[Avodah] Should Shiurim be Corrected to Archeological Data

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 08:39:47PM +0100, R Arie Folger wrote:
: 1a) All the shiurim are connected and they are small (Rav Chaim Noe, small
: dirham shiur)
: 1b) All the shiurim are connected and they are large (Noda biYhuda a.k.a.
: Chazon Ish, even though CI himself held like a variant of view #3)

I would have said

(1a) All shiurim are connected and we are sure enough of what they are
to continue making them small.
(1b) All shiurim are connected, we can't make sense of their stated
connections, so we have to end up much more machmir than (1a).


: 2) All shiurim that can be connected to realia are connected to realia even
: if their ration then conflicts with Chazal. I understand that this is the
: AhS RMB is citing.

Well, again, that's my conclusion, and who said I'm right? When I first wrote
about this AhS <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol33/v33n006.shtml#01>, I
wrote, "But then in se'if 34 he says something I do not follow, but key to our discussion." And  am still not sure enough I figured out for the surety you're
crediting me.

What the AhS actually says OC 363:34 is that carrying 4 amos in a reshus
harabbim on Shabbos is 4 of one's own forearms. However, for a mavui,
one cannot use just one person's ammah, so Chazal gave a machmir measure
that would include everyone.

And then he spells out a machloqes about whether that means machmir for each instance, or for each mitzvah. The former leads to inconsistency WRT mavui -- big
amos to the 4 ammos width, but 20 small amos for the height.

Here's a link to the AhS, to tempt people into making sure that
what was a big chiddush to me was what RYME meant.
https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.363.32-35

The AhS opens se'if 34 by saying "lo nitenah haTorah lema'akhei hashareis"
and no two people will end up measuring exactly identically. There is
a limit to the precision halakhah expects of us. And this is what he
is saying in the previous se'ifim, with a margin of +/- 1/48 (1/2 etzba
per ammah). And then 34 continues with this argument about individuals'
arms -- but that's much more than 1/48.

And thus -- don't take my word about peshat in the AhS without checking
yourself!!!


: 3) Some shiurim are connected to realia and some are standardized. This
: view can then split up based on two factors, first of all which are the
: shiurim that are connected to realia and which not (Rav Zalman Koren claims
: that CI held that the kazayit is an exception and is connected to olives,
: but almost all other shiurim are standardized), and secondly whether those
: shiurim that are standardized are small, large or connected by ratio to one
: of the basic realia-based shiurim.

Since the AhS only talks about length where the measure are indeed
anatomical terms, I can't rule this out leshitaso for kezayis, sheqel,
se'ah, beis se'ah, etc...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha at aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter