the Sulam, that Yaakov made the neder because he wasn't sure if his vision was a prophecy or just a dream. This was, he says, Yaakov's first experience with Nevu'ah, so, as was the case with Shmuel Hanavi, he was not sure what had happened. If so, perhaps we can say the same is true here, that Yaakov wasn't be 100% sure whether it was nevu'ah or just a dream. I don't like this approach. It was not the first time, and he certainly knew by then that it was Nevu'ah. 5. RDNJS and ENE, crystallized by a he'ara from Rav Moish Pollack. This event is a perfect example of [baderekh shehadam rotzeh leileikh molikhin oso]. It seems clear that that the tzivui of Hashem was catalyzed by Yaakov's personal choice, by Yaakov's decision to follow this particular path. That being the case, Yaakov was obligated to discuss it with the people whose entire lives were affected by his choice. I really like this explanation because of how well it fits the order of pesukim and shtims with the story of Miriam and Aharon against Moshe. Discussion ... Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too http://www.aishdas.org/asp once you get to know them. Author: Widen Your Tent - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne) - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:45:46 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ??? ??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????: The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it) [X] THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 10 19:47:02 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 03:47:02 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered Message-ID: Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide goes out" N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. Me- it's all about the demographics G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her original drive A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with women's issues.) E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold! Me- troop levels seem dangerously low M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it? E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. Me- see comment above Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. Me- or maybe yes C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic tradition. Me- amen. As in "instant classic" Really now Israel defines our Judaism. Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this] R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. Me- I hope that's true H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. Me- Ger vtoshav? From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 11 12:37:08 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191211203708.GE8671@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together. > [Tur YD 116] ... because it is "qasheh latzara'as". And I think the tzara'as connection is key. Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a spiritual element. > The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) > seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef > [BY OC 173] Pesachim 76b. Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the "davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as. > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since > this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition > got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo > refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it) https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38 Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M. So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam (Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am - Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch From zev at sero.name Thu Dec 12 16:05:33 2019 From: zev at sero.name (Zev Sero) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. -- Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all zev at sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 12 18:52:32 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 02:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating In-Reply-To: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> References: <8875ce92-f7cb-3eaa-d749-c5769aae1537@sero.name> Message-ID: On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: > The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. > Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the > prohibition got extended so far It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. ------------------------- I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. From seinfeld at daasbooks.com Mon Dec 16 08:23:08 2019 From: seinfeld at daasbooks.com (Alexander Seinfeld) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Fish and Meat eating Message-ID: I agree with Joel, not so simple. A few thoughts: 1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we are not meant to follow. 2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat (which only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small fish bones, which could lead to choking. 3. Source: the actual Gemara states: Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig]. Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it bad for odor and davar acher." Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous, rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first - if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor? 4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen: https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/ While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides, this study finds that fattier meat produces more: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/ 5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy (?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like condition. 6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger; therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be understood ? and taught ? as merely customary. Alexander Seinfeld >On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote: >>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. >>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the >>prohibition got extended so far > >It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can >cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together. >------------------------- >I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the >danger >Kt >Joel rich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Tue Dec 17 09:58:00 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:58:00 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival Message-ID: For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/ [https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg] The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish Holidays - ou.org Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ... www.ou.org This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/ YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sholom at aishdas.org Tue Dec 17 14:19:31 2019 From: sholom at aishdas.org (Sholom Simon) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. He starts off with: Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept. Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to ?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal. While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*. Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to the next generation. American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog. He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Wed Dec 18 00:52:11 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:52:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> References: <17FF1799-AA48-4E3E-AC48-41A11AD5F3DA@sibson.com> Message-ID: He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim. See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ (part 1 of two parts). I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article. Kol tuv! -- Sholom ______________________________________________ I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century) THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com Tue Dec 17 19:03:39 2019 From: hmaryles at mail.yahoo.com (Harry Maryles) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus. ... > He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO > intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr > L'Goyim. Here are my thoughts: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1 HM Sent from my iPhone, Shirley. From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:27:57 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:27:57 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] thanksgiving Message-ID: My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back: 1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?) 2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it as such) KT from a dual citizen Joel Rich From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 17 22:29:26 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 06:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them out there? KT Joel Rich From acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com Wed Dec 18 05:32:33 2019 From: acgerstl at mail.hotmail.com (Allen Gerstl) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 13:32:33 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud. As a part of Talmud, Science (Maasei Bereishit) and Metaphysical Philosophy (Maasei Merkavah) involves knowing the works of HKBH with the goal of doing so to become closer to Him through evoking what is ultimately deep love (Ahava) of HKBH and wanting to "partner" with him in also helping the world fulfill His will and achieving such closeness. Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have explained this many times in this treatise. God is near to all who call Him, if they call Him in truth, and turn to Him. He is found by every one who seeks Him, if he always goes towards Him, and never goes astray. ..." This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models in our history. Kol Tuv, Eliyahu Gerstl, Toronto, Canada From micha at aishdas.org Wed Dec 18 14:51:09 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 17:51:09 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 05:19:31PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote: > See > https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/ and part 2: https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world-part-2/ I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. 1. To start with the banal... The "hedgehog" metaphor isn't just about finding your company's strength and running with it. It's also about prioritizing other things out. We use the term all the time at work. We're not writing our own low-latency networking layer because there are people who do that full time. Our hedgehog is trading systems; why waste time doing something ourside that bailiwick -- find the company for whom low latency networking is their hedgehog. So, to really use the idea here would mean to leave learning to the yeshivish, davening to chassidim, go out of kiruv since Chabad does it, and just focus on leOr Goyim. Let everyone do what they do best, and hire out the other jobs to those who do each of those jobs best. Yissachar and Zevulun, but on steroids. The idiom was misused. (Totally irrelevant; it just felt good to get that off my chest.) 2. Second, a movement is a group of people who gather around an Ism, not the other way around. You can't save Mod-O by giving them a different ideal, even one you feel is related to their current one. That's killing one movement by creating a new thing to attract its adherents. Nothing too terrible. After all, the only value in a movement is whether it generates fealty to Torah umitzvos, not as an end in itself. You can't just tell people "here's your new ideal now". (Which is basically the same as RJR's point.) That mod-O crowd would have to buy into this leOr Goyim Ism for themselves. You can't just propose it in a Lehrhaus article. Look how many decades of leadership it took RYBS to put his fingerprint on the Mod-O ideal, and even that was only in the realm of nuance about what "u" means, and what "mada" does. You expect to totally redirect the community without having a rabbi's rabbi at the helm? Then figure out how to fire up a grass roots movement. Because we are not talking about a "hedgehog", we are talking about what idea people should put front-and-center in their life's mission statement. The target here is diaspora Mod-O. This leOr Goyim wouldn't be attractive to somoene living in a Jewish State. Nor to someone who doesn't believe in a Torah-and hashkafah with its openness to participating in general society. But it's not Mod-O's current Ism in any way similar in emphasis or behavior. 3. As for Torah uMada... I wrote here a couple of times that I don't think it speaks well to the masses. First, because RYBS's vision of "mada" really only appeals to the academically inclined. Second, because his "u" is dialectical. Not too many people even know what a neo-Kantian means by dialectic. It's not a synthesis. It is not compartmentalization of two opposites. It's finding meaning in their interplay, without expecting to get to resolution. Can the masses do that with Torah uMadda? Or are the outcome inevitably going to be primarily a population of compromizers and a population of compartmentalizers? TuM thus has the rare problem that imperfect following of this ideal is actually worse than not chasing it at all. Because it gives motive to compromising one's fealty to Torah! TiDE doesn't have these problems, since DE has more to do with being a refined human being as defined by being cultured. High culture, not academic knowledge. And synthesis, not dialetic. The Tzitz Eliezer, in a festschrift for RSRH, described TiDE as a hylomorphism (a tzurah vachomer). That derekh eretz is the substance to which a person is supposed to give Torah's form. AND, TiDE includes much of what R Gil Perl writes about here. But without making it the front-and-center. The idea of Yaft Elokim leYefes veYishkon be'ohalei Sheim is not just that Sheim should benefit from Yefes's yofi, but that Sheim has the job of being the moral and spiritual voice in the partnership. But again, making that aspect of things the centerpiece of the movement would be something new. 4. In terms of defensibility... We are given the whole Torah project in order that we be a "mamlekhes kohanim vegoy qadosh". Hashem introduced maamad Har Sinai with those words. Arguably the Torah is to the Jews as the Jews are supposed to be to the world -- the means of obtaining Devar Hashem. But, aniyei irekha qodmin... How do you make a movement about bringing Hashem's values to non-Jews that doesn't invest more effort in doing the same to our fellow Jews? The dialectic (sorry!) between universalism and Jewish particularlism can't be thrown out the window. Although, Universalism is in now, Jewish particularism being too close to the lately much maligned ideal of nationalism. I am not saying the idea that the Torah can be viewed as a way to make us a priesthood caste to the rest of the world is false. I am just wondering if that way of viewing the Torah can possibly attract people well enough to build a new movement around. And in fact in much of part II, RGP himself spells out reasons why, for which his solutions fall flat to my ear. The Post-Modern era is not one in which the idea of spreading the message to others is going to win adherents. His answer is to sure to brand on LeOr Goyim instead of Or laGoyim, to inform rather than to preach. "My calling is not to convince you of their certitude, but to humbly offer you a glimpse of their beauty." But it is exactly the kind of subtlety that would get lost in the translation to a mass movement. One slides into the other and out of fitting with the times. 5. OTOH, what is exciting many Mod-O Jews today on a spiritual plane is what a famous Jewish Action article (somewhat incorrectly) labeled Neo-Chassidus. A worldview built on the Peiczeza and Nesivos Shalom, Tanya, Bilvavli and the Chalban. With the music of Carlebach and lots of epigrams by Rav Nachman. The opposite direction from reaching out.... Deveiqus. A Me-and-G-d way of viewing Judaism. We even have a similar problem in The Mussar Institute. (Whose audience are "spiritually seeking Jews", primarily from the non-O world.) People are getting so caught up in middah work, the reaching in, that I have a personal agenda to focus on the bein adam lachaveiro part of R Yisrael Salanter's message. Perfection in middos being their maximizing our ability to be givers (REED), to be nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chazkel), leheitiv im hazulas (R Shimon Shkop), etc... Selling an Other-Focused Judaism, even one with a universalist spin, may not be the world's easiest sell. Myself, I would push an Other-Focused Judaism too, but without the deemphasis of ahavas Yisrael in favor of ahavas haberios. And, for that matter, leheitiv im hazulas applies to physical chessed to my wife, family, friends and neighborhood well before the hatavah of teaching the world what the Torah has to offer. My spirituality starts with concern for my stomach and your soul. If only I knew how to make that message attractive in a world where products are made popular by putting the word "I" in front of their names. But that's where my own quest as moved since the days when this list began. Mussar is a good idea, and one I hadn't given up on. But it never was a mass movement, and likely something that requires that much work never could be. But could in theory be practiced by anyone is a Torah based on the idea that Hillel's saying that the whole Torah is "de'alakh sani, lechaverkho lo sa'avid" was means seriously, or that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is a kelal gadol even after you leave the poster behind when you leave the 2nd grade classroom. A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit. If only I knew how to fight those elements of the zeigeist. But then, I am not trying to rebuild an already existing movement. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Nearly all men can stand adversity, http://www.aishdas.org/asp but if you want to test a man's character, Author: Widen Your Tent give him power. - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF -Abraham Lincoln From akivagmiller at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:00 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Cellphones on Shabbos Message-ID: There is currently a thread on Areivim titled "more than one quarter of MO youth admit to using their phones on Shabbos", in which R' Danny Schoemann commented: > And I'm sure on Avoda we've discussed why and how using a phone > is Chillul Shabbos. If not, then maybe we should. I can very easily understand people for whom the temptation is so great that they succumb occasionally or even often. But I don't think that's what you're asking. Are you suggesting that these kids honestly don't realize that using a cell phone on Shabbos is assur? It seems to me: Even the most basic listing of the 39 Melachos is more complicated than is needed for this discussion. A discussion of Kavod Shabbos would also be counterproductive. Just ask them: "You don't turn lights on and off, do you? What the difference between that and everything that lights up on the screen?" Or ask them: "You wouldn't write something with pen and paper, would you? How is texting any different?" I concede that if we wanted to, we could get involved with all sorts of lomdish chakiras to answer those questions. But none will make a nafka mina regarding mutar/assur. They are all d'Oraisa/d'Rabanan distinctions, distracting us from the main point, which is that there is no way to use a cellphone on Shabbos except for legitimate medical needs. Kol hamosif gore'a. Comments? Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com Wed Dec 18 14:37:11 2019 From: jkaplan at tenzerlunin.com (Joseph Kaplan) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 22:37:11 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel Message-ID: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah related): "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23)? Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information about this?? I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers.? Joseph Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com Wed Dec 18 15:29:25 2019 From: rabbiknopf at mail.yahoo.com (Anthony Knopf) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 23:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> Message-ID: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> R. Micha, Thank you for including me on this rich and thoughtful post. Here are my thoughts, responding to some of your points in the order that you made them. - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? Did Chabad always emphasise the outreach which has become their trademark activity? I also wonder if the comparison can be made with the other movements that Rabbi Perl mentioned. Chabad, religious Zionism, Torah Im Derech Eretz and the yeshivah movement were all started by ideological leaders with a particular agenda. Was this so of Modern Orthodoxy? I guess what I'm questioning is whether Modern Orthodoxy is based on some kind of founding ideal and agenda which would be transformed if we were to go the path Rabbi Perl is suggesting. - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development in the Modern Orthodox community. It remains to be seen how much can be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer to is instructive. - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate central concept for the community. - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work you have given to the cause over decades. But doesn't a life commitment to Talmud Torah take work? Doesn't the Chabad shlichus demand self-sacrifice for others? I'm sure there are ways to respond to this, making chilukim, etc. but I am not as inclined to rule out the broad acceptance of an approach to middot, chesed, nosei b'ol, etc in our communities. As you know, I'm working on a conference to set a process in motion. If you don't try, you won't know! Best, Anthony Check out The Rise Together Project at and my website at Rabbi Anthony Knopf From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:58:07 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog In-Reply-To: <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191218225109.GB31723@aishdas.org> <1034477253.1841322.1576711765316@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191222185807.GA18920@aishdas.org> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 9:03pm CST, R Harry Maryles pointed us to his blog post "Of Hedgehogs and Ideology" at written in response to R Gil Perl's two-part essay on The Lerhaus. Responding to RHM's blog post: ... > That said, I do not believe that Modern Orthodoxy should make being an > or LaGoyim its passion no matter how noble it is. In my view it should be > defined the way it is traditionally defined as adhering to the ideology > of Torah U'Madda (TuM). And skipping ahead to his close for a minute: > Does that leave Modern Orthodoxy bereft of the hedgehog concept? > Perhaps. But in my view using a Mitzvah that does not really define what > we are really about in order to excite passion in us will in my view - > not work. I thought of this while responding to a very different conversation on Facebook. Someone advocated a more meiqil approach to halakhah on the grounds that the way O is done is scaring people away. I made two objections: C was only one failed attempt at this approach -- it just doesn't work. People just don't bother conforming to the lower standard. The other objection ended with an on-topic one-liner: You can't save something by redefining it. But it matters less here. We don't really need to save Mod-O as much as maximizing the shemiras Torah umitzvos of people who affiliate Mod-O. So, assuming I thought people would stay with that affiliaiton even as the movement redefined itself, I wouldn't object. But personally, the resulting movement wouldn't be for me. As I see it, halakhah has me prioritize those closer to me ahead of those further -- so immediate family, friends, aniyei iri, etc... and much further down are non-Jews. The triage doesn't fit making providing Kol Yaaqov to the community dialog our highest priority. The other problem is that I already bought into Mussar's adage that "my ruchnius means concern for my soul and your stomach". (Something the pre-War chassidishe rebbe who was the rav of the shtielb of my childhood also regularly said.) When it comes to others, gashmi aid is a higher priority than moral education. Again, a different triage. > Rabbi Perl rejects that. He references R' Norman Lamm who - as he points > out - literally wrote the book on that subject. Rabbi Lamm says that > TuM is not an ideology but rather pedagogy - a means of `arriving at > knowledge of the Creator through the avenues of science and the arts'. > In my view, that is a distinction without a difference. Aren't all > Orthodox Jewish ideologies ultimately about that? YU-style Mod-O is indeed Mod Yeshivish. The RIETS morning is no less a child of Volozhin than Lakewood is. But it's not true that "all Orthodox Jewish ideologies" are about "arriving at knowledge of the Creator". The Rambam would go for that. But chassidishe deveiqus is about having a relationship with the Borei, not learning about him. Knowing G-d, rather than knowing *about* G-d. More on this in a reply REGerstl's email, which became its own thread about the Rambam's notion of life's purpose. ... > Not only that, but TuM need not be studied only by > the elite anymore than Torah should. We each do the best we can with > the capabilities God gave to us to do it. Perhaps if you stick with *should*, but what's the motivator for learning mada for the majority of MO Jews? It's not overtly one of the 613, and the person isn't academic by nature, what's driving that time investment into secular studies. And where in the entire span of secular studies are they to choose among if they don't have a personal drive to pick up academic knowledge? On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:29:25PM +0000, R Anthony Knopf replied to my post, writing: > - Your second point seems to assume that movements can't evolve in their > point of emphasis. Is that necessarily so? ... Evolve is different than reinvent. Theseus's Paradox is a thought experiment about the ship Theseus sailed in stories recorded by Plutarch. During the course of his travels, say a sail tore and was replaced. Is it the same ship? Maybe on the next trip, he replaced the mast. Let's say over the course of his lifetime, every single plank and board in that ship was replaced. Theseus would have had continuous use of a ship, at all times it sure seemed like the same ship, and yet there is nothing in it now that was in the original. Is it the same ship? Identity evolves differently than sudden redefinition. But this is a bit off coarse. We're getting more caught up in whether, if the Mod-O infrastructure and membership would largely go for a leOr Goyim ideology, if they would still be Mod-O or not. Which gets more into the definition of a movement than either issues of right or wrong or of feasibility. I really wanted to focus on feasibility. I don't think MO membership would feel they're on the same ship if this were attempted. And so, it wouldn't work. > - Rabbi Perl clearly wasn't assuming that proposing it in a Lehrhaus > article would create the change. But it has initiated a conversation. > And even if we don't accept his answer, I believe the question is a > powerful one and can lead to meaningful reflection and even development > in the Modern Orthodox community... I think the question of ultimate purpose is a critical one, regardless of who we're talking about. I recently ran a workshop to help people write life- > be achieved without a rabbi's rabbi at the helm but the development of > "Neo-Chassidus" within the Modern Orthodox community that you refer > to is instructive. But it manages to do so without leaving Torah uMada. It seems the Brisker tenor of Mod-Yeshivish a la RYBS is a less deeply held emotional issue. The feeling that we're staying on the same core idea is still there. After all, my youth included some very neo-Chassidus like moments at NCSY kumzeitzin. > - I am more convinced by your later points about the necessity of finding > an idea that is central to our approach to Judaism/life and the > difficulty in justifying giving this centrality to non-Jews rather than > "aniyei ircha". Indeed, I believe that middot, based on the teachings of > Modern Orthodox thinkers and availing itself of the considerable recent > academic work in the study of character, would be a more appropriate > central concept for the community. I do to, but... > - You question whether something requiring so much work could become a > popular movement. This is a sobering thought given how much work > you have given to the cause over decades... > But doesn't a life > commitment to Talmud Torah take work? But then, the learning that has become most popular is daf yomi. You get a feeling of acocmplishment. It's like the difference between a second hand and an hour hand on a watch. The second hand is doing 3,600 times the work, but you can see it working. An hour hand.... Working on middos is slow. There is no "I finished my first mesechta" or "500 blatt" or whatever. You work and you work, and eventually you notice the hour hand is pointing to a new hour when your wife says something about how you've been with the kids lately. And even that is months or years away from then you started. Well, now that I have split my dream into two, I can more easily articulate it. I hope. A central idea for AishDas is to plant the seed of "a vaad in every shul", paralleling the spread of daf Yomi. We had other ideas that we would "get to later", but really the only project we ever invested effort in was the spread of ve'adim. My dream was not that you would have a whole movement of people actively working on their middos. Halevai you could, but as you just noticed, I don't think the masses are ready for years and years of work before seeing signficant results. Character change is slow. Rather, I thought that the existence of those 5-6 people in the va'ad would have secondary effects on the rest of the shul. All the value we're supposed to be giving ehrlachkeit would stay in the discussion. We would be able to see a Yahadus in which how you act on line for the bus is no less a defining feature of who is "one of us" as is what a person eats. More recently, really since I was waiting for the editing of my sefer, I started trying to put another buzzword out there -- Other-Focused Orthodoxy. Because there has to be exploration on how to get to an ehrlachkeit-centered rather than frummkeit-centered observance through ways other than hoping the kind of people AishDas was reaching to would have cultural influence on the kelal. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember; http://www.aishdas.org/asp I do, then I understand." - Confucius Author: Widen Your Tent "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites From micha at aishdas.org Sun Dec 22 10:19:24 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:19:24 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] The Rambam's Hedgehog (was: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191222181924.GA22988@aishdas.org> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:32pm GMT, R Eliyahu Gerstl responded to RGP's thesis: > I would propose that rather than Torah **U**Madah that the Rambam's > concept of Madah as an important part of Torah rather than as an adjunct > to Torah should be considered and that his form of Deveikut should be > considered as the "hedgehog" being sought. > The latter means that Madah is part of "Talmud" (Lehavin davar me-toch > davar) which is the third of the tripartite division of Torah learning: > Tanach, Mishnah (halachah) and Talmud... I don't see two points here in the Rambam, Yesodei haTorah 2:1-3 and Hil' Talmud Torah 1:11. In YhT the Rambam defines ahavas H' and yir'as Hashem in terms of a thirst to know about G-d. Because, as I wrote above (in response to RHM), it seems to me the Rambam defines his "deveiqus" (as REG puts it) as an intellectual unity. "What is the way to love Him and feel yir'ah for Him? When a person contemplates His Actions and His Creations, which are nifla'im gedolim, and sees His Chokhmah in it... immediately he love, praises, glorifies, and mis'aveh ta'avah gedolah ot know the sheim hagadol..." First, in TT 1:11, the shelish betalmud is halachic dialectic -- "... until he knows what are the iqar of the midos [shehaTorah nideshes bahen] and how to extract what is assur and what is mussar, andthe like, from what he studied from the oral tradition." Not aggadita. We do find aggadita included with Mada in YhT 2:2 as the means to ahavas veyir'as Hashem. Different mitzvos than TT. To skip to the end of this post too because I want to respond to it together with the above: > This may in fact be a type of non-mystical Chassidus i.e. focusing > on love of HKBH and wishing to "partner" with Him (an element also of > HIrschianism) but reaching that point of intense love and devotion by > a different route. That is an authentic route taken by many role models > in our history. What neo-Chassidus shows is that the Mod-O Jew is looking for some experiential / emotional Judaism. But in any case, I don't think the Rambam's parallel to deveiqus is a major element in today's hashkafic discourse. Too cerebral, too much aimed only at the academic. I also amnot sure the Rambam's hashkafah was particularly popular among Chazal either. > Please see the Morah Nevuchim 3:54 To me, the core thought of this last pereq of the Moreh is his ranking of the 4 types of perfection the gemara expects of a navi -- wealth, health, intellect and middos. The Rambam flips the last two, not only in the order he presents them, but the Rambam is clear that these are asvending types of perfection. That only intellectual perfection is a permanent refinement of the most core part of the self: The fourth kind of perfection is the true perfection of man: the possession of the highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards God. With this perfection man has obtained his final object; it gives him true human perfection; it remains to him alone; it gives him immortality, and on its account he is called man. Examine the first three kinds of perfection, you will find that, if you possess them, they are not your property, but the property of others; according to the ordinary view, however, they belong to you and to others. But the last kind of perfection is exclusively yours... And as REG also quoted: > ...[T]he perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by > him when he has acquired--as far as this is possible for man--the > knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the > manner in which it influences His creatures in their production > and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will > then be determined always to seek loving-kindness, judgment, > and righteousness, and thus to imitate the ways of God. We have > explained this many times in this treatise. Really, more so than middos and character? And so I thought for decades, until I saw RYBS said differently. Not that I understand how RYBS reaches that concludion, given how much of pereq 54. And the opening chapters of the Moreh about how the eitz hadaas messed up the pursuit of knowledge by introducing precondition steps; the definition of nevu'ah as an overflow from the Active Intellect; 3:18 where he defines a homo sapien's personhood in proportion to their knowledge, so that a person receives hashgachah peratis is proportional to yedi'ah; and 3:51 and the castle garden metaphor at the start of the Moreh's closing section. Really, it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the Moreh Nevuchim. BUT RYBS understands this section of 3:54 as saying that even yedi'ah isn't the end of the human endevor, chesed, mishpat and tzedaqah are. Looking at pereq 53: This chapter encomapsses the meanig of three sheimos that needs explaining: chesed, mitzpat, and tzedaqah. And so on, until: We have shown that "chesed" refers to gemilus chesed gamur, and "tzedaqah" to any good that one does because of the loftiness of middos, to thereby complete one's nefesh, and "mishpat" sometimes has an outcome of neqamah, and sometimes tov. We already epxlained how distant attributes are [from theology][ that any attribute one attributes to the Deity yisbarakh in the books of nevi'im is an attribute of action. ... And then the Rambam returns to this idea later in 54. The navi does not content himself with explaining that the knowledge of G-d is the highest kind of perfection; for if this only had been his intention, he would have said, ... He says, however, that man can only gain praise for himself in the knowledge of G-d and in the knowledge of His "Ways and Attributes", which are His actions, as we have shown (MN 1:54) in expounding the passage, "har'eini na es Kevodekha" (Exod. 38:13). We are thus told in this passage that the Divine acts which ought to be known, and ought to serve as a guide for our actions, are, ch??es, mishpat, antzedaqah." Another very important lesson is taught by the additional phrase, "ba'aretz." It implies a fundamental principle of the Torah; it rejects the theory of those who boldly assert that God's providence does not extend below the sphere of the moon, and that the earth with its contents is abandoned, that "azav H' es ha'aretz" (Yechezqeil 8:12). It teaches, as has been taught by the greatest of all wise men in the words, "Lashem ha'atez umloa'ah" (Shemos 9:29), that His providence extends to the earth in accordance with its nature, in the same manner as it controls the heavens in accordance with their nature.... And so on. So far, all about knowledge of HQBH. Even chesed, tzedaqah umishpat are about knowing *Hashem's* HZu"M, and that there is hashgachah in this world. And then, this: The navi thus, in conclusion, says, "ki ba'eileh chafatzti, ne'um H'" i.e., My object [in saying this] is that you shall practise HZu"M the earth. In a similar manner we have shown (MN 1:54) that the object of the enumeration of H's 13 Middos is the lesson that we should acquire similar attributes and act accordingly. The object of the above passage is therefore to declare, that the perfection, in which man can truly glory, is attained by him when he has acquired -- as far as this is possible for man -- the knowledge of God, the knowledge of His Providence, and of the manner in which it influences His creatures in their production and continued existence. Having acquired this knowledge he will then be determined always to seek HZu"M, and thus to imitate the ways of G-d. We have explained this many times in this treatise. So, the purpose of all this knowledge is to know what to emulate. And yet the perfection of the knowledge is a greater perfection than the perfection of the middos one acquired by emulation? What am I missing? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he http://www.aishdas.org/asp brought an offering. But to bring an offering, Author: Widen Your Tent you must know where to slaughter and what - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv From michaelpoppers at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 16:11:11 2019 From: michaelpoppers at gmail.com (Michael Poppers) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog Message-ID: In Avodah v37n97, one of R'Micha's last thoughts was > A return to the Judaism of aspiring to an ehrlicher Yid, rather than the emphasis on ritual and personal holiness of frumkeit < which brings us back to TiDE and RSRH's Mensch Yisrael. --Michael via phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akivagmiller at gmail.com Mon Dec 23 03:18:37 2019 From: akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:18:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Perceptions Message-ID: R' Joel Rich asked: > What percentage of people would like to know how they are > really viewed by others (vs. maintaining their false self- > image)? Are we failing (ethically? Halachically) by not > telling folks if there are negative perceptions about them > out there? Personally, I would love to know about the things I do that are viewed negatively by others. If I had that information, I could either correct my actions, or I could explain myself to them and thereby improve their views of me, and possibly even improve how *they* act. However, as much as I would like that, I generally do not tell others when I view them negatively. To do so successfully requires a great deal of tact and sensitivity, and experience has shown me that I usually fail when I attempt these things. I believe that this approach is supported by the halachos of Tochacha: attempt to correct people, but first, do no harm. Akiva Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Tue Dec 24 23:14:21 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 07:14:21 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] kiruv Message-ID: From a blog on relations with non-orthodox: We should instead become more involved with them while accepting them as they are. While the ultimate goal is to bring them closer to God, it should be done by example. My response: Perhaps we should stop looking at them as our "cheftza shel mitzvah" (object through which we carry out a mitzvah) and view them as Jewish human beings with a tzelem elokim who we interact with in a manner consistent with the will of HKB"H. If the result is we are mekarev them (as imho it would be if we act this way), great BUT that is not our ultimate goal (much as we don't do mitzvot for reward, it's an ancillary benefit) Your thoughts? KT Joel Rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From llevine at stevens.edu Thu Dec 26 09:42:22 2019 From: llevine at stevens.edu (Prof. L. Levine) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?windows-1252?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=96_A_Torah_View?= Message-ID: https://rabbiefremgoldberg.org/audio_listing/celebrating-birthdays-a-torah-view/ I think that many will be surprised by this talk. There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JRich at sibson.com Thu Dec 26 20:05:48 2019 From: JRich at sibson.com (Rich, Joel) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 04:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Avodah] =?utf-8?q?Celebrating_Birthdays_=E2=80=93_A_Torah_View?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F184740-02E5-426B-85CE-342B8AA10C63@sibson.com> There are opinions that Jews should not celebrate birthdays. Rabbi Efrem Goldberg strongly makes the point that even according to those who say it is OK to celebrate birthdays that the celebration should be on the Hebrew date and not on the secular date. YL ______________________________________________ I gave a shiur on this a number of years back. My main take away was it should be used as an opportunity for reflection, Not A celebration per se Kt Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination, distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmeisner at gmail.com Thu Dec 26 20:07:55 2019 From: jmeisner at gmail.com (Joshua Meisner) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:07:55 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Chanukah and the Jews Living in Bavel In-Reply-To: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> References: <67E3821E-4334-4586-A435-2B70B862EB6A@tenzerlunin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:36 AM Joseph Kaplan via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > ?Prof. Levine posted the following quote about the Jews who went to Bavel > in the time of the Hasmoneans in Areivim 37/102 (I?m replying here in > Avodah because the moderators told me my comment is sufficiently Torah > related): > > "While it seemed like tragedy at the time, these brilliant men, Torah > scholars all, immediately established a Jewish infrastructure upon arrival > in Babylon. A dozen years later when the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who > were exiled to Babylon found there yeshivas, synagogues, kosher butchers, > etc., all the essentials for maintaining a Jewish life. (See Part 23< > https://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/babylonian_exile/>)? > > Prof. Levine?s question arising from the quote was the following: > > ? However, I have never heard that the Jews living in Bavel offered any > assistance to the Jews in EY during the 30 years of the fighting. Surely > the Jews in Bavel must have become aware of what was going on in EY during > this 30 year period. I can only wonder why they did not come to the > assistance of the Jews living in EY. Does anyone have any information > about this?? > > I?m not particularly interested in that question. What I do wonder about > is the quote. More specifically, I wonder how the person who wrote it knows > what he appears to say are historical facts. I looked at the linked article > and the link in that article but I really didn?t find any historical > sources supporting ?Torah scholars all, yeshivas, synagogues, kosher > butchers.? > I assume that the author was taking creative license based on Sanhedrin 38a, which states more generally that the galus of Tzidkiyahu was pushed earlier so that they would arrive while the charash and the masger of the galus of Yechonya were still alive. To address RDYL's question, what would such help have looked like? A brigade of soldiers (or elephants)? A steady stream of volunteers? Massive infusions of gold that could be used to buy modern weaponry on the black market? Considering the distance between Bavel and Eretz Yisroel and the difficulty in traveling between one and the other, this question may have a very modern bias to it. I was going to suggest that the king of Persia may have further objected to any of this assistance leaving his territory, but, according to Wikipedia, the Parthians did not conquer Bavel until shortly after the neis of Chanukah, prior to which it was until the control of the... Seleucids. Hence, the Seleucid governor of Bavel certainly would not have approved of any aid being provided to the rebellion in Eretz Yisroel. Did the decrees against Torah in Eretz Yisroel also apply in Bavel? I've never heard this discussed. More generally, it seems that we (or maybe just I?) know little about the Jews of Bavel during the time period in question. Ezra (and perhaps Zerubavel) left there a couple of centuries earlier, while Nechemya left from and Mordechai and Esther were in Paras. There are a handful of tanna'im called Bavli'im, but the center of the chachmei hamishnah was clearly in Eretz Yisroel. While it's conceivable (although perhaps not likely) that there were direct lines from the yeshivos of the charash and masgeir to the yeshivos of Rav and Shmuel, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was strong religious leadership the whole time that would have coordinated such an assistance drive for the Chashmona'im. Just a few thoughts. A lichtige Chanukah (What's the origin of this phrase, by the way?), Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cantorwolberg at cox.net Mon Dec 30 05:19:42 2019 From: cantorwolberg at cox.net (Cantor Wolberg) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Anti-Semitism is Out of Control Message-ID: <7172577B-31F7-4CA0-B25C-35C37FB57BFF@cox.net> It is imperative to address the rampant anti-Semitism which is on the rise exponentially. Please watch the following (under) 10 minute television interview of former NY Assemblyman Dov Hikind. It is time we realize that the laws of the ?rodef? definitely apply to the anti-Semite. https://www.foxnews.com/media/dov-hikind-hanukkah-stabbing-new-york-anti-semitism From micha at aishdas.org Tue Dec 31 22:03:37 2019 From: micha at aishdas.org (Micha) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 01:03:37 -0500 Subject: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam laChaveiro Message-ID: <588c3f15-5b25-452b-9857-ca858cb7cd12@Michas-iPad> CC: RRYE So, RRYEisenman's recent Short Vort has been making the rounds. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1815470 (Carried as OpEd pieces in both The Yeshiva World and Matzav.) RRYW writes: Op-Ed: Important "Checklist" Of Things To "Bring" To The Siyum Hashas December 31, 2019 11:00 am As the horrifying events of Monsey are still so fresh in our minds, coupled with other over manifestations of anti-Semitism in the New York area, it behooves all of us to rethink our preparations for the great convocation of Jews on Wednesday in Met-Life Stadium. ... Keep in mind that this event is a momentous one for Kavod HaTorah and for Kavod Shomayim. The last-minute items to remember to pack: 1. SMILE a. Most important: remember to bring your best smile with you. ... e. Keep in mind that all of the workers, security people, police, maintenance people, cleaning staff, parking attendants and anyone else working are human beings. f. These are the same human beings who our Sages say about them, "Beloved are human beings, for they was created in the image of Hashem...as it says, "For in the image of G-d, He made human beings". (Genesis 9:6) g. You must smile when you see someone created in the image of Hashem. h. Can you think of any other greater irony than for 100,000 plus people who are the children of Hashem who have come to give honor to Hashem, not recognizing those who are also created in His image? i. Smile, smile and smile more at each and every person you meet. 2. Happy New Year! a. These people are all working on what is to them one of the most important and universally observed holidays: the day which is called New Years Day. b. It is totally irrelevant that these people are also getting paid ... 3. Thank You a. This might be the most important item to remember to bring. ... Most importantly, we have the opportunity to bring Kavod and honor to His Holy name. Note his repeated appeal to bein adam laMaqom (BALM) terms. Smile at a person because he is a tzelem E-lokim and it is part of giving honor to HQBH. Or qiddush hasheim / avoid chillul hasheim. And this theme came up more in discussions of this OpEd on social media. But I have an open question about this strategy that I have been chewing on for years. Maybe people here have opinions. We are dealing with an Orthodoxy which, ba'avonoseinu harabbim, thinks that the Torah is all about bein adam laMaqom. And so, in the short run, it makes sense to sell bein adam lachaveiro by emphasizing the BALM aspects of it -- respecting Hashem by respecting a tzelem E-lokim, and chillul vs. qiddush hasheim. But... I am not sure if I like the message or not. Isn't the road out of this whole mess a realization that "ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha" is the more central principle of the Torah? If we reinforce the idea that it is only "really" against the Torah is it interferes with my relating to the Creator, will we be in the same boat a generation from now? Are we getting people to do the right thing, and atttidue will follow any behaviors we can encourage? Can we create the right habit this way? Or are we reinvorcing the imbalanced attitude, and we'll never get out of this "frumkeit" hole? I have picked up the conundrum repeatedly since starting on my book. I don't have an answer, though. Your thoughts? Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and http://www.aishdas.org/asp this was a great wonder. But it is much more Author: Widen Your Tent wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF "mensch"! -Rav Yisrael Salanter