[Avodah] To Whom Should One Pray At A Tzaddik's Kever?

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 04:59:27PM +0300, Danny Schoemann wrote:
:> I was talking philosophically, not halachically. People have bechirah,
:> and it makes sense to ask a living person for a berakhah. There is more
:> to compare to asking a niftar.

: What does bechirah have to do with asking for a Bracha?

That's a question for the Rambam, as I later said this is mentioned in
his description of the 5th iqar. To quote the translation at
<https://www.mhcny.org/qt/1005.pdf>, adding EMPHASIS:
    The Fifth Fundamental Principle: Only He, blessed be He, is rightfully
    worshipped, magnified, and obeyed. One must not pray to anything
    beneath Him in existence: angels, stars, planets or elements, or
    anything composed of these. ALL OF THEM ARE NATURAL PROCESSES WITHOUT
    SELF-DETERMINATION OR FREE WILL. ONLY GOD IS FREE AND PUISSANT. HENCE,
    WE MUST NOT WORSHIP THOSE POWERS WHICH CAN SERVE ONLY AS MEANS TO
    BRING US NEARER TO HIM. We must think only of Him, leaving to one
    side all else. The fifth fundamental principle has all Biblical
    warning against idolatry as its warrant, in other words, the bulk
    of the Torah.

(Yes, it's pathetic that in 2018, the digest software still can't handle
a more authoritative Hebrew. I am pretty sure it's a misconfiguration,
and not a limitation of the software itself. If I ever get a staycation,
I'll work on it. Unless someone is volunteering...)

It seems that to the Rambam, mal'akhim have no free will because they are
only conduits of His Will. And worshipping anything that only exist to
connect us to Him is the essanece of the Rambam's conception of AZ. As
per his description of Dor Enosh in the Yad.

More balebatish-ly: It makes no sense to make a request of anything from
someone who can't choose whether or not to bestow it. Like asking a rock
not to fall. That's not an explanation as to why it would be assur,
but you asked "what does bechirah have to do with asking for..." and
it does show the two are linked. No bechira = "asking for" is silly.
Unlike making requests of people.

:> Angels and bechirah is a complicated topic. But I believe consensus is
:> that at least while in shamayim, they don't have any or don't have any
:> opportunity to use it.

: OK - completely unfamiliar territory for me.

: But since you mentioned it, the two "Shalom Aleichem" angels are not
: in heaven, they are here in our living room.

To discuss this we have to leave the Rambam. And we saw this issur as
framed by the Rambam. But even though the Rambam grounds the issur in
their lack of free will, that doesn't mean that if we assert they have
free will, the issur goes away.

After all, we could easily see other reasons to prohibit turning to
anyone but the Borei, even if prayer could sway them to help. Again,
the Y-mi Berakhos didn't talk about bechirah.

But then we need to know how to draw the line. Why is asking a mal'akh
assur, and asking a living tzadiq is laudible.  Then we can know which
side of the line a niftar is on.

This is different than the Machnisei Rachamim / Borkhuni leShalom
question, which to my mind revolves more on the content of the request
and why the request doesn't cross the line. Machnisei Rachamim has one
thing going for it: Asking mal'akhim to help you get your tefillos heard
might have a whole different set of theological issues. (Like: why would
H' "need" any such help, he knows every though and utterance?) But it
doesn't run the risk of the mal'akh eclipsing Hashem in one's avodah.


The "at least while in shamayim" piece was RYGB's harmonization of the
notion that mal'akhim have no bechirah while still supporting stories
where mal'akhim sin. E.g. the Benei HaElohim (Elokim?) according to Rashi
on Yuma 67b; and according to Rashi Bereishis 22:4-5 says they failed
in gaavah. And during creation, we have the mal'akhim who chose to make
eitz oseh peri. Meanwhile, the same Rashi says that a mal'akh can only
do one thing when ti comes to having one mission.

If by "have no bechirah" we mean (as per the Or Sameiach and RMF on
Vayeira) that they could have it in principle, but in practice everything
is so clear to them that they have no decisions to be made, then maybe
one can say that once they leave shamayim and enter this olam hafuch,
they could indeed have clouded perception, and thus have choices to make.

It's as good a resolution as any, but people still go on talking about
how mal'akhim have no bechirah and people still tell stories with
apparently disobedient mal'akhim in them.

...
: I would have thought that it would make more sense (as in: Pesukim
: have to be taken literally - ein mikrh yotzeh miday pshuto) that the
: Oral Teachings have to be "twisted and turned" (or discounted) to fit
: in with the Written Torah.
: 
: Why do we do it backward?

Because it's assur. It can't be that the pasuq is porraying Yaaqov here
as doing an issur.

: RMB:
: > The Chizquni refers back to the previous pasuq, where Yaaqov beraklhah
: > begins, "Ha-elokim asher..." and says it's a request to the Borei to have
: > the mal'akh who saves me bless the children. The Netziv gives a variant
: > of the same idea.
: 
: Didn't you just say it was illogical to make requests of something
: that has no bechirah?
: 
: So for us it's illogical, but for HKBH it's sensible? Please explain.

Hashem wouldn't be making His request, He would be programming His robot.

: > The Tur says simply that "mal'akh" is a reference
: > to HQBH.

: So just here? (once again seems backwards - squeezing the psukim to
: fit the "agenda", so to speak.)

He says it here. And again, the "agenda" is to understand how this
tefillah is praiseworthy, given the issur under discussion.

I mentioned the Yaavatz and the Gra (to give a Mar'eh Maqom: Siddur
haGra on Shalom Aleikhem").

Another source: The Maharal (Nesivos Olam, Nesiv haAvodah ch. 12)
asks about Machnisei Rachamam. He has a yeish lomar to make a distinction
between a baqashah and a tzivui. "Ve'im kol zeh hu davar she'ein ra'ui."
Final resolution, we are asking Hashem that the Machnisei Rachamam et al
bring our tefillos to Him.

In the metaphor I gave above, we are asking Hashem to program His robots
to bring rachameinu...

In Ish haHalakhah (pg 45, possibly a primary source of my own attitude,
which was shaped by my upbringing and thus my father) RYBS talks about
the many gedolei Yisrael who skipped
   midas harachamim aleinu hisgalgeli, velifnei QOneikh tenikhanaskha
   hapili...

But again, as I said, I am not a Granik or a Brisker. I am not claiming
this is the pesaq I received or the minhag I inherited. Just noting how
difficult it is to say these things with a kavanah that is mutar. Just
see the Maharal! And so, I am personally scared of getting that close
to a yeihareig ve'al ya'avor if there are shitos that allow me to avoid
it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life is a stage and we are the actors,
micha at aishdas.org        but only some of us have the script.
http://www.aishdas.org               - Rav Menachem Nissel
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