[Avodah] tisha baav

[Eli Turkel]

<< Which brings me to what I think the essence of Tish'ah beAv. Not churban
bayis. In a sense, churban bayis wasn't tragic, as the whole point was to
make the point on eitzim va'avanim and avoid churban Benei Yisrael ch"v.

But the human cost as a consequence of churban bayis has been huge. And
as you note, that's exactly what we talk about. Not the loss of qorbanos,
but the loss of the consequent sheleimus and shalom we could have used
the BHMQ to develop.

Rather than seeing this as a question, I see it as a disproof of your
assumption.  >>

My strong suspicion is that if one were to take a survey asking what we
mourn on tisha baav most people would answer the physical destruction of
the two Temples.

<< he loss of the consequent sheleimus and shalom we could have used the
BHMQ to develop.>>

That is a modern concept Eichah mourns the destruction of the city of
Jerusalem, the killing of its population leading to the exile.

In fact this discussion has "halachic" implications. There are some groups
that downplay the meaning of Tisha Baav since now we have a rebuilt and
vibrant Jerusalem with a Jewish government. Thus, for example some shuls
make changes of one type or another to Nachem.
I am told that even RAL made some small changes claiming that saying the
original version would be a lie today. Again, his changes were very minor
but others suggested major changes

RYBS OTOH pushes the notion that Jerusalem without the Temple is a desolate
city without inhabitants and so he objected to any change in Nachem. It
would seem that according to RYBS it is the destruction of the physical
building that we memorialize and my question is that this is not the thrust
of Eichah.

As to the kinnos there are a variety of them (in addition to sefardi
wants). Even  Ahalah and Ahalivama  stresses the shame we feel  rather than
the physical destruction.
As I mentioned I would have expected to see some equivalent to Mareh Cohen
on Tisha Baav.
Perhaps one exception is the comparison of the exodus from Egypt to the
exile from EY


-- 
Eli Turkel
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