[Avodah] Paying your workers on time using electronic payments

Micha Berger micha at aishdas.org
Mon Jun 24 08:51:07 PDT 2019

This likely should have remained on the "Credit cards and kinyonim"
subject line since although it's not the same topic, it's clearly a
continuation of the same discussion. Easier to find in the archive
if a discussion sticks to one subject line.

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 06:47:11AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
:                                                  ...
: what if I pay the worker electronically am I yotze the mitzva? ...

: Credit cards
: It seems clear to me that credit cards are not considered cash payments and
: you are not yotze the mitzva for 2 reasons:
: 1. You aren't actually paying. The way credit cards work is that you are
: telling the credit card company to pay the vendor and then they will
: collect from you. Since you are not paying you aren't mekayem the mitzva.

This is not a problem. You are allowed to send your employees to the
chenvani or shulchani to get paid. CM 229:10. As long as they receive
the money on time and agree to the arrangement.

: 2. The vendor doesn't get his money that day. Typically, a payment can
: take anywhere from 24 hours up to three days to process the payment.

Worse, because you can cancel payment during that time (and usually even
later tha money can be clawed back).

The problem I have is that the end of the siman talks about bal talin
only. I do not know if the following applies to the asei too. I would
guess yes, because that's a lot of ink to spend on saying the issur is
"only" the violation of an asei without explicitly pointing it out. But
as I said, that's a guess.

Here's the relevant bit, in s' 9.
If the sakhir knows that the baal habayis usually doesn't have money on
hand until market day, it's not bal talin if he doesn't get paid until
market day. The Rama adds that if the norm is to pay later, it's not
bal talin to pay later.

So I would think that if your vender has a card reader, there is
no problem paying by card.

: Electronic bank transfer
: Here there are a number of issues:
: 1. How does it work? Is it like a credit card where you tell the bank to
: send money and then the bank collects from you or is the bank simply your
: agent to transfer your money to the other person?

The problem is, as RJR implied, the same as fiat money, but more extreme.

When you wire money, money goes from one account to another. The fact
that said money is only represented by bits, rather than slips of paper,
may not change anything. Even if the bill was backed by gold or silver,
you could ask whether it counts as money; fiat currency more so. But
data... why would it be any different than fiat currency?

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 Man is capable of changing the world for the
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   better if possible, and of changing himself for
Author: Widen Your Tent      the better if necessary.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF          - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

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